Firellius
Firellius
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@HugTheHag said:
I typically am not near the hook when people get unhooked.
Nor me, but sometimes I'll start a chase somewhere else, and the chased survivor goes for the unhook, banking on the BT block.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315123#Comment_3315123
What's the difference?
Except the killer being unable to outwait the timer ?
The difference is that if a survivor bodyblocks with DS, the killer can simply leave them slugged. Slows the survivors down more than the killer.
Which is why bodyblocking with DS was uncommon, whereas BT bodyblocks were the only issue with that perk.
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This is why DS should've been baseline, not BT.
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@Forza said:
honestly i think DS got replaced by the new dead hard. as weird as that sounds think of a single other perk that as a killer you have constantly play around as much as the new DH.
That doesn't really work, since Dead Hard was also in the old meta build. If DH and DS were used before the change, and DH is still used after the change, it didn't really replace DS.
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@SmarulKusia said:
Gen rush is not happening because anti-tunneling perks were nerfed and resulted in less chases.
Gen rush is happening because they nerfed how quick a generator can be completed - resulting in people specifically bringing in gen rushing builds and focusing on doing generators more. This is further perpetrated by the fact that Killers have generally gotten more aggressive with tunnelling/camping which gives lee-way to those that are doing generators to keep doing so.
Especially now that the meta is to identify the three-gen and camp it with killers like Knight.
Gen rush is not happening because anti-tunneling perks were nerfed and resulted in less chases.
I'm not so sure about that. Both the anti-tunnel nerf and the gen timer increase happened in the same patch, so we can't just look at stats and conclusively state it was one or the other, but I think survivors would be more keen on arming themselves against tunnelling through perks that punish it, if they still could, than on genrushing.
@EntitySpawn said:
The line "killers change their strat to tunneling to improve the chances of winning" highlights the issues well enough.
Killers arent able to win equal matched players without such tactics and then even stacked slowdown is needed if you're playing anything but the top killer on a decent map..
I'm not sure why people dont see how certain changes or balances force certain playstyles. Ever since tunneling has been a thing iv been saying you need to reward and encourage players that dont alongside slightly punishing those that do as atm tunneling can often be more beneficial for the killer.
As for the perk changes OTR will replace DS simply because is so much stronger and before the DS nerf the OTR change made it's way to meta just because of it's pure strength as its not just good for a single use.
The meta shake up change killer more imo, while it's still gen defense (needed) its different. Only thing changed on survivor is DS for OTR and base BT so you kinda get a 5th perk now.
I'm not sure what your post is actually aiming for though? DS basekit? Probably be abit much now but I have always said DS could be basekit if the killer got some love to allow them to go for chases over kills, base corrupt and a reward for actually hooking someone new would be a start
Killers arent able to win equal matched players without such tactics and then even stacked slowdown is needed if you're playing anything but the top killer on a decent map..
That's not the whole of it though. What a killer can or cannot win is also in part dependent on the skill of the player. People like to point at professional, tournament level play, but disregard that this does not represent 99% of the game.
Additionally, the idea that you can't win against equally skilled survivors has a self-reporting issue: How do you determine your own skill? How do you know the survivors you are going up against are actually of your skill level? Especially when tunnelling or camping come into play as methods to bolster your MMR as a result of getting more kills, how do you know that you wouldn't be able to handle survivors of your skill level if you let MMR settle without tunnelling?
And it's not just that, either. My first game as killer when I picked the game back up, I committed to an absolutely atrocious chase where I spent over a minute on a single loop, trying to get the hang of Pinhead's power again. Once I got the down, I could've easily stated that, because the survivors got so many gens done on that chase, I -have- to tunnel. But that disregards that the reason I am in a losing position is because of my own incompetence, not because the game is unfairly balanced.
Tunnelling just muddies the water when it comes to balancing and skill assessment.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3313856#Comment_3313856
Then why don't all killers tunnel every game?
Tunnelling isn't actually fun for the killer. I don't tunnel unless I'm forced to by survivors offering themselves up to me. I prefer to run perks like Make Your Choice and Gift of Pain, and info perks like BBQ and Thrilling to give me another objective besides the hooked survivor. Those perks are enough to stop me tunnelling. Any perk that gives me a benefit for not eliminating a survivor prematurely would get me to not tunnel at all. Any basekit effect that does the same would also convince me not to tunnel. I don't think I'm an outlier here, most killers want to have fun playing the game, not simply win at any cost.
"I think a better thing to try is to make 3v1's less Killer favored and make 4v1's less Survivor-favored."
Is that not exactly the same thing as rewarding killers for not tunnelling?
Is that not exactly the same thing as rewarding killers for not tunnelling?
Not quite. I wouldn't call it a 'reward' to be spared when a new problem is created. But it is kind of necessary to create problems for tunnelling in order to dissuade it, because even if 12-hooking is/were to be as viable as tunnelling, tunnelling will likely be easier, and will still be on the table as an option to bully people.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3313955#Comment_3313955
Oh, I could think of plenty to cripple the Killer in an early 3v1.
if gen ≥ 4 then if Survivor dies,
remove 2 closest gens from the trial
Honestly, for me, the harder part is how to weaken Survivors during the 4v1 phase.
