HectorBrando
HectorBrando
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DBD has also way more content and updates, the more you tamper with the code of any program the bigger the risk of making bugs.
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Old Undying was disgusting and extremely broken on high mobility Killers, having to cleanse 4 totems WHILE the Killer reads you aura while you cleanse is absurd.
CoH needs tweaking but bringing back bad designed stuff is not the answer, what could be the answer to Blight+Old Undying+Ruin+Tinkerer+BBQ? first iteration DS?.
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@AnObserver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2738955#Comment_2738955
It’s not okay for that kind of behavior. Though what I’m getting at is that in regards to racism, Smartface is more about direct and immediate symbolism with historical context whereas Facecamping is more about repeated use of a feature in a targeted manner in order to showcase intent.
While the problem area for Smartface is quite literally the thing itself, the problem area for targeted harassment with Facecamping is pattern recognition to showcase social Intent, rather than purely the action itself.
You can say that Facecamping is a poor gameplay experience, and address it in that manner, but you cannot say that Facecamping automatically has racist context. You need additional information.
What I mean is there is a problem with very few selected "elements" targeting a minority and making their experience ingame as miserable as possible, also they used Smartface cosmetic.
The cosmetic got removed, does the problem went away with it? are they going to do anything else or will they just "facecamping and bming on hook is part of the gameplay experience" and call it a day when the same exact thing keeps happening but with base Leatherface?.
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@AnObserver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2738241#Comment_2738241
The difference between trying to write-off the Smartface Blackface as "It's Lore accurate" and a Player playing Bubba and only targeting marginalized characters is that while Bubba might have been an equal-opportunist skin-flayer, He also killed indiscriminately. So targeted harassment can't be written off as easily.
What I mean is Smartface got removed because it was used by some trolls to target a minority and harass by using it while tunneling, facecamping and bad mannering on hook.
Smartface is gone, do the developers expect for those trolls to behave like human beings and stop tunneling, facecamping and bad mannering now? What are they going to do once they realize the exact same thing keeps happening without the cosmetic? If someone targets an specific minority and makes its personal crusade to make the game miserable to them its ok because they now lack a cosmetic?.
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You raise a very interesting point because as you say, all the videos had tunneling and facecamping as means to harass those players, having the Leatherface mask was just the cherry on the top.
One thing Im certain is the people behaving like that wont stop because some cosmetic item has been eliminated, also while not 100% sure Im willing to bet the whole ordeal is just going to add fuel to the fire and the trolling is going to get worse, now they know they are pissing off a lot of people AND the developers, trolls crave attention and they got a metric ton of it, they got encouraged.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2737710#Comment_2737710
Not familiar with the specific situation but financially supporting homophobes is just as bad IMO 🤷
I think its even worse, you help promote those views AND you get to keep face unless someone digs it and exposes you.
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@Gwinty said:
How about we keep it hidden but add the mechanic of Hex: Plaything to it: Survivor can see the aura when within x meters from the boon. Something around 16m should be fine.
NoeD in itself is not a problem but I get the lack of counterplay. Its hidden nature is not part of the problem, Killers deal with hidden nature perks all the time and they do fine.
Nah I think the best way of changing NOED would be the more dull Totems standing the stronger it is, with 5 its broken, like massively broken something like "reveal all Survivors auras, everyone is exposed and +5% speed" or something like that, with 1 left its a minor buff to speed.
I believe the biggest problem is not the lack of counterplay, its the fact you (as in yourself) can cleanse 4 Totems, all gens get done and you are the one eating it full, it feels unfair having wasted all that time for the perk to activate just because 1 extremely well hidden totem was still standing or the Killer pressure you so much you literally couldnt cleanse the last one. With a change like this the Survivors would get punished for not cleansing 1 or 2 Totems and rewarded for taking their time to cleanse, overall making games last longer and punishing genrushers.
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In my opinion its because how ez-modo stomp-a-lot players mindset work, AKA Spike. The Spike mindset cares only about winning no matter what, its the only thing that matters, these kind of players tend to gravitate towards the easiest most efficient way of raking in wins, in fighting games theyll always play S+ tier characters using the easiest cookiecutter combos, in RTS the cheesiest strats, in shooters the safest weapons etc, Spikes come in 2 varieties, the skilled and the nonskilled, the less skilled the cheesiest they become for they need to be carried by higher tier things to compensate their lack of skill.
Now DBD is no exception, there is a big chunk of players that care only about 4K (or 4E but this thread is about Spirit so Ill skip talking about Survivors), this forum is a living example of it, now into the matter at hand, Spirit until the nerf was one of the 3 strongest Killers with Blight and Nurse but it is the easiest of those 3, is mindnumbing easy, almost boring... unless your only source of fun is to 4K every game.
