Angerydoge
Angerydoge
About
- Username
- Angerydoge
- Joined
- Visits
- 115
- Last Active
Comments
-
Giraffe clown skin when?
-
@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889137#Comment_3889137
Because it is not win, just end match faster. You get barely no bp and far less score for pips
Yeah and the people who primarily 4 man slug rn aren't doing it for BP or score. All I'm saying is that "Surrendering" will likely still satisfy many of the people who currently 4 man slug while allowing them to get through more games as they take less time. This would make 4 man slugs more common occurrences.
Providing ways to pull back games from these situations would be better as it incentivises closer games rather than a go next mentality which is what the surrender system would do. -
@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
I have said before and I will say again (and again and again and again) any attempt to punish or prevent slugging is fruitless. The REASON killers are slugging needs to be addressed. Why do so many do it? I have some ideas as a killer main who doesn't go out of my way to slug, but beyond that is above my pay grade.
My suggested change doesn't really punish slugging, it prevents problematic slugging (i.e- the entire team being incapacitated) while still allowing for the game to be played. Generic slugging, such as maximising power value or preventing a save isn't changed.
I fully agree with you that the reasons why killers slug need to be addressed, many killers simply aren't viable currently and do sometimes have to rely extensively on generic slugging to win.
As my suggested system doesn't really impact generic slugging these killer's wont be weaker. It would solely be there to prevent 4 man slugging while still encouraging gameplay. Hopefully BHVR could actually start reworking some of less viable killers too though. -
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887948#Comment_3887948
Want to go on record as saying thanks for the measured response... and I probably should apologise, I happened to read 3 overly dramatic posts in rapid succession that I bit my tongue on to not feed the non-debates, and was a little coiled up when I got to this one, which was more reasonable to reply to, but then my heckles were unnecessarily up 😅
The only issue I have with your suggestion is I have been in games where survivors are constantly trying to surround and harass me, deny me pick ups with pallets, flashlights and sabos. In this scenario, the only option I have is to slug repeatedly until either they are all slugged, or they get the message and leave. Your suggestion makes it so I can't even do that.
I don't believe slugging can be solved with any form of Unbreakable, it's too much power in the survivors kit that creates way too many "what if" scenario's. My opinion on slugging, is give survivors mechanisms to get apart when slugged so trying to mass slug mapwide is harder for the killer to track and maintain the slug.
It's fine lol.
What I will say is that in my suggested system every living survivor has to be downed for survivors to be given the ability, as well as the fact that they have to fully recover first (at normal recovery speed).
Considering this, it makes it more likely that they won't be able to use the ability in an "abusable" manner, and if they do there is the fact that the ability means no one has been doing the objective the entire time as it requires everyone to be downed to take effect.
What you suggest is a potential issue but I think it would be exceptionally rare because of how circumstantial the conditions required for survivors to pick themselves up are, furthermore even when it would happen the survivors aren't winning the game when it does.
For clarification while I do believe that slugging is not fun, I only believe that 4 man slugging is an oppressive issue that needs addressing correctly before going into the FNAF collab. While not fun, being slugged by the killer because they need to make good use of their power is part of the games balance, there are other situations too. -
@UndeddJester said:
We do get a lot of drama in these forums don't we?
Irrespective of the validity of slugging the whole team as a strategy, how does allowing survivors to quit when they have clearly lost the game directly cause an increase in slugging? If it somehow does, why do we feel the ability to quit is the feature that needs addressing?
Slugging being effective or not is a separate topic from this feature; if slugging the whole team was completely unviable as a strategy would we still be arguing this feature is a problem? No… we wouldn't, so it's pretty irrelevant as a discussion.
You're trying to argue A + B = C, when in reality its more like A = C and B = B.
Apologies for the kind of bait title I just wanted people to actually look at my suggestion as I think the surrender system is a bad idea and a perfect example of what the game should avoid.
Why will 4 man slugging become more prevalent?:
What I'm saying is that there is a high probability that 4 man slugging will "increase", the reason for this is purely mathematical, people who are inclined to 4 man slug, especially those who do so to be toxic (i.e- slugging to bleed out), will likely see a surrender as a personal win.
As surrendering ends the game prematurely this will shorten the amount of time these games take allowing them to play more matches, and thus 4 man slugging will become more prevalent, not necessarily because more people are doing it.
Why this matters:
While this is still a hypothetical the other question I ask is, why take this risk going into arguably the biggest collaboration for the game ever?
The new player experience is already pretty poor, but if new players go into a match and find out they literally have no other choice than to just press a button to quit, they very well may just leave, especially if it's more prominent than now, which is a possibility if the current suggested system is implemented.
This is why I believe the surrender system is a bad idea, however I feel it's a symptom of a greater problem…
Wrong Design Mentality:
The surrender option directly feeds into the go next mentality. A surrender option is a go next feature to be more accurate. Why not allow players to play the game rather than just telling them to give up? They say they want to address going next yet they are actively encouraging it! It doesn't make sense. The system I suggested would encourage people to play the game, try to stick matches out and even pull matches back, the surrender system does the opposite. The game just ends.
BHVR should be actively adding gameplay systems for both sides to reduce games that are a foregone conclusion. Not adding gameplay systems that encourage giving up because of games that are a foregone conclusion. -
@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887437#Comment_3887437
But killers who slug for win will not do that since surrender is not a win for a killer. Also slugging gives almost no points, no grades, nothing especially slug only playstyle.
People who only slug will do that regardless. But their victims will suffer less which may decrease sluggers incentives for slugging, because they do that to make other side miserable.Considering it's BHVR it wouldn't surprise me if they end up counting a surrender as a win and giving bonus bp for it but I'm not going to argue solely on hypotheticals.
Why accept horrible scenarios in the game rather than remove them or at least give people the ability to fight back against them?
