Iron_Cutlass
Iron_Cutlass
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392439#Comment_3392439
And I think you are rewarded via burst regression for not tunneling.
25% of total progress is huge.
Also, four hooks is four hooks. If you're smart about it, that means only one person can be doing gens. (Someone hooked, someone to unhook, some chased and someone on a gen)
"I personally wish they added an anti-tunnel mechanic to it and that was it," was what I originally stated for a reason.
Im talking about 15% regression, not 25%, sorry if this was not made clear enough.
Im basically just saying, revert the SH: Pain Resonance nerf but add an anti-tunnel mechanic to force players to not tunnel in order to get the regression.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392411#Comment_3392411
If you've managed to hook 4+ people in the early stage of the match, you do NOT need extra regression on top of it.
You're already winning.
Well, it would be hooking 4 unique Survivors, which does not help in the pressure department since I could have easily tunneled someone out of the match, and would have basically won regardless... but I think nobody wants that to be the current state of balance.
And Ive had matches where I get hooks early on but struggle later in the match because Survivors saved resources for later in the match. So 4 hooks early on does not necessarily mean you will win either, which ya know, happens sometimes. DBD will be DBD sometimes.
Overall, if I tunnel someone, I should not get the regression, otherwise, if I play well and spread hooks, I should be rewarded for trying to not tunnel.
Again, I normally run just a single regression perk, but I want to feel rewarded for playing skillfully. I am actively making the match more difficult for myself so why cant I have something to help me out?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392404#Comment_3392404
25% total regression is nothing to scoff at.
I would personally prefer to use Pop Goes... it's normally the only regression perk I bring anyways.
I think it is the limited use factor that does it, I do not like the feeling of "you can only use this ___ amount of times", it feels like I am punished for playing too well because Im just stuck with an empty perk slot for the rest of the match.
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I mean they buffed SH: Pain Resonance... kinda... not really. It's still going to be a dead perk.
I personally wish they added an anti-tunnel mechanic to it and that was it, it would be a nerf but it would also promote players to go for more hooks. The regression would overall be the same if you were skilled enough to manage chases. But nope, we have this token effect which I do not like in the slightest.
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Pharmacy just needs to have it's Chest Unlocking Speed increased like it use to, before it would always apply, now it only applies while injured. Before I would run Pharmacy with Plunderer's Instinct and Ace In The Hole just to make Chests fast and fun to search, cant really do that anymore.
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@Mandy said:
This is a pretty hefty nerf tbh. The perk can't be used in the first chase, it can't be used until you've earned it - that's pretty big. Really surprised that you think this is a small adjustment.
Honestly, could not have said it better myself (since my response would just end up in a long-winded essay that no one will really read because it's too long).
✅ Dead Hard cant be used in the first chase.
✅ Very limited use compared to before (I think it should only apply on being unhooked, not when unhooking, but I digress).
✅ Now acts like an anti-tunnel perk, when before it promoted tunneling (since it was tied to unhooking).
I also at least thing SH: Pain Resonance should just have a Unique Survivor effect similar to old BBQ, where you hook a different Survivor to gain benefits, just to avoid only having 4 usages of it is severely limiting, and 25% regression just is not worth it when I can just run Pop Goes. Plus I think it would be healthier if regression itself rewarded not tunneling.
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I personally think a lot of their addons just need a rework in general, there is no reason to run anything other than Malthinker's Skull and Haddie's Calendar.
Then again, I feel like 95% of Killers just have useless or mediocre shovelware addons.
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I personally think it kind of promotes tunneling a bit.
Basekit Endurance and Haste can provide a significant amount of distance and time-waste (letting them reach a safe loop), but if the Killers hits you right as you get unhooked, you still make the same amount of distance (if not less distance) than with the Haste, but you also are put into Deep Wounds which disables perks like Off The Record and Dead Hard. The Killer has no reason to not go for the unhooked Survivor.
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@Canas said:
I played two matches today and both were marked by abhorrent bullying by the survivors, I simply couldn't bother playing any further after this.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9OABVK7J2XUR/1.jpg
The matchmaking and map design were so blatantly survivor sided that it took me four gens to secure my first hook. With no other option but to camp I kept hooktrading just to end up with a 1K anyway. It was an extremely onesided experience and to make matters worse they verbally abused me for being unable to compete against these sort of odds.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VGGBTU62YGML/2.jpg
Another unwinnable match, once again the survivors were playing like a sweat-hitsquad while I was struggling to down anyone. Circle of Healing completely nullified any damage I put out. In the end Nancy even had the audacity to ask me if I feel ashamed for losing to the survivors. It's absolutely abhorrent how survivors like these full-knowingly abuse their role to bully killer players with.
The game is extremely survivor sided in its current state and bullysquads know it damn well. They show no remorse when it comes to exploiting their busted role.
They revel in harassing and insulting the killer while a simple m1 killer player like me can do NOTHING to stop their relentless assault on my sanity. Dead by Daylight is a bully simulator and nothing else.
Just a question. Not trying to downplay your experience but how come the Nancy "had the audacity to ask you if you felt ashamed for losing to Survivors" but did not put any physical image to prove it. With the first team, you put their end-game chat messages, but you never did it with the Nancy?
Also that final team I would not even count as a "bully squad", not every team you lose to is a bully squad. There was an Adept Jane, and nothing to really indicate if they even played together (I know some people will say "they are the same platform" but that literally indicates nothing most of the time). Im really tired of people using the term loosely, when like 95% of the teams they faced are people just playing the game and trying to have fun, I cant tell you how many times Ive been labeled a "bully squad" despite being SoloQ all because I got a few flashlight saves or played extremely well. But I digress.
