Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too
The update, sure, needs tweaks. But why not implement a version with reduced numbers that basically only have impact in specific cases?
6 hooks too many to block gens? Depends on the killer, but reduce it to 4 so that at least someone else needs to be hooked first.
25% being too much of a boost? Drop it to 10%. Barely will have an impact, but it will give survivors some hope of finishing 4 gens if someone dies early.
Anti-slug can be implemented as is, Twins needs a rework anyway. If it needs tweaks, then do so later. Undying was up for 5 months before it got tweaked. Ghoul has been in an annoying state for forever too. Killers can deal with 3 months of anti-slug potentially being a bit too punishing
Keep the basekit bbq and 5% permanent regression bonus per unique survivor hooked too.
THEN tweak the rest around it. Its a baseline that would just make games more than just singularity basically camping with biopods, or a trickster dropping chase because main event is ready and the basekit BT is just a minor obstacle.
But fully delaying it for another 3 months? No. Sorry, Done. I already waited over a year to finally hear an update about a viable basekit anti-slug and some tweaks to anti-tunnel. I've waited 6 months since the emergency abandon feature. If I need to wait for another 3 months, thats going to be 3 months playing something else.
Comments
tunneling isnt toxic behaviour, its the killer doing their job. if bully squads were doing their job (gens) i wouldnt have an issue with that either because its part of the game. killers shouldnt be required to run slow down perks but look at how many do…. part of the game
Both tunneling and bullying are choices. Doing gens isn't optional. Even the bully squad will have to do gens if they want to leave. I've never seen a squad that just let's themselves be killed once they're done terrorizing the killer because they don't like gens. Strong loops and pallets are also built into the game. You're comparing a choice you are making to things that are an inherent part of the game's design. Tunneling and bullying are choices that can help you win but that make other players miserable, but one is much more common than the other.
You can make the same argument for bully squads. Don't like being bullied? Should have brought Franklin's, Awakened Awareness, Two Can Play/Lightborn, Mad Grit, Agitation. Or maybe you should just "git gud." You expect others to loop amazingly but can YOU counter being tunneled? Can you loop the killer for 3-5 gens and also escape the match? You've said you tunnel cause you can't manage otherwise, but you expect other people to be good enough to counter it. Bit of a double standard.
As for slugging, I said they don't mind losing in fair and balanced matches. I didn't say they don't mind losing to cheese tactics. I am one of those people saying survivors should have a comeback chance. There's no reason to leave people on the ground for multiple minutes. There's also situations where the killer hovers over you and keeps your teammates away until you die. That should not be happening.
you ever hear the phrase "false equivalency"? if not this is pretty much the perfect example of it.
And yes, i agree. if you are repeatedly getting tunneled out then your mmr should drop. drop to a point where the comp kid tunneling mindset is no longer there. There is a point in MMR where the fun layers reside. They meme, have personality, and dont constantly rage and insult like high mmr.
now for the false equivalncy. Tunneling is an issue because it targets one player to remove them from the match ASAP. body blocking does not remove you from the match….it puts someone else at risk of being removed from the match. taking a hit via bodyblocking is an altruistic action that harms one player but benefits another player and is often a response to tunneling. Everytime i body-blocked in this game its to defend against a tunneler. Tunneling is a selfish action that harms everyone's gameplay and enjoyment , with the exception of you (the tunneler). Now im sure your next argument is along the lines of "mememe i guess im just supposed to sit there and be afk since dieing isnt fun for the survivor mememememe". no. thats not what im saying. Losing, even getting absolutley decimated can be fun. Tunneling is not. The ONLY point tunneling is seen as good for the survivor is when they get to tbag at the exit gate to spite you as a final "haha" at your failure to ruin their gameplay. but that is not fun. that is toxicity born out of your toxic gameplay. winning, despite what tunnelers believe, is not a requirement of fun.
Again. Body blocking and tunneling are not equivelent. those other actions you stated..DOES NOT remove someone from the game. Tunneling does and does so by targeting one person. It is toxic.
XP. Every time, I will play for XP. Grind out the Rift faster and earn Iris quicker.
Can't really blame people when they're not forced to. You also have to consider the amount of people that do play both but keep their alliances with one side (i.e. Killer/Survivor is so hard and when I play the other side it's so easy). The most important thing you can do is play the game however your heart desires, but drop any of that baggage once you leave the game and compare your experience with the experiences of others to see the bigger picture. They will always fill in any gaps you're missing.
Eh. I'm done with the Rift by a month in. XP giving shards is appealing though. Give me more of those, faster, and I'll suffer more. I've got plenty to unlock still.