Why does it have to be "well they 4 man slugged so we lost at 4 gens"?
When it comes down to it people play this game to have fun and the surrender mechanic doesn't provide it. The most fun moments in DbD are when games are close. Not when the killer gets a lucky 4 man down at the start or is doing some unbalanced build (singularity knock out etc…).
There is an entire epidemic in the game right now of people giving up and going next rather than sticking games out, adding a surrender option is literally feeding into that. Why not allow and encourage players to stick games out via the gameplay itself rather than accepting defeat 2 minutes into matches? -
@SkeletalElite said:
Playing to win is not toxic. Using slugging as your victory condition is not toxic. What is toxic is intentionally bleeding out the survivors after you have won to waste their time. The surrender option prevents that and saves everyone's time.
No playing to win is not toxic, but from a survivor perspective being slugged (unless you happen you have an anti-slug perk and even then) is not fun. You are literally forced to not play the game.
I respect your opinion but I disagree. Basing your win condition around a practice that literally guarantees that the other side will not enjoy the match is arguably toxic.
As a predominantly Solo Q player, 4 man slugging (even if not to bleed out) is the worst experience in the game by far to me.
The system I suggested still allows for slugging in scenarios where it makes sense, for example to maximise power value. It only guarantees that at least 1 survivor is available for counter play and encourages hooking, which is the intended way to play killer. It will create closer matches which are arguably the most satisfying moments in DbD too.
I can't think of anything sadder in this game than loading into a match, everyone getting downed within 2 minutes then just surrendering. The exact same can be said from a killer perspective too, it's really sad if a killer gets ran because of a disgusting setup and gets no hooks the entire game. There isn't fun in those games, arguably for either side. This is what should be minimized as much as possible and the surrender option only allows for more games like that. -
I'm not sure if you are talking about my suggested system but if you are please explain to me how it would encourage slugging builds.
(edit): idk why it didn't quote "YuffieGreatestWaifu" -
@Archael said:
...So... Killers will slug to allow survs to surrender for not winning the trial?
With the surrender option slugging is arguably a better play style than hooking. No surv perks activated by hooking will be available and if survivors do surrender if they are slugged (not necessarily to bleed out) then it's going to save killers who do slug time in matches, which means that they will go through more matches.
Furthermore slugging over hooking is already becoming more and more popular and if it is genuinely seems as better than hooking it will only make it more popular. It's a dangerous game because if it does become really popular before a massive influx of new players, and also considering the games bad matchmaking, many new players are going to encounter the slugging over hooking playstyle, and as such essentially be forced to surrender instead of playing the game.
Considering the abysmal new player experience too that will probably drive a lot of new players away.
The system I suggested guarantees that 4 man slugging to win will not become more popular while not punishing killers who play the game normally. -
To be honest map offerings would be better if they just guaranteed that a map wouldn't be pulled instead of guaranteeing it. I.e- Burn Mary's letter to not go to Silent Hill. It just means that people can avoid bad maps rather than be forced to play on bad maps.
-
@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886108#Comment_3886108
Occam's razor. The devs aren't good at balancing maps whatsoever. I also have a feeling there is weird licensing issues at play with maps. Look at badham that STILL has 5 variants that are insanely obnoxious to play on. Surely freddy was being considered for changes a long time ago as well.
I'm inclined to agree that there are probably licencing issues (i.e- the maps must somewhat look like what they are based off in the original media so they need to be approved first). But do also consider that there had been incredibly broken stuff that was original too.
-
@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886029#Comment_3886029
I mean there is usually nothing stopping killers from just picking up and hooking everyone once they got the 4 man slug.
No there isn't, but there also isn't anything that encourages them to either, and if there is no effective difference between surrendered survivors and sacrificed survivors then killers who are going for a 4 man slug (arguably toxic) will probably just try and be more toxic by getting the survivors to bleed out or surrender instead of just hooking them.
This system arguably rewards 4 man slugging by making it a valid play style which will make it more prominent. This is exactly the opposite of what BHVR wants to achieve.
In my opinion, a system that would address problematic slugging (4 man slug) would be like this:
Once every survivor has been downed by the killer (not Plot Twist), each survivor gains a token. This token can be used to pick yourself up from the dying state once you have fully recovered. The token is consumed if you are go from the dying state to the injured state, or are hooked.
This is not abusable by SWF as the killer controls when it can happen, it just guarantees that the survivors have at least someone available for counter play rather than just being forced to give up. -
For some reason instead of actively trying to balance the game it's like the devs take revenge on their own issues with the game. Haddonfield used to be incredibly survivor sided but now it has to be incredibly killer sided because it used to be incredibly survivor sided. There are a lot of other examples of this too. Skull merchant used to be horrible so instead of reworking her to actually be fun they just made her unviable. There's another example too where a former dev hated flashlights so much they reworked light born so that killers couldn't be blinded at all when using it.
Quite frankly this won't be addressed, at least not for a year or two.
On the off chance that any of the devs actually read this, please prove me wrong, please rework things to be fun. -
If they do this then 4 man slugging will become even more of an issue because there is literally no difference to the killer between hooking and slugging.
-
@Berienn said:
Srsly people you need to learn how to play as survivor or find friends and play together. It's only your problem that last survivor doesn't help you and leave you bleeding out. It's not killer's fault that YOUR teammate doesn't care about you and won't help you. It's killer's job to kill ALL survivors and if last one is trying to get hatch then he NEED to leave you on the ground. if you want blame someone then blame devs for creating hatch mechanic like this. Don't blame killer for doing his job.
a 3k is still counted as a win by the game, the hatch exists so that if there is only 1 surv left in the game they have a chance. Personally when I play killer i don't slug for the 4k unless i know exactly where the last survivor is because it just drags the game out
-
@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433815/basekit-unbreakable
"From the survivor side, slugging is not fun, you are basically just waiting with nothing to do until you either get picked up by someone else or hooked."