The only time I actually care about losing a match and/or people harassing post-game is if people DDOS me, which has happened, but 95% of the time I just say "ggwp" and go next. If people are actually playing with the intent to "bully" you or make you upset, it is better to not give them the attention they want. It can definitely be hard to get into this mindset, but it is definitely worth doing, the DBD community can be vicious sometimes, you really have to grow thick skin (I do not mean this in a mean or malicious way, I am just trying to offer advice). Realistically, you cannot change the people around you, they can only change themselves, but you can change yourself and your mindset; it is a bit sad that this is the only thing that can be done, but it is just how things are.
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I honestly didnt even know this perk was bugged, since I typically use it on some Killers to try and get Generator grabs.
Now knowing this, I feel bad. It definitely should be killswitched like it was before.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390772#Comment_3390772
Not really so hard with the videotape and workshop grease
It's not about being hard, it is about being excessive and annoying.
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@ThanksForDaily said:
They need overhaul indeed plus the devs have admitted like 2 years ago that they're bugged with a result of giving 95% killer dailies and they haven't fixed them yet.
Also some of them are hard to do in 1 even 2 games and yet you get the same amount of bps with some of the easiest killer dailies.
Land 4 dashes with Pig for example, yeah I ain't do that.
Some Daily Rituals definitely need to be looked at.
Pig for example, could be changed to "place 4 Reverse Bear Traps on Survivors".
I know the Knight had an annoying one where you had to hit 5 Survivors with your Guards, stuff like that could be lowered to 3 hits needed (since 95% of the time Knight's guards just act as a zoning tool or something to distract them).
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I personally would just like to see it reworked to have it be unique and not just a stat increase with a mediocre downside (that can be entirely removed with certain perks).
DBD has a lot of potential, BHVR just lacks creativity, but they can really rely on community suggestions. Im sure MDR has some pretty good rework ideas out there, I just never see anything regarding Spirit nowadays since people are too busy complaining about the PTB.
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Well, there could be a few reasons:
- BHVR normally just gives away BP as login rewards for events now.
- Bloodpoints are suppose to be easier to get compared to before (aka, just play the role that has the +25% to +100% bonus at that given time).
- BHVR has done nothing awful to make an apology BP code for (honestly, really surprised about this one, it's been awhile since we've gotten one).
- The last codes we got were for old Lunar New Year cosmetics.
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@Hex_Llama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390210#Comment_3390210
I agree with this. I've seen a few people play this game for the first time on stream and a lot of them think the intended strategy is to camp the first person they hook (it makes sense).
It's a flaw in the game design that the most effective and obvious strategies lead to one or more players having a boring, unfun match with no real opportunities to score points. And, TBH, I'm not sure continuously changing the perks will do much about it.
When I first started playing the game in 2018, the first thing I ever did was hook a Survivor and camp them on hook, because my dumb brain saw the timer moving down and thought me being near the hooked Survivor was causing it... as you might have expected, the Survivors were definitely not happy about it, I got cussed out and took a 2 week break before picking up the game again.
The game throws you in and does bare minimum to teach you the game, and Id imagine that I am not the only person to have done this.
For people learning the game, once you pick up on the fact that you can win much easier by getting the first Survivor out, I think a lot of people did it. When I was learning, I did it a lot, but it came at the downside of me being paired against people that were vastly more skilled than me, and had meta perks whilst I was still leveling up my first character. And it felt crushing, so yet again, I was turned away from the game and waited a few weeks before playing again.
This was 2018, when we still had Ranks, mind you, and the game was significantly less sweaty and more casual. Nowadays Id imagine the new/less-experienced players' experience is far more frustrating and overwhelming than it was back then, and will continue to worsen as time progresses.
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@Brimp said:
Kind of. This community can and have cried because something took some sort of brain to counter while hiding behind some reasoning that's usually invalid due to logic. I still think pop and ruin should be reverted because it at least encouraged someone to not sit near a hook for long periods of time unless they went down near a highly progressed gen.
I had the idea of Pop Goes just being changed to 20% total progress instead of 20% current progress; since ya know, it still gets the benefit of the 5% on basekit kicks.
Though for Hex: Ruin, I had the idea that if a Generator is blocked while Hex: Ruin is still active, the blocked Generator still regresses (this applies on top of it's current effect of course). It would have some new utility to it and make it have synergy with Dead Man's Switch and Thrilling Tremors. Plus it would probably be the most unique regression effect considering it would be the only thing that can regress a blocked Generator.
I think BHVR just needs to think outside of the box. You can buff regression perks and make them unique without necessarily having to change the regression %.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Part of me wonders, if Killers did not camp and tunnel, and the Killrates were lower a result, would Killers receive more significant buffs?
As much as I hate going against this playstyle, it's not the player's fault that these tactics work. That's BHVR's fault. The best built-in way (so not including perks) to slow down generator repair and keep the match from ending so you have more time to get kills is to take out a survivor as fast as possible. People's repair speeds aren't slower after being hooked. Survivors aren't really penalized for being hooked other than being one step closer to death, but it doesn't matter at all until they are actually dead.
Killers aren't rewarded for "spreading the love." If anything, they're penalized, because like I said, hook states don't matter, only deaths.
It doesn't help that tunneling and camping are the most intuitive ways to play. There's no tutorial that teaches to pressure gens. This game is not beginner friendly. A few weeks ago I went against a killer who did really poorly and he happened to be streaming. Turned out he was brand new and after a few games of camping hooks his chat had convinced him to spread out hooks, go after multiple survivors. Well, he not only got stomped but he earned fewer Bloodpoints than he did when he was camping. So the streamer said, "Yeah, I'm going back to camping the hook." Who's surprised by that? Who can blame him?
