Dino7281
Dino7281
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2710123#Comment_2710123
Oh my. Of course, you NEVER were exhausted on the ground. This was on issue for years, but you NEVER had this...
And no, the Killer did not earn those Hits which get validated. Because otherwise they would not be validated. Before the validation, the Survivor just ended up exhausted on the ground. And you cannot say that the Killer earned that.
Funny is that with logic of how it should work, it should be possible to get DH exhaustion validated as survivor, right?
But It didn't happen to me once since validation... it's normal for me as a killer, but never as survivor. Weird...
It's like their validation is BS and they just shifted problem.
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@lagosta said:
Well, using a perk that only worked 40% of the time bc the validation only accounted for the killer side was fair?
Where the hell did you get your 40%?
Well, that might be true if your ping is in hundreds, but that sounds like your issue.
You always have option to use DH earlier if you know you have high ping, but that is not always option for a killer.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2709763#Comment_2709763
How do you know what ImBrakingBike's mmr is? How does anyone? It's some invisible number that no one knows, I really wish people would stop using this as an excuse.
Well, you can just replace it in your mind with "good" survivors.
Before it was red rank and it's just high MMR instead, but both means same thing. Just good survivors, or at least decent.
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I don't think he is really weak, I just hate how much RNG he is.
His skill ceiling is super high, but he doesn't really get rewarded for it. His chains can be 100% useless on some loops, where it's easy to break them.
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Nemesis and Demogorgon are probably good option.
Wraith with breaking addons is good too.
Wraith, both breaking addons and Brutal Strength.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708884#Comment_2708884
They wouldn't be able to be used in order to tank a hit. They would only disguise survivors, so Victors pounce would cause him to latch on to them and not give them a free kick.
Hey, I am fine with that. It has good meme potencial.
I have a rule that if you make me laugh, you get out.
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It's called Decisive Strike....
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Hell no, I'd like to play Twins few more times without wanting to kill myself.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708800#Comment_2708800
Honestly I'd like that too. I need a way to GG the killer at the end gate as well, I'm on console, so I don't have the ability to type it after a match, and killers automatically assume a quick crouch is a Tbag, when survivors use it as a thanks/GG to each other
I would like to see more emotes for things like that.
So you can "wave" for example.
"Thumbs up" etc.
Just normal things you could use.
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Just give me chat wheel with basic actions to call out and I am happy.
But for ######### sake don't include chat, those toxic shits would waste whole game complaining.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708660#Comment_2708660
All you need to do is imagine near perfect play and never making a mistake that can cost you a single game.
#########, now I have a headache from that, thanks...
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708640#Comment_2708640
And it's still better data than anything you have provided or anyone else has on this 7 page long one-side vs the other-side rant.
The difference between you and I is I'll admit the developers data isn't very good and you really can't base much on this data. Your problem is your data is much-much worse than the statistics the developers gave us, yet you want to draw conclusions from your highly-biased bottom-of-the-trashcan cherry-picking and hear-say.
If you want to draw conclusions from something, then the best thing you have is the developers data, which is mostly meaningless. But at least base your opinion on something that kind-of holds some water.
I don't think anything should be based on this and I have never said it.
I just wanted to call you out on using Big data as an "evidence", because it's stupid.
And using that DBDLeague tournament to "prove" there are other viable killers was even more stupid. You clearly had no idea about tournament rules.
If I want to draw conclusions from something, it's gonna be based on opinions of actually good players and data analysts. That's how IceFrog is balancing + tournament data and Dota is probably game with best balance... So yeah, I will stick with that.
What conclusions did I make?
There is only few viable killers? Nothing new. I am pretty confident about that and you can easily prove that with tournament data. Those killers might be viable against average players and you can get some wins with them, but they are just not viable for tournament level.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708292#Comment_2708292
So you think 5 or so Cherry-Picked games is more valid than the data from the Developers. I can get 5 Cherry-Picked games and show the EXACT opposite of what you showed. That makes me as right as you are, which is not at all.
But here, let's ignore the most valid set of data anyone has, which is the data from the developers and use data from a more recent tournament, that Scott Jund has actually done for you on a youtube video. The tournament was entirely unrestricted, it was recent, and it very closely followed the stats shown by the Developers.
Tournament Indicates DBD is Actually Decently Balanced at Highest Level - Dead by Daylight - YouTube
Now you may said it only is valid for certain Killers, except if you look right below that video, then you will see another tournament that Scott Jund did a spreadsheet on and it too was very close to what the Developers are showing, data-wise, also. Except it didn't have the 3 killers you are talking about in it. It had Pyramid Head, Freddy, Michael Myers, Nemesis, Demogorgon all Killers that aren't considered that good. Except they were getting around a 2.3 kill rate in those tournament.s
So I looked even more to your tournament that "proved" other killers are valid, their rules are actually interesting.
Only killers that allowed any perk are Blight, Nurse. Survivors got banned perks against Spirit.
But even against those killers, survivors were limited hard on items. Usually 1 for each and only common with common addons.
Against any other killer, survivor had many perks banned and items were limited super hard.
It's actually interesting going through it and watching what perks are considered as counters to those killers.
For example Leader was banned against Plague...
Overall, Dead Hard and healing perks were banned a lot.
So yeah, I think I can safely say that this game is balanced only for 3 killers. Well, 2 now, Spirit will get destroyed with Iron Wills allowed...
Lol, you also have permanently banned perks for each game.