Gens flying is equally unfun from the killer side, but the reason for insanely fast gen speed being possible is BECAUSE the killer can knock everybody down for the win.
The killer being able to "slug" everybody is also the reason that pallets and windows connect so easily as well as the reason for the existence of "god-loops."
Going for 12 individual hooks was a trend that was started by streamers and frankly, was only done in the name of building popularity and painting themselves as being "the cool kid."
I never stated that genrushing wasn't an unfun experience for the killer. In fact I think it's pretty problematic against killers that don't have much map pressure capabilities (Myers, GF and other low mob killers). However one unfun mechanic doesn't justify another's existence. I think this is a really negative way to view game balance. If the game is technically "balanced" but there's no enjoyment in playing the game, then what's the point.
Furthermore not every map has "god-loops", or might not have many loops that do chain well. Granted, I don't really see how this relates to problematic slugging.
Again, I never said anything about getting 12 individual hooks. Personally I think that problematic tunnelling has largely been solved with off-hook endurance. However there are situations where going for a survivor who is on death hook rather than one who is not is a valid strategy. Even still, I don't see how this relates to problematic slugging.
I'm not sure if you read any of the more recent posts but I having done a bit more research I believe that direct basekit UB would actually be too strong. Most likely not in Solo Q but it could be abused by SWF, furthermore disabling game elements because of SWF would just be bad design.
For this reason I suggested a token system for being able to pick yourself up. Basically it would work like this.
If every living survivor goes down (by direct means of the killer, not something like plot twist), then everyone who is currently slugged gets one token, this token can be used to fully recover from the dying state. For this token to be used you have to fully recover, you can't just press a button to pick yourself up instantly. When you pick yourself up, or are picked up by another survivor, your token is consumed.
Furthermore combining this with more basekit hook related incentives like a mini basekit pop (maybe 10% ish idk) would strongly incentivise taking hooks over 4 man slugging. As the killer can decide whether they down the last survivor, they have the control, meaning it would be difficult to abuse by SWF. -
@Blaconia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849807#Comment_3849807
I should have been clearer — I wasn't sure how you would add more incentives (or rewards) for hooking, just that it would help, and the ideas were just ideas to start. That said, "buff hooking perks" does a lot of heavy lifting, but one example is to buff pain res back to 25% (but deactivate it when a survivor dies). The issue I experience now is there are so many obstacles to hooking but little incentive to do so when I could just move onto my next chase instantly. It's viable on not just S tiers, but weak killers like clown.
Basekit UB is a really artificial way of nerfing slugging that punishes killers for slugging (in contrast to rewarding hooking), just like anti-camp artificially counters face camping without addressing strong campers like huntress.
My biggest issue with basekit UB is that you can force the killer to slug - bgp pallet saves, flashbang/flashlights (with the save buffer), breakdown and dying corner, and flip flop power struggle all force the killer to slug. Remember when hooks didn't respawn? It would create hook deadzones where survs dying corner would force the killer to slug. Basekit UB in all of these situations creates a lose-lose situation where no matter what, the killer cannot win and is punished for… succeeding in a chase and daring to hook as intended.
Imagine your first down - you pick up Mikaela, and Ace runs up with BGP to sabo your hook at 100% speed. Do you try to go to another hook? No you drop the Mikaela and chase the Ace - notice dropping gives Mikaela 20% extra wiggle and makes hooking her impossible, at which point basekit UB punishes you by her getting up for free while her teammates do gens. It doesn't matter that Ace had to be off gens to do this, hooking also forces a surv off a gen and this also delays that first hook.
You say hooking is intended gameplay (and I agree) but without basekit UB, tell me why I shouldn't just swap out Pain Res/Pop/Grim/DMS/GOP for perks like infectious and eruption and just immediately start chasing the next closest survivor? Remember I'm not wasting time hooking, I'm deleting most of the meta surv perks, flashlights do nothing and a survivor still has to get off a gen to pick them up. I remember one game I 4 man slugged but the time I humoured them and hooked someone, I immediately got hit by OTR. The game encourages slugging, and basekit UB would artificially "solve" it at the cost of punishing killers without actually addressing why slugging might be too strong or incentivised over hooking.
You also can't disable features for people playing in SWFs, that's punishing people for playing with their friends. Instead focus on features that bring solo queue players up to SWF level.
I want BHVR to actually try limiting slugging where it's problematic (knock out, billy, twins, singularity) without interrupting intended play and see if further changes are necessary once those changes go live. I really do think with those changes slugging becomes a lot less problematic. In my too many hours playing the game, I haven't found 4 man slugging that common - I mostly only see it and find it hard to counter if knock out is in play or it's a killer who's good at slugging (billy, twins, singularity). Address them and you deal with a lot of the issue. In cases where that fails, you can also provide a give up option, for example slugged survivors could choose to bleed out faster.
I agree with you now, but do still think that some slugging situations need to be addressed, specifically 4 man slug.
To be clear in my op im talking from a solo q perspective, after looking into how powerful basekit UB could be in SWF I now believe it could be abused. From a solo q perspective I think it could be balanced but disabling game aspects depending on SWF would be bad design. Not sure if you read my new idea but I think it would be a lot better.
Basically you get a "pick up Token". When every living survivor is downed everyone gets one token, this token is removed if they are picked up (not by killer) by any means. Basically if 3 survivors are down, they cannot pick themselves up. Only if the killer (not things like plot twist) downs the 4th survivor does everyone get a token that can be used to pick themselves up. This solely discourages the most unfun parts of slugging while still allowing for full use of power, and cannot be abused by SWF unless the killer purposely downs the last survivor. To clarify, survivors still have to fully recover, there wouldn't be a button to instantly pick yourself up with no progress. It would just allow the bar to be fully filled by yourself. For example if the killer gets all 4 people down instantly its basically still a game over.
