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HP150
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I have not seen a single Ghostface legitimately activate the exposed status on a survivor who wasn't meme'ing around.
I'm sure the devs will be able to collect data on this sort of thing, but with the release planned for the 18th, I'm not sure how much they'll be able to fix before then...
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with tunneling in any circumstance whatsoever.
Do Survivors say to themselves "Oh man, we're pumping out these gens too fast. Better slow down to make it more fun for the Killer"? No? Then why should you slow down on your one objective, killing?
And honestly, I'm glad when both parties try to complete their objectives as fast and efficiently as possible with all tools and tactics available to them. People in this game are getting too soft, too worried about hurting the opponent's feelings because you decided to play the game.
Play to win, all of you. Killer and Survivor.
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"We haven't had decent perks since the shattered bloodlines chapter"
Infectious Fright is the best perk for Nurse since BBQ & Chili and it's pretty good on Hillbilly as well. Corrupt Intervention is decent on Hag and Trapper, as it gives them time to establish their area of control at the start of the match, when they are most weak. Both are perks from the latest chapter, one for the 2 top-tier killers, the other for 2 mid-tier killers.
The new perk "Thrilling Tremors" seems tailor-made for the Freddy rework and will almost certainly become his staple perk, especially if he gets add-ons to decrease his teleport time. Should also be fine on Mint Rag Hag as well.
Just because a perk is only good on few killers doesn't make the perk itself bad.
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Eh. I was out of the loop, didn't even know there was a surprise til about an hour ago.
So for what it's worth, those cosmetics look pretty rad.
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3 minutes is fine.
The intention probably isn't for the Entity to outright kill survivors, but to present a sense of urgency and prevent some hostage holding scenarios. Direct death by Collapse will probably be very rare, as it should be.
It will, however, prevent the current hatch standoffs which is where it matters. 3 minutes feels like just the right amount of time for a lone survivor to make a play for one of two doors being patrolled by a killer.
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The gates are powered once the hatch is closed. 0:29-0:32 of the video. You're welcome.
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Defeats the purpose.
All feedback, positive or negative, real or perceived, should in theory be important. If it's valid negative feedback then it should result in changes. If it's feedback based on perception then the team needs to get hands-on and do a better job of communicating why the perception is wrong. That's just general marketing and community management.
Besides, who exactly is this "trusted audience" you're speaking of? The streamers who won't be able to stream the PTB, make money, or grow their channel and are unable to even discuss the changes because of the NDA? Or just the exact same random Joe Schmoes who happen upon the "application" for the PTB? In which case it's the exact same result as the current PTB but with extra annoying steps.
The PTB is already dead 2-4 days after it's released. How bearable do you think the queue times are going to be once you start cherry picking testers? Who exactly do you expect to sign up for this and test it extensively? The larger the sample size the better.
Remember, their customers aren't only people who are willing to sign an application and an arbitrary NDA (which would most certainly be broken anyways). Feedback is feedback, even if it's based on theorycrafting.
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At the very least, give him some QOL changes. Give him a visual and audio cue whenever his chainsaw is fully-charged. Give him a white flash on the edge of the screen like with what the Nurse has and make him let out a grunt.
I can't count the number of times I've prematurely dropped a chainsaw charge because I was half a pixel off from the bar being full. And quite frankly I shouldn't have to be focused on a tiny bar at the bottom of the screen while trying to focus on tracking a survivor in a chase through corn/pallet loops.
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You're way under-selling DS. DS rewards survivors for playing poorly and essentially gives the survivor another health state+head start in a prolonged chase. Head-on requires some sort of forward thinking and planning.
Look, I think most of the imbalance in this game comes from the survivor side. With that said, it looks like a cool perk. Might even become meta (probably not). But survivors are allowed to have fun things, no? All I ask is they make more perks that survivors don't get for free just by equipping it (killers have to WORK for most of their good perks, protecting totems, breaking pallets to get spirit fury, hooking survivors to proc BBQ, etc).
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@Patricia said:
To achieve Deranged Pursuit you need to
*Choose The Legion
*Activate Frenzy
*While in Frenzy Hit a Survivor to activate Killer Instinct.