KILLER - BANNED PERKS:Individual: - Coup de Grâce - Grim Embrace - Hex: Blood Favor - Hex: Haunted Ground - Hex: Pentimento - Hex: Plaything - Lethal Pursuer - Play With Your Food - Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance - Spirit Fury - Starstruck Combined: - Bitter Murmur + Rancor - Nemesis + Rancor
SURVIVOR - BANNED PERKS:Individual: - Autodidact - Boon: Circle or Healing - Boon: Exponential - Boon: Shadow Step - Blast Mine - Breakdown - Built To Last - Clairvoyance - Counterforce - Corrective Action - Detective's Hunch - Fast Track - Flashbang - Kinship - Mettle of Man - Object of Obsession - Overcome - Power Struggle - Prove Thyself - Resurgence - Small Game - Soul Guard - Vigil Combined: - Iron Will + Lucky Break - Lucky Break + Off The Record
Does this look like balanced game ban list?
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Thanks, really interesting.
I wish he would have youtube channel or something, so I can see his playstyle.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708292#Comment_2708292
So you think 5 or so Cherry-Picked games is more valid than the data from the Developers. I can get 5 Cherry-Picked games and show the EXACT opposite of what you showed. That makes me as right as you are, which is not at all.
But here, let's ignore the most valid set of data anyone has, which is the data from the developers and use data from a more recent tournament, that Scott Jund has actually done for you on a youtube video. The tournament was entirely unrestricted, it was recent, and it very closely followed the stats shown by the Developers.
Tournament Indicates DBD is Actually Decently Balanced at Highest Level - Dead by Daylight - YouTube
Now you may said it only is valid for certain Killers, except if you look right below that video, then you will see another tournament that Scott Jund did a spreadsheet on and it too was very close to what the Developers are showing, data-wise, also. Except it didn't have the 3 killers you are talking about in it. It had Pyramid Head, Freddy, Michael Myers, Nemesis, Demogorgon all Killers that aren't considered that good. Except they were getting around a 2.3 kill rate in those tournament.s
Yes, that is tournament I was talking about with no limits:
but tournament from that google and Scott's video are not same...
Tournament from that video is hosted by wwispy1 and data from it are here:
@zarr said:
Over the last weekend, www.twitch.tv/Wwispy1 held a tournament in which every character, perk, item, add-on and offering was allowed. This makes it special because usually in tournaments there are a various restrictions for these things in place.
I have taken stats on a plethora of tournaments in the past, and every time without fail average kills settled slightly above 2. My experience with and analysis of tournament DbD has contributed to my opinion that the game is actually reasonably well-balanced at the top end, and to my understanding of why the game is statistically killer-sided in public matchmaking. Since killers can evidently compete even against survivor teams composed of some of the very best, most practiced players in the world that are also using voice communications (and do so in very efficient ways) and have highly coordinated loadouts, strategies and tactics, it is easier to understand why in the public matchmaking environment where only around 5% of the player pool even are 4-player SWF groups (of which even less use voice chat, and of which in turn only a tiny fraction is as skilled as tournament players, let alone as practiced and experienced as a team), killers overperform. I think in a scenario of a killer player facing four random survivor players (no voice communication, no prior coordination of builds, strategies or tactics) each equally as skilled and experienced as the killer player, the game is actually favouring killers. I would expect the average result to fall around 2.5 kills. Of course, different killer characters and maps affect things, but we know from public stats that none of them favour survivors universally (even the statistically weakest killer on the statistically strongest survivor map still averages above 2 kills), and so I would assume that scales into the theoretical realm of 5 completely equally skilled and experienced players facing off similarly to how the killer-leaning universal balance scales into the competitive realm. That is to say, I would expect most killers on most maps to still fall within a range of 2-2.5 kills.
One counter-argument against previous tournament stats is that there are various loadout restrictions in place for both roles. I have never taken real issue with that given that the loadouts in these tournament matches are still entirely comparable to those you will see in an average public match (if anything they are much more optimized), and argued that the overwhelming skill, experience, practice and coordination disparity would already more than make up for loadout differences compared to public teams anyway (meaning even with 10 Decisive Strikes the average public group would still not be anywhere near as competitive as these tournament teams are with their 1 Decisive Strike that they are usually allowed to have), but still, those restrictions do make the tournaments somewhat of an artificially balanced realm.
In the tournament I'm talking about now, all those restrictions were removed. So not only do you have some of the most skilled, experienced, practiced players in the world communicating with voice chat and coordinating their builds and plays, but they also get to use the most busted stuff, such as 4 Styptics/Syringes, multiple Brand New Parts, 4 Dead Hards and Decisive Strikes. This is a level of play and coordination and of sheer stacked loadouts that you will never see in public matchmaking. ...And yet, as the following stats show, the killers were absolutely able to compete.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D3QJSAMEUAP8/wispy-everything-allowed.png
So, we have an average of 2.16 kills, again as in all other tournaments a slightly killer-leaning result. We can see that 11 of the 30 matches ended in outright killer victories (3k, 4k), 13 in outright survivor victories (0k, 1k), and 6 in ties (2k). If we take into consideration that 3 times players decided to play non-S-tier killers (Pinhead, Huntress, Oni), we can say that outright victories are basically an exact split between both roles; in terms of kills, 40% of the time killers won, 40% survivors did, and 20% of the time they drew. That's a surprising level of balance given the ridiculous loadouts at play. It is also worth pointing out that killers overwhelmingly often lose less decisively than survivors, which is to say when the killer loses they usually at least still kill 1 survivor (of 13 losses, 12 (92%) were 1 kill losses), while survivors most of the time lose with 0 escapes rather than 1 (of 11 losses, only 3 (27%) saw 1 survivor escape).