Someone suggested at one point that Ruin self-disabling when a survivor dies is kind of a starting point. Maybe some of the more meta perks should be changed to have variable degrees of effect based on how many survivors are in the game. Some could be bumped up to be stronger if there's four survivors, while weakening when there's three or fewer.
That'd be a pretty complex overhaul though.
Another option that comes to mind is an older idea I had for a hypothetical 'post-camp/tunnel' DBD, which is where the co-op action penalty gets reversed. IE: You work slower when alone, but faster when together. If this effect were to weaken as survivors are eliminated, that could incentivise survivors to stick together early on, making it easier for the killer to put out pressure, but then as survivors die, that benefit would dissipate.
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@StarLost said:
Nyerr...tumpty tumpty (and other non-committal noises) - here's the thing. (Long answer incoming).
- BHVR buffs gens by 10 seconds.
- BHVR nerfs the majority of regression perks.
Okay, makes sense.
However:
- BHVR buffs faster gen perks (or leaves strong ones untouched).
- BHVR adds in very strong gen perks. PTS/Hyperfocus/Stakeout are the big 3.
Now they've basically undone what they were trying to accomplish, and killers have to stack more regression/rely on the only regression perks that weren't destroyed.
Beyond this...meta here is a toxic ouroboros.
A squad of survivors come in with a 'win no matter what' mindset, doing everything they can to get a 4o. A killer comes in for a fun, chill game - runs into that squad, gets two hooks with all the gens being done in about 4 minutes and told to uninstall in postgame.
So that killer goes 'yeah, sod this', loads up their strongest perks and addons - then runs into a group of survivors looking for a fun chill game, 4ks them at 4 gens and they get annoyed. So that squad switches to HSFP and pummels their next killer, and because they feel justified in 'punishing' killers, they are jerks to her on top of it.
On and on it goes.
Now - watching some of the recent tournament games, you can see how - in lab conditions - killers need to tunnel, slug, camp and use every single tool at their disposal...often to get at most 1-2 kills on a pretty killer sided map. That's how strong SWF is at the redline.
When you run into a strong SWF, this game can feel completely unwinnable unless you play equally sweaty yourself. So you go sweaty from the start, because if you don't - and you are facing a strong SWF - you're going to lose and get gloated at. And by the time you realize that it's actually a bunch of solos, you've already got 2 DCs.
Genrush isn't a response to tunneling. Tunneling isn't a response to genrush. All of these 'sweaty' strats are generally a response to running into a few nasty opponents, getting BM'd and deciding that you're going to try and stop that from happening again.
But...
I do lean somewhat towards sympathizing with killers, because there's a definite double standard here. For some reason, it's completely acceptable for survivors to do anything to win (and be nasty after), but a killer going all out - that's somehow a problem.
Best example: mercy. There is a clear expectation for killers to show mercy to the final survivor, and if they don't they're going to get cussed out and called sweaty. But there's zero expectation of a team giving a killer a mercy kill to stop them from depipping.
Ditto - BM. I've been putting together some numbers, and - even factoring in the 4v1 nature of the game, it's maybe 8x as likely for a survivor to teabag and sit in the exit gates to gloat than, say, a killer hitting the last person on hook.
Similarly, I see a killer bail in less than 1/20 of games.
I see a survivor AFK/suicide/DC in almost 1/3 of games (I think that right now I've got it at 32% of games, which is *stupid*) - and that's with me playing incredibly fair and bringing flans or streamers.
There's clearly a psychology at play here that's different between the two sides.
- BHVR buffs faster gen perks (or leaves strong ones untouched).
- BHVR adds in very strong gen perks. PTS/Hyperfocus/Stakeout are the big 3.
You're kind of losing me here, because the only perk that was added was Hyperfocus, and none of the gen perks were changed in 6.1.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312757#Comment_3312757
What lies are you talking about?
There was quite the upset regarding the Pinhead chapter release where the devs promised they were not involved with NFTs, and then they released a statement that they were very happy to work with the people who made NFTs and provided them with the models for an NFT project. That's the most clear-cut case, and there's other stuff that can be argued for.
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As though the devs have never lied about stuff before, either.
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@jesterkind said:
Agreed. Right now it only really works against light proxy camping, which... is fine, obviously, but I'd love to see it function against proper facecamping too. In the same vein, there's no reason it shouldn't work in shack if the basement is right below you, that'd be another great change.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310622#Comment_3310622
You keep saying that even though I'm pretty sure I've seen you acknowledge the actual reason it got nerfed from PTB, what's up with that? You have to know that's not right, so what gives?
I acknowledged that the reason they gave was a problem as well, but I pointed out that the solution they decided on was specifically tailored to remove the perk's ability to reliably and effectively counter camping.
