Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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i kinda wish they brag back old ptb demo jolt that had 12%.
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disable all drones or just stand still till laser passes then walk through.
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buckle up was haste. it was useless and terrible perk. the perk is fine now but slugging too abusable for survivor in term of second chances. needs more limits
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572346#Comment_3572346
The regression example fails because you don't twiddle your thumbs waiting for the gen to regress. You actively play the game. You chase Survivors, you hook Survivors, you kill Survivors. Especially if you have perks such as Pop/Eruption/Pain Res. In my example I was assuming 3 Survivors are free, and 1 is in chase with 1 gen remaining. Personally I think a trio gen in ~43s doesn't save enough time compared to the versatility of a ~53s and a backup 90s gen, and losing a Survivor to attempt saves doesn't provide as much value as the 37s of gen time the duo offers, but that's just my assessment of low odds saves.
You keep conflating a flashlight save attempt and a flashlight save success, so I'm curious, how often do you think flashlight saves actually work? In a normal match, with roughly equal Survivor and Killer skill, I'd give it 25% odds in the best case scenario. Do you think it is vastly different? I run plenty of intel perks, for example Iri Cam on Ghosty is a god-send. That basically reduces pickup saves by any means down to less than 1% success rates. Clown Cigar Box similarly hard counters save attempts. Infectious Fright and/or Forced Hesitation seen not too uncommonly on Oni/Blight/Bubba also significantly reduces the efficacy of saves. Not to even mention if you have had a Flashlight Surv pestering you like a fly, you know to expect them there, and can easily prevent the save with an unmelted brain. Other Killers have various basekit intel features like Plague vomiting, or even Freddy's glowing dream Survs. So again, at what rate do you realistically expect saves to occur at compared to attempts?
Soloq isn't going to use flashlights correctly, well just a heads up, soloq is 60% of the game. So even if somehow they could always succeed in SWF, it would sit at an adjusted 40% save rate. I don't think soloq v SWF is nearly as black and white as this, but that is because I would say the saves are down to near nothing for both sides. The other night I just had a tunneling Legion and a duo continually doing pallet (Flip-Flop/Power Struggle) and flashy saves. The problem, was it forced 2 people on gens the entire time, and if they had simply not done stupid acts in the first place (rescuing 12m from the Legion), they wouldn't be in that situation to force the non-duo to pump gens. Eventually the tunneled Survivor died, and we finished the gens. I opened one gate, but the flashlight Survivor duo member still alive refused to unhook, refused to open the other gate while I went for the rescue (I pointed at the other gate and ran to hook). Sadly the other Surv thought she opened it, reached it closed, and died. Luckily (although technically planned) I was able to Deliverance to safety and the flashy Surv hard left. They justified their negligent homicide of the other Surv because she (gen Surv) interacted with the event for her tome... That is how Flashlights melt people's brains, and give Killers (2 in my example) free kills for no good reason.
The regression example fails because you don't twiddle your thumbs waiting for the gen to regress. You actively play the game.
In your example, you said that killer interrupts the gen. ok who cares? if he interrupts gen, the gen takes forever regress, you just work on another gen. If killer leaves gen, you finish it.
You keep conflating a flashlight save attempt and a flashlight save success, so I'm curious, how often do you think flashlight saves actually work? In a normal match, with roughly equal Survivor and Killer skill, I'd give it 25% odds in the best case scenario.
25%? if 1 person is in dying state and two people are going for flashlight save, it is not 25%. it is easily 90-100% especially if survivor purposely out in the open when he gets hit. 2 players that have 99% SB/Background player will almost consistently flashlight save. the last person is on a gen somewhere.
I run plenty of intel perks, for example Iri Cam on Ghosty is a god-send. That basically reduces pickup saves by any means down to less than 1% success rates. Clown Cigar Box similarly hard counters save attempts. Infectious Fright and/or Forced Hesitation seen not too uncommonly on Oni/Blight/Bubba also significantly reduces the efficacy of saves.
your talking about counters to flashlight and using high-tier killers to showcase that flashlight saves can be risky because of chance of getting slugged. i do not think it is so clear cut because flashlight have considerable range. you don't need stand right next to the survivor to perform flashlight save. by default flashlight have 10 meter distance. with like purple add-on, high end sapphire len's, it becomes 12.5 meters. this is not global or anything but you can flashlight save for a considerable distance if you know pick-up animation perfectly. Getting angle is biggest challenge for flashlight saves. The angle is given for 2 people going for saves but not so much for 1 player. 1 player is 50/50 depending on angle of survivor pick-up. you need flashbang to get ~ near 100% saves as solo but that costs a perk slot and is a lot more limiting.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572094#Comment_3572094
They still aren't pumping gens for the vast majority of the time. Also if the Survivor was looping, they typically are within a Jungle Gym or a wall with a pallet. The only way to blind against a wall is with a Flashbang, and they weren't pumping gens to get a Flashbang, so it is impossible in normal circumstances to get a rescue. A gen in 53s is preferable to a gen in 90s, and it is safer to have the final Surv on a different gen in case the Killer interrupts. Having the 'fast gen' and the 'slow gen' is still far more valuable than an extra hook is the vast majority of circumstances.
If you doubt what I'm saying, go into soloq with Empathy and/or Bond, and watch the flashlight Survivor single-handedly throw the game for 10-15 minutes, forcing you and the other genning Surv have to carry them and pick up the slack.
The only way to blind against a wall is with a Flashbang, and they weren't pumping gens to get a Flashbang, so it is impossible in normal circumstances to get a rescue.
this is why i talked about tactically going down in open spaces allows SWF to use flashlights to save survivor easier because there is not as many walls. you want go down near walls so that person who is trying to go for save can "stealth" but the killer has to pick up survivor out in the open. Yes, you are correct that flashbang is far superior to flashlight for saves but this is because flashbang requires the survivor to work on generators compare to flashlight. It is inherent more limited in # of uses unless you bring like 4 flashbang perks or something but that a lot of perk to devote to this gameplay where as flashlight costs 0 perks.
A gen in 53s is preferable to a gen in 90s, and it is safer to have the final Surv on a different gen in case the Killer interrupts
not necessarily. if there 1 or 2 gens remaining and gen are spread out, the killer spends like 20-30 seconds of walking to go across map. Suppose he successful does interrupt gen, what exactly does he accomplish on 60% gen for example? The killer regression is 4x slower. for that gen to regress fully, it takes 240 seconds to regression. 240 second is 4 MINUTES. 4 minutes is eternity. you can finish 2 other gens before that gen regresses to 0. If he interrupts, you just start another gen across the map. if he camps gen, you just get free progression elsewhere. If he doesn't camp gen then you just finish it. The only caveat is that you need to NOT be in 3 gen setup to push gens like this. that is why it is important to do correct gens in early game so your late game is easy. Of course, if you face killer that just camps 3 gens from the start than that is inherently going to be different game.
Having the 'fast gen' and the 'slow gen' is still far more valuable than an extra hook is the vast majority of circumstances.
it depends. flashlight saves save hook-states but when you have 3 hook-states, you can spend hook-states as resource. from hook 1 -> hook 2, you have safest flashlight save because if it works, you delay killer a lot but if it fails then the person goes to 2nd hook. from 2nd hook ->3rd hook, you lose 1 survivor which is very big. you should not suicide to save survivor but if you get flashlight save, then it is pretty big because killer will tunnel the person on hook and every second that is chasing is extra gen-time for your team. The thing is that when you flashlight save a killer, it is harder to do it again because killer is more attentive to try avoid it.
If you doubt what I'm saying, go into soloq with Empathy and/or Bond, and watch the flashlight Survivor single-handedly throw the game for 10-15 minutes, forcing you and the other genning Surv have to carry them and pick up the slack.
Soloq is not going use flashlight correctly because flashlights require coordination. They can use it correctly and if they bond or empathy, they're more likely to use it correctly but it is not guaranteed. It is same how soloq will not use bodyblocking correctly with adrenaline or unbreakable bodyblocking or acquiring healing or end game hook saves which is really simple. right? It is just take a hit, hold-w, unhook and bodyblock to exit gate but even if that simple teamwork action is difficult. with stbfl, it just two people take a hit but even that is too much.
so how well this stuff works is highly dependent on your MMR level and your teammates. Flashlight are not useless. it is how player uses them that matters.
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for killer, killer is suppose to be stronger in 1vs1 so them using chase perks is playing to what suppose to be killer's strength. survivor stacking haste is questionable however there is mechanic called bloodlust that ensures killer is always faster than survivor after x time. the only concern is having haste outside of chase because bloodlust does not build out of chase.
