Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@Blackvoid2me said:
I like his skins. But maybe its because i just love the fantasy spaced themed skins alot.
I'm not saying they should stop doing lore-accurate skins altogether, rather they should do more than just lore-accurate skins. More people would be interested in his cosmetics if there was a little more variety.
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@Beaburd said:
Nevermind, being able to charge the perk while an illusion was active was a bug that was just fixed in today's patch.
The Mirrored Illusion perk no longer charges when an Illusion is already active.
Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1djkhi5/802_bugfix_patch/I was reminded of this thread and felt the need to revive it because I think this is a horrible change, and now you're not likely to use it multiple times in a match. The perk is back to having a 3 minute cooldown.
I mean c'mon guys, the perk was bad enough.
Don't kick it when it's down.It's honestly ridiculous that they would fix such a trivial bug. It's a meme perk, there is no benefit to running the perk other than getting to see the killer fall for the illusion.
@Skitten56 said:
It is crazy to me that they would nerf an already niche perk just to stay consistent with with gen perks.
This drive for consistency when it is not needed is really ridiculous. Mirrored Illusion is nothing like Blast Mine or Wire Tap and therefore doesn't need the same exact requirements.
If BHVR is going to make the perk even less useful, BHVR should at least make the illusion use the fixing gen animation when it is active.This is exactly what makes it weird. It's not even close to being in the same tier as Wiretap and Blast Mine. It's basically just a silly meme perk.
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@Raptorrotas said:
OOh the comms cope is unreal. A single "do gens hes on me" (or similar) invalidates the whole "just chatting" argument.
SwSwf are exactly balanced as solo because the devs only balance for "survivor", yet swfs are more likely to use comms. And iirc survs dont want ingame comms, but the results spoonfed as basekit mechanics, which isnt closing the gap but just buffing survivors.
AAnd for gods sake, asym =\= unbalanced. "One strong unit vs many weak unit" and all that. The game wouldnt work at all if a single survivor was equal to the killer.
You do realize you can literally see who's in chase via the HUD now, thus there is no need for that callout right?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742426#Comment_3742426
"People do think every SWF they face is a squad, though, because if they
didn't there wouldn't be people demanding killers be able to opt-out of
playing against SWFs. "That is a false equivalency. People demanding to opt out of SWF does not mean they think they're all squads. People do not think every SWF is a squad. That is a strawman repeated ad nauseam that simply isn't true.
"Casual friends hanging out is not the massive
advantage you think it is. Not since the HUD update. If people wanted a
'fair game', they wouldn't be playing Dead by Daylight. As an Asymm, it
is inherently unfair."Sorry but it is. Casual friends is still a ridiculously large advantage that the game is not balanced around. Saying all unfairness is fine because it's an assym game doesn't really make since as a point for what we're talking about. I could just take any extremely unhealthy and overpowered thing that has existed in the game in the past that needed to be removed and just say, "oh yeah it's actually fine because this is an assym game so unfairness is baked into it". Don't like insta mori's on first down? Hey that unfairness is what an assym is so it should stay in the game.
As you can see that wouldn't be a rational point for me to make.
"If people didn't like playing against someone with an unfair advantage,
there would be no survivors. Killer, by default, has an unfair advantage
over the survivors in that they are faster."That's another false statement. Killer being faster does not equate to an unfair advantage. It's just an advantage. Survivor has their own advantages to counter that. You are comparing things as oranges to oranges when they are not.
What makes something an unfair advantage vs just an advantage is if the game does not have an equivalent counter balance of advantage on the other side to compensate. IE "counter play" you could say.
That is a false equivalency. People demanding to opt out of SWF does not mean they think they're all squads. People do not think every SWF is a squad. That is a strawman repeated ad nauseam that simply isn't true.
It isn't a strawman when it's true. If they didn't think that every SWF is a squad, then why would they blame their losses on SWF? Surely they'd blame their losses on their own lack of skill. That just doesn't happen, though, and any time there's a discussion about SWF it's always that every SWF is a squad, and out to bully the killer without exception.
Sorry but it is. Casual friends is still a ridiculously large advantage that the game is not balanced around.
Let's break it down, shall we?
- Casual friends hanging out get to know each other's perks
- Casual friends hanging out have the potential to coordinate
- Casual friends hanging out share information
Given that casual friends hanging out aren't coordinating, often play altruistically, and the only information they're sharing is who the killer is, if they're in chase, and if they're getting the rescue. That leaves us with knowing each other's perks. The top 10 perks according to Nightlight don't have any sort of coordination requirement to get value.
That leaves us with perks like Head On, Saboteur, Background Player, Breakout, etc. All of which have a less than 5% usage rate. The statistics simply do not reflect this "massive advantage". SWFs are more likely to pick perks that are beneficial for the team as a whole than perks that are only beneficial for them. So, rather than running Resilience, they're more likely to run Prove Thyself.
So, that massive advantage isn't so massive after all. It's a very neglible advantage.
Saying all unfairness is fine because it's an assym game doesn't really make since as a point for what we're talking about.
Not the point I was making. The point I was making is that unfairness is part of the game, and if people wanted a fair game, they would be playing a game that prioritizes skill expression above everything else instead of a game that prioritizes stacking advantages to win.
Don't like insta mori's on first down? Hey that unfairness is what an assym is so it should stay in the game.
Extreme example, but I'll bite. What makes Insta Mori's on first down unfair? The killer will always inevitably catch the survivor. There is nothing the survivor can do to play around this. SWF, however, is not nearly the same thing. Unless they're playing like they're Seal Team 6, their overall skill level is not going to be much higher than that of a team comprised entirely of solo's. In some cases, they're actually worse.
