Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too
The update, sure, needs tweaks. But why not implement a version with reduced numbers that basically only have impact in specific cases?
6 hooks too many to block gens? Depends on the killer, but reduce it to 4 so that at least someone else needs to be hooked first.
25% being too much of a boost? Drop it to 10%. Barely will have an impact, but it will give survivors some hope of finishing 4 gens if someone dies early.
Anti-slug can be implemented as is, Twins needs a rework anyway. If it needs tweaks, then do so later. Undying was up for 5 months before it got tweaked. Ghoul has been in an annoying state for forever too. Killers can deal with 3 months of anti-slug potentially being a bit too punishing
Keep the basekit bbq and 5% permanent regression bonus per unique survivor hooked too.
THEN tweak the rest around it. Its a baseline that would just make games more than just singularity basically camping with biopods, or a trickster dropping chase because main event is ready and the basekit BT is just a minor obstacle.
But fully delaying it for another 3 months? No. Sorry, Done. I already waited over a year to finally hear an update about a viable basekit anti-slug and some tweaks to anti-tunnel. I've waited 6 months since the emergency abandon feature. If I need to wait for another 3 months, thats going to be 3 months playing something else.
Comments
You are lumping everything together under the “Survivor Rulebook” meme, and that is exactly why these conversations go nowhere. People complaining about perks, killers, or playstyles is just normal salt. That happens in every competitive game. But tunneling is not the same as “people don’t like Knight” or “people complain about proxy camping.”
The reason tunneling gets singled out so often is because it does something no other strategy does: it removes one person from the game entirely within minutes. Survivors might dislike facing certain killers or perks, but at least they are still playing. Tunneling denies that completely. That is why it is talked about as toxic far more than anything else.
Nobody is asking you to play with handicaps or to deliberately gimp yourself. Nobody is saying you cannot use high-tier killers, strong perks, or good strategies. What people are asking is for killers to acknowledge that going out of your way to tunnel someone out early is the one “optimal” strategy that consistently ruins matches and drives people away from the game.
So no, this is not about some imaginary Survivor Rulebook. It is about one specific strategy that has outsized negative impact compared to anything else survivors can complain about. You can play strong, play to win, and still avoid tunneling. That is not a handicap. It is simply choosing to play in a way that keeps the match engaging for everyone instead of turning it into a lopsided stomp.
Does a survivor typing “GG EZ” remove you from the game and stop you from playing the way tunneling does? No, it doesn’t. And if it bothers you, there is literally a setting to hide endgame chat.
Does a survivor saying you shouldn’t play high-tier killers prevent you from playing the match like tunneling? No, it doesn’t. Again, that is solved with the hide chat button.
Does someone saying Knight is annoying actually stop you from playing a match like tunneling? No, it doesn’t. Once more, that can be solved by hiding endgame chat.
Does being called a tryhard or baby killer prevent you from playing the game like tunneling does to survivors? No, it doesn’t. Yet again, solved with a single button press.
NOTHING a survivor can do, outside of cheating, can prematurely remove the killers ability to play the game.
In the past year, despite playing at very high MMR, I have maybe had two or three people say “GG EZ.” And in those rare cases, the other survivors defended me because they enjoyed the match..and I won those matches. The vast majority of my survivor interactions are positive. In fact, I find most survivors match the energy you put into the game. A small gesture like staring at a dropped pallet after someone misses a save is enough to get people laughing and creates positivity in postgame chat.
From my experience, most survivors are just goofy and fun. It is interesting that the people who constantly defend toxic playstyles also seem to be the ones who repeatedly encounter “toxic survivors.” Maybe that correlation says more about how they play than about the community itself.
Your frustration and anger towards toxicity is justified, your behavior is not. General rule of thumb for life not just DBD.
So stop using the toxicity of others to justify your own.
I’ve been lurking cause new killer release and I’ve advocated for survivors in the past but I’m just commenting here again after literal months to let you know that other person is off the rails. Tunneling is hardly “toxic” and anyone trying to push it as such should really have their opinion disregarded.