This is where the less skilled Spikes come into play, they want 4K and they go for the most efficient and easiest way of getting them so they gravitated towards Spirit, then Spirit got nerfed and suddenly they perceived it wasnt as easy to get the 4K as before (debatable, Spirit is still strong) so they changed pastures and picked Wraith, who is the new easy and efficient Killer, especially certain addon setups and at certain MMRs where SWAT teams are not prevalent.
This has been happening since 2017, first it was Instasaw Hillbilly, then it got nerfed and Spirit took the throne, then she got nerfed (added vault animation and prayer bead nerf) and people went to Forever Freddie, then he got nerfed so Spirit retook her throne and now she got nerfed again and people went to Wraith, when Wraith gets tweaked these kind of players will switch to something else (my money is on Plague).
P.D. the whole Spike thing is not an invention of mine, its an archetype the guys from Magic The Gathering found among their playerbase, the 3 main archetypes are Timmy, Jonhy and Spike, look it up because its very interesting, it explains in a simple way why this game is increadible frustrating for certain people, especially with the 2K/2E mindset the devs have.
P.D.2 This doesnt mean all Spirit players are Spikes or unskilled, there are people who genuinely like her playstyle and these are the people who didnt switch after her 2 nerfs, same with people who like Hillbilly, Freddie or whoever gets the light now, the difference is these players will stick around with the Killer even if they lose the S+ ranking (unless they nerf way too much where it becomes unplayable, like Legion current status where even the people who like them dont play them anymore because they are way too weak).
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No, it will encourage trolls even more, trolls get stronger the more they see you angry at them.
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@Regulus47 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728803#Comment_2728803
But the chainsaw attack would end when he got too close to the hook. Like when it runs out of charges.
He would just wait until the unhook then or saw the saviour before he gets 3 meters close to the hook (which is also the best outcome of a facecamping situation, saviour down and no unhook). Or switch to Trickster or Huntress (who are also incredible strong facecampers).
Problem is not Leatherface/Killers camping but it being so hard to punish by Solo Survivors which makes the strat so appealing, if BHVR somehow manages to give Solos a way of punishing facecamping where a Killer doing this ends the game with only 1 Kill maybe they will stop doing it.
The problem with camping wont be solved with new systems that can be abused by Survivors or by tweaking Killers one by one and change how they work around hooks, or with perks etc, it will be solved once it starts to not pay off, unless that happens people will keep finding ways of doing it and raking in 3-4 kills.
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He would use it within 4 meters of a hook.
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@TheMadCat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728602#Comment_2728602
I'm working usually super early in the morning to have my afternoon free. 2 PM-9 PM CET is the time I play. I didn't notice anything special about the players I'm matched with/against...
Because if you always play on the same timetable you will never see any difference, I work shifts so I can play pretty much at any time of the day.
This applies to Europe, in my experience before 14:00 CET Survivor queues are shorter and Killer ones longer and you will find more toxic Killers, between 14:00 and 22:00 both queues are rather short and the teams pretty similar in skill, youll get the best matches in this bracket and after 22:00 CET Killer queues are shorter and Survivor queues grow exponentially, youll find more toxic Survivors and the biggest skill disparity between teams, you could be paired with the Special Forces or with newcomers with 40 hours in the game (both as Killer and Solo).
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728065#Comment_2728065
'Voice comms have a huge problem, in Europe not everyone speaks the same language. Dont know about Asian servers but if Chinese, Japanese and Koreans get thrown in the same servers you have the same problem.'
Odd that that does not seem to be a talked-about problem for Overwatch, or CS:GO, or LoL, or DoTA...Why would this game be so magically different that regions would not allow voice comms?
Not the exact same, those have text chat and you dont need to know english to understand "mid" "ward plz" "all B" "Bastion OP" etc and I played Dota2, believe me voice comms with random people were a HUGE problem sometimes certain people decide to start screaming in anger because they got ganked or starts blasting techno music high enough to cause pain in your eardrums.
IF DBD voice comms also included text it would be the same as those and I would retire my argument about it.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728028#Comment_2728028
Good lord. They still can't admit a mistake, can they?
If they want to bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ; Just. Add. Voice Comms. Then balance Killers around that.
Boom: SoloQ has the exact same advantages as SWFs, and Killers can be balanced around it. Easy bloody fix. No need to tiptoe with half-measures.
But nope! They once said that voice comms barely affect the game, and they need to spend at least 4 years riding that stance into the ground before they will possibly, maybe admit that they might be, just a little but not really, wrong. Like their stance on Phase 2 of the Hook for years. 🤦♂️
Voice comms have a huge problem, in Europe not everyone speaks the same language. Dont know about Asian servers but if Chinese, Japanese and Koreans get thrown in the same servers you have the same problem.
@LoneSlinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2727984#Comment_2727984
I typically agree with you GoodBoyKaru but I'd bet 5 dollars rn that the killer buffs if we get any tomorrow will read like
' hiting someone as legion doesn't reduce the cool down on FF as much"
And
"Billy's chainsaw now returns to normal after overheating slightly faster"
I dont think they should be giving big buffs to Killers if they intend to implement a form of comunication for Solo, once it gets implemented the game will change drastically and a lot of stuff will have to be rebalanced so its better if they dont waste time on stuff that may have to change again in a few months, for Killers they should put QoL, bug fixes, minor buffs to the weakest links like Legion and redesign/buff the worst perks (Insidious, Monstrous Shrine, Overwhelming Pressence, all Huntress perks etc), changes to CoH and stuff like that.
What I mean is since the game balance is going to get screwed hard when Solo gets comms is best if they leave it alone for a while and focus on fixing stuff (except things that are in dire need of some tweaking like Legion).
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2727970#Comment_2727970
It’s the same killer community that still thinks DS is OP. I’m not really surprised if they do cry unless the devs give them the ability to block all gens for the whole match.
Make it you block the gens for the whole match and your next one and MAYBE it may be perfectly balanced.
@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2727984#Comment_2727984
Nothing like that ever happens though lol
That happens every time a Survivor perk gets buffed or a Survivor gets announced at least with one of their perks, if I had a cent every time Killer mains have gone bonkers over useless stuff or buffs to non meta perks I would be made of copper... lets see the list:
- Lucky Break: When it got buffed people claimed it would be stronger than Iron Will, still not meta altough you may see it from time to time.
- Any Means Necessary: On release it would break the game, nobody used it, on buff it would break the game, still nobody uses it, most people who do rarely get any value out of it.
- Breakout: SWFs sabo squads would bully the heck out of Killers, nobody uses and usually backfires, giving the Killer free hits or even free downs.
- For the People: SWFs would just insta heal any downed teammate making it impossible to hook people, nobody uses it and half the time it backfires.
- Soulguard: OMG INFINITE UNBREAKEABLE OP, only gets used with Unbreakable and its so niche half the people know you have BT effect from it.
- Desperate Measures: SWFs would abuse this hard to end the split damage strat, nobody uses it.
- Build to Last: When it got buffed it was supposed to send the Survivors into a golden age of genrush, math shows it actually makes gens slower, nobody uses it anyway (decent for medkit builds tho).
- Smash Hit: Claimed to be stronger than Sprint Burst, its actually much worse, probably the worst exhaustion perk tied with Head On, nobody uses it.
- Boon Exponential: Refer to Soulguard.
- Overcome: It was supposed to end the era of Dead Hard and start the era of "HOLD W IS OP"... you guess it, nobody uses it (not that bad but holding W is very situational and SB and DH are way more reliable).
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^^
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@SunsetSherbet said:
Yeah I used to think it was extremely silly but then I actually had to go to home depot for some tools and they actually do have screw drivers that long. No, Look-see's wrench I have to believe is actually truly oversized. What needs a wrench that big?
We have wrenchs that big in the refinery I work, we use them for the bigger pipes or for regular ones IF the piece is stuck, the longer the wrench the more force it applies.
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Its an industrial grade screwdriver, the ones at home are not that long because you will never need to reach screws so deep in a machine/furniture but in certain jobs you may need to have screwdrivers of varying sizes because you dont have room to get your arm near the screw.
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@Tr1nity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2725984#Comment_2725984
Finally, we have found yzzulS
There were some pretenders to the throne obut they never managed to write the posts in the correct way so they always end up banned, lets hope this new challenger is up to the task (for how baity he/she usually is his/her manners, way of writing, lack of verbal attacks etc its impeccable and a lot of times does have a point but its taken to the extreme so Killer mains bite the bait like madmen).
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Its not a glitch, once you pick up the box chains will start spawming on you no matter how close you were to a chain hunt, this is done to stop people from kidnapping the box and dont letting it go the whole match. You have to solve before chains start spawming or once they stop, which happens after 2 or 3 have spawmed.
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@LoneSlinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2725833#Comment_2725833
They literally said it (ruin) was nerfed because it was overused word for word
Not exactly, they said it was overused true but they also said it applied pressure with 0 interaction and Ruin decreased in effectiveness the higher you were since old red rank Survivors could land most Ruin skill checks (which holds true, I remember landing around 80% of old Ruin skillchecks when you had to play against it in every match, high rank player just adapted to it), plus gen tapping was a dumb mechanic.
Mains always forget what they want to forget.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721473#Comment_2721473
@KayTwoAyy and I don't know each other and we both did two independent collections of data. I'm pretty sure @KayTwoAyy and I have been using the same tactic, I just called face-camping instead of proxy-camping. I assume what you are doing is Proxy-camping also?
