Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/378379/windows-of-opportunity-op
It on it's own isn't that great
It in the context of maps oversaturated with vaults and palettes can be tedious. It's a perk that allows us to optimize the guess work out of a loop
Which is a problem with the maps.
@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449680#Comment_3449680
"What about the players who already have all that information and don't use the perk?"
1. Most maps have enough variability that you can't always know where every pallet is. This makes it risky to leave a tile and hold W since you won't necessarily know if the tile you end up at will be useful. Anything that gives some small measure of risk to holding W is a good thing. There's no skill expression from either side in running in straight lines.
2. Losing chases to a survivor because of a combination of their looping skill, map knowledge, and planning, is an example of skill expression determining the outcome. This should be the goal of a pvp game. If a single perk allows a low skill survivor to have the same chase length as a veteran player, that's the opposite of skill determining the outcome.
"Players already have this information"
1. Then why is it the most popular survivor perk??
Even with the variability, you can still reliably assume where a majority of the pallets are. This is especially true at the start of the match where the killer has no pressure and survivors are making their way to generators. Every player has knowledge of where things are as the match progresses. Killers can identify strong loops as they patrol generators.
I don't believe Windows is making survivors who are low skill have the same chase time as veteran survivors. I've never seen a low skill survivor hold a chase for more than 15 seconds. Windows shows you the auras, but it's up to the individual player to plan ahead.
I'd argue that the killer isn't nearly as skilled as they think they are if a low skill player is looping them for the same amount of time a veteran would. Low skill players tend to only think about their immediate solution, rather than planning ahead. A veteran player is thinking about their next loop before they even hit their first loop. They're already planning ahead.
Windows has only become popular because of everything else that was nerfed. Let's be real here, most of the perks in this game are either extremely niche and situational to the point of being useless outside of that niche, or they're blatantly overpowered and need nerfs. There are very few perks that fall into a grey area of being not great, but not terrible either.
Windows is easily countered, and it won't even cost the killer a perk slot. They could even sacrifice a perk slot to run The Third Seal and it not be cleansed until all the gens are done because it has such little effect on survivors.
Skill expression is important, but at the end of the day, Dead by Daylight is a casual game where skill doesn't always determine the winner. Sometimes it's luck, and sometimes it's broken perks/items.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449667#Comment_3449667
"Why nerf it to begin with?"
Because knowing where every map resource is at all times is a massive advantage.
Because as I said before, the game isn't balanced around running optimally every chase.
Because it incentivises braindead hold W chases instead of taking full advantage of whatever tiles are closest to you. Without GPS guiding you to the next resource, you have to weigh the risks of leaving your current tile where you know you have something to work with vs the next tile that could have nothing. You might even have to consider taking a few seconds to check your surrounding tiles instead of immediately slamming the closest gen.
So, what about the players who already have all that information and don't use the perk? Just because you have the information, doesn't mean you know how to use that information. Even without WoO, you'd still be losing chases to survivors who are confidently able to loop.
As you traverse the map, do you just put your blinders on so you're oblivious to all the map's resources? Of course you don't. Players already have this information, thanks to the wonderful thing we call eyesight.
As killer, you have the inherent advantage of 15% extra movement speed (assuming you're not playing Nurse or a 110% killer) over survivors. You also have the inherent advantage of Bloodlust. When people complain about WoO, it just sounds like a complaint that survivors don't just immediately die when you look at them.
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@Witchubtet said:
I dont See it as a Problem. It could use a small nerf maybe but nothing game changing. Perhaps a cooldown after vaulting or pallet dropping for ten seconds? Nothing to like how DS, DH, COH, HR, Or Eruption were nerfed though.
If they REALLY want to not add a cooldown or update then as a nuclear option they could add an effect onto it that discourages you from constantly running if. I’m not advocating for that however but it’s a thought.
The problem is, why nerf it to begin with? What does Windows do, other than show you the auras of map resources? Nothing. It has no other effect, and is completely counterable via blindness add-ons. A good killer also knows how to direct chases away from strong loops.
Strong loops should be weighted to spawn as far away from each other as possible. For example, Shack is a strong loop so it would make sense to have a strong loop spawn on the opposite end of the map to killer shack, so as to prevent chaining the two loops together.
@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449649#Comment_3449649
"Fix maps" meaning what? What's your idea of a "balanced" map?
Windows was always strong and provided the same information it does now. You just had to at least slightly use your brain to remember the information it gave between cooldowns.
Having more resources on maps without a GPS system to optimally run them is a much better solution then "Oh my gen is next to a rock and 2 trees so guess I'll die"
In a match where all players are of average skill, a chase should take no longer than 35 seconds. Anything more, and your chances of getting a 4k as killer drop significantly.
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There's face camping, in which you stand at the hook and guard the hooked survivor to prevent them from being rescued. Then there's proxy camping in which you patrol a short radius around the hooked survivor.
Both of these are camping. If people are immediately unhooking before the killer has even left the hook, then they're bad players.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435312#Comment_3435312
Please stop this "unfun" and "unhealthy" just because some streamer used these words now you use them for everything, it's ridiculous.
"unhealty and unfun" are bad map design, OP perks and addons, not tactics and strategies
There are a thousand variables that make this idea incredibly stupid and punitive and force the killer to make choices that don't make sense.