Another argument people may have even if they accept the statistical fact that the game is balanced at the top end in terms of kills, is that it is not balanced in terms of hooks. I unfortunately did not count the actual amount of hooks while watching the matches, but I believe that hook stages can still be used to draw reasonable conclusions in that regard. So, if we assume the typical "the killer can just tunnel one survivor to death and then facecamp a second survivor in the endgame to achieve a "balanced" result of 2 kills" scenario that is often brought up to argue that an outcome of 2 kills does not necessarily mean the match was "balanced" in a "healthy" way, we would expect 6 stages to be the dominant result. Looking at the stats, we can see that of 30 matches, only 6 ended in 6 stages, or one fifth/20%. 22 matches ended with at least 7 stages, meaning 73% of matches were killer victories in terms of hook stages, and they were not achieved simply by tunnelling one and camping another survivor. This is also obvious by looking at the fact that none of the 6 2k matches ended in 6 stages, all of them had more. In fact, as you can see further at the bottom of the stat sheet, the perk No Way Out was used in 66% of the matches, and it obviously encourages spreading out your hooks on all survivors. On the flipside, only 2 matches ended with less than 6 stages, a mere ~7%. It is therefore obvious that in terms of hook stages (and in deduction hooks) the game leans even more toward killers.
Now it of course has to be noted that this goes for Nurse, Blight and Spirit, players didn't usually pick other killers for obvious reasons. Either way, at least those three can provably more than compete with even the absolute best that a survivor side can put up (which is way beyond what any public group ever will). This is something that surprised even myself. I always knew the game was much more balanced than many people make it out to be, and tournament results have always supported that, but I did still believe that given the ability to use the absolutely most stacked loadouts of multiple purple med-kits with Styptics, multiple BNP, 4 DS, etc., average kills would at the very least be slightly below 2 rather than still slightly above. Pretty crazy honestly.
In other tournaments even various of the other killers average out around 2 kills and 6-8 stages with 4-kill matches absolutely being possible, but tournaments do show that only roughly half of the killers are viable at the highest level, with only Nurse, Blight and Spirit viable enough to consistently be able to 4k, Twins being a close contender. It also has to be noted that the map pool in this tournament was limited, and although it included Wreckers' Yard, Dead Dawg Saloon, Rancid Abattoir and Gas Heaven which with few exceptions represent the state of balance of most maps in this game, I do think there are more survivor-favouring maps than killer-favouring maps overall. A variety of killers deserve buffs, a variety of maps should be further adjusted. But those buffs and adjustments are not strictly necessary from a public matchmaking perspective - not only can killer players simply choose to play S-tier killers every single time if they so desire, but good killer players win the majority of their pub matches even with the lowest-tier killers. Public matchmaking even with MMR is simply not able to provide good killer players with equal opponents sufficiently consistently. But likewise, the weakest killers could all be buffed, the problematic maps all adjusted, without it all too negatively impacting public matchmaking balance either.
The perks used here tell some clear stories too. There are only 19 different survivor and 15 different killer perks in the total pool. That shows how limited the pool of the strongest perks in this game is - 34 out of a total 185 perks seeing use. Not only that, but if we look at how often the individual perks are being used, it becomes clear that it's really only a handful for either role that dominate: Dead Hard and Decisive Strike alone already make for almost half of all survivor perks used, with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, Deliverance and Prove Thyself making up another ~40%. So almost 90% of all perks used for survivors consist of only 6 different ones. For killers it's similar, with Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, No Way Out, Lethal Pursuer, Ruin and NOED being 6 perks combining for 86% of all perks used.
I do think a ton of perks should be buffed to get them to a level where they are even approachingly able to compete for slots with perks the likes of those mentioned, but I don't think that the limitedness of perk usage at the absolute top level is necessarily all too problematic. In games there always are a fairly limited amount of S-tier characters and items, and it's no different in DbD. Ideally there would be more for a more varied top-level meta, but in public matchmaking you can already get pretty creative with your loadouts without giving up much. However, the perks do tell us a bit about the gameplay and parts of it could be seen as problematic: The prevalence of DS, BT, Unbreakable and Deliverance show that camping, tunnelling and slugging are the most effective killing strategies that survivors have to combat. Maybe the game could be better if it was reworked to concentrate more strictly on getting as many hooks as possible rather than revolve around these strategies at the top end. On the killer side, Corrupt and Pursuer highlight that the early game is crucial for killers, they have to get pressure up as soon as possible. It could help to introduce an "early game collapse" phase after all, such as simply by blocking all generators until the first chase has begun. No Way Out and NOED on the other hand highlight the fact that killers are at a disadvantage in the endgame - healthy survivors hit with a basic attack can regularly make it to a gate even over large distances, and killers regularly cannot defend gates unless they happen to spawn within close proximity of one another. I personally would not be opposed to the idea of having NOED be a basekit mechanic, without the movement speed boost, giving survivors a totem counter at base at the same time. To bring Nurse and Spirit in line with a NOED basekit reality, I think making Lethal Blink hits and Grudge hits not count as basic hits would be a welcome adjustment (it would be even without basekit NOED).
Some other notes: No Way Out's popularity shows that even the best killer players expect to get into an endgame scenario regularly in even matches. I think there has to be a change in mentality of players to not consider a game lost just because all generators have been completed. Given a desired goal of 2 kills and 2 escapes, a balanced match obviously has to see all generators get finished. Not only that, but since killers can almost always all but guarantee 1 kill in the endgame, a balanced match much of the time is expected to see all generators get finished with at least 3 survivors still alive at that point. Food for thought.
