Haddix
Haddix
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@Almo said:
We don't want it triggering on getting downed by an addoned Bear Trap, or going down to Deep Wound, etc. It's better game design if we don't start stacking up a series of exceptions.
Eh, why does that matter?
It's bad game design to have a perk like Tinkerer, which simply wouldn't work on some killers, or would restrict charge time addon values because they had to be balanced around Tinkerer. That where I see this being a mess. But this specific issue? I genuinely don't see the problem.
What would be problematic about a deep wound down (do you have stats on how often this happens? I've seen this happen about once and it was an afk player lol) applying knockout? What would be problematic about a trap causing knockout? Where does this become an issue? Like, what specifically about those things causing knockout would be problematic?
Is it good game design to make a significant change to something that could've had a good pairing with all the special attacks in the game, but change it because of extremely unlikely scenarios like a deep wound down (which, again, what about that would even be an issue? isn't there a scream bubble anyway?).
Can you specifically tell of a time or situation where this was an issue before the knockout rework? I'd just like some reasoning beyond what you provided.
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@chieften333 said:
There's a phrase that I heard recently, "chasing the dragon". Basically meaning that you're trying to attain a bigger and better high than before no matter the tolerance you've built up to the drug.
In 'Doors Unknown' the entity takes the form of a massive dragon and kills The Blight multiple times.
So basically, Blight is stuck in an infinite cycle of Blight fluid high induced by the entity. So literally, and metaphorically, Blight is stuck in the dragons grip.
Seems obvious in hindsight, but pretty good writing on the devs part.
that's actually really cool.
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@Moxie said:
The most boring Killer in my opinion. I do not care about the skewed stats that are always touted when this is brought up. Also the first Killer to introduce the mending action to their kit. Coincidence?
I don't get the whole thing with mending. Like who cares lol. It's 12 seconds. Playing against Legion is just looping an m1 killer injured and mending from time to time, which sure, I'll take a mend when I'm injured. At least he didn't down me. More time to loop.
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@lowiq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851561#Comment_1851561
It doesn't - in fact, you may only be able to pull off slugging all four players one in every 5 games. However, that doesn't change that in the right circumstances against solos, you can completely ruin the game for them.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851563#Comment_1851563
If there's anything the devs have shown us with their methodology to balance, blindly looking at the performance of a perk without looking at the use-cases is bad practice. Otherwise, OoO should not be changed because it is "underperforming". I will agree that the rework was counterproductive and didn't bring the perk more use, however I have an issue with the base perk itself.
Okay, that's a totally fair standpoint. My post is mostly about why they would make a change doing the OPPOSITE effect of what they want (and if they have half a brain and any knowledge of their game, they KNOW making it a basic attack perk would lead the perk to being less used). Now, the perk itself may be unhealthy, and I totally get that part. The buff wouldn't have had to make it MORE unhealthy, just make it a better perk that is more usable.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
First of all, I will never understand why people complain about Nerfs to a Perk which was weak to begin with. I have not seen many Knockouts at all and I cant believe that onle the few people who actually used it are complaining. So why complaining about a Perk that would not have been run anway?
Anway:
"Now, with Twins being out, this perk would be pretty gross on them, but the perk was changed around mid-2020."
That the Perk was changed mid-2020 does not matter at all. If they want to do that in regards to the Twins Release, they already knew that they were coming. BHVR plans Chapters with at least 1 year in advance, aka they know what will be cominig at the start of 2022. So when they changed Knockout, they knew that Twins would be released later during the year.
Also, it was during Leatherfaces Rework, aka it made sense to touch his Perks at this point.
When it comes to WHY it was nerfed, I would say that they thought it would be too annoying on Killers who can down people fast (like Nurse, Billy or Oni) so that it becomes harder to pick up other Survivors at this point. But IMO they should look at Infectious Fright for that, far more unhealthy.
And IMO they should change Knockout to something completely different because it is still a Perk which is strong against Solos and weak against SWF, which should not be the case.
Just wanna mention that Nurse's blink attack is a basic attack, so Knockout still applies. Can confirm as a Knockout using Nurse player.
I think it's valid to complain about a change made to an underpowered perk that was intended to address its issue being underused, and then the change they make to it is making it less usable lol. I actually did use Knockout pre-nerf, and it wasn't really good, but I liked it for slugging here and there (never played like an ass with it, just used it to pressure).
But assuming they'd know the Twins PLAYSTYLE and changing Knockout just for that isn't really realistic. Twins could've easily been the best 12-hooker in the game to their knowledge mid-design (which, might I remind you, this killer wasn't even fully designed ON RELEASE). They just happened to turn into the best slugger in the game that can snowball at any point. I highly doubt they changed Knockout in preperation for the slugging playstyle that players would figure out on release.