Wow. You genuinely have zero consideration for the feelings or perspective of others. You can't even begin to imagine the perspective of someone who finds some aspect of DbD more annoying than tunneling. You act as though your subjective experience of Dead by Daylight is objectively correct.
Here's some more things you learn from being non-binary: You are not obligated to put your trust in people who have invariably betrayed that trust. You are not bound by rules if you never agreed to them, nor if the agreement was made under duress.You do not have a social contract with someone or something that doesn't have your best interests in mind. And you are not obligated to show kindness to people who don't value kindness.
I genuinely feel bad for anyone who has to deal with you in real life.
I believe you. I've only ever seen this level of self-righteousness come from some deeply unsavory places.
That's what will always make asymms impossible to balance. Killer wants to maintain their status as the power role, but generally without consequence. Winning is always at the top of the stack. There are a lot of synonyms for that like "feared" or "respected" but it all boils down to the same thing. Meanwhile, Survivor prioritizes participation and play. They want the freedom to run around and complete objectives, whether they're side or main, and to feel like their time was valuable and it meant something.
Trying to meet in the middle is a tug of war I think.
It's the psychological impact. It's why you'll see bagging at the gates compared to tunneling time and time again. The gameplay element is moot in the argument as long as the anguish is present.
Not that I think it's a totally fair argument, but y'know.
More with the personal attacks 🙄
The irony here is that you accuse me of having “zero consideration for the perspective of others,” while defending a playstyle that literally denies others the ability to participate in the game. Tunneling is not just “another annoyance” like a perk, a killer power, or a map tile. It is the one strategy that completely removes someone from the match within minutes. That is not subjective. It is a measurable difference in how the match plays out.
I am also aware that my opinion towards tunneling IS subjective. Im not saying its not. However, my opinion is shared with a majority of players. If the majority of anything has an opinion, people usually side with that majority as it serves the best interest of the majority. That's not a me thing…thats just life lol. Literally the reason for votes…to see the majority opinion and act on it.
You are right that people do not owe blind trust, but multiplayer games do rely on a social contract. The unspoken agreement is simple: everyone in the lobby gets the chance to actually play. That is the baseline expectation in any interactive experience. If your approach to the game is “I am not obligated to care about anyone else’s experience,” then you are proving my point about selfishness driving toxicity.
And let us be clear. This is not about kindness, nor about forcing people to play “nice.” This is about match health. Survivors make up four out of five slots in every game. If a large portion of them decide they are done putting up with tunneling, the game dies. That is not an opinion. It is math. The OP is evidence of that as they are leaving the game for this reason.
"And you are not obligated to show kindness to people who don't value kindness." Completely agree, so when you experience toxicity and hate because of YOUR behavior, then feel flustered about it…remember your own philosophy. According to your logic because of your personal attacks towards me, I should be warranted to attack you personally. But I'm not gonna…because I'm a grown up. Remember the personal attacks started with you. Not me. So use that knowledge to think about your quote and the irony of you saying it.
You can disagree with me, but resorting to personal jabs like “I feel bad for anyone who has to deal with you in real life” shows you are arguing from spite rather than from logic. If the only way to defend tunneling is to attack people personally instead of addressing the actual point, maybe that says more about the weakness of the defense than about me.
As for your bit about your gender-identity. You don't my identity, my sexuality, my anything, and I plan to keep it that way because it is COMPLETLEY irrelevant to the discussion. And if you make more personal attacks because of me hiding my personal information…then that is a reflection of your hate. Anything about me is based solely off your presumptions and negative emotions directed at me. And what you learned from being non-binary…is something every human ever learns regardless of demographic.
The fact that me essentially arguing "be good and fair to one another and strive for mutual enjoyment" is met by your personal attacks is crazy lol.
Look, I get it. You demand the respect that you refuse to show to anybody else. And if you're not gonna get it through your thick skull that yes, "Cooperation goes both ways" applies to you as well, then you're wasting your time.
I treat Survivors the way I'd like to be treated, and if that makes you mad, well, that's too freaking bad. Your Rulebook can go to hell.