That's another false statement. Killer being faster does not equate to an unfair advantage. It's just an advantage. Survivor has their own advantages to counter that. You are comparing things as oranges to oranges when they are not. What makes something an unfair advantage vs just an advantage is if the game does not have an equivalent counter balance of advantage on the other side to compensate. IE "counter play" you could say.
So then you would agree that SWF is not an unfair advantage, then. Since, you know, it does have counterplay. There's nothing you can do against an optimal team, which is true, but that's not all SWFs now is it? Just like there's nothing anyone can do against a 9000 hour god-tier Nurse, it doesn't mean that applies to every single killer, now does it?
At some point, the community is going to have to come to terms with the reality that SWFs are not escaping significantly more than their solo counterparts, except at high MMR; which the game isn't balanced around anyway and there's really no reason to desire to be high MMR.
Do you want me to list all the issues with going with simply kill rates and nothing else?
Disconnects are not counted. Matches in which there was a DC are not included in the data for kill rates. That leaves with hook suicides. If kill rates average 60%, and Nightlight has recorded 654,884 games, then you would need hook suicides to account for at minimum 10% of those statistics to make a significant difference. That's 65,488 games. That's 16,372 survivors, and if there was a hook suicide in every single one of those games, that's 4093 hook suicides.
That would put the kill rate at 50% average rather than 60% average, but then we'd have to make an assumption about the outcome of those games. Would the survivors have escaped had someone not given up on hook? If so, how many would have escaped? If a 1k is a loss, a 2k a draw, 3k and 4k a win, then a 50% kill rate means killers are averaging a 2k rather than a 3k, yet the statistics from Nightlight show that killers are getting a 4k on average 30% of the time.
So either SWFs are not the big bad boogyman the community thinks they are, or the data is wrong. I think we know the answer is far more likely to be the former rather than the latter, especially since MMR differences are not nearly so extreme that low MMR survivors will ever be placed against the likes of Tru3, Hens, Otzdarva, Tofu, Ohmwrecker, etc.
A 1400 average survivor group might be matched against a 1550 average killer under extreme circumstances such as a long wait time, or excessive lobby dodging, but it's highly unlikely that a 1400 average will be matched against a 1800 average. The difference is far more likely to be within the +/- 50 point range.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742426#Comment_3742426
That fully depends on your definition of the exploit... If we define as things like running outside of the map, like people did it in garden of joy to hold the game hostage, then of course they should be banned... Are we talking about going down in a place where they cannot get hooked then ofc not... I would not even say that that's an exploit to begin with.
The faster speed gets evened out by the faster window vault on survivor side, as well as the smaller hitbox and the ability to drop and Vault pallets... I would therefore not say the faster movements peed alone is unfair... Just because something is not exactly the same does not mean it is not fair.
Most likely... When you sit in a voice chat with your friends you tend to talk about everything, unless you are playing ranked and want to win... But since this game has nothing to gain out of winning, as you don't even see your MMR, I don't think it falls under the same category as ranked modes in other games.
Well, personally I see exploits as an oversight of play testing. It never made any sense for there to not be a hook in the RPD Library, for instance, and it is part of a playtester's job to deliberately break the game.
I don't think we need to go as far as banning people for using things like Out of Bounds exploits to "hold the game hostage", seeing as even Overwatch doesn't do that. I'm not sure if it's still possible, but if it is there are a few workarounds. One is to teleport players who are outside the playable area back into the playable area. The other is to automatically kill any survivor who is outside the playable area.
The point I was making in regards to how killers are faster than survivors is that Dead by Daylight has elements that are inherently unfair. Such is the nature of the game, after all. Killer has elements that are inherently unfair for survivors, and survivor has elements that are inherently unfair for killer. It's not a bad thing, by any means.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742392#Comment_3742392
But you said the game is balanced. So solo queue should be fine. All metrics of the game should be fun to play given balance.
And anyone found exploiting should be banned right?
Again, as I already explained, fun and balance are two different things and a more balanced game isn't necessarily a more fun game.
No, players who abuse exploits shouldn't be banned. That would kill the player base.
@Blueberry said:
There is no recent hate of SWF, people have hated facing SWF since its creation. People also don't think every SWF they face is "squad". People tend to strawman that a lot. Even just "casual friends hanging out" is a massive advantage. People don't like playing against someone that has an unfair advantage, they want a fair game. Against SWF, even a casual one, it's not a fair game.
There is plenty of recent hate for SWF, on here at least. People do think every SWF they face is a squad, though, because if they didn't there wouldn't be people demanding killers be able to opt-out of playing against SWFs.
Casual friends hanging out is not the massive advantage you think it is. Not since the HUD update. If people wanted a 'fair game', they wouldn't be playing Dead by Daylight. As an Asymm, it is inherently unfair.
If people didn't like playing against someone with an unfair advantage, there would be no survivors. Killer, by default, has an unfair advantage over the survivors in that they are faster.
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741635#Comment_3741635
This sums up the issues with SWF really well. Yeah, being in SWF doesn't necessarily mean the survivors are great at looping and extending chases, but the communication and coordination provide and insane advantage vs. everyone playing solo. Anyone who denies this is not being honest. SWF effectively get a bunch of free perks, on top of the 4 perks that they bring into the match. And killers get no compensation of free perks or anything else on their end.
I would argue that anyone who exaggerates the advantage of communication and coordination has only ever played optimally.