I personally do not mind tunneling and camping, I have accepted it as part of the game, and I do think it will never leave this game truly unless BHVR actually does something about it. So I do agree with the "blame the game, blame the developers, do not blame not the players" mindset, since often a player's actions are a reflection of the environment around them.
DBD has created an environment where the most skillful play (12 hooks) is less rewarding than the smarter play (tunneling and camping). Why spread 1 hook between 3 Survivors when you can hook the same Survivor 3 times? You make the game a 3v1, which is infinitely easier, and you make roughly the same amount of bloodpoints anyways. I dont blame people for doing it, it is the path of least resistance and it ends with almost the same (if not better) outcome.
The mere question I asked in the first place is a hypothetical, if there were some way to really influence BHVR's decision making in a meaningful way. Realistically, you cannot control everyone, so recreating any situation I mentioned in the original post is impossible, but it is still an interesting question nonetheless.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390123#Comment_3390123
Your post is asking killer to voluntary lose on purpose to appease survivor players. that is ok for killer player who not competitive and do not care too much about end game result but competitive players that want to win do not like losing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390092#Comment_3390092
i think dbd balances killers among highest standard of skill but balances survivor around average standard of skill. that is my opinion to why killer struggle vs higher level survivors. the killer powers are watered down for average players to do well that when the killer player faces experienced survivor that understand nuance of looping and the killer power, the killer is ineffective because the power is balanced around not so good players.
Where did I ever say people should voluntarily lose on purpose?
This entire post is a hypothetical question, could we, as a community, alter the outcome of the game? People like to throw around the idea that balance is entirely in BHVR's hands, but what if we had more influence than we give ourselves credit for?
That's it, that is all this post is about. Im not asking people to throw matches. Im not asking people to play every match like it is a tournament. Im just asking a question.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390103#Comment_3390103
There are way, way, way less farming killers than suicides, so definitely not a close comparison at all. The suicides are a multiple times on a daily basis whereas I can’t even remember the last farm match I saw.
Also I completely disagree on balancing against casuals. There are some changes that are worse for casuals but the games casual player base is extremely catered to and balanced for to an extremely larger extent, like it’s not even close. Way too much for that matter. By and large the game is balanced around players with sub 100 hours.
What about giving Survivors hatch though?
I know a lot of people who do that, even I do it a lot. I mean you definitely do not see it as much as you use to but people still definitely do it nonetheless.
Also I never said we should balance around casual players, I just said that I do not agree with the idea that BHVR is balancing around casual players, especially when the changes they make are directly harmful to casual players. BHVR uses statistics to make changes, the issue is that BHVR does not know why those statistics are the way that they are.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/370901/is-dbds-balance-our-fault
-"Camping and tunneling are tactics that Killers often employ to try and bring more pressure to the game, to have an easier time securing hooks and kills, and I feel like most people in the community have accepted that these tactics are not going anywhere anytime soon."
This is the delusion of the unimaginative mind. We could very easy stop camping and tunneling. Let's imagine some base game kit changes:
- When the killer has exactly 1 player on the hook (and 4 players are alive) the generator with the most progress immediately becomes unable to be repaired and immediately begins regressing. The killer has 15 seconds to move 16m away from the hook or this effect ends. The survivors can end the effect if they unhook the hooked player. The 15 second timer is reset if the killer is in a chase around the hook.
- Whenever a killer hooks a survivor for the first time they debuff all survivor actions by 9% if no one has been killed yet. This debuff will remain until the trial ends. Where do we get the 9% number? If the debuff is 8% then it's just more efficient to tunnel the first player hooked out of the game.
- All maps will now be 9000m² or smaller. Until all maps are reworked to be that size killers without teleports or movement speed cannot play those maps unless the killer specifically uses a map offering. Survivors playing against a "no movement" killer using a map offering would have all maps with a surface area larger than 9000m² become invalid. In other words using a farm map offering would only be able to take Trapper to the abattoir map as all other maps in the tileset are too large. Blight and Nurse and any killer that can teleport or has a very fast movement power (Billy/Demo/ Freddy/Sadako/etc.) would be unaffected.
- No map will ever have more than 14 pallets. More pallets on every map will be "unsafe" meaning they have a long side and a short side so the killer can "mind game" the pallet. If the map includes a SWF then 2 pallets are removed from the map.
- DBD will rebalance all tiles to have less maximum linkage than is possible right now. Having lots of linked strong tiles allow players to loop those tiles without using resources.
-"Are these unreasonable questions to ask?"
No they are completely valid. Most of the balancing feedback comes from people who do not understand the game and "feel bad" when they lose a match without even knowing why they lost.
-"DBD's balance is based on statistics, which a lot of people pointed out as flawed,"
DBD looks at the end result without considering how we got there. This is problematic if you are familiar with rigged wins/losses in sumo wrestling. In short some Sumo matches are arranged losses so certain wrestlers preserve their rank. If you didn't know what was going on it might look genuine. But people have figured out that there is clearly cheating in sumo wrestling just to help other fellow wrestlers out.
How does that relate to DBD? If you don't measure a statistic then you can't measure how it influenced the match. If you just look at the outcome you will miss how everything came together for either a survivor to win a match or for the killer to lose.
DBD does not track when hook events happen vs when generators are completed. This is a big problem because if people mess up at the end the killer might get two kills that should have been easy escapes. Does anyone really think DBD is a fun/fair game if there is one to three hooks before the gates are powered? The DBD stats suggest that's not a problem.
To better clarify.
I am not saying "there is nothing that can be done about camping and tunneling". I just personally believe that BHVR is going to nothing (or bare minimum) to actually handle it.