I was surprised that Circle Of Healing didn't see more play. It goes to show that other perks are more valuable if you just bring a med-kit. The standard build for most teams was: 4 DS, 4 DH, 2 BT, 2 Deliverance, 2 Unbreakable, 2 Prove Thyself, with everything else being "tech" variations, and Circle not even being a popular tech (only brought in for 3 matches of the 30).
The problematic add-ons are definitely still problematic: Nurse's range add-ons, Spirit's Mother-Daughter Ring, Blight's Alchemist Ring, Brand New Parts, Styptics, Syringes - these are all blatantly overtuned, and particularly the survivors' ability to bring 4 overtuned add-ons is ridiculous. I would even say it's precisely the ability to bring multiple that makes them a problem - if random survivors only bring 1-2 of these (which is already fairly rare), their impact potential is mostly alright. I think SWF groups should have perk and item limitations in place, such that they can only bring any perk or item/add-on at most 1 time. The killer add-ons should simply be rebalanced.
Moris are still the most balance-relevant offering in the game. Without map offerings, survivors in this tournament usually burned Petrified Oaks, and their impact on the matches was moderate at most. The Ebony Memento Moris that killers usually burned on the other hand consistently made much more of a difference. Bypassing any and all rescue mechanics (DS, bodyblock and sabo plays, pallet and flashlight saves) as well as saving time and holding positions particularly in the endgame turned out to be crucial at various points in these matches. That said, I still think moris are in a fairly good spot now.
Final note: The finals of the tournament are actually still to be played out. They will happen next weekend, so keep on eye out on the stream I linked.
About second tournament that it is balanced for weaker killers. It's funny how little you know about it, when you decided to use it as an argument.
First: they had to play those killers. It's not like they chose them, for each round there were chosen killer and map for both teams.
Second: if you actually did some research, then you would find out that items and perks were limited hard for survivors.
For example rules for Ghostface round:
BANNED PERKS for a killer:
- Deadlock
- Forced Penance
- No Way Out
- Save the Best for Last
Some decent, but not that bad... now survivors:
BANNED PERKS:
- Alert
- Botany Knowledge
- Dark Sense
- Dead Hard
- Deja Vu
- Deliverence
- Desperate Measures
- Guardian
- Inner Healing
- Kindred
- Leader
- Premonition
- Renewal
- Self Care
- Solidarity
- Spine Chill
- Visionary
ALLOWED ITEMS: 1 x Firecracker 1 x Uncommon Flashlight
0 medkits, 0 toolboxes...
Those games wasn't balanced normally, they were limited by rules a lot...
About big data:
Why is it not valid?
We can use tournament data, it's just rare to see 0 kills unless killer gave up. You usually get at least 1 kill by camping in end-game. So 50% is not really balanced, because result is not between 0-4, it's between 1-4. That's why that data is kinda boosted.
We don't know how many games it is (sample size), we don't know MMR (new survivors die more), we don't know hooks (1 kill with 3 hooks is not same as 1 kill with 1 hook).
You can see biggest flaw with big data in few seconds. Is Nurse worst killer in the game? No, she is best killer. It kinda looks like there is more to it than just big data...
Big data from each game was always bad, many games failed when tried to balance using it. It's just bad. It doesn't reflect actual balance at all.
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@BenihimeWrath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708556#Comment_2708556
Thats not even the worst offender I've personally had. I've been rejected, had the hit, and then got auto aimed to a different survivor. (basement hooks).
What could be worst?
Denied grab into dead hard validation :D
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@BenihimeWrath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707588#Comment_2707588
Stalking does make you slower than survivors, not to mention that ghostface can be revealed to stop his ability to stalk. You aren't meant to stalk forever. What you do is stalk for a split second so that your model merges with the survivor. And then you stop stalking, because the killer model takes priority over the survivor model it pushes them out of your way. If you've done this bypass correctly you will end up on the other side of the survivor, leaving behind the body block.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707594#Comment_2707594
I agree, grabs should be validated properly instead of that garbage bullshit of just automatically hitting if it gets rejected.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707623#Comment_2707623
I wouldn't mind a ping chatwheel system which some MOBAs seem to have.
Most funny thing is that hit is not guaranteed, you can get denied grab and miss...
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Funny is that everyone saying there needs to be "ranked" mode, actually doesn't want to play it, just wants sweaty players to go there.
For this to work, you would need some massive rewards for rank and mainly: show your rank.
Otherwise, why would you do it? Everyone would keep playing normal with sweaty builds.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708442#Comment_2708442
Very helpful and understanding. Ty
I am not saying it's fair for console, but it is what it is...
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@Acromio said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708327#Comment_2708327
No. Ansel is not cheating. It only works with games that officially support it, so its use is 100% intended and approved by the developers.
Stretched res is. a. #########. cheat. It uses unauthorised third party software to tamper with the game in a way that was never intended by the developers, and it gives an unfair advantage to those who use it.
Stop comparing these two things. They're not the same.
I can do it just with windows setting? How is that unauthorised third party software?
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708353#Comment_2708353
Filters are fair now and Stretched is so-so?
I must re-read my console manual again...
Sucks to be you I guess? :D
PC master race!
