Firellius
Firellius
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301843#Comment_3301843
You wouldn't
PE lets you do 20% of a gen instantly if you are able to get all 20 charges, imagine being able to that infinitely with no risk of losing the charges
You would be saving a insane amount of time if you didn't lose stacks, that's why the downside is there in the first place
You do realise that the conversion rate is negative, right? You don't get as much progress out of the perk as you put in.
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@Bardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301548#Comment_3301548
If the token loss was zero this would be immensely broken. You can't be serious.
You still lose time, guaranteed.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301481#Comment_3301481
"If you're not talking about the build, then you are not talking about 'genrushing"
Two survivors can finish a gen in about 45 seconds with prove thyself. You can't really stop this because it is too fast. You lose 5 gens and get 5 hooks - game is over. T bagging commences.
-"No, that's you not understanding what a power role is. The killer forces survivors off of gens. The killer can direct the chase"
You need to play a game that has a power role character to see what a power role is. In F13 you can find someone and kill them instantly. That's a power role. Nurse and Blight - ok sure that's a power role. Doctor? Hell no.
"At what point was he impeded in his gameplay? He got his chases, he got his slaps in, he got perk usage, he got his power usage, he's got everything you are promised when you play killer"
He never had a chance to win. SWF is too strong. And the buffs the wraith had during this time got rolled back so that killer would fare even worse now.
DBD is not a fair game when only 2 killers are viable.
-"Tournaments are for spectators. Not for players."
Tournaments do one thing really well : they nerf SWF and limit them so they can't be abusive. Usually this means no perk/item/character repeats (no offerings are allowed). The problem is that efficient teams ruin the game : either killers tunneling or survivors rushing gens.
"Regular" players run a killer for 40 seconds and then get hit while bad players run a killer for 20 seconds or less and get a hit. The best players can sometimes lead killers on a chase for 90 seconds (thanks to team play and dead hard). That only becomes fair if the killer has something to speed up chases or make the gens take forever. Since the killer doesn't have those things he has to tunnel someone out of the game.
Go play VHS and try to queue as teen. Nobody is playing the game. Teen was fun but the monster role was miserable. DBD has been in the same predicament for 6 years with most of the killer cast. There was a killer strike in the first year and around that time it took 15 mins to get a game as survivor. Had another 4v1 game come out around then DBD would have died out. The same could be said on DBD's release wit the infinite window debacle.
Two survivors can finish a gen in about 45 seconds with prove thyself. You can't really stop this because it is too fast. You lose 5 gens and get 5 hooks - game is over. T bagging commences.
So they can do 2 gens in 90 seconds, or... 2 gens in 90 seconds.
Prove Thyself is a tactical benefit in being able to handle a tactically critical gen a bit more effectively, but it does not affect gen speeds. In fact, since PT only comes into play when survivors group up on the same gen, it gives the killer opportunity to exert more pressure. After all, he's interrupting both survivors when he gets there.
Which I've also suggested as an option for improving things for the killer's side: Reverse the co-op speed penalty. Increase base gen time and then increase co-op speeds to off-set it, so that it's easier for killers to exert more pressure. But guess what? You can't have that as long as camping and tunnelling still exist, because it would be a direct and very hefty buff to those tactics.
You need to play a game that has a power role character to see what a power role is. In F13 you can find someone and kill them instantly. That's a power role. Nurse and Blight - ok sure that's a power role. Doctor? Hell no.
IIRC, Doctor had one of the higher kill rates at high end play. At least he did before MMR, he was top dog back then. Even over Blight.
But that doesn't matter, because that's not what 'power role' is about. You're talking about balance, but that's not what this is. Survivors must respond to the killer's action, and the killer is the one who steers that. Therefor, the killer is the power role.
He never had a chance to win. SWF is too strong. And the buffs the wraith had during this time got rolled back so that killer would fare even worse now.
He had every chance to win. Or if he didn't, the majority of survivors don't, either. But he got to play, and he got to play the full part of killer. That's something survivors can't take away. But it IS something the killer can take away from survivors.
@Halloulle said:
Well. From a game health perspective as many players as possible should have a good match experience.
Two issues with tunneling in that regard.
1) This game is intended as a 4v1 with the odds significantly changing once it becomes a 3v1, meaning it's effectively game over for survivors once that happens and it's not late midgame (~1gen left) or endgame. As such consistently turning a game into a 3v1 at 5, 4 or 3 gens left leads to a consistently bad match experience for 4 out of 5 players.
moot counter argument: "But with all the genrushing there are only one or two gens left by the time a survivor has been tunneled out!" - What else are survivors supposed to do? Wait patiently and staying away from gens? All they can do is hold M1. --- Imbedded "but they all bring BNP!" ... No. They don't. - There is a focus to complete gens quickly, true - but again: if you as a survivor have to expect that tunneling and/or camping is gonna happen the only way to win is to do gens extremely efficiently. (It is a self-enforcing circle of misery - but the thing is: survivors are actually at a disatvantage in this 'efficiency race' simply because tunneling doesn't cost the killer any limited resources while BNP are a pretty scarce resource and other suitable TB add-ons are, at the very least, a limited resource).
2) This game is inteded to be engaging for 5 people. In the case of tunneling only two players are actively engaged in gameplay for the vast majority of the match.
But to answer the question: Since you as a player are not obligated to guarantee game health there is no specific reason, other than the game being a better place if people are a chad and still do what they can to cover the dev's behinds when it comes to game health.
Then again, I think the question is somewhat missing the point anyway: It should be "Why shouldn't killers *be able to* tunnel" --- and that is very much a game dev decision.
if you as a survivor have to expect that tunneling and/or camping is gonna happen the only way to win is to do gens extremely efficiently. (It is a self-enforcing circle of misery - but the thing is: survivors are actually at a disatvantage in this 'efficiency race' simply because tunneling doesn't cost the killer any limited resources while BNP are a pretty scarce resource and other suitable TB add-ons are, at the very least, a limited resource).
This reminded me of another point: As many killers keep saying, they'll react to gens going fast by tunnelling/camping, but another issue is that survivors don't have the option of running 'genrush' responsively.
If you go into a trial and spend the first two minutes opening a chest and doing some totems, and then you find out the killer is tunnelling/camping, it's too late to genrush. You're not catching up. Survivors don't have any catch-up options, so if they fall behind, they stay behind, and usually end up 3-4Kd. So if you do gens 'inefficiently', you are legitimately just handing the killer the option to win on a whim.
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I want to use it, but losing 33% of progress made on top of losing ALL of it if you lose a health state in any way just makes it too much of a risk.
Wish they'd lower it to 15 stacks instead of 20 and then reduced the token loss from getting hit to 3, or even 0.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301437#Comment_3301437
-"What is killing the game is the increasing number of bad killers who just camp first hook so survivors are forced to attempt a trade, though instead of going after the unhooker they hard tunnel the survivor who just got unhooked therefore preventing them from even being able to play the match."
Why is the killer engaging in that behavior? I will always do exactly that if I have lost two generators. It is the only way I can catch up. Again look at the math. Compare 2/5 gens done vs 2/9 hooks. Who is closer to their objective? IF I tunnel one person then I might actually be closer because the game is radically different with only three living players.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301401#Comment_3301401
-"So you're not talking about them 'doing gens efficiently', you're talking about them bringing in a gen-rush build with Hyperfocus/Stake-out and BNPs. But how often do you see those?"