Oh you're CRASHING out crashing out now. Straight up stopped debating respectfully and went full personal. Very adult of you.
if you call me a poopy head next then you're not invited to my birthday party harumph! 😡
Look. If you cannot have a respectful discussion with logic and not emotion. Then were done here. I would highly suggest therapy based on the repeated personal attacks and overall viewpoint on the world and others. CBT, DBT, ACT, or interpersonal therapy are all good options for you and for anyone for that matter.
"Oh, look how mad you are, simply because I chose to believe a bad, dumb, wrong thing on purpose!"
You are not the first person to try and pathologize me simply for having a bit of self-respect, and you will not be the last.
Why would I respect someone who stubbornly refuses to listen to reason? Why would I respect someone that has no consideration for the feelings or plights of others? Those are not respectable qualities.
"Why would I respect someone who stubbornly refuses to listen to reason? Why would I respect someone that has no consideration for the feelings or plights of others? Those are not respectable qualities."
The hypocrisy in this statement. Especially since you're personally attacking me because my argument is in favor of the majority while yours is in consideration for you alone.
"Why would I respect someone who stubbornly refuses to listen to reason?"
You made me repeat myself like a dozen times in this discussion….so who refuses to listen?
"You are not the first person to try and pathologize me simply for having a bit of self-respect, and you will not be the last."
If this is a regular occurrence for you then you should take some time for introspective thinking. What about your behavior causes this to be so regular? If i had to guess you've developed a highly defensive maladaptive coping mechanism due to disapproval and negativity in your life. CBT will help with that. Therapy is not about affirmation. It is about the identification of maladaptive thoughts and behaviors.. and challenging them to improve yourself. The purpose of therapy is to help people better understand themselves, manage their emotions, and develop healthier ways of thinking and relating to others so they can live more balanced and fulfilling lives. At its core, it is about growth, healing, and building the skills needed to navigate life effectively. I would recommend heavily that you consider perusing it, namely CBT. Long term studies show that CBT is just as effective, if not better than typical SSRIs.
Babes it’s time to log off. I promise tunneling in dbd is not this deep
You're wasting your energy at this point. For some players, tunnelling is so ingrained (or if they've tunnelled themselves into an MMR bracket that they don't belong in, they truly see it as necessary to compete at that level) that asking them not to is akin, in their mind, to asking them to lose every game.
Here's one more thing you learn from being non-binary (Hopefully the last I'll need to share): Just because you're a minority in the population doesn't mean you aren't entitled to the same dignity, respect and empathy as everyone else. It's not okay for things to be unfair for one group simply because another has a numbers advantage over them.
And here's some fun facts about being trans/non-binary: It was treated as a disease by the field of psychiatry until fairly recently. Whether or not a trans woman was diagnosed or allowed to take HRT was based on how attractive the doctors thought they were. Trans men were infantilized and seen as unable to make their own decisions. Non-binary people were dismissed altogether.
Anyone who's marginalized, anyone who doesn't quite fit in the uniform mold of society, has been pathologized and treated as a problem to be solved by society, because of people like you.
People with some sort of gripe, who are desperate to find someone else to blame instead of doing something about it. People who feel owed power and control, and see the absence of that power and control as a humiliating insult. People who are unhappy, but also deeply unwilling to investigate why or change anything about themselves or their lifestyle.
I don't say this to claim that you're a bigot, by the way; your behavior simply follows a similar pattern.
Yeah in general. debates dont change the minds of those involved, just makes them sink their teeth further into their argument. I do it mostly for the audience and those left undecided so they can form opinions from shared logic. For situations like this it feels like an attack on their identify and they hunker down and get hostile…which is what is now happening.
it'd be totally bananas if i was also non-heteronormative and a minority but the difference was I'm more pragmatic and you…to be respectful…aren't. It'd also be crazy if i was in grad school for psych.