To me, personally, it feels like any suggestion I give just goes nowhere, and even with accessibility, I had to fight tooth and nail only to get bare minimum features that almost every other game has, and even then, I was not alone while doing it, it took me fueling an entire movement on DBD Forums and Twitter to get it actually going somewhere.
And my question is regarding how they make changes, if BHVR is so keen on using data, what would happen if we skewed the data?
Idk, I just do not have the same hope that I use to, DBD has taken what hope I had for the game improving and thrown it into a meat grinder.
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@Blueberry said:
The majority of people don’t play dbd at a high level which is where the balance problems come out. This in turn leaves the majority of people voicing balance opinions not actually understanding the games balance.
A second point is one that many already mention but it’s an asymmetrical game which means there will always be vastly more vocal people in favor of one side which can give a very skewed perception of the communities opinion on a change.
If you were having surgery done would you want “everyone’s” opinion on how the surgery should be done to matter? Or would you just want the people experienced and trained in surgery getting an opinion on your surgery? Something to think about as we put the “majorities” opinion into determining balance changes when the majorities doesn’t understand the games balance and many have a bias view point.
Id also like to briefly mention:
- Yes, there are people who purposefully throw matches, this can lead to skewed killrates.
- This also does not consider people who farm or purposely let certain Survivors go, this can also lead to skewed killrates.
Also I disagree with the idea that the "majority" (casual) are influencing balance decisions when a lot of the changes being made are harmful to casual players; furthermore the new/less-experienced players' experience is being made further complicated and overwhelming.
The healing changes, for example, Ive seen a lot of high-level players disagree with, because it does not agree some of the actual issues with the game (such as toolboxes remaining untouched and Generator repair speed-up remaining untouched). It is something neither high-level nor casual players can get behind, at least from what Ive seen.
Meanwhile you have people spouting that "the next patch will kill the game" and "Killers are leaving the game (here is why)" but I seriously just cant help but wonder if this is a product of our creation, like, could we - as a community - prevented this from happening?
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@Shroompy said:
Wraith to me has always been a sort of sleeper pick, hes much stronger than people give him credit because he can deal with basically any situation and is not necessarily lacking in any department
To me the only things Id change is the speed burst revert, and give him some form of Shadow Dance base kit since it usually finds it self in at least one of the add on slots
Wraith is a "Jack of All Trades", but he is not a "Master of None" (unless you literally run no addons). For a 2016 Killer in 2023, he is really damn good, and a lot of people do not give Wraith enough credit.
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@ButterFlee13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389301#Comment_3389301
Well, isnt that the case of Survivor HUD?
Dev wants to prune survivors playstyle to be as efficient as possible. Then the other side response is also playing with killing in efficiency too which means tunnel one out early.
The Survivor HUD is not just for playing optimally, it just provides information for people to make better decisions.
Before the update, I got left on second stage many times if I never ran Kindred because my teammates could not tell who was doing a gen, who was going for a save, and who was in a chase; now I rarely reach second stage unless the Killer returns back to the hook for pressure.
I think that can be tied into fun a bit. It is not fun to be left on second stage and immediately have the Killer leave whatever chase they are in to remove me from the match. And because it was so common, at least for me, it felt like I barely had an opportunity to actually play the damn game.
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These are all the outfits that Ive done so far that I just really enjoy. I was planning on getting a new outfit for Billy but Im going to hold off since the PTB got announced and Id rather play the changes on live servers before I continue anything with him. Ill probably still play them from time to time, I just wont main them anymore. But I digress.
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I personally do not taking someone pressing the crouch button several times offensive or upsetting, mainly since Ive encountered much worse stuff before. I feel like everyone nowadays just tries to find an excuse to be up and arms over small things that dont really matter.
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Suggesting you are paired with/against people of the same MMR level:
- 0-1 Kills => MMR loss (Loss)
- 2 Kills => MMR does not change (Tie)
- 3-4 Kills => MMR gain (Win)
There are other external factors that contribute to MMR gain/loss, such as the duration of the match.
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@Ketrab2703 said:
I played a while back, when shards were given based on how many minutes you spend in a match, when the system changed i was left with 4 or 9 at the end. After few years of it bugging me, I've decided to ask support if they could round the number down, and they did! (I even got some BPs then)
I remember that being a thing back in the day.
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@FootMan2893 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388003#Comment_3388003
I gave an explanation as to why. It'd give the killer the ability to see if anything strong is at play. Like I stated: Did I just knock a brown medkit out of a survivor's hand or did I just knock a ranger medkit with the best charge addons out of someone's hands? Better yet, did I just knock an instaheal or styptic out of someone's hands? Well the answer to both is I now have the ability to play around it if they are.
Youll see the items a Survivor brought at the end of the match anyways, I do not think that will change much.
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@BlueHorkew said:
Funny, i didn't get anything about Eyrie in the survey.
The questions you get are dependent upon how you feel about things.
If you think of a map too negatively, they ask you questions about it. If you think of a Killer/Survivor too negatively, they ask you questions about it. If you are unhappy about that state of the game, they ask you questions about it.
I think it is lame that BHVR locks questions behind dissatisfaction, I think BHVR needs to get responses from everyone to properly gage where things are.
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@GannTM said:
Now they need to eventually let us spend 4 shards.
Every April Fools, they let us spend 1 Iridescent Shard... until the final year, they just stop and force us to keep our Iridescent Shard count lol.
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Personally, I would prefer a base duration increase if her addons for duration were toned down proportionally. Just to make her feel a bit better to use.
Idk why, but her basekit just does not feel good to use, but when you use the uncommon duration and uncommon speed addons, her power feels way too good (almost a bit cheesy, at least I feel that way, not like it matters though because I still use them regardless).