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@FieldAgentReaper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571526#Comment_3571526
That is the thing, you are thinking in terms of "this single chain is not giving me immediate value" the thing I have recognized from playing pinhead is its not always about the value from a single chain, that comes from close-range engagement, sometimes it's about hitting a first chain to slow them down and set you up for another one that will be the reason you get the down. Everyone keeps thinking in that ideology, if pinhead could get max value every time from hitting a chain I firmly believe he would actually be unfair. He isn't death slinger and you may not think that but what you want him to be is death slinger, thats not his role even though I also really love slinger. Sometimes you wont always get good value but thats ok because that makes him fun to play against, if pinhead could just get insane value no matter what if you hit a m2 then the fun factor on survivor side goes down which I also care about as I love playing against pinheads that try to use their m2, good positioning and the pinhead misplacing his gateway will reward the survivor, it makes pinhead more fun that way though. And im not saying it cant be frustrating to have even a good chain break instantly, but at the end of the day thats ok, if we start trying to make him easier to play by changing this mechanic we are potentially damaging his skill factor for the sake of hand holding which I am very much against and making him less fun to play against as a survivor, and we really dont need that. I get it if you disagree with me but as the one who played in that game, yes I missed chains but thats just part of the game thats on me, as the player, for messing up, not because he is weak or as everyone is saying "inconsistent" I mean take a look at the hit on the feng at the end of the video when I hit a really good compensation chain through shack right before the last gen popped, that was rewarding as hell as it allowed me to kill her then go and kill ada.
sure but in feng's case, you down her in a deadzone. this is another thing. If the killer hits a survivor and the survivor runs hold-w because your going to acquire free bloodlust 1 to down her. it is to point that it is unreward to use his skill that your better off just being 5% faster then using it. your suppose use it only when it would change outcome from no hit to a hit but that point almost never happens even when your very close to the survivor. the chains just have no durability and no consistency. any killer would get hit there with 0 powers. Anti-loop power are designed to shorten the chase compare to other killers and pinhead chain power is unsuccessful at shortening chases.
Everyone keeps thinking in that ideology, if pinhead could get max value every time from hitting a chain I firmly believe he would actually be unfair. He isn't death slinger and you may not think that but what you want him to be is death slinger, thats not his role even though I also really love slinger.
I actually compare him to deathslinger but with clown pink bottle-level rewards.
if we start trying to make him easier to play by changing this mechanic we are potentially damaging his skill factor for the sake of hand holding which I am very much against and making him less fun to play against as a survivor, and we really dont need that. I get it if you disagree with me but as the one who played in that game, yes I missed chains but thats just part of the game thats on me
No i agree with your performance that missing chains is inevitable especially against a quality team. I would likely miss just as many chains as you. it is hard power to use at its peak performance. there is a lot of mindgame potencial and counter-play to avoiding his ability as survivor. My point is that you should be getting rewards in from your chain hits when you are successful at using his ability. The skill-factor of survivor is suppose to be avoiding the skill-shot. The breaking of chains through environment/pinhead & struggling mechanic is excessive counter-play. Playing poorly in the chase should be punishing. Currently, it is not the case.
His chains were even worse when DH for distance/Iframes was possible pre 6.1 because I would even dead hard his skill-shot in many cases. I respectfully disagree that making his power rewarding would make him unfun to face as survivor. the fact that his power is that dysfunctional sometimes makes me lazy to dodge his ability because i know that the hit does not matter because I just break free and get to the pallet anyway.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571804#Comment_3571804
My understanding of his reasoning is you have 1 person never on a gen for 90% of the game when they could be, attempting the flashlight save, and only getting the save 1 in 10 times at best. The loss of gen time coupled with the low success rate makes it so they set their team up for failure, even on the matches where they get the lucky save.
right so that why you use background player or SB to reduce risk factor of it. one thing to note is that because survivor has such overwhelming advantage in early game, as long you finish the gens closest to center/break 3 gens on the specific map, the large gen spread means that the killer cannot patrol gen effectively. as a result, when roughly 1-2 gens remain, you don't really need 3 people on generators anymore. you just need killer to not get hooks. yes it becomes slower to finish gens but if killer is not getting any hooks, your progressing generators while killer is accomplishing nothing. Maybe they're breaking few pallets but as long killer does not break the entire map than it really does not matter.
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@ARTRA said:
We all know not everyone can be blight, but come on.
If you want to leave Low-Power Mode as a brown meme addon, ok.
Can SM get some better numbers on other addons?
Most of them are weak effect that only works on clawtrapped survivors.
Like no sounds and smaller skillcheks (Adi Valente Issue 1 ,Shotgun Speakers). If someone its clawtrapped, 95% of the times was during chase so those addons dont work. And in the other 5% if you see in your iphone a broken, injured survivor you should go for it.
Loose Screw , you need to scan someone 4 times before it uses a exaustion perk, if sprint burst ot lithe earlier, this addon does nothing.
High-Current Upgrade only 1 second? Could at least be 2 or 3?
Advanced Movement Prediction you see the aura of the survivor that you can literally see in your phone for 45 seconds, and this is purple :S
Stereo Remote Mic by the time you see a drone its broken its usually better remove it and put another one.
Just to name a few.
At least some addons could have a little better numbers or also works when scanned, like Advanced Movement Prediction or Loose Screw when scanned OR clawtrapped, effect triggers.
i just wish her expired battery was not -50% and her supersonic was like +40%. high current upgrade being +1 second is laughably bad. it should be +5 seconds.
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@UndeddJester said:
Actually think Xeno is pretty fun for both sides.
For Survivors: -
- Intense sprints and fakes to bait out the tail for jukes, that gives a great high when you succeed.
- Takes forethought and strategic thinking to decide where to place turrets.
- Satisfying when you manage to bait the Xeno into a turret and knock it out out of crawler mode.
For Xeno: -
- Requires good knowledge of loops and survivor prediction to line up the tail due to immediately stopping when hitting any terrain.
- Tunnel is actually fun to race around in, and detection abilities keep you in the hunt and rarely totally lost.
- Turrets feel to you how they would for the Xeno, and surprising annoyance that slows you down, with a great high when you successfully flick and break it while still in power.
So I personally have to disagree with your assessment the Xeno is not fun for both sides. I'd say Xeno is pretty good, especially now it's bugs have been ironed out.
xeno most balanced killer. i still dislike turrets though. drawbacks to killer power are anti-fun and can cost the killer the game.
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no way, managing lock-on stacks is technically her only buff from previous iteration to new iteration because she needs have 2 people with claw traps to make up old geographic read out, so you need chase 1 person, put 3 lock on stacks on them and find another person and chase them hoping that survivor goes into a drone so 2 claw traps are active during the chase.
I still wish expired battery, high current upgrade and supercharger add-on get buffed numerically but she's ok in current form. playable.
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@Yatol said:
I dunno why Doctor keeps getting into the conversation when UW is brought
when doctor uses static blast you get a massive warning, unless you are next to the killer you wont hear him opening a locker.
it is because his static blast has worse tracking than this perk. the thing about doc's tracking is suppose to come from madness effects. It is just that doctor's madness is currently very weak because static blast spreads madness very poorly and when you recover from madness 3, you go to madness 1 which has no status effects.
Restraint gives you illusion doctors to track position but these doctor will not show up if player is madness 1 and applying madness manually is pretty slow because he has no traversal map mobility.
Calm add-on gives illusion terror radius. this is very bad because it only works in chase in tier 2 for 6 second after chase ends and when it works constantly, it is in tier 3 in which you snap out. It is suppose make indirectly stealth killer where survivor doesn't know where your coming from but it fails terrible at that job.
Order Illusionary pallet are ok because they happen in the chase. Discipline gives red stain which is chase effect so that works
if he had global tr or bigger tr to spread madness better then calm/restraint effects would be active more through out trial though calm add-on status effect needs buff or something. maybe it makes skill-check harder or something the more time you snap out.
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@jesterkind said:
I think Grim Embrace is the only one of these that'd serve any real purpose basekit, and even then you'd achieve that by just buffing the perk such that players want to run it too.
Forced Penance is just needlessly punishing to survivors who are playing well, that's a complete non-starter, and Shattered Hope probably shouldn't even exist, let alone be basekit. If boons broke when snuffed, there'd be no point to them anymore, it'd completely undo how the mechanic is actually designed.
For things that should be basekit, I personally think none, but there are a few that wouldn't be tremendously unhealthy- they'd just be bandaid fixes papering over the actual cause. Take Corrupt Intervention, to address the killer's early game- this would be a bandaid, survivor spawns and map sizes are the core of the issue, but it would at least kinda-sorta work for most killers to stem the bleeding, so to speak.