I see efficient gen rushing every game. It does not have to be that specific build. The first chase costs a minimum of two generators vs good players. The only time it does not is when it costs 3 gens; ok I kid - sometimes I down someone right next to a 90% generator so I kick that gen then hook them neaby and camp the gen and the hook for double value.
-"As much as the forums are loathe to admit it, the killer is the power role."
Killer is the power role when it's your first week playing vs noobs who have never played the game (and everyone plays solo). Until you get to "average" players then the game becomes equal.
When you get good at survivor they are the power role. This is why every DBD tournament heavily restricts survivor perks items and character repeats.
This shows that you know very little about the game or play it at a very low level.
-"It doesn't matter how badly survivors try to rush those gens ... it does not impede the killer's core gameplay"
You don't even look at high level play do you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3J-WImbQIs
And this team is limited by tournament rules. I played a team on this level tonight and they could bring whatever they wanted. They stacked luck offerings and picked the map. In a tournament the map is picked by the system to pick a fair map. This video is old as it shows wraith pre nerf but you can see the idea clearly.
I see efficient gen rushing every game. It does not have to be that specific build. The first chase costs a minimum of two generators vs good players. The only time it does not is when it costs 3 gens; ok I kid - sometimes I down someone right next to a 90% generator so I kick that gen then hook them neaby and camp the gen and the hook for double value.
If you're not talking about the build, then you are not talking about 'genrushing': you're talking about survivors doing gens -at all-.
Killer is the power role when it's your first week playing vs noobs who have never played the game (and everyone plays solo). Until you get to "average" players then the game becomes equal.
When you get good at survivor they are the power role. This is why every DBD tournament heavily restricts survivor perks items and character repeats.
This shows that you know very little about the game or play it at a very low level.
No, that's you not understanding what a power role is. The killer forces survivors off of gens. The killer can direct the chase. It is way harder for survivors to force the killer than the other way around. Even if the killer is losing, they are still the power role.
You don't even look at high level play do you.
At what point was he impeded in his gameplay? He got his chases, he got his slaps in, he got perk usage, he got his power usage, he's got everything you are promised when you play killer. He just didn't win.
You -could- try to argue that he didn't get a hook so he didn't get that part, but if you have to reach to the literal best team in the world to reach that point, your argument is divorced from the game at large.
'Oh, but tournament play'
Tournaments are for spectators. Not for players. You want to use that as your baseline, you might as well quit the game, because the only way that is going to get what it wants is for the rest of the game to die.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
So pain res would only do 10%, MS 10%, etc.
Pain res is a nice perk but I don't run it purely because of the rng spawns of scourge hooks.
I think id honestly prefer it.
How about a half and half?
You get a diminished effect for any hook, but the full effect for a scourge hook?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301120#Comment_3301120
How does that matter?
My point being: Survivors can, and will, bring every top-tier perk they can, plus tip-tier items, AND have the option of being in an SWF with Discord.
And yet they scream on here about how 'unfun' it is when Killers play to win and demand the developers 'punish' or 'de-incentivize' tactics they don't like. IE: Camping. Tunneling. Slugging.
And we all know, even if the developers added in punishments for all three; The second Killers adapted, Survivors would then whine whatever THAT new tactic is, is now 'unfun' and needs to be removed.
So you're not talking about them 'doing gens efficiently', you're talking about them bringing in a gen-rush build with Hyperfocus/Stake-out and BNPs. But how often do you see those?
And yet they scream on here about how 'unfun' it is when Killers play to win and demand the developers 'punish' or 'de-incentivize' tactics they don't like. IE: Camping. Tunneling. Slugging.
And there's a very good reason why. As much as the forums are loathe to admit it, the killer is the power role. They dictate the game. And that has a knock-on effect where these corner-cutting strategies cause the game to break down.
It doesn't matter how badly survivors try to rush those gens, no matter how many BNPs they take, or how aggressively they use Hyperfocus or Resilience even, it does not impede the killer's core gameplay. They still get to use any perk, and do anything they like. This doesn't go the other way though, as a tunnelling killer with relegate one survivor to 'chase only' and three survivors to 'no chase at all'. So the survivors only get to play a fraction of the game.
Facecamping is worse in that regard, as NO ONE gets to play the game proper, including the killer.
This is why 'genrushing' is not comparable to tunnelling/camping/slugging. That's not to say genrush builds shouldn't be removed, as they are a balancing obstacle, but they're not a gameplay obstacle.
@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301120#Comment_3301120
Well, there is a noticable difference between survivors who split up to four gens at the start and stick to them, no matter what, or those that roam around, some doing gens, some cleansing totems, some opening chests etc.
With the latter I usually get into a chase, down the survivor and on gen pops, or maybe I am lucky and interrupt a gent being repaired at 90%. In this case I will get into the chase with the new survivor and usually hook follows hook and gen follows gen.
In the first case though I down my fist survivor and then 3 gens pop in unison or in a machine gun manner. Now the gloves come off and I play as scummy and "unfun" as possible, tunneling, slugging and showing no mercy.
As crazy as it may sound, but the way survivors tackle gens dictates a lot of the killers options and behaviour. If you take away all the options they are backed against the wall and will lash out.
The problem is that both sides will encounter the so called "unfun" playstyles and after one genrushing/tunneling n camping game too much might change their loadout to a full genrushing // Eruption/CoB/Overload build themselves, just because they feel they need to do this.
BHVR never imposed many restrictions on players loadouts, besides the shared exhaustion timer for exhaustion perks, but maybe its time to implement a coupld of restrictions or caps on slowdown, regression and rushing power, ideally with diminishing returns if certain perks are chosen multiple times, but also informing the players what is at hand.
By taking the hyperefficiency out of the game, the game will be more fun for everyone. But people play hyperefficient builds, because they feel like they have been backed into a corner.
One thing that a lot of people seem to overlook since patch 6.1 is BBQ. Many survivors stated that they hated seeing BBQ every match, but it was actually one of, if not the most healthy perk in the game. Nearly every killer had it equipped for the BP bonus, and as if on accident it also showed every killer all kind of opportunites after hooking someone, peeling them away from the hook without forcing them. Yes, camping occured back then too, but BBQ gave a killer a new target, showed them opportunity and thus kept the game going.
I would propose to find some way to punish killers for camping and tunneling, but also giving them a snol BBQ basekit, ie show them the aura of one survivor when hooking someone and giving them a speedboost of +15% as long as they are moving in the general direction of that survivor, outside of a chase and 16m away from their targeted survivor. This would give killers a big incentive to go hunting instead of camping and even allow slow non-mobility killers to do so without hurting themselves.
Also, maybe we could give killers a one time score event when they hook all four survivors, making this a sort of secondary objective like back in the old days of BP BBQ, and maaaaybe give them a small 15s Entity blocks all gens once every survivor is hooked once and another time once everyone is hooked twice with everyone being still alive, rewarding the killer for spreading the love instead of focusing one down.