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This is what Ive been saying.
If DDOSing isnt an issue, why are people still actually getting DDOSed? Clearly something has to be going wrong, but Ive heard it is mainly an issue with Steam DBD so it could be Steam itself leaking that information, who knows really.
If they "fixed" Server/Client Crashing, then why does it still happen to many players after they proclaimed that it had been already fixed the update prior? Either their fix didnt work or they just did not see where the issue is and claimed nothing was wrong.
I originally took a super pessimistic tone towards this whole thing, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it's probably just incompetence. BHVR is ran by people, and people make mistakes, it's more likely that BHVR just does not notice there is an issue where there is, or likely that their "fix" did nothing since the game's code is already held together with rubber bands and masking-tape.
Either way, I hope this gets fixed so people can play with game without risk of wasting 10-20 minutes of their time because the game just forces them to DC in some way.
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The blue version of the Florescent Fear cosmetic comes from the store, the Deep Rift was not introduced in Tome 12: Discordance yet, and the Florescent Fear cosmetic is a direct reskin from the store cosmetic (High-Vis Horror, Joey).
[Proof that there was no Deep Rift in Tome 12: Discordance if you are interested; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apPl2uVaN2M]
If it is missing, check the cosmetic store to make sure it is purchased from there, if it is not shown as purchased or the transaction did not properly go through, then you can file a support ticket with photo evidence that you are missing the cosmetic, even stuff such as proof of purchase can help as well.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Automatic bloodweb, but one thing I love in DbD recently...
The art design is one of the best I've seen.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8R5481I9F9ZR/image.png
I want more
Art design is definitely pretty good.
I personally like running this outfit for Spirit. The HOY Headpiece matches the body way too well, they almost look like they are meant for one another.
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@Nirgendwohin said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FFOQ7QMD24XZ/grafik.png
there are these fancy red backgrounds.
I miss seeing them. I had most Survivors and Killers with the background on my Console account, but since I moved to PC I had to leave them behind.
I remember a lot of people were upset that BHVR didnt give more to players, but honestly, I thought it was pretty neat. It's simple, but really nice.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387121#Comment_3387121
Ok? So how does these changes do anything there? You need SB+OTR to counter the proxy+tunnel. So are we to not change the game because you need 1 more perk as a new player?
Yea very true. And I see the healing taking longer encourages playing the entire map more. Then you add on the fact that SB is meta which pairs amazing with OTR and I don't see the problem. The issue I see is players make it seem that all injured with one down is a problem that shouldn't be in the game. The problem in that case, outside a few killers, is a skill issue.
Making injuries matter more does make it rewarding for both sides playing skillful. Camping Is better when you injure everyone and I don't see, again outside a few killers, how there is a buff there when kick and PR were gutted. Unskilled camping is nerfed while skilled camping is buffed.
Even with the perk nerfs, I still think camping will be improved.
SH: Pain Resonance, for example, if you are camping the hook, and paired it with Dead Man’s Switch, you don’t need more than 4 activations anyways.
Deadlock remained unchanged.
No Way Out remained unchanged.
With a full build dedicated to slowing down the match while camping has basically not been changed and/or has hardly been nerfed. And now they will have more options to camp with because of Sloppy Butcher and Coulrophobia.
Again, this does have impact upon all skill levels.
I just wish skill was more rewarded, when I play Killer well, I want to feel like I am rewarded for playing well. And I feel horrible from the idea that someone sitting in front of the hook, not moving, could do better than any of my efforts. It feels worse as Survivor of course, seeing someone put the bare minimum amount of effort and watching my team crumble to pieces, like a cookie breaking apart.
But can I blame them? It is the smarter play after all, it is rewarded more after all, it takes less effort after all. This, this is where I have an issue in. You can buff the rewards of getting a hit, to reward skill, but the lack of impactful changes towards camping just is a complete takeaway to me.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387094#Comment_3387094
Which is why I mentioned some killers might need to be looked at. Outside some killers that statement is true.
At the soft cap it is all swf basically. I legit break 3+ mins runs in my soloq games and will auto-lose every match. The changes make skillful play more rewarding. It is a step in the right direction in fixing soloq. Is the matchmaking actually broken or is skillful play not rewarded enough where skilled players can't win games consistently without playing certain playstyles(lonewolf). Also the massive amount of handholding for killer is removed which should also help in this regard.
I don't think that is an issue for new players. Are new killers playing like it's a comp match? You're not wrong in needing those perks, but are there players doing that stuff as new players?
You act like new players don’t camp and tunnel?
Camping and tunneling exists in all skill levels, since people are naturally going to make the smarter play over the more skilled play, especially if playing smarter is more rewarding.
Being skilled and improving should be rewarding to the Killer, this change without changing anything to camping will make the less skilled (but smarter) play more rewarding in my opinion. Which is partly where I take issue.
This affects everyone, it has a bigger impact on newer/experienced players, but I think it will still impact all MMR ranges to some degree, to better clarify.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387050#Comment_3387050
You are describing a very specific scenario where a killer is camping and somehow managed to injure the whole team so no one can save.
First of all, it’s not a bad idea to camp / proxycamp / back to defend the hook in this situation. The survivors made huge mistakes for allowing this to happen. Giving a hook state in this situation so the whole team can reset is not a bad trade. After the save, the rescued survivor has to hide and repair like a rat the rest of the trial.
Also in your scenario, no one is using reassurance. This perk is not that rare.
“Giving a hook state in this situation so the whole team can reset is not a bad trade,” tell me, which is better?
- 1 hook spread across 3 different Survivors.