*Hit a Survivor already in Bleed Out and down him before the Killer Instinct ends.
(Survivor reaching Bleeding Out ends, while in Killer Instinct, does not count toward the progression)Let me know if this make more sense and if you are able to unlock the trophy!
Thank you !It doesn't make sense because the conditions are completely asinine.
But besides that, the wording for the achievement description is terrible and explains none of this at all. -
The solution was very simple: Make it so that hitting a deep wounded survivor doesn't end Frenzy; make it so hitting the same target twice during the same Frenzy ends it instead, thus requiring 2 total activations of Frenzy (4 hits) to down a survivor.
But I guess the devs still want to pretend that Feral Frenzy is on the same level of strength as Hatchets, Teleportation traps, invisibility+teleportation, and blinks, thus the 110 move speed.
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Frenzy shouldn't end after you hit a Survivor with Deep Wound. Frenzy should end when you hit the same survivor twice during the same Frenzy.
What this means is that, yes you'll get the same double-stun on the first Frenzy as it is now, but the second time you activate Frenzy on them you'll be able to hit them twice and down them via the depletion of the bleed out timer.
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Iron Maiden for Doctor and Huntress, that's it.
There are far better tracking perks than Discordance and Mad Grit is entirely too situational to assume you'll even average one use of it per match. -
@thesuicidefox said:
@Orion said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@G0odNess said:
OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the [BAD WORD] are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???I putting this in big text for everyone to read...
THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND
They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.
It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.
Or they can keep looping, because the timer will not go down during a chase.
Dude just break the chase LOL.
Yeah man, because "chasing" a survivor while walking backwards the entire time is a super fun and intuitive mechanic, not cheesy at all.
Or do you mean trying to stay close behind while relying on this game's super fickle trigger of what it considers a "chase" and "not a chase" while depending on the survivor being completely oblivious to your location? Because we totally didn't go through this with The Pig's release when everyone was trying every way to get the Reverse Bear Traps actually be the Pig's main form of killing, like in the entire series of the Saw movies?
Oh, and since you're in the "dude just break the chase LOL" crowd you must also be in
the "dude just break the totem" crowd when it comes to NOED
the "dude just hide behind a generator" crowd for BBQ&Chili (guess they can cancel the locker aura hiding now)
the "dude just slug the survivors" crowd to stop hatch standoffs
the "dude just don't get caught" crowd for tunneling complaints
the "dude just do the generators" crowd for camping complaints
yeah? -
@Arsoul said:
The sheer amount of complaining about Legion is the forums is a completely different thing to providing feedback. Admittedly, the original post for this thread wasnt bad.
feed·back
/ˈfēdˌbak/Submit
noun
1.
information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
synonyms: response, reaction, comments, criticism -
@Arsoul said:
24 hours and people are already b!tching.
The concept of a TEST build is quite elusive.Yeah man, it's almost like people are giving feedback! What scumbags! /s
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@Juya said:
OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
Have you actually played as Legion against good survivors? By the time you've tagged everyone with your power and start committing to a chase as a 110% move speed killer (with no hatchets or teleports) then 3/4th of the survivors have already mended their way out of Deep Wound or are damn close. You've wasted just as much of your time as you have theirs.
The legion is just like the pig as in, it is at your disadvantage to tunnel a single survivor the whole game.
No, Legion is more like a Class Photo Freddy. You can tag everyone. Great. You're still loopable Freddy. Except it's even EASIER to snap out of Deep Wound than Dream World (you don't need a generator, ally, or self-care), you move at 110 movement speed, and you get a one time location ping as opposed to seeing the auras of tagged survivors. Unthreatening like Freddy, but to the point where the optimal strategy is to not even heal to full state and to simply gen rush after mending.
Even if I get absolutely RNG screwed as The Pig and the survivors get their RBT off on their first Jigsaw box, I've still stalled the game more than anything Freddy or Legion can do given how you actually have to go out of your way and position yourself next to a non-objective to remove the RBT, assuming I wasn't an idiot and hooked the survivor directly next to a Jigsaw box.
And atleast with the Pig when I chase someone with my 115 movespeed and my ambush dash mindgames that can actually down, the survivors know I mean business. I'm not going to just tickle them and run away. That alone is more pressure than what the Legion can apply.