I feel that both @KayTwoAyy and I have been extremely transparent on what we are doing. Sure I used the wrong term but if you've read the discussion, which is going on 11 pages, then you know what we are doing and can use whatever term you would like.
Well you know what they say, when a discussion devolves into semantics you have already won, at that point is just people refusing to yield.
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@PlayTwink said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721474#Comment_2721474
Even the wiki explains what the definition of ''dev'' means.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9DE89FR7ZVLZ/xddd1233445.png
There is a difference between "game developer" as in job and "game developer" as in the whole team.
Think of it as construction worker and construction team, if your job is to put bricks with cement to make walls you are a construction worker, if your job is to drive the truck taking sacks of cement and bricks from the warehouse to the construction site you are a driver and not a construction worker but you are still part of the construction team and you fall over the construction workers collective agreement and trade unions even if you arent technically a pure "construction worker".
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Myers results are not that weird, he performs extremely well against mixed teams because his power can be gained from the weaker links and used against the stronger ones, unlike everyone else except Oni.
You have 2 strong loopers and 2 weak, you stalk the weak ones, down them normally, use your 16/8 meter TR to sneak upon a strong player and end a chase in 10 seconds instead of 100, once the stronger links start to not be able to evade you for lengthy times the pressure ramps up exponentially and the whole team falls apart plus the stronger players start playing very conservative for they know they may get sneaked with 99% EW3 again.
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Right now? yes they are, as other people already said, it may get canned after some time but the official position right now is they are lookig on it and trying to make it less rewarding/easier to punish by Survivors.
https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?t=5213 -
I think Myers is better because he can 99% the instadown on the weaker links and use it against the strong looper after surprising him with his small TR to end a chase in 10 seconds instead of 100 while Ghostface has to stalk the strong player to be able to instadown him which may alert him, plus if somebody reveals him he either has to wait for the power to recharge or start a chase, hit and lose all stalk.
Imo the only thing Ghostface has over Myers is he is short and harder to detect and his stalk is consistent, it always takes the same amount of time instead of being distance dependant.
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In theory if you disable crossplay you can only play with your own platform, in your case Epic Games but if you dont find any game at all it may be because you are on low player hours or your desired role is saturated and has a massive queue.
Try switching role and see if you find a game in seconds or try playing in a different time of the day to test if its just low player hours.
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My guess is the forum managers read it whole, filter the posts and ideas and the ones that are actually worth it get sent to the developer team.
As for the people who actually tinker with the game? my guess is some of them probably on a daily basis, some of them from time to time and some probably never, in any case odds are developers mostly ignore rants, "OMG NERF THIS!!" and power trip threads/posts alltogether.
P.D. Semi-related to this, I would love to know what the developer team thinks of Sluzzyposting, I know theyll never tell but damn Im curious.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721343#Comment_2721343
Will this be before or after the early game collapse they said they'd do? And will it come before or after the "new report" feature they talked about? The devs make lots of claims and never follow through and just pretend it never happened. People are dismissing this idea of them fixing camping because they tried and it failed badly, and other times they talked about it, nothing came of it. I genuinely believe you're setting yourself up for massive disappointment.
Also a generator speed fix would need to be in the exact same patch as any camping fix. Not after, not "in the future" exact same patch, or enjoy every killer leaving. "We're gonna take away your tools but I promise one day will do something for you, just like with keys and mori's!" lol it either happens at the same time or never at all. Like seriously bro, you think ANY KILLER HERE is going to trust the devs if they removed camping and then said "we'll fix gens soon, promise" after the debacle of basically removing mori's and then taking a FULL YEAR to nerf key's? This dev team doesn't have the good will to ask me to believe in a promise of fixing killer issues AFTER nerfing them. I know this game's playerbase and dev's are very cocky, but I'd be a little careful about ensuring every remaining killer quits your game a few months before multiple competitors come out, during a time where we have actual data the game has been losing players every month for months now and we're down a good 30% since August on steam. Tens of thousands of people have stopped playing on steam and I have to assume on console, too, though we cannot see those numbers. It's time to stop thinking the devs can do anything at all and it won't cause irrepairable harm to their game. It's a 5 year old game with a pretty negative rep among a lot of people. It's not getting younger and there isn't an infinite playerbase of untapped people looking to play a 5 and a half year old bully sim.
Yeah, early game slowdown was in the talks and they canned it, they already said it was canned after a year, once they say "we dont have anything against facecamping" Ill consider the idea canned too but as it is now, camping is on the radar. Thats why I explicitly said "opinions change", same as they didnt consider camping a problem in 2017 and now they consider it, in 2022 they may change their mind again, in any case, right now they consider camping too rewarding so my point still stands and my video overrides the other older videos posted as proof that "camping is not considered as a problem by devs".