Classic situation : 3 survivors are in play, 2 generators remain to be repaired. I can hook a survivor, maybe one of the hooks on the hill or in the center of RPD or near the 3 gen of Dead Swang Saloon
Nearby (within 16 meters) I have a generator or two and we all know this is possible. Now, the fact that I HAVE to leave this area is ridiculous. I'm not talking about remaining fixed within 1 meter facing the survivor (THIS is face camp) but staying in defense of a strategic area and THIS is tactics
And don't tell me there are only a few maps that can have these problems because it's not true. Virtually all maps have hooks near generators ( RPD, The Game, Midwich, Blackwater, etc ), many have problems with hooks on two levels or absurd combinations and in some phases of the game, especially when few gens are missing, patrolling an area is a form of defending strong positions
I could (and I'm not) agree on the first stage self hook but SECOND STAGE self unhook plus endurance + speed boost is really ridiculous
Don't assume that I'm saying it because a streamer said it. I've played this game for a long time, and I've observed these forums for a long time. The general consensus is that people find tunneling, camping and genrushing to be unfun. I've yet to see a single person say they find being tunneled out of the game at 5 gens to be fun. No killer ever has said they enjoy being genrushed. No survivor has raved about how much fun they're having dangling from a hook with zero chance to actually play the game.
You're complaining about a feature that's intended to solve a long-standing problem before it's even been tested. The idea is a good one, and the PTB will be used for feedback on the range. I believe that 16m is a bit much, and we could reduce that to 12m. If we reduce it to the bare-minimum range, then every killer who camps will simply stay just outside that range, effectively making it pointless.
Just because camping can be used strategically, doesn't mean that every killer is using it as part of some larger strategy. They're generally doing it because it's a guaranteed kill.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435201#Comment_3435201
It happens to me probably one out of every 2-3 or so games. They aren't all "hens' death squad" teams. But it is clearly matching me against duo and trio SWF who are calling out to each other on discord every couple games which gives them around 50+ perks for free just by having discord. Generally, i'll stomp a team, then have 1 good match, then i'll get one of these death teams that beat me, then the cycle repeats, when in reality matchmaking should be giving me the ones that are good matches.
A duo using callouts over Discord just gives them access to information they'd otherwise lack, not that it matters much anymore with the HUD which tells you what each survivor is doing. A duo swf on comms stomping you would accomplish the same result without comms.
They aren't getting access to 50+ perks for free. What characterises a death squad is how well they know each map, how well they run each tile, what perks they brought, what items they brought, how well they're relaying information to each other, how well they're coordinating their plays.
There's a lot that goes into the characteristics of a death squad; and while all death squads are swf, not all swf are death squads.
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The carrot does not work. You can incentivise different behavior, but so long as the win conditions are kills over hooks for killers, and escaping via the gates for survivors, there's really no reason for either side to play in a less efficient way.
Tunneling is strong because it's efficient when done right. Camping is strong because it's efficient when done right. Genrushing is maximising repair efficiency. These are all problems that boil down to one common factor: Players like winning.
For some, simply having a good game is more important than winning, but for others winning is all that matters. Why play if you're not playing to win, after all?
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435180#Comment_3435180
Camping is a strategy and is what makes it important to distinguish the types because punishing some types is stupid and punishes people for playing well.
It's as much a strategy as tunneling and genrushing are strategies. At the end of the day, all three "strategies" are unfun to play against.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434484#Comment_3434484
Say that to killers who get matched against SWF kill squads running hyperfocus, commodius, and send you to garden of joy. 10 seconds isn't going to do a damn thing, when survivors literally just doing nothing but holding shift + w, no pallets, no windows, no looping, no anything, take 55 seconds to down and hook. Now do it 12 times lol
How often, realistically, does one get matched with these SWF kill squads? Unless you're high MMR, you're about as likely to get that kind of match as killer as survivors are to get matched against a 4,000 hour Nurse/Blight main who can 4k within a couple minutes of the match starting.
It happens, sure, but not nearly as often as people like to pretend. The problem with the genrush discussion is that no-one wants to admit that simply playing the game normally and doing your objective as a survivor is not genrushing.
Genrushing would be dedicating a build to completing gens as fast as possible, in order to maximise efficiency. That means perks like Hyperfocus w/Stake Out, Prove Thyself, Overzealous, etc. That means Commodius Toolbox with BNP.
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@duygu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433264#Comment_3433264
except here, they clearly said what they think face camping is:
Face-camping is a term used to describe when a killer stands in front of a hooked survivor and refuses to move, or do anything really, usually for a large portion if not the entirety of the match.
a mechanic to address facecamping.
they're punishing all forms of being near a hooked survivor which will be a gigantic nerf to every single killer except nurse.
you can argue as much as you want whether this is a good change or a bad change, but it's essential to clarify what is actually being argued.
They'll be keeping an eye on the unfair self-unhooks, but other than playing ring-around-the-rosie with a survivor infront of a hooked survivor, there aren't going to be too many instances where you feel unfairly punished. Multi-floor maps like Midwich and Gideon will present difficulties with this new mechanic, but overall killers won't need to worry too much about the mechanic.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433587#Comment_3433587
My question still stands, what is the threshold between face camping and proxy camping? Is there a vague middle range that's just camping but not either face/proxy? And if so, then this is a mechanic to address that form of camping as well.
Getting hung up on "it's not akshully face camping in the technical sense" is just missing the point, camping is camping, whether you're staring the hooked survivor down or you a couple of meters away, it serves the same purpose.
Technically speaking, facecamping hasn't been an issue since they solved the problem of the killer literally bodyblocking hooks, camping is just camping now, the face part is immaterial.
There is no actual threshold between proxying and face camping. Face camping implies that the killer is literally standing infront of the hooked survivor, camping them until death. Think Basement Bubbas. Proxying on the other hand is where the killer just patrols a short radius around the hooked survivor hoping to catch someone going for the rescue.
Regardless, camping is camping and there's really no point distinguishing between the different types of camping. They're all equally unfun.