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@lowiq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851538#Comment_1851538
I was trying to convey that while this perk may sometimes be strategic for killers, all use cases of this perk promote a unfun playstyle for survivors and when abused a miserable experience no matter the killer.
You're definitely right though - if anything, ironically, the slug-only use-case would work on every killer except for the twins.
But was it really a problem pre-rework?
You can say that, but that was never shown to be the case. The perk was underperforming and underused, that was the problem. Not that it was overperforming. The solution to that would be, even if redesigning so it's not awful to play against, making it have more use. Post rework, which intended to give it more use, it has far less use and the added effect of slow crawl speed does practically nothing.
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@dspaceman20 said:
As a survivor main I have no idea what killers go through on a daily basis and what things are pitted against you. I want to know how the game is for you and what you would do to make the game more balanced. All I ask is that the changes be reasonable. ( I want to and I will listen)
Edit: From what has been told the problems are as followed
- Poor Map design
- Matchmaking
- Perk (for both sides)
- RNG
- Generator Speeds
- Survive with friends
- Toxicity
- Disparity between killers
Thats for now if I missed anything tell me and thank you.
Maps and early game.
From a survivor perspective as well, I think spawning on gens is just dumb, especially while the killer (Which could be Clown or Bubba or any killer with low mobility), is across the entire map. From the Killer perspective, it's like playing the game with 3-4 gens. Combine this with a map like Disturbed Ward or Mother's Dwelling, this is even more stupid (could also add in toolboxes and prove thyself).
Imo, all maps should be around the same, small size. Around Dead Dawg and Coal Tower. This already helps early game, but the early game issue still exists. Implement some type of early game startup to help killers, and that'll help so much with gens flying for no reason without you being able to do a single damn thing about it.
At that point, at the HIGHEST level, the game would still be unbalanced, but this would be a big help in general, and wouldn't be too rough for lower skill levels, which struggle and don't take advantage of the early game anyway.
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@TheBus4K said:
Yesterday I played with it with the addons "Award-winning Chilli" and "Carburettor Tuning Guide" (addons with which I have played several times and it has been great), it was at an incredibly slow speed, as if it literally had no additional speed with the chainsaw and simply run at 4.6 (115%) speed. Literally Leatherface before the rework was better xD.
I haven't tested if it happens with other addons or without them because I haven't played it again (I don't feel like losing another game). I hope it's a bug, because it's too much for a nerf.
Carburator tuning guide is bugged IIRC. Unless it's not, and you're just talking about normal speed. Which, it is slower than base chainsaw.
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Billy is not better than Blight against good players. Billy is wayyyy too loopable. Blight is not, and has better mobility and addons. Meh list, would say Nurse is absolutely over Freddy and still the top though. Definitely underrating some killers would say.
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@Almo said:
I think I should just keep this link on a hotkey.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847022#Comment_1847022
Having to waste more than 70 seconds of your objective time, in solo queue, every game, just to counter 1 out of 78 potential killer perks that may not even be in the match is awful design, period. Something should only have strength if it exists in the match. In the same way that I have no idea a survivor could have DS, I also have no idea if a killer has NOED, and counterplaying either of these perks (slugging someone or even multiple survivors because DS is going to counter your pressure, or cleansing all 5 totems, wasting a minimum of 70 seconds total just for the cleansing time, not accounting for the time wasted traveling the map and finding the totems, possibly doubling the time or more), can literally lose you the game even if those perks, which are 1 out of 78-86, literally do not exist in the match.
This is also terrible for new players and low ranks, and just solo queue in general, which is already tough. Not tough by your statistic that it's tough, but from experience as one of your players.
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@WraithBaby said:
Oh okay, I've played him on consoles and I never have any luck with him. Before when you could still rush at 1, 2, or 3 I could get downs, but now it's super difficult. Like used to you didn't have to wait for his bar to fill up to 5 before rushing again.
That was NEVER the case man. Blight ALWAYS had to rush at 5 tokens.
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@WraithBaby said:
What are your opinions on the Blight? I think he's weak now that you have to wait for your rushes to fully recharge before rushing again. I feel like he was balanced before the nerf, and now he's just super weak.
What are you talking about? You always had to wait to rush. Blight has never been nerfed. He has an insanely good base kit and even better addons. Blight, IMO, is a perfect killer.