We can mess with audio, filters, resolution, discord, macros and probably something else too.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708353#Comment_2708353
Hm, it's kind of questionable. You're going outside the program to set it to a display mode it should never be in, in order to gain an unfair advantage in the game (that outright nullifies certain powers in ways it really shouldn't). It might not be banworthy, but ethically it would be cheating, surely?
Filters are also outside the program...
Discord too...
Any headset app to get better surround audio.
And stretch res is done by windows setting...
I call something cheating if you actually change ingame files / data. You can do something instantly / infinite times, immortal etc. or you gain support by some form of AI -> it's not your skill anymore.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708327#Comment_2708327
Eh, stretched res is way more cheating than filters, because they actually reveal information that isn't otherwise available. Filters can only mess with what's there.
And if filters are cheating, then arguably any monitor is cheating, because they all display pictures differently. So, kind of hard there.
I definetly don't think filters are cheating.
I just don't think stretch res is cheating (at least not ban level).
It's unfair, but it's just something that shouldn't be possible. So at best you can say it's abusing a bug.
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@Impartiality said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708234#Comment_2708234
Because as a survivor you see when people use it to heal and getting multiple uses feels extremely strong but it’s hard to grasp exactly how much better off you would have been just doing a gen instead of setting up boons and healing.
As killer it often feels better or doesn’t matter too much because they might be getting off heals but they also aren’t doing gens. It is no where near as OP as people are making out. It does make the hit and run gameplay much weaker though
It depends on killer... some killers just can't commit to each chase, which is what you have to do against CoH...
What CoH does is that you can always recover and there is low chance for snowball. It's actually not always true that you waste time by doing this, if you have at least 2 heals done by CoH, then you basically gained time. 12+16+16 vs 4 x 16. You have infinite medkits for your whole team in 1 perk on 1 survivor, it's better to use 2, so there is CoH always active.
I really don't wanna use low MMR BS, but thing is that new players don't know totem spawns, so they are going to waste a lot of time searching for totems. Also they are really not thinking about when or where to use your boon.
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CoH is easy to use, but not really brain-dead level easy.
You have to think a little when and where to use it.
So you can have survivors that are going to lose because of it instead, but I really don't consider strength of any perk / killer based on bad players. If you do that, then Nurse needs some huge buffs...
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Hag got weaker, because of CoH.
But she is still good killer, probably not S tier anymore, but still high.
Problem is that she is really hard to deal with as soloQ, but if you have SWF with some flashlights or just people that know how to play against her, it will be hard for her.
I have played only against few teams that actually was triggering my traps on purpose, so I never got my full web. It's super annoying.
It's kinda hard for hag to commit to chases, so CoH is just pain.
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@Canas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707888#Comment_2707888
And I already was wondering why so many people were simply staring at the goddamn floor while I was spectating them. Turns out they're all filthy cheaters, wow.
I am not sure it's a cheat. It's kinda on same level as filters to see better. Well, stronger...
It is just something that shouldn't be even possible to do.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708296#Comment_2708296
Totally off topic but who does these "tournaments"?
Depends, they are usually just public open tournaments with some limitations for both sides, where everyone can play for prize money.
Hexy with Dowsey have done some in past. It's often hosted by streamers, because they can easily get money to "donate" and stream them to gain money back.
Not long time ago there was no limits tournament, that was interesting.
EDIT: here are results of no limits tournament
@zarr said:
Over the last weekend, www.twitch.tv/Wwispy1 held a tournament in which every character, perk, item, add-on and offering was allowed. This makes it special because usually in tournaments there are a various restrictions for these things in place.
I have taken stats on a plethora of tournaments in the past, and every time without fail average kills settled slightly above 2. My experience with and analysis of tournament DbD has contributed to my opinion that the game is actually reasonably well-balanced at the top end, and to my understanding of why the game is statistically killer-sided in public matchmaking. Since killers can evidently compete even against survivor teams composed of some of the very best, most practiced players in the world that are also using voice communications (and do so in very efficient ways) and have highly coordinated loadouts, strategies and tactics, it is easier to understand why in the public matchmaking environment where only around 5% of the player pool even are 4-player SWF groups (of which even less use voice chat, and of which in turn only a tiny fraction is as skilled as tournament players, let alone as practiced and experienced as a team), killers overperform. I think in a scenario of a killer player facing four random survivor players (no voice communication, no prior coordination of builds, strategies or tactics) each equally as skilled and experienced as the killer player, the game is actually favouring killers. I would expect the average result to fall around 2.5 kills. Of course, different killer characters and maps affect things, but we know from public stats that none of them favour survivors universally (even the statistically weakest killer on the statistically strongest survivor map still averages above 2 kills), and so I would assume that scales into the theoretical realm of 5 completely equally skilled and experienced players facing off similarly to how the killer-leaning universal balance scales into the competitive realm. That is to say, I would expect most killers on most maps to still fall within a range of 2-2.5 kills.
One counter-argument against previous tournament stats is that there are various loadout restrictions in place for both roles. I have never taken real issue with that given that the loadouts in these tournament matches are still entirely comparable to those you will see in an average public match (if anything they are much more optimized), and argued that the overwhelming skill, experience, practice and coordination disparity would already more than make up for loadout differences compared to public teams anyway (meaning even with 10 Decisive Strikes the average public group would still not be anywhere near as competitive as these tournament teams are with their 1 Decisive Strike that they are usually allowed to have), but still, those restrictions do make the tournaments somewhat of an artificially balanced realm.