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Let me just activate my power, move faster towards the survivor, m1, and then chase for 20 seconds waiting for the survivor to drop. No need to hit twice just stay in chase...
Maybe you should have read the patch notes? The bleedout timer is not active while in chase.
Oh and while we created this new killer we also nerf BT to match the new killer's power instead of the other way around.
???
What nerf? Borrowed Time's bleedout timer no longer winds down in a chase, you do not need a medkit/selfcare/a second survivor to get rid of the bleedout timer, and it is not affected by Mangled status (Sloppy Butcher). You lost 5 seconds on what is now quite effectively a second health-state. Cry me a river.I'm not even going to go over your perk rant, it's pretty widely agreed from both side's early impressions that the Survivor perks are much more practical than the Killer's perks, to say the least.
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Completely disagree.
Most companies that sell DLC actually ADVERTISE and release DETAILS of their DLC before it's released. Before, we'd MAYBE know a couple of the perks we were getting with the release and see parts of the map but we wouldn't actually know what killer we were getting. Allowing consumers to make informed decisions instead of trying to sell DLC based on hype alone is a more honest business practice in my opinion.And this is especially important in a competitive online multiplayer game as bugs, exploits, and balance issues are a much bigger issue than in a single player DLC, thus the PTB.
After they released the Hag who self-stunned herself after every teleport, had pitiful TP range, and self-defeating add-ons followed by the Doctor who they promised was going to break the game in an OP fashion but ended up needing half of his addons to become part of his base kit in addition to the shock stun and the removal of the self-slow down every time he switched stances, it became much more hard to get hyped up for those "SURPRISE! Give me $6 to find out what we're giving you!" DLCs.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I actually like the OP's suggestion. No scratch marks for a couple seconds after an unhook is a pretty small and reasonable bonus....There is nothing "small" or "reasonable" about that. Let's think about this for a second. There is another perk that temporarily removes scratch marks; Dance With Me, and that is literally it's only function and it is highly situational because chances are you are procing it while already in a chase. Removing scratch marks is most useful when not in a chase because that is when the killer most likely does not have visual on the survivor and thus depends on the scratch marks. The latter is what you're asking for, every time you are unhooked. That would simply result in more camping (justifiably so).
Furthermore, a survivor team has a total of 16 perk slots compared to the killer's 4. That is why BBQ & Chili is allowed to have a secondary affect. No killer in his right mind would remove 1/4th of his perks and take BBQ & Chili in a "try hard" match if it only provided extra BP whereas survivors, who already have a strong enough base kit to not be perk dependent, still take WGLF and don't see much of a drawback considering there are potentially 15 other perk slots on their team.
I will concede though, that making the tokens easier to obtain is reasonable. WGLF depends on your team playing bad / the killer playing good whereas BBQ & Chili is only dependent on the killer playing good. Gen repair should contribute to obtaining a token in some form.
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@SwampGas13 said:
As a rank one killer Main every month, just hit them and let them Escape. Quit being a baby about somebody getting out of your grasp.As a rank one killer Main every month, the developers should be able to fix hatch standoffs. Quit trying to defend a ######### mechanic that the developers themselves have admitted was terrible, one that has been in the game since the times of 20 sec cooldown Sprint Burst with no exhaustion and infinites with no window blockers, no bloodlust, and twice as slow vault speed for killers. One of the very few mechanics that have not had a single balance adjustment since the time of the game's release, over 2 years ago.
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@Rebel_Raven said:
You're not entitled to the 4th kill.Survivors also shouldn't be entitled to free escapes due to ######### game mechanics.
There's ways to stop hatch plays cold, like slugging the last 2, knowing where the hatch is and intercepting, and such.
And if the slugged survivor DCs to give the hatch? Or if the last survivor knows where the hatch is also and you are playing a killer that isn't blessed with an insta-down? Because on most maps against most killers a survivor can be hit once then run in a straight line from nearly one end of the map to the other before a survivor can be hit twice.
But because both the survivor and killer know where the hatch is, the killer should insta-lose? Because Survivors are supposed to be more powerful than killers in 1v1s, right? Nevermind that the killer just found, hit twice, and hooked all 3 of your teammates multiple times until they were all dead; you happened to wonder across the hatch right before you hopped into a locker, clearly you deserve this win.