People who play casually are not:
- Tracking the killer's location
- Coordinating their perks
- Coordinating where they go down
- Tracking everyone's location
- Using an established callout system
For the most part, they're talking about things that aren't even related to the game. So, no, SWFs are not getting a bunch of free perks. They have the potential to, but then they wouldn't be casual players anymore. Killers do not need compensation for playing against SWFs, least of all free perks.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741766#Comment_3741766
Oh it is, is it? That why its so much fun in solo queue.
Fun has nothing to do with balance. The SoloQ experience isn't something that can entirely be solved by balance changes.
@Oh_deer said:
here's the reason i think SWF are bad for the game.
because killers get balanced around SWF.
and i play the game mostly as a solo queue survivor.
i've played over 100 matches of killer during the anniversary event and only lost 1 game to a 4 man tournament team. no draws.
that's what it takes right now for a good killer to lose a match in this game.
There's no evidence to support that. Killers are balanced primarily around kill rates and how strong, or weak, their powers feel.
@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742372#Comment_3742372
Wel they normally have to balance i mean "fix" bugs tthat get exploited by swfs, rpd boil over etc,
Everyone was exploiting that. It didn't matter if they were solo or SWF. Any bug that can give a player an advantage will be exploited once it becomes well-known.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742037#Comment_3742037
You mean those "stats" they provided once without any evidence, those "stats" that basically say "the game is balanced and the devs are doing a pretty good job so far", the "stats" that contradict with general experience of most players, those stats, right?
The game is arguably more balanced than it has ever been. Kill rates are at an average of 60% while escape rates are at an average of 40% with the only outlier being High MMR 4-man SWFs with an escape rate of 48%. I'd imagine the only thing stopping that number from being higher is how strong tunneling is as a strategy.
The stats are pretty close to Nightlight where the lowest kill rate is Singularity on 50%, and that's just from 652,234 games. Imagine how much more accurate that data could be if everyone, worldwide, recorded their match results.
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@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742011#Comment_3742011
you can't without killing soloq unless the fundamentally rework the game and personally i don't see swf as a problem
It's pointless to engage in any discussions surrounding SWF with that person. They're the same person who refuses to believe the official stats released by BHVR because they don't see the evidence of those stats (completely ignoring how they'd need access to match results for every game to find an average)
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741646#Comment_3741646
Imagine ignoring 95% of everything I wrote considering I just told you my SWF (with 3 new people) can win often if we choose too and the fact that we dont use clock callouts but still there is extreme info.
You can not discount my points just because YOU don’t play that way. You have no idea what the majority of people do honestly, so you are making huge blanket statements with zero evidence.
I’m telling you why SWFs are hated and that is the reason why and it’s not debatable lmao, that’s literally why they are hated., insane information and coordination, even mediocre SWFs can let each other know to start holding W key which is hell for any killer to go against.
- You don't use clock callouts but you still have an established callout system for tracking the killer.
- You tell your friends what items and perks to run, then say that it isn't fun.
- You make a point of ensuring that you coordinate your every move.
- You can always win if you choose to, except against Blight, Nurse, Plague
Mayhaps you haven't realized it yet, but you're not playing casually. Also, having a few hundred hours is not being "almost brand new" to Dead by Daylight. I can make blanket statements about the majority of SWFs because we have official statistics that show that the overall escape rate for solos, duos, trios, and 4-mans aren't significantly higher. In fact, duos had a lower escape rate than solos did.
The only actual outlier in the data is High MMR groups who have a 48% escape rate, which stems from information sharing and coordinating. The reality is that most just don't do that, and that isn't why they play together.
There is a distinct difference between something that is OP, and something that has the potential to be OP. SWF has the potential to be OP, but most SWFs are casual players who care more about a fun experience than they do about winning and optimizing every aspect of their gameplay.
I discounted your points because they aren't representative of the majority of SWFs, and because your play style is indicative of high MMR strategies.
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@Akumos said:
You're already not being honest in the OP if you think anyone is talking about casual duos when they whine about sweaty SWF groups
That's kind of the point my guy. The hate towards SWFs isn't aimed specifically at these sweaty SWF groups; it's aimed at all SWFs. It doesn't matter if they're a casual duo, or a sweaty 4-man, as far as people are concerned SWF is too strong because coordination and information sharing.
It's one thing to say "4-man SWFs are too strong, and should have restrictions on duplicate perks and items." It's another to say "SWFs is unfair and killers should be allowed to see who's in a SWF so they can choose if they want to play against them."
The entire point of this thread is to address the fact that the hatred is unjustified for the most part, and that most SWFs are, in fact, playing casually. That not every SWF is a 4-man bully squad.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741718#Comment_3741718
It isn''t balanced on any metric, and swfs only add to it.
But it is though. Just because the balance isn't to your satisfaction, doesn't mean the game isn't balanced. Your personal dislike of SWFs doesn't make the game any less balanced.
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@Ginnypig said:
8 years iss not really recently, its the unfair advantages swf have opposed to the killer. They have dozens of perks for "free", can neglect the entire point of a game (Not healing, calling out, stealthbuilds are useless etc..)
SWF is unfair for the game and playing against one sshould rewards you in extra bloodpoints
Once you've played for long enough, you get dozens of perks for free thanks to experience. High MMR sweats are not the norm for most players. SWF is far from being unfair.
@Barbarossa2020 said:
Easiest and only fix i can see, is just to limit perks that can be used in games
Put perks into classes: chase/regression/survival,aura, whatever then just limit how many you can take, for everyone.
If its a swf add limits to the group. If its a 4 man say 2 of X 3 of X and 2 of X
Adjust the numbers however, but we all know that swfs are the main reason we never have any balance.