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@burt0r said:
Yay, Fortnite dances 2.0 /S 😮💨
When people say they want emotes in dbd, they usually have something along the lines of Friday the 13th in mind rather than fortnite.
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For its initial testing in the PTB, we can expect it to be flawed. As I understand it, it will work based on proximity and duration. It will definitely have issues on multi-floor maps like Gideon and Midwich, but that's something they're going to be keeping an eye on and making sure that it doesn't unfairly punish the killer.
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@Patokiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383267#Comment_3383267
They will never implement such secundary objective, they´ve already tried, and failed it. In my humble opinion survivors should spawn far from the gens, and not right in front of it (as it ALWAYS happens).
Survivors spawning far from the gens doesn't slow the game down enough to matter. At most, it's 10 seconds for them to find a generator. In stark contrast to the time it takes a killer to get their first chase started, it's a drop in the proverbial bucket.
Bhvr's attempt at making a secondary objective for survivors was bones, which was rather silly since it detracts from the main objective rather than acting as a requirement for the main objective.
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@Patokiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382247#Comment_3382247
Man, gens will be done with survivors injuried or healthy... Being injuried doesn´t change anything at gens speed. They should nerf gen speed perks, that´s what I´m trying to say, or at least not nerf ALL gen regression perks from killers time after time like they did with Thanatophobia, Tinkerer and many other else.
The answer is and always has been to give survivors a secondary objective to slow the game down. If both the survivors and the killer load in without perks, Survivors have the upper-hand.
The killer has to guess where the survivors are in order to get their first chase going, while survivors already know where gens are. By time the killer gets their first chase going, at least two of the gens are at 50% or more.
If Survivors had to find generator parts to get their objective going, then that means the killer has more time to find the survivors. It affords the killer more time to get the ball rolling on their objective by increasing the legwork required for the other side to get their objective started.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
I was considering buying some of these, but the fact that they're exempt from iri shards and the fact that they are time limited has made me decide to say no. What also has me saying no is the fact that solo q is still a terrible experience and that has no end insight. I won't be giving bhvr anymore of my money, until they start being for their player base.
I don't care about the fomo, I'm choosing to miss out. because at this moment in time bhvr doesn't deserve my money. I'll continue to play with what I have, they're only skins.
They keep changing things that do not need to be changed while never doing anything about or dragging their feet about issues until their golden children the fog whispers complain.
Vault speed for killers didn't need to be changed, blast mine didn't need to be changed. The doors and pallets didn't need to be changed. The fact that the twins have to wait until january to be fixed is wrong. The fact that stadia players are hanging onto till pretty much the last moment to get their stuff transfered is wrong. The fact that I can't just go from my playstation to my pc and play with all my progression and purchases is wrong. The fact that nurse still hasn't been addressed is wrong. The fact that Jeff has no cosmetics is wrong.
until bhvr starts to right this crap none of us should be giving them money. The only people that can make them change is us and our wallets.
They don't listen to the fog whisperers either. It's just a rewards program for streamers. They get absolutely zero input on balance decisions.
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@NekoTorvic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286900#Comment_3286900
We'll agree to disagree about how earned that escape is. But that's fair. if they wanna use that combo, and be slugged under a pallet in case the killer picks them up, thats totally cool. I just want survivors who aren't running that combo to understand there's a reason other than BM that the killer might be slugging you under a pallet during endgame. And if you are gonna run that combo, then you kinda forfeit the right to call the killer out, cuz at that point they're doing the only thing they can to counter it.
Nobody's going to be happy having their time wasted for 4 minutes. Just pick them up. If they have power struggle/flip-flop, then they probably escape if they're close to the exit. If they don't, then you get to hook them.
Everyone thinks they're entitled to something. Killers think they're entitled to a kill, survivors think they're entitled to escape, but the reality is that nothing is free. Escapes/Kills have to be earned. Not necessarily directing this part at you in particular, but just felt like it needed to be said.
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That's not a free escape. If they hit you with the power struggle flip-flop combo, and escape, then they earned that escape. Chances are low that they have that combo anyway, so just take the risk.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286009#Comment_3286009
It's a hard stretch to think it's a perk to spit in survivors when all it does is countering tbagging but Okey.
I don't wish you harm I wish you to stub your toe wich I wish for everyone saying they like to bleed out people
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286045#Comment_3286045
And it's actually nothing serious. It's a quite common thing to say where I am from when you have a disagreement with someone it's not even something you actually wish it's more like urggh I'm annoyed we can't come to terms here. (sorry don't know how to discribe it better in englisch)
I hope you don't actually think I want you any harm
You don't want to come to better terms though. You're upset about survivors t-bagging in the exit gates. Like, oh no, they t-bagged, what ever will I do now? It's a waste of time on their part, and a waste of time on your part, so why get so worked up about it?
You have the option to either do nothing, or force them out. Wanting a perk that would lock them in the game and make them mori-able just makes you look silly, since you're taking their t-bagging seriously. It's a bunch of pixels making a rapid crouching gesture, get over it.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284323#Comment_3284323
Funny, I never see anyone complaining when survivors "take the easy route" like when they use voice communication to tell when the killer is at all times, pick an offering to Eirye of Crows, The Game, Ormond or Coldwind Farm, bring multiple BNPs, Styptic Agents and Syringes, spread through gens with toolboxes on maps where gens are horribly far apart, place Boons on borderline unreachable totems on RPD or Ironworks of Misery, give multiple bodyblocks with endurance perks while knowing the aim-assist will prioritize nearer targets even if the injured person is aimed on the center of the killer's screen, take Boil Over and hook offerings on maps with awful hook spread to create situations where hooking is impossible, spam sound cues to deafen the killer, and of course, DC to give the hatch when the killer is slugging.