Keep in mind, they changed it from 'use whenever it's off cooldown', not to 'use once per survivor with the perk' or 'use once per hook state' or any other option that would limit its maximum potential, but to an entirely new, unique use condition that absolutely demolishes its usability, especially in solo queue.
It's blatantly obvious that the reason they gave is not the reason they actually had in mind since they went above and beyond to nerf this perk from its PTB show. The reason they gave had simpler solutions, but they invested extra time and effort into making the perk worse beyond that.
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It doesn't counter camping because killers complained that if they played into this perk really hard, it could cost them a kill. I doubt it'll ever come back.
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Am I missing something?
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309194#Comment_3309194
you have 2min use reassurance then you have 3min or distract the killer
Reassurance is 30 seconds, not 60, and you have to give up your own time to use it. And even then you can't always use it because the killer might be defending the hook.
'Distract the killer' - If they stop camping because they go into a chase with another survivor, they're not camping.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Knight is one of those sleeper high-rank hitters where a select few dedicated players get reaaaaally good with him while everyone else says he sucks. Kinda like how Sadako took everyone by surprise by being a high kill rate killer at high MMR.
His power seems to have a high skill floor and ceiling, possibly even higher than Blight.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309043#Comment_3309043
If the Killer decides you are too difficult to chase, why should he not look for a better target?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309046#Comment_3309046
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309052#Comment_3309052
Why are you unhooking against a proxy camper? I dont get that at all.
Why are you unhooking against a proxy camper? I dont get that at all.
Because you don't have enough time to do all the gens before the person on hook dies and the killer is free to get their second kill and confirm a tie at minimum.
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@burt0r said:
Damn i find the irony hilarious at this point. All these complaints about seeing the same killer perks again and again.
And the only thing i have to say is:
Welcome to how killer felt during the years 3-5, dh/ds/ub/BT/.... Any combination of those plus one extra, on 4 survivors, in the majority of games.
Goodness, wasn't that pleasant? Survivors coming in with just DH and no other perks, provided you didn't play like a jerk.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I largely agree with Scott's points here. A mechanical solution to tunneling is bound to create more problems than it solves. And tunneling does create a false feedback loop for killers who rely on it. Killer is nowhere near difficult enough to warrant hard tunneling every game, unless I happen to exist on the same magical server that Scott does.
My opinion: tunneling is a matchmaking issue at its core. It's risky in a well-made match. You stand to lose 4 gens minimum tunneling players of equal skill, especially at a high level. The problem is that this game rarely makes a balanced match. There are almost always 1 or 2 extremely weak links relative to the killer. They'll go down 3 times in the span of 1 or 2 gens. Barring tile RNG, that's a matchmaking issue, not a tunneling mechanic issue. They're not having good chases or their teammates are doing nothing, which again points to matchmaking.
He goes on to talk about overly sweaty playstyles in public matches. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but again, I feel like it's a matchmaking issue. I retired from comp over a year ago but I would love to play against those 4 man comp squads instead of sleepwalking through usual matches. But I get rounded down to the soft cap, the comp squad is rounded down to the soft cap, and we both get relative babies in our games. This isn't to say I sweat like it's a tourney in pubs, but there's zero reason to even make some of these matches. What enjoyment is a 500 hr survivor going to have against a 4k hr comp player, and vice versa? They don't want anyone to wait for a game, and the quality of matches suffers a lot.
I don't think the sweat will ever really go away. That doesn't seem realistic with a playerbase of this scale. It can be managed a bit through matchmaking or some quasi-rank system where SR was added and also used. But a lot of people just like winning and they don't care how.
(As an aside: scrims absolutely suck to set up. A lot of times it takes 20+ minutes to work through the language barrier and get the lobby to actually load everyone in. And then the survivors immediately quit because they're shocked about 220+ ping even though you clearly said you were NA and they're RU)
A mechanical solution to tunneling is bound to create more problems than it solves.
I disagree with this for the reason brought up in the video: We had a solution, and then it was removed.
DS was an almost perfectly tailored solution to tunnelling with how focused it was on its own purpose. Once the EGC disable came in, it would've been perfect. But then it also got slapped with a 40% nerf on top of that to facilitate a 'shift in meta' from DS to OTR, and that's where everything went downhill.
Everything DS got right, OTR got wrong. DS is way harder to use offensively because the punishment for trying to use it offensively is much higher. OTR, meanwhile, does not stack with the baseline BT that survivors got, and thus does not work against killers that tunnel hard enough. The result is that the situation got worse for everyone: Killers are more likely to get bullied by aggressive use of OTR, while survivors are more likely to get tunnelled because OTR is a worse deterrent.
While a complete, 100% solution to tunnelling is pretty close to impossible, we KNOW that DS works. So just bring that back. Finetune it a bit more.
6.1. was just a disaster.
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Boil Over springs to mind, as does Monstrous Shrine. Probably Flip-Flop and Breakout as well.
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@Bardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307502#Comment_3307502
The question is, Why does Reassurance need a buff? It's a very effective tool as is, and just because it can't be used with zero risk in every instance is hardly a good reason for a buff. No perk should have zero risk/cost involved.