- 3 hooks on a single Survivor (sacrificed).
Why wouldn’t the Killer just tunnel the Survivor who gets unhooked? They have no reason not to.
I do not think you understand what I am trying to say in the slightest. Just because a play is skillful, does not mean it is smart, and vice versa. People are naturally going to make the smarter play because it is more rewarding than the skillful play. Camping will increase, because people are going to take the path of least resistance, especially if you aren’t rewarded as much or are punished by making the more skillful play. “Work smarter, not harder.” As a result, situations like this become more common because skill is not properly rewarded and camping is being (in)directly buffed.
Also, I rarely see Reassurance or Kinship in my matches, I maybe see one every 20-30 games. Also this doesn’t even consider some areas do not allow for Reassurance to be used easily (basement, most notably). And again, newer/less experienced players are taking the hugest hit, since they are not equipped or ready to deal with such, amplified by the fact that Killers can do it at any skill level with little effort (as mentioned before, path of least resistance).
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387017#Comment_3387017
Think it's just general heal increase and they didn't notice how recovery being longer will be problematic. On of the reasons to do a PTB to find some things that make it past their testing.
If a killer can injure all 4 survivors and get a down then that's a skilled thing for the killer. I see it basically saying the devs shouldn't reward skilled plays. Certain killers might need looking into but that isn't a problem imo.
Soloq is terrible because of matchmaking. How does MM work if you can't even win games running the killer for minutes. The new changes reward that skilled plays by survivor which in turn should ideally help or work toward making the MM better for soloq.
PVP don't balance their entire game around new players. You see healing being an issue as a new player you rock claud for Botany.
Hmmm.
- “If the Killer can injure all 4 Survivors and get a down, then that’s a skilled thing to do,” ya know it isn’t hard to play Legion, nor is it hard to use a map offering and Never Sleep Pills. As someone who plays Killer (and Survivor) A LOT, with CoH being nerfed, having and maintaining injures on Survivors is going to be rather easy in most matches, especially when paired with anti-healing perks.
- “SoloQ is terrible because of matchmaking,” I agree, but at the same time, if you make matchmaking strict Killer becomes significantly more stressful, and you’ll never hear the end of it from the forums. Tis’ a double edged sword.
- ”You see healing bring an issue as a new player, you rock Claud for Botany,” and new players are expected to run perks for every situation. They need stuff for healing, camping, tunneling, basic information, generator repairs, etc. The game is already incredibly hostile to new players and this amplifies that issue even more.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387017#Comment_3387017
And yet soloQ survivors are able to beat legion and plague.
Seems like they are able to repair generators while being injured.
I don’t think you understand what I am trying to say.
When you face a Legion or Plague, they play normally and chase Survivors. 95% of them do not camp from my experience.
I am pointing out problematic gameplay that can occur as a result of these changes. Those 5% of people who do camp are going to have an easier and more rewarding time doing so.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386970#Comment_3386970
- I am pretty sure the recovery change is unintended.
- There are 3 survivors to save not 2. Also it’s just a few seconds more to completely erase the killer pressure and yes, you have free perks to deal with this…if you don’t want to use free healing perks to heal faster it’s a choice and you will succeed more easily in other objectives categories. I don’t think the game is supposed to be balanced around 4 perkless survivors vs the killer. Devs are taking into account exhaustion , healing, and repair perks to balance. I mean, I hope so.
The recovery change is very much intended, at least it seems like it.
- If they wanted to slow down healing only, they would simply reduce the c/s for healing and items.
- BHVR increased the amount of charges needed for a health state, this means it takes 24 charges to recover/heal a health state, recovering at 0.5 c/s (half the base healing speed).
Also this is ignoring the elephant in the room with camping; if 3 Survivors are healing just to counter someone camping, no one is doing Generators. The Killer is progressing their objective but the Survivors aren’t progressing theirs. Either way camping is significantly more beneficial for the Killer while involving significantly less effort.
This is made further complicated when you have SoloQ since coordinating healing becomes more difficult compared to SWF. This isn’t even considering some Killers are especially good at injuring Survivors, so even when an unhook occurs, the Killer can just undo all that healing and start the process all over again.
And as I mentioned before, brand new/less experienced players are going to suffer the most from these changes. They are not going to have the perks necessary to deal with this. And even F2P players are going to take a hit with perks like Reassurance being locked behind a paywall while Kinship gets unironically nerfed.
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Not a Survivor main (I play both sides evenly) and even I can answer a few of these:
- “Why is it the end of the world to add a few second to healing?” because camping becomes increasingly problematic, 24 seconds for a heap means two Survivors have to spend 48 seconds to heal, meaning they have 12 seconds to make an unhook. With certain perks, it can make it physically impossible to do anything. Sidenote, the changes to healing also change recovery time, it takes 48 seconds to recover from the dying state, this isn’t factoring in perks like Knockout. I think it can promote unhealthy playstyles for the game.
- ”It isn’t bad when you have perks to deal with this,” but what about people who do not run meta perks? Running something like Botany Knowledge, Autodidact, or We’ll Make It to counteract a basekit nerf effectively reduces the amount of perks people can/will run; this affects people who don’t run meta and also further causes more issues since the teams that bring meta will just use Generator Repair perks now that regression is dead. Also the people who will be affected the most by these changes negatively a newer/less experienced players, who already have a horrible time as it is, and will likely not have access to the perks they need, which is concerning.
- Circle of Healing was a decent change honestly, not that mad about it, I wish Boon: Dark Theory got a buff though, it’s got nothing going for it.
- Call of Brine needed a nerf since it made Surveillance a useless perk. As a Surveillance enjoyer, I’m glad Call of Brine was changed in some way.