I guess this "flaws in design" don't count, right? EVERYONE tries to take the easy route all the time in this game. It's literally BALANCED AROUND IT. The one uses most advantages on its favor wins. But for some reason, when survivors do it is valid, killers who do it are comitting a crime unless they have something to "justify" it. You know what? People who think camping is not "justifiable" are damn hypocrites.
Can we stop pretending like 4-man bully squads that are constantly relaying the killer's location are the norm when they very clearly aren't?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277373#Comment_3277373
But at least the killer won't get robbed as much anymore of their deserved 4k just because of random rng with hatch... only door rng stays... well better than nothing I guess...
They don't 'deserve' the 4k. Either they get it, or they don't. End of.
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
Hear me out pls.
I know that tunneling is #########, especially hard tunneling and I try to avoid it as killer whenever possible cause I want everyone to have fun. But I also want to win and I'm not okay with just throwing my chances of winning away for no reason. So when I went to RPD there was a kate that I downed after a chase. When she got unhooked I went back to the hook and everyone brought themselves into position already.
The Jane who has shown me that she has balanced landing was standing on the balcony overlooking the entrance hall.
The quentin with lithe was standing next to the office loop ready to vault.
And the meg with sprint burst was camping the god pallett.
Just the previously hooked kate was sitting in the dead zone in the entrance and healing herself up. So ofc I went for her. And ofc I got the typical "OMG filthy tunneler" complaints afterwards. But in this case I feel like tunneling was justified. If u dont want ur teammate to be tunneled at least try to make it more attractive to be chased by the killer. Not do it like these 3 and stand with ur exhaustion perks next to beginning god loops and basically go "but now u have to chase me or ur a tunneler".
PS: this is not a threat against tunneling in general.I know hard tunneling exists and is unfun and a problem. I just want to point out that there are situations where I think tunneling is totally justified.
Unfortunately, there's no getting around the fact that you did tunnel. Yes, the Kate should've gotten well away before starting to heal, but you also had options and considering none of those "options" were on gens.
You tunneled because Kate was simply the easier target. You were up against three different exhaustion perks all positioned for an easy getaway, and you made the correct decision.
The fault lies with the game rather than the players, honestly. Exhaustion perks provide far too much value, and the game would probably be better off without them.
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@dgbug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263595#Comment_3263595
if you're getting afk camped your teammates can do three gens in that time. and removing hook grabs would make really risky plays impossible for non instadown killers to punish. just dont unhook directly in front of killer lol
You've made the mistake of assuming it's about winning or losing. The person on the hook hasn't had fun, the killer hasn't had fun and the remaining survivors haven't had fun either.
Hook grabs on healthy survivors should be removed. It would promote actually accepting trades as killer, prompt survivors to play better to avoid trading, and simultaneously make the game more fun and engaging for everyone.
This would also have to be done in addition to a balance overhaul that promotes going for hooks over kills, but that's a separate topic.
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@Viamont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3121248#Comment_3121248
correction, it wont make them opt but "force" to go fot the other person, wich pretty much sounds like survivor rule book of "you cant atack an unhooked its the survivor law!". I always find amusing how people try to justify every single nerf and impose as much rules againts the killers because "it kils my survivor fun" but rarely they come with any counter balance againts the many things survivors can, do and encourage others to do regardless of how scummy, anoying or plain out unfun for the killer side is.
Now on regards of the topic, fine, lets take out hook grabs, in exchange i expect that:
1.- survivors are punished with +10 seconds more acumilative generator time if they stay on the same generator more than 20 seconds, because clearly thats generator campiing
2.- survivors will have to spend at least 5 seconds on a new generator that has been recently kicked just to be allowed to start gaining any benefit on said generator, after all just being allowed to literally tap the generator wich presents no risk, no punishment and virtually only benefits its "unfun" for the killers who have to manage many generators all at once.
3,. if 2 or more survivors are working on the same generator the moment they finish all of them are blocked from working on a new generator for for 60 seconds, this time dissapears if they are hit by the killer. Its just fair after all, there should be some kind of trade for rushing a generator, if not its clearly rushing and unfun for the killer
i could go on and on, but seriously, survivors need to stop tinking they are the only ones playing the game, they need to stop tinking killers need to adere to a ridiculous survivor rule book and understand that both sides have plenty of anoying/unfun things to the other side, either deal with it or also start balancing things out for both sides and not only the survivor side
It's not survivor rulebook. There's nothing an unhooked survivor can do to stop a killer from just tunneling them out of the game for no reason. Your entire argument and list of expectations is bad, because what you're saying is that you don't want to defend generators. You want to play a simulator where you're the killer and the survivors deaths are inevitable. There is no escape. No doing generators. Just running until you kill them.
If you don't play both sides, then you'll never understand why hook grabs on healthy survivors aren't good for the game. It just promotes camping, hook standoffs and tunneling.
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@GrimoireWeiss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3259254#Comment_3259254
There's no "strategy" in this. You can't choose where you want to hook survivors because of the wiggle mechanic. If all survivors go down in the same corner of Midwich where there's only a single hook available what "resource management" am I supposed to do lmao
That's a different matter. One that should be addressed in the same way the library on rpd was dealt with.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/354221/isnt-it-time-for-map-offerings-to-go-yet
Short answer: yes! Long answer: actually yes, but BHVR would be in a bind of what to actually fill the blood web with. Map offerings aside, I think that survivors could need one or two new classes of items.
Someone suggested that an easy fix would be to let map offerings work in reverse: instead of sending you to a specific realm when burned the fixed ones would throw the chosen realm out of the map pool for that round. If the game send you 5 times that night to the swamp, just burn up a couple of grandma's cook books.