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@Exerlin said:
Sounds fun! I would play that, but without unique balancing, it might end up being extremely frustrating for survivors.
yeah would definitely need balancing, survivors might have to have more health states and #########, but the concept sounds kinda fun. honestly, any new gamemode for dbd sounds fun.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834455#Comment_1834455
As I said, I main Oni, so I know well that doesn't exist looping on a Oni that has topknot. Not even long walls which are his biggest weakness mean anything when you have basically an instadash. Topknot also removes one of the biggest skills in playing Oni that is timing the dashes correctly.
Not looping a Blood Fury Oni, looping an early game Oni that has no power yet. Delaying his time as much as possible while sticking on gens as he tries to get his first hit is very effective. It's STILL possible to snowball because of his strength, but you give him so much less room to do so and give your team a lot more time to recover after being hit with a good Blood Fury (which you CAN still hide out if needed). This is in no way me saying Oni is a bad killer, I love playing him and I love playing against him as he's very challenging and strong, but that's why he's a well-designed, top-tier killer even with Topknot.
I mean, even in Blood Fury, it definitely has counterplay (but then it's a lot more map dependent and much tougher), but the structures that work against him become a lot more limited (as you said, long walls are much more playable for him with Topknot).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834130#Comment_1834130
As an Oni main, Scalped Topknot is totally boosted and has almost 0 counterplay. Using Topknot + Lion Fang easily lets you down an entire team in under a minute.
I mean, Oni's supposed to be kinda busted IN his power. The entire counterplay to the killer is to play well and not feed him early game so he doesn't get his power. I don't really think his actual power being really damn good is a bad thing. If your team feeds, separate and hide.
I'm saying this from a survivor's perspective btw. Any time myself or my team plays safe in the early game, wasting a lot of his time getting hits, he has so much less wiggle room to snowball. You just have to be good at looping and understand that greeding ######### and being risky can lead to your entire team being downed way too early in the game. Even if Oni has Topknot, this is what makes him fun to play against. You actually have to be good.
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no, one of the devs in charge of balance is a pig main and believes she's A tier, and she also has one of the highest kill rates on their statistics. when she's getting changes, it's just addons most likely.
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@Felnex said:
Competition is always healthy. When there is none, things get stagnant and lazy.
All I'm thinking of is Phasmophobia is way more fun than DBD. Imagine if it were made by more people instead of 1 insanely talented developer! Look at the garbage broken patches BHVR releases with 600 people, compare it to Phasmophobia's creative and unique gameplay.
They are slightly different games (DBD is people vs. people= very toxic, Phasmophobia is cooperative) but I think they're similar enough to compare. If you haven't already, check out Phasmophobia, if you like DBD at all it'll be worth checking out.
phas is literally nothing like DBD man. completely different games.
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@StibbityStabbity said:
Ethan says Legion is fine.
lalalala, lalalala, almo's worldddd!
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Blight
(Possibly Twins but we still need time)
Oni
Freddy
Top 4.6 imo.
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@tt_ivi_99 said:
Billy is still the best 1.6m/s killer in the game, yh he doesnt have insta-saw anymore but the cooldown is not that bad, and even tho the curving mechanic is kind of ######### up because of the insta-saw add-ons you can still use his power in strong loops like Jungle Gyms and Shack.
He has great mobility and an instadown, what more do you want?
A good chase power.
Billy is way too easy to loop. You'll eventually instadown me, but I'm giving enough time for my team to do 3 gens. Good mobility, but he cannot keep up in chase.
Old Instasaw had led to him being overrated. Billy is one of the easiest killers to loop. Have gone against many P3 good Billys. Doesn't matter how good they are, they're still going to take a long time to down me.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Isn't that add-on broken? The last time I tried to use it, it wasn't giving me the rush. Then again, I was playing as Blight who already has a rush. But regardless, I think if an add-on says it should do something, it should do it.
that addon on blight just gave him an extra rush. on every killer, it gave them a dash after hooking. read the descriptions mang.
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@Almo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1825006#Comment_1825006
They do not. Nurse is weak averaged across all players, even across ranks 1-4. But when considering the very best players, she's top tier. Not quite #1, but close.
Keep in mind I have access to way more information. The periodic snapshots we share are because they are interesting, not because they are the sole criteria by which we balance things.
I'd say if all your very good Nurse players actually played Nurse with her most annoying, strongest strategy (Slugging at 5 gens with Infectious, Ruin, Undying, whatever else), you'd see Nurse's top players jump over Freddy's top players easily in your statistics.
I have a suspicion most good nurse players refuse to play like this because they know they're going to win the vast majority of their games, and it's just repetitive and wayyyy too unfun for anyone to play against. She's the only killer who can reliably do this even against very good players. Freddy definitely can't do that (his early game is garbage unless you use his iri addon or teleport exploit at the start), I would just wager that most Nurse's don't because of how incredibly strong it is.