Crazy work turning this from a discussion about the issues of tunneling to personally attacking me and passive-aggressive lectures about your orientation. Like this isn't even about DBD anymore lol. Like what are you doing? 😅
Pragmatic? You refuse to discuss practical solutions to credible problems in the game's design, simply because I refuse to apologize for tunneling. I understand that a lot of Survivors find it frustrating, and I honestly do think it needs to go, but I won't blame myself or anyone else for doing it when it's completely legal according to the game's rules.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you wanna brainstorm an anti-tunneling system that feels fair to both sides, I'd be happy to, but that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in here. You seem much more interested in doing character assassinations than actually solving the problem you claim to care about so much.
Not at all what was happening during this "discussion?". You should start from page one and reread it all tbh. You should have someone else copy and paste the "discussion" and cover the names so you can help eliminate bias when going over it.
"You seem much more interested in doing character assassinations"
For real? You've been doing personal attacks for awhile now and even tried to spin me as a bigot in a very off-topic rant lol.
You: repeated insults, saying you feel bad for ppl who know me, trying to spin me as a bigot
Me: Tunneling is selfish
You: THESE CHARACTER ASSINATIONS BY YOU CANNOT STAND 🤬
See what I mean? Absolutely no interest in actually solving the problem. Only interested in saying or doing whatever it takes to paint yourself as the victim and everyone else as the bad guy.
The IRONY 😂 at this point I'm convinced you're rage baiting
So when are you gonna start talking about what we can do to actually solve tunneling instead of just slinging insults at people for playing in a way that you don't like?
To start, I think something like Pain Res basekit would be a better reward for unique hooks than empowering the Killer's next gen-kick, because a lot of Killers (Particularly Killers with low mobility) often can't make good use of an empowered genkick- it'll often take too long for the Killer to reach the gen with the most progress.
With all due respect your previous behavior and debate tactics has made any discussion with you "not optimal" and cannot be handled with maturity. I am having that discussion in other threads and with other people. But any words with you have been proven to result in personal attacks and trolling. So from this post forward…I'm not interacting with you as it is exhausting and goes nowhere. If you take this as a "win". cool. whatever. take whatever validation you need. The "win" for me is having peace in your absence.
Future discussions you take part in you would do well to avoid personal attacks, off-topic tangents, etc. Please do consider CBT and self-reflection.
If another person in this thread would like to talk about potential tunneling fixes, I will be happy to have that conversation.
And nothing of value was lost. I'm getting real tired of your first-year psych-student condescension.
You've literally spent this entire conversation doing nothing but attacking my character and adamantly refusing to discuss productive solutions with me. But I'm the bad guy for calling you out on it? Give me a break.
You've done everything you accused me of doing and willfully ignored it every time I pointed it out. Might I suggest you take your own advice and seek therapy? Projection certainly isn't a sign of a healthy psyche.
MMR works in a way that if you are the only one who escapes, you recieve less MMR than if the whole team escapes.
Same is true if you're the only one to die, you will lose less MMR than if the whole team dies.
And no, you do not personally get to decide what is considered a win, and then demand balancing around your definition. You can decide for yourself "I consider this a win" and "I consider this a loss". But if you're like "why do survivors get a win option because I consider hatch escape a win, but killer doesnt get a win option because I consider a guaranteed 1k a loss", despite them basically being equals long term. In that case I could be like "I got 0 hooks, 0 kills, but survivors didnt grab the item from the basement, I consider that a win" and then demand changes in balancing when survivors manage to grab the item from the basement chest.
You're basically saying your whole argument is moot, because it relies on your personal definitions. Not actual things applied in the game. What matters there is that your MMR raises significantly more if you force 4k's by slugging to deny hatch, and that affects you negatively because you get to face more and more players that are better than you faster and "forces" you to tunnel and slug even more. Survivors who escape through hatch, dont have their MMR rise at all. They could go 1000 matches in a row and get hatch, and despite "winning" by your definition, they will face the same caliber of killers. Yet if you tunnel and slug hardcore to the point that you start facing people who are more and more cooperative and have communication, why demand a nerf to their aspects, when you've been brute forcing more kills than you should have?
Its why I am 100% on the point where killer mains have an ego that mix players and survivor mains dont have. And in 90% of the cases, if I face a mix player on my MMR, they are 10x better than the average killer main on my MMR, because the mix players know its actually a good thing to lose some games.