And then you run into the crux of the problem; The hatch standoff is admittedly (by the devs themselves) a terrible mechanic that has been in the game for over 2 years, since the game's release, and has not been touched once. It was in the game when Sprint Burst was on a 20 second cooldown with no exhaustion and could thus be used multiple times in a chase, in a time when there were legitimate infinites with no window blockers, no bloodlust, and Killers vaulted twice as slow as they do now while every single vault a survivor took was a fast vault. A time when BNP = instantly completed generator by pressing the space bar.
And the hatch mechanics have not been touched once. That should say enough about the situation. It simply does not stand the test of time when everything else in the game has had some sort of attempt at a balance adjustment.
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Do people actually believe that all of the survivor mains switched over to killer? Despite the queue times? And we're supposed to believe that there is a lack of survivors, all of the while the average population of the game being about the same as ever?
Quick, name one survivor main streamer that has switched over and become a killer main since 2.3.0. Because I can name a number of killer mains that have switched over since the lobbies have become BUGGED.
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I just want them to make it more clear.
If the icon next to the players name goes from hooked to injured then he should not have invulnerability, period. -
I don't see this as a problem.
If they come out to stop the regression then they're exposing themselves, that's your chance. Kick a generator, walk away, then come back a few seconds later.If they do it mid chase then they are slowing themselves down (regardless of how small of a slowdown this can mean). You should be focusing on downing them, going back to kick the generator, then picking up the survivor.
Killers have a lot of issues that still need to be fixed but I don't see this as one of them. This just seems nitpicky, scraping the bottom of the barrel for lack of better words.
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They said they were looking into doing this ages ago (on the dev stream) actually. They haven't brought it up in at least over a year ago, though.
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Or like when a Survivor gets their trap off in the first box they search?
I will say this, getting RNG screwed as The Pig feels a whole lot worse then being RNG screwed as the survivor with a RBT on their head. If I've searched 3 out of the 4 jigsaw boxes with my RBT timer still winding down, that's more thrilling than anything, but never scary because you will always have enough time to search every single box regardless unless you're just sorta being an idiot and sitting on a generator with an active RBT on your head.
If you get RNG screwed as the Pig and the survivor gets it off on the first try then it feels like you just wasted your time and effort AND finite supply of RBTs (and let's be clear here, it takes a whole lot more effort to find and hit a survivor twice as opposed to holding down mouse 1 on a box that is highlighted for you from anywhere on the map. It even conveniently de-highlights the boxes you've already searched so you don't have to use your brain to remember which ones you haven't).
In fact, I'm almost certain that The Pig was designed with the survivor's enjoyment in mind as opposed to making her a fun killer to play as.
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Oh no. They made it so that Tier 1 and Tier 2 NOED are ACTUAL perks instead of not being used at all and only being grabbed from the bloodwebs in hopes that you'll eventually get Tier 3. You know, kinda like how you get the selling point of every other perk at Tier 1 and it gets progressively better as you go up in tiers as opposed to having a completely different affect at Tier 3?
Better call the whambulance though, the Rank 20 players don't want to git gud and are coming in at full force!
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To add to the topic, a few buffs I think the RBTs could use without a rework (to be clear, RBTs do deserve a complete rework):
-Every time a generator is completed the timer on all active RBTs are accelerated by 15-20 seconds. This is in keeping up with the theme of the movies (Being selfish and rushing gens to try to save myself vs wait for my buddy to get his RBT off to pop the gen, making the game more painful for everyone but possibly saving everyone)
-Make Rule Set No.2 part of the base, default kit.
-Add an Ultra Rare Add-On that injures survivors every time that they search a Jigsaw Box, like the Bloody Coil for the Trapper (this is very in-line with the movie series; the traps are PAINFUL to take off. You hear the survivors making grunts of pain in this game when searching the Jigsaw Box but it currently does not translate into gameplay). -
I agree.