The main reason we "never have any balance" is because the game isn't balanced top-down. It's balanced bottom-up. If you don't like that, there is no shortage of games that balance top-down and reward skill expression above everything else.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741635#Comment_3741635
I think top-level SWF can get win streaks even vs Nurse and Blight. Especially blight. Blight has no chance right now vs them with current nerfs. Wesker also has no chance either. Ayrun has shown that you can gen-rush killer in 4 minutes. there is just no shot your getting more then 5 hooks as killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741616#Comment_3741616
I think, if we're being honest, the difference between SWF and Solo Queue is having reliable teammates. With a SWF, you know how each person in the group plays and are able to compensate for each other's weaknesses.
i don't agree. i think my teammates when they do not not d/c in soloq are very reliable. SWF advantage is macro game efficiency and extra perk slots. The extra perk slots allow you to make some incretible good perk synergies as SWF. A large majority of survivors according to Nightlight are stuck using Window of Opportunity and Bond. Imagine if they could use different perks slots.
I would imagine that they could, but choose to use those perks because a large amount of survivor perks just aren't that good. Bond isn't even top 10 according to Nightlight. Windows will always be a solid perk choice regardless of being in a SWF or Solo. It shows you what pallets and vaults are where, which can be invaluable for anyone who's competent in chase, but hasn't memorized every possible tile spawn.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
Imagine having a permanent 24 meter killer instinct placed on you at all times. SWFs are incredibly strong for that reason, me and my friends aren’t that great considering 3 of them are almost brand new and I only have a few hundred hours on survivor but we constantly win whenever we choose to. Unless of course it’s Nurse, Blight, Plague or Wesker.
The killer has essentially no element of surprise at all because me and the others constantly call out their almost exact locations and what direction they are heading. Easily letting a teammate across the map know the killer is going for them so they can hide behind a wall and not be found.Not to mention coordinating all our perks and calling out when and where we are going down and so on. I guarantee if Nurse and Blight didn’t exist, survivors could easily get a 1,000 plus escape streak. I can have my friends bring the best tool box in the game with double charges all running BTL, SW, SB and Scav or Resil and we can win pretty much anytime we want. S Tier killers permitting and item counts permitting. But it’s just not very fun.
Tl; Dr: SWFs are OP because of the insane info and coordination capabilities, and could win more often if they played super sweaty
Imagine taking the most extreme example and calling that the norm. I acknowledge the existence of people who play like that, but that's not your casual SWF. Hens plays like that when he does SWF. His group is all about clock callouts, but even without that, the players are all extremely good individually.
You will always find people on the extreme end of the scale who choose to play in a way that is competitive. The overwhelming majority of DBD's player base is casual. They have no interest in meta. Even when UB+DS+DH+BT was the meta, there was still a large amount of players who didn't care about the meta and just played how they wanted to play.
Your TL;DR that SWFs are OP because of the insane info and coordination capabilities discounts the fact that most just don't care to play that way. It also discounts the fact that not everyone has 3 friends to play with. Some people only have one friend to play with, and they may not feel comfortable playing with strangers to make up the difference.
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@Nazzzak said:
I think the best thing to do is show in endgame which players were in a swf. Because I don't think people get swfs as often as they think they do and that might be the best wake up call.
Oh absolutely. It's likely that people get more solos than they think they do. It's not as though every solo player barely knows how to play the game, after all.
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@Chaogod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739978#Comment_3739978
Honestly I think making Chaos Shuffle the main way and only way outside of other events to play the game might be one way around that. Then balance doesn't matter because it's all whatever. I have a feeling the class thing they are introducing with the new 2v8 mode might be a way for them to test the waters on getting rid of perks for survivors at the very least.
Id say just do classes for survivors (runner, saver, healer, fixer, etc) then for killers just bake their perks into their main kits or expand on their abilities. Just make their perks work with their general game plan or do a similar approach with them as well.
As far as gen rushing, the above would solve the problem for the most part if classes are limited to one or there is no fixer. Cuz ultimately I think to really solve the gen rush vs gen slow down is to purge the game of it, rework the affiliated perks and that's it. Might have to scale up kicks and repair speed to accommodate. But perks for both sides just permotes really boring gameplay.
The problem with a class system in Dead by Daylight is that killers can just ignore the runner, and focus on eliminating the fixer.
You can never solve the genrush problem, because there's a difference between a perceived genrush and an actual genrush.
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Plague, Kate, Ghostie.
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It wouldn't be very balanced. Look at it like this: With four perk slots, you have to really consider what your four perks are going to be. Adding even just one more perk slot means that you can take three regression perks plus two perks of your choice.
If we go by Nightlight, that would be Pop, Pain Res, Lethal, BBQ, and Corrupt. With four perk slots, you have to weigh your options more carefully. Do you bring Corrupt for the early game slowdown, or do you bring BBQ to determine survivors' locations after hooking someone?
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@Yharwick said:
I feel like all the "X side is ruining the event" threads are proof that a "casual mode" would be a disaster. We literally have queues for the regular mode and a fun event mode running concurrently and there's not really any difference in how people play between the two.
It's almost like everyone predicted this would happen. Objectively, why did Chaos Shuffle work? Because neither side could choose their perks. You had to work with what you got. It didn't work simply because it was an alternate queue to the standard one, it was the random perks that made it work.
Casual and Competitive are, and always will be, two very different audiences with very different ideas of fun.
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It seems it still escapes the grasp of some people here that if killers could see SWFs in the lobby, they would opt not to play against them.
Take for instance if survivors could see who the killer is before the trial begins. How many do you think would opt out of playing against Nurse, simply because there's every possibility they'll be a 9000 hour god nurse that never misses?