What? My post is about implementing a reduced version for the time being and then tweak it. How is that buffing survivor overall? It's not even buffing survivors, its just nerfing 2 killer strategies that are actively skewing killer MMR into a situation where they claim they are "forced" to tunnel and slug, despite killer being easier than ever, despite killrates being at an all time high. So why do killers feel forced to tunnel and slug? Because they face survivors that are out of their league. Simple as that.
Lets put it like this, lets say survivors could, at one point in the game, revive all survivors who didnt leave the lobby yet, after all generators are finished. That would massively increase escaperate. MMR speaking, that would also massively raise their MMR. After 3 months, they feel forced to rush gens because its the only way for 3 survivors to escape and will demand gen progression perks to be buffed to compensate because they are forced to rush. Without the progression buffs, they can no longer finish all gens in time to revive everyone. But when you look at it logically, they simply are facing killers they cannot handle, because their MMR got boosted by a mechanic that revives everyone despite them losing.
That has been the status quo for killers for 2 years now. They can rush a kill and slug to win a match that they, by all means, should have lost. That skews MMR, they will have more games they should realistically lose, which they can then win by the skin of their teeth because they got lucky and got a kill at 3 gens and then slugged once 1 gen was remaining. Untill their winrate drops to 60%.
I think I missed my opportunity to post the Michael Jackson popcorn gif. 😣
But they did give compensation:
Hooking survivors non-sequentially (aka, you dont hook the same survivor), you would gain 10% damage boost on your next gen kick interaction and 10% haste after hooking basekit. This would also give you basekit BBQ.
Hooking all survivors once gave you a permanent 5% damage boost on kicking gens in general.
There was also something about seeing the aura of the person with the least amount of chasetime, but I forgot what.
Those are quite significant. You basically get basekit pop without a timer. You can still go for survivor A, survivor B, survivor A, then survivor B and then survivor A again. Which would block gens after the kill in the update version (which, should be tied to a killer. I definitely want Nurse and Blight to have 6 hooks before they kill, but current Trapper should be able to kill without gens getting blocked at 4 hooks).
The update needed tweaks 100%, but the core idea behind it was genuinely something DBD needs long term. Personally, I would add a generator intensity of the last generator you damaged on non-sequential hooks. Aka, if the last hook triggered pain res, the next hook will show you how far the gen progression is of that generator. That way, you can see if you can still interrupt it if they continued it, if its effectively still regressing or if its not worth the interrupt because its at 95% and the survivor on it is gonna finish it before you get close, so you can put your effort on another survivor instead.
You can still add it in, I will see it 👉️👈️
um yes i do get to personally decide what its a win, if i escape i consider that a win. some killers consider 12 hooks and 0 kills a win. some dont. no where in the game does it say "win" or "lose" after a match, your criteria of win and lose is based on mmr which no one can see, no one cares about and lets be honest no one can agree even works based on new players going against players with over 2k hours in the game. Your entire mmr argument is flawed based on this alone.
You said it yourself "less mmr" is gained if im the only one to escape…..so i do gain mmr just not as much. same as if killer got 3k, they would gain mmr but not as much as if they got 4k. You have just proven my point that 1 escaping is considered a win even in mmr terms. Hatch maintains mmr, its neutral so i can get hatch 5 matches in a row, maintain my mmr then be the only 1 to escape through gates, gain a little mmr….then get hatch a few times to keep it steady then escape through gates. you will find i will gain mmr slowly by preventing myself from dying which is a win. do i need to loop the killer and show skill to achieve this? no. i often leave my team mates behind while i walk out the gates lol. easy win, easy climb through the mmr ranks much like tunneling is artificially raising mmr?
The games challenges even include "escape via hatch" and has hatch offerings. it makes no sense to call hatch a loss if it achieves a goal, it even awards BP. for your argument to make any sense at all the hatch would need to be called a sacrifice pit where survivors die, get no challanges done, dont get any BP.
as for tunneling, i tunnel hardcore AFTER i started getting swat swf teams on coms. when i started getting these teams i started tunneling and it turned my matches into reasonably balanced matches. i dont demand nerfs to their aspects because i struggle against them, i have only suggested nerfs the swf to put solo in line with swf a little more and then people can nerf tunneling. but as it stands i dont have an issue with swf and tunneling.