In the tournament I'm talking about now, all those restrictions were removed. So not only do you have some of the most skilled, experienced, practiced players in the world communicating with voice chat and coordinating their builds and plays, but they also get to use the most busted stuff, such as 4 Styptics/Syringes, multiple Brand New Parts, 4 Dead Hards and Decisive Strikes. This is a level of play and coordination and of sheer stacked loadouts that you will never see in public matchmaking. ...And yet, as the following stats show, the killers were absolutely able to compete.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D3QJSAMEUAP8/wispy-everything-allowed.png
So, we have an average of 2.16 kills, again as in all other tournaments a slightly killer-leaning result. We can see that 11 of the 30 matches ended in outright killer victories (3k, 4k), 13 in outright survivor victories (0k, 1k), and 6 in ties (2k). If we take into consideration that 3 times players decided to play non-S-tier killers (Pinhead, Huntress, Oni), we can say that outright victories are basically an exact split between both roles; in terms of kills, 40% of the time killers won, 40% survivors did, and 20% of the time they drew. That's a surprising level of balance given the ridiculous loadouts at play. It is also worth pointing out that killers overwhelmingly often lose less decisively than survivors, which is to say when the killer loses they usually at least still kill 1 survivor (of 13 losses, 12 (92%) were 1 kill losses), while survivors most of the time lose with 0 escapes rather than 1 (of 11 losses, only 3 (27%) saw 1 survivor escape).
Another argument people may have even if they accept the statistical fact that the game is balanced at the top end in terms of kills, is that it is not balanced in terms of hooks. I unfortunately did not count the actual amount of hooks while watching the matches, but I believe that hook stages can still be used to draw reasonable conclusions in that regard. So, if we assume the typical "the killer can just tunnel one survivor to death and then facecamp a second survivor in the endgame to achieve a "balanced" result of 2 kills" scenario that is often brought up to argue that an outcome of 2 kills does not necessarily mean the match was "balanced" in a "healthy" way, we would expect 6 stages to be the dominant result. Looking at the stats, we can see that of 30 matches, only 6 ended in 6 stages, or one fifth/20%. 22 matches ended with at least 7 stages, meaning 73% of matches were killer victories in terms of hook stages, and they were not achieved simply by tunnelling one and camping another survivor. This is also obvious by looking at the fact that none of the 6 2k matches ended in 6 stages, all of them had more. In fact, as you can see further at the bottom of the stat sheet, the perk No Way Out was used in 66% of the matches, and it obviously encourages spreading out your hooks on all survivors. On the flipside, only 2 matches ended with less than 6 stages, a mere ~7%. It is therefore obvious that in terms of hook stages (and in deduction hooks) the game leans even more toward killers.
Now it of course has to be noted that this goes for Nurse, Blight and Spirit, players didn't usually pick other killers for obvious reasons. Either way, at least those three can provably more than compete with even the absolute best that a survivor side can put up (which is way beyond what any public group ever will). This is something that surprised even myself. I always knew the game was much more balanced than many people make it out to be, and tournament results have always supported that, but I did still believe that given the ability to use the absolutely most stacked loadouts of multiple purple med-kits with Styptics, multiple BNP, 4 DS, etc., average kills would at the very least be slightly below 2 rather than still slightly above. Pretty crazy honestly.
In other tournaments even various of the other killers average out around 2 kills and 6-8 stages with 4-kill matches absolutely being possible, but tournaments do show that only roughly half of the killers are viable at the highest level, with only Nurse, Blight and Spirit viable enough to consistently be able to 4k, Twins being a close contender. It also has to be noted that the map pool in this tournament was limited, and although it included Wreckers' Yard, Dead Dawg Saloon, Rancid Abattoir and Gas Heaven which with few exceptions represent the state of balance of most maps in this game, I do think there are more survivor-favouring maps than killer-favouring maps overall. A variety of killers deserve buffs, a variety of maps should be further adjusted. But those buffs and adjustments are not strictly necessary from a public matchmaking perspective - not only can killer players simply choose to play S-tier killers every single time if they so desire, but good killer players win the majority of their pub matches even with the lowest-tier killers. Public matchmaking even with MMR is simply not able to provide good killer players with equal opponents sufficiently consistently. But likewise, the weakest killers could all be buffed, the problematic maps all adjusted, without it all too negatively impacting public matchmaking balance either.
The perks used here tell some clear stories too. There are only 19 different survivor and 15 different killer perks in the total pool. That shows how limited the pool of the strongest perks in this game is - 34 out of a total 185 perks seeing use. Not only that, but if we look at how often the individual perks are being used, it becomes clear that it's really only a handful for either role that dominate: Dead Hard and Decisive Strike alone already make for almost half of all survivor perks used, with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, Deliverance and Prove Thyself making up another ~40%. So almost 90% of all perks used for survivors consist of only 6 different ones. For killers it's similar, with Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, No Way Out, Lethal Pursuer, Ruin and NOED being 6 perks combining for 86% of all perks used.