We know for a fact that not everyone who plays Nurse is a 9000 hour god Nurse. Some are just playing Nurse for a daily ritual. Do those people just not deserve to play the game? Because they would either never get games or only face meta sweats, if survivors could see them prior to the commencement of the trial.
I'd argue that the majority here would say those players still deserve to be able to play the game. So then why do we assume that every SWF is a 4-man bully squad running full meta builds?
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That seems like a fine idea.
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Sorry but I just don't see how this is a good idea. Healing and Generators are two entirely different things. Survivors can only get infinite resets if the killer isn't hooking them.
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@Junylar said:
SWF: broadcasting killer's coordinates and action every tick, coordinating every step, keeping track of every gen and every pallet state, sharing info about every important object on the map
SoloQ: expected to be happy and content with just a few basic commands.
To be honest, it's worse than doing nothing, because if they implement it, they will be done with buffing soloQ for another 5 years while replying to every criticism something in the lines of "well, we already gave you those basic useless commands, why are you still not happy?"
SWF: broadcasting killer's coordinates and action every tick, coordinating every step, keeping track of every gen and every pallet state, sharing info about every important object on the map
Very few SWFs do this, and those that do are 4-man's who've worked out a system prior to the start of the match.
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They do play the game, but their priorities are not high MMR.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736938#Comment_3736938
because mage hand was terrible and tons of ptb clips anyway your just radical survivor only main im ignoring your biased takes
Radical survivor only main? I play killer, and started out as a killer main. Mage Hand wasn't bad in the PTB, it was just the cooldown being 50 seconds, the movement speed upon casting spells being 2.3m/s, and the movement speed when selecting spells being 3.68m/s instead of 4.0m/s
Vecna was very clunky in the PTB, which they fixed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736908#Comment_3736908
So why is my SWF experience like a series of escapes? So you understand, my friends and I very rarely play. Next time I'll probably see them during the event. The rest of the time, everyone goes about their own business, plays solo, as an killer, or even plays another game. We're not some play-by-play tournament squad. We have some crazy ideas when someone wants to sabotage, blind, or check out the spider buff in the basement. All we say is "go save" or "the killer is on me".
But for some reason, most of the killers can’t do anything to us. It's literally like annihilation, where Legion with the regression meta is DC from the game. What's wrong with this equation?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736933#Comment_3736933
While I rarely play Killer, I did start out as a killer main and I have played a lot against SWFs. A 2k is not the best you can hope for, but you do need to be more attentive as killer. Even if I'm mid-chase, I will drop the chase if I see another survivor working on a nearby generator. Unlike solos, SWFs typically aren't pressured simply by your terror radius.To defeat SWF you literally have to become a monster who knows no mercy. Play as if your life depended on it. Ruining the lives of many solo players in the process. In fact, it’s a terribly tedious task that not everyone can handle.
Well, the question here is rather who remains on the side of the killers in the long term. Certainly not fans of hooks, which they are diligently trying to remove from the game with various nerfs. Those people, for example, who took one or two regression metas so as not to feel obligated to ruin the life of the first survivor by tunneling.
Competitive people will remain on the side of the killer. They have long been accustomed to overcoming all the difficulties of fate. Of course, they will play on Weskers, Billys and other killers that are competitive in the current balance. And if they were injured by SWF while playing on a weaker killer (Trapper), they will tunnel on 5 generators of the first survivor.
This is literally locking yourself in a jar with spiders, which brings the most sad games.
On my own behalf, I will say that DBD has strengthened me in terms of character, but I am not the killer with whom survivors will want to play when I want to win. I'm literally what's left to play with the survivors. This will be the Doctor with a mixed or pure slug. A Wraith with a possessed build based on Play with Your Food. It’s either a game of hooks, depending on your luck, or I tunnel my obsession to death, then I make myself a new obsession. On the remaining killers, you can build a tunnel of two surviving Friends 'til the End, Alien Instinct and Nemesis, since the one who was saved from the hook will not run far. Well, and other peculiar builds.
To defeat SWF you literally have to become a monster who knows no mercy. Play as if your life depended on it. Ruining the lives of many solo players in the process. In fact, it’s a terribly tedious task that not everyone can handle.
You literally don't though. Maybe at high MMR, yes, but not everyone is striving for that.
Well, the question here is rather who remains on the side of the killers in the long term. Certainly not fans of hooks, which they are diligently trying to remove from the game with various nerfs. Those people, for example, who took one or two regression metas so as not to feel obligated to ruin the life of the first survivor by tunneling.
Except killers will run 4 regression perks and still tunnel.
When I play killer, I don't tunnel, run off-meta perks and play off-meta killers. I either walk away with a 2k, or a 4k, and I'm okay with that because it's not about how many kills you get; it's about how much fun you had.
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@Cali88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735528#Comment_3735528
^
Pop/pain res eating a third of a gen in mere seconds in conjunction were too impactful and deserved to be toned down. At this point we need to await more basekit buffs to C tier killers (more traps able to be carried on Trapper, a Myers revamp etc) for increased variety, which might be on the horizon given the most recent Bubba buffs
Being a licensed killer, it's highly unlikely Myers will get a rework. It really depends on how much freedom BHVR has with the license.
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FOTD is fine. Mage Hand getting nerfed isn't a big deal. It was buffed right out the gates alongside all the other buffs Vecna got to make his spells less clunky to use.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736082#Comment_3736082
To consistently win as a survivor, you don’t need to be a tournament player. Just follow simple rules.