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@WesCravenFan said:
It will never be "easier than it has ever been" for either side.
Killers no longer have instant death murders with the old Moris.
Survivors no longer have true infinites and insta-pop gens.
Claiming either side is in its easiest state ever is just a flat out lie. Like, it's not even an opinion at this point. It's like saying 2+2=37.
As much as I hate to say it, I very much agree with you on this one.
Difficulty, in of itself, is a hard thing to measure to begin with, since some things come naturally to some but not to others. I personally find Killer significantly easier and more relaxing to play than Survivor since I can control the flow of the match with my own decisions, meanwhile as Survivor, I feel like I am at the mercy of my teammates; other people have an easier time with Survivor than Killer. Everyone handles things differently, so difficulty is measured different from person to person.
Furthermore, "difficulty" and "application of skill" are sometimes non-factors in DBD, just because something is skillful to do does not necessarily make it smart to do (and vice versa). It is often better to make the smarter play than the skillful play, yet by doing so, the other side will always complain about how it is unfair (this applies to Survivor and Killer). The highest possible difficulty that can be achieved does not matter if people are always going to play smart and take the path of least resistance, Billy's low pick-rate is a prime example of this. But this could be it's own topic so I digress.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384931#Comment_3384931
If one party is prioritizing their fun over all else by willfully making life miserable for the other party, knowing full well the experience is almost certainly miserable for the other party, that's bullying.
"I'm not trying to win (or accomplish anything, really), but we're just having fun at your expense, sorry not sorry" is bullying BS. It's the exact same mentality schoolyard bullies have. Full stop.
And who cares if the end result is a win? The dead survs don't care because they weren't trying to win, and the killer almost certainly had a miserable time.
Almost every time I face a group like this, they end up dead by one means or another, but that almost always follows 20-30 minutes of tedious nonsense that I didn't enjoy one bit. I'd rather get get rinsed in 5-6 minutes by a comp squad than spend half an hour indulging some entitled friends on a power trip.
And the hilarious thing is that if you respond by doing something like slugging them all (if they are a B.O./Sabo crew), they'll usually get salty af and DC, because they weren't having fun anymore.
So yeah, it is a power trip. If all your focus is on frustrating the killer with one particular tactic, it's easy AF. The game isn't designed for that. It's designed for the survs to try to get out via completion of their objectives, and the killer to try to kill them. And every person who loads into a public match should reasonably expect that the game will play out under some variation of those conditions.
From my experience (as a really old player), if this were like 2016-2018, I would agree back then, nowadays I do not agree.
I think engaging with these people is interesting and unique compared to normal matches, and BHVR has given the Killer more opportunities and avenues to properly deal with teams like this. The power of Survivors has been downscaled significantly through the years which makes these "power trips" much more like a stroll in the park (from my experience).
And coming from someone who occasionally hops in a 4-man SWF with flashlights, I am never trying to make the Killer mad, my goal is to have interactions with the Killer, and often I have a lot of nice and wholesome interactions with people in the community. And I think it is overall nice to take a break from trying my hardest every single match to escape, and I can use the time to improve my looping knowledge and mechanic skill at the game without such stress (and has lead to my improvement in the game).
I do think there is application where this is not bullying, there is application where it can be bullying, but I think instantly labeling a team as a "bully squad" is stupid. But by your logic, as soon as the opposing side is not having a fun time it is "bullying" which I disagree with since intentions matter. What if the Killer focuses a Survivor and kills that Survivor as 5 generators still remaining, is that bullying? Everyone else is having a bad time as a direct result of the Killer's actions, even if their intentions are not malicious, but by your logic, it would be bullying, but it really isnt.
People can play how they want, both Survivors and Killers, and saying otherwise is literally gatekeeping. And again calling these people "bullies" takes away from actual problematic behavior within the community. There are people who literally target and harass POC and LBGT+ members of the community yet those people face little to no repercussion for their actions, but the community get their pitchforks and torches when 4 people just mess around with flashlights. Think about that.
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@[Deleted User] said:
While I agree some people do overuse the term and call any well coordinated team a "bully squad", which they are not. I have also know of SWF teams and their sole purpose is to try and frustrate the killer so much that they DC or give up and stand in a corner. Yes, bully squad is an apt description for these teams.
I covered this in another reply to someone else.
The difference between people just trying to play the game and actual bullying is intentions; if someone has the intention of making people upset, I consider that to be taking things outside of the game, and I consider it bullying; but someone playing for their own enjoyment is completely different because the intentions are not to make others mad or upset.
Sometimes though, even if someone has the intentions of having their own fun, it can make the people on the other side of things upset and angry even if they was not their intention. In this instance, I still do not think it is bullying because the intentions are not malicious.
Im just tired of people throwing around "bully squad" and "bullying" so loosely, it covers up actual bullying and harassment that occurs.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384892#Comment_3384892
Nah, I think it's power trip. If you've got four friends who are decent enough at the game and coordinate things like flashlight saves and locker stuns well, there's little risk, and even if the killer is good, the team is in a position of power since they're not even trying to anything else (gens/escape).
People often rightly accuse many killers as being on a power trip, but bully squads are the same thing. Trying to toy with the killer.
And yeah, if the four survs are having a blast but the killer is deeply frustrated/annoyed, that's pretty much your classic irl bullying scenario. You can be toyed with and frustrated or DC, but the survs are having fun so it's not bullying? Yeah, not so much.
People should have a reasonable expectation that when they queue up they're going to get a game where people are trying to play the game as intended, even if they get their butts kicked. If people want to do stupid hijinks for fun, they should do it in kyf, not public matches.