What are you talking about? The vast majority of perks in the game have zero cost or risk attached to them, and they're not a problem.
This argument of adding 'risk' only gets trotted out when there's a survivor perk that does something against camping or tunnelling, because I've never seen anyone make this kind of complaint about Fixated, or Botany, or Desperate Measures, or Streetwise, or Distressing, or Unnerving Presence, or any of the dozens of other perks that have zero risk and cost involved.
Reassurance is not an effective tool at all when you consider how niche its function is.
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@Rudjohns said:
Too much hustle for a simple game like this
"meta" should be gone by buffing AAAAAAAAAAAAALL perks, making every single perk as strong as the strongest ones right now
That's not really going to be an option, since some perks are very unhealthy for the game.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308016#Comment_3308016
And while 1 Survivor goes and uses the perk; 2 more are doing gens with pressure to unhook taken off them.
Not to mention it causes the Killer to camp longer before a person dies on the hook, once again buying 2 Survivors time to do gens for longer before the camping killer is back to hunting.
You're acting like the time economy is the same for Killer and Survivor, and you're wrong. The Killer can't camp & patrol gens at the same time (barring a 3 gen). Survivors CAN sneak towards the hook AND do gens, because there's 4 of them.
And if the Survivor is found; well, risk vs reward. Making the ranger longer is literally lowering the risk and raising the reward.
The Perk is buying time for OTHER Survivors to do gens unopposed by a camping Killer longer. So no, it does not need a tiny buff.
Plus, it was broken before the nerf, and easily abuseable to troll with.
And while 1 Survivor goes and uses the perk; 2 more are doing gens with pressure to unhook taken off them.
As opposed to what?
This gets forgotten an awful lot, but the baseline that the game assumes isn't that all survivors are permanently incapacitated. Let's run this scenario four times:
Scenario A: Killer is camping, Reassurance is in play. Yes, there's one survivor using the perk, the other two are doing gens. Those two get 30 seconds of extra time to work on gens. At this point, Reassurance does work. How much work? Well, compare it to scenario B.
Scenario B: Killer is camping, no Reassurance. If the survivors know the killer is camping, there's three survivors on gens as opposed to two. Yes, they don't get the extra 30 seconds, but they do have an extra survivor on gens for the entire time it would've taken that survivor to run up to hook and activate the perk, plus potential extra time if the killer is playing in against the perk. Additionally, the survivor that would otherwise have run Reassurance is now running a different perk, providing a different benefit, potentially saving time in other ways. (IE: Dead Hard, Botany, Circle of Healing, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Hyperfocus, etc.)
Scenario C: Killer is not camping, Reassurance is in play. Killer runs off to pluck one of the two gen-repairing survivors off their gen, survivor with Reassurance runs up to the hook aaaaaaand... Pulls the survivor off the hook. Reassurance does not come into play here at all.
Scenario D: Killer is not camping, Reassurance is not in play. Same as scenario C.
What you are complaining about is Scenario A, but you don't use an objective benchmark. You're just looking at the situation as a whole, with a camping killer trying to facecamp into an anti-camping perk, and think 'wow, this aspect of the scenario benefits the survivors! That's unfair!' without considering what the alternatives are, or determining how much of the situation is down to the perk, or even how difficult it is for the killer to overcome this perk.
Not to mention it causes the Killer to camp longer before a person dies on the hook, once again buying 2 Survivors time to do gens for longer before the camping killer is back to hunting.
This is the part where you actually doubled down on this demented forum mentality that's going around: Anti-camp is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with my camping.
When you're playing survivor and you try to flashlight and bodyblook and hook sabo against a killer with Starstruck, do you whinge about how unfair it is that you can't do that as easily because of that perk? Or do you realise that it's a dumb idea to do exactly what the perk counters?
Do you come to the forums to complain about how broken OP lightborn is because you held S for 10 seconds trying to blind a Wraith that was obviously not going to get blinded?
Making the ranger longer is literally lowering the risk and raising the reward.
Yes. From being absolutely not worth running under any circumstance to 'It might pay off a bit if the killer does exactly what this perk counters'.
The Perk is buying time for OTHER Survivors to do gens unopposed by a camping Killer longer. So no, it does not need a tiny buff.
A perk that requires a killer to play into it in order to have any benefit needs to have a reasonable effect. Reassurance doesn't have that.
Plus, it was broken before the nerf, and easily abuseable to troll with.
Yes. You could troll with it.
But you could only troll THE SURVIVOR. Not the killer.
The problem it had in PTB was that it could allow a bully squad to keep a survivor on hook indefinitely by refusing to rescue. All it needed was an option for the hooked survivor to deny the effect and it would've been fine. Instead it got the dumbest nerf possible in order to make sure that campers could just continue merrily camping away because the value the perk offers was neutered. (Even in a way that specifically also nerfs solos over swiffers, fancy that)
Camping deserved baseline nerfs. We didn't get that. We got a perk for it instead, forcing survivors to sacrifice general power in order to have a very situational counter to a very specific strategy that is absolutely rotten to the core, it got completely gutted, but having it work against the bloody basement (Which no longer has a reason to exist, by the way) is 'too much' apparently.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307898#Comment_3307898
Nothing you said makes the perk useless. In fact, it does exactly what you said it's supposed to do; buy a little extra time.