One thing that would be neat is making BBQ's old BP stacks basekit, to encourage killers to go for different unique hooks.
i would choose pain res on every hook for sure.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571845#Comment_3571845
That would somewhat require you to know where people are already to approach them in that way, but then again yamaoka has shack and jungle gyms in all corners where you could effectively cut them off, so they don't need to run to a strong part of the map, they are already there...
well you already know where they are. they're on gens. i am saying depending on how you approach gens can allow you to cut people off.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571794#Comment_3571794
I mean sure, but that would mean the survivor does not know you are approaching or from where and depending on the map and the position of the survivor that got hooked you can have somewhat of an idea from where the killer is approaching and pre run. If you know the perk is in the game you just need to pre run early to a safer structure, it is really not that hard...
it depends map. for example Yamoka maps. the sanctum of wraith has like 2 boxes and like one gen spawns on the top of the staircase. the other gens spawn in the corners of the map. you cannot pre-run if you strategically cut people people off. it is like difference between opening a locker and going from left to right vs opening locker in the center and pathing down.
I went to wiki to get map shape. this is what what I mean. Like i said, it depends from map to map.
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Mangled is one only way for Nurse to get instant downs because exposed perk got nerfed on her. Heavy painting is strong for weaker nurses because if you a bit off blinks, extra lunge helps you be less precise and it is her best add-on for anti-loop for experienced nurses.
The only add-on that give anti-loop/upgrade her power is 2 iri add-on's but they change nurse's gameplay in negative ways for people to run them. 3 blink is as good heavy panting but why bother with higher cooldown. 1 blink is also strong but you play more like m1 killer and blink whenever people throw pallets/windows. I find 1 blink hilarious because dev once said that deathslinger canceling ADS to m1 you at the windows was bad gameplay yet.... why is that in the game? /shrug.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571775#Comment_3571775
Background Player shuts down all these "look away" angles and you can't know where someone is hidding unless you can see them or hear them coming after you down someone.
so good survivors always used 99% SB to use flashlights. that is why i don't understand scott's opinion for example that says flashlight is worst item in the game.
Being able to give your teammate a second life is crazy strong. It is just that doing 99% SB flashlight took a lot of skill to use it. With background player, you don't need to run SB anymore so just use it as filler perk to flashlights. Saying flashlight take no skill is undermining action. most survivor actions don't take skill once you learned how to utilize the perk/item in question. My suspicious towards popular scott opinion that Flashlight = useless item is that survivors were trying use them without using 99% SB so they see it as an easy counter to look away but no. flashlight are really good when the player is knows how to use them with haste.
Another skill-cap of flashlights is how you go down as survivor. one of issues for why soloq flashlight is hard is because survivor in soloq cannot see aura of teammates so the downs can happen at bad places where survivor is facing an easy wall for killer to look at. if you go down in strategic places like out in the open, then flashlight become exponential easier. there is also element of stealth. if you make killer believe no one is there, they might pick up at wrong angle and that also makes flashlight easier.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571780#Comment_3571780
But you see them so far away depending on killer... So let's say you hook someone and then open the locker and look for them and if they don't scream instantly they will scream at the maximum distance of your heartbeat, so 24-40 m away from you... Those survivors have so much time to find a hiding spot or start pre running now... I don't see much wrong with the concept...
one of few skill-caps to killer to use this perk is to use it like whisper where you want to "predict" where survivor is arbitrary as you walk with the perk. the idea is that you can scan corners around the map quickly but if you see a scream, you can approach the survivor from the an angle where you can cut survivor off so they cannot pre-run. this is one of few skill-caps to using the perk.
strangely enough having low tr like huntress ends up being benefit in some sense because you can start the chaser closer but scanning is worse.
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@brokedownpalace said:
It's such a poorly designed perk it blows my mind. I've seen people say that even if you use Calm Spirit the bubble still pops up even though the survivor doesn't scream. Never tested it myself though, haven't played Xenomorph yet.
yes and survivor have an easy mode perk. Window of opportunity. Ultimate weapon is like window of opportunity. easy mode looping vs easy mode tracking. I don't know if they did that on purpose but it is hilarious.
@rvzrvzrvz said:
I don't understand why it activates for 30 seconds with a cooldown of 30 seconds ?? it's more than enough to cross entire map multiple times especially for blight, duration should be 15 seconds or less
also blindness is such an useless solo q stomper effect, someone on hook should stay visible, I hate that it's useless against people on voice com and punish solos
people can only scream once so 30 second activation and 30 second cooldown is 1 minute cooldown. it is same as doc blast. lowering activation time end up being a buff because you start cooldown faster.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Don't belive me? Okay so old DS, then old reworked DS. DH. For years btw. CoH too many months as well. Now MFT seems to go just wait it out lol maybe next year road as well.
Meanwhile... Eruption? Solved within 2-3 big patches, same as other gen kicking perks, buffed Thana nuked next patch, etc.
Why? Why Killer perks can be solved within 3 months and Survivors perks take 8+ months to solve or even year(s).
the dev balance perks off two main things. Stats and player feedback. In term of player feedback, survivor have 4x as much feeedback as killer do, so whenever a killer perk strong, it is 4x as loud. that is one reason to why killer perk get demolished quickly while survivor perks stay the same. there is just not as much killer feedback on survivor perks because it is only 1 player.
Now look a stats. Using stats to try figure out strength of a survivor perk is hard using stats to try figure strength of survivor perk is hard because if someone has strong survivor perk but you have weak survivor perks, you benefit from your teammates perks to escape. for example, I could be running worthless survivor perks in the game like red herring, this is not happening, teamwork: collective stealth and deception and still escaping because my teammate plays well and loops killer for entire match while I just sit on gens. The perk could be doing nothing but I could still be escaping especially because a lot of survivor's strength in their base-kit gameplay. The player who has good build can still die so it does not reflect in escape rate of the player.
With killer perks and add-on, there is no teamwork element. As a result, the 1-2-3-4k is precise accurate measurement of killer's success so if killer has 20% 4 man escapes, 14% 3 man escapes, 11% 2 kill-rate, 28% 3k, 27% 4k -rate. by adding 3k and 4k's, they can easily figure if a killer perk over performs on any killer if it reaches above a targeted average. Survivor data tells nothing, killer data is generally accurate due to 4vs1 nature of the game.
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@YayC said:
I know what some people are going to say, "but you could be permanently undetectable with it".
Imma let you guys in on alittle secret, there's another yellow addon that increases your undetectable time by 20% giving you .4s downtime between undetectable which is so short the terror radius barely has time to even begin to make a sound meaning you can still stealth merchant everywhere. It's actually the addon I used the first couple of days to stay permanently undetectable.
What this change has done is deleted one of her few viable addons while simultaneously nerfing other playstyles. For example, I ran this with geographical readout (20% action speed increase upon deploying a drone for 8s) and either brutal or bamboozle to have pallet shredding powers and window vaulting speed similar to the super fun Xeno window vault build. The extra 2 seconds geographical isn't active between the drone placement cooldowns plus needing to place a drone preventing me vaulting to begin with plus having to recall drones to place a new one if I wanted the fast vault/pallet destroy in a small area made this playstyle much more awkward than xeno but still doable and still super fun with the pre-rework addon. Without the cooldown reduction addon, this playstyle is so awkward that it's basically dead.
It also kills the time you can setup your drones if you want to play territorial which ALOT of Merchants do nowadays.
I don't care if you lower the undetectable when you equip the old addon or buff geographical to 10s so we don't need that addon to do other playstyles with it effectively, but I would like if you didn't just randomly nuke addons in "hotfix" patches, especially addons that arguably are the most used and offer the most flexibility for creating a variety of playstyles. We want more flexibility and playstyles with killers and their addons, not less or you end up like Pyramid Head where you run the same 2 addons every match because all the others blow chunks.
It also kills the time you can setup your drones if you want to play territorial which ALOT of Merchants do nowadays.
that is exactly what they're nerfing but how is m1 killer suppose to play maps like haddonfield with broken window infinity loops vs m1 killers if not to 3 gen? this applies other maps with excessive safe pallets. it is funny that they brag back that vaulting bug for windows but where is vaulting bug for pallets? who knows, maybe pallet somehow become balanced with slower vaulting.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
So after playing with the low-power mode for a bit, i must admit i kind of like it. It really helps especially on indoor maps as might tight-corriders might lead to both sensors facing a wall while you herd survivors into them, the problem is that we need an add-on and lose a bit of control over the drone for it.
