About the "slug meta"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInEGwk2TtE
Just wanted to share this here.
The perfect video (at least in my opinion) on why slug became meta and what needs to be considered to fix it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInEGwk2TtE
Just wanted to share this here.
The perfect video (at least in my opinion) on why slug became meta and what needs to be considered to fix it.
Read THIS post.
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Comments
I'll start by saying you once asked me never to tag you in a post again, but being you tagged me first I'm going to respond.
"wasting time coming for a save"So I typed over 800 words and you pull out the ending of a sentence? You're missing a number of things
1: I'm responding to a video. The video creator said he gained nothing from the chase, implying the chase was worthless. That's untrue. You're treating my words as if they are not in response to a specific statement.
2: Without the survivor perspective we have no idea on the time trade off. This is a pure presumption on your part and the creators. Did the survivor with the flashbang chase around instead of doing gens? Did the survivor who went down do so because they knew the save was nearby, and if it wasn't they could have extended the chase more? Not to mention the risks associated with getting spotted (like the killer did in the second discussed game) or the trade off in what other perks could have been run.
3: You try to make this about MMR, but the killer here won the match, with Trapper, after a flashbang save. Either this isn't a high MMR match or discussions about mythical high MMR are overrated.
4: Much like the video, it ignores a 'what if' the perk selection was different. If instead the killer slugs, but instead of flashbang the survivor has We're Gonna Make It, the killer still loses out. There seems to be a lot of confusion among some killers over differences in discussion between 'good strategy' and 'good strategy given the meta'.
The things you say about mindset are just kind of presumptive and silly.
Yeah, they don't draw the obvious conclusion that these perks like Resurgence, Second Wind, Moment Of Glory, Clean Break, are pseudo instaheals. If you last long enough in chase, or not even in chase, you get automatically healed while potentially progressing the objective at the same time. That is beyond broken. That's like a killer perk that regresses all gens as long as a survivor is on hook. It forces your opponent to commit to a bad option just to play around another bad option. If they let you go, you get healed for free. If they chase you as to not give you the free heal, you're still forcing them to choose to chase you, and you might still get healed.
The other perks aren't bad either. You said it. 30s of 10% Haste and extra time on hook? What's to scoff about that?
Damn!
I didn't thought this topic would get so much replies.
Thanks guys! 😁
Now I'm sure it got the attention from someone from BHVR team.
"And now you want to take away slugging?"
That's EXACTLY what I've been thinking too!
They took killer resources away one by one until we got at slugging and after they take it away too… what will remain?
People need to want to play killer or this game literally dies.
Just like the guy says in the video: BHVR asked A LOT of stuff about slugging in their last survey, but only from the survs perspective.
Another VERY IMPORTANT thing that is said in the video and also by other people here is 2nd chance perks being weaponized against the killer.
They are suppose to be anti tunnel damn it.
Yeah, world's gone mad. They really don't look at things from the killer POV, or they apparently play it but never go against a single decent team. I've got inflamed passion for this role, but dang if I don't feel like I'm not being unreasonable here. The only thing I see killers really having once slugging is nerfed is... hoping to stall enough with No Way Out/Remember Me? That's really the only alternative I've been able to experiment with besides slugging. But it's like, how does nobody see the time crunch we're on? They're literally balancing off the top 10 killer players and off brand new survivor players. That's the real unbalance in this game.
"Stall" is another keyword here.
Killer gen perks getting nerfed while nothing is done to surv ones. Slugging is a more efficient way to counter gