I don't think they'll ever come tbh. It's Behaviour. How many times have they let us down in the past.
I would have agreed last year. This year, I'm not so sure. I do think they'll bring it back, but it's hard to say what it will look like. I'm getting the sense that they are actually trying to incorporate fairness back into the game, but it's a tossup on how far they'd be willing to go to get there. I also feel like the disaster of anti-go next and TWD chapter has them acting much more hesitant than before.
The game is asymmetric, the Survivor role and Killer role are unable to be compared, as they are functionally two different games.
So that would be the first issue.
Oh of course - so basically we keep making the game as miserable as possible for survivor and keep rewarding killers more and more for driving players away from the game - what a super smart idea.
There will never be a punishment for tunnelling, Killers control everything in this game now as they have Otz who will cry the loudest tears for them if they ever even have to consider playing in a manner that doesn't involve 4 regression perks and tunnelling the first person out. THAT is why pulling this anti tunnel system is the problem, they have given killers full support to ramp it up even further with absolutely no consequences.
I really dont get why this is so hard for people to understand honestly.
It's not that people find it "hard to understand" so much that they think strictly facecamping was not ever The Whole Problem and that proxy camping was (is) also problematic, or that Bubba standing at the top of basement stairs instead of at the bottom makes no practical difference and should still be punished. They know the changes address what they're supposed to address, the argument is that what they address isn't enough
I personally don't care because I'm at a point where I'm done with this game for a while, but that's the reasoning for the supposed gap in logic there
I'm more concerned people in charge of the game looked at the changes, how ambitious many of them were and how far reaching their consequences would be, how many interactions they couldn't possibly have tested and prepared for that the community would figure out before the content was even in our hands, and still went ahead with it in that state.
Then I'm more concerned with how things like the anti-go next feature went. Both in how it was designed in a way that led to almost as many false positives as genuine applications.
Then I'm also considered with how the feedback went toward it. Some was for refinement and fixing the system's accuracy and cutting down on false flagging, while the rest was a resounding "Just throw it out entirely" because of how many people who would be satisfied with nothing but removal of such an extreme system that could potentially affect them in their minds.
Now we look at changes that affect the entire killer role, not only not fixing killer balance but making it even worse, punishing killers for getting kills that don't involve tunneling because there was a possibility they potentially could, making changes to slugging that effect the entire macro game focus of both sides decidedly in one direction, applying both the carrot and stick simultaneously (which is good!) but doing so in extremely uneven measure (which is bad.)
Then people are surprised when so many killers want everything thrown out instead of refined. They should have seen this outcome from a mile away, there is no way they could hope to make this many sweeping changes at once and expect to land on the right values and oversights for everything. This is to be expected. But that makes it that much more important that the community is both fair and honest about all of it, regardless of how any changes affect them individually.
A lot of feedback has been dismissive since the moment the patch notes dropped. A lot of other feedback has been alarm bells at the slightest shadow. But a lot of people have been addressing foresights since the moment that the first details were revealed, mostly because of the amount of details that weren't, and how these things go each time they try to make ambitious changes.
Don't give up on making core experience improvements. That is a good focus to have, as player experience is very important. Not to go on a tangent, but the history of Final Fantasy 14 is a very good example of how important customer satisfaction can be for a game's success and longevity. All they did was strive to do better, put pride (and in some cases, even career security itself) aside and focused on addressing player issues in a way that impacted other players as little as possible, and went from being cancelled to the biggest game in its genre with an even longer lifespan.
The biggest difference with an asymetric environment is that both sides need to be treated evenly obviously, but they also need to be considered evenly. Not as a "devs favor X!" kind of excuse, but more of a "If I make a change to X survivor thing, it will affect Y and Z survivor things as well, but also C and D killer things." People theorycraft and doompost because they have little faith that their concerns will be addressed, and the pipeline for some fixes has been notoriously slow.
There will always be hyperbolic feedback that is self focused instead of being about the game on the whole, and there will always be people who want to throw out anything they see as a threat to themselves. All we can do as a community is be honest with our feedback, and all they can do is be willing to sift through the rubble and learn how to improve the game from it.
I just want everyone to remember how the anti-go next went. Both in the community, and how it was handled behind the scenes. We obviously don't know the latter, nor necessarily should we, but its crucial that the RIGHT steps be taken in regards to how to handle these changes going forward, regardless of whether they are the EASY ones. Many of the changes from this PTB have the potential to "save" or "kill" the game, depending on how they are (or aren't) revised and/or iterated upon. More than anything my personal concerns are how much dissonance is going to impact changes on this scale, whether the devs and leadership will be up to the task of handling things properly, and whether the community on either side will essentially sabotage them with bad data.
This isn't bandaid fixes, its actual core adjustments. Its important that the community acknowledges this is a shot at the devs doing more than throwing perks or numbers adjustments at problems and calling it a day, and its important that the devs realize that making changes this integral has amazing potential to both improve or ruin the game.
Yeah the ptb isn't a fair assessment. Console players have no access, or Epic players. It's so limited. It's also going to be full of people intentionally exploiting it to test its limits, which doesn't give a great idea of how average, casaul, or non-streamer players will interact with the changes.
With each day of more and more screaming, I saw it coming more and more. Especially when I see posts like "look what happened to this content creator." Then you know something is doomed.
I agree, they need to get it right. I'd said in another post that they should have done this separately from the new killer/survivor release. This was an absolute overload of additions.
I think that's become everyone's (well, everyone reasonable) concern--that killers will get to keep everything and survivor, the already struggling role, will get little to nothing.
Oh yeah, it was absolutely crazy to think they could reasonably act on all the feedback from this absolute chungus sized beast of a PTB. It was always looking like a very ambitious update to me, so I'm not at all surprised the more controversial changes have been pushed back to a later release.