This would solve the toxicity involved with map offerings and make them useful for both sides in one bold, fell swop.
This would also solve the problem of getting cucked by rng and getting the same map 5 times in a row.
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It's up to killers to manage their hooks. I vote the feature stays. If survivors have to avoid three-gens and creating deadzones for themselves, then killers can avoid creating hook dead zones.
Some maps should have their hook distribution looked at, like Midwich and RPD, and other maps like Badham should have guaranteed hooks in the corners to prevent survivors just running to a RNG-created deadzone, but the hook breaking on sacrifice feature should stay.
If hooks don't break on death, then perma-sabo should return. See how much y'all enjoy being forced to run Iron Grasp/Agitation every time because you can only hook in the basement.
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Yes, the gap needs to be bridged first and then killers can be buffed accordingly. Even simple stuff like a UI icons telling you who's doing what would go a long way to making solo queue better.
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Kate, because she is hands-down the prettiest survivor. Plus I love her cosmetics.
I don't play killer much anymore, so no real main there.
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Likely the latter, if previous events are any indication.
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This happens every event. It's par for the course at this point.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Killers would be fine with just getting a hit if that didn't also result in everyone getting out, despite the hook being like full-map away. Because as of right now, hitting someone when people are hook bombing, in endgame, leads to everyone getting out unless they make a huge blunder. People conga line body block, even the unhooked person because base BT is totally just for their protection, and even if you get the down in the exit area, body block and heal tech time, same result.
If the killer hooked near a 99'd exit and didn't try to push anyone else out? Sure, the survivors deserve to escape. But otherwise, it's a free escape that really shouldn't be one. That's why grabs have stayed.
Following your logic would imply that killers just want free kills. You're not entitled to a kill just because it's endgame. If survivors get the rescue and escape, then you should've played better. If survivors fail to get the rescue and end up dying because of it, then they should've played better.
Either way, there's no such thing as a "free escape/kill", and hook grabs on healthy survivors should be removed from the game. It's not like killers are out here every game getting hook grabs enough for the removal to be a big deal.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3215254#Comment_3215254
Trying to dodge the facts are we?
Im not talking about gen states in the math, so your "I elected to ignore your math because a generator is either repaired or not repaired. There is no individual state for each percentage." argument is kinda useless.
Not trying to dodge facts. Your math simply isn't relevant. You don't mention generator states in your math, but your math is a follow-up to my statement that a generator is either repaired or it isn't.
Your math is the standard gameplay loop, and I fail to see how that correlates with tunneling being a necessity. You're painting this picture that because the survivors objective is to repair the generators and escape, you have no choice but to tunnel them.
Survivors can do their objective really fast, which is boring, but then, so can killers. The game isn't balanced around how fast you can theoretically get your objective done.
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Oh, so tunneling is fine because you get focused some games and that's just how the game is.
Sorry mate, but the game was clearly not designed around tunneling being the intended way to play the game. This is why survivors have two health states and 3 hook states, instead of just being eliminated from the game as soon as they're hooked.
It wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't for it happening every round. It's at the point where I'm actually surprised if a killer isn't tunneling.
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@Gandor said:
Note to everyone in this discussion. @DBDVulture is the same person who insists tunneling generators is a thing + the one that said 6.1 patch was survivor-sided, because it nerfed some killer perks.
Take everything he said with huge grain of salt.
He's nothing if not consistent in pushing this narrative that killers are somehow being clowned on constantly.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214406#Comment_3214406
Kaitsja is only going to see it the way that makes the game fun for survivor.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214481#Comment_3214481
What if I said to you that my view as killer is that survivors have a binary existence? They are either dead or they are not tunneled out yet.
As killer for the most part I have to defend a stationary device that doesn't move or loop. It requires a nearly braindead task to hold a button to finish it. My objective as killer is to chase people who are smart and move around the map in ways that try and waste as much time as possible so the other three survivors can finish all the generators.
I spend 40-120 seconds chasing/downing/hooking someone and then I have 10 seconds to kick the generator. This does nothing if I am not chasing you directly. after the kick. See the problem?
It's very clear you want the game your way without even considering for a moment what it is like to play killer. You even go so far as to say Gen rushing is not tunneling and that Gen rushing is fine, but tunneling survivors out is not. It's a real shame I can't force you to play DBD with my MMR and force you to only be able to play killer for a week. I think you would play something else.
You're not really making any point beyond not liking the gameplay loop. At no point did I say genrushing was fine. I used neutral terminology to imply that both tunneling and genrushing are boring, and I said that there is no such thing as tunneling generators.
If your only way of having fun is by ensuring nobody else gets to have fun, then you shouldn't play online games. It's quite clear at this point that you want to justify tunneling under the premise that your hands are tied because survivors don't just put themselves on hook for you.
The game can be fun without either side doing their objectice as efficiently as possible. You're using this false narrative that I only care about making the game fun for survivors, yet I've been nothing but reasonable. I empathise with killers and understand the game is bad at high mmr, but that doesn't mean I'm ever going to be appreciative of the fact that tunneling is boring, and completely unnecessary outside of high mmr.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214684#Comment_3214684
- Did you even look at the math i presented for you??
- Gens have 1% done, 2% done, 3% done and so on, all the way to 100% thats all the states between not done and done, each state takes 0.9 sec to do if you solo with out any bonus perk or toolbox.
I elected to ignore your math because a generator is either repaired or not repaired. There is no individual state for each percentage. You are trying to justify tunneling under the premise that, because generators can be repaired, the killer is forced to tunnel.
Are survivors supposed to just goof off and meme so the killer can be spoonfed their 4k?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214481#Comment_3214481
Lol what?
So what you are saying is that there are only 0% done or 100% done?
Im not sure if we are playing the same game, but i often come to a gen thats 80% done.
But let me break it further down for you.
it takes 90 sec to do a gen, alone and with no perks, or toolbox
Now add toolboxes and perks to that (have you looked at how fast gens can be done??)
3 gens can be done at the same time, if the killer is busy hunting for the 4th
that makes 180 secs on gens, let say you use 30 secs to find gens (thats a lot).
Now we have 210 secs. for all gens to be done (still if everyone do them solo and with no perks, or toolbox) would be faster with perks and toolboxes. (but hey, lets just add another 60 secs, so you wont come in and say the math is unfair)
in those 270 secs the killer need to :
- find a survivor.
- catch up to them, and do loops.
- hit them once.
- catch up to them again. (because of the on-hit sprint).
- do more loops and pallets.
- hit them, again and pick them up.
- walk to a hook, and hook them.
- find another survivor.
- catch up to them, and do loops and pallets.
- hit them once.
- catch up to them again. (because of the on-hit sprint).
- do more loops.
- hit them, again and pick them up.
- walk to a hook, and hook them.
Start over on those 14 steps, 3 times. (3 hook states) because the killer leaves the hook and they both get rescued and healed up.
(Even more times, if the killer didnt catch the same 2 survivors that were already hook previously.)
All this for a draw (2k).
Generators don't have a third state between being repaired and not repaired. They either are or they aren't. Generators and Survivors are not equivalent. If survivors were to work a fresh gen every time the killer kicked a gen, their objective would literally never get done.
If a killer doesn't tunnel, they still have three other survivors to choose from. Applying pressure to only one person isn't pressuring the team until that survivor is dead. While there's nothing wrong with chasing that coveted 4k, it needs to be said that there is nothing wrong with a 2k.
It also needs to be said that more often than not a killer will walk away with a 2k or less because they made a lot of mistakes. If the killer gets a 3k or 4k without tunneling, either the survivors were outmatched or they made more mistakes than the killer.
While the potential for survivors to genrush is there, this isn't happening on a consistent basis outside of high mmr. Whereas tunneling is quite prevalent since it's a core mechanic that doesn't require the killer to bring anything.
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Not the place for this mate. Send it to support.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213286#Comment_3213286
Demaning that the killer goes for a frsh survivor would be the same as demanding that survivors should start on a fresh gen once the killer kicked one.
It dosnt sound right does it?
That's not the same thing. Survivors have two health states and three hook states. Generators are either repaired or they're not repaired.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213286#Comment_3213286
-"Repairing generators as fast as possible is genrushing."
So your problem seems to be semantics. Gen rushing and tunneling survivors out of the game have the same goal to finish your objective quickly. Can you agree that it is not fun when you don't really get much time to play the game? The killer gets a short game when the survivors gen rush. Likewise survivors who get tunneled get a short game too.
-"Tunneling and Camping don't prevent survivors from participating in gameplay. They prevent survivors from participating in normal gameplay."
Gen Rushing does the same thing to the killer.
-"Stop putting these 7000+ hour streamers on a pedestal."
Have a good look at the people Otz plays against : he plays in EU at very late hours (Bronx does the same thing). Overall he goes against mostly solo people with the occasional sweat squad.
Compare those games to what you see when CoconutRTS plays in his region at prime time (and the same for Truetalent). These streamers face overall much more difficult opposition for most of their show compared to Otz and Bronx.
Almost all my games at the level of MMR where I play are 3-4 man SWFs with almost no matches with anyone solo. There is a correlation with this game with SWF in that better players more often are in a SWF. I regularly play against people with 5,000-10,000 hours. If you think people with those hour counts are potato - fine.
"Play how you want but don't expect your opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies"
I am guessing our conversation is at an end because you are repeating yourself. Moreover you have no ability to see that you are advocating for the killer to not play at full efficiency but think there is no problem when the survivors do that.
Tunneling killers and Gen Rushing survivors are a problem when it concerns game balance. You can't fix one and not touch the other. However I get the impression from you that you do not see gen rushing as a problem. The reality is that if I lose two generators in the first chase then I am pretty much forced to camp that unhook to force a death hook or a kill.
For years DBD has had a problem where the survivor objective overall takes two to three minutes less time than the killer objective - unless as killer you tunnel. Patrick decided that kills are better than hooks. So I tunnel. There is no reward for hooking each survivor once as part of the base kit - so I tunnel. The reward is in tunneling a survivor out of the game. This is not to be mean but to finish a discrete part of my objective.
If I seen no problem with Genrushing, that would be hypocritical. That's why I used neutral terminology that encompasses both sides. :)
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213315#Comment_3213315
-"It's not a double standard. Nerfing SWF is punishing people for playing with their friends."
He nailed you pretty good actually. Nerfing SWF isn't punishing you for playing with friends. It's limiting how much better you are than solo queue.
-"Solo Queue needs to be brought up to the level of SWF as they're the ones who need help."
So give solo queue 4 information perks that are picked ahead of time and activate if they end up in a SWF game. Information perks are things like : bond, empathy, kindred, rookie spirit, alert - but NOT perks like Dead Hard or Self Care.
Likewise give killers 4 perks when they queue up against SWF. The killer gets any four perks that are chosen ahead of time for each loadout and only activate in case of SWF. You forget the killer is solo queue too and the second part of buff solo queue is the plan to buff killers.
Either way you want to put it the plan is :
- Buff solo queue
- Buff killer
- By proxy : swf gets nerfed because it gets zero buffs.