-
@KingOfDoom55 said:
I Hope you know this would encourage toxic behavior right? Majority of survivors I encounter, I have to slug bc all/Majority of them would body block, flash and stun constantly so much so its pointless to continue, some rounds I've seen killers give up entirely bc ofmy survivors random teammates for doing exactly this, because their skill gap from the Killer is so vast that it discourages people from having fun as killer, and this may just cause the toxicity in survivors to worsen, ik there's plenty of killers only do it to toxic players or as a last resort, and others do it bc they are tired of toxic survivors (or do it bc they AREone of the toxic survivors), adding this would just make the game survivor orientated again. If this does become a thing, it should only allow 1 unbreakable per survivor while granting endurance and haste (like an unhook situation) but even so, I still think it's a terrible ide
I don't really get your argument, like matchmaking is bad so excessive slugging is required? If a killer manages to get more than 2 survivors down and they know that there isn't anyone who could save (flashlight, stun, flashbang and so on) there is no reason why they shouldn't hook the downed survivors. If you read my post you would see that I actually say that I think extending the timer for recovery is probably a good idea to allow for optimal power usage while still giving survivors options.
Furthermore, a lot of toxic groups already all run UB anyway, they are already getting this value.
@Blaconia said:
tl;dr Reward hooking instead of punishing slugging. Address slugging where it's problematic, don't slap a bandaid basekit UB on it.
"Problematic" slugging isn't that common, and it usually happens to counter survivor actions like sabo or is enabled by perks like knockout or killers like billy, twins and singularity. The issue is there is often little incentive to hook but many incentives to slug. Hooking
- risks BGP flashbang/pallet saves, sabo, flip flop power struggle etc to deny my hooks
- gives survivors access to a lot of insane perks like Deli, OTR, DS, DH, Resurgence, Shoulder the Burden, We'll Make it, Reassurance/Cama to name a few
- makes me deal with anti-camp, whereas I can just freely protect slugs
- makes me spend time hooking that I could just be moving onto my next chase
Slugging counters the above. I might see unbreakable, wglf and exponential, but that's the tradeoff of often deleting over half of the survivors' hook perks perks in the match. Without hooking, chases are a lot faster so the need for gen regression goes down so the killer can stack info/slugging perks. (nerf knockout bhvr!!!)
Instead of basekit UB to punish slugging which you often have no choice about, incentivise hooking, including something like:
- Basekit mini pop, 10% total gen kick after hooking
- Buff hooking perks.
- Nerf the anti face camp mechanic. Remove it in the 2v1. (in this scenario, specifically address killers who are good at camping like huntress and bubba)
- Restructuring sacrifice bloodpoints so you can actually get 10k points without late game hooks, and give a lot of points like ~1500 BPs for fresh hooks to reward splitting pressure.
Certain killers and perks make slugging too strong — you need to nerf their slugging potential without hurting their chase (counterbuff chase when necessary), examples include billy, twins, and singularity.
- Nerf knockout - BHVR if you're reading this nerf knockout. I know it has a low pickrate but it's a fundamentally unfun perk that punishes solo queue.
- Singularity - survivors should immediately lose slipstream when downed
- Billy - chainsawing a survivor should put Billy's overdrive on cooldown for ~30 seconds or until he hooks, and if necessary give overdrive charges when hooking
- Twins - tbh I don't know, maybe to start make Victor not give killer instinct when near a slug to make protecting slugs harder and bring back giving Charlotte haste after Victor downing a surv but make it stop when she starts chase with a survivor.
On slugging for the 4k — I usually hook unless I know where the 4th is but when I do I have to deal with anti-camp. I can't camp and if I try to find the 4th they can sneak in for the unhook. Especially if there are multiple gens left, this drags out the game even after the survivors have lost so why shouldn't I just always slug for the 4k?
So yeah, instead of adding a punishment in the form of basekit unbreakable how about just address slugging where it's actually problematic and reward hooking more.
Also - camping, tunnelling and slugging are just tactics. They're not bad manners, cheap or unreasonable. They're just methods to win the game that have their times when they are strongest. The reality is that
2v8 caging mechanic is not the solution either - that completely eliminates all strategy of survivors choosing where to die. Imagine ARP with a 3 gen at main. Survivors should take chases to shack but 2v8 caging will send them back to the 3 gen. That encourages dying in the 3 gen (terrible macro) which just encourages slugging because the 3 gen is right there to protect.
I agree with the concept of giving more incentives to hooking survivors instead of slugging, however I fail to see how many of your suggested changes would address this. Giving mini pop may be a good idea as it is an instant available reward for hooking. Furthermore, I don't really see how basekit UB would be a punishment for killers.
The intended killer playstyle is that even if survivors are downed for a short period of time they are still eventually picked up and are hooked so the match progresses. Following my idea that the recovery time is increased to allow for killers to get decent use out of their powers, this wouldn't really effect how killers who don't excessively slug play the game. Furthermore disabling this feature in games with 4 man SWF (potentially 3 man too) would remove chances of it being abused.
The main situation that needs to be removed (in my opinion) is 4 man slugging, at least in non 4 man SWF scenarios. I've had a few games over the past week where this happens and I literally just have to get up and do something else while everyone bleeds out.
Potentially a better idea is giving everyone a chance to pick them selves up when everyone is down, i.e- a token system, once you have picked yourself up or are picked up the token is removed, and everyone has to go down again for them to be regained. This still provides the disincentive for 4 man slugging while giving killers the ability to snowball, furthermore it removes any potential abuse.