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@MrDardon said:
Sometimes it'll be like that. When I leveled Blight, till Lvl 50+ I didn't get a single Compound 33, only Iri. Blight Tag's. I opened a Discussion if it was bugged maybe. After I opened the Thread and leveling him again, I got CP 33 thrown at me like crazy.
literally just got 2 after this, lmfao. thank you.
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If you think double reload addons on Clown makes him busted, I think your understanding of the game is WAYYYY too 1v1 focused. You need to think in the grand scheme of things here.
- Clown bottles are still weak, even in the 1v1. They shut down loops, but pallets can still be pre-dropped and Clown will waste a lot of time getting hits.
- Clown still has literally no map pressure. No mobility, no secondary ability, nothing. Just slowing bottles. Whoopdedoo if he can reload them faster.
- If this was busted, Clown would not be known as the worst/one of the worst killers in the game. The issue still stands. Even with a million Clown bottles (which WOULD be very irritating) Clown is still Clown. The power is still mediocre at best.
You NEED to see this game as a 1v4, NOT a 1v1. You NEED to release that the killer is eventually going to down you, and Clown is still going to take longer than most killers to do so, giving your teammates PLENTY of time to do the generators. It's a very feel-good combo, but extremely busted? Best combo? Noooooo way, man.
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@Felnex said:
Yeah, Legion was horribly designed. They're not a legion, they're solo killers. LOL what was the point? When their power is just generic "Run fast, stabby stabby" it was a huge let down. I'm not saying their power isn't fun, I'm saying it does not suit them at all.
LEGION should operate more like the twins, but without switching control. You choose which Legion member you want to play as pre-game with customization. This is the "Leader", and they can call on their friends to assist them.
Feral Frenzy remains the same, but Legion's movement speed is reduced to 110% again. Alternatively, remove Feral Frenzy entirely but Keep Legion's speed at 115%. You have a second ability with a long cooldown that calls on Members of the Legion to assist you:
* While targeting a Survivor with Deep Wounds, can call on a random member of the Legion to harass deeply wounded Survivors. They'll spawn at an random interval between 1-10 seconds after the Survivor begins to Mend/Repair/Heal/Cleanse/Search. This Legion member moves at 105% speed towards their target (They'd have to program some AI) and lasts for a short duration before disappearing, and does not have a Terror Radius.
* While targeting a Survivor in the Dying State, you call on a random member of the Legion to pick them up and transport them to the nearest hook. This Legion member can be blinded easily, as they do not look away. They will swing at any Survivor in their direct path, but will not chase outside of the most direct path to their intended hook. If they drop the Survivor for any reason, they despawn.
* While targeting nothing, call on a random member of the Legion to stand guard there. They will spawn after a visible short delay, and stand in place for a short duration. Any Survivor that comes near will be marked by Killer's Instinct for a short duration, after which the Legion member will despawn. This Legion member will attack any Survivor that comes nearby, but they will not move from their set location. Stunning, blinding, or being hit by this Legion will cause it to despawn.
I like your approach. Definitely some changes and additions I'd like made to it, but great template in my opinion. You would have to figure out how to get it to work with all the different inputs needed. Being able to activate Frenzy, using specific Legion members, and telling them all what to do.
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https://www.twitch.tv/almo2001/clip/ObservantPlainCockroachSpicyBoy?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
Here you go. This may be why it's lower on the priority list.
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@noctis129 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822184#Comment_1822184
That's why they should stop nerfing killer perks. Thanataphobia was great on the wraith.
But when tru3 consistently 4k w the wraith w thanataphobia, the devs decided to nerf it.
....what are you talking about? tru3 playing wraith was more than/around a year ago son.
their intention with thana was to BUFF it anyway. they should've done better, but they're intention was not "Hey guys, Tru3 played Wraith pretty well more than a year ago, so we're gonna nerf this perk that he used in one of his builds!"
you're totally one of those people who thinks the devs are out to get tru3. they dont care about his performance with a killer man lol. literally BUFFING wraith btw.
thana isnt even in wraith's best build anyway. many holes in what you say.
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@Almo said:
This requirement will stay. There are things we don't want, like someone going into dying state due to a Bear Trap with Honing Stone triggering stuff like Surge. The alternative to the basic attack requirement is making exceptions. For example we could say Surge works for Demo Shred, but not Trapper BT/HS. Now every time we add a new Killer, we potentially have to through and update every perk with these exceptions. It's just not a maintainable design with the vast amount of perk/addon/power combinations available.