And I explained how it would be made OP if the range were increased: Survivors could run past hooks from further away. Further away = safer from the Killer being able to chase or hit as quickly.
How is it 'nearly useless' when it does exactly what you say it's supposed to do, except for the basement hooks?
'A buff' does not mean it is immediately OP. No one is advocating for bumping the range from 6 to 60, just enough that the killer can't simply stand on the staircase and completely block the perk's one purpose.
And it's nearly useless because it barely buys extra time. Those extra thirty seconds on the hook are paid for by another survivor going up to the hook and activating the perk first, so the perk's effect, even completely unopposed, is not that significant. Since the survivor has to get close, if the killer manages to injure the survivor running the perk, it's even worse, since that's free pressure for the killer on top of a bunch of extra time wasted.
So overall, the perk is pretty bad. The only situation in which it could have done some work was before the crippling nerf, against hard-camping killers. Now it's borderline useless against hard-camping killers, and completely useless against hard-camping killers in the basement.
Do you see why this perk is not very good and could do with a minute little itty bit of a buff?
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I don't think you can break up 3-gens without royally screwing up the rest of the game. Gens do need to be close enough together that the killer can reasonably pressure them.
But with the hyper-regression meta, maybe some new perk should be able to very slowly cement progress so it's not an infinite battle of attrition. Or, like someone else suggested: BNPs should be able to cement progress, instead of adding a free crapton of it.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307840#Comment_3307840
Such a buff would make it OP in every other hook situation, since it would then be activated from further away, and thus from a safer distance.
Just because YOU think it has no use does not mean it has no use.
But that's the point, how would that make it OP? The whole, singular purpose of this perk is to buy a little extra time if the killer is zealously guarding the hook. It is useless if the killer isn't doing that. Even if the killer IS doing that, the perk got slammed so badly that it's still nearly useless.
So how would bumping the range a little bit make it 'OP'?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307775#Comment_3307775
You can use it while the Killer camps. Survivors just want a handhold buff that allows them to use it from the Shack doorway with 0 risk/100% reward, while once again ignoring my point that buffing its range for Shack handholds makes it OP everywhere else.
Anyone going to discuss that? Or am I safe to assume I'm correct at this point?
How is it OP? What does this perk actually do that makes it 'OP'?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307755#Comment_3307755
Don't do it while the Killer is there?
You're basically asking to use a perk, risk free, that stops the Killer's one goal in the game. That's Survivors for you. 'This perk that literally freezes the Killer's one goal is not easier to use in the Killer Shack! Make bigger so we can do it frisk free!'
And making it larger would make it even safter on the other 99.9% of hooks, allowing Survivors to run by too far away to risk being chased or hit. Which, hey, that'd be the Killer's problem, I guess? As long as Survivors get their risk-free basement pausing.
Okay, if you're not supposed to use this perk when the killer is camping, what DO you use it for?
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307233#Comment_3307233
If it could be used unlimited times swf could just abuse it using kindred and open-handed to get 24/7 aura reading on the killer at all times like old object of obsession, but in a zone. Easily making areas into unmindgameable tiles where the survivor can waste exceedingly amount of times because even when they do moonwalking or any fancy nonsense it doesn't stop aura reading its ridiculously easy to loop tiles when you see the killers aura basically like an open tile. So good luck huntress if you are on a high tile that you need to mindgame to get a hit you are going to have to run around that loop 10 times to get bloodlust 3 or simply leave making it all just a waste of time.
That is just one possible combo that could be done not only that, but it could potentially be used as a troll perk, but I think that could be easily fixed by allowing someone to give up or get rid of the effect. People like to throw shade on kindred and open-handed. Still, it's easily the most useful information perk survivors have to offer, and the best part is on small maps it can literally be a free object without needing other survivors to be revealed.
On a map like midwich people could easily abuse this by standing under the hooked survivor, and honestly, the aura revealing is massive, absolutely massive 32 meters, in fact, nearly half the map on a map like midwich. Yeah, it may be a few maps that this could be abused, but it's similar to boil over, where it was awful, and bully squads would abuse the heck out of it.
You might not care about this, but many others do making reassurance infinite would be the worst thing ever cause of just how abusable it could be in certain situations just like boil over. Like, I was joking with my swf when I showed them kindred open-handed the first time on a small map like what if I brought reassurance and just made them into a motion detector lol and honestly, it may not be busted with the current reassurance, but old reassurance it could have been overpowered as all heck to all, but stealth killers.
I think you're confusing it with Kindred. Reassurance has no aura reading at all.
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The real reason is because they're very effective, low-effort strategies.
