Lexidoll
Lexidoll
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767846#Comment_3767846
Killer perks get nerfed for high usage rates/being too strong, as do survivor perks. It depends on the perk's function. Ruin, for example, passively regressing generators that aren't actively being worked on is far stronger than WoO, which shows you pallets and vaults.
If WoO is so problematic, why don't killers run Hex: The Third Seal? Several killers have blindness add-ons, so you could even get away with not having to sacrifice a perk slot. Could even run Hex: Blood Favor.
If killer perks get nerfed for high usage rates why hasn't WoO been nerfed yet for the same reason. it's been the most used perk in the game for multiple chapters. dead hard had to get a 50% usage rate before they """""nerfed"""" it.
What year are you playing the game in where ruin is stronger than WoO? the undying ruin meta? like 2019? maybe even the og ruin where it made you regress the gen with good skillchecks? you might want to use your time machine for something more productive.
Assuming you aren't a time traveller, which has some worrying implications for that take. ruin is going to get cleansed within the first 30 seconds because someone spawned on top of it and if it doesn't it will after a survivor realizes it's active and then realizes because ruin is being used that means the killer doesn't have any gen kicking perks. and the list of perks that could be using is narrowed and if they are using a gen kicking perk with ruin, not cleansing ruin actually turns ruin against the killer.
I love the "counter x perk by running niche weird barely useful perk" yeah man, go counter pre nerf pain res dead man switch by running calm spirit, it's an easy counter just use calm spirit. because that's a great idea for the game's health. railroad players into using specific perks to counter problematic perks that people don't enjoy going against by just making them have to dedicate part of their build to deal with 1 potential perk they *could* go against. -
@Volcz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767859#Comment_3767859
So I'm going to address your entire post in points.
- So you say Weave + Franklins is not a problem. But I ask you this; if survivors were able to dismiss/disable your killer add-ons + get aura to see where you are, would you not have a problem with it?
- Most people don't just go around a corner and drop the item, b/c (you know this) they don't know its in play yet. Once its in play and realized by the survivors, its too late. That isn't healthy gameplay b/c if we knew what perks a killer was running like Franklins + Weave, we wouldn't even bother running an item in the first place.
- Distortion counters aura. If you rely on aura and you come across someone or multiple people running Distortion, why shouldn't they punish you? Also please explain how WoO limits your build.
- I can't speak for all new players but I've seen many times, people come into these forums asking about what specific character to get since they are new to the game. The general consensus is Kate is 1 of the best to unlock b/c of WoO. And she isn't exactly locked behind anything special, besides currency.
- My reasoning is a lot better than yours. You are actually trying to defend Weave + Franklins which completely negates items while giving killers a huge advantage b/c people want to use the items they bring in. WoO is used for a variety of reasons, by newcomers and veterans alike.
- We don't want a cooldown b/c its not needed. That simple. You guys tried the same thing with Distortion, pretending it was for 'game health reasons', talking about how the 1 person on the team w/ Distortion would get the other teammates tunneled/given more pressure (when in reality, it probably caused killers to lose games b/c they couldnt rely on aura).
- Many content creators as well as experienced killers disagree with you. A lot of killer mains have extreme egos and will never admit fault in their gameplay. The actual good killers, don't really care about WoO. Its a useful perk for survivors but it does not = a won game.
- They DID say weave + franks is a problem. But that if you're gonna sit and defend WoO saying it shouldn't need a nerf neither does whatever flavour of the month high pickrate killer perk is being complained about.
- I don't understand this point, of course it wouldn't be good if players knew what the opposing side is using because they'd always try to counter it or DC if they don't like it. The point scythe was trying to make was that a killer combo that gives similar value to WoO requires multiple perks, doesn't have nearly as much consistent value as WoO and unlike WoO can be countered without needing to bring a perk, say like distortion. Also "We" heavily implies you don't play killer and don't understand why WoO is so unfathomably annoying and boring to go against as a non anti-chase killer.