The Rift honestly has ugly cosmetics 9 times out of 10 these days (in my opinion), but there's usually something I want in there so it does help. But it's mostly the stuff in the shops for me too.
im not sure what bully squads you have against but in my experience bully squads spend all match trying to make the killer quit, they dont do gens at all. and with the hatch, doing gens is optional as many have clearly shown they can hide all match not touching a gen and still escape. survivors CHOOSE to loop pallets. they can lose line of sight, hide, make use of the whole map but its not optimal to do so and will result in them losing. thats why people loop. killers can CHOOSE to spread hooks but its not optimal and often means the killer ends up losing thats why they tunnel. elimination is built into the game just like pallets are. survivors use pallets as efficiently as they can, killers eliminate is efficiently as they can. there reall is no difference.
The argument to bring perks to counter bully squads doesnt apply to killer because killer only has 4 perk slot. its impossible to cover everything with only 4 perks. survivor on the other hand, they are a team. they have 16 perks between them with many perks that benefit everyone not just themselves.
survivors have plenty of 2nd chances throughout the match i really dont think giving them yet another chance to come back after they have all been downed is the way to go. at some point people have to accept the loss. if survivors misplay and end up getting themselves slugged in a group together no way should they have yet another 2nd chance. its like saying if all survivors perform so badly in chase they all get themselves hooked then expect a way to come back, being left on the ground and being left on hook is the same. Both disable to survivor from playing the match, both not fun experience, slugging is longer but it also means its more time for other survivors to do gens.
my apparent double standard is due to the drastic differences between my killer and survivor matches. as killer im going against sweaty swf team and a regular basis so i have to use everything in my arsenal to win as do they. as survivor im solo so it is harder to counter tunneling especially when people dont do gens or just mess about in the corner of the map but i can counter it with a good team and even with bad team mates sometimes. not always counterable due to the team or my own skill but i counter it enough to maintain a 45% escape rate, tunneling requires team effort to counter effectively.
i know many people have said shouldnt need a team to counter tunneling because some people go in solo but if that was the case then swf would demolish killer. thats the main issue i have seen, swf v solo. they are like 2 different game modes. v solo tunneling isnt needed so much because you can always rely on poor team play and people that just do totems or going for adept. this helps by the killer time to play fair. SWF is totally different. they have good team play, coms, synergy with perks….thats when tunneling is needed, its not a choice its a must. how do i know i dont know if its a swf squad or solo team from the start so i assume its SWF and i play to that. sorry solo people but i didnt know your not swf untill it was too late.
I don't DC so they're gonna have to do the gens or die. Those are the options. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hide and rat for hatch the entire match.
I get cordinated teams but I can't remember the last time I saw a true bully squad. Or maybe I just don't notice because I run Lightborn and Iron Grasp and I watch out for hook denials. So yeah, you can bring perks to counter them. Survivors have four perks. Almost no team except upper MMR cordinates perks. I play in parties and not a single person has ever done that. And most people are probably solo. You're saying your solo but you're talking like everyone is skilled SWF.
Whether SWF would demolish killer remains to be seen. There are a lot of people just in this forum with 80%-90% KRs. I've ever seen survivor stats anywhere near that.
If you're going against sweaty, cordinated teams consistently then you're higher MMR and that doesn't mesh with you saying you struggle to be at 60%. Even with the killers I have 70%+ KRs on the sweaty SWFs are still the minority. So what is your KR?
they die eventually yes but the bully squad dont care at that point, they had their fun. i have seen it many times. i have also see hiding for the hatch very often as have others, thats why they were doing anti hiding afk crows. it was becoming common place in my killer and survivor matches they would hide for up to an hour in some cases. theres a reason the anti hidding was on the agenda.
i didnt say i struggle to be 60%, i said i struggle to get 60% if i dont tunnel. with tunneling i maintain 60 to 70% kill rate v sweaty swf on a regular basis. the matches are pretty even, fun and balanced. without tunneling, my kill rate will plummet. the only exception is when i play myers, my kill rate is between 80 to 90% and had somthing like 100+ win streaks but thats due to tombstone being op which is why they are reworking myers. no myers and no tunneling = big drop in kill rate, swf demolishing me and very unbalanced matches. there is no denying swf and solo are very different, killers need to be strong enough to handle swf teams. the result is soloq suffers because they dont have the advantage swf teams have. weaken killers so soloq can deal with it (by nerfing tunneling and slugging) sounds ideal but the result will be swf will be way too op.
A call this made up nonsense. If a killer is "hard tunneling." and "face camping"(which is technically been removed years ago), it's a free gen rush wirh anything past a 1K being the survivors fault.