Though survivors being sore winners certainly doesn't help matters.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307160#Comment_3307160
I mean I think thats reassurance main issue, since it could be a help for solos getting camped, but OG reassurance against people who actually know how to play would be hell, they could just pause the timer and use the hook timer + reassurance as a safe time to do gens, making getting a hook a punishment for the killer rather than a reward.
However since even the top 5% of the "best" survivors somehow manage to die to a meme killer like sadako, imo these teams who know how to play and hence use reassurance to its max potential could be counted with your hands, yet they nerfed it.
People are so keen is seeing the problems perks can cause on good players, when they failed to realize the average player does not know how to play.
It's more than just the average vs. good player thing though. That situation you described is what was suggested as a bad thing for the killer, but it's only a bad thing if the killer aggressively tries to defend the hook. You've got two people hanging around the hook, you just have to chase and down one. They have to come into range to use the perk, so you can use that as your first hit, and profit off that.
But I feel like people are just comparing that situation to the exact same one, minus Reassurance, while not realising that that situation won't happen without that perk.
With Reassurance, two survs could pull off this strategy. Without it, they won't bother. So the aforementioned situation of two survs juggling Reassurance should not be compared to two survs just hanging out, watching the hooked survivor die, it should be compared to one survivor hiding nearby and keeping tabs on the killer, while the other continues on a gen.
And then the comparison doesn't look that bad anymore, suddenly! Fewer survs on gens, and they have to expose themselves to get to the hook to use the perk, versus not having intel on where the survivors are, and them having an extra perk.
It's only a problem if the killer continues to try to camp.
Which just brings it back to 'anti-camp is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with my camping'.
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@Seanzu said:
Reassurance is utterly useless as it is, the time to get to from the generator that I hope you're working on 5 - 10 seconds, to pause my timer for 30 seconds, and then make your way back to the gen 5 - 10 means all it gives me is 10 extra seconds, if that, and if you're playing solo and can't communicate you're going for the safe then other people get off gens it's even more time wasted, at least previously one person could sit there and proc it multiple times until chased away, affording the chance for a save.
Since Reassurance came out it's been used on me less than 10 times and I'm pretty sure people just used it to use it.
It got absolutely slaughtered in the PTB because a couple of killers were complaining they couldn't just facecamp anymore.
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Never. It's an anti-camping perk, and that's only allowed if it doesn't interfere with camping. They specifically gutted it so it wouldn't work against camping anymore, and now you want to buff it so it might be able to do a thing against the most egregious form? Don't be silly!
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@ElizaSteph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306113#Comment_3306113
Yeah I wish they would add more to do like extra escape activities, that way killers wouldn’t have to focus gens too much and survivors wouldn’t be stuck holding m1. Hope those perks see some changes and other ones get buffed or added so you guys can have more fun too <3.
They should've expanded the arsenal of BBQ/WGLF mini-missions for extra BP. Those things were great for general gameplay.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304563#Comment_3304563
Guess which one is prevented by basekit Unbreakable.
It's not slugging for the 4K.
Prevented is a very big word for something that just reduces the time investment from the survivors by a bit, and that all depends on how it ultimately gets filled in.
Unless you think that you should be allowed to let a survivor bleed to death for hitting them while they still have DS up, in which case we're back at 'anti-tunnel should not counter tunnelling' sentiments.
You make the mistake of going for the most recently unhooked target, within 60 seconds of them getting off hook and before they can do anything to help the survivors, you can ameliorate the damage tremendously by giving them a slap and leaving them on the ground. If there's a basekit way to pick yourself up, that'll possibly reduce this amelioration a bit.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304474#Comment_3304474
So slugging is ok now? Because I thought with how popular basekit Unbreakable was with survivors that slugging wasn't allowed.
There is a wide gulf between leaving someone slugged because you can't pick them up, and slugging for the 4K.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304449#Comment_3304449
Cause tunneling as a concept isn't a problem, A survivor should not be immune to getting targeted after getting unhooked or they will use that as a weapon.
The concept of tunneling isn't a problem, how effective it is is.
The swing of 4 to 3 survivors need to be reduced massively and there needs to be an incentive to hook multiple different survivors. But a recently hooked survivor should not be able to stand in the killers face and not die as a result of it
Its effectiveness is a balance concern. But the concept itself is a gameplay concern. It's not good for one survivor to be perpetually stuck in chase and then be out of the game, nor is it good for the other three survivors to be ignored by the killer.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304449#Comment_3304449
Because just like camping, sometimes tunneling is the only option.
You can go to every effort to find someone else but still end up with the last hooked survivor right in front of you. You would be throwing the game to ignore them.
How comes killers are expected to throw the game in the name of good sportsmanship but the same is never expected for survivors? You don't see survivors offering themselves up for a free hook.
If you go after your only possible option, likely after you've already wasted time looking for another one, and that lands you with a 20 second set back on top, you're basically sacrificing a generator at that point.
The only option left is to slug, which apparently as of the last few months, is also as morally reprehensible as camping and tunneling.
Because just like camping, sometimes tunneling is the only option.