- Distortion is boring to play against and again, doesn't have a counter unless you're playing a stealth killer or scratched myers and just eat all their stacks. Scythe explained that WoO limits killers because, it artificially lengthens chases with low skill players and as a result gens will have more time to be worked on, meaning you HAVE to bring more anti gen or player a killer that has strong 1 v 1 powers.
- telling new players to go unlock a perk that stunts their learning of the game because they'll always just be running to the yellow aura holding W and never actually learning tiles or where stuff can spawn is terrible, snake eating it's own tail logic.
And even then giving WoO a 30 second cooldown after a fast vault wont stop new players from being able to use it to find a nearby pallet but will stop players from using the perk as an actual easy mode for the game. - see above, they didn't defend weave. they said if you're defending WoO then weave shouldn't be nerfed either because they both do similar things except one requires more effort, doesn't provide constant value and can be countered without perks or addons.
Also no, your "reasoning" isn't good. it's just you avoiding outright saying it makes the game easier, which you effectively did.
Which is the EXACT reason it's a problem, it raises the skill floor so high that even a fresh install could just run to the yellow and press space bar, repeat and do well. That is a problem, especially as playing killer against that feels genuinely awful, there's no skill involved, no thought process, only holding W. You either drop chase when they drop some decent pallets or lose 3 gens trying to get them on an unsafe pallet to down them. - again "we" implies you don't play killer and don't understand why it sucks to play against, you can't see the value WoO has from survivor perspective unless you're running it, you've predropped 5 pallets in a row, got hit at an LT wall and then get downed at an unsafe loop from bloodlust and then 3 gens pop and you loudly exclaim: "Baby Killer"
Again, this "we" explains also why you don't find distortion to be a problem either. the fun of playing killer is getting into chases, the point of distortion is to avoid getting into a chase and rewards you with more protection if you don't get into a chase, letting you sit on your gen until it's completed after the killer came looking for you 3 times and couldn't find you because you're hiding behind a rock at the edge of the map with urban evasion. - again, wrong. scythe even had a reference to JRM making fun of the perks overuse, and "good" killers are playing killers that have decent anti loop and don't really care about if a survivor knows where every pallet on the map is at all times, because
A: they're playing nurse.
B: they're playing a ranged killer and will just hit them over the pallet or before they get to it.
C: they're playing pre nerf blight.
D: they're playing a killer that insta breaks pallets.
And even then it doesn't change the fact that WoO is holding up a decent % of survive rates, that has no doubt resulted in killer buffs. If WoO got reverted to have it's old cooldown, it's use rate wouldn't drop but the survival rate of those using it would drop instantly because you can't just hold W from yellow to yellow for the entire game. they'll actually have to use their brains to know where they're going.
The fact of the matter is that WoO is DBD's own easy mode, and there's no way it remaining unchanged at the highest pickrate in the entire game because it's an easy mode is acceptable.
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WoO isn't just unhealthy, as I've said in a post I made ages ago, it's actively ruining the balance of the game because it extends chases, especially if the players you're chasing would have no idea where they should be running without it.
which in turn makes gens go "faster" because it's taking longer for killers to catch survivors that are holding W from yellow aura to yellow aura with zero thought or skill.
That's the other awful part of WoO, it enhances THE most boring part of dbd for killer. Holding W. and even worse you can't deadzone a player with WoO because they can literally see there's nothing to use, so they'll avoid that area.
If you only play survivor you wont notice it but as killer, you'll find that half the time you're chasing a player who is ONLY looking forward and consistently making it to pallets hidden behind walls again, and again. it's insanely unfun and baffles me why it's the currently most used perk in the game and has remained unchanged since they buffed it a year or two ago. meanwhile killer perks routinely get nerfed for high pick rates because they're unfun to go against as survivor. Can we, for the love of god have some consistency there.