On your second point, Ill say the same I said before to Tsulan, this thread is to discuss OP experiment, camping and its consequences, lets not derail it with aboutthism, open a gen speed thread and Ill write my views there.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720826#Comment_2720826
Ain't no trap card been activated.
They don't have any particularly viable ideas to solve the camping issue and people have complained about it for 5 years. In 2020 they flat out said they have no plans to address. 2021 They still have no plans to address it and explain they don't know how to address it. There is no gotcha moment here. There is nothing that can be done about it without altering things in a substantial manner which quite frankly, hasn't been their style when it comes to universal mechanics directly involving objectives.
"Plans to make being facecamped less punishing (for the survivor)?, do we have anything in the works for that?" "We do, we are actually getting very excited on a meeting before..." and then he goes on a monologue about the problem being hard to counter and how it takes too much time to learn whats happening and react accordingly.
Thats the gotcha, you dismissed the whole thing with "they dont plan to change a thing because these 2 old videos say so" and you are wrong, the video I posted completely counters yours and mine being newer means its their mindset right now, they do have plans now because its starting to become a problem, they are just working on it. Opinions change and stuff thats not seen as troublesome may become it if people abuse it enough or it becomes an obstacle if it blocks other changes (for example you cant change gen timers if you dont fix camping first), happened with flashlights, they were fine, they werent a problem, in Q&As they dismissed them etc etc etc then flashlights got nerfed because it was shown they were actually a problem but it was a hidden one as not many people used them, once the cat was out of the bag they nerfed them harshly.
It wasnt their style to change things in a substantial way but that also is starting to change, first with the breakable walls, then with MMR and now with Boons its clear they are not as afraid as they were when trying to shake the game mechanics.
@Munqaxus About the 4th perk, try Lethal Pursuer once you unlock it as it eliminates the trouble of finding the first victim to get facecamped, it also lets you decide which one is going down according to where the basement may be if you wish to send someone there. The thing that counters facecamping the most right now is the Killer not being able to find someone fast for gens will have a big headstart before you down someone.
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Its not that you dont need a 4K its more of a "you shouldnt expect a 4K always", if you dont get 4K (or 3K+lucky hatch escape) on a regular basis is not the end of the world, same as Survivors shouldnt expect an escape always, if you die but you managed to do your part its not the end of the world either.
When I play Killer I dont expect to get 4K and I dont enter a match planning on sweating like if I were on a finnish sauna, if I get it nice, its the icing on the cake but as long as I have decent chases, good mindgames and enough hooks 2K is more than satisfying, the calmer you play the better you will perform, tension helps only your rivals and sweating as hard as some people do on this game is not good for your health (both sides included).
On a sidenote I almost never get any salt from Survivors and even if I 4K rarely any Survivor gets less than 15k points
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@ReikoMori said:
Let's just get this out of the way since folks are going to argue this hard.
This isn't even the first time they've said they have no plans. It's just one of the most recent.
https://youtu.be/uRFGT9JZZZo?t=22
Circa 2017, them expressing what is not even reportable, camping.
You have activated my Trap Card™, this video is way more recent (October 2021) than yours and lead game designer does say they dont want to get rid of camping but they notice is way too profitable for such a little investment, especially against Solos and they consider camping a thorn in their side but they dont know exactly what to do yet.
https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?t=5211 -
@UnknownKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718831#Comment_2718831
Or 3 curse perks.
Tought of that too and I wouldnt be surprised but Scourge hooks are a "Brand new mechanic™" and developers always shovel a ton of wathever they designed lately in their next updates, it happened with destructible walls, they put them in the game and then a lot of the reworked maps had way too many meaningless destructible walls especially Grave of Glenvale, The Game, Family Residence, Ormond and certain McMillan maps, now after some time the craze faded and they toned it down, new reworked maps have 1 or 2 meaningful walls.
I also expect Ring Survivor to have a Boon for the same reason.
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Situation 1 slug them, they still have to be picked up putting pressure on the rest and you may catch someone going there and down them too.
Situation 2 there isnt much you can do, try to bait the save, try to chase other Survivors or try to focus on gens situated far away from where those lockers are located (I believe not all lockers allow for those kind of saves but not sure).
Both things should be tweaked, especially the hook thing since certain maps do not have enough hooks in certain spots (Badham is a huge offender, if someone gets downed in the middle of the boiler room and the basement didnt spawn there you have to break the doors to be able to reach a hook).
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718873#Comment_2718873
There is a fourth one: killers that don´t care about anything and only want survivors to have a bad time. Those killers basically got bullied several matches in a row and now they take it out on the first survivor they find. Sort of like "if i can´t have fun, neither will you" thingy.
Years ago there was a proposal to give survivors inbuilt Kindred. Showing every other survivor where the other survivors and especially the killer was.
But luckily, this idea was scrapped. Because it would greatly improve survivors gen efficiency. Since only 1 survivor would run for a unhook. It would put killers (even the non camping ones) under even more pressure.