Whilst I'm still enjoying the game, I respect anyone that walks away when they're not having a good time.
Enjoy your 30min lobby wait. Maybe they bringt in killer bots. Fun PvE.
I have played pretty much every single year. And we've had survivor shortages too. Like right now, the survivor defecit is only growing. People are done being tunnelled and slugged. During the killer shortage, it was mainly due to toolboxes and generator perks not being adjusted and instaheals being a thing at the same time.
"Killers got the short end of the stick literally every patch for years"
Lie more. Survivors have been objectively, OBJECTIVELY, the most nerfed since release. They have been punished for doing their job of surviving and finishing gens. You do realize that generators used to take 60 seconds way, way back right? And that window blockers didnt exist, and all those boarded up windows you see today? Used to be viable vaulting spots too. All permanently blocked because survivors were surviving too well.
Yeah, a lot of killers do need buffs, but a lot of players need an MMR reset when anti-tunnel and anti-slug is made basekit too. A lot of players I face simply dont even know how to hook. And nowadays, survivors I face also dont know how to deal with a good hook. Taking 5 seconds longer to put a survivor on a hook next to a 90% gen is something I rarely see these days when I play survivor, because they rather go for the shiny white hook to reduce that gen for 15% and block it with DMS, which is only good if you play a mobility killer.
"Definetly not the part where you can crawl and recover at the same time."
Then just hook the survivor. Slugging shouldnt give the killer the same pressure as hooking. It doesnt make sense to punish survivors as if you hooked a survivor without hooking.
Crawling and recovering at the same time should be bare minimum in the current meta. Slugging is boring, slugging has too much pressure. Crawling and recovering forced the killer to choose whether or not its worth to slug. Right now, killers dont have to choose. They can just slug.
If you came back after 20 seconds, you are going to find them within 20 meters of where you left them. Shack is 10 meters wide for reference. It's not that hard. You just walk around in the general area and listen for sound.
And yet you admit to tunneling because you aren't able to accept the loss. Maybe you should take your own advice.
genrushing no longer guarantees a 1k. All the killer needs is Dead Lock to basically guarantee a kill even today. Survivors need at least 180 seconds to finish 3 gens+2 gens basekit. And a kill can be reached in less than 140 seconds on hook. That is assuming survivors can communicate.
In fact, facecamping actually benefits certain killers like Bubba and Trickster, because they can effectively bypass the basekit BT anyway, so a survivor triggering the unhook makes that 140 seconds only shorter.
So, thats a 40 second defecit, 60 if you include gates. Dead Lock turns that into a 2 minute deficit easily.
Your opinion is not the truth and mine is not a lie. From when I startet playing (2016) until I quit (2021). I followed all the devs streams, major youtuber and read all the patch notes. Killer got 1 step forward and 2 steps back EVERY patch for years. I came back because a friend told me it got better, but most of the core issues are still there. The killer shortage had been denied, but survivor shortage is all of a sudden an important topic. Double standards anybody?
the difference is killers dont get half as much 2nd chances as survivors do. the hatch for instance, its not the killer that wants to avoid kills and wait for hatch, thats survivors. as previously said, i can take the loss. when all gens are done i acknowledge game over, survivors won. when all are down/hooked survivors should acknowledge game over, killer won.
Basically everything killers have is second chance, but nobody cares.
such as? the only real 2nd chance the killer has is NOED.
Most people aren't so ice cold that they'll just do gens while their teammate dies on their first hook or gets targeted the whole match.
Oh right, just hook survivor as Oni to always end my power, very effective…
Which wastes my time even more, which is not really good when my slugging is under time limit.
All you need to do is fix full slugging, which 90 seconds to unlock unbreakable does more than enough, rest is simply overkill.
Slugging should be an option for the killer, it just shouldn't be primary tactic. Those changes made slugging kinda impossible in general.
It should definetly be trimmed unless you want to remove all situations where killer needs to slug, but good luck with that….
Facecampimg does not exist anymore(!!!).
The comment about The Twins was all I really needed to see to disregard this post. None of these changes should be considered until they can be reworked healthily so as to not invalidate a Killer (hence why they will be re-introduced in future PTBs). Sorry, but that's just not be an acceptable attitude towards balance.
What do you mean? Killers have every comeback mechanic in the world, from windows getting blocked, pallets being destroyed, Killers getting bloodlust. Or of course they can resort to those strategies like tunneling, camping, and slugging. The number of times I've seen Killers turn the match around from a bad start is through the roof. And as a last resort, there are plenty of endgame perks that have little to no counters.