-
Neither Survivors nor Killers are supposed to win 100% of their games. Furthermore Ghostface is one of the weaker killers, in my opinion, well designed killers shouldn't really need to slug, tunnel or camp to win their games. Unfortunately there are many killers that aren't designed well.
-
@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847924#Comment_3847924
It wasn't just that.
While it's true that the og Finisher Mori & offering/perk changes were also disgusting (I still can't believe they still, mostly, went ahead with the Finisher Mori despite so many people despising it and predicting that it would make slugging for the 4k worse, the current situation proving those fears true) the core problem was how it created countless lose-lose scenarios and annoying situations and how it really didn't really fix any issue without creating another in it's place.
People would still try to slug for the 4k but they would alternate between downing the last 2 Survivors again and again (since they would keep getting up in record time thanks to various perks, not just Unbreakable) and endgame bleedouts would not only still exists but would be even longer and still boring since what hope can 2 Survivors have of finishing 2+gens on their own? So many of my games in that dreadful PTB ended with one Survivor hiding in a corner while dropping/picking up item so his teammate would keep getting up because the Killer couldn't find him, these stupid stalemates could go on for 15+ minutes!
This also turned the gap between SWF and SoloQ into an ocean. SWF could create countless lose-lose scenarios (the most common was hovering around a downed Survivor so that if the Killer picked up he would get blinded/pallet stunned but if he chased the rescuer away then the slug could repeatedly get up and leave, no need for Power Struggle & Flip-Flop to create situations like that now, where the Killer can simply leave the slug there; it's likely not going anywhere anytime soon and a 3rd Survivor will have to leave gens to pick them up since a potential Unbreakable only works once). Those situations, which were common against decent Survivors and/or SWF, were just discouraging and nuked the fun out of the game.
BHVR, rightfully so, has shown (through HUD/perk updates and said so in a past livestream sometime around the 6.5.0 update) that they want to try to bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ because they know (they hear and see enough) that SoloQ is often a miserable experience. Basekit Unbreakable made the difference far worse.
Basekit Unbreakable was poison for the game, even worse than the annoying Finisher Mori we got now (which could easily be tweaked to be a healthy thing), and it can't come to the base game, imagine being a newcomer (or just any average player) and having to deal with 15+ minutes of constant slugging just as often as slugging for the 4k was before.
No, if a solution is to be made then it simply can't remove slugging entirely. A "bleedout button" is honestly a decent idea if it's implemented correctly, although a slight modification to the current Finisher Mori would also help a bit and be less of a (potential) tool to go next.
I did say in my post that potentially disabling or limiting this for 4 man SWF could be a balancing factor.
Furthermore I don't think disregarding an idea because it has issues is a good standard to set. Coming up with solutions rather than abandoning ideas is what the game needs right now.
-
@TheSableSimp said:
Stupid idea that people who don't play killer (or play killer in low MMR) say because they don't realize how much that would break the game.
Slugging is something that has to be done sometimes. Same with tunneling and camping. Sometimes you have to do these things if you wanna win.
Anyone who plays killer in high MMR knows this.
Casual players live in a fantasy world where they tell themselves "only trash killers tunnel😡" etc. When in reality it's just a part of the game. As killer, you have to do these things sometimes, unless you're okay with losing most of your games.
Guess what though? Don't like being slugged? There's perks for that. Don't like being tunneled? There's perks for that.
If you actually read my post you can see that I literally agree with you
-
Your argument literally doesn't make sense, the way you put it, if the 2nd survivor presses a button to bleed out, it would just immediately result in a hatch race, in the scenario that survivors can pick themselves up it, provided that the killer doesn't want this to happen, they just hook the 2nd survivor and they die, still resulting in a hatch race. The only difference is that people can actually play the game if they can pick themselves up.
Furthermore this removes the 4 man slug which is an issue that needs to be fixed.
-
The dc penalty as an idea doesn't really work in this game tbh, especially rn. There are so many issues with the game, 4man slug, latency, desync, bad teammates, trolling teammates, bodyblocking and more that are pretty valid reasons to dc but instead of addressing any of the actual issues they just ignore them.
There are bot's that exist when survivors dc to give the rest of the team a chance, but there is still a dc penalty, for this reason it incentives survivors to kill themselves rather than create a bot to replace them. This does not make sense.
-
I think a better way of doing "Escape from the hook" would be only giving 1 chance to escape that uses a quarter of the total bar. Furthermore buffing the luck offerings for this would mean it might be worth it.
-
@vladspellbinder said:
I'm am so very tired of being left to bleed out on the ground while the Killer slugs the whole team or if it's just me and one other person. I just wish I could "bleed out" while left on the ground that way at least the other Survivor would have the chance to get Hatch or and I can move on to the next game.
Easy fix, basekit unbreakable.
-
From my experience as an indie dev, yes it is possible to make them feel more natural, but I don't think the devs want that.
-
I actually think the toxic behaviour you mentioned is primarily the result of the dc penalty. Trapping players who have given up in the match results in this because they don't care. I think that removing the dc penalty (or at least reducing it) and adding an avoid as teammate function would likely be an improvement.
-
@Oloy294 said:
For the survivor skeleton as a hitbox, it shouldn't be tied to the model of the survivor, as some survivors are smaller than others and would give them a distinct advantage of making them harder to hit. More likely if it were to be a skeleton model, it would have to be a general model that is the exact same for all survivors but is invisible. At that point, it could still lead to hits that seem unfair, and it would also use a lot more memory.
To be honest I don't really see an issue with their being a slight variation in the size of survivor hit boxes. Hitboxes aren't visible in game. Killers should be aiming at survivors, not the invisible hit area around them. Furthermore the biggest size difference for survivors is in height, which is not a very important factor in the vast majority of killer powers.