1 In any unclear situation, repair the generator and always repair the generator separately.
2 If you don't repair the generator, take mans the killer.
Survivor gameplay is so simple when everyone is busy fixing the generator that most killers can't do anything about that situation. Just pure mathematics at work. You cannot defeat mathematics if you are not Nurse, which denies all the laws of existence.
I'm speaking from the perspective of having played SWF. Until 2023, I was a pure solo survivor. Survivors with friends are like the Tyranids from one universe, where you literally confront a hive mind that is capable of hitting three places at once while the fourth takes on the killer.
(Is SWF truly the big bad boogeyman, or is it just that killers perceive them as the big bad boogeyman because they can't admit they might not be as good as they think they are?)Maybe it's time to check to see which of us is right. At least for a week, introduce the solo mode that I mentioned above? The killer is guaranteed 4 solo players, but will be severely punished in case of camping, tunneling and slugging? Mayby it will be as popular as the mode with random perks.
Understand, I don’t want easy games, but fair games. I agree to significant buffs for solo survivors if they give me 4 solo players. It will also improve my games as a solo player.
You have to understand if we don't start trying to do experiments as a test. This long-term war between us and them will continue. I guarantee you. That solo survivor will continue to be a miserable role due to the ever-threat of SWF. After all, you have to pay for everything. This is the law of balance of the universe. For you to be able to play with your friends, someone has to get hurt. In this case, a solo player.
The long term war between us and them will always continue so long as there are sides to be chosen. Overwatch has 3 distinct roles, and people still pull Us vs Them crap all the time.
If you aren't doing anything other than sitting on gens, it means there's a skill mismatch between the swf and the killer. Either chases went on for too long, or the killer wasn't good at defending gens.
It's naïve to think that killers would go easy if they knew they weren't facing a SWF. People like to pretend that's the case, but at the end of the day it's about winning or losing. For most, winning is what's fun and losing isn't fun.
@[Deleted User] said:
That's what I'm talking about. Evil in its truest form that condemns killers and solo survivors to suffering.
Today I was going to play SWF. The three of us usually play as the killer or solo player most of the time. Pain and suffering are on the killer's side, where the maximum he can hope for is one or two kills.
The most important thing is that the killer will not even be able to prove when checking the lobby that we are playing SWF. Because we have different friends and platforms. This is what SWF advocates usually keep quiet about.
How can such a light regime be defended?
While I rarely play Killer, I did start out as a killer main and I have played a lot against SWFs. A 2k is not the best you can hope for, but you do need to be more attentive as killer. Even if I'm mid-chase, I will drop the chase if I see another survivor working on a nearby generator. Unlike solos, SWFs typically aren't pressured simply by your terror radius.
Dead by Daylight would probably benefit from a replay system where you could review your gameplay footage and see where you went wrong.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736253#Comment_3736253
BHVR is incredibly biased in survivors favor and bends over backwards to placate them.
Main survivor complaint hasn't been taken seriously in 8 years, no killer loses more than they win, new survivor perks average to no value or even negative value...
But one killer getting a slap on the wrist after hitting 70% kill rate is proof of 'incredible bias in favour of survivors'.
Peak DBD forums.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736342#Comment_3736342
He already got like ten buffs.
"B-but any nerf to Mage Hand will immediately dumpster Vecna!"
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I rarely play killer, but when I do I don't have anyone immediately giving up. I main Plague, so survivors are generally pretty quick on the uptake.
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@UndeddJester said:
As times gone on, I've come to be quite glad console has no end game chat. Whether you get dunked on or you dunk, you never have the drama, and the temptation to take the bait isn't there.
It sad to miss out on the nice messages, but usually when you let someone go, the in game behaviour such as giving a little wave with an m1, or a little nod, says all you need to say, and is the reward in of itself.
If I had fun and make it to the exit line, I'll turn around and gift the killer my item.
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@Alexlotlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736346#Comment_3736346
You missed everything in this post. Try again
All I'm seeing is a bunch of whining from people who act like Vecna's going straight to D-Tier over what is basically a nothing nerf.
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Can we stop acting like the nerf to Mage Hand is gutting Vecna? The time to lift a pallet is going from 0.35s to 0.50s. Hardly a massive nerf. They buffed Vecna straight out the gates, and while the spell cooldown and recovery times were necessary buffs, I don't think anyone was having a problem with Mage Hand at 0.50s
Vecna will still be strong. Mage Hand will still be strong. Something everyone here seems to forget is that this is the first killer who, for all intents and purposes, has 4 abilities in one. FOTD may not be great as a ranged attack, but it's very good for zoning. Fly is great for traversal and catch-up, and you can use it to go over pallets and vaults. Very useful in scenarios where there's a god pallet. Dispelling Sphere means you don't need to rely on aura reading perks to find survivors. Mage Hand, as we know, is a very strong anti-loop ability.
With all that, it'd be very hard to make Vecna lower than an A-Tier killer unless you made using his spells clunky like it was in the PTB.
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@CrypticGirl said:
Again with bringing up the nerf to Mage Hand without any context as to where in the world BHVR announced that this nerf was happening…
It was announced here on the forum. I don't have the post, but it's going from 16m down to 14m. They're also reverting the buff it got, putting it back to 0.50s instead of 0.35s. They're also changing the haste add-on.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736024#Comment_3736024
This is precisely my point i am making though.
If it is true, that SWFS would only face meta-slave killers, or wouldn't get matches because killer would lobby dodge, would that not indicate a problem that SWF is maybe too strong?
No, because there is a distinct difference between how players perceive SWFs, and how an average SWF actually plays.