BBQ was a step into the right direction. Rewarding killers for hooking everyone once. The devs should continue on that path.
Thats either trolling or venting anger.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718731#Comment_2718731
Thats not what some people mean with punishment. The proposals for punishment seem to go as far as limiting players from playing and/or preventing them from earning any bloodpoints.
But instead we should reward killers that don´t camp with more bloodpoints.
And those proposals should be hastily ignored (and will be once they decide to act against facecamping).
In any case limiting BPs wont make a dent on the issue, people who camp do it for 3 motives:
- Trolling: being camped on hook is infuriating and a lot of people get a kick out of pissing off others, trolling is its own reward, they dont care about BPs.
- Venting anger: people who got angry because someone looped them too much, clicked their flashlights too much or tbaged, they dont care about BPs, they just want revenge.
- Securing a kill: otherwise they feel like they lost they care more about kills than BPs you could reduce the gains to 0 and still the importance of kills will override the 0 BPs, this is the only group who could care about BPs but then again, killing>bps.
The only real way to punish camping and making it less of an issue is if Survivors have an easier way of knowing when its happening and they react accordingly by rushing the gens left so if someone camps, they get only 1 kill, plus the camped person has the solace the other 3 got out and is less likely to tilt, reducing the odds of the troll getting a reaction from the camped person.
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My guess she will be a mix of Pinhead box and Demogorgon portals, she will have a secondary objective around the VHS tape and teleport around screens/reflectant surfaces.
For perks I suppose she will have a scourge hook one and at least one Hex, the whole Ring franchise being about a curse it makes sense for her to have at least one curse perk.
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@Roarbear2007 said:
I know how fix face camping just increase gens from 5 to 7. when killer hooks his first survivor and 3 gens pops he will be cool still have 3 gens better go find the other survivors. But there is the whole what about the low level survivors ill repeat what toxic survivors say they can just get good at the game.
Absurd, once Killer hooks his first Survivor he will facecamp even harder because now he knows Survivors wont be able to fix the gens before the hooked one dies.
Same thing "increase gen timers" doesnt solve facecamping but encourages it even more.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718556#Comment_2718556
Was face camping unfair and unhealthy? Absolutely! Thats why the devs made unhooking from every angle possible. Strangely enough, they kept the tight hook angle for the killer, which still can be body blocked by the survivors.
Now fearing a punishmend for playing a game in a intended way doesn´t really sound healthy to me.
Hell, i´ve even seen a thread where someone proposed "punishing killers with the removal of their entire bloodpoint gains for the next 2 matches, IF the killer was still in the hooks proximity after 10 seconds". Why would anyone even consider playing killer, if something like this was in place? We all know why the hook timer doesn´t pause when the killer is nearby. Because survivors simply looped the killer around the hook, to abuse the mechanic. If there was any way of punishment in place, i guarantee you that survivors would go out of their way to force that punishment on the killer they dislike playing against.
You brought up survivor queues. What do you think is the cause behind the growing survivor queues?
Having a punishment for playing the game in a way doesnt sound unhealthy to me, after all a lot of strats have punishments by either side, rush gens on the outskirts? get 3gened, predrop pallets in an excessive way? create deadzones, attempt a mass slug? people get picked up by the others, split damage? people get mass healed, put all your apples on the Hex basket? everything gets cleansed in the first minute etc etc etc, obviusly nobody is advocating for bans most people are asking for ways to know when a facecamp is happening so they can push gens without requiring Kindred.
Camping against Solos should have a stronger punishment by the Solos instead of what we have now, where camping is super effective against them.
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Autodidact, great when you get Sloppy Butcher or Legion, otherwise is not that great and CoH has overshadowed it.
@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
God Himself couldn't take Mettle of Man away from me.
Suicidal much?
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He already did in several videos but there isnt much to be told except "you said you would fix console problems and you didnt, people have been waiting for years now" so I wouldnt expect a whole video about it.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718494#Comment_2718494
I agree this is in no way a scientific study, I'm not going to cure cancer with this data, lol. However, I think this data is important because currently, the commonly held belief is that facecamping does not reward the killer and we can see from this data that it actually greatly rewards the killer. I did choose a killer who is famous for facecamping but if you look at @KayTwoAyy data a couple of posts above this one, you will see he was able to produce the same results with a Killer not-known for camping, with a 100% kill rate in the 10 games he played.
However, there is a reason I'm sticking with the same killer. It's because to get more accurate data, I have to get a lot of data points using the same setup. And for that, I have to play the same killer. I don't want to screw up my MMR on the killers I like to play, so I picked a Killer I'm not really fond of playing and haven't played in a long time.
I guess I should mention that I always play with 2 brown add ons, Vegetable Oil and Spark Plug. I also only use bloodpoint offerings.