I do think a ton of perks should be buffed to get them to a level where they are even approachingly able to compete for slots with perks the likes of those mentioned, but I don't think that the limitedness of perk usage at the absolute top level is necessarily all too problematic. In games there always are a fairly limited amount of S-tier characters and items, and it's no different in DbD. Ideally there would be more for a more varied top-level meta, but in public matchmaking you can already get pretty creative with your loadouts without giving up much. However, the perks do tell us a bit about the gameplay and parts of it could be seen as problematic: The prevalence of DS, BT, Unbreakable and Deliverance show that camping, tunnelling and slugging are the most effective killing strategies that survivors have to combat. Maybe the game could be better if it was reworked to concentrate more strictly on getting as many hooks as possible rather than revolve around these strategies at the top end. On the killer side, Corrupt and Pursuer highlight that the early game is crucial for killers, they have to get pressure up as soon as possible. It could help to introduce an "early game collapse" phase after all, such as simply by blocking all generators until the first chase has begun. No Way Out and NOED on the other hand highlight the fact that killers are at a disadvantage in the endgame - healthy survivors hit with a basic attack can regularly make it to a gate even over large distances, and killers regularly cannot defend gates unless they happen to spawn within close proximity of one another. I personally would not be opposed to the idea of having NOED be a basekit mechanic, without the movement speed boost, giving survivors a totem counter at base at the same time. To bring Nurse and Spirit in line with a NOED basekit reality, I think making Lethal Blink hits and Grudge hits not count as basic hits would be a welcome adjustment (it would be even without basekit NOED).
Some other notes: No Way Out's popularity shows that even the best killer players expect to get into an endgame scenario regularly in even matches. I think there has to be a change in mentality of players to not consider a game lost just because all generators have been completed. Given a desired goal of 2 kills and 2 escapes, a balanced match obviously has to see all generators get finished. Not only that, but since killers can almost always all but guarantee 1 kill in the endgame, a balanced match much of the time is expected to see all generators get finished with at least 3 survivors still alive at that point. Food for thought.
I was surprised that Circle Of Healing didn't see more play. It goes to show that other perks are more valuable if you just bring a med-kit. The standard build for most teams was: 4 DS, 4 DH, 2 BT, 2 Deliverance, 2 Unbreakable, 2 Prove Thyself, with everything else being "tech" variations, and Circle not even being a popular tech (only brought in for 3 matches of the 30).
The problematic add-ons are definitely still problematic: Nurse's range add-ons, Spirit's Mother-Daughter Ring, Blight's Alchemist Ring, Brand New Parts, Styptics, Syringes - these are all blatantly overtuned, and particularly the survivors' ability to bring 4 overtuned add-ons is ridiculous. I would even say it's precisely the ability to bring multiple that makes them a problem - if random survivors only bring 1-2 of these (which is already fairly rare), their impact potential is mostly alright. I think SWF groups should have perk and item limitations in place, such that they can only bring any perk or item/add-on at most 1 time. The killer add-ons should simply be rebalanced.
Moris are still the most balance-relevant offering in the game. Without map offerings, survivors in this tournament usually burned Petrified Oaks, and their impact on the matches was moderate at most. The Ebony Memento Moris that killers usually burned on the other hand consistently made much more of a difference. Bypassing any and all rescue mechanics (DS, bodyblock and sabo plays, pallet and flashlight saves) as well as saving time and holding positions particularly in the endgame turned out to be crucial at various points in these matches. That said, I still think moris are in a fairly good spot now.
Final note: The finals of the tournament are actually still to be played out. They will happen next weekend, so keep on eye out on the stream I linked.
Sadly Zarr tracked only hook stages instead of hooks...
But yeah, kinda top 3 killers only with some other killers that got destroyed.
So yeah, you can say this game is balanced for 3 killers out of 26.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2708292#Comment_2708292
Well if you call people using stretched res "tournament level" whatever that means.
Lol, this is team Oracle. They actually played a lot of tournaments and they are really good. So yeah, I am going to call a team that actually played tournaments "tournament level" :D
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707968#Comment_2707968
At least I actually have some type of proof that the game is more Killer-sided. No one in this entire thread, that is 5 pages long, has presented any valid evidence except for me.
Sure, when you like to ignore context, I can do it too, right? Have you ever heard about team Oracle?
So 1 hook total here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f4GXiJPYmkAnother 1 hook game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou8eqghyNik0 hooks:
https://youtu.be/m3sO-BAgom80 hooks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3J-WImbQIsYou use Big data, which was always terrible to prove anything -> Nurse sucks so much, right? So, I can use tournament level team records to prove that this game is survivor sided.
Big data is super boosted, it just mean absolutely nothing without MMR, number of hooks and pick rate (sample size).
Everyone with some hours know that this game is simple:
Low MMR: Killer sided.
Medium MMR: kinda balanced, depends on killer.
High MMR: survivor sided, except top 3 killers.
Tournament level: survivor sided no matter what.
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I mean, if you are my last BBQ stack, then I feel bad for you, but you are dead...
Otherwise you are going to wait for a long time, because I am too lazy to care about last survivor, I am just watching second monitor and waiting for you to find a hatch.
You wouldn't believe how many ######### finish all gens instead and use gate...
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
The thing is... How would you fix it? How can you 100% know with prove that someone is using it and even when you know what would you do with them? Ban them?
It is possible to remove it.
I wouldn't ban for it, just make it impossible to use.
I wouldn't like it, because I use it, but it might be good idea to remove filters(nvidia) too.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707891#Comment_2707891
Yea, I mentioned it since it was a comparison since people got upset about me saying you can use lightborn to counter flashlights.
Not really. Lightborn is terrible...
It would be decent perk, if it wouldn't be that easy to tell killer is using it.
But you just have 1 survivor that tried to use flashlight and everyone knows (if SWF). Since that moment it's useless perk.
Frenklyn's is actually way better for it and it works against other items too.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707877#Comment_2707877
You say it isn't impossible. And I agree. Nothing in this game is impossible. So why mention anything at all?
You said it works only in SWF. I don't agree with that. That's why.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Easy solution - dont care about stretched resolution.