The issue is that all this talk of reducing 'hyperefficiency' has been put solely to the survivors, because when 6.1 rolled around, all we got were buffs to tunnelling/camping, and the discussion surrounding those things has not changed at all. Any time anyone brings up that these are a problem, there will be killers rushing in to adamantly defend these things.
Any kind of talk about lowering the stakes in the game right now -has- to start with tunnelling and camping. I've said for a very long time that those are the biggest hang-ups for the game's balance and gameplay, but you can't get any idea through these forums. Hell, look at what happened to Reassurance, a perk that was set to actually severely damage the potency of camping: It got showered with complaints about it working against camping, and was subsequently stripped of its ability to do so.
These discussions go nowhere as long as people can't agree to let camping and tunnelling go. As long as people keep defending them to the death, the survivors will have to be balanced up to them and thus be too strong to 12-hook against. As much as people like to say 'tunnelling and camping are necessary', the flipside is that 'hyperfocus and BNPs are necessary'.
6.1 basically bought into the idea of 'just buff killers and they'll tunnel/camp less!' and it backfired tremendously. So this time, we're going to -start- with tunnelling and camping needing to be punished.
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Not really. The devs have made some pretty bad mistakes in terms of gameplay design, and they're not backing down from it. They're steering the game towards frustration with a lot of the changes they go for.
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Escaping is an enormous chunk of a survivor's BP score, making a death feel like a loss, even if you played really damn well.
Also, it's really bad that the feel-good mini-objectives of BBQ and WGLF are gone.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301049#Comment_3301049
The only way to end tunnelling would be to make it almost impossible to doWhy?
Once again, I ask: If Survivors can do gens as efficiently as possible; Why should Killers be punished for doing the same?
The only reply I ever see is 'because it's not fun to be knocked out fast/early'. And that's not a valid reason. It's like people don't understand that the Killer's goal is to knock people out of the match.
Survivors need to stop thinking the game, or Killers, owe them some arbitrary amount of game time, or arbitrary 'fun' quota, before they can be killed.
Bottom line is: If Survivors can try their hardest to win; So can Killers. And Survivors need to get out of this mindset that losing 'too fast' is some flaw. It's a PvP game, and no one is going to want to play Killer if the game starts taking away control, or forcing sub-optimal plays, for their opponent's 'fun'.
Lord knows I'd uninstall and never look back if I lost because the game 'punished' me for 'tunneling' someone just because I found them most frequently and thus could not kill someone and thus could not slow down gen speeds.
"If Survivors can do gens as efficiently as possible; Why should Killers be punished for doing the same?"
What options do survivors have to do gens 'inefficiently'?
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299516#Comment_3299516
Okay your the one latching onto all these different conditions while I am trying to boil it down to its simplest form.
So one last time there are 2 ada's (I am using Ada because cosmetic options are limited and I tend to see alot of them in the basic outfit) in the match one on hook the other one is going for the unhook you hit them and they unhook both are injured and you cant tell which is which. This can also happen with 2 completely different survivors and a flashlight/flashbang blind so you cant see anything until after the unhook and can even still work if you look away to avoid the blind and the hook was in a tile that blocks line of sight.
So you are left with 2 sets of scratch marks heading in different directions and cant see the survivors so there is a 50/50 chance the scratch marks you choose to follow are the unhooker. My solution kicks in right here making it so there is only 1 set of scratch marks to follow and highlighting the unhooker meaning you chase the unhooker or hunt blindly and deafly for the person off the hook. This makes tunneling a concious decision that the killer is making and even if they see the survivor and decide to chase them, for 10 seconds they are faster than the killer and the killer loses even more time and ground. Plus it works even against most strong killers that can make up the ground because if they lose line of sight there is nothing to track and the survivor can still bring DS as a punishment for when the killer CHOOSES to tunnel.
Now back to without my suggestion and your basekit DS so we know 100% they have DS. There are essentially 4 different outcomes from the unhook, 2 if you know who's who, and 2 if you only have scratch marks to go off of and other factors that make it hard to tell them apart.
So lets start with the most basic one, Killer goes directly after the unhooked survivor intentionally gets the down eats the DS gets the down again and the hook and probably loses 2-3 gens for 1 hook state, I dont think anyone would disagree that this is fine there is no issue here this a textbook Ds being used for anti tunnel purposes.
There are 2 outcomes where you chase the unhooker either by choice or happenstance, depending on whether the survivor has DS. If they dont have DS they will go to heal or gen and getting your down and hook can actually occur while potentially losing 0-1 gens. If the survivor has DS 100% of the time they will more than likely follow the chase and after you down and pickup the unhooker they will interfere with you trying to get the hook sometimes not making a difference other times costing you the hook. If they cost you the hook you may slug them and still get the unhookerand get extra pressure or the unhooker may be gone you lose 2 gens and get 0 hook states or try to wait out the DS timer/eat the DS and get 1 hook state while they get progress towards the next set of gens. In this situation the killer is being punished even though they were actually avoiding tunneling.
The final outcome is you end up on the trail of the unhooked survivor by accident. Chase get the down slug them and probably lose 2- 3 gens and get 0 hook states or 1 if you eat the DS and carry through the hook regardless. In this situation your technically tunneling, even though that wasn't the Intent and get punished regardless.
Gen numbers stated are based on getting first hook before any gens are completed.
As to the penalty shot analogy that obviously missed its mark because if you touched the puck before the ref signalled with his whistle you would get stopped long before you skated down the ice to a postion where you would be shooting the puck. To be more specific with that analogy i was thinking more like you shoot the puck into the net and it hits a bar in the net whch is a goal, but the ref thinks it hit one of the outer bars and calls it not a goal, and Instant replay obviously not being available.
There were still plenty of complaints being made about Ds specifically because the conspicuous action change did nothing to any of the situations I outlined above. Those situations got even more common, because working on a gen would deactivate DS it was more commonly used to harass the killer so the 2 survivors not there could work on gens.
Again you are obviously a much better killer than me because these things werent an issue for you, but DS was the main reason I quit playing killer before Nemesis came out until just before the prestige update came out, and that was just to get as many bloodpoints as possible, and then only really started playing killer again after the perk rework.
Okay your the one latching onto all these different conditions while I am trying to boil it down to its simplest form.
That's the point. If you require this many conditions to set up the scenario you describe, it's not 'boiled down to its simplest form'.
This in contrast with 'Person who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds bodyblocks the killer', which is all that is required to use OTR offensively.
There were still plenty of complaints being made about Ds specifically because the conspicuous action change did nothing to any of the situations I outlined above.
No, there weren't. I was around during that time and a frequenter of the forums. Nobody complained about getting duplicate survivors mixed up and getting hit with DS as a result. The only complaint DS got was that it was unfair when applied during the dash for the exit, as it felt like a free escape and a denial of the killer's only option.
Those situations got even more common, because working on a gen would deactivate DS it was more commonly used to harass the killer so the 2 survivors not there could work on gens.
No, it wasn't. Because it's an incredibly ineffective strategy that wastes as much of the survivors' time, or more.
@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299843#Comment_3299843
It depends, because sometimes you are only bad at the game because the survivors it throws at you are usually outside your skill level, scummy tactics are all you have to keep up. As an example right now for me the incentve is on 100% killer bonus and when i queue up I will probably have 8 of 10 games against survivors at a much higher skill level than me and if I get 3 or 4 sweaty matches in a row it can be hard to switch gears when I get a lower/even skilled team.