I think the take-away here is that there is absolutely no data on facecamping up until now. Now players can see actual data on facecamping. I would be more than happy if other players tried the same thing with other killers, like @KayTwoAyy is doing, because there's just no way I can do 50ish games with each killer, facecamping the entire time. It's just too much for anyone to do.
I think @KayTwoAyy data with Nemesis is actually more telling than mine with Leatherface, since he's able to pull out a 100% win rate, facecamping with basically a M1 Killer and no way to stop unsafe saves.
Almost all Killers can camp in extremely efficient ways, first of all Save the Best for Last is one of the best M1 camping perks, you can down people even before they unhook and then you have the not so obvious great campers.
- Myers with 99% EW3.
- Huntress.
- Trickster, this one is a beast, his knive rapid fire guarantees you will down the saviour and probably the saved and he is so weak people underestimate how strong he is at camping so theyll try to unhook for sure.
- Deathslinger.
- Ghostface.
- Pyramid Head can down both saviour and saved with punishment.
- Doctor can zap you and stop an unhook.
- Basement Trapper or any Trapper where you can trap the hook entrances, it funnels the saviour towards you or gives you a free down if they step on a trap.
- Hag.
- Twins (altough you wont be hooked but slugged).
- And certain Killers with certain addons like Clown+Pinky
Plus some other options I forgot or didnt think of.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717640#Comment_2717640
Well lucky for you, face camping was removed with the introduction of swivel hooks. Problem solved!
Oh and on regard on the "survivors would waste to much time" thingy. Right now survivors HAVE to waste time in order to get a decent match for everyone. If survivors play as efficient as possible, then the match ends in less than 5 minutes and survivors escape with 11k bloodpoints.
Face camping doesnt only mean "blocking the hook" which isnt doable anymore, it means camping the hook within a very small distance, lets not devolve into "technicality" arguments like "your exact words could mean something a tiny bit different of what my words mean so your whole argument is invalid from your first post", this forums is a mess but I think it deserves better.
What kind of argument against punishing camping is "Survivors have to waste time looking for a match"? Do Survivors queue times affect gen times? Are gen times slashed by 40 seconds if they had to wait 5 minutes to get into a match? Do the guy who gets camped enjoy being camped after a long queue? one thing is the time you "waste" looking for a match from starting your computer, running the game, clicking search and waiting and another is the time you have inside a match to do what you have to do towards your objective, they dont relate on the slightest, dont derail.
Please, give arguments that counter my exposition about "camping is way too effective against Solos and so the punishment is not as hard as it should" instead of trying to derail the discussion, recurring to cheap semantic arguments or "whataboutthism" because right now you have given none.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717588#Comment_2717588
I should have made more pictures. Since they stayed almost the whole 80 seconds of the gen.
Oh and the "killers going bonkers" thing is more a direct reaction to how quickly gens go. Since it isn't exactly motivating to lose 3 gens by the time you get the first hook.
Doesnt matter, my argument about Solos having too little information to punish facecamping properly still stands, more screenshots wouldnt give a proper counter to what I say:
Solos still have to go near the hook, see the Killer there and go back to a gen wasting a lot of time, even if those 2 were to reach the hook and go back after confirming the camp you still had to finish 4 gens as 3, with those 2 having lost roughly ~25 seconds of gen work, lets say you finish yours, guy on hook dies, the other 2 are around 60-70%, Killer is free to patrol again and you still have to finish 3 gens, someone else gets downed and facecamped, now you have to finish 2 gens as 2 in those 120 seconds, perfectly doable, guy on hook dies, NOED activates and its a gamble if someone else goes down or you manage to open the gates before he finds another victim. Result of the game, best scenario is 2 kills and 2 escapes, worst is 3 kills for doing absolutely nothing with a strat that requires very little skill.
The problem is not Solos doing what you show on the screenshots, the problem is facecamping Solos leads to that situation because they lack info and in turn it makes camping much more effective (which they want to curb).
On another note we are talking about facecamping and punishment not about generator speeds, you can create another thread to discuss that, lets not derail the current one.
@Munqaxus I like your experiment.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717308#Comment_2717308
Look at the progress bar of my gen. They didn't exactly wait 10 seconds. But wasted more than a minute, by standing there and pointing.
Survivors can spend up to 120 seconds on the hook. More than enough time to complete a gen. Unless survivors waste that time and complain about camping.
Still, you have to reach the hook, notice the victim is getting camped and get back to your gen and resume work, thats roughly 20-30 seconds per Survivor just walking from one point to another if the Survivors dont have a decent lead on gen progress 120 seconds is not enough to finish all gens and open the doors.