Since every Killer can basic attack, we can create the perk, and know exactly how it works with every Killer without having to check a ton of different interactions. If this means some perks don't work well given some Killers' powers, then that's just the way of it. Not every perk is exactly as useful on one Killer as it is on the others. Learning to choose your perks well to synergize with your chosen Killer is one of the important skills in DbD.
I have heard it said that this answer means we're "lazy"... that we're not willing to "do things that take work". Whole programming languages and paradigms have been based around preventing the same thing in code as we're trying to prevent in design with this strategy. You don't want a ball of yarn of a design where tugging on any little thing pulls a whole ton of others.
In a game as complex as DbD, there will necessarily be some of that. But minimizing it through smart design is still a worthwhile endeavor.
So what would be the problem with Honing Stone triggering Surge? Would this be OP and make Trapper too strong and oppressive?
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you are playing an asym game my friend. 4vs1.
while playing on the team of 4, your success is dependent on the effort of 4. your mistakes can be nullified by your team playing well (carrying you). you account for 25% of the team.
while playing on the team of 1, you account for 100% of the team. your mistakes are your mistakes, and nobody can make up for them or avoid them except you. EXPECT that to be the more stressful and frustrating role. that is the nature of an asym. you should not be playing an asym and complain about the role of which YOU are the only player on the team, against 4 other people who are on the same team, being stressful. no duh, man. if you want a less stressful role, play another game where you are not the sole player on the team.
plus, solo queue is not really relaxing man lol. in fact, the dependency on teammates can make the game MORE stressful. majority of teammates are as useful as my grandmother playing on a joystick.
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@Mandy said:
I don't think it's something that's going to be changed. Otherwise all other perks would have to be adjusted to maintain consistency - and things like NOED on a pigs dash, Huntress hatchet etc is going to be way too strong imo.
Not the same thing. You're talking about exposed, which is a basic attack status effect. I believe the OP is talking about specific perks requiring basic attacks to trigger - such as Surge and Blood Favor. They specifically state that basic attacks are required, not that they apply a basic attack status effect.
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@MikeyBoi said:
Dead hard is still quite easily countered. Just wait that extra couple of seconds when you catch up to the survivor after the first initial m1 and bait it out.
That's not where Dead Hard is strong, nor how you can counter it. You cannot counter Dead Hard for distance to a pallet or window (or even out an exit gate). You simply can't. It's not possible. You either continue a chase, which can last very long, or you give up. The exception would be playing Phead and shockwaving an animation lock, or a Huntress hatchet.
Yeah, you can wait out someone being dodging a hit when you're on their ass, but that's just using the perk to waste 2 seconds of the killer's time.
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@TheButcher said:
I get they want data, but the game is already stressful enough to play. Then to disable Bloodlust on top of that, when it's needed in maps like Autohaven, Haddonfield, and the Elementary School just to catch survivors around the long and ridiculously close loops. There is no point putting yourself through that additional stress.
I'm sure I'm not the only one making this decision. Most probably won't say anything, especially since when anyone voices anything killer related they just get dismissed.
Anywho. This kind of 'test' should of been done on the PTB, not the main game. The main game should be used for the best experience, not making harder on the most stressful role just for data.
It's a video game, dude. If they wanna test how something works in their video game, something that's not real, then they can put that on their live servers. Oh no, 3 days that you won't enjoy your video game as much as you would without 5% extra speed during chase. What will you ever do?
Plus, putting this on a PTB would be awful. People stop playing PTB after a day, and are usually more focused on the other content to not care about some bloodlust change. Even if they just opened a ptb with bloodlust removal and nothing else, nobody would download and play that.
What they did is fine. Stop acting like a little test over the weekend is gonna ruin your life. It's a *video game.* If you're that stressed over a casual asymmetrical game, I'd reconsider playing the game AT ALL.
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@Ace_Ventura said:
Surge already got a buff recently. It now works with ruin, and I believe Pop. Cause surge can proc on already regressing gens. It's actually pretty sick. I've actually been running surge and overcharge because 90% of survivors miss the overcharge skill check, so you get 15% regression with overcharge alone (the initial kick is 5%, the missed skill check is an additional 10%), coupled with the 8% surge gives. It's quite nice. Also fun with Dragons Grip.
It can't work with Pop when surge starts regressing a gen.
Also, the initial kick being 5%? You sure about that?
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@thisisntmax said:
I totally agree! Looping is an outdated mindset for those, both killer and survivor, who refuse to adapt. Extraordinarily designed killers such as Rin, Caleb, and even our lovely Lisa can counteract that, but more needs to be done. There needs to be a shift to a more stealthy way of playing DBD; the way the devs originally intended. We need more survivors urbaning, lightweighting, quick and quieting and iron willing!
that sounds very, very, very, very boring.
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Yeah, he's completely outdated.