The anti-tunnel / anti-slug updates were obviously going to trigger a massive backlash and I get the impression BHVR might have been surprised by the strength of feeling and push back they're received. You wouldn't pack so much into one update unless you're not expecting such resistance. Honestly don't know what they were thinking.
I'm more concerned people in charge of the game looked at the changes, how ambitious many of them were and how far reaching their consequences would be, how many interactions they couldn't possibly have tested and prepared for that the community would figure out before the content was even in our hands, and still went ahead with it in that state.
Then I'm more concerned with how things like the anti-go next feature went. Both in how it was designed in a way that led to almost as many false positives as genuine applications.
Then I'm also considered with how the feedback went toward it. Some was for refinement and fixing the system's accuracy and cutting down on false flagging, while the rest was a resounding "Just throw it out entirely" because of how many people who would be satisfied with nothing but removal of such an extreme system that could potentially affect them in their minds.
Now we look at changes that affect the entire killer role, not only not fixing killer balance but making it even worse, punishing killers for getting kills that don't involve tunneling because there was a possibility they potentially could, making changes to slugging that effect the entire macro game focus of both sides decidedly in one direction, applying both the carrot and stick simultaneously (which is good!) but doing so in extremely uneven measure (which is bad.)
Then people are surprised when so many killers want everything thrown out instead of refined. They should have seen this outcome from a mile away, there is no way they could hope to make this many sweeping changes at once and expect to land on the right values and oversights for everything. This is to be expected. But that makes it that much more important that the community is both fair and honest about all of it, regardless of how any changes affect them individually.
A lot of feedback has been dismissive since the moment the patch notes dropped. A lot of other feedback has been alarm bells at the slightest shadow. But a lot of people have been addressing foresights since the moment that the first details were revealed, mostly because of the amount of details that weren't, and how these things go each time they try to make ambitious changes.
Don't give up on making core experience improvements. That is a good focus to have, as player experience is very important. Not to go on a tangent, but the history of Final Fantasy 14 is a very good example of how important customer satisfaction can be for a game's success and longevity. All they did was strive to do better, put pride (and in some cases, even career security itself) aside and focused on addressing player issues in a way that impacted other players as little as possible, and went from being cancelled to the biggest game in its genre with an even longer lifespan.
The biggest difference with an asymetric environment is that both sides need to be treated evenly obviously, but they also need to be considered evenly. Not as a "devs favor X!" kind of excuse, but more of a "If I make a change to X survivor thing, it will affect Y and Z survivor things as well, but also C and D killer things." People theorycraft and doompost because they have little faith that their concerns will be addressed, and the pipeline for some fixes has been notoriously slow.
There will always be hyperbolic feedback that is self focused instead of being about the game on the whole, and there will always be people who want to throw out anything they see as a threat to themselves. All we can do as a community is be honest with our feedback, and all they can do is be willing to sift through the rubble and learn how to improve the game from it.
I just want everyone to remember how the anti-go next went. Both in the community, and how it was handled behind the scenes. We obviously don't know the latter, nor necessarily should we, but its crucial that the RIGHT steps be taken in regards to how to handle these changes going forward, regardless of whether they are the EASY ones. Many of the changes from this PTB have the potential to "save" or "kill" the game, depending on how they are (or aren't) revised and/or iterated upon. More than anything my personal concerns are how much dissonance is going to impact changes on this scale, whether the devs and leadership will be up to the task of handling things properly, and whether the community on either side will essentially sabotage them with bad data.
This isn't bandaid fixes, its actual core adjustments. Its important that the community acknowledges this is a shot at the devs doing more than throwing perks or numbers adjustments at problems and calling it a day, and its important that the devs realize that making changes this integral has amazing potential to both improve or ruin the game.
It's not that people find it "hard to understand" so much that they think strictly facecamping was not ever The Whole Problem and that proxy camping was (is) also problematic, or that Bubba standing at the top of basement stairs instead of at the bottom makes no practical difference and should still be punished. They know the changes address what they're supposed to address, the argument is that what they address isn't enough
I personally don't care because I'm at a point where I'm done with this game for a while, but that's the reasoning for the supposed gap in logic there
Not to mention that changes like AFC came after healthy hook grabs were removed, which addressed the problem fairly well as is.
I would've liked it more if they tweaked the numbers to the Anti Tunnel and Anti Slug for release. Then during Hot fixes like 9.2.1, 9.2.2, etc. they keep adjusting numbers
Not to mention that changes like AFC came after healthy hook grabs were removed, which addressed the problem fairly well as is.
it addressed some of the issues but AFC was very necessary for insta down killers in particular. bubba, billy, myers with t3 99’d, huntress with iri head, clown with red head pony finger, etc would have still been very problematic at face camping since they could guarantee nobody could get the save.
I would've liked it more if they tweaked the numbers to the Anti Tunnel and Anti Slug for release. Then during Hot fixes like 9.2.1, 9.2.2, etc. they keep adjusting numbers
they should’ve added it in with the 9.2.0 update but instantly kill switch them until one of the 3 bug fix patches where they can implement the adjustments. having to wait possibly until the end of october or sometime november for the 9.3 midchapter with the tunneling and slugging features is gonna feel horrible as survivor.
it addressed some of the issues but AFC was very necessary for insta down killers in particular. bubba, billy, myers with t3 99’d, huntress with iri head, clown with red head pony finger, etc would have still been very problematic at face camping since they could guarantee nobody could get the save.
The issue there though is that it only delays two Survivors going down/dying. The one Survivor on the hook isn't strong enough to reliably avoid it, which is what makes the system feel so pointless (in addition to proxy camping being unaffected). Had we not removed healthy hook grabs, AFC would have felt more substantial I think. Otherwise, it felt like something that was neat but didn't really do a whole lot overall.
Oh yeah, it was absolutely crazy to think they could reasonably act on all the feedback from this absolute chungus sized beast of a PTB. It was always looking like a very ambitious update to me, so I'm not at all surprised the more controversial changes have been pushed back to a later release.
The anti-tunnel / anti-slug updates were obviously going to trigger a massive backlash and I get the impression BHVR might have been surprised by the strength of feeling and push back they're received. You wouldn't pack so much into one update unless you're not expecting such resistance. Honestly don't know what they were thinking.
After the The Great Fog Vial War they should have seen it coming. That was so much drama over something so minor.
There was so much in this update I completely forgot about the new characters. I've had to keep reminding myself that they exist. We just had The Walking Dead, which most people thought was handled poorly and needed more work, particualry that god awful map. Before that we had Springtrap. I'm so exhausted with all this new stuff. Please just adjust the game to be more enjoyable.
Oh yeah, it was absolutely crazy to think they could reasonably act on all the feedback from this absolute chungus sized beast of a PTB. It was always looking like a very ambitious update to me, so I'm not at all surprised the more controversial changes have been pushed back to a later release.
The anti-tunnel / anti-slug updates were obviously going to trigger a massive backlash and I get the impression BHVR might have been surprised by the strength of feeling and push back they're received. You wouldn't pack so much into one update unless you're not expecting such resistance. Honestly don't know what they were thinking.
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but it might have been a kind of "release it in an overbearing state, that way it can be later released in a toned down form with less backlash" kind of approach. That would be the Easy way, while working out all of the issues and refining/polishing the systems to be both fair and functional would be the Right way.
This is crazy. Do they realize how killer-sided this community is. Like of course killers are going to complain about learning to adjust and actually play the killer.
Like I've said before, the loudest voice in the community will control the flow of the game. Even if it's causes unfair gameplay for the opposing side.
So these changes can make like half the killers feel like worst killers now and worst killers now be almost gg free escape against them and you call it killer sided? These changes were overdone and if every killer would be like wesker in terms of power then they could go out but we have still ghostface,trapper,clown or knight which would get done by this going live not to mention hardcore tunneling punishments that can punish hardcore tunneler and even killer playing normaly or 12 hooking which inst good or healty in first place. This is probably biggest change in years of dbd that will determine it future so theres nothing wrong from devs side to be carefull with this change being most balanced as it should be.
Seeing how they can have different / reduced stat percentages between all the killer's, example being the mobility killer's only getting 10% of the spreading hooks 'Reward' buff vs 20% for other killer's, I don't see how they can't put killer's into their own Anti-tunnel / Slug balancing catagories when it comes to adding new systems or even perks. I mean let's be honest, majority of tunneler's are mobility killer's and the ptb anti-tunnel changes would have been more ideal for them vs non mobility m1 killer's.
After the The Great Fog Vial War they should have seen it coming. That was so much drama over something so minor.
There was so much in this update I completely forgot about the new characters. I've had to keep reminding myself that they exist. We just had The Walking Dead, which most people thought was handled poorly and needed more work, particualry that god awful map. Before that we had Springtrap. I'm so exhausted with all this new stuff. Please just adjust the game to be more enjoyable.
It's easy to forget all the new content, tbh.
Don't know how strong she will be, but I really like the new Killer's design and Vee is such a cutie. And it's gonna be fun to whip out my tambourine and play it in the face of the angry hornet's nest of tunnelling Killers that BHVR have now whipped up into a frenzy for us. Silver linings and all that…
But yeah, feels like we only just got the Walking Dead yesterday and yet here it is, more content… Phew.
Being told that it's a major problem for killers to slug, but that it's 100% awesome if survivors want to force the killer to slug, was such a massive double standard. If slugging is so bad, then killers should be able to remotely hook survivors off the ground, as one of their rewards for avoiding tunneling.
And nerfed basekit BBQ, that survivors could easily dodge, and often revealed zero survivors…. was such an insultingly bad "reward" for avoiding tunneling.
The real concern now is whether they'll actually follow through on slugging and Tunnelling, given how quickly they backed down. And let’s be honest, it also reveals which side of the equation they’re more invested in. When killer mechanics get pushback, it’s a pause and rethink. When survivor QoL gets pushback, it’s a full retreat.
Don't know how strong she will be, but I really like the new Killer's design and Vee is such a cutie. And it's gonna be fun to whip out my tambourine and play it in the face of the angry hornet's nest of tunnelling Killers that BHVR have now whipped up into a frenzy for us. Silver linings and all that…
But yeah, feels like we only just got the Walking Dead yesterday and yet here it is, more content… Phew.
I'd like to start a full band with One-Two-Three-Four and Bardic Inspirtation but I'm worried fun might be illegal.
Seeing how they can have different / reduced stat percentages between all the killer's, example being the mobility killer's only getting 10% of the spreading hooks 'Reward' buff vs 20% for other killer's, I don't see how they can't put killer's into their own Anti-tunnel / Slug balancing catagories when it comes to adding new systems or even perks. I mean let's be honest, majority of tunneler's are mobility killer's and the ptb anti-tunnel changes would have been more ideal for them vs non mobility m1 killer's.
I think this was one of the biggest takeaways from this PTB, actually incorporating the various strengths and weaknesses of killers into elements of the game, especially when they will affect all of them in every match. The most we've seen of this are things like cages not following (un)hooking rules, or nurse having stuff made into special attacks to prevent being able to utilize M1 perks. There is potential for more elements to have variable strength based on specific factors like that, and using it as a means to help the weaker killers more while reducing exploitation potential on the stronger ones would be one of the single biggest normalizations they could do to address the game's balance. Then again, survivor audio has been coming along "great" so it could very well have just been a fluke.
At least, for those of us who got to test it out in a normal manner, the changes really didn't feel too bad.
I made a much more in-depth post about the anti-tunnel feature in the PTB feedback section if you want to read my verdict on the matter.
For what its worth, I really hope they don't scrap the idea, because there were a lot of good changes in this test patch.
With the news of the update being pushed back, I will give my honest review of "the good, the bad, and the ugly" when it came to the PTB test patch, and more specifically, the anti-tunnel part
Anti-tunnel
Probably the biggest change out of all, and the most controversial in terms of balance shift.
The Good.
Survivors in an early 3v1 scenario gets a much needed helping hand in the form of an increase to repair speed. This made most of the games I tested go from a surefire 4K for the killer to a 1-2 out. Matches felt A LOT more fair. Granted, if the killer did not tunnel anyone, the matches could go either way. Killers who played well was easily able to get all survivors for instance.
Killers got the built-in BBQ (which stacked with Lethal Pursuer), and built-in 20% Pop Goes the Weasel that lasted 30 seconds, if they did not choose to tunnel. A very solid basekit buff that was very noticeable, especially when stacked with the actual perk. Definitely nothing to scoff at.
A nice little BP incentive as well, for spreading hooks around. A much welcome addition.
The new Elusive status effect in of itself. The aura/killer instinct block was great, as well as the hiding of scratch marks, blood and grunts of pain. Aggressive or conspicous play would take away the effect.
Survivors who neglected the hooked teammate (from first stage) would not trigger a punishment for the killer.
The Bad.
Elusive coming with a "diet OTR endurance" that also lasts for 30 seconds, as well as ignoring collision for the same duration. This needs to be toned down to the same duration as the Haste and current Endurance, which is 10 seconds.
Hook state being hidden for the killer, and delayed. This could also make finding the unhooker more difficult, unless you were physically watching the hook. - Now, the removal of the loud noise notification was fine.
In some cases, Elusive could be abused by SWF to get easy body-blocks.
6 hook states was maybe too much. Reduce it to 5 states. If a survivor is dead at 5 hook states, then the punishment should be put into effect. It would still not fully get rid of staggered tunneling (juggling two survivors on the hooks), but it would make it a less effective tactic.
The Ugly.
Certain killer powers trigger punishment way too easily. Such as Sadako's Condemn and Pig's head traps. This needs to be adjusted and made exceptions for in the code, so that it cannot be abused by co-ordinated survivors (SWF intentionally popping the head-trap for example).
The punishment is too harsh. A good compromise would be to keep the Entity-blocker, but for 40 seconds after a hook instead of it being permanent. This would still block perks like Pain Resonance, Dead Man's Switch, Ruin and Grim Embrace from triggering, but after the grace period is over, the killer could still instill regression by kicking or Ruin would take effect.
The Final Verdict, and a short summary of my testing.
Overall, the anti-tunnel is a GREAT addition, and promotes fair play. But there are definitely things that needs to be adjusted accordingly, as stated in my bullet points.
And for the love of God.. DO NOT SCRAP THE IDEA!
It has been the best experience I have had as survivor in DBD since 6.1.0, and the introduction of the finisher mori.
And since I am a fair player as killer to begin with, I found the basekit buffs to be amazing. It freed up a lot of perk slots that could be used for more creative builds, not having to religiously rely on slowdown.
I did not find my killer matches to be any harder than normal.
So the final verdict is: Make small changes to the anti-tunnel system, push it onto a new PTB soon, and hopefully onto the live servers in a more polished state, so that more people can properly test it out.
Here is my breakdown of the anti-tunnel, after 20+ matches worth of observing how it played out.
I'd like to start a full band with One-Two-Three-Four and Bardic Inspirtation but I'm worried fun might be illegal.
Do it! Already cooking up a "make some noise" build of my own:
One-Two-Three-Four + Bardic + Red Herring or Diversion + Blast Mine.
My escape rate's gonna to go through the floor and my teammates will probably hate me, but it will totally be worth it. Hopefully I can get at least one other Survivor to jam out with me.
Oh of course - so basically we keep making the game as miserable as possible for survivor and keep rewarding killers more and more for driving players away from the game - what a super smart idea.
There will never be a punishment for tunnelling, Killers control everything in this game now as they have Otz who will cry the loudest tears for them if they ever even have to consider playing in a manner that doesn't involve 4 regression perks and tunnelling the first person out. THAT is why pulling this anti tunnel system is the problem, they have given killers full support to ramp it up even further with absolutely no consequences.
I did not say that.
Did you find the system to be perfect in the PTB? You could find no room for improvement?
Do it! Already cooking up a "make some noise" build of my own:
One-Two-Three-Four + Bardic + Red Herring or Diversion + Blast Mine.
My escape rate's gonna to go through the floor and my teammates will probably hate me, but it will totally be worth it. Hopefully I can get at least one other Survivor to jam out with me.
Oh hell yeah. Scene Partner for vocals too.
Yeah that's what I want, like a 4man all with instruments having a jam session. You just need to hope you land a lighthearted killer.
Great. They're going to take an overwhelmingly good patch that only needed a few minor tweaks out back and neuter it into oblivion, and survivor will continue to be a miserable experience 80% of the time because the majority of killers never actually learn how to play the game and rely exclusively on tunneling/camping/slugging. And it only took a couple days for them to back down. Thanks, BHVR.
People genuinely believed that bhvr would go through with these changes as they were, regardless of people's feedback.
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
I'd say they're consistent. The consistency just has a wee bit of a slant in one direction.
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
They're not inconsistent though. They listened for days, weeks even, to all the people claiming that it wasn't a problem and survivors were just whining about nothing whatsoever.
And they're listening to that exact same group now.
I'd say they're consistent. The consistency just has a wee bit of a slant in one direction.
Apparently, they listen to feedback volume when it's a hundred alt accounts with single digit lifetime posts spamming ai slop all over every forum here.
I thought all of that was against forum rules, and it's clearly stated in the forum rules, but apparently, that's what it takes to get them to change the patch notes.
Apparently, they listen to feedback volume when it's a hundred alt accounts with single digit lifetime posts spamming ai slop all over every forum here.
I thought all of that was against forum rules, and it's clearly stated in the forum rules, but apparently, that's what it takes to get them to change the patch notes.
I don't think AI posts on here is the sole reason for their decision.
They've stated before more than once, that they don't just look at a single site only, but across multiple. So places like Reddit, Tiktok, Twitter, the official forums, Youtube, Steam discussions, etc.
They've stated before more than once, that they don't just look at a single site only, but across multiple. So Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, the official forums, Youtube, Steam discussions, etc.
That doesn't change the fact that they ignored feedback.
And, for the record, the crows and go next are literally mechanics that "dictate what counts as playing the game", "punish the player for playing 'incorrectly'", and "have abuse situations that were (and are) not considered".
Me saying it's "inconsistent" is putting it very mildly. Whether they intended to or not, that's the bare minimum perception the community can take from these two, back to back, patch reactions.
Trying to say otherwise is denying reality at this point.
Did you find the system to be perfect in the PTB? You could find no room for improvement?
I think the complaint is that the finish line has been moved, they have appeased the killer base and made an empty promise to the survivor base.
"For the release of Sinister Grace, we will hold back those features (and their associated perk changes) to iterate on some adjustments based on your feedback. We will test these features again in an upcoming PTB and will release them live when we believe they are ready."
Now that the complaints were rewarded, no matter what the devs do now, the killer mains and social media people will light up if behavior touches tunneling or slugging.
They could have just adjusted the numbers or changed the incentives in future updates, however now, we will unfortunately never know how these changes could have affected the greater dbd community.
I think the complaint is that the finish line has been moved, they have appeased the killer base and made an empty promise to the survivor base.
"For the release of Sinister Grace, we will hold back those features (and their associated perk changes) to iterate on some adjustments based on your feedback. We will test these features again in an upcoming PTB and will release them live when we believe they are ready."
Now that the complaints were rewarded, no matter what the devs do now, the killer mains and social media people will light up if behavior touches tunneling or slugging.
They could have just adjusted the numbers or changed the incentives in future updates, however now, we will unfortunately never know how these changes could have affected the greater dbd community.
I think this is a large change to how the game plays. Probably larger than anything except the EGC, in recent memory.
Getting it mostly right, the first time, is important. I think pushing anti-tunnel and slug with a new chapter and a killer rework was a mistake.
You say as killer perks have gotten murdered almost every chapter
Perks on both sides are constantly getting nerfed, adjusted, ot reworked. Streetwise was one of my go-tos. It was totally ruined recently and mostly died in silence thanks to the bug in the rework taking precedence. Vigil is also on the chopping block.
But in terms of game changes, recent examples like fog vials and this patch were all killer-sided. And survivors are STILL getting DC penalties for getting tunneled too fast.
Perks on both sides are constantly getting nerfed, adjusted, ot reworked. Streetwise was one of my go-tos. It was totally ruined recently and mostly died in silence thanks to the bug in the rework taking precedence. Vigil is also on the chopping block.
But in terms of game changes, recent examples like fog vials and this patch were all killer-sided. And survivors are STILL getting DC penalties for getting tunneled too fast.
Also, the only even slightly meta killer perk to have gotten nerfed in the last year is Franklin's. The killer meta has been stale to the point of tedium for years. I have no idea what this dude is talking about. If you go all the way back to a year ago, I guess you could include DMS changed to only affect one gen at a time while having its duration buffed. After that… Sable's patch and the mangled nerf? So March of 2024 for the last significant nerf. To Sloppy Butcher/Gift of Pain.
Perks on both sides are constantly getting nerfed, adjusted, ot reworked. Streetwise was one of my go-tos. It was totally ruined recently and mostly died in silence thanks to the bug in the rework taking precedence. Vigil is also on the chopping block.
But in terms of game changes, recent examples like fog vials and this patch were all killer-sided. And survivors are STILL getting DC penalties for getting tunneled too fast.
Well also, BOON: CIRCLE OF HEALING!!!!! …they gutted that and all healing around the same time. The discourse on 3-genning was happening during and before that nerf, yet it took them 18 months to address it with the 8-kick rule. Survivor concerns are not addressed with urgency.
Also, the only even slightly meta killer perk to have gotten nerfed in the last year is Franklin's. The killer meta has been stale to the point of tedium for years. I have no idea what this dude is talking about. If you go all the way back to a year ago, I guess you could include DMS changed to only affect one gen at a time while having its duration buffed. After that… Sable's patch and the mangled nerf? So March of 2024 for the last significant nerf. To Sloppy Butcher/Gift of Pain.
Yeah I have to say, as much as I hate chase and second chance builds on survivors, I find the killer builds mostly boring as all hell. At least with survivor you do see some fun, creative, or memey builds. Killer is just regression and aura almost entirely.
Well also, BOON: CIRCLE OF HEALING!!!!! …they gutted that and all healing around the same time. The discourse on 3-genning was happening during and before that nerf, yet it took them 18 months to address it with the 8-kick rule. Survivor concerns are not addressed with urgency.