I think replacing the current rotation switch with a rotation stop would make her near perfect, it shouldn't be to hard to switch Low-Power mode to the current rotation switch that is currently basekit and make the a rotation-stop toggle basekit.
new skull merchant is all about using rotate function to get efficient haste and lock-on build up since pulling out scanner no longer slows her movement speed. so low power mode is like most useless add-on ever. it takes one skill-cap of playing well away from her. the cooldown was superior....they probably changed because of 3 gens but as i said, 3 gen is not skull merchant fault. it is the map design allowing camping gens to be effective. it is only way that killer balance out imbalance looping maps.
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the skull merchant add-on change is bad. the add-on made her more fluid to play with cooldown. new add-on is terrible and meme add-on that might as well give 200% bp. She will still be at chasing without add-on. it is just add-on made her less clunky to play.
@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570939#Comment_3570939
Ghostface's clothes ruffle a little bit and you can hear that at short distance. Pig, as you mentioned, breathes loud enough for close-by survivors to hear her. And Wraith has a snarling sound you can hear once he gets close to you, and has to uncloak. Skull Merchant, as far as I'm aware, doesn't really have anything like that now since they reduced the volume of her footsteps.
As for why perma-Undetectable with Low Power Mode was a problem: The difference compared to other stealth killers was that Merchant could be permanently stealthy with LPM while still being able to both attack survivors and move at normal movement speed, in addition to having a strong chase power. Wraith has to uncloak to be able to attack, which slows him down and is something that survivors can both see and hear (and the addon that silences the bell is Iridescent which justifies it being that powerful), Pig moves slower while crouched, and Ghostface can have his power taken away by survivors, putting it on a cooldown.
The only real downside Skull Merchant had for doing this strategy with LPM to get permanent stealth was sometimes being forced to place drones in awkward locations in order to keep her stealth active, which wasn't a big deal since recalling drones no longer has a cooldown and using the radar doesn't slow you down anymore. No other killer, including stealth killers, can get permanent stealth with all the upsides that Skull Merchant could get with LPM. She still has good, on-demand stealth even after today's update, she just can't get it non-stop anymore, and that's fine because she never should've been able to do that to begin with.
you still get opening hits with GF if you hit out of cloak most of the time. same is true for wraith. as long there is an object to hide as you uncloak, you normally get hit. no reason for them to change LPM to a joke add-on.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570951#Comment_3570951
I'm usually the last one to pull content creators especially when they dont do it themselves here but i think this one does well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOlzIn7HEQ
Keep in mind while this wasn't a 100% comp setting this team was still better than easily 90% of SWFs out there. Pinhead is certainly a very tricky Killer to master because not only are his chains very tricky but you also need a lot of game sense, now more than ever since Hoarder has been nerfed, but it wasn't really ever completely necessary.
This match also shows the point i have been trying to make when i said Pinhead is a relatively healthy Killer because he almost never benefits from camping/tunneling compared to other Killers, its almost always better to go for the Box and switch targets, even in a potentially competitive setting where the meta for a long time has been tunneling pretty much.
He is not a mere noob/pub stomper, while he is surely stronger against them that applies to literally every Killer because bad uncoordinated survivors are easier to go against with every Killer.
I'm just glad that the Pinhead glitches have been fixed so i can finally play him again, i did not play him for far to long.
that game exactly shows my point about how bad pinhead's 1vs1 is. first you need have incredible aim accuracy to use chains, like I am not joking but it is harder to use his chains accurately vs good survivors than it is to land like blight rushes and nurse blinks. you can see how many times he misses chains in that match. disregarding mechanical difficult of using this ability, he is not getting rewarded for his chains. Just to give an example, 21:12 he is near Lisa at around 10 meters away, He is casting his chains, he lands chains but gets no hit. To be fair, he does not move around the pallet after hitting Lisa but even if he did, he might not make it just because chains are likely to break before pinhead makes any distance.
Another example is 22:13 where he lands a chain around crane loop but survivor still gets to the pallet. He still get hits m1 hits on nancy who is body blocking but actual chase with power results in no value. You see how pinhead's anti-loop is ineffective? He is landing precise skill-shot but it is not mattering in outcome of the 1vs1.
The survivor have some of worst loop rng. they have 4 four walls, a long-wall pallet and that new double window loop. the reason why pinhead is doing so well is because survivor's do not have typical stronger loop setups in the map. All hits he is getting is not because of 1vs1 chain anti-loop. it is all m1 gameplay. Pinhead chains are suppose to be anti-loop but pinhead player knows from experience how ineffective the anti-loop is which is why he is breaking pallets. there is no point in trying to use his chains around loops.
Your game showcases everything I talked about with pinhead in regards to 1vs1. as you correctly point out, hoarder no longer works with the box so that outcome is likely to be way worse as less chain-hunt are likely to activate.
@ironligma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570417#Comment_3570417
I hope you understand how strong he would be if the chains couldn't break on the environment. Making it take longer to break is gonna be the best outcome
Considering the 1vs1 power barely works currently, I don't even know what power-level the chains are considering current version of them is terrible. At best, his power is like pink bottle clown, so i am pretty sure his power working correctly will not suddenly make his 1vs1 strong given that it has big counter-play in the player missing his chains as shown in the video.
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i don't think issue is not doing number changes. it is what to change number to and what perks should be changed. for example, you have list perk to change then suggest what change should be listed to. Like Stridor is 25/50/50 with 0/0/25% louder breathing. Maybe the perk should be changed to 25/50/75 with 15/30/45%. you would have make a post saying you want Stridor changed to these values for example.
@jesterkind said:
Is there much reason to do them more frequently?
People react pretty negatively to them when they do happen, just look at the changes to Deathslinger's addons in the most recent patch. I don't see any reason BHVR should change things more frequently than their typical schedule, personally; either they're things that are important to fix and will therefore take time and effort to code + test, or they're minor extra things thrown in alongside bigger changes, in which case it kinda doesn't matter.
Also, it'd be extremely sloppy and not very fun to experience for them to rapidly change the same thing back and forth between single patches. That's not a positive outcome, it's a negative one.
I disagree. new changes keep the game fresh. It can always be reverted if it is too much or what not.
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I wish they bring back the healing penalty to -5%/10/15/20%. when you get to 4 stacks, you get -20% generator penalty. At least then, it could be decent anti-heal perk with sloppy that sometimes gives gen defence. Ideally it would be nice if it was 5% repairs and healing but people whined about repair penalties when they changed gens to 90 seconds, so now there is 0 good -repair bonus perks as gen defence for killer.
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@FieldAgentReaper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570692#Comment_3570692
there is though, I have nearly 0 issues with this minus a handful of loops example being the warden's office in Lerrys, and a few other locations on the map. The reward is there but most people expect simply hitting the chain to be a free hit, its not you have to think about your own movement and your own place of the chain. I've dedicated many many hours to mastering this and I can tell you that this isn't an issue and part of the high skill level with cenobite. If you really are having these issues you have not quite gotten to that point of true understanding of his power. This isn't me trying to be condescending either I have such a large understanding of this killer and when people say things such as what you have said it really just tells me you haven't learned his full potential yet. And I have the experience and understanding to back this up.
I have played other killers that have similar nature of getting bursts of speed. I understand how to judge distances very well. This ability is pretty hard to land vs good player and the reward just does not meet the difficulty. the fact you need deal with RNG for whether your ability works or not is just silly. Some survivor that I have played against break chains almost as fast as me chaining them. The people that understand to just Hold m1 when they get hit by chains and stand in positions where they rubberband objects to break chains quickly is not fun. Your barely getting any distance with this ability in straight lines because when you channel gateway, you slow down to nurse's speed so you naturally lose distance so when you pair that with RNG of this ability. Your almost expected to land every chain for the ability to do anything but survivor needs very little effort to produce long chases against him. current pinhead needs 1vs1's buffs. He has high kill-rate because of survivor's mismanaging the box and new player that don't understand how the box works.
Pinhead now is like balanced around new players. it is sad because his gameplay is fun but ultimately unrewarding.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570688#Comment_3570688
That just means your definition of viable is too strict, though. Personally, I'd argue viable perks are "perks which will consistently raise your chance of winning, if used right". I'll grant that "using right" can often imply them being pretty niche in specific builds or on specific killers, but they're still viable in that context. Furtive Chase and Gearhead are easily contenders for that description; FC might require a little investment (The perk Nemesis is a great pairing with it, for example), but Gearhead just works and works well.