I know a lot of people go "Oh, he just needs some number changes to Tier (x)! He just needs some different addons!"
I just can't get behind that. This killer is wayyyyy too outdated to just need a handful of number changes. Oni is literally a FAR better Myers. Ghostface is a better instadown stalk killer with stealth on top of it. Plague is a better snowball killer. Plague and Legion are both good alternatives as instadown killers (keeping people injured) with slowdown on top of it. Bubba is a better aggressive instadown killer.
I'm totally down to keep stalking and the tiers, because it would be very very unfair to take that from Myers players (like how they made Freddy a lame Clown with a teleport and got rid of his Dream Demon theme), but what his power actually does needs a complete rework.
I would love to see the theme of "Tier 1 = stealth, tier 3 = aggressive, tier 2 = inbetween" be fully embraced with a new unique ability that morphs itself throughout the tiers. You can even keep the instadown, but he just needs something special on top of that.
I want this killer to be modernized, but I don't want his identity taken from him. The concept of stalking and tiering up is great. The execution could just be so much better now that the devs have more resources.
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You can juke a nurse. You can juke and mindgame even the best nurses. It's very difficult, you'll get them less than an average Nurse, but Nurse absolutely has counterplay.
Personally, I find playing against Nurse to be super fun, but that's because I understand how to after struggling to play against her for years.
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Take off Speed Limiter bud. Read what addons do lmfao.
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I honestly wouldn't create any new status effect. The core idea of Legion was insanely flawed, and now he's just in a weird bandaid state where he lacks half of a power now. Legion needs far more than a new status effect to make him a solid, well-designed killer.
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@NomiNomad said:
So, these are two of my favorite killers. Myers is my favorite slasher, and Oni (in my opinion) is by far the coolest looking killer in this game, and they're similar in some aspects. They're both 'power up' killers, with having pretty bad early games since they don't really have access to their power. I'm curious to see who people think is better. Again, in my opinion, Oni is probably better. His early game is way better because he isn't reduced to 105%. It may take him longer to get his power, in some instances, but I feel when it is activated he has such a higher amount of presence. Blood Fury feels like a better version of Tier 3. Instadown, plus insane map pressure to rival even pre-rework Billy. Sure, his power can run out extremely fast compared to Michael, but once you get people injured and get blood on the map it becomes so much easier to get his power.
Then again, in an actual chase, I feel like Myers is better (unless Oni has Top Knot). His lunge is easier to control, his footsteps are much quieter (as far as I know), he vaults windows faster. And if we're talking add-ons, Myers is far better. If Oni had an infinite Blood Fury ultra rare, I feel like he might be complained about a lot more, and Jumpscare Myers is probably one of my favorite builds in the game. Honestly, I wish they'd touch Myers and give him some buffs.
I hope this didn't come across as biased, even though I know it probably did. I know there are a lot of Michael mains on this forum, so I hope I didn't ruffle anybody's feathers too bad. Hell, I used to be a Myers main. How would you change Michael in specific, add-on wise or power wise to be better? I feel like aside from a few Add-Ons, Oni is one of the most balanced killers in the game.
Undoubtedly Oni.
Oni has to M1 to get his power, and Myers doesn't, but what you have to think about is that Myers, in order to get a down at all, has to M1 lol. With Oni having a Dash, massive lunge, and unlimited instances of his power, the debate is just about settled there.
Myers is just a poor little M1 killer. Oni's 200% movement speed dash is far more powerful in a chase than holding W with 115% speed and a slightly increased lunge. Yeah Myer's duration is longer, but Oni gets FAR more use out of his power in 45 seconds than Myers can in 60 or 90.
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@GoshJosh said:
Most of us miss old Freddy, for balance and fun and unique gameplay purposes. Name any other killer with anywhere near this number of powers in one kit/add-ons:
- Teleporting to any incomplete gen, being able to fake the power for only a small cost of it
- Traps that cannot be avoided by crouching over them, disarming, etc., and immediately trigger if standing upon them while falling asleep; as well as no casting penalty/cooldown
- A power that passively works against survivors, along with actively applying it with a successful attack
- Constant oblivious status affect on survivors, except for the few minutes they're able to be awake during the match (negating the ability to safe hook rescue with Borrowed Time)
- Fake pallets that penalize the survivor for removing them, except for the common variant (aura revealed; any other killer with add-ons that reveal auras are rare or higher quality as well, whereas Freddy has an uncommon variant)
- Permanent slowdown add-ons of relatively low rarity (compare to Hillbilly's old slowdown add-ons/Huntress's Begrimed Head)
Here are some proposed fixes for each point:
- Force Freddy to commit to teleporting to gens, not attach it to a very rare add-on
- Allow survivors to avoid puddles by crouch walking over them, and not trigger by simply falling asleep passively; and, slow Freddy down while casting puddles
- Remove the passive falling asleep, and allow survivors to go to more than one alarm clock on the map to wake up
- Remove Oblivious from Freddy's basekit, or fix Borrowed Time to trigger based on a killer's proximity to the hook
- Don't let fake pallet tokens regenerate if the fake pallet is dropped by a survivor, or remove the aura reading affect from the add-ons
- Increase the rarity of the slowdown add-ons
Yeah, let's just neuter Freddy when he's a good killer.