Honestly the idea of buffing solo queue to be on the same page as SWF is insane. DBD was a stealth game built around uncertainty. Should you rescue? Should you hide? Should you go for the save? Chasing was in an abysmal state in 2016 when you look at pallets and vaults. But what people had not worked out was : what to do when. People look at the tiles and asked how did killers win during this time? It was because survivors did not have the game sense to know when to do which action (and few people played in SWF groups).
Imagine for a moment that all walls in the game (and things like trees/corn) looked like glass for the killer and for the survivor they were opaque. That level of buff would put the killer on pretty equal footing with SWF. That's insane if you stop and think about what kind of buffs the killer is eventually in theory going to get.
He didn't "nail" anything. All he did was create a false narrative that solo queue is actually fine, and swf needs to be brought down to the level of solo queue.
Neither of you like swf, you've made that much clear, but don't think people are going to be on board with the idea of punishing them for playing with their friends, and it is punishing them for playing with their friends if you nerf swf.
The majority of swf are average, at best. They're not calling out their location, the killer's location, how to counter the killer's perks, where not to run to, where a gen they've been pushed off is.
They're calling out basic stuff ahead of time that you'd find out anyway like who the killer is, what perks they're running or possibly running, whether or not they're on a gen, if shack pallet's gone and if they're going for the rescue or not.
Your entire argument hinges on the existence of organised comp squads, who are in the extreme minority. You know who else is in the extreme minority? High MMR streamers. They aren't who the game is balanced around.
DBD is no longer a stealth game. The game as evolved. Times have changed. Solo Queue needs to brought up to the level of SWF. That means things like Basekit Kindred, and HUD Icons that tell them who's doing what. It does not mean putting them on par with the likes of Hens or Oracle.
How good a swf is comes down to experience, and how well they communicate. So when I say solo queue needs to be brought up to the level of swf, I'm saying they need the same ability to make informed decisions like swf can. The rest is up to how well play.
Giving out extra perks like candy because of how much information can be relayed at the highest level is absurd. Solo queue doesn't need to be spoonfed wins, and neither does the killer.
The changes I propose are that solo queue gets a lite version of base kindred that only shows them the killer's aura within 6m, alongside HUD Icons that show who's on a generator, traveling, cleansing/blessing, unhooking, and healing. That distance is on par with Reassurance. Maps can also be reworked to be smaller and have less strong, safe loops.
These changes don't affect swf. They don't get nerfed, but they also don't get anything out of it since they can already communicate what they're currently doing and whether or not the killer's camping.
The one area killers need buffs in right now is generators. Kicking generators should be more rewarding. So instead of the current 2.5% kicking a generator removes, which is rather pitiful, it can be increased to 7.5%. That's triple its current value. That, to me at least, is more than a fair exchange.
If all of this is still not good enough, because tournament this, comp that, then you can agree to disagree. Not that any of this will ever come to fruition with the direction this game is going.
That being said, I wouldn't mind trading a nerf to toolboxes, the removal of BNP, a rework to Overzealous, Hyperfocus and Prove Thyself if it gets you to agree with my proposed changes.
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I absolutely don't want FNAF, Alien or Predator. All three of those don't really fit dbd, imo.
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@Whoudini said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208997#Comment_3208997
How would an extra 5% carry speed have the potential to create problems?
An extra 5% carry speed basekit may not seem like much to you, but it opens up the potential for a whole host of problems.
It frees up a perk slot in builds that would otherwise require it. It makes it possible to hook someone in the basement when the survivor would've otherwise wiggled free. Agitation as a perk would have to be adjusted.
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Guess we found the killer-main equivalent of Sluzzy.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212072#Comment_3212072
It’s called The SWF double standard…..
Solo q needs to be buffed to be closer to SWF, because it’s a big difference.
SWF should not be nerfed to be closer to Solo q, because it’s not a big difference.
It's not a double standard. Nerfing SWF is punishing people for playing with their friends. Solo Queue needs to be brought up to the level of SWF as they're the ones who need help.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212054#Comment_3212054
"I'm not going to accuse the devs of lying"
I never accused any dev or moderator of lying. Not being able to read data correctly is very easy in the case of statistics. This happens all the time when you gather the wrong statistics. I talked to the dev stat person in ~2017 or 2018 and realized they were gathering the wrong statistics a long time ago. I asked fewer than four questions and almost all the replies were : we don't track that stat. I asked one complicated question if they ever considered cross referencing one specific stat with another and the person was literally horrified saying that would be a month of work. I' was required to do more than I asked for in a less than four hour exam in college. Needless to say I did not get a very good impression of how the staff were handling statistics. Things might have changed since that time but I doubt they have a "math person" covering things.
Not knowing the correct answer and giving one you think is true means you are misinformed - not necessarily that you are a liar.
-"you should not balance a game around the potential of a minority of people to be bully squads"
This cuts both ways. Why did we lose the LF masks? Because a small minority were choosing to engage in abusive behavior. Game design should prevent all abusive behavior.
From a marketing perspective making people not be able to duplicate characters in a SWF has the potential for people to buy more characters. From a fair play perspective it's a rule they use in tournaments so that you can't hide how many times which Claudette has been on the hook.
Not being able to bring 4 toolboxes is a good idea from a fair play sense. Why? Many killers will just immediately dodge that lobby anyway. Most tournaments do not allow items to be repeated as it makes each item more interesting and each item gives that player a specific role advantage.
Not being able to repeat perks (with BT being an exception for one duplication) again makes each character have a clearly defined role. There is no way you can honestly tell me that if you played DBD about one- two years ago there was no difference between a SWF where the perk loadouts of four survivors on voice coms were : BT, DS, DH, Unbreakable and one where the SWF just brought "whatever". The difference is night and day and everyone knows why. The same perk build outside of a SWF sucks. Do you know why? Because you have zero information to utilize your perks to their best extent.