Boons are a tragedy. I love little objectives like blessing them or doing invocations but none of it's worth the trouble.
Not surprised, just disappointed. Not going to hold my breath that they'll release a version that's actually useful. I find it funny they arent putting out the antitunnel/slug because "too punishing for the killer" but a killer forcing the go next penalty on a survivor by quickly tunneling them out is not too punishing for the survivor. Good to know losing a match is too punishing but having a penalty forced on you that puts you in time out from playing the game at all is perfectly fine. 😂
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
I'll always remember how there were posts worrying that SWFs would bring four plot twists so they could instantly abandon and lose, and BHVR made sure to say in the patch notes this wouldn't work, but the whole idea of the killer delaying gens and the survivors getting sacrificed was completely missed.
I was happy to see that this is delayed. We want BHVR to test stuff and respond to feedback about it, so it's good to hear that they're being thoughtful about this.
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
What makes the anti go next even more pathetic when you consider this cancellation of anti tunnel - the tunnelling is so bad currently that their own anti go next system was classing people who had been tunnelled out as "going next" and punished them for it. Now it seems to me if your anti go next system is picking up people being tunnelled out as something that should be punished, then tunnelling is a MASSIVE problem in the game but we can't punish killers because they have to be rewarded at all times for absolutely everything.
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I would have agreed last year. This year, I'm not so sure. I do think they'll bring it back, but it's hard to say what it will look like. I'm getting the sense that they are actually trying to incorporate fairness back into the game, but it's a tossup on how far they'd be willing to go to get there. I also feel like the disaster of anti-go next and TWD chapter has them acting much more hesitant than before.
Oh of course - so basically we keep making the game as miserable as possible for survivor and keep rewarding killers more and more for driving players away from the game - what a super smart idea.
There will never be a punishment for tunnelling, Killers control everything in this game now as they have Otz who will cry the loudest tears for them if they ever even have to consider playing in a manner that doesn't involve 4 regression perks and tunnelling the first person out. THAT is why pulling this anti tunnel system is the problem, they have given killers full support to ramp it up even further with absolutely no consequences.
Go figure the killers yell loud enough and basically nothing changes. They get to keep the buffs to right?
It's not that people find it "hard to understand" so much that they think strictly facecamping was not ever The Whole Problem and that proxy camping was (is) also problematic, or that Bubba standing at the top of basement stairs instead of at the bottom makes no practical difference and should still be punished. They know the changes address what they're supposed to address, the argument is that what they address isn't enough
I personally don't care because I'm at a point where I'm done with this game for a while, but that's the reasoning for the supposed gap in logic there
I'm more concerned people in charge of the game looked at the changes, how ambitious many of them were and how far reaching their consequences would be, how many interactions they couldn't possibly have tested and prepared for that the community would figure out before the content was even in our hands, and still went ahead with it in that state.
Then I'm more concerned with how things like the anti-go next feature went. Both in how it was designed in a way that led to almost as many false positives as genuine applications.
Then I'm also considered with how the feedback went toward it. Some was for refinement and fixing the system's accuracy and cutting down on false flagging, while the rest was a resounding "Just throw it out entirely" because of how many people who would be satisfied with nothing but removal of such an extreme system that could potentially affect them in their minds.
Now we look at changes that affect the entire killer role, not only not fixing killer balance but making it even worse, punishing killers for getting kills that don't involve tunneling because there was a possibility they potentially could, making changes to slugging that effect the entire macro game focus of both sides decidedly in one direction, applying both the carrot and stick simultaneously (which is good!) but doing so in extremely uneven measure (which is bad.)
Then people are surprised when so many killers want everything thrown out instead of refined. They should have seen this outcome from a mile away, there is no way they could hope to make this many sweeping changes at once and expect to land on the right values and oversights for everything. This is to be expected. But that makes it that much more important that the community is both fair and honest about all of it, regardless of how any changes affect them individually.
A lot of feedback has been dismissive since the moment the patch notes dropped. A lot of other feedback has been alarm bells at the slightest shadow. But a lot of people have been addressing foresights since the moment that the first details were revealed, mostly because of the amount of details that weren't, and how these things go each time they try to make ambitious changes.
Don't give up on making core experience improvements. That is a good focus to have, as player experience is very important. Not to go on a tangent, but the history of Final Fantasy 14 is a very good example of how important customer satisfaction can be for a game's success and longevity. All they did was strive to do better, put pride (and in some cases, even career security itself) aside and focused on addressing player issues in a way that impacted other players as little as possible, and went from being cancelled to the biggest game in its genre with an even longer lifespan.
The biggest difference with an asymetric environment is that both sides need to be treated evenly obviously, but they also need to be considered evenly. Not as a "devs favor X!" kind of excuse, but more of a "If I make a change to X survivor thing, it will affect Y and Z survivor things as well, but also C and D killer things." People theorycraft and doompost because they have little faith that their concerns will be addressed, and the pipeline for some fixes has been notoriously slow.
There will always be hyperbolic feedback that is self focused instead of being about the game on the whole, and there will always be people who want to throw out anything they see as a threat to themselves. All we can do as a community is be honest with our feedback, and all they can do is be willing to sift through the rubble and learn how to improve the game from it.
I just want everyone to remember how the anti-go next went. Both in the community, and how it was handled behind the scenes. We obviously don't know the latter, nor necessarily should we, but its crucial that the RIGHT steps be taken in regards to how to handle these changes going forward, regardless of whether they are the EASY ones. Many of the changes from this PTB have the potential to "save" or "kill" the game, depending on how they are (or aren't) revised and/or iterated upon. More than anything my personal concerns are how much dissonance is going to impact changes on this scale, whether the devs and leadership will be up to the task of handling things properly, and whether the community on either side will essentially sabotage them with bad data.