Even still if you standardise a representative survivor hitbox (same size skeleton based collider) across all survivors that would most likely be better. I don't really see your point on memory, I suggested using a low poly survivor hitbox instead of a direct mesh collider of survivor skins which would pretty much eliminate any possible performance impact.
Again I feel that the majority of the unfair hit issues stems from latency and I'm optimistic that it can be fixed soon. My main issue is huntress hatchets (which are exacerbated by latency), even when you play as her you can literally see some of your hatchets don't hit.
-
@SidneysBane1996 said:
I agree with most of this except the double tapping thing.
That's kind of just what happens when you have two Killers. It's a feature, not a bug, and doesn't need addressing.
@trapners said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/432926/suggestions-for-2v8
didnt really agree with double tapping but YESS theres needs to be some secondary objective, maybe even make endgame more diffucult or something just something thats more engaging than 60 seconds of skill checks
My point is that having literally no available counter play as a survivor just feels boring, you can get tunnelled out of the game (even with hook protection) in less than 2 minutes, furthermore I think double tapping incentivises a play style that is actually causing killers to lose.
From what I have seen killers who walk around the map together getting double taps lose because they don't get enough pressure, usually only managing to get 2-3ish kills from tunnelling, this problem may be exacerbated as more low mobility killers are added. In games where both killers exert pressure on a greater area of the map games are much closer, usually only 2ish escapes.
Furthermore if the killers are just losing, giving a survivor endurance doesn't make them immortal, they can still be downed in 3 hits it just means they have the opportunity to run and maybe make it to a loop (still unsafe if both killers are there).
-
so the map is not coming with chapter release?
-
I made the same point about 2 months ago and literally every response was just "killers = dodge". In reality only killers who are really not confident in their ability would dodge unless it is like 4 p3 claudettes.
@SIeepWaIker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1527887#Comment_1527887
You are painting with too broad a brush, and it is intentionally misleading. Yes, there are some really great gamers out there that meet other really great gamers and become SWAT SWFs, but there are other average gamers out there that just want to play with friends and have fun. The 2nd group is not OP and often loses to altruism and other mistakes. When I play with friends, I play worse at times just chatting with them and not really paying attention to the game. Surviving with Friends is completely different than winning with other exceptional gamers.
You want to trip someone into saying swfs are a problem. I don't think they are, and there is a pretty logical reason why not to show which you continuously gloss over with your brush.
- Killers see SWATs (good group of gamers) as a problem. Going against good gamers is tough for everyone. I've gone against incredible killers and survivors.
- Devs implement SWF indicator. It does not differentiate SWAT and any other SWF.
- All killers avoid SWF because of their disdain for SWAT and want to have their 4ks easy-mode.
- The whole group of SWFs which are not SWAT (maybe like 90%) never find matches because baby killers.
- Game ceases to be played with friends and loses large player base.
- No more survivors
- Killers in empty lobbies waiting long times for 4 solo-survivors so they can get their 4ks.
Why do you just assume all killers will dodge? Yes there are good swfs but it's quite easy to tell who is going to try gen rush in the lobby if you know they are an swf.
@DisappointedUser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1527884#Comment_1527884
Who has ever said SWF is a minority? SWF depip squads are a minority. But 75% of games are some form of SWF according to BHVR themselves. So I have no idea where you go argument 2 from.
Yes a large percentage of survivors do play with friends but this kind of adds to the problem to be honest.
@thereals3vin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1527875#Comment_1527875
Lol lobby dodging is due to killers feeling slighted if they dont 4K. That is what would come from this. That doesnt fix anything, it just adds to the toxicity of this community.
No it would arguably remove toxicity from the community. Killers aren't cry babies they are players who like killing instead of surviving. If killers knew they were about to have a tough game they could change perks or put on addons (when the ability is readded).
@wisdomwielder said:
This issue could be fixed I think if they give a swf an MMR multiplier for each person in the group, so that for each person, their MMR is increased by say... x1.2 for each person.
That way, these groups will go against killers who are equipped to deal with swf.
Again i have also made a similar point but there is almost no way the devs would mess with mmr this early unfortunately.
I would be very appreciative if someone could give a good reason for why this shouldn't be added apart from "killers dodge swf".
-
@jzinsky said:
Proximity chat. End of.
Any swf group will be talking to each other, so the killer can hear that if they're close enough. You either shut up when killer gets close or you're going to be given away.
Also solos will have the choice to join in those Comms or keep quiet. It also means everyone has more than 3 gestures e.g. I can get a heal off someone without following them for 5 minutes
On paper this seems like a good idea but all teams who want and currently do genrush just to be annoying (the current problem) will just keep using discord.
-
This is a neat idea and would add to hex perks. I agree that this would be a fine addition.
-
I do agree that their primary focus at the moment should be to fix the many bugs that currently affect the game but if they stopped making new content then the game would die out.
-
@Tricks said:
KYF should be the only iteration of SWF there is otherwise you get cancer like this.
Remove SWF, keep KYF and the only people crying are the people who do this toxic crap.
I have been an advocate that swf is a leading cause of toxicity on this game since I started playing but removing it would just screw over friends who want to play the game normally and not be counts.
There is pretty much no action bhvr will take against swf because their primary focus is new content and bug fixes. The only way to make swf "balanced" would be to make a system that could track everyone in an swfs ability and match the group against a killer who would be able to beat them fairly.
But because this is bhvr there is no way this is going to happen. This is clear from how long it took them to take action on the rank system and we still bareley have anything after months. Removing swf would hurt the game more than the toxicity it causes overall.
-
@Lx_malice said:
Survivor, moreso solo, just seems very frustrating and boring compared to killer. The only thing that seems to be fun about playing survivor is being chased but after a few matches I just can't deal with bad teammates giving me a headache or just sitting on gens anymore and I go back to killer.