That isnt the case for everyone all the time obviously, but I know for me when matchmaking screws me over I have to do everything in my power to re-even the odds to make it a fair match.
Why am I not surprised to see the 'I am bad, therefor it's okay for me to tunnel' argument coming from you?
It depends, because sometimes you are only bad at the game because the survivors it throws at you are usually outside your skill level, scummy tactics are all you have to keep up.
Did you perhaps consider that you are messing up your MMR rating by getting kills you aren't supposed to get by using blatantly overpowered tactics as crutches?
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299113#Comment_3299113
The thing that you are calling a one in a million scenario, of losing the survivors after a hit and having to chose between two sets of scratch marks, that may be the case for you with your perfect tracking ability, I would say actually happens in about 1 in 5-10 matches.
DS and OTR both work against non tunnelling killers the only difference is when they work, which is a major difference. There is a major psychological difference in effect based on that principal, I am gonna use hockey as a reference, but I can probably convert it to any sport if thats not your thing.
The Game is tied In overtime and you get a penalty shot, you go in you deke the goalie, you think you have him beat and take the shot, but the goalie makes a crazy move and manages to make the save. This is OTR you didnt get the goal (the down) the game goes on.
Same situation but instead of the goalie making the save you get it past them, you get the goal, you celebrate, you won the game (chase), and the ref blows the whistle and goal doesnt count. This is DS you got the goal and it gets taken away from you.
There is a huge difference in how each situation is gonna affect you psychologically. There is a reason why you can go back for years of posts in the forum pre 6.1 where DS is complained about all the time, and yet very few post 6.1 complaining about OTR.
The thing that you are calling a one in a million scenario, of losing the survivors after a hit and having to chose between two sets of scratch marks, that may be the case for you with your perfect tracking ability, I would say actually happens in about 1 in 5-10 matches.
You're not talking about losing a survivor, you're talking about losing a survivor, and another survivor with the exact same cosmetic set-up happening to be in that survivor's extraction route without you being able to see the survivor you were originally chasing, while the second survivor was pulled off the hook in the last 60 seconds and didn't do anything to progress the survivors' side of the game, and they're also on the same health state as the person you were chasing, and they have DS, and UB, and they haven't used the latter yet.
You are conjuring the most contrived scenario to try and proclaim DS to be a problem, ignoring that this is hard to pull off, not particularly rewarding for the survivors, and can easily go very, very wrong for them.
Same situation but instead of the goalie making the save you get it past them, you get the goal, you celebrate, you won the game (chase), and the ref blows the whistle and goal doesnt count. This is DS you got the goal and it gets taken away from you.
What you are missing is that the ref explicitly told you, five times, to wait for his signal before you can take the shot, and you took the shot immediately after he was done warning you. If you get upset that that goal gets disqualified, that's on you.
There is a huge difference in how each situation is gonna affect you psychologically. There is a reason why you can go back for years of posts in the forum pre 6.1 where DS is complained about all the time, and yet very few post 6.1 complaining about OTR.
Yeah, because for years, DS did not deactivate for conspic actions. Original DS didn't even require you to be unhooked. The DS that existed immediately before 6.1 had ONE complaint about it, which was that it felt unfair during EGC. And that was clipped off with 6.1.
It has nothing to do with any kind of 'psychological impact' of DS.
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A little buff that absolutely won't help swiffers is showing survivor load-outs to other survivors. Let other solo queue folks know that I'm running a healing build with Desperate Measures, Botany, and that Yoichi perk that makes my aura show up to injured survivors, so that they know what that info means and what they need to do if they're injured.
It'd at least -help-, somewhat.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299059#Comment_3299059
But in the situation where the unhook happens right in front of me and the person off hook tanks a hit with BT unless they have time to mend which I am not going to give them if they are the survivor I end up chasing then the only way OTR even comes into play is if they use DS to reset their mend which with the current ds isnt often an issue because most people dont run it.
Your example is inherently flawed in the sense that once again you arent taking into account that not everyone has perfect tracking, if after the hit all I can see are scratch marks going in 2 different directions and dont know which is which I have a 50% chance of chasing the right one.
If i end up chasing the unhooker the person who tanked the hit will have to mend losing several seconds of potential progress and I dont actually lose anything because I am pressuring the other survivor towards getting a down, so in that situation I am actually gaining however many seconds of slowdown from the mend timer
If i end up chasing the bodyblocker, and get that down and then get hit with DS, I get punished and lose time, but i have no choice but to follow through because I have already commited time into that down and since I dont know where anyone is I have no real option but to continue on that person and because now I'm pissed off, because I really wasnt trying to tunnel, but got punished for it anyways, I am going to camp/tunnel that person to death.
Compare that to my suggestion where after the unhook even if they tank the hit they can essentially dissappear and the unhooker is highlighted, so the killer is more likely to go for the unhooker unless they make the conscious decision to tunnel which is still going to be alot harder with all the defensive effects they have, I mean Im sure you can do it if you want with your perfect tracking ability and game sense but for an average killer its gonna be pretty difficult.
Your example is inherently flawed in the sense that once again you arent taking into account that not everyone has perfect tracking, if after the hit all I can see are scratch marks going in 2 different directions and dont know which is which I have a 50% chance of chasing the right one.
You do realise you keep stacking more and more conditions onto this scenario, right? We're talking about a one-in-a-million type of scenario where all the stars align for a risky strategy that, if it doesn't pay off, practically guarantees the killer wins.
If i end up chasing the unhooker the person who tanked the hit will have to mend losing several seconds of potential progress and I dont actually lose anything because I am pressuring the other survivor towards getting a down, so in that situation I am actually gaining however many seconds of slowdown from the mend timer
Except you also lose time because you go into the on-hit cooldown while the survivor you are chasing makes distance, possibly reaching a new loop. Mending is quicker than recovering from Dying, and they can't recover from dying at all unless they use up another perk slot. DS punishes misuse significantly harder than OTR does.
If i end up chasing the bodyblocker, and get that down and then get hit with DS, I get punished and lose time, but i have no choice but to follow through because I have already commited time into that down and since I dont know where anyone is I have no real option but to continue on that person and because now I'm pissed off, because I really wasnt trying to tunnel, but got punished for it anyways, I am going to camp/tunnel that person to death.
Yes, this is the current situation, and why OTR is not fine. It works against non-tunnelling killers, unlike DS.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298768#Comment_3298768
OTR is fine and balanced, it was fine as an anti tunnel perk before basekit BT and still fine as it is now, because it protects the unhooked survivor by preventing them from getting downed, instead of punishing the killer for doing their job.
You are partially right about the status tracker, however lets use your example of identical claudettes. I injure claudette before the unhook and try to hit her again after the unhook and the person off the hook tanks the hit at this point I cant use the status tracker to tell them apart, and i lose track of which one is which.
If by luck I chase the right one i get a down and a hook, if i go for the wrong one I get the down and my options are limited, I can slug which with no info to go off of doesnt do alot for me, especially if they have unbreakable which is often paired with DS, so the only real option is to eat the ds and re get the down and hook. So even though I didnt intend to tunnel I still got punished.