Most people hear SWFs, and the first thing that comes to mind is a 4-man bully squad. Nobody ever thinks about the duo that's running perks like Blast Mine, Botany Knowledge, Self Care, and Off the Record that's just playing the game normally.
Nobody, not even for a second, considers that a SWF could just be two people who share a brain cell and end up bodyblocking each other at killer shack, or one misses a skill check, which starts a chain reaction of missing skill checks and laughing about how dumb they are for it.
That's the reality of an average SWF. Does that sound like something that could be considered too strong? I'd find it hard to believe if you were to say yes.
You can't nerf SWFs without it being viewed as punishing people for playing with their friends, and you can't give killers the liberty to cherry pick their lobbies lest they decide they'd rather play against solos than run the risk of encountering the stereotypical SWF.
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@[Deleted User] said:
It's amazing how much survivors like to downplay their advantages. Why are survivors always afraid to call a spade a spade?
SWF is literally an easy game mode.
I also started playing survivor with friends around 2023, after which I felt the difference between the agony of solo. Unlike others, I at least have the courage to admit the extent of the imbalances that have SWF.
Each game is almost always dominance over killers, where the maximum he can count on is one or two kill. The most important thing is that all we do with SWF is hold M1. Usually this is enough to win. No fancy tactics, simple repair of one generator by one person.
I will say even more, I know how to make SWF look like ordinary solo players during the killer lobby. The killer will not even understand that he was playing with another SWF until it is too late.
This is not an us versus them issue. Because in this game there were always three sides to the conflict. SWF, solo survivors and killers. Only two sides of the conflict could be happy in the game. Usually these are survivors with friends and killers. Solo players simply suffer for the SWF, accepting the news of the anger of the killers. The solo player is the sacrificial lamb that is sacrificed for balance.
When were SWF and solo players happy back in 2020. We lost the old rank system.
I just want a fair solo mode where you can play fun builds and have a chance of winning by distributing hooks. To this end, I agree to many solo player buffs in case of protecting him from camping, tunneling and slug. And so as not to offend the SWF. I'm ready to give them all the Nurses, campers and tunnelers who play the game as if their lives depended on it.
It's amazing how much survivors like to downplay their advantages. Why are survivors always afraid to call a spade a spade?
They aren't.
SWF is literally an easy game mode.
Except it isn't. As you've so clearly pointed out, you don't do anything particularly special aside from holding M1 on generators. That indicates that there's a mismatch in skill level between your group and the killer. Either chases went on for too long, or the killer didn't defend their gens.
The more people play, the more they fall into bad habits. They rely too heavily on regression perks, or they rely too heavily on camping/slugging/tunneling for pressure.
Is SWF truly the big bad boogeyman, or is it just that killers perceive them as the big bad boogeyman because they can't admit they might not be as good as they think they are?
Is that Nurse who 4k'd a 5000 hour Nurse main, or is it just that Survivors don't play against Nurse nearly as much as they do other killers and thus aren't as good against Nurse as they believe they should be?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735993#Comment_3735993
It is slow now. When it used to heal at half speed it was effective since instead of wasting 2 survivors time it only took 1 and that was a good trade off. Now in its current form it is a terrible perk. Wish they had never killer it..would be nice to see again in a useful format.
Self Care being too slow right now is precisely why people either don't use it, or they use it with Botany Knowledge.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735590#Comment_3735590
Where in anything did i write did i say "being in a SWF guarantees a win".
Being in a SWF statistically increases your chances of winning, period, end of story. Thus there is a clear advantage to being in a SWF vs not. So why is killer not allowed to see that before the game starts?
You didn't, nor did I say that you did. It was a statement, not meant to be interpreted as a direct response to what you were saying.
The advantage of being in a swf is having reliable teammates. That's not something that has anything to do with game balance. SoloQ players are notorious for playing badly or selfishly, and that's not something you can really change. They're either a team player or they aren't.
Why should killers be allowed to cherry pick their matches? Especially when there will always be a scapegoat they can blame their losses on. If it's not SWFs, it's P100's, and if it's not P100's, it's M1 Killers are too weak, and if it's not that then it'll be that survivors genrushed, so on and so forth. This isn't even unique to Dead by Daylight. It happens in every competitive PvP game.
Swfs would either only face meta-slave killers, or they just wouldn't get matches. Killers would lobby dodge, every time. It wouldn't matter if the SWFs had 5 hours played, or 5000 hours played. They'd still be a SWF and the killer would still choose to lobby dodge.
Sure, a system could be added that punishes killers for lobby dodging but then you're just forcing them to play against swfs anyway. The games in which they're forced to play against swfs they'd probably just afk.
So, no, there isn't a balance issue with SWFs. There will always be outliers where you run into extremely coordinated SWFs, but most SWFs just aren't like that nor do they have any interest in it.
I believe that sufficiently answers your question.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735508#Comment_3735508
Agreed 👍 nerfing self care was a mistake. It is a hugely helpful perk especially for new players and I was sad to see it go
It's not just a hugely helpful perk for newcomers, but it's also an excellent perk for slowing down the game. Survivors aren't going to do things other than gens if the time investment is too much, or the payoff isn't worth the time investment.
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@Slavslovak said:
its just too funny to me. why are nurse and blight allowed to outperform anyway? chucky got changed next is vecna they are not allowed to be good?
Vecna's still going to be good after the nerf. There's not a whole lot of difference between 0.35s and 0.50s.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735750#Comment_3735750
I'm always dubious about pulling stuff from Nightlight.