It should be reverted to have it's old cooldown. or go on cooldown after you fast vault with it like other perks, dance with me, quick and quiet. etc. -
Says the mode long time players have been asking for, for years. "it's horrendous" doesn't elaborate. wonderful feedback.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721107#Comment_3721107
A. because we should not nerf perks based on usage rates B. A major part of the perk is that it is supposed to be a help for beginners in learning new maps and C. it effectively does not give you much what you could not already have known if you a) were a more experienced player or b) were in a swf with comms where you could have known which tiles got used to begin with.
The difference is that Windows is a great soloq perk and nerfing it for that would be ridiculous.
In what reality should we not nerf perks based on usage rate. if a perk is overused that means it's outperforming perks less used than it, like for example pain res dead mans.
If it had a cooldown new players would have a better time learning maps because they'd have to actually pay attention to where the yellow auras are before it goes on cooldown. Instead of what we have right now which is hold W autopilot the perk.
and no, being an experienced player doesn't give you the ability to see pallets and windows through walls in areas you've not been to yet. or see that the pallet on the long wall is gone without having seen someone else already use it.
and even if you're in a SWF unless your in a tourney you're not getting clock callouts for pallet drops. -
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721095#Comment_3721095
Could be, I don't remember how it used to be back then.
Why does it make the game dull? Isn't the chase interaction at tiles the reason why we play the game? I mean sure many things in this game inflate skill and make people last longer in chase despite them having no reason to do so base on their skill. I mean sure, it is kind of stupid that people don't put thought into, but I don't think the perk needs to change, because its main effects are still healthy, and that some bad players appear better than they are because of it is not reason enough to diminish the good effects it has. If they are really as bad as you think they are you will get the hit regardless, whether there is a tile or not.
As the last thing I said on my post, if the devs are nerfing a 9% usage rate killer perk because it gives them too much extra time. why aren't we nerfing a perk with 35% usage rate that does the same thing but for survivor.
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@Cypherius said:
Imagine for a second if every match you get into doesn't have a weak link, if every single match you get into every survivor knows EXACTLY where to run to the next resource
Windows only gives information. It does not tell survivors how to mindgame or optimize their pathing. Nor does it tell them how to chain loops properly.
This is probably one of the single most frustrating things for me in the game right now, a clearly low skill player never looking back, only holding W, running me for a whole gen just because they know they will make it to the next yellow aura before I can hit them
These types of survivors are very easy to Mindgame , hit with M2s or just zone away from strong tiles. They are also very wasteful with resources. If you are consistently losing to WoO users then you are misjudging their skill level. Or need to improve at killer.
Also Its not a problem to lose 1 or 2 gens at the beginning since survivors have finite resources and once you get your first down you start to build up pressure.
The "low skill" player is doing you a favor by wasting pallets like this while a better survivor would have gotten more time out of each of those pallets.
And the knock on effect of gens getting done "faster" because chases are artificially being extended, is killers will bring more and more gen slowdown, play killers that have anti chase / anti loop and generally play sweatier and sweatier, which makes survivors play sweatier and sweatier with no end in sight.
This naturally happens in any multiplayer versus game. People that care about winning tend to optimize their playstyles. WoO is not responsible for this. Players looking to tryhard and play sweaty are not going to use WoO very often. Even less likely if they are in a SwF.
It doesn't need to tell bad survivors how to mind game, if they reach a pallet or window they extend the chase. Yes I know you can mindgame them, I said that but that's not the point. the point is windows lets bad players extend their chases without even having to know where pallets and windows are because it just tells them, through walls.
Sugma man, I didn't say I was losing to windows players, thanks for instantly assuming that. I'm saying windows isn't fun to go against because it lets low skill players extend chases well beyond what they should be able to, and bold of you to assume I'd even have an "m2", if i'm playing trapper, pig or hell even xeno to an extent. it doesn't matter what my M2 is, if i'm not playing wesker, nurse or any anti chase killer. my M2 isn't going to stop people from running yellow aura to yellow aura.