This is the fundamental issue with DS, and why it isnt an anti tunnel perk, it does nothing to actually stop tunnelling it is purely a punishment.
I'm all for making tunnelling more difficult, my approach offers making the act of getting the down more difficult and ensures the killer will know they are tunnelling and get punished for the intent not the action itself.
The DS approach applies the punishment with no regard to intent, which is fine to choose the perk on an individual level, but for that to apply as a blanket all the time would be super frustrating, especially when your being punished and are actively trying not to tunnel. If your gonna get punished either way why bother trying not to tunnel, there is no incentive not to.
Imagine if you accidentally bump into someone and they were allowed to punch you in the face, eventually you would get tired of getting punched in the face for something you didnt mean to do and your gonna try and do damage on those accidental bumps since yor gonna get punched in the face either way.
Let's lay out the situation here:
Two survivors are perfectly coordinating so that both are in the same chase. This is inherently a waste of time for survivors. One of the two must have been unhooked in the last 60 seconds and has not done anything to progress the game. Both carry the same cosmetic loadout and they find some way to trade off where you lose track of which is which. You slug the one with DS, but they use Unbreakable to get up again.
That's two perks, very stringent coordination, and a TON of time wasted for the survivors.
Let's compare this to what is currently possible if we compare apples to apples and give any random survivor OTR and DS. Because now the person with OTR can just aggressively dive in front of you and when you smack them out of the way, you're left with two options: Either you change target to them, or you keep on the original target.
If you keep on the original target, the bodyblocker just has to mend for a bit and they're free to do whatever they want. They don't need any assistance from another survivor and are back on a gen with you having wasted a good bit of extra time.
If you switch targets, you can down them, pick them up, and then get hit with DS so you waste even more time.
So OTR, which already has a track record of being used offensively, is fine, but DS, which cannot be used offensively if the killer doesn't pick the target up because then the time cost ends up on the survivors' side, is a problem. You have to pull out a miracle scenario to make the perk actually function against someone who isn't tunnelling, but OTR, where every jack, joe and jill can just throw themselves at a killer, no consequence, is 'fine'.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298763#Comment_3298763
I have managed to use the perk quite effectively on many occasions.
Pre change many a time I had killers break chase to come after me because they heard me cleansing their hex, with new calm spirit that almost never happens. The only time it really puts you at a disadvantage is if the totem is out in the open or if they are running Thrill increasing the time even more.
Ive also used it in my chest diver build many times to pull a key in the killers patrol area giving me a hatch escape when doors were too close together to pull off a door escape.
It's still niche but definitely usable and it doesnt slow down gens or heal so the penalty is pretty minor
It does slow down gens and heals. Every extra second you're spending on a totem or chest is a second taken off of you doing a gen, healing, or rescuing.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298709#Comment_3298709
I find it funny that you have no comment on the actual anti tunnelling effects that I mention adding to basekit BT, but okay lets focus on your points of contention.
1. Survivors cant use it against any killers.
While you are partially correct because it cant come into play if you slug the person, and maybe the issues dont apply to you who is a perfect killer and has only been hit by DS once.
Many of us however are not perfect and there are many circumstances where DS can be used offensively against us.
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell survivors apart especially as there is no restriction on matching survivors and cosmetics.
Using their invincibility to bodyblock/flashlight save and interfere with hooking someone else, as soon as that happens DS should be disabled but isn't.
Fake working on a gen with another survivor, I dont have an issue with this one its a good play but it'll come up in the next point.
2. Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1.
This is false your suggestion is to not only revert it but double its effectiveness. Pre 6.1 you could at least get hit with an undeserved DS and you could at least eat the DS and then not have to worry about it, which was the only thing that made it remotely bearable.
DS as it stands now is fine in terms of its stun. There are things you could add to it to boost its defensibility like I suggested but your suggestion makes it completely unbalanced and overpowered.
Many of us however are not perfect and there are many circumstances where DS can be used offensively against us.
But... That's basically still a failure on your part, not the perk being overpowered. It's not hard to avoid getting hit with DS, at all. I'm not a 'perfect killer', not by a VERY long shot. I just don't tunnel, and I am wary of DS whenever the person that throws themselves in front of me is someone that recently got unhooked.
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell survivors apart especially as there is no restriction on matching survivors and cosmetics.
You have a status tracker. You know exactly who was on the hook and who went down, because this information is fed to you, live. Even with four identical Claudettes, you can tell them apart, because their order in the status tracker is fixed. If Claudette 2 came off the hook, and you hit a Claudette, and you see Claudette 2's status change, you know it's the same Claudette.
This is false your suggestion is to not only revert it but double its effectiveness. Pre 6.1 you could at least get hit with an undeserved DS and you could at least eat the DS and then not have to worry about it, which was the only thing that made it remotely bearable.
Well, if the 'once per unhook' is that much of a problem, we can leave it out, but really, be honest: If you fall for that trick, from the same survivor, twice in one trial? You aren't winning that match or any other, anyway.
your suggestion makes it completely unbalanced and overpowered.
It really doesn't. The problem you're foreseeing is a non-issue with DS. It's an issue with OTR though.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/358640/take-the-penalty-off-calm-spirit
No we ALL cannot, the 30% is actually very minor. 3 seconds on a chest is nothing especially as if you are interrupted it doesnt lose progress. Hex perks are already super weak as it is, but again 5 extra seconds to cleanse a totem and eliminating the sound of breaking bones making it less likely to get interrupted is pretty balanced and not really that big of a deal.
You're not less likely to get interrupted if the killer has an extra 30% time to find and interrupt you. And chests are pretty much unconditionally not worth opening, so taking 30% longer is a huge extra waste of time.
The perk was niche and weak, now it's niche and unusable. It basically joins No Mither and Autodidact in being in the wrong perk pool.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298709#Comment_3298709
a return to everybody and their grandma running DS/Unbreakable/Dead Hard+1 because DS is buffed to be even more effective than before and the response is therefore 'slug' wouldn't be great, I don't think.
Would it make much of a difference?
Tunnelling and camping are baseline problems with the game. If they keep insisting on using perks to patch those holes, those perks will continue to be mandatory picks.
The only thing that changed is the colour of the jacket everyone's forced to wear.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298490#Comment_3298490
Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Your suggestion will lead to 2 things.
1. Extremely long queue times as killers who get hit with undeserved DS get sick of it and leave/play survivor.
2. A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
DS is not the answer to tunnelling, especially with your suggestions, which are super unbalanced.
A much more fair and balanced way to try and reduce tunnelling is to simply add more defensiveness to the basekit borrowed time.
First off double the haste to 20% that gives you 0.2 m/s faster than a 4.6 killer that can be used to loop/get away.
Second for those 10 seconds, block aura reading of unhooked survivor, no blood or scratch marks, quick and quiet with no cooldown, 100% reduction in pain sounds and breathing. This litany of defensive boosts eliminates all but visual tracking of the unhooked survivors giving tons of options for breaking line of sight and losing the killer.
Third and finally the killer gains killer instinct on the unhooking survivor and have all but the unhooked survivors aura shown for 5 seconds, incentivizing the unhooker and any other survivor as a target especially with the difficulty of tracking the unhooked survivor.