The only option left is to slug
So it's NOT the only option, then, is it?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Still a big fan of the suggestion that was made here once of stun for 3 seconds disable killer power for 6 seconds or something
5 second stuns are to harsh for the weakest killers. 3 seconds is nothing for the strongest
It could be a twenty second stun and it'd still be fine.
What's with this attitude of 'an anti-tunnel measure is fine, so long as it doesn't impede tunnelling'?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304329#Comment_3304329
Sure. And if all I can find is the same person I just hooked, because their player is bad? Or everyone else is immersed? Or just due to bad luck?
Welp, guess I need to let them go or eat DS, because Survivors don't like 'tunneling' and believe they control what is acceptable for Killers to do. And apparently 'playing well' or targeting the weakest link is 'tunneling'. Heaven forbid Killers try to win as hard as Survivors.
Slug 'em and leave them. Or if you catch them doing -anything- that helps survivors, just pick them up, DS is already gone.
If you can't find -anyone- else, you have bigger issues than eating a stun.
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@Killing_Time said:
DS shouldn't be useable without an item in hand. The icon is using a weapon to stab the killer. This way... Franklin's demise is a hard counter.
It's already really hard countered by
NOT
FREAKING
TUNNELLING
Just go for a different target and the perk does -nothing-.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303862#Comment_3303862
But what if endgame perks were actually so strong, that they are a real gamechanger for both sides?
But you can't do this for the survivors' side, because there's no way for them to recover once they've lost, short of bringing dead survivors back in. Basically the only thing you can do is make the hatch 'more free' for the last survivor.
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If a survivor perk does something, it's OP and should be nerfed, apparently.
Shining examples of survivor perks that are actually truly, properly balanced: No Mither, Autodidact (though it should be capped at two tokens)
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Obligatory comment pointing out how the number of the beast is actually 616, not 666.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303689#Comment_3303689
The time between after which all gens are finished and the last survivor escaped/is dead. Current endgame is stuck. Survivors 99% the gates and then don´t fear the killer, because he´s not a threat anymore + wait at the exit to say goodbye to the killer. Or the Killer camps the last hook as if his life depends on it. This needs to change for both sides.
That works for the killer's side, but not for the survivors' side. You can't really make a comeback option for survivors that comes into play after the fifth generator, or after the other three survivors are dead. That's the problem I'm foreseeing.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303634#Comment_3303634
Say what you will about the Devs but I honestly believe they are more than aware of the issue and most likely working to address it. They huge hurdle I can see stopping them from implementing anything substantial is that they really would need to rework the core mechanics of the game. I’ve just never seen any good suggestions that wouldn’t hinder killers in a significant way.
Mostly because anyone who dares to make any suggestion will get yelled at.
EDIT: on a more serious note, there is a problem where the community doesn't want to address this either. Anti-camp solutions often get a mix of 'just rush gens', 'it's a valid tactic' and the asinine 'the devs tried one thing, once, six years ago, so it's pointless to try and come up with something'. Anti-tunnel solutions will have killers swearing on their grandmother's grave that they have never gotten a single kill without tunnelling.
The campers and killers are absolutely sabotaging the search for a solution.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303546#Comment_3303546
That's why we need a change in the endgame system. A buff to endgame perks for both sides. That turns the endgame into a potential highlight of the match. With a possible comeback for both sides.
Nice in theory, but 100% unattainable, unless you dramatically redefine the 'endgame'.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303518#Comment_3303518
Well the meta certainly changed with inbuilt BT. It's going to change even more with the upcoming hud upgrade for survivors. Also remember that the game isn't meant to be balanced for a fair 1vs1. As all perks you mentioned are doing exactly this. They give a survivor more power towards a 1vs1.
Problem is that the unfair 1v1 has a knock-on effect on the 4v1, making it unwinnable for the 4.
These perks have always been known as band-aid perks.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303472#Comment_3303472
Like, for example?
Camping - Reassurance
Tunnelling - OTR
Slugging - Unbreakable
Prior to 6.1, the meta loadout contained UB, BT and DS, all perks specifically intended to weaken OP strats.
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@notclaudette said:
every match is always just a million tbags from survivors running windows pretending they have skill. Survivors have so many crutch perks, dead hard, adrenaline, deliverance, otr. Not to say killers dont have the same, noed, no way out, starstruck on nurse (slowdown doesnt count because its practically required to have a figthing chance)
while on the contrary killer has the highest goddamn skill floor its painful. no matter what you do there will always be 1 of you and 4 of them, making every single mistake you make a change between winning or losing. how about instead of nerfing tunneling, the by definition optimal way to play (besides camping), we remove genrushing? or buff soloq so swf isnt as oppressive?
in this thread:
lol get good
dh not crutch perk!
slowdown needs to be nerfed
wow skilless tunneler
"So many crutch perks!"
> 'Deliverance'
I swear, surv perks doing a thing, anything at all, nets it complaints.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303387#Comment_3303387
What has a perk to do with a inbuild game mechanic? Or are you proposing that survivors should require a perk to make the hatch spawn?