-"In most cases the average SWF is not that good. They're not better at chases, they don't have a better game sense,"
This is not true at all. If you are in a SWF then you can have at your disposal the knowledge of the most experienced player in that SWF. I can recognize almost all the dangerous killer addons and warn my team about them and how to outplay them.
When you are in a SWF you can say : the killer went to the two people on a generator or the person alone. That's an insane advantage. This gives those parties 10-15 seconds to hide before the killer gets there.
When you are in a SWF you can say : the devour hope totem is located exactly here (while you are being chased).
When you are in a SWF you can say: the killer has bamboozle.
When you are in a SWF you can say: I used shack pallet.
When you are in a SWF you can say: the killer chased me off generator at X,Y,Z it is 90% completed - go finish it now.
-"when I hear that SWF should be nerfed because even at low mmr"
The changes I am suggesting to SWF will have almost zero effect at low MMR so we can just delete this thought entirely. The changes are meant to address survivors who have a MMR over 1600 which is a larger number of players than people think.
The frequency and number of people in a SWF goes down as mmr goes down. As a function of volume the people who are disruptive with SWF are the players around 1600 MMR. What makes my suggestions to change SWF so good are that they will impact high MMR players negatively while having almost no effect on middle/low tier survivors.
Stop using comp teams and tournaments as the example of what an average swf is. You are not playing against Oracle or Hens every time it's a swf. The average swf is simply not that skilled.
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Maps should be balanced. Map offerings should remain so long as rng can send you to the same map multiple times in a row. I don't much appreciate getting macmillans 5 times in a row without an offering.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211717#Comment_3211717
By itself? Technically, sure. Paired with basekit 45s self-recovery? The overall system is closer to a nerf.
I appreciate the time-saving aspect of not having to find, pick up, carry, and hook every slug, but I don't think the way the overall system was handled was a good idea, and the basekit recovery basically kills a strategy and many perks revolving around it.
It may be closer to a nerf, but it still a buff all the same. Without the basekit recovery, there would be no reason for killers not to slug. The whole system is a bad idea, and I would much rather be able to bleed out faster, and let the auto-mori be a thing when all other survivors are dead.
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I'd like breakable walls to be removed from the perk tbh.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212051#Comment_3212051
-"Generators and Survivors are not equivalent in any way, shape or form. Survivors simply doing their objective is not genrushing"
I will now convince a logical person that this is in fact the case.
What is the fastest way to win as survivor? You repair five generators with 100% repair progress without any gen ever getting any regression. You do not have "wasted" 20% repair progress on any generators.
What is the fastest way to win as killer? You eliminate one survivor at a time to reduce repair efficiency by 25% with each elimination. You hook each person three times in a row to continually reduce maximum repair efficiency. You can slug to force one person to stop what they are doing to rescue the slug especially if the slug was protecting someone you want to tunnel. It is inefficient to hook each survivor twice before hooking anyone three times. This is the equivalent of getting gens almost repaired and then having them degrade to no progress.
-"play however you want but don't expect the opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies to ensure your victory."
How exciting is it for the killer when every generator gets finished in ~40 seconds because the survivors are using prove thyself and strong toolboxes. I could apply your same words to survivors who finish their objective in about 4 minutes - so fast that they can't possibly pip at red grads because there were almost no chases, and only 1-2 rescues off the hook.
-"What makes tunneling and camping unfun is the denial of being able to participate in normal gameplay."
Watch the streamers with 7-9k hours and you will see them sometimes lose all five generators with 0-2 hooks. Was that fun for them? No. It's a perfect example of survivor tunneling. There is no fun for the killer when the generators are done too quickly at no real risk.
-"At no point is a killer prevented from participating in normal gameplay"
This picture is important in the growth of the mind of a child when they can realize they see one image "first" and their parent might see another at a different angle. You have the same limitations as the child who assumes their parent sees the same image they see when you assume all things must serve the fun of the survivor.
https://www.illusionsindex.org/images/illusions/duck-rabbit/duckrabbitmain.jpg
What if I said : at no point is a survivor prevented from participating in gameplay when I tunnel them out. They got to play the game - just not the way they wanted. Quite often I am literally forced as killer to get one player to stage two if I lose two or three generators in the first chase. That is the current pace of the game - you need MORE than one hook state per generator.
Let me remind you that an expected outcome is 9-10 hook stages and 5 gens completed. That works out to an average of two hooks per generator completed. Every time I lose two generators in the first chase I immediately camp the next person to stage two so they are on death hook if they are surrounded by three close by generators. This makes completing one of those generators impossible and makes the best case scenario for rescue into a trade. It is the most powerful move I can make as killer and unfortunately it becomes my only move when people rush gens.
Can you describe what you would call a perfect game of DBD?
Repairing generators as fast as possible is genrushing. Repairing generators is not genrushing. There is no such thing as survivors tunneling gens.
If you think not tunneling means hooking each survivor twice before killing any, you are extremely misguided. If you hook Survivor A, then Survivor B, then Survivor A again, that's not tunneling, because Survivor B was the buffer.
Tunneling and Camping don't prevent survivors from participating in gameplay. They prevent survivors from participating in normal gameplay. At no point, with the exception of script-kiddies, are killers prevented from participating in normal gameplay.
Unless you're high mmr, which I very much doubt that you are, there is absolutely no need to tunnel and camp. Survivors are not skilled enough to complete their objective in 4 minutes at mid and low MMR. Stop putting these 7000+ hour streamers on a pedestal.
I'll say it again: Play how you want but don't expect your opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies. That goes for both survivors and killers.