This isn't bandaid fixes, its actual core adjustments. Its important that the community acknowledges this is a shot at the devs doing more than throwing perks or numbers adjustments at problems and calling it a day, and its important that the devs realize that making changes this integral has amazing potential to both improve or ruin the game.
Oh yeah, it was absolutely crazy to think they could reasonably act on all the feedback from this absolute chungus sized beast of a PTB. It was always looking like a very ambitious update to me, so I'm not at all surprised the more controversial changes have been pushed back to a later release.
The anti-tunnel / anti-slug updates were obviously going to trigger a massive backlash and I get the impression BHVR might have been surprised by the strength of feeling and push back they're received. You wouldn't pack so much into one update unless you're not expecting such resistance. Honestly don't know what they were thinking.
how long did it take you to type this? be honest
Not to mention that changes like AFC came after healthy hook grabs were removed, which addressed the problem fairly well as is.
I dunno… 10 minutes? Wasn't exactly counting.
I would've liked it more if they tweaked the numbers to the Anti Tunnel and Anti Slug for release. Then during Hot fixes like 9.2.1, 9.2.2, etc. they keep adjusting numbers
it addressed some of the issues but AFC was very necessary for insta down killers in particular. bubba, billy, myers with t3 99’d, huntress with iri head, clown with red head pony finger, etc would have still been very problematic at face camping since they could guarantee nobody could get the save.
lol. i respect the dedication you have towards the topic and post. you have my upvote.
they should’ve added it in with the 9.2.0 update but instantly kill switch them until one of the 3 bug fix patches where they can implement the adjustments. having to wait possibly until the end of october or sometime november for the 9.3 midchapter with the tunneling and slugging features is gonna feel horrible as survivor.
The issue there though is that it only delays two Survivors going down/dying. The one Survivor on the hook isn't strong enough to reliably avoid it, which is what makes the system feel so pointless (in addition to proxy camping being unaffected). Had we not removed healthy hook grabs, AFC would have felt more substantial I think. Otherwise, it felt like something that was neat but didn't really do a whole lot overall.
After the The Great Fog Vial War they should have seen it coming. That was so much drama over something so minor.
There was so much in this update I completely forgot about the new characters. I've had to keep reminding myself that they exist. We just had The Walking Dead, which most people thought was handled poorly and needed more work, particualry that god awful map. Before that we had Springtrap. I'm so exhausted with all this new stuff. Please just adjust the game to be more enjoyable.
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but it might have been a kind of "release it in an overbearing state, that way it can be later released in a toned down form with less backlash" kind of approach. That would be the Easy way, while working out all of the issues and refining/polishing the systems to be both fair and functional would be the Right way.
So these changes can make like half the killers feel like worst killers now and worst killers now be almost gg free escape against them and you call it killer sided? These changes were overdone and if every killer would be like wesker in terms of power then they could go out but we have still ghostface,trapper,clown or knight which would get done by this going live not to mention hardcore tunneling punishments that can punish hardcore tunneler and even killer playing normaly or 12 hooking which inst good or healty in first place. This is probably biggest change in years of dbd that will determine it future so theres nothing wrong from devs side to be carefull with this change being most balanced as it should be.
Seeing how they can have different / reduced stat percentages between all the killer's, example being the mobility killer's only getting 10% of the spreading hooks 'Reward' buff vs 20% for other killer's, I don't see how they can't put killer's into their own Anti-tunnel / Slug balancing catagories when it comes to adding new systems or even perks. I mean let's be honest, majority of tunneler's are mobility killer's and the ptb anti-tunnel changes would have been more ideal for them vs non mobility m1 killer's.
It's easy to forget all the new content, tbh.
Don't know how strong she will be, but I really like the new Killer's design and Vee is such a cutie. And it's gonna be fun to whip out my tambourine and play it in the face of the angry hornet's nest of tunnelling Killers that BHVR have now whipped up into a frenzy for us. Silver linings and all that…
But yeah, feels like we only just got the Walking Dead yesterday and yet here it is, more content… Phew.
Being told that it's a major problem for killers to slug, but that it's 100% awesome if survivors want to force the killer to slug, was such a massive double standard. If slugging is so bad, then killers should be able to remotely hook survivors off the ground, as one of their rewards for avoiding tunneling.
And nerfed basekit BBQ, that survivors could easily dodge, and often revealed zero survivors…. was such an insultingly bad "reward" for avoiding tunneling.
The real concern now is whether they'll actually follow through on slugging and Tunnelling, given how quickly they backed down. And let’s be honest, it also reveals which side of the equation they’re more invested in. When killer mechanics get pushback, it’s a pause and rethink. When survivor QoL gets pushback, it’s a full retreat.
I'd like to start a full band with One-Two-Three-Four and Bardic Inspirtation but I'm worried fun might be illegal.
I think this was one of the biggest takeaways from this PTB, actually incorporating the various strengths and weaknesses of killers into elements of the game, especially when they will affect all of them in every match. The most we've seen of this are things like cages not following (un)hooking rules, or nurse having stuff made into special attacks to prevent being able to utilize M1 perks. There is potential for more elements to have variable strength based on specific factors like that, and using it as a means to help the weaker killers more while reducing exploitation potential on the stronger ones would be one of the single biggest normalizations they could do to address the game's balance. Then again, survivor audio has been coming along "great" so it could very well have just been a fluke.
Fun actually is illegal, only if you play as survivor though.
At least, for those of us who got to test it out in a normal manner, the changes really didn't feel too bad.
I made a much more in-depth post about the anti-tunnel feature in the PTB feedback section if you want to read my verdict on the matter.
For what its worth, I really hope they don't scrap the idea, because there were a lot of good changes in this test patch.