It's player provided, which opens the door for cherry picking what they upload. Is only in English so it'll lack a global view completely, which explains perk usage differences like Self Care. Chances are players interested in posting their trials like that are likely much more competitive than the average casual players that are the bulk of the playerbase. And I highly doubt the consoles mess around with it at all, who again make up most of the playerbase. It's just a guide sorta, despite being all we got out there to look at.
I am too, but if someone doesn't want to believe the official stats BHVR puts out and calls them unverified, then perhaps they might consider Nightlight's stats to be verified.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735604#Comment_3735604
That is, after all, how the game is designed. It's not designed for you
to 4k every single game, and you will get harder opponents the more you
win.That's the point I'm talking about: when I win - it's usually against soloQ, when I lose - it's usually against SWF. We are not talking about survivor vs killer here, we are talking about SWF vs soloQ.
Now you want BHVR to nerf your stronger opponents so you can compete at a level you're not up to? That doesn't make sense
So you finally acknowledge that SWF are the "stronger opponent"?
And you refuse to accept BHVRs stats, yet expect your own experience to hold more weight
I never said anything about my own experience having more weight in general, all I said is that one should not use as an argument some unconfirmed "stats" from a clearly biased party (devs providing a few unconfirmed numbers once in 2 years showing that the game is balanced and the devs do a good job).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735611#Comment_3735611
Lately mostly Nurse and Wraith, but it's common for all killers I ever play: SWFs perform better than soloQ by an order of magnitude, unless they just intentionally goof around.
SWFs do perform better than SoloQ, but it's not because of comms. The reason is that SoloQ players are only held accountable by themselves. SWFs are held accountable by their friends.
The reason I asked about the killers you play is because you doubt the official stats released by BHVR. Over 1976 games, Wraith's kill rate according to Nightlight.gg is 59.77%.
That's over a 28 day period from May 10 2024 - June 7 2024.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735605#Comment_3735605
Thing is when one guy throws like that, chances that the remaining 3 survivors will also get sacrificed increase even if they do their best to survive. I'm not saying that all 4 just run to hook and feed but technically it will still count as 4k, even though it's only 1 guy who suicided intentionally ( aka 1k legit ), the other 3 count as collateral victims.
Yes, but is it happening nearly enough on a global scale to contribute in a significant capacity to the overall kill rate? That's the million bloodpoint question.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735594#Comment_3735594
Those are "stats" provided by BHVR in an attempt to calm down the community and prove that the game is balanced. Not a single evidence of those 43% escape rate has been provided since. In my killer games I wipe the floor with soloQ survivors and can only hope for 2 kills against SWFs, producing a few gallons of sweat in the process, but usually it's just 1k, and it correlates with experience of other killer players. Wherever they pulled that 43% escape rate from, it's nowhere near what can be observed in praxis, so until someone actually gathers stats with evidence instead of just drawing pictures with numbers, it's pointless to talk about "stats", especially about those provided by BHVR.
What killer do you play?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735569#Comment_3735569
Well, I witnessed myself numerous times playing as survivor where people would intentionally throw themselves at killer and in the post-game chat they would first insult the killer player for whatever reason they found legit and brag that now killer will get nerfed because their kill rate stats would go too high. While I would expect some people would be doing this for such reasons, more often it happens unintentionally as survivor player wants to move to the next game because of bad start which I'm pretty sure counts as a kill which then contributes to the kill rate values.
It counts as a kill, yes. I'm not denying that what you're saying happens, because it does. It just doesn't happen nearly enough on average on a global scale to have any noticable impact on kill rates.
As a reference, Nightlight.gg has kill rates per killer across a combined total of 54,386 games. Now, if we assume the average kill rate is 60% then that's 32,631 games. A 1% contribution is 326. That's how many games in which at least one person always gives up to have any meaningful contribution to that stat, and even 1% isn't very significant.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735475#Comment_3735475
My point is, if it is a fact that there is an advantage to playing with a SWF than without, then lets address the OP. Why can't killers get to see what they are going against so they can decide if they want to opt into a harder game simply because they are against a team on coms despite the fact that the game is CLEARLY balanced around survivors having a lack of information. Given that so many survivor perks just give you information about what your teammates are doing.
Because being in a SWF doesn't guarantee a win. Having an advantage doesn't guarantee a win. The game is no longer balanced around survivors having a lack of information. Just look at the UI changes that were made to give Solo Queue more information and aid in their decision-making process.
Why should we needlessly punish SWFs, simply because games against them are harder than they are against the mixed bag that is SoloQ?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735525#Comment_3735525
I'm more inclined to believe it's regional differences of MM. Perhaps you are not getting this many griefers on your end.
I get plenty, especially if I play as survivor. As killer, it's less often experience.
It's certainly possible, but it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to inflate kill rates since the stats we're given are a global representation rather than strictly one region.
I'm in the OCE Region, I play every night from 9:30pm to 2:30am and games as killer are almost always an uphill struggle. Games as survivor feel just as rough, killers almost always tunnel at 5 gens.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735509#Comment_3735509
If you need an objective proof for that then you clearly haven't played enough. Things like this happen on daily basis, just play few extra games.
My 1500 hours of playtime beg to differ, and all you're saying is that you have no objective proof other than your own anecdotal experience. I play several hours a day, and I know for a fact that very few survivors actually give up on their first down. In my 1500 hours of playing, I've seen someone give up on their first down less than 15 times.
Your suggestion that it's happening anywhere near enough to inflate kill rates is rather incredulous.
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I used to think that Unknown was OP, but then I played him for 10 games and struggled to get even a single kill. I understand now why he's mostly treated as an M1 killer that can teleport around the map. UVX just isn't very strong.