Gen speed as it is right now is dictated more by your own play than by your perks, in a lot of cases. As long as your macro play is good (keeping track of where people are, occupying many survivors at once, chasing into deadzones, etc), gens don't really fly unless the survivors brought crazy stacked toolboxes and such, which in my experience is relatively uncommon.
you need hook obsession to trigger effect and it costs two perks slots to use perk effectively. Now Nemesis and Furtive would be fair perk cost if it was reduced your TR permanent but it is not. it is just temporary undetectable trigger. After that you have consider how often your hook obsession. In some games, it might be 0 but let say you commit two perk slots. On average, your tunneling little bit with killer, your likely not going be doing 12 hooks. let just say your doing 5-9 hook. if half your hook are obsession hooks, you get to trigger this 4 times without super going out of your way to change the way you play.
two perk that give undetectable with much less conditions are Tinkerer and Trail of Torment. Tinkerer used to be decent 7/10 perk before it got weakened. Now it is like 5/10 perk. something average. Tinkerer triggers on generators and you get it 5 times automatically. Trail of Torment is a perk where when you kick a gen, you become undetectable as long generator regresses. it has 60 second cooldown. these perk are a lot easier to trigger to gain undetectable and because each of these perk are slot efficient. you will be undetectable for more often.
I am not saying furtive is useless or anything but it is like 3/10 perk for what was a 0/10 perk for stealth. While these perk are fun to use, the generator are too fast for killer to consider running fun perks over just running classic gen defence perks.
==
In term of raw finding survivors, Ultimate weapon, BBQ and Nowhere to hide are like 9-10/10 perks when it comes to activating and showing where survivors are. This is ok because these are general perks. Gearhead is more specialized type of detection perk. It is the type of perk where you trigger it and you expect to get information for when survivor are on generator so you can detach chases and apply "gen pressure". The issue with this functionality of the perk 3 three-fold
1) there is no notification when this perk triggers. This makes perk hard to use because you need have hawk eyes to use it. It is hard to concentrate of chasing survivor and looking at general direction of gens to trigger the perk. Red aura with Red gens is hard.
2) it relies on survivors doing normal skill-check. skill-check are random and the duration of the perk is only 30 seconds. it is unreliable.
3) lastly, Gearhead gives tends to give information at "late-time". when you trigger other perks like BBQ, Nowhere to hide and Ultimate weapon, Their effects are immediate. With Gearhead, it is waiting game.
This perk is really useful for what it is trying accomplished for killer but it needs more QOL changes to make it easier to use, to give information immediately when it triggers so killer can act on it and to be less dependent on survivor.
What I would like for the perk to be more consistent is noise notification when it triggers and when it does trigger, it randomly shows a single survivor's aura that is on generator IF there is anyone on a generator. The second change would means that you get information immediately and you rely a little less on rng skill-checks for the perk to trigger.
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@FieldAgentReaper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570417#Comment_3570417
he absolutely does not, his m2 is very powerful people just send the m2 head-on in chase and expect that to be enough its not you have to think about when and where you are launching the chain and the angle, something Ive come to master on pinhead. Its not something an average player is going to be good at doing and should not be buffed just because the average player cant pull it off.
it is not about pulling it off. it is about reward. there is not enough reward for his ability when you succeed. also a skilled survivor can dodge chains/mindgame chains. that is what I do. I visualized his gateway and try to wiggle/predict where he will fire the chain. most survivors just run forward and make no effort to dodge his chains. so you can have games with like 90% chain accuracy but no hits because of anti-loop is so bad.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570661#Comment_3570661
To start, gen delay perks are not essential, the game's just easier with them. That's fine, of course, but they aren't the same thing.
But what I'm more interested in talking about is that the goalposts have shifted here, and I don't think it was done on purpose, so it's worth calling attention to. We've shifted from talking about viable perks, to talking about the best perks- see how we're talking about Furtive Chase and Gearhead, both agreed on by the two of us as usable C-tier decent perks. That means those perks are viable, which promotes my point that there's a lot more variety available to killer players regardless of whether they're choosing to act on that.
The real reason that you're going to see gen defence over-represented in a lot of matches is because it is simply easier to play the game with them. It's not required, you can get very potent slowdown on gens from any perks if you're playing well but especially chase and info perks, but doing that is noticeably harder so people generally don't bother. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it is the reason, not that those perks are required and not that all the other perks aren't viable.
That means those perks are viable
I would not consider C-tier perk as viable. I would consider C-tier perks as perk that trigger useful effect but are not good. What I would consider a viable perk is a perk that is B-tier or higher.
The real reason that you're going to see gen defence over-represented in a lot of matches is because it is simply easier to play the game with them. It's not required, you can get very potent slowdown on gens from any perks if you're playing well but especially chase and info perks, but doing that is noticeably harder so people generally don't bother.
I disagree. gens with gen defence still fly too fast. the only aspect that improved is early game for killer. it is a lot better now compare to before but mid-game is still lacking for killer.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570411#Comment_3570411
That's only true if you assume both that game-delay perks are 100% essential, and that there aren't very many viable game-delay perks.
Since neither of those things are true, there are a lot of viable perks on the killer side. Just recently we had Furtive Chase buffed to genuinely be usable, and before that I can recall Gearhead becoming a genuinely solid perk, among others. There aren't that many perk buffs coming for either side, but killers are getting some pretty great ones, at least recently.
I'm not making a claim as to what most killer players are actually running, to be clear. I'm talking about what can be run, in terms of what's viable.
i would consider gen-delay perks as essential, that is the problem. your not suppose to rely on perks. they're suppose to be optional choices where you can run gen defence but you don't need it to be competitive. that is something that they said in 6.1.0 that killer should not be required to run gen defence.
Guess what majority of killer are running? Gen defence.
Just recently we had Furtive Chase buffed to genuinely be usable, and before that I can recall Gearhead becoming a genuinely solid perk, among others.
Furtive chase is still not very good. Sure it went from F-tier perk to like usable c-tier perk but it is obsession perk that gives situational undetectable and situational speed. if they improved old design of the perk then it would be worthy of obsession status. Gearhead is suppose to be like discordance where you get dynamic information to gain information to bounce from one survivor to the next through hit & run. it went from perk that was F-tier to C-tier. it is usable but it is not that good.
Ultimate weapon and Nowhere to hide are solid recent perks. killers still have ways to go when it comes to gaining good stealth perks, instant down perks and strong chase perks. I guess for chase, there is coup the grace which is ok but then there is.... rapid brutality. I am still playing around with rapid but.... I just don't see much value out of it. the healthy survivor just seem to always make it to a loop which makes question what is the point of the perk? The speed boost alone seems to get them to any loop on the map. Until they provide more solid different options for killer, it is unlikely your going to be seeing any killer perk variety beyond gen defence. that is why i said that base-kit gen defence might be needed for killers to even attempt to change their builds along side buffs to different perks.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570387#Comment_3570387
I don't think I was clear about a fake dying state. Games have frequently had Stand/Crouch/Prone. I just want Prone to be a base movement option. I used the term 'fake dying state' to essentially say they could re-use the idea of being on the ground like the dying state, but it would instead be a prone stance.
The 2 Survivor stealth circumstance I largely view as a non-issue. It almost only punishes players who tunnel early and often, and only in terms of inconvenience. It also punishes players who bring only slowdown perks, and neglect intel or lethality. Lethality would keep them injured, and audible, and intel would make them hiding not matter, as the Killer player can find them. Again, only punishing people for mistakes, or undesired gameplay. Once those players give up the crutch of winning through attrition with 4 slowdown, they will actually learn to play the game, learn how to find people, and learn how to down people. It serves their best interest to keep the status quo, as they will either stagnate in their incompetence or learn to thrive. Failing in the present encourages learning how to succeed for the future. That's how I improved at the game, recognizing a mistake, whether it be a macro mistake (I need to protect/pop that gen next match) or a micro mistake (I need to watch/hide the red stain at loops of this length).
As far as making stealth more viable, I think countering Killer information is the only way. Sadly that leaves us with the current Distortion against auras, and Calm Spirit against crows/screams. Neither of those can really be countered by a base number tweak. That's why I'd want a prone state to function as a silencer and maybe aura/scream preventor, at the cost of taking 5-10s (healthy/injured) to stand (hard channel, no 99'ing, like totems), and the Killer being able to hard pick up, bypassing the health states remaining.
It also punishes players who bring only slowdown perks, and neglect intel or lethality. Lethality would keep them injured, and audible, and intel would make them hiding not matter, as the Killer player can find them. Again, only punishing people for mistakes, or undesired gameplay.
why exactly is killer suppose to be punished for running their choice of build? perks are suppose to provide optional bonuses, not be mandatory effects that if you don't bring them, you risk having 20+ minutes of hide & seek.
The 2 Survivor stealth circumstance I largely view as a non-issue.