As for buffing DS as an option I would be completely fine with applying the entire second portion of my Borrowed time buff for 5 seconds to give it more defensive utility without making it prone to abuse.
Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Survivors can't use it against any killer.
Survivors can't use it at all. Survivors can't force the activation condition. Killers have to work to make this perk trigger. Pay attention to the status indicators and you know who was pulled off the hook last. All you have to do is not pick them up, and the perk does nothing.
I have been hit by DS -once-, and it's not for lack of trying on the survivors' part. But after that first time, I remembered the perk's existence, and whenever I encounter the survivor that was unhooked last, I try to go for a different target. If they try to obstruct me, I make them take a nap.
To say that DS has counterplay is an understatement. In its current state, the killer has to either try really hard to make it pop, or fall for obvious bait. Either way, the killer is at fault and deserves a stun.
A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1, I can absolutely imagine. And it isn't particularly worse than what we have right now.
Besides, killers will threaten to facecamp over literally any change they don't like. It's kind of their beatstick to try and force the devs into doing what they want. I've grown kind of numb to the trantrum.
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@Beatricks said:
DS should be reverted and should activate twice during the match. OTR is a trash anti-tunneling perk that gives value when you aren't being tunneled but coordinate with your team to take hits for one another. Also, remove the skillcheck, there is no need for that.
The skillcheck is actually a really simply, ready-made limitation to DS that it actually does need: It sets a time limit for when the perk can be used. We don't want people using DS after the killer has spent 15 seconds wandering to the hook, they have to use it the moment they get picked up.
But yeah, overall, DS was the perfect anti-tunnel perk. It would waste the killer's time if they tried to tunnel, but if the survivor tried body-blocking with it, it would waste the survivors' time instead. It was honestly so well-designed that when it was theorised that BT was going to be baselined, I was advocating for DS to take that spot instead.
And lo and behold, we got BT instead and tunnelling is more effective than ever. With OTR trying to take the baton from DS, its crappy design immediately reared its ugly head on the PTB with the Endurance stacking issue. Then that got patched out and we're left with a perk that doesn't work against killers that tunnel hard enough due to innate BT, and it DOES work against killers that don't tunnel. It's the exact opposite of what you want out of a perk that fits this purpose. It's literally a worse deal for both sides of the fence.
What they should've done with the anti-tunnel changes instead:
- Current DS becomes baseline. That's the 3 second stun, disabled once the fifth generator is done so you can't get around the deactivation by 99ing the gates. It should also activate off both unhooks.
- BT baseline is removed.
- The perk DS now increases the stun duration back to 5 seconds (Or six, leave it neatly doubled) and then disables active killer powers for a duration to make it MORE effective against killers with impressive powersets, and LESS effective against weaker killers.
- OTR becomes an information denial perk, blocking aura reading, removing blood trails and scratch marks, and turning the survivor completely silent. This will make it risky for the killer to chase after them, as a skilled survivor might be able to give them the slip and waste their time more effectively than DS can. This makes OTR a competitor to DS, but rather than just being flat better, it increases the risk/reward factor.
This would be fairer to killers, as DS and OTR would not be able to be used against non-tunnellers, and fairer to survivors, because they're more effective against tunnelling.
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I think it would be too hard to balance. Your example, for instance, is already a risky pick. It may look fine for things like Stakeout, STBFL or Distortion, but it's going to be a nightmare on Potential Energy.
Any perk that can be used by both sides basically doubles its balancing load.
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@BillsHere101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297426#Comment_3297426
If you run over to another gen the incapacitated effect has run out by then. Idk why you so mad.
That gives the killer 90 seconds to find you, push you off the gen, kick the gen, trigger Eruption, and send you careening back to the previous gen, which has now regressed back to nothing to repeat the cycle. What you're suggesting isn't a solution.
And that's on top of the fact that survivors don't always have the liberty of just 'choosing another generator'. If two generators are right next to each other, one of the two, tactically, -has- to be done.
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It would be nice if she'd be available again, but unfortunately, this matter is entirely out of BHVR's hands, because the reason she's no longer available is because the license was discontinued. That's a problem with the license-holder, not necessarily BHVR.
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I think one of the things that's really holding killer gameplay back is that you're always on the clock. There's no breathing room.
When playing survivor, you have moments of downtime when the killer is after someone else. You can get healed, heal someone, maybe do a totem, most likely you'll be doing a gen. With killer, you can't do that. You are either looking for a survivor, in a chase with a survivor, or bringing said survivor to the hook. You're always on the clock. You have to keep going with no chance for a moment of respite to take the pressure off.
It's also why Cenobite is my favourite killer. Although I really love the playmaking potential of Pyramid Head's power, if, as Cenobite, you pick up the box and unseal it, you can at least be assured that there's almost zero progress being made on gens. That kind of momentary pause on the pressure is super satisfying to get, as you can commit to a chase or afford to make a mistake or two while the chain hunt is maintained.
I really think this is at the root of a lot of killer frustration in the game, and it's really annoying that 6.1.0, rather than fixing this, basically just copy pasted the same issue over to the survivor side.
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@RavenBirb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3289348#Comment_3289348
But the complaints on survivor OP perks rn go ignored I see. Typical lol Not like there's tons of survivor perks right now that make playing killer not fun whatsoever
Care to clarify what perks you're referring to?
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@THEFREAK420 said:
The survivors' level of fun is no concern to a killer. Im not there to entertain you, Im there to kill you, all 4 of you if possible, by any means necessary. But no cheating or hacking. Pretend rules a bunch of kids invented mean nothing to me.
The survivors' level of fun is no concern to a killer.
It is. Because you still need those survivors to have fun, yourself.
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It's going to be super hard, but we can start by deleting BNPs.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295577#Comment_3295577
I'd actually argue that bar a couple perks the survivor meta is largely unchanged for the most part.
In a hypothetical scenario of those perks being gone I agree the escape would probably lower. However, I'd also add that I think there are quite a few survivor perks that artificially carry people to more escapes/wins then they actually earned/deserved.
We can look at some killer perks as an example. Surge, Pain Res, Pop, Ruin ect. All of these perks do not carry bad killers as they require the killer to play well in order to get value out of them. If he gets destroyed they barely do anything.
Prove Thyself, "most" exhaustion perks, Off the Record, BT, CoH, DS, Unreakable ect. Notice the difference? These perks don't require any skill nearly at all, they just give value even if you're a bad player.
There are some exceptions to what I'm talking about here obviously but in general the trend I'm pointing out is pretty accurate. Most survivor meta perks can carry games even if you're bad at the game, whereas for killer most their meta perks require skilled play, they don't just give free value to bad killers.
Prove Thyself, "most" exhaustion perks, Off the Record, BT, CoH, DS, Unreakable ect. Notice the difference? These perks don't require any skill nearly at all, they just give value even if you're a bad player.
I don't know if I agree with that in full. The exhaustion perks certainly apply, but OTR, BT, DS and Unbreakable do require some skill to get value out of. They'll give you -some- value at least if their situations arise, but how much you get out of it is proportional to your competence.
I guess it's also a point of where the balance plateau is currently at, because if the game is balanced -with- exhaustion perks, then they become somewhat mandatory, as you're simply underpowered without them.