Survivors, on the other hand, have very little in the way of comeback mechanics. Those perks that are labeled as "anti-tunnel" perks are really only "delaying the inevitable" perks.
thats because survivors are not supposed to be able to run forever. survivors start the match at their strongest, the killer is weakest at the start. survivors have a full team, full set of pallets, can spread out to do more gens. as the match progresses this slowly shifts to killer being strongest at the end and survivors weak at the end after they use pallets and reduce the amount of gens that need to be done. thats the base of the game, hardly 2nd chances for killers to get kills after failing. keep giving survivors chance after chance and they will start the match strong and will not get weaker as the match progresses.
2nd chances are things that give the player another chance after failing, breaking pallets and chasing long enough for bloodlust or survivors vaulting same vault so it blocks isnt the killer failing.
1.survivors can fail to do gens and still escape via hatch.
2 they can fail to find hatch first and still escape if they have a key.
3. survivors can fail a chase and get injured then heal.
4. survivors can fail in 2 chases get hooked/downed and still get saved after failing the chases.
5. now they want another 2nd chance after failing chase by recovering themselves from being downed.
when can the killer get a kill without doing anything after failing? they dont have a team to protect gens for them or to chase for them, the killer has to do everything, survivors wont die on their own while i sit back and do nothing. but if i have a good team as survivor it is possible for me to sit back and do nothing then escape.
you say these anti tunneling perks only delay the inevitable, i dont run any anti tunnel perks or anti slug and im solo. i go in with a gen build. this month so far out of over 70 matches my escape rate is 52%. im by no means an amazing survivor but i do play a fair amount of survivor and killer and i seriously dont see the issue. the only issue i see is the god awful team mates i get. if i had a good team constantly maybe my escape rate would be higher. sorry but i have to call skill issue in many cases that people fail against a tunneling/slugging killer. it is strange that a lot of people complaining about these tactics actually have an escape rate of around 40% atleast which is the target rate for survivor. if these tactics were effecting escape rates negatively and making killers over 60% kill rate fair enough but they dont.
Ahem.. What do you think some killer players do as soon as the final gen pops?
The amount of times I have seen, or ended up in situations like this:
Now, this example is from the anniversary event, where I played with @HeroLives, but the point still stands. Killers will absolutely facecamp you.
I agree they should implement something sooner rather then later and if that something under delivers then buff it in the future.
I disagree with all the buffs and nerfs and systems required for their proposal. It's all just too complex. I think it could be solved much easier. Survivors get 5% haste buff off the hook until someone else is hooked. On unhook there is no longer a notification for the killer.
After 90 seconds of slug time, survivors can lift themselves up from slug for the rest of the match.
That's it. Let's try that for a bit and see what new strategies emerge.
thats endgame… there are no rules there its gtfo or try and secure a kill at all costs… if anti face camp was still active the killer might aswel be removed from the match after the 5th gen is completed…
its a generational thing considering the age of the game, but facecamping existed because standing that close blocked the unhooked prompt. Facecamping is no more because survivors can unhook from multiple sides. Further nerfing this method is the removal of hook grabs.
Think about it for a moment and see that what the killer is doing here is limiting their field of view. It would be better for them to stand back a few steps and stalk any survivor that comes to help. More than likely that Myers is close to T3.
What happens the Devs take another approach than what was in the PTB? Would you be happy if they gave you the PTB version just to rip it from you hands next patch? Historically speaking, even if the replacement was better, that would cause more outrage than just taking the time to work on it some more.
DBD rewards elimination for killers the same way it rewards resource use for survivors. Using either isn’t a character flaw; it’s a gameplan.
Yes: tunneling is a tool — just like survivors have their tools and toys.
Facecamping was when killer could block the unhook. Their hitbox blocked it. They could go afk and still no unhook possible. That was removed.
Co-sign this. A lot of teams don’t realize how important early time is. Off spawn you’re strong: four healthy, full items, perks @ no cooldown, every pallet, full map control. While I rotate or take a chase, your gen clock is ticking — time is the currency in DBD. “Killer comebacks” aren’t magic buttons, they’re time trades: I pay time, you make progress. If you waste early (hide & vibe, totems, goofing off), you’ll need all the safety nets later and then complain about pressure tools. At the start you have EVERYTHING, the whole map. It’s normal the killer is weak early. Don’t call that a “bad start” or a “comeback” — that’s just the nature of the game once players aren’t giving insta-downs.