I view as somewhat of major problem, Both on the killer side and playing survivor side. When there are two survivors left, the killer is in winning position and killer objective is to close out the game so that the player can move on to next game. between 3k's and 4k's, I would view killer winning by 3k and 4k as exact same win. Having drawn out end game because killer is slugging for 4k's or survivor is hiding excessively i.e both player cannot be found is not fun for the killer. these are just bad game mechanics and killer should not have to run perk tax to fix bad game mechanics.
As far as making stealth more viable, I think countering Killer information is the only way.
calm spirit and distortion are counter perks to counter killer perks. they're not stealth itself. I was more refering to improving stealth itself a base-kit. nothing to do with perk themselves.
Games have frequently had Stand/Crouch/Prone
Yes, dbd has Standing, Crouching and Dying state. Tenacity is a perk to make less noise on the floor. I believe plot twist does something similar. I don't agree. it should not be base option. it has too many random benefits to be base option. it is should be perk and it is a perk.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570243#Comment_3570243
Its not about nerfing. I'd argue that blindness as a status effect is also unhealthy, so is something like knockout. Does that mean they are OP? No, it just means that blindness is extremely powerful against solo and useless against SWF, and knockout promotes a ######### unfun playstyle. 2 things can be true at the same time, something can be underpowered, and also unhealthy for the game because it promotes things that are unfun.
breakdown is just Boil Over 2.0. hook breaking -> survivor can go in the corner of the map -> killer cannot hook the survivor -> you force killer to slug. In some sense, Breakdown can be stronger anti-tunneling tool than old Decisive Strike because DS only lasted 60 seconds. Breakdown perk lasts... 3 minutes.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570397#Comment_3570397
Never change in all your glorious and horny ways.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570400#Comment_3570400
Thats more theory than practice, in my experience if i Solo Q there is always that one W gamer that drops immediatly and moves on instead of looping, in this case many Killers don't bother breaking them, especially if they don't know yet. You can actually save some really good loops in many games.
Also i value AMN over Windows simply because i can track chases and used up pallets across the entire map, rather than 32m which is very valuable information. Knowing which area of the map to avoid later because of dead zones and seeing if survivors lure the Killers to me earlier.
i think survivors value proximity information more so then global information because proximity information eventually becomes global information.
AMY vs WoO is kinda like Bond vs Empathy. Yes you can equip Empathy and see your teammates around the map that are injured but that is kind of pointless because your cannot act on that information to do anything with it. the drawback of the perk only working when injured is not enough of upside to have further range. It is same thing with people that use WoO. the upside of being able to pick up pallet is not worth it over the loss of routing for player that use WoO.
I don't really use WoO that much unless new map is release in dbd. I only use WoO for short while to understand new map pallet logic.
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@Sunbreaker7 said:
Even after having been around for so long now, I feel absolutely frustrated playing Pinhead despite how cool of a killer character he is in Dead by Daylight. My problem with him is his chains that break almost instantly after having caught someone in them. It takes skill to land these hooks, yet the survivors can break from them so easily, especially if in a corner. Why is that?
Am I playing him wrong, I feel like many times it's a better tactic to ignore Pinhead's power and just chase the normal way unless there's a small pallet loop.
I think he needs a serious rework or buff.
his chains need buff. he is weak in 1vs1 but has strong 4vs1 passive. your not playing him wrong. he is not very good at 1vs1 and he is needed buff in 1vs1. His chains should not break on environment and he should not break his own chains. he could also maybe use 0.25 buff to durability on his chains.
he is not weakest killer due to his passive game-delay but he is almost pure m1 vs top player until they buffed his anti-loop.
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@jesterkind said:
For the record, BHVR have literally never said they don't want there to be a meta, and have said explicitly that they're well aware a meta is going to form because it's the nature of online gaming. I'm not even sure where you got that from, honestly.
But, to answer the question, I wouldn't say either way when the worst perk variety was, but I do think it's better now than it used to be. I do personally see more variety, especially from survivors, but even disregarding that, there's more viable perks now compared to before, so the situation's improved from that front too.
As annoying as some specific perks/combos are right now, I'd also take this meta over the meta pre-6.1.0 as well. It's less aggravating, at least to me- even if for no other reason than that DH for distance is dead and gone, lol.
more viable perks? On killer end? there is barely any buffs to killer perks. killer's meta are still stuck in using game-delay perks. pain res/jolt/sloppy is what you see on most m1 killers. for killers that do not have good synergy with jolt+sloppy, you see nerfed pop goes weasel+corrupt.
variety for survivor has improved but not really for killer.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570391#Comment_3570391
It was more or less a bait post with some nuggets of truth in it, thought it was clear how i worded it, but yes i'm still asking myself why people don't use AMN much more often. Its really good and provides much of the same benefits as Windows of Opportunity.
Also the fact that tiles are generated randomly don't matter that much because while tiles are generated by RNG, the position of the windows within are actually not, and most tiles with windows are big enough to be identified from a distance.
I also mentioned that you can avoid used up pallets with AMN too, but i don't think people actually even read on this forum anymore.
it is likely because player see little reason to change WoO for AMN. Picking up pallet is pointless because if the killer is not breaking the pallet, it is because they can mindgame the pallet. Every pallet that is safe will be broken by the killer so you not be able to to use AMN.
You will only be able to pick up unsafe pallets but the value of dropping an unsafe pallet is at best 2 second stun. It is just no good killer ever get stunned by pallets because the killer has too much counter-play in avoiding stuns which I will avoid going into detail about that.
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@Crowman said:
You're looking at WoO as if it's a perk only useful if you don't know maps. But it does show you where unbroken pallets are and gives you more warning of what is nearby so you can better path in chase.
Pallets you generally get to reset with AMN are the ones the killer chose not to break meaning that pallet isn't one the killer is worried about.
If you prefer AMN, use it. No need to act superior, because you are using a perk that is more niche than the one players are using by significantly more.
i think his point is more that you can use AMN as form of WoO to figure what pallets disappear to avoid dead-zones. People use WoO for both pallet spawns and avoiding dead-zones. you cannot really disguise between the two users of WoO. one is new player friendly and other is a more veteran player form of use.
It is just that I don't think people value the picking up pallets at all of AMN to use it over WoO. as a result, you might as well just use WoO.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569771#Comment_3569771
"Free wins on survivor" sounds like a major game problem that needs to be solved. In solo q, excessively hiding survivors messes up the team's overall chances of survival. It's unhealthy for solo q, it's not fun for killers.
It depends in how much player stealth's. If it is like new player that just doesn't know how to loop and is just afraid of chase/TR, then yeah that kind of stuff that happens at lower-level of play for survivor will hurt team's chances to escape. I am not talking about new player stealth. I am talking stealth in the form of a killer patrolling generators, seeing a generator being worked on and nobody being there so killer tries to look around and finds nobody. It is the type of stealth where you are wasting the killer's time without using any resources.
it's not fun for killers.
I understand that it may not be fun for you to play against stealth as killer but that is what tracking perks are for. Just don't be surprised if the tracking perk is countered by survivor's perks.
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569788#Comment_3569788
I would avoid touching walking speed, as some people have found ways to break chase by walking after a vault. Crouch speed and maybe even a fake dying state to lie down perhaps though, maybe at the cost of AFK crows while laying down at double the normal rate.
I do not really see survivor walking in chase when I am chasing with killer. I am not saying you cannot walk in chase as survivor because you definitely can in some situations but I think walking in chase and the killer losing you is more killer inexperience. The fake dying state to go into dying state is already new perk. That new perk is called Plot Twist. It is one of newer perks that came out with Nicolas Cage DLC. The perk allow you to put yourself in dying state then recover at full health. This is not what I am talking about.
What i am talking about is when there 2-3 generator remaining and both survivors just play stealthy because neither of two survivors want to take chase because both of them know that finishing 3 gens is not possible. As a result, you get prologue end games where killer can might spend an unreasonable amount of time to finish the game because survivor are playing excessively stealthy. Games can also be extended by the killer if the killer finds one survivor and slug them because of hatch mechanic. End game stealth and end-game slugging when two people are left are not fun mechanics in the game.
This is why I suggested something like when 2 survivors remain, after 2 minutes passes, the killer gets loud noise notification every 30 seconds so that this prologue stealth does not hold the game hostage. A change like this somewhat feels like a nerf to the survivor stealth but it is just that this type gameplay mechanic is not healthy for dbd. The end games being drawn out accomplish very little in term of gameplay. It is better if the match just ended faster. There needs to be a more smoother way to transition to the EGC where last survivor finds hatch, Killer closes the hatch or survivor opens exit gate. That is why I just suggested small buff to try to make stealth a bit more relevant in survivor gameplay which was 20% faster base-walking speed and 20% faster crouching speed as some sort of counter-balance to erasing end game stealth. I do not think this will suddenly make survivors into ghosts. It is just survivor barely makes an effort to stealth in current dbd ever since post 6.1.0 patch where Iron will & Spine chill got weakened. More often than not, the survivors tend to play hyper aggressive with looping.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569735#Comment_3569735
There is interaction, but it is one-sided for the most part, just like stealth at large. The problem is it is very annoying to fail at finding someone as Killer, but colossally rewarding to rotate the tree and the rock to avoid the Killer as Survivor. Since that is at the very heart of the design of the game, I can't quite say stealth's removal (and by extension Distortion's removal) would be good.