Sure, it should be fixed. But it will not be fixed, at least not anytime soon. So why should I care about stretched resolution? For most cases, you dont know if the Survivor or Killer used stretched resolution and there is no way of proving it. You can only assume. And why should I get worked up on something I cannot prove anyway?
The only way to know if someone is using stretched res if they are a streamer. And most of the time I just have a good laugh if I see that Blight-player with his Blight in the lobby who is more wide than tall and think "Oh my, stretched res of doom" and thats all.
IMO caring about this is just a waste of time. You will have a bad mood without any way of changing anything about stretched res or even knowing if they are actually using it.
It's easy to tell when you are spectating other survivors, because they are looking into a ground from your POV.
It's also not nice to get revealed over wall as Ghostface...
I don't think it should be that hard to fix, just make it that extra space is filled with black border instead of actually changing what survivor / killer can see...
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It's also broken against Ghostface where you can reveal him over walls...
I would never use it, because it looks like ######### to me...
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707844#Comment_2707844
BHVR has as much of a hard time understanding issues and how to deal with it than anyone on this forum... seriously. People have as much bad understanding of what is a problem and how to deal with it than the devs does. Looking at feedbacks just proves people aren't that much better at assessing things than the devs themselves.
Hey, that's true...
I wish they would learn something about balancing from IceFrog (Dota developer).
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707805#Comment_2707805
Yes it's easy to find them all, but do I have time to find them all while doing saves and gens at the same time?
You just do it while traveling across a map for gens / saves , at that point it doesn't waste much time.
It's way easier as SWF of course, but not impossible as soloQ.
There are maps like Racoon city, or Midwitch where system is same, but it's way harder to find them because of multiple floors, but it's not really hard for normal maps. You just need to use totem hunting perks (I love Detective's hunch), or map for few hundred games to learn spawns...
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707835#Comment_2707835
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707834#Comment_2707834
The problem is more with leatherface making any save impossible. Any other killer you can trade with BT... but not against Bubba. Unfortunately no one has any idea on how to make leatherface facecamping ability less of an issue.
So what, you nerf that and he will get replaced with Trickster...
and bubba would be useless. My issue is that they just don't know how to balance. When something is an "issue" they nerf it into oblivion. Billy, Freddy, Deathslinger...
Sure something is any issue, you can nerf it and buff something to help that killer in other area. They can't do it for some reason.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707582#Comment_2707582
Especially now that Deadlock is a perk, you ALWAYS get 2 kills, no matter what.
If you try to get kills and not hooks, then yeah.
You can always tunnel 1 guy during game and then just camp second guy... That doesn't make it balance nor fun tho...
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707745#Comment_2707745
I'm thinking about something like this: as soon as the fifth gen pops, the killer has 1 minute NOED... and for each token he has (up to 4) he gets 15 more seconds (and it should be notified to survivors like haunted grounds).
If you would limit NOED in any way, then you would have to make it normal perk, not hex.
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Jeff, Bill, Jane are loudest things in universe.
I hope they will never nerf Iron Will...
Jeff is so loud that killer gets Loud Noise Notification when he is injured.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707163#Comment_2707163
That only works in swf.
Not really. It's easy to find all totems on most maps. Indoor maps are pain for it tho.
You have lot of guaranteed spawns and there is pattern how totems spawn -> pentagram, or square with middle spawn. Just play smart and don't cleanse, remember dull totems instead, so you can easily find noed, if needed and you don't waste time cleansing each game.
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He did many mistakes... His build sucks, he is not a good Legion player. Saying this was tournament level SWF is a joke.
and this wasn't macro, it was just binded to scroll wheel. Macro is way more annoying.
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@WeirdlyBearded said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707555#Comment_2707555
As could I. Those are all actual killers and not a boon...cute strawman though!
Undying is an interesting killer. I really want to play it.
Pop is also really good killer that got nerfed...
Well, my strawman might be cute, but it's not as funny as your argument from start!
Argument: I can win against it! Is just really bad.
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Marvel universe would have a lot of material.
Mystique would be cool.
Well, it's not really about Mystique. I just want to copy survivors. There is killer like that in Propnight.
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@Cropsy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707263#Comment_2707263
They don't. It's the killer's choice. Hooks are the killer's part of the game. Gens are the survivors part of the game. Even with such a poor execution, it's obvious that's the game's base framework.
When it comes to facecamping, survivor complaints demonstrate zero responsibility when they still have moves. Don't go for the unhook when the killer is facecamping. Do go repair gens to draw the killer away or open the gates and get out. Either way, super easy solution. Again, the game needs to be threatening to survivors! Everyone isn't entitled to make it. Survivors are not conjoined quadruplets.
Just doing gens is usually not really enough. If you want to get multiple escapes, you have to do 1 for 1 to gain more time.
Your idea would be super bad for the game.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2707708#Comment_2707708
I... how do you think that's a lucky spawn? Or that their complaint is a survivor-sided rant about unfair hook locations? The likely complaint is that all or most of the spawn hooks can show up clustered in one corner of the map, which is the exact thing you don't want to happen!
Or why on earth you think I'm mad. I love scourge hook perks as an idea and I don't even play Survivor. Chill out and stop tilting at windmills. <_>
Yeah, I have a feeling that he missed the point by a mile...
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Just let me swap to Charlotte during fatigue and let Victor snuff boons too.
Then I will be happy to play them again.
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Depends on killer and map, but usually if you know how to loop and hold W, you shouldn't get downed under a minute...
Windows of Opportunity can get you really long chases.