As a killer, however, YOU are the action. You get to be the one chasing the survivors. As a survivor only one person gets to have the killers attention at a time otherwise the best thing for you to be doing is sitting on gens, but as killer you'll always have someone to be chasing therefore you'll always be in the heat of the action throughout the game. In addition to that; every one of the 20 killers has their own unique ability(s) that you can play around with using different perks and add-ons with some of said killers being fan favorites from classic slasher films yet the majority of the player base are survivors. Not to mention we don't have to worry about dumb teammates screwing us over. As for survivors they're all just different skins with the same basic abilities as all the other survivors. Yes they can customize themselves with perks but most of them opt to run the same things every game anyways.
As for gen speeds yea I'm aware they can be a problem if you're playing a low tier killer and get a bad map or if the survivors are extremely well coordinated but pretty soon we're gonna be getting a boost to our early game to make these things easier to deal with.
Overall I just don't find survivor anywhere near as fun as killer. I can agree that survivor does have its moments where you get to lead the killer on a really long chase but I just find killer to be more fun more often. I'm just saying that I'd like to enjoy survivor as much as I do killer, but maybe there's something I'm missing? Maybe some of you can explain to me what is it that makes you prefer survivor over killer? I'm genuinely curious.
Personally I find it pretty much the other way around. Yes playing survivor is frustrating when you get forehead teammates against a kill you know you could beat if they weren't so bad. But not every game is like this, the reason why people come back to solo survivor is because if you get good teammates against a balanced killer on a fairly balanced map the game is actually pretty fun.
Now on the other hand I personally find killer way more stressful to play than survivor. Now I am not an insanely killer and I have never mained killer but I would consider myself average. When I play killer I mainly play casually (e.g- no slugging or camping and giving last guy hatch if their teammates were bad.) but because there is no match making system I constantly end up getting out with people who are way above my skill level, meaning I have to sweat my balls off just to try and get a 4k. I don't think I will play killer that much again because of Billy's nerf seeing he was the only killer I have mained in the past (not maining killer but I played him when I played killer.)
-
yeah.
The gameplay of MW is S Q U A R E
-
@DarkPit said:
So i just wrote this Discussion because i couldnt find any discussion like this before. But imo some of the Archive Challenges are WAAAAY to hard to achieve. But before you write me that they arent that hard, i dont mean every single one challenge. I mean challenges like "do 3 gens with dark sense" or " kill all 4 survivor in the basement". And the reason why i think they arent achieveable without the perfect situation is thr fact that those have to be done in one match. If you dont play in a SWF party, the dark sense challenge is gonna be very hard to do since you have to FULLY repair 3 of 5 gens.
I think most of you will agree, because i totally am a no-lifer in this game,and its very hard to archieve these challenges, and i hope the devs will at least take away the "one trial" condition.
If you have another opinion or want this to get to the devs, you can leave a response
Tbh I'd say that a lot of them are just frustrating because it takes so much time just to complete 1 challenge. Like do cooperative actions for 240 seconds. It isn't hard but it takes like 10 games to get it done.
-
I already made a suggestion like this that Killers should be able to see what survivors are in an SWF before a match and got a ######### ton of hate from people saying "KiLlErS wOuLd JuSt DoDgE" but in reality I think less people would dodge because it is a fairer match. Prepare yourself.
-
@Aveani said:
Please delete this ghastly perk. Dog ######### killers do terrible the entire game until the exit gates are powered and get at least one confirmed kill. With every hex you can tell what perk it is throughout the game, but with No One Escapes Death you don’t know the killer has it until they down someone. This extremely unfair to the survivors whom do not look for hex’s the entire game and just run around like a chicken with its head cut off. It is a complete guessing game. This particular hex spawns in such bad places that you typically do not find them until you’re in a chase of life and death. There are games where the hex will spawn in the corner of the map. Any good survivors will not sit/run to the corners of the map. The fact you are able to one shot when you’re about to lose is absurd. It’s not a hard earned win in the slightest. Giving a killer that performs horribly a chance to 4K is simply not fair. It’s potentially giving the killer with 0 devout a chance to get a gold emblem at max. The game hands the killer points for doing bad basically. Completely broken. Another concern is match making. I, a red rank, can get green ranks and even yellow ranks in my game. These people do not know the game enough to perform on a red/purple rank’s level. I have had multiple games where there is a rank 1 killer, red rank survivor, green survivor, purple survivor, and yellow survivor. Naturally they got destroyed and I ran a key so I was able to open hatch. The point is the skill rating range was terrible. This was also a game when I solo queued. Back to
NO-ED, once it’s activated It gives the killer to hit one person, hook, and then camp the body, this prevents the survivors from getting save points. A solution to this would be making this an offering. This would prevent terrible killers from abusing this perk. This could still remain a perk only if there’s a duration on how long everyone can suffer from the exposed status effect, it should be 50-60 seconds maximum. Please share your thoughts on this topic. This is similar to how killers complained about sprint burst, balanced landing, and lithe, these resulted in changes.No offence but you seem like the type of guy who would say that Adrenaline shouldn't be removed if NOED is removed.
-
@Cixon said:
Dude this forum site is so Killer based it's bad. You guys actually want to nerf a game mechanic that allows the community to grow by not allowing / penalizing players that want to play with family/friends?
This will NEVER happen because if they got rid of such a essential mechanic, the game would simply die. I'm willing to bet money that if BHVR added something to reprimand SWF the player count would sink by at least 30% and that's across all platforms.
Honestly, if it annoys you that bad, find a new hobby.😴
I completely agree with you that removing SWF would kill the game and it needs to be in the game but there is no denying that a 4 man SWF on Haddonfield is pretty much a game over from the offerings screen. I have said it multiple times that the problem with SWF is that BHVR cannot nerf it or change it in any way because it is a fundamental mechanic of the game. What makes SWF so unfun to play against in the first place is that they are all talking to each other. They all know where you are for the entire game unless you are Ghost face or something. The only good way that SWF could be made more fair is if they added an extra layer of matchmaking so that a specific SWFs players are matched with killers based on how well they work as a team and not on who the best player in their team is. This is Dbd though so this will never happen.