Thats why the problem is "camping is way too rewarding against Solos", once everyone know whats happening and how to deal with it, you have around 70-80 seconds of hook time to work freely, not enough unless you have 2 gens worth of progress around the map and I suppose thats what they want to tone down, also one of the problems with camping is hardened Solo Survivors will rush the first gens asap because they know if they get a camper and have 0 progress nobody gets out so you cant afford to stop working on gens to cleanse dulls, open chests, set boons etc... lately and thanks to certain streamers, content creators and forum drama queens Killers are going bonkers with camping because "boons are countered by camping somehow" and people are adapting to it, its a vicious cycle and the result is overall worse games for everyone.
P.D. the progress bar on both hook and gen indicates around ~20 seconds elapsed.
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As a Solo player I can guarantee if Im far away from the hook odds are its on the team best interests I keep doing the gen Im doing than trying to unhook only to meet with another rescuer thus wasting work on gens, if Im close Ill rush after Killer is gone so the other 2 dont waste much time.
The problem with this mindset is occasionally nobody goes to rescue and someone goes into stage 2 but its very rare for this to happen, usually its just 2 or 3 people going for unhook, wasting a lot of efficiency, after a thousand games almost all Solos end up like this.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717155#Comment_2717155
The real problem is a different one. I think those 2 screenshots explain it better than 1000 words:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4M7NXHEREC4V/therealproblem1.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/06BJKI86LAEB/therealproblem2i.jpg
No, thats the exact problem me and the dev refer to, it actually supports my argument.
Against a camper Solos have no clue of the camping so they have to quit the gen, get there and either figure whats happening and walking away (which gives the Killer a lot of extra time since its work not being done on a gen) or being tricked and getting downed (which essentially dooms a third Survivor since now its almost impossible to get all gens done before those 2 die), thats why devs want to tone down how rewarding it is, especially against Solos.
Im almost sure in that screenshot only 1 got out tops (and using Hatch), since 1 is almost dead on hook, 1 down and 4 gens to go against a facecamper is a 3K most of the time.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717158#Comment_2717158
Survivors aren't just feeding me kills. Survivors don't have enough time to do gens. Nothing they do has any effect on Facecamping. I'm up to 14 games now and the survivors have thrown everything at me. Straight doing gens. Trying for Dead Hard/Borrowed Time saves. Dual Flashlight saves (Which was probably the game that survivors were most successful).
I just facecamped 1 survivor to death, then on to the next. So far, I have yet to see anything that is effective against facecamping and the survivors are much-much more skilled than I am most times. I suck with Leatherface, I'm using a no-skill tactic and I'm going against some really skills survivors and I'm coming out ahead.
This isn't the survivors fault at all.
From my Solo queue experience (which is the only Survivor experience I have) you can only punish a true dedicated facecamping build IF the team manages to do 2 gen worth of progress (1 gen done and 2 gens at 50% for example) before someone gets downed, if a Survivor gets downed without at least 1 gen worth of progress across the map doesnt matter if the other 3 gen rush, odds are at least 1 more person is going down in that match, especially if the basement is in the middle of the map or a small map.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2716987#Comment_2716987
Camping actually IS intended gameplay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04&t=125s&ab_channel=DeadbyDaylight
Timestamp 0:44
Also, if camping wasn´t intended gameplay, then why does Insidious exist?
So again, why punish killers for camping? Which obviously was intended from the beginning?
Camping is intended gameplay, what isnt intended is for it to be that effective against Solos, they already stated something like "we dont want to get rid of camping but we want to tone how effective it is" some months ago in a Dev diary or Q&A session.
What devs want is if you want to camp you are free to but take on account youll get severely punished, which almost never happens against Solos.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717005#Comment_2717005
Okay, first: Just because I say it can be done, doesn't immediately mean that I need to have the solution. If you see a rocket lift-off and then explode, you can easily say that it can be done without exploding without being expected to have the answer ready. My point is that the attitude of 'can't be done' shuts down discussion when we could come to a useful solution. But forum killers don't -want- a solution, so they just stick their heads in the sand and parrot the same dumb line: "It can't be done"
Secondly: What free perk slot? Unsafe unhooks would still be unsafe unhooks.
Thirdly:
Gen repair speeds are increased if, 20 seconds after hooking, the killer is within X radius of a hooked survivor. This buff is increased further for every remaining gen and every survivor actively working on a gen. This buff is decreased by survivors' proximity to a hooked survivor or the killer. This buff is disabled while the killer is in a chase, or if there's one or no gens left to be repaired.
Now it's your turn to pick it apart and we can figure out if we can patch it up to fix the problems you find.
I have a better solution, Hooks behave like Pyramid Head cages.
P.D. Wouldnt be surprised if cages are an old idea to get rid of camping seeing how everything Pyramid Head its barely related to its Silent Hill incarnation (Killer movement, power, perks, cages behaviour etc, they just got a lot of ideas and strapped them to a licensed character to rake in the hype and the monies).