As if survivors don't already patch up all of the gameplay issues with perks.
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302628#Comment_3302628
People heard a random killer main say "Survivors like to tunnel gens" and everyone ran with it.
Seriously. The conversation shifted from 'folks stacking BNPs, Prove Thyself, Hyperfocus and Stakeout force me to tunnel' to 'a survivor doing a gen forces me to tunnel'.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301772#Comment_3301772
-"So they can do 2 gens in 90 seconds, or... 2 gens in 90 seconds."
That's a very obtuse point of view considering the gen defense perks we have now are based on one survivor finishing them without voice coms. Eruption and Overcharge are largely pointless if you run away and tell your team to finish your gen while you are being chased. The second killers have the ability to undo a completed generator then it would matter - but that's likely never going to change.
-"Doctor had one of the higher kill rates at high end play. At least he did before MMR, he was top dog back then. Even over Blight."
Stop and listen to what you're trying to say here. Doctor is better than blight at high MMR? You keep saying things that show you know less and less about the game (killer is the power role - kek). Blight was a weak killer when people didn't know about S ,J, Z flicks or hug tech. remove all that and yea he will be a "meh killer" after his addons get balanced to all the other killers. But he will still be better than doctor because he has antiloop and very fast movement.
-"But he got to play, and he got to play the full part of killer."
You say this with either no empathy or the ability to understand high skilled play. If the first option is the case then every noob crying on the forums (according to you) deserves to get tunneled and deserves team members who D/C.
"That tunneled survivor I face camped on the hook had every opportunity to play survivor even though I never went after anyone else and made his rescue/escape impossible." - This is what you are saying.
-"Survivors don't have any catch-up options"
Boons don't save minutes of survivor team time. Neither does prove thyself, streetwise/built to last (and all gen perks), dead hard (and all other exhaustion perks).
Also there are not medkits you can find to heal you. Nor is it possible to get a greentoolbox in a chest. And there can never be a key in a chest- oh wait that is in fact a possibility and you simply don't understand the game (or don't want it to be balanced).
That's a very obtuse point of view considering the gen defense perks we have now are based on one survivor finishing them without voice coms. Eruption and Overcharge are largely pointless if you run away and tell your team to finish your gen while you are being chased.
So you're saying Prove Thyself is pointless if a team has comms. Are you arguing against yourself now?
Stop and listen to what you're trying to say here. Doctor is better than blight at high MMR? You keep saying things that show you know less and less about the game (killer is the power role - kek). Blight was a weak killer when people didn't know about S ,J, Z flicks or hug tech. remove all that and yea he will be a "meh killer" after his addons get balanced to all the other killers. But he will still be better than doctor because he has antiloop and very fast movement.
And on average, Doctor was doing better because he's easier to play, has good control, anti-stealth and tricky-to-use but valuable anti-loop.
But you don't actually care about actual DBD, you only care about the DBD that about 20-30 people play.
You say this with either no empathy or the ability to understand high skilled play. If the first option is the case then every noob crying on the forums (according to you) deserves to get tunneled and deserves team members who D/C.
"That tunneled survivor I face camped on the hook had every opportunity to play survivor even though I never went after anyone else and made his rescue/escape impossible." - This is what you are saying.
Point flying straight over your head.
Let me put it to you this way: Without relying on 'winning or losing' as part of your explanation, how is the gameplay you showed fundamentally different from normal killer gameplay for anyone who is NOT up against the literal best team in the world?
What part of his gameplay was actually inhibited?
Boons don't save minutes of survivor team time. Neither does prove thyself, streetwise/built to last (and all gen perks), dead hard (and all other exhaustion perks).
That is correct, boons don't save time. CoH might save a little time, but not a lot anymore.
Prove Thyself saves no time.
Streetwise/Built to Last might save time with the right toolbox. Oh, but hang on, Built to Last now also has a time investment to use, so that's probably off the list as well.
Dead Hard might extend a chase a bit, but that's not a catch-up mechanism, is it?
Also there are not medkits you can find to heal you. Nor is it possible to get a greentoolbox in a chest. And there can never be a key in a chest- oh wait that is in fact a possibility and you simply don't understand the game (or don't want it to be balanced).
Chests are literally never worth it. Whatever you get out of it will not compensate for the time loss. Trust me, I've got a dedicated build on David with Plunderer's, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal, and whatever other perk it was I complemented that build with. It's fun, but that's all it is, because it has a winrate of 0%.
There's a reason no one does chests, and that's because it might as well be a reportable offense in most cases. You are just sandbagging your team if you do a chest instead of a gen.
And KEYS?
All right, pack it up, boys! I know the killer hard-tunnelled one guy out in under three minutes and we still have a gen left to do with one person dead, but the killer doesn't stand a chance now that I have a BROKEN KEY THAT I FISHED OUT OF A CHEST!
"Broken keys turn 4Ks into 3Es!" - DBDVulture, 2022.
What a catch-up mechanic, boy-oh-boy.