If i remember correctly, the 5% part was the effect of the rework Barbecue and Chilli perk, not something basekit.
But i'm saying they gave a compensation for not tunneling - if you don't hook always the same survivor, you get some bonuses - but they did not give anything for slugging.
Slugging and tunneling are related but they are different strategies. Survivors got - at least on the PTB - basekit OTR, Babysitter and BT as basekit anti-tunnel, killer got BBQ, Pop and Haste as compensation; Survivors got Tenacity and a alternative Unbrekable as anti-slug and killer got nothing in return.
You see, slugging is used most of the time: 1) because you can't pickup immediately (sabo/pallet and flash save potential); 2) it generates more pressure to leave that survivor on the ground for now instead of picking it up; 3) you are afraid of the effect of some perks (Decisive, Power Struggle, Flip Flop). Killer should get some incentive to don't slug, which i believe could be faster pickup and faster mov speed while carrying. Even if in some scenarios slugging would still generate more pressure, at least you would have more incentive to pickup and hook instead of leaving the survivor on the ground.
One thing i think could be iron out is that BBQ is easily countered with lockers. I really believe they should change the aura read to killer instinct instead (or both) to discourage survivors from just hiding in lockers and leaving the killer with no clue on other survivors, encouraging to proxy camp.
😳😝
Comparing Survivors rushing gens to Killers tunneling is one of those things that sounds right on the face of it, but falls apart pretty quickly when you realize that the Killer cannot effectively keep four players off of gens at once without slugging. Which, I'm pretty sure you don't want to encourage. Again, the nature of the game prevents your logic from really following through in a neat and linear way because the game isn't neat and linear.
Let me ask you this in regards to those basekit changes to gens. Did they actively ruin any specific Survivor build/playstyle? Those are roughly analogous to Killer powers (at least as analogous as exists on the Survivor side). From what I can tell, they didn't. None of these changes had such immediately negative repercussions to any Survivor playstyle. Sure, they made Survivor as a whole weaker, but they didn't unfairly punish specific playstyles to a meaningful capacity (truthfully, increasing charges to repair a gen actually makes gen rush better because those percentage repair bonuses get more total value).
The only one here that impedes a specific Survivor playstyle are the changes to map decor, which is fair. But, it also opens up the argument that perks designed to enable a stealthy playstyle gained value as a direct result. So like, even then it largely falls flat upon further inspection. Then there's also an argument that the removal of tall grass negatively impacted some Killers as well, who could (or would have had it remained e.g. Chucky) been able to leverage it to their advantage.
In regards to changes that combat the increase of tunneling and slugging you also forgot:
Seems like these would be relevant to mention if you had the intention of being fair when talking about both sides. I feel like I missed something too, but it's late and I don't wanna do research haha
Chase-related interactions are not really relevant changes to your specified example (gen rushing) so I won't be addressing them as that's another tangent entirely. To be 100% transparent, I think these were pretty much all good changes on both sides. I don't really possess any form of immense bias to one role over another. My goal is to keep specific Killers from being disadvantaged from the proposed changes, not balking at the idea of a change to the role.
I think I've been very clear that my overall stance is that the changes were bad largely because they ended up punishing Killers in uneven, exploitative, and even unavoidable ways. If you haven't been picking up on that being my main qualm, then I don't have any hope for this conversation to progress further. They were flawed the way they were presented to us, and they would need significant reworking to be healthy changes. I like the idea of changes aimed to reduce hard-tunneling and excessive slugging, but I would need them to be implemented in a way which only affects the Killer players actively trying to ruin someone's day. Anything else means it can crop up in regular gameplay and become problematic. That's why I already made a thread about a reworked version of these changes that accomplishes those goals. Constructive criticism over, well, balking.
Thread closed as some recent comments have become increasingly toxic.