"There is little risk" ... "They're not trying anything else (gens/escape)"
Except there is a risk, you literally just said it yourself. They are doing nothing to progress the match and they WILL 100% lose. When DBD is based on killing as Killer and surviving as Survivor, then dying is considered the "risk" factor according to the game's core design.
"That's pretty much your classic IRL Bullying scenario"
I heavily disagree. If I load into a FPS game, and I constantly die over and over, I am definitely not having fun. Is the person killing me a bully? No, they are playing the game. Their intentions are to have their own bit of fun, and sometimes it comes at the expense of others, but that does not make them a bully.
What makes the difference between "playing the game" and "bullying" is intentions, you are very blatantly ignoring that not everyone has the intention of making others mad.
"If people want to do stupid hijinks for fun, they should do it in KYF, not public matches"
(Radio Announcer Voice:) Just in, having fun is only restricted to private matches. Every public match must be an absolute sweatfest where everyone takes the matches competitively, as if money were on the line.
Think about this realistically. DBD is a game. Games are made for people to have fun on. Sometimes matches are unfun for some people, that's just how things go, but throwing labels on people based on such is pointless and takes away from the actual issues in the game.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384862#Comment_3384862
I think the "bully squad" term is overused and often misused; a team that just kicks your butt or otherwise demoralizes you just by being really good is not a bully squad.
On the other hand, if a coordinated team goes into a game with no real intention of pursuing their objectives (gens/escape), but instead intend to only engage and harass the killer at every opportunity (spamming flashlight saves, locker stuns, Boil Over/Sabo fiascos, etc., then yeah, it's accurate. That's a bully squad, and unless you know beforehand that the killer is in on it, it's bullying behavior.
It's a crappy way to play, and people who do it should be called out on it.
I disagree. Being chased is the most fun aspect of the game for many Survivors, so having the opportunity to only have chases and ignoring the objective for the sake of personal fun does not constitute bullying.
"But it comes at the expense of the Killer's fun" is a common argument I see, but their intentions are NOT to make the Killer mad or upset, their intentions are to have fun and interact with the Killer, and just like any other game it sometimes does come at the expense of the other side. I dont see any different from any other game, just suddenly in DBD it becomes "bullying" which I dont agree with.
Bullying, in my opinion, only happens after/outside the match. If you attack or harass someone after the match/outside of the game, or directly make something personal (intentional targeting), then it is bullying.
And frankly, Id rather face off against teams playing for fun instead of winning than deal with 4 BNPs or medkits every match.
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There is inherently an issue with DBD's core design. Since the game is a 4v1, you have to make Killer undesirable in some way, or at least less desired than Survivor. Survivor is not necessarily "easy" compared to Killer, though it is less stressful to play Survivor compared to Killer. The game has created a situation where the only thing dictating who plays what roles is the amount of stress and pressure there is.
As a Killer, you are alone, all your efforts matter, your decisions (and mistakes) carry more impact, which makes it overall more stressful. Survivor is not necessarily "easier", but there are things that remove tension between impactful actions, such as doing Generators or Totems between chases, etc. Because of this, I feel like players will often just never touch Killer because they think/feel that it is overwhelming compared to Survivor.
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@fulltonon said:
If more than 2 survivors are injured, it's already not a "camping" nor "tunneling" at that point.
There is decent amount of times BEFORE someone gets hooked, as people can chase and buy time, it's not as problematic as people think it to be.
You are forgetting that some Killers have the ability to spread pressure or health states easily BEFORE actually hooking a Survivor:
- Legion's Feral Frenzy
- Blight's Mobility/Ability
- Huntress's Hatchets
- Trickster's Knives/Main Event
- Artist's Crows
- Wesker's Mobility/Ability
- Literally any stealth Killer employing Hit and Run
- Twins (Victor)
- Nemesis's Zombies
- Knight's Guards
Also just because you camp and tunnel doesnt mean other Survivors wont get injured in some way. What is the point of camping if you cant stop the unhook? It's not like the Survivors are instantly going to shiver their timbers and not unhook (unless it is Bubba), the entire point in camping is to bring the Survivors to you (and pressure them at the same time) otherwise the Survivor on hook is left to die.
And focusing all your efforts on a single Survivor is not optimal, tunneling to win realistically involves you pressure Survivors between hooking the same Survivor anyways, otherwise you are objectively losing out on pressure AND ruining the day of that one Survivor at the same time; you want to make the match a 3v1, but you still got to pressure the other Survivors.
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@Blueberry said:
"I disagree, a majority of the community plays SoloQ so it does have a huge impact and isnt a waste of time."
Pretty sure we saw stats recently that didn't agree with this. Especially at higher mmr almost all matches are at least a duo minimum.
You essentially never answered my point though. How do we nerf swf without hurting solo queue. Almost everything you do for swf is gonna hurt solo queue.
Again, as I stated, self-healing specifically is what needed a nerf. Altruism should be rewarded.
Medkits specifically removed Killer pressure way too quick, Circle of Healing was way too easy to set-up and let SWFs cycle out Survivors to take hits without any downsides. They were problematic for most M1 Killers and were incredibly frustrating to deal with. Self-reliance, in of itself, can be problematic in some instances, not so much in others, but with healing it definitely was an issue, I think most people can agree on that.
Altruism is a different case, since it brings Survivors together and allows you to pressure multiple people. Altruism should always be rewarded because it directly benefits the Killer by wasting more time overall, since it requires at least 2 Survivors. Altruism can also work in the benefit of the Killer since SWFs can take hits (even when not necessary) which spreads pressure and requires two Survivors to heal back any damage done (1 in chase, 2 healing, 1 on a generator... aint that bad). "Altruism is their greatest strength, yet altruism is their greatest weakness."