I do remember they were saying that when Distortion came out, aura reads were much more rare, but then look at Blight's aura add-on. I would think Distortion would work better if it blocked 2 sources of aura reads, instead of the aura reads themselves. That way anyone dedicating their build to auras isn't countered, but an only Lethal User or Blight add-on would be countered. At the same time, that could hurt Ghosty Iri Cam and Floods users disproportionately. Overall I think Distortion is fine as is, as it gets the job done, but anyone dedicated to auras can 'burn through' the tokens easy enough.
The other suggestion earlier in the thread of not gaining tokens mid-chase is probably the healthiest change for it, if it needs a nerf at all.
stealth for survivor is one of least utilized mechanics for survivor. so in many ways, i would like see more stealth on survivor. there is just one problem with dbd and stealth. that problem is that stealth is unlimited in the game. What i mean by that is that you can hold game hostage with stealth. I sort of equate 3 gen with old overcharge+cob+eruption** as same problem that stealth has for survivor. If there is only two survivor remaining, both survivor can just hide forever and somewhat hold the hostage where killer cannot find anyone. In many ways, I would like see stealth buffed but be less unlimited so that holding game hostage through stealth is less annoying. to put simply, nobody enjoys looking for survivors 20-30 minutes at the very end of the game. Luckily, this is very rare you encounter this problem but it is still not a fun gameplay experience.
stealth to avoid killer to do generators tactically is fair strategy. stealth to prologue game is unfun. nobody has interesting in playing 50 minute skull merchant games just as killer has no interest in playing 20-30 minutes of hide & seek in the end game. at same time, I am not sure what they could do to fix that problem beyond make it that if there two survivor remaining, maybe killer can get a crow notification after 2 minutes of gameplay. in exchange, perhaps survivor could have like 20% base-kit faster walking & crouching m/s or something along those lines to slightly improve stealth.
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@Batusalen said:
People complained that her 3gen zoning was boring and wanted a chasing killer. They change her to a chasing killer with anti-loop, and now you complain that she can anti-loop.
At this point, it is obvious that you won't stop complaining until she becomes a M1 killer with no power.
exactly, complains about 3 hour skull merchant games only to now complain about the killer chasing...
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i mean main problem nemesis is zombies are too weak compare xeno mobility. those are some juicy tentacle strike buffs.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569735#Comment_3569735
The perk deserves this nerf because it's currently over buffed. Players that excessively hide, should not get token rewards for excessively hiding. They should be encouraged to eventually interact with the killer.
Survivors excessively hiding is one of the game's biggest problems. It's frustrating for both sides of the game. Why would survivors want teammates that excessively hide? It encourages killers to tunnel the other survivors, because the other survivors are easier to fine. And it's not fun to be on the same team with survivors that don't want to do their fair share of chases, and instead just want their teammates to carry them the entire game. If I was given a choice to have 3 teammates that are good at chases, or 3 teammates that are good at hiding, then I'd obviously pick the 3 teammates that are good at chases.
when your on death hook, you do not want to interact with the killer. you want hide the entire game...
If I was given a choice to have 3 teammates that are good at chases, or 3 teammates that are good at hiding, then I'd obviously pick the 3 teammates that are good at chases.
i mean if they're good at doing gens, then them hiding is good. they hide and do generators. Also if they're hiding, you should be hiding as survivor. the killer walks around mindlessly while you progress gens. free wins on survivor.
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@fussy said:
It seems to me that this map has become even worse than it was, especially for killers. And I don't know a single player who enjoys it.
Problems of pre-rework Haddonfield:
- House of Pain – probably most broken building in dbd history.
- Too abusive main building (1st floor window was nerfed before rework)
- Too good tiles and windows connection.
- 12-15 pallets on the map (okish by itself), half of them were too good, without mindgame potential
- Many good windows in addition
Current Haddonfield:
- 3 (three) (THREE) (I MEAN T H R E E) i-will-jump-into-these-windows-till-they-will-blocked braindead houses
- Main, which become infinite (literally, you can't even start chase), if you started run it right, especially with MFT
- But sometimes there are like 5 or 6 playable pallets and some that could not exist at all outside the houses
- Huge deadzones from the start
So i don't see the point of this rework at all. Most streamers i watch hate this map. Main problem with this map aka HAHA I HAVE THIS TIGHT WINDOW AND YOU CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT IT is only increased after rework.
Yes, this, of course, is far from the worst map in the game right now, and you don't feel very bad on some killers here, but in the future, I believe, this map should definitely be revised.
so old haddonfield was same. the map was not pallet dense. the map in fact had very few pallets. the few pallet it had were really strong. what made this not seem apparent in old haddonfield was map structure. it was strong stealth map because killer had to path around houses to check gens. in new map, stealth aspect of this map was heavily decreased.
new haddonfield follows same logic. it has few pallets. the few pallet that exist are really strong. what stands out in the map was strong windows. the difference between new haddonfield and old haddonfield was that windows are mostly on first floor. they're way easier to utilize as survivor compare to old haddonfield. on old haddonfield, the *infinity windows were on 2nd floor and you had to understand vantage points in the outside houses and inside houses to use them.In new one, you don't need understand as much on vantage points. you simply vault windows over and over and there is nothing more to it.
infinity windows are the strongest loop in dbd and the fact that haddonfield is full of those is just terrible for m1 killers. the map is not as bad for high-tier strong anti-loops killers because of nerfed stealth but it is still terrible chasing map for m1's. each of one of those house loops are just auto-lose chases for killer. as a result, many of killer that play new haddonfield 3 gen on that map near main building because going for chasing into window infinities as m1 is very uninteresting.
overall, it seems that their design for haddonfield is to make a map full of window infinities. Every single killer player hates window infinities. no killer will ever enjoy playing that map unless they're playing like A-tier.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The tokens shouldn't replenish at all. Or if they need to replenish, they should only replenish in chase, to encourage survivors to eventually interact with the killer.
when a survivor is stealth actions with distortion, there is zero interest to intact with the killer. the whole point of stealth perks is to not get found. distortion only became valuable after 6.1.0 patch that buffed it. before this point, nobody used distortion because it was not worth the perk slot.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569181#Comment_3569181
This is about right. The thing is, whenever something is nerfed, we see a speed up in Gen Time, because it becomes less viable to do other things. Boons are not worth blessing anymore. With every Healing Nerf we see less people actually going for Heals, because Healing Nerfs drive them away from healing (that basically every Killer is using something to apply Mangled is also increasing this).
Killers also talk about a secondary Objective, but from what I read, it looks like they want it on top of 90 second-Gens. At least I have never seen some Killer Main say that Gen Time should be decreased and a secondary Objective should be added.
Secondary Objectives either need to reward Survivors (other than "you escape", because this is already the reward for completing Generators) OR if there is no reward, actual Gen Time needs to decrease (e.g. searching for parts which should take on average 40 seconds, followed by 50 seconds of Gen Repair).
Because the sad thing is, currently there is not really much you can do outside of Gens and probably Healing against a Killer who is not completely incompetent. Because you will be faced with at least 2 Slowdown-Perks which further increase Gen Time.
Killers also talk about a secondary Objective, but from what I read, it looks like they want it on top of 90 second-Gens. At least I have never seen some Killer Main say that Gen Time should be decreased and a secondary Objective should be added.