It's just a generalised mess. But there's a TON of perks that can do with some buffs, and I feel a lot of non-threatening survivor perks would benefit from being communicated to other survivors.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295655#Comment_3295655
We both know devs don't work like that. When ppl complain about a perk or a perk being used in a bad way, they take the simplest route to nerf the perk. Look at Thana, when it was over buff with the 90sec gens and was being used on every killer their solution was to nerf it to ground and have it be useless on every killer. Eruption going to get the same treatment also I firmly believe. Anyway no I really don't think they changed Reassurance for killers. I was changed bc ppl used it to bully others believe it or not. If you don't that's fine, put your Lil tinfoil hat back on and continue to believe the devs are out to get survivor mains like yourself lol. Have a bless day sweetheart <3
They didn't take the simplest route though. They invented and coded a whole new conditional to restrict this perk. Actually, I think it's two new conditionals.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294282#Comment_3294282
Well, Reassurance was nerfed from PTB not bc of killers but for the fact it was used to bully a survivor on a hook by other survivors. There were cases in the PTB where survivors used the perk to prima keep a hooked survivor on the hook with no ability to escape or kill themselves. Those survivors didn't even attempt to save the hooked survivor either and just keep them on the hook the whole game. That is why Reassurance was changed.
No, it was absolutely done for the killers, as evidenced by what they did. They didn't just make it 'once per hook stage' (60 seconds off a single perk), or 'once per perk per hook' (Max 90 seconds over 3 perk slots), they didn't give a compensatory duration buff (60 seconds off one perk), or any other solution that would've put a cap on it, they literally nerfed the perk in such a way that the damage to its anti-camp potential was maximised. (30 seconds and not a second more)
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@Blueberry said:
It's because the survivor meta perks are so highly tuned that to be able to break into that the new perks have to essentially be way overtuned or "OP" to be considered.
The issue isn't survivor perks being bad, it's more so some outlier survivor perks that are way over tuned and prevent anything else from being considered and those make the rest the perks "look" bad in comparison. The outliers need to be brought down to allow others to be considered.
I think it's also the standards to which survivors are held since the game is being balanced around those outliers, and not the other perks. Wouldn't be surprised if not bringing Prove Thyself, or an exhaustion perk, or OTR all massively decrease your escape chance.
With the old survivor meta, I'd say the only real outlier for power was DH. The rest of the perks were a kind of 'mandatory pick' because they didn't have any competition in their purpose, but that purpose needed to be filled.
I want to experiment more with different perks, but I think match quality will plummet if I do. That said, there's also a ton of survivor perks that are just not worth using at all.
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@Starrseed said:
To start this. Camping and tunneling sucks for the game experience of the survivor. That's a fact. It's also a fact that there are time where it is the right call to camp or tunnel.
So I think most of us can agree on that we want camping and tunneling to be as little as possible. Bhvr could do that. Bhvr could make it less effective so you almost always loose when you do it and that it's only the right call in certain situations.
But and here starts the stuff many people don't want to hear. But that would mean either buffs to killer or nerfs to survivor.
If we take really toxic 5 Gen camping and brutal tunneling where you ignore the others even if you could easily get others on the hook aside it's you often feel like it's the only right call to camp or tunnel.
I want to focus more on tunneling since I think camping is a bad call most of the time aside from endgame. Tunneling is crazy effective and there could be made the point that it is to effective. It feels very bad for the survivor that get tunneld and many survivor tent to say killer that do it are lazy or do it to be toxic and I certainly won't deny that those players exist.
What I want to point out is that since bhvr atm does nothing about it the game now is kinda balanced with tunneling in it. If we would take it out doesn't matter how but let's say it's gone tomorrow Kill rates would drop significantly and not because killers are lazy and don't know how to play but because many rely on it since for most killer a typical game Beginns like this.
You search the first survivor start the chase and since there are still all pallets on the map you most of the time get the down when the first two or even three gens pop. So now you are at a point where if the survivor don't screw up it goes down hill. One is on hook one gets chased one rescues one does a Gen. by the time you get the second hook the first is saved and the fourth gen is probably almost done rince and repeat you are probably at three or four hooks by the time gates are powered.
Oke I know I know this scenario expects the survivor to don't do things like two people go for unhook but what I wanted to show with this is its nothing the killer influences. If the survivor don't screw up that's how it goes. And when bhvr finally gives solo q what they deserve and gives them more info so they don't screw up this will happen even more.
So the killer tunnels because the chances to get a kill that way is higher the game gets better to manage with one less survivor.
I thin when bhvr finally addresses tunneling and camping and helps solo q survivor should not be surprised to either see big killer buffs/survivor nerfs or since it's bhvr don't see them for a year and see q times up to 20 min
To end this I want to say it again. I don't want to defend hard tunneling and facecamping in any way all I want to say is since bhvr don't do anything about it for so long it now is part of the balance.
What are your opinions about it
But and here starts the stuff many people don't want to hear. But that would mean either buffs to killer or nerfs to survivor.
First off: Is that true?
I know the argument gets trotted out frequently that 'killers can't win if they don't camp/tunnel', but the problem with that is that killer skill levels are also a factor, and so is the skill based matchmaking. If you're employing these techniques as crutches and they prop up your MMR, why wouldn't you end up playing against survivors that are above your appropriate skill level?
And secondly: Consider the inverse as well. If killers want to keep camping/tunnelling, survivors will need a hefty buff or killers need nerfs elsewhere.
The problem with camping/tunnelling is that it creates entirely different balancing plateaus. We can either balance for 'no camp/tunnel' or 'camp/tunnel', but not both. Same issue arises with, for example, Brand New Part, which is why I think it needs to be deleted.
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@GrimoireWeiss said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294614#Comment_3294614
But that's the problem, how do you even make perks that are as good as Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, CoH, OTR, Windows, etc? The line between a perk being useful and OP is very thin and devs need to be careful with it, especially on the survivor side where people can repeat the same perks. Just for example, Eruption went from a meh perk to being insanely broken just with some number buffs, and that's a perk on the killer side which is easier to balance.
On occasion they come close, but then they have a tendency to tie it down with so many drawbacks that the perk becomes unusable. A lot of survivor perks have really stringent conditions that could stand to be alleviated. Like Deliverance only working on first hook, or Reassurance only working once per hook. Potential Energy could've been interesting too, but not only does it already cost you 33% of the progress stored, you ALSO lose ALL progress if you get hit while carrying it around.
A lot of perks are close to being fun, interesting picks, but most of them just realistically don't work at all.
EDIT: Also, some perks require other survivors to be aware of them and their function (For the People, Power Struggle, Empathic Connection), so they could very quickly buff a TON of under-utilised survivor perks if they showed ally survivor load-outs in the pre-trial lobby.
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@VillainousTurtles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294509#Comment_3294509
The game rules do not change based on someones negative feelings about the valid tactics used by the other team.
The majority of PvP games do this.
You need a playerbase, after all.
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@Phasmamain said:
Because of immense outcry. Most survivor perks launch with very safe numbers (Think overzealous and for the people for examples) to quell potential hate and then buff them afterwards when nobody cares
Although recently hyper focused has broken that trend
Certainly some truth to this, with how Reassurance was butchered before it could get to live to appease the campers.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293674#Comment_3293674
Sounds like matchmaking isnt working then because those players should match with and against similar players.