-
Well the problem with SWF that makes it too strong is that it allows the survivors to pretty much constantly know where the killer is unless it is a GF or other stealth killer. There isn't really a way to balance swf as such because there isn't really anything to balance, you can't stop them from playing in a voice call. An idea I had to try and make sure that every game is fair swf or not is that all players who play in an SWF group are tracked on how well they work together so that they can be matched with killers of their group skill level. Unfortunately this is BHVR so they will never add this so I guess I just have to hope that what ever the new matchmaking system they are adding will match SWF appropriately.
-
@Sadsnacks said:
Almost every match I've had against red and purple rank players where I'm doing well ends with them abandoning gens and stealth searching for keys in chests and they always find either a dull or skeleton key, even without the plunder perk or any special perks that would increase their chances of finding one.
Why does a dull or skeleton key always spawn in these matches?
They shouldn't spawn in chests at all. You don't see ebony moris randomly spawning in the match for killers to use.
I haven't found a key in a chest in like a month. I disagree that they are common but it might be a good idea if skeleton keys were removed(From chests) and dull keys were changed to have an ability attached(e.g- seeing killer aura) instead of being able to open the hatch. Obviously they would be able to open hatch with an addon though.
-
@GreenPufferFish said:
swf toxic is insanly exagrated
I never exaggerated, killers should just know this.
-
@GreenPufferFish said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1427647#Comment_1427647
because everyone would be lobby doging impossible to get a game as swf and only about 5% of swf are toxic most just wanna play with freinds
People wouldn't need to dodge because they could put on offerings(e.g- any map offering other than Haddonfield)/perks or addons that would allow them to have a chance against any SWF. Only killers who were actually that doubtful in their ability with this information would dodge and they would be much fewer than now. Also yes people want to play with friends and that is fine but people also want to play killer without having to rapidly check every profile at the beginning of the round.
-
@GreenPufferFish said:
i just read the title no
Why not? It would make the game way less stressful to play as killer.
-
Well the 10 survivors 2 killers GM has been throught of for year by now and still hasn't been added but the maps being combined is pretty much a statement to BHVR not to make this. I feel like they should add the 10v2 but I don't think they will.
-
@Papabear3g said:
I literally just made an account to post this and give some feedback. I'll just number the different ideas and suggestions to make it simpler.
1.) Play as Killer System - I understand some people only want to play as a killer and it is extremely convenient to specifically look for matches as a killer; although this is overall bad for the game. The main reason for this is because of the matching times as a killer, and it gives me less incentive to play as one (even though I really want to). Waiting 5-15 minutes to play as a Killer is ridiculous and what I think you guys should do is follow the same system as Friday the 13th(RIP). There is no "play as killer/survivor" option, but instead a preference option on what you prefer to play as and have everyone match into the lobby and be randomly picked to be the killer(in a random order where everyone will eventually get to play as killer if they stay in the server.)
2.) Steam Workshop - This has been said a good number of times I'm sure, but I'll say it once again... adding a workshop to your game will literally be a game changer and add a whole lot more fun and longevity to your game. I understand that you plan to release more DLC's and make your money off that and I completely understand, but the least you guys can do is allow the modding of graphics(lighting,shadows,textures), sound effects, (such as screams, menu music, chase music, all this will allow us to customize our experiences exactly how we want to and make the game a whole lot more scary), and last but not least community created maps. Allowing the players to add content to your game would take a lot of pressure off you guys and make it more fun for us as well.
3.) Graphic Settings - Add more graphic options for everyone, to have a few options from LOW - ULTRA is a bit disappointing especially for a PC game released not too long ago and still being updated. It gives me and others the impression that you guys don't really care about optimization and the fact that you haven't added any graphic options in FOUR YEARS just makes it worse.
I've had this game since release, played for a few months, and came back just recently to find out the things I've hoped they would add are still not implemented into the game. I don't have enough knowledge to give any feedback about balancing the game so I just talked about some essentials. If a developer reads this please consider these and let us know your thoughts on it.
I think #1 is a decent idea. #2 could be fun but I feel like it would just get full of maps that are 3 pallets and 7 generators all suck inside of each other but modding graphics would ruin the game and it should never be added. It would allow people to cheat by changing lighting so that hiding would be pretty much impossible and if they added custom textures that would lead to people cheating and exploiting custom textures. #3 will hopefully be addressed by the graphical update they are bringing later this year.
-
Yeah this a decent idea. I wouldn't be afraid to throw the iridescent speed limiter into this system if that makes it out of the PTB unchanged.
-
@neocore said:
i can second this, im a fairly good surv and repeatedly get ranked against low rank killers and its so horrible to only be doing good because the killer doesn't know how to play well yet. and the swf ranking working on a cumulative score isn't fair, tbh, because a team of rank 5 survs will run circles around a rank 20, which is what happened to me just now.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SWSUMU7FYMBP/img-20200707-150226.jpg
(i only got that kill due to that player messing up and ph's final judgement, otherwise i wouldn't have got any at all. i got two hooks and they were all the same dude.)
when me and my surv team play, we consistently get matched against 20 - 15 killers. it's not fun for us, it's not fun for them. it really needs sorting out before cross play is a thing, because cross play and the differences of play and ability between console and pc are going to make it MUCH worse.
I only play surv atm because I can only imagine the stress that playing killer right now would give you, it's still pretty bad. I keep getting baby team mates with under 20 hours and only 2-3 perks. I have 300 hours. Why does this happen?