Here is my breakdown of the anti-tunnel, after 20+ matches worth of observing how it played out.
Do it! Already cooking up a "make some noise" build of my own:
One-Two-Three-Four + Bardic + Red Herring or Diversion + Blast Mine.
My escape rate's gonna to go through the floor and my teammates will probably hate me, but it will totally be worth it. Hopefully I can get at least one other Survivor to jam out with me.
I did not say that.
Did you find the system to be perfect in the PTB? You could find no room for improvement?
Oh hell yeah. Scene Partner for vocals too.
Yeah that's what I want, like a 4man all with instruments having a jam session. You just need to hope you land a lighthearted killer.
You know who's bringing out Scene Partner for that occasion 😇
looks the other way, whistling the tune of a certain lute
We need to get the band together fr. This must happen.
Great. They're going to take an overwhelmingly good patch that only needed a few minor tweaks out back and neuter it into oblivion, and survivor will continue to be a miserable experience 80% of the time because the majority of killers never actually learn how to play the game and rely exclusively on tunneling/camping/slugging. And it only took a couple days for them to back down. Thanks, BHVR.
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
I'd say they're consistent. The consistency just has a wee bit of a slant in one direction.
They're not inconsistent though. They listened for days, weeks even, to all the people claiming that it wasn't a problem and survivors were just whining about nothing whatsoever.
And they're listening to that exact same group now.
Apparently, they listen to feedback volume when it's a hundred alt accounts with single digit lifetime posts spamming ai slop all over every forum here.
I thought all of that was against forum rules, and it's clearly stated in the forum rules, but apparently, that's what it takes to get them to change the patch notes.
I don't think AI posts on here is the sole reason for their decision.
They've stated before more than once, that they don't just look at a single site only, but across multiple. So places like Reddit, Tiktok, Twitter, the official forums, Youtube, Steam discussions, etc.
That doesn't change the fact that they ignored feedback.
And, for the record, the crows and go next are literally mechanics that "dictate what counts as playing the game", "punish the player for playing 'incorrectly'", and "have abuse situations that were (and are) not considered".
Me saying it's "inconsistent" is putting it very mildly. Whether they intended to or not, that's the bare minimum perception the community can take from these two, back to back, patch reactions.
Trying to say otherwise is denying reality at this point.
I think the complaint is that the finish line has been moved, they have appeased the killer base and made an empty promise to the survivor base.
"For the release of Sinister Grace, we will hold back those features (and their associated perk changes) to iterate on some adjustments based on your feedback. We will test these features again in an upcoming PTB and will release them live when we believe they are ready."
Now that the complaints were rewarded, no matter what the devs do now, the killer mains and social media people will light up if behavior touches tunneling or slugging.
They could have just adjusted the numbers or changed the incentives in future updates, however now, we will unfortunately never know how these changes could have affected the greater dbd community.
I think this is a large change to how the game plays. Probably larger than anything except the EGC, in recent memory.
Getting it mostly right, the first time, is important. I think pushing anti-tunnel and slug with a new chapter and a killer rework was a mistake.
You say as killer perks have gotten murdered almost every chapter
Not really surprised. I think the screams were heard as far as Mars
Perks on both sides are constantly getting nerfed, adjusted, ot reworked. Streetwise was one of my go-tos. It was totally ruined recently and mostly died in silence thanks to the bug in the rework taking precedence. Vigil is also on the chopping block.
But in terms of game changes, recent examples like fog vials and this patch were all killer-sided. And survivors are STILL getting DC penalties for getting tunneled too fast.
Also, the only even slightly meta killer perk to have gotten nerfed in the last year is Franklin's. The killer meta has been stale to the point of tedium for years. I have no idea what this dude is talking about. If you go all the way back to a year ago, I guess you could include DMS changed to only affect one gen at a time while having its duration buffed. After that… Sable's patch and the mangled nerf? So March of 2024 for the last significant nerf. To Sloppy Butcher/Gift of Pain.
Well also, BOON: CIRCLE OF HEALING!!!!! …they gutted that and all healing around the same time. The discourse on 3-genning was happening during and before that nerf, yet it took them 18 months to address it with the 8-kick rule. Survivor concerns are not addressed with urgency.
Yeah I have to say, as much as I hate chase and second chance builds on survivors, I find the killer builds mostly boring as all hell. At least with survivor you do see some fun, creative, or memey builds. Killer is just regression and aura almost entirely.
Boons are a tragedy. I love little objectives like blessing them or doing invocations but none of it's worth the trouble.
Not surprised, just disappointed. Not going to hold my breath that they'll release a version that's actually useful. I find it funny they arent putting out the antitunnel/slug because "too punishing for the killer" but a killer forcing the go next penalty on a survivor by quickly tunneling them out is not too punishing for the survivor. Good to know losing a match is too punishing but having a penalty forced on you that puts you in time out from playing the game at all is perfectly fine. 😂
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.I'll always remember how there were posts worrying that SWFs would bring four plot twists so they could instantly abandon and lose, and BHVR made sure to say in the patch notes this wouldn't work, but the whole idea of the killer delaying gens and the survivors getting sacrificed was completely missed.
I was happy to see that this is delayed. We want BHVR to test stuff and respond to feedback about it, so it's good to hear that they're being thoughtful about this.
What makes the anti go next even more pathetic when you consider this cancellation of anti tunnel - the tunnelling is so bad currently that their own anti go next system was classing people who had been tunnelled out as "going next" and punished them for it. Now it seems to me if your anti go next system is picking up people being tunnelled out as something that should be punished, then tunnelling is a MASSIVE problem in the game but we can't punish killers because they have to be rewarded at all times for absolutely everything.