And yeah, I'm aware bad players waste pallets, but if you read what I said, even if you create deadzones the other WoO players will avoid those deadzones because they know a pallet isn't there. they will ONLY run to a place where they can see a pallet, or a window, they won't think they will just hold W.
And cool yeah, people get sweatier, again aware of that. but A: this game having an MMR system at all isn't healthy. and B: WoO is making this worse because it's sending low skill players into high skill lobbies because they're getting longer chases and thus escapes that they'll end up in matches where they're going to get slammed and be a useless teammate for the survivors and just frustrating to go against for the killer. -
@Lixadonna said:
Don't you worry. It will be Nerfed. The Devs have shown a penchant to listening to Killer Mains for Balance advice. Because you know 60% Kill Ratio is top priority to anything else.
? the most recent update nerfs the top 4 most used killer perks, blight was gutted and wesker finally had his hinderance nerfed and old DS was brought back. WoO has been like this for actual years. What do you mean the devs only listen to killer mains.
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@DetectiveDuckMain said:
Honestly… I believe they shouldn't change it. it's a good, balanced perk for new survivors and that's it. Why are people getting mad over new survivors in solo q learning how to actually play the game?
Because they aren't learning anything, They're holding W to the yellow aura repeatedly and it's working.
re-adding it's original cooldown isn't going to stop people from learning maps. it's going to stop people from exclusively relying on it to artificially raise their skill.
And even people not in SoloQ see use in it because your average SWF teammates aren't going to relay every pallet drop.
And in that case, it's even stronger. -
We need to pick just 1 or 2 of the alt versions of the map and remove the rest or give each variant something to make it stand out besides just being a different layout.
The map also features a lot of strong tiles, namely the buildings that can absolutely waste a killers time, the two story building is a nightmare unless you take the time to break both walls and even then the upstairs pallet can be painful with the windows leading out of it.
"hell house" can consistently spawn with the back window open next to a breakable wall, meaning it's incredibly strong and often combos right into another window directly next to it which often itself can lead into another strong tile depending on the layout you get and which realm variant you get.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498065#Comment_3498065
Right, it's a game not marriage. If you change your mind, you don't need to hire a lawyer. There's already a feature in place that's called Disconnect where you can eat a penalty and leave the game instantly.
If a survivor isn't actively contributing to advancing the game (aka AFK at hook, AFK in a corner, chasing killer to get killed etc.) then that should be reportable as well. Let's toss it all under one umbrella and make the reports require video evidence. There you go, each case can be inspected individually.
"I should be able to leave any game I don't like penalty free with no regard for anyone else's time" This entitlement is unreal.
Your sense entitlement is unreal. People don't have to play against you if they don't want to. The only reason the DC penalty is there is because people would mass DC the nanosecond they went against nurse and behaviour is incapable of seeing their mistakes so we got the penalty instead.
If people aren't enjoying playing against you. they're within their right to give you the free win.
And if you want killing yourself on first hook to be "bannable" then so should tunnelling people off hook. because functionally it's the same thing of removing 1 person from the game too early and leaving the rest of the survivors with no odds of escaping.
But of course "tunnelling is a valid strategy" and if you think that. so is dying as fast as possible "a valid strategy" for getting into the next match.
Even ignoring all that, if survivors DC against you enough for you to whine about it on the forums. maybe you should invest in a mirror? Because getting to the point of complaining about this is proven you're incapable of seeing that your play style is making survivors matches miserable.
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Other killers with teleports. notably, dredge and singularity already function like this. they can not or have restrictions on using their power near hooks.
Sadako should not be able to teleport to a TV that's within 16 meters of a survivor, especially not if the sadako is actively trying to tunnel someone until they're fully condemned for the easy mori. as that TV would be the survivors only means of getting a tape to remove their stacks with.