Not saying everyone has to play well, but you shouldn't change things to suit those people as it impacts anyone who does put in effort and plays more. You cant expect to do amazing at games in a few hours a week especially if you arent trying.
Not saying people cant go in trying to have fun but they shouldn't dictate how the game should go if they arent trying as much as their opponent for example.
So those players should be asking for a better SBMM instead
Entry level for survivor is significantly higher than the entry level for killer. Basically, killer has the lower skill floor and skill ceiling (Barring notable, individual killers such as Blight and Nurse), while survivors have a higher skill floor and higher skill ceiling.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293250#Comment_3293250
In the past, you could instantly knock down the unhooked person unless they had BT, as well as killing the rescuer. Now, if the rescuer plays it right, they can trade - and you've got perks like OTR and Solidarity that make it even harder.
There are some exceptions (Bubba...) but yeah.
I don't think that makes it less rewarding, it just makes it slightly harder to pull off. It's more rewarding than its ever been due to the aforementioned passive gen slowdown and the increased gen time, basically nerfing the one and only counter.
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It'd have to be really bad to qualify for that, but I basically do it with camping and tunnelling. I just don't employ either of those tactics.
Though come to think of it, I do indeed not use BNPs for this reason, ever. They're a really stupid element in the game and should very obviously be deleted.
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Turns out the Knight does actually have exploits associated with him, so he may need a killswitch pending some fixes.
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@AcelynnBen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292397#Comment_3292397
the point is, just because a killer won a game doesn't mean they enjoyed it
yes you got a 4k, but you are on the verge of a heart attack, is that enjoyable?
If you want an easier time getting your 4Ks in, play against bots.
Don't demand that survivors offer themselves up to be mori'd by you.
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Interesting that the game wasn't going too fast back when it was 80 seconds per gen, but it IS going too fast now that it's 90 seconds.
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@Unam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290589#Comment_3290589
In 10 Games i get around 2-3 Hook Sabo plays.
Coordination? Alexis Toolbox gives you a guaranteed sabo even if the killer hits you. no Counterplay possible. What kind of coordination is required here?
Even Flashlight saves have been made so incredibly easy that there is no Coordination required...
OtR: Oh well the perk, that doesnt require any active doing from survivors besides equipping it (which is hard, i get it...) is terminated in endgame? Oh how ######### unfair if it carried you through the fkn game bcs otherwise you wouldnt have reached endgame... Oh and you dont get the speedbuff of BT when OtR is equipped? really? Check your facts! What the heck do you want? Endurance stacking like on PTB? Where survs could have 4-5 Health States? Are you really trying to justify that? Just open up a forum post requesting an AutoWin Button bcs the killer dared to look at you... Thats just a joke rn...
BT-Still gives you distance. For what? A skillcheck. You complain about a perk, that takes effort to consecutively apply on all gens, yet all the perks you mention as "nerfed" still work and require little to no effort and still provide massive value... Double Standard!
Survivors are not "OP". I never said that.
I said, the Game is heavily survivor sided. That is a HUGE difference! The more stuff you write, the more I understand that you dont get this difference, which makes any Balance discussion with you obsolete...
Your thread is crying about a perk that is carrying killers, while the other side has tons of perks carrying. It is about balance. You cannot strip one side of all their possibilities to play efficiently while the other side gets handhold and pampered all the time. Its about balance. But again, following your argumentation, you lack the game knowledge to understand.
I wrote a post about that. Again, you dont read, you dont understand. This is going nowhere...
OtR: (...) Oh and you dont get the speedbuff of BT when OtR is equipped? really? Check your facts! What the heck do you want? Endurance stacking like on PTB? Where survs could have 4-5 Health States? Are you really trying to justify that? Just open up a forum post requesting an AutoWin Button bcs the killer dared to look at you... Thats just a joke rn...
Where did you get this idea of the speedbuff being gone? OTR does not stack with basekit BT, simple as. OTR doesn't negate the basekit BT, but basekit BT negates OTR, if the killer tunnels hard enough. That's the entire problem with OTR. No one's asking for Endurance stacking from PTR back, but the swap from DS to OTR was a ginormous buff to tunnelling, and some of the dumbest design BHVR has ever done.
BT-Still gives you distance. For what? A skillcheck. You complain about a perk, that takes effort to consecutively apply on all gens, yet all the perks you mention as "nerfed" still work and require little to no effort and still provide massive value... Double Standard!
Skillcheck? BT does not involve any skillchecks. Do you know what BT does?
Your thread is crying about a perk that is carrying killers, while the other side has tons of perks carrying. It is about balance. You cannot strip one side of all their possibilities to play efficiently while the other side gets handhold and pampered all the time. Its about balance. But again, following your argumentation, you lack the game knowledge to understand.
The only 'carry' perk I can think of for survivors is Hyperfocus. I'm pretty sure none of the others can actually qualify, since they either offer very inconsistent value, or very little value. Maaaaaybe CoH, but I doubt that, too. I don't know what perks you are thinking of, but most of the big survivor perks have generally been perks that are necessary for a more balanced gameplay, the so called 'band-aids'. BT, OTR and formerly DS are examples of this.
And I'm honestly starting to think the Exhaustion perks collection are, too, at this point.
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@Wampirita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291008#Comment_3291008
it was being activated by any totem cleanse, doesn't matter if you cleansed a totem, or a random Meg, every Inner in the game got charged, which could be easily abused in swfs
Ooohhh...
Yeah, that's pretty broken. I mean, the perk isn't any kind of superstar by itself, but it's fine enough that it doesn't need any kind of buff.
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3290929#Comment_3290929
then why are these people still dcing constantly
TBF, server stability is garbage at the mo, I think. I got D/Cd while playing a botmatch, myself.
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I was wondering about that, I noticed the other day that it remained active even after getting a heal from it.
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@Adaez said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290275#Comment_3290275
If there's no point playing 95% of the game,I wonder why a lot of people still play,if they obviously not having fun,and dont like the majority of the experience they're having in this game.
That's the point: They don't. They only stick around in matches where they can still win. That's what's causing a lot of the D/Cs and hook suicides.
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It's because there's no point in trying to play 95%+ of matches. With the plethora of regression perks and extended gen timers, killers can very easily snowball out of control. Getting spotted slightly too early, or getting a single bad chase is enough to instantly condemn the entire game. If someone goes down before a gen is done, the rest of the game is not worth playing. You don't have enough boots on the ground to make meaningful progress on gens AND keep the killer busy AND rescue survivors.
The skill floor for survivors is matched with the skill ceiling at this point. You play perfect or you lose.
Unless, of course, you bring out the big toolboxes, BNPs, Prove Thyself and Hyperfocus to overcome the brutally slow gens.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289783#Comment_3289783
I was saying end up weak. Meaning having them balanced at a level for solo which in turn makes them weaker vs swf. In other words, the balancing of them make them weaker vs swf, not in a literal sense of how they work.
But only the way they work can make them weaker to swiffer than solos.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289755#Comment_3289755
"doesn't that end up making it quite weak against swf"
I did.
So tell me, how are these weak to swiffer specifically?