Like, he's not even OP man lol. He's just a solid killer. Not too strong, but not weak. Decent chase, good map pressure, nice passives. Nothing AT ALL about that is too strong.
Killer having strengths should NOT mean the killer should be nerfed. I also like how you list off the pallets as if they're even strong against anyone who can pay attention.
His addons are baaaaaad too. Status effect, skill checks, bad dream pallets, and stacked 12% slowdown which are his best. You have to show some understanding of the 1v4 game before calling something too strong. Judging by your comments, you don't have much, and I suggest you learn more AND play both sides against good killers and survivors.
Now, do I dearly miss old Freddy? Absolutely. They went the ez route with completely removing him instead of making his slowdown gameplay on the other side more dynamic and interesting (slowdown in the form of going to another dimension or something of the sort), and buffing and fleshing out the mindgamey hit-and-run playstyle he was good at. I'd rather learn knitting than play new Freddy. I will agree with bringing that back, but new Freddy being too oppressive? No. Not at all.
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Just use BBQ.
The other 3 perks help you reach the bloodpoint CAP faster. They only give you more bloodpoints in the game, whereas BBQ takes the bloodpoints you earned during the game, and multiplies them by 25-100% after the game. The other 3 do not do this.
BBQ + BP offering is the way to go. You're better off using perks to help you win, which'll give you more bloodpoints lol.
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I'm a Demo main. You'll see me around. I don't know if I have any Demo friends though :( I might be the only one out there.
DemoPls
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@MeltingPenguins said:
First up, I know how bait-y this will sound, but I'm genuinely curious:
The main argument against him I keep seeing is how 'he's boring too face' usually with the explanation that you can not have 'interactive chases' against him.
So, I do wonder:
Facing a killer that requires you to shake up your gameplay is 'boring' while the same routine (chasing, juking, looping, etc) for every killer on every map isn't?
I really don't get the logic here.
Again, I see people argue that 'the chases are the most fun part' as if that is a universal truth, and as if everyone who plays sneakily, gets their objectives done etc is a bad player and not welcome in the community.
That's the impression I am getting each time people call for a massive nerf for Caleb, if not his full removal from the game.
Deathslinger is not OP, nor does he need nerfs.
However, to say he shakes up chase gameplay is wrong, you and I both know it. A killer that shakes up chase gameplay is Nurse, who you mindgame more than you loop, like every other killer.
Your chance in a chase against Slinger is based on his skill. If he's good, you're going down. There is no dodging, there is no amazing mindgame you can do. He will shoot you, and if not, he will zone you.
The game is not a 1v1, and so I don't think this is OP like everybody else, but it's also not that interactive on the survivor side. You can't say that it is. Play against or watch a good Slinger play, and you'll see.
I also think he's fun as hell to play so lol
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@BitingSea said:
My Idea:
Duration: 15 seconds
Recharge: 15 seconds
Add Ons: Change killer instinct range add ons for Frenzy Movement Speed add ons, buffed Filthy and Dirty blades, Frank's mixtape increases how long killer instinct range and duration, Stab wounds study buff, Pins durations increased from 60 to 90 seconds.
Let me know your ideas! I'd like to see some other variations for a FF buff
No matter how much you buff Frenzy, without it being as broken as it was on release (which it should NEVER return to), I don't see Legion being an effective killer without a rework or SOMETHING to help him down survivors.
I've mained Legion for a while, and as much as I love his bloodpoint generation, there is no number change to Legion that would satisfy me at all. You could give me infinite Frenzy and I still wouldn't care much.
Every killer in this game has to have a power to help them down survivors for them to be even somewhat effective against decent players that know how to loop a killer. That can come with stealth, mobility, a special attack, etc. Legion has nothing but a knife. He's not the only killer in the game that has this issue, but he's probably got the worst case of it right now. All he's got going for him is slowdown and instadowns. It's decent pressure until you're against a good player who knows how to run you.
Like I said, I still love Legion, but he needs a lot more than number changes for good buff that's fair.