The start is survivor-favoured — use it, and you’ll need fewer miracles. Tunneling/slugging are tools, not a morality play, and definitely not a one-button win. Learn the counters. And yup, runningguy is right: you already have plenty of safety nets and second chances, but it’s never, never, never enough. And “endgame perks with no counters?” … ehwm, ouuufh, big ouf — may I laugh now?
Sure. But just so I'm clear...
And then afterwards, you'll tell me that I lost because I didn't run any of those perks, right?
…or Unbreakable, sabo, “insta” heals — yada yada — all the good “I played bad → I still get away” stuff survivors can stack. By “white glow” I mean anything that gives Endurance — FTP → Soul Guard, MFT, DH, WGLF, the whole kit.
The script goes: “Oh, he misplayed, he’s down—” white flash.
“Okay, now?” He’s bad again, didn’t use camera— mid-chase insta-heal.
“Alright, now for real—” nope: down in a pallet, teammate there, FTP hits, and I’ve got Soul Guard ready.
fun and fair, right? white glow at it finest : (pov a friend, little german streamer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XhG5vfV_hYHot take: this thread is mostly role tribalism + negativity bias….
Ten smooth matches vanish behind one miserable one, and the loudest outrage sets the agenda.
Let’s be honest about extremes:
Both would call that “balance” because it serves them. You can’t design for those edges and keep the game healthy.
What would actually move the needle:
Design for the middle 80%. Fix SWF-Solo, punish griefing, expose data. Not the volume of complaints matters… the content does.
Strange then, that many years later they added a literal "Anti FACE Camp" mechanic. That people have been very, very specific since it's inception that it is designed specifically and only to combat face camping, and literally no other purpose.
I won't deny that the definition of "face" camping has shifted over the years, from what you describe by denying the only single unhook spot, to simply standing nose to nose with the survivor (or hitting on hook). But you can still hit people on hook for the full duration and their only option is to jump off hook into getting immediately hit right now, on live.
Than call it something else. "Shifting the definition" is like moving the goal post.
"We want A removed."
"Ok, we removed A."
"We want A removed."
"We already removed A."
"No, A has changed, so we want it removed, again."
I don't think any of us call Mori's something different just because they don't function the same as they used to.
"I'm getting mori'd" used to mean you got downed. Then it meant you got tunneled off of first hook. Now? Doesn't really mean anything.
Just a weird hill to die on.
Camping while standing in the person on hook's face is pretty self explanatory.
I've always called "standing at the hook watching someone die" a "giant waste of the killer's time", but that hasn't stuck.
Semantics is a pretty terrible argument. Especially since you're just going with "if I go back 7 years, I can define the problem out of existence and ignore any current or relevant actions". It's, at minimum, tone deaf, and feels like a disingenuous attempt to derail the conversation.
Nope. You just keep sticking to your combat term and move the goal post. And "face camping" has always been a stupid strategy unless, the survivors played STUPID. If a killer is camping the hook, just punch gens. Any camper getting more than 1K, is bad plays by the survivors. Stop blaming killer,.
Realistically, you could get a 2K quite consistently, possibly more if the Survivors didn't immediately realize it was happening.
Corrupt, Deadlock, NWO and NOED guaranteed two kills, with a possibility of three.
People still say "gen rush" even though it goes back to when BNPs were crazy strong. They've been nerfed, gen completion times went up, and teams with full gen builds are rare. Yet I still hear this term daily. The terminology stays but the definitions change.
Lucky, I don't play with syringes either. So literally the only thing I would have to change is Soul Guard, which shouldn't make much difference. I only get Soul Guard value in 1 out of what...50 matches?
If hard tunneling and bully SWFs are equivalent things, then why aren’t we having QoL changes to nerf bully SWFs?
Why is the demands for game changes ALWAYS about how the game should be less frustrating for survivors, but NEVER about how the game should be less frustrating for killers?
Because tunneling is incredibly common and genuine bully squads aren't. People toss the term around the same way they do with "gen rushing." SWF with skills aren't a bully squad. I can't remember the last time I even saw an actual bully squad. Yet I was tunneled yesterday. And the day before that. And the day before that.
Personally, I would be ok with any changes that move the game in a better direction. If that means, exhaustion perks have to go, or any other changes to balance the game, so be it.
I must acknowledge, that I might be alone in this sentiment. There would be many that would complain. This is where the devs have to do what's right for the game regardless of what any one person says.
That doesn't make sense. Bully squads are even more unacceptable than tunneling, because they literally revolve their gameplay around ruining the fun of the other side.
Tunneling is an actual game strategy that can help killers win games, so there is an actual valid reason for killers to tunnel.
There are zero valid reasons for bully squads to exist.