Secondary Objectives either need to reward Survivors (other than "you escape", because this is already the reward for completing Generators) OR if there is no reward, actual Gen Time needs to decrease (e.g. searching for parts which should take on average 40 seconds, followed by 50 seconds of Gen Repair).
killer never said gen time should be decreased because gens fly too fast passively. all that 90 second generator accomplished is that it made early game less volatile for killer. On most killers that do not have bad early games, you are less likely to lose 3 gens in first chase. now it is more like 2 gens loss on first chase and like 70% of 3rd gen vs efficient team. I am not saying that you cannot lose 3 gens in first chase as killer but you have less probability to lose 3 gens compare to before.
there only two possible secondary objectives in the game for survivor. the first is hex totems. the issue with those is same as issue with gen defence perks. your requiring killer equip perks in order to stall the game. Think of Original hex:Undying+200% Hex:Ruin. in other words killer has no perk variety. The other secondary objective is healing. The problem with healing is that survivor have no obligation to heal. The longer you make healing take, the more likely survivor are to play injured entire trial because at some point, healing becomes impractical time investment such that working on generator injured is superior win condition then healing. Survivor will not perform secondary objectives that make them lose. they will just endure any penalty and push through the drawback. For example, hex:ruin is perfect example of secondary objective in totems that many survivor would not cleanse unless they happen to come across totem due to bvhr's terrible totem placements. the strongest teams on survivor would rush gens through hex:ruin when old undying was in the game because the cost benefit of searching 5 hex totems was worse then just powering gens through Hex:ruin. people do this all the time with hex:plaything where they ignore totem because of cost-benefit of hex:pentimento perk. They rather endure hex:plaything oblivious than waste time cleansing totem only to get 30% slowdown on hex:penti. Healing and Sloppy butcher is another example of how people ignore healing because cost benefits of healing diminish such that working on generator injured is superior then wasting time healing. that is summary to why secondary objectives do not really work too well in dbd. if secondary objective makes survivor lose, survivors will just ignore any penalty and push through it. This is summary to why secondary objectives do not work very well at slowing down the game for killer. Primary gen-delay is far superior.
now that we talked about why secondary game-delay is irrelevant. the current issue for killers is lack of perk variety and gameplay variety. spreading out hooks killer is losing game proposal currently because killer spend time chasing survivors but they do not get rewarded for downing survivors quickly. there is lack of comeback mechanics for killer that do not tunnel on involuntary/voluntary scale. Killer need automatic geme-delay for succeeding chases because after they lose 2-3 gens from early game. Killers need a way to stabilize the game when they are successful in the chases. without that, killer will continue to tunnel to shortcut wins by strategically hooking two people because there is not enough time to go for 8-10 chases. A example of base-game delay mechanic for killer would be SC:Pain res on every hook. this would make killer less reliant on gen defence because they would have some default dynamic game-delay to stabilizing the match.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568597#Comment_3568597
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568666#Comment_3568666
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568669#Comment_3568669
Saving 8sec of healing sounds nice in concept, but its not.
Usually Boon Coh stays away from Gens, example we have this unhooking position.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DZDI3NHHZ5Q1/image.png
Without using Boon, 2 survivors lost 47sec that not spending on Gens (assume 1 dash line takes 1 second to run)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GT2HURAEBLW7/image.png
Using Boon, 2 survivors lost 55sec not spending on Gens, this is not even counting 14sec to bless
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0VN28339QEH6/image.png
I saw too many survivors run to Boon to save 8sec, but actually they lost much more time.
boons problem is just radius. your circle is correct because of 24 meter radius. if you blue circle was bigger then survivor would spend less time walking and more time gaining benefits from said boon perks. I don't think the concept is failed. it just poor has numbers currently.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569061#Comment_3569061
So for hag, if you play against a good hag main, they use the "Scrollwheel tech". When they do that, no amount of "shift+w" is going to get you away from her when you trigger a trap, and unlike trapper, she "has all her traps from the start" and can just constantly place them whenever she needs them.
For ghostface, i still recognize that, depending on the map and RNG and such, he can still just insta-down people without them having a chance to react at all. Wraith, can use the movement speed to mindgame certain pallets, but he makes so much noise that you generally aren't getting the drop on any decent survivor even with your stealth, so he still ends up playing the loop game on the majority of pallets on a map.
In general though, you need to not take the list there as an exact science, it was just my gut reaction when thinking about each killer for 5 seconds. It isn't some gospel take that even i 100% agree with. I was simply making a point that its less about the idea of "m1 killer" and more about, "how much of the loop around the piece of wood does this killer have to deal with"
the whole point is that your not suppose to trigger traps. they're visible with grey triangle on floor. you hold-w transitioning to loops. she takes like 2 second to place them without the increase setting speed you can easily do 60+ second chases between two hits. when accounting hook time and how slow hag plays. that is like 3 gens in first chase if you successfully spread out and do gens. if you crouch, it takes 3.5 second to wipe traps. No flashlight are needed for hag anymore. by the time chasing hag gets hits, you can finish a majority of the game. Hag ignoring loops is like Knight dropping guards. it counters looping but is not time efficient.
most killer fall somewhere in middle where they are not purely m1 but they are not strong in the chase. player label them as m1 as synonymy to a weak killer that takes too long to get downs in the 1vs1.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569046#Comment_3569046
Everyone knows that "just use so-and-so perk" isn't the solution. In fact, I DID run Soul Guard for a while after this, and guess what? I haven't had any Killers slug me like that since, making it a wasted perk slot.
your correct, that type of slugging is not fun when you get hit immediately when being picked up. soulguard is useless right now because slugging is not primary way killer ever choose to kill survivors but if it became threatened to be slugged then I could see Soulguard being base-kit. It is just that weakened a strategy that is chronically under-powered and under-utilized is not in the cards.
I guess we will see if they buff slugging in twin updates or if it will just be ghostface type update where very little changes and no one plays them because slugging.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/394972/what-are-peoples-definition-of-m1-killer
The problem with the definition of "m1" killer is that it includes killers like pinhead, who really aren't what we are talking bout when people say things like "m1 killers are hurt by mft".
I think the term "m1 killer" is pretty loaded, but in general, when i hear it, or say it, i generally think of "this killer has to play the loop game". This includes killers like demogorgon to me, because they still have to loop, they just have a mindgame at certain points where its "are they gonna m2?" and the survivor has to decide. Then there are some that don't even play the same game, like nurse. And then there are others that always have to play the loop game, like legion.
Maybe it is better to think of it as, there is a dropped non-god pallet, maybe like, a pallet gym or something. How likely is it that the killer can get the down without breaking said pallet? And that is what i think of when i think of "m1 killer"
So basically, i see it almost like a "tier list" but not really talking about strength just how much they have to play the loop game:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5EEF507I2DEC/image.png
To explain a few entries that might surprise people:
- Blight still has to play the loop game around certain pallets and loops, but certainly can get around them at many of them, especially with hug tech.
- Artist can completely shut down a loop requiring a "leave the loop" style of gameplay that is stronger that most.
- Dredge can do similar to artist, but he is slowed down SO much, that the "just leave the loop" playstyle is far stronger against him when he tries to do one of these mindgames
- Oni doesn't really play the loop game when he gets his power, but outside of his power he has to.
- Wesker can use his power at some loops but many of them not really due to how they are shaped.
- Knight and SM still have to play the loop game as their power itself isn't really strong enough to down like it is with artist, just enough to corral them. For example the "drop a guard at a loop" gameplay of knight is countered by leaving the loop, but so much so that the knight can do nothing but deal with the shift+w, whereas artist can use ranged attacks to deal with that style of gameplay.
- Demo/Nemesis/PH/Xeno still have to play the loop game, again they do get an extra mindgame that other killer's don't, but they are still going to be running around the loop just like any other.
- Wraith does have stealth, but he still has to play the loop game, some loops are short enough that the speed boost can mindgame around a pallet.
- Sadako also has stealth, but she slows down unlike wraith, meaning she must play the loop game in a chase
- Trapper might have traps, but they can't really be used in chase
- Trickster might be ranged, but his power doesn't work the same as huntress requiring him to often loop around things
- Plague is in the "loop 25% of the time category" when she has corrupt purge. But the problem there is, any good survivor team will never cleanse, meaning you at most (depending on addons) get 3 a game, and basekit only 1. Putting her in the "loops 75% of the time category"
i think it depends on what you categorize as looping. for me, there is 2 part of looping. the first part of looping is using windows and pallets themselves to make distance within tile itself. the second aspect is how quickly the killer recovers from distance gain, the shift-w/pre-running aspect of the game and how well the killer chains downs. Looping is wasting time and delaying downs from the killer but categorizing time waste in chase from the killer is not clear-cut for every killer.
your list says that Hag does not play loops yet shift-w is one of strongest counters to hag because she is 110% m/s and has to set traps. if you set traps in the middle of the map while your chasing then survivor can shift-w to other loops. she can out-zone loops much like dredge, knight or artist by corralling you in the corner of the map but this is recipe to lose 2-3 gens at the start of every trial vs strong team. I am curious to why you think she is so time efficient in the chase.
GF at 75% of loops? he has no chase potencial at base-kit beyond red glow.
Wraith is barely makes any distance at base-kit with his speed boost because his bell takes a long time to ring. when I play survivor, I often see uncloaking add-on to try to improve his chase.
I wonder why you place hag so highly along side wraith and GF as not m1 killers?