The Pig is even less faithful to her character than Freddy is in this game (and atleast Freddy has a promised complete rework to look forward to).The Reverse-Bear Traps should be her primary way of killing, instead they're just some RNG based delayal gimmick. She never even once used the retractable blades in the movies, her crouch-lunge is more something I'd expect from Ghostface (Scream). Her primary method of killing people in this game is to run at them, like she's out of a generic slasher film, which she's not.
They definitely should have taken their time to think out how her RBTs would work but they seem to have taken the laziest route with them, thus the need to give her a completely different second power that doesn't suit her at all. They had the opportunity to make her a truly unique killer that plays differently from everyone else but gave her a crouch-lunge that really could have gone on anyone else.
Besides, a HUGE plot point of the Saw series is that Amanda is not strong enough to lift an adult on her own. How the hell is she doing this on one shoulder, while swinging at survivors with the other arm, and throwing them on a hook that's taller than her?
TLDR = The Saw series is ALL about the traps, period. They're an after-thought for The Pig in this game.
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First, make the seasons last longer than a month and reward player who are rank 1-5 with an exclusive cosmetic or Iridescent Shards so people actually want to rank up.
Next, get rid of the "safety pip". You either win or lose, rank up or rank down. Easiest solution imo.
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I don't like the mechanic = "exploit"
You wanna tell me another joke Mr. Survivorman? Let me guess, juggling DS users to hooks is an exploit, too? And slugging the second to last survivor to avoid hatch standoffs too? -
@SmokePotion said:
@White_Owl said:
More NOED-like hexes means survivors will cleanse all dull totems way more often, so it would be likely to not see the perk in action very often.You mean survivors would have to stop doing generators for a little bit and hunt down dull totems that might not even get activated? Why is this bad?
^This
The game needs more objectives to do besides generators and a reason to do them to slow down the gen rushing. That is what Dull Totems were SUPPOSED to be. NOED just isn't common enough to make survivors go out of their way to cleanse Dull Totems. Besides, all it takes is one dead SWF member to let the entire team know if there is NOED or not.With that said, I'd be all for Blood Warden turning into a NOED-style totem. More viable NOED-style totems = more survivors going for Dull Totems as opposed to rushing through gens.
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Hillybilly and Nurse are the #1 answers to keeping up with highly coordinated Rank 1 SWF teams that are playing to win as opposed to memeing around / making YOLO plays for their BFFs. It's why you only see those 2 about 90% of the time at Rank 1 (atleast when both sides aren't boosted from x2 BP / Event farming).
If you want either of them nerfed then you damn well better want something done about SWF.
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Sure. But where is the outrage of Bloodlust not activating when "the Killer is without a doubt still chasing"? You know, for about a year and a half now?
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@Radiant said:
So it took few months and this forum became killer trolls lair like the steam one.Or maybe is just that you killers have a lot of free time now!
lmao
Oh no.
Everyone is disagreeing with you in what is clearly a bait topic and providing logical reasoning on why they do.
Everyone else in the world must be a troll, definitely not you though. -
@lyric said:
It would totally wreck a perk that only goes into effect for end gameYou mean... making it work the same way that it works for literally every other killer in the game? Yes, that would TOTALLY be the thing that murders the perk. It would never be seen again. /s
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@Peasant said:
Adrenaline wakes people up.I'm sure getting swiped by knife-y claw would also wake most people up but it also wouldn't make sense from a gameplay perspective if he had to put everyone back to sleep after M1'ing them, just like here, soooo....
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Most of the "nice" survivors disappeared after the first couple of days and don't want to farm. Why bother trying to farm as a killer when half of the Survivor team doesn't care for it? Might as well just play normal and achieve the same results, and not be bored to death while doing it.
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@SovererignKing said:
Personally the developers really screwed up making his power like that, but they couldn’t clone Billy’s Chainsaw Sprint.To be fair, campy Leatherface kinda suits him thematically (based on the first movie). Don't disturb his basement/living quarters and you won't have any problems. He didn't even leave his place (and "hooked survivor") to chase Sally until everyone else was already dead, he just waited for the teens to come to him while they were looking for their missing friend.
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Camping and possibly downing multiple overly altruistic survivors at once (if the stars align and they're dumb enough) is literally the only thing that LF excels at. The only reason to use LF.