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I just want to put it out there - By no means am I saying old Freddy was anywhere near perfect, nor was he amazing. He clearly had plenty of issues, which is why he got a rework. My personal opinion is that I feel his power could've gotten a light rework, given another ability, and overall his power could've been smoothed out, making him viable and more fun to play and play against.
Now, in our imperfect world and especially in our DBD world, nothing is rainbows and sunshine and so there'd be problems either way, but I feel his gameplay could've been far more unique and strategic rather than what it is now.
As some of you have said, the way people played Freddy was quite annoying, but like I said, I think old Freddy needed some significant changes, and making his playstyle a little less irritating would be part of that, among lots of other things.
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@Massquwatt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1629698#Comment_1629698
Well I mean this game is all about horror and the best horror games always make the player have this constant feeling of being "unsafe". In my personal experience survivor is most fun when you're feeling "unsafe" anyway. The constant pressure of having to complete generators, healing and helping teammates, rescuing them all the while you got this monstrous of a killer that's seemingly everywhere and anywhere at once. It's why I don't find Demogorgon particularly fun to go against. You can hear him across the map when he breaks pallets, you can hear him across the map when he misses an attack, you can hear him across the map when he teleports. You can hear him when he comes out of the teleport, you can hear his footsteps from 16 meters. I know where demogorgon is what he's doing at all times and because of that, I feel safe. That's not fun. That's boring. My own two cents but there's nothing fun about survivor if I'm looping the killer for 3 gens, gives up and does something else. I wanna feel the pressure, I wanna feel like I'm surviving, I wanna feel like that every single snap decision I make gives me precious seconds against this monstrous killer, I want that feeling of desperation as a survivor would in that scenario. Running around in circles occassionally dropping a pallet at a leisurely pace just doesn't feel like fun to me at all.
This game is not that...you're looking for a completely different game. Singleplayers are designed to give you that experience, not multiplayer games with horror themes that provide an addictive game loop, repeated over and over and over with 10-15 minute matches on average. I recommend other games if you expect to feel constantly scared and in fear of the killer. This game was made to be a player versus player multiplayer game.
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@xerav said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1629531#Comment_1629531
This is the part i dont understand.... Deathslingers biggest downside is the reeling mechanic cuz it eats so much time unless its point blank. Good Survivor can waste more time by clinching into Terrain (Swf can run between to break the chain or just take the hit and deny a down).
So if at all its unfun for the Deathslinger to land a shoot and in worst case get nothing from it.
It seems a Killer is only fun when you can run circles with him and he cant do anything about it...
What?? The biggest downside is NOT the reeling. That takes a maximum of 5 seconds. Wow, 5 second reeling for a chase to be cut down extremely short. Huge downside.
No, the real downside is that he's slow. His gun is VERY good. Cannot be dodged, survivors cannot struggle on the chain if you walk backward...it's a completely free hit that you get very easily if you're GOOD at him. Again, his downside is being 4.4 m/s.
Why people think his gun has downsides is beyond me.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1629185#Comment_1629185
1) It’s not instant.
2) It would kill him at loops.
3) Huntress has a completely different power. Hers is fully ranged and she can freely aim. PH has limited range and limited turning. Comparing them is pointless, it would be like me saying “Huntress can quickly combo an M2 into an M1, why can’t Pyramid?” Different powers.
4) Pig again different power. Hers takes away her terror radius. Thats how stealth killers were back then, they got to sneak up on survivors but had a pause so survivors had a chance to react. Then they made Ghostface....
5) Demogorgan is trash so that kind of proves the point.
It is instant. There's about a .5 second period between your cancel to an M1. It is literally instant.
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what are you talking about? was doctor, freddy, bubba, and soon clown being buffed/reworked all in my dreams? were map sizes and gen speeds being decreased just a rumor? toolbox nerfs and soon to be key nerfs? plague buff? the introduction of the last few high tier killers? small trapper, legion, and clown buffs and QOL updates until the eventual buffs for all of them? killer perk buffs?
you're listing off TECHNICAL PROBLEMS. yeah, this game has a ######### ton, no surprise. the foundation for this game is a rickety mess. but why sit around and complain like the devs constantly cater to survivors when they literally help killers every patch and mid chapter. get real. am killer main btw.
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@Grimmy_Bluues said:
Here is my suggestion:
As long as the hex is active, hitting a survivor with a basic attack will cause all pallets in a 18m radius of the survivor to be held in place by the Entity for 15 seconds, 5 seconds after they have been hit.
Basically, you hit them, they use the boost to get away, after the boost ends pallets are blocked. I still think it should be a hex as many would complain about how strong a pallet blocking perk is, but a cooldown is not needed.
Interesting idea...