Don't like it? Ask BHVR to buff him so that he excels at chasing as opposed to needing to be butt humping the survivor while they are next to no pallet or window in order to land his chainsaw.
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Clearly spoken from someone who hasn't tried this event as a Killer.
You can get a 4 kill match and still not have a full vial because the survivors didn't drop enough offerings. I'm either getting a full vial or 2/3rd of one as Survivor (assuming I don't get caught early), regardless of offerings.Whereas I'm watching survivors just run at the killer after they've gotten their vial for the match so that they can quickly move on to the next one.
Killers still have to stick it out the whole way through. And they have to perform to get. Survivors don't even have to hit a skill check, just run up to what is essentially a 3-4 mannable totem.And besides all of that, everyone has to do both roles to get their 2 sets, so I don't get the whining either way.
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Yeah, every player should have to grind endlessly for these cosmetics! Because that would totally make for a fun Halloween event! /s
Wait, Holiday events ARE for fun right?
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This is going to be the first time I purchase a cosmetic, actually. They really knocked it out of the park with this one. Much more work was put into this than the Halloween skins usually offered for purchase from other games like Fortnite and League of Legends.

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@Gilly said:
I don't hear anybody, on reddit, this thread or my discord, who is happy that you're only offering 3 cosmetic parts after hyping up this event for weeks.You're actually blind then. Stop whining about receiving free #########.
Or better yet go whine to the devs of League of Legends or Fortnite (or any other dev that offers optional, non-gameplay impacting, holiday cosmetics for purchase) about the lack of free cosmetic skins they give out for holidays. See how that pans out for you.@Gilly said:
Now, I'm unlikely to ever pay to finish off my collections because you've betrayed me hard and I can't trust you to make good events either. You have two weeks to regain that trust and backtrack on your decision. I hope you make the right choice.Uh oh. The guy complaining about not receiving all of the cosmetics for free is giving you a timeline and ultimatum of not buying the skins that he wasn't going to purchase anyways if you don't fix his issue!
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@SpaceCoconut said:
Business is business and we can understand that. This is borderline predatory marketing, and a sign of what's to come if we continue to support this kind of behavior.Jesus Christ. The level of entitlement in this community is sickening. I'm all for "taking it to the man"... but it's goddamn cosmetics... and 3 free ones at that.
I got an idea, go whine to the devs of League of Legends and Fortnite (or any other developer that sells non-gameplay impacting, completely optional skins) for not receiving every set of glorious holiday skins for free. See how that pans out for you.
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Friend. That is a GIANT wall of text. Try hitting the Return button to form paragraphs, no offense intended.
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People are really showing their play-hours by complaining about this.
Oh nooo, now tier 1 and 2 NOED are ACTUAL perks. Jesus. This only affects the low end of the spectrum. -
It's always been meta with SWF. More streamers are playing almost exclusively SWF, and their viewers are picking up on their loadouts.
Survivors aren't dependent on perks. Their gameplay centers around doing generators and looping killers, neither of which really require perk investments (besides MAYBE an exhaustion perk). That is why they can afford to take one-time use perks (DS and Adrenaline) or situational/clutch perks (BT and Adrenaline) while your typical M1 killer will be taking Enduring and Spirit Fury or Bamboozle or Brutal Strength to keep up with loopers and Ruin to combat gen rushing.
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@Elegant said:
There are zero nurse counters. You can't counter her. The only way you win vs Nurse is for the Nurse to play badly. If you play well and the Nurse plays well you lose every single time.That's not balance."There are zero SWF counters. You can't counter SWF. The only way you win vs SWF is for the SWF to play badly or to play Nurse. If you play well and the SWF plays well you lose every single time.That's not balance."
It's a 2-way street bud. Survivors hate when there's a counter to perfectly executed pallet looping, suddenly when the match result is determined by the killer's level of skill as opposed to the survivor's then it's complete blasphemy. Chasing around a looper who actually knows what they're doing as a basic M1 killer is formulaic and predictable and the onus is on the survivor to mess up as opposed to the killer outplaying the survivor. You can try to mind game in rare instances but that will more often than not make the loop longer and, of coarse, the ball is still in the survivor's court to mess up. Take away the survivor's toys (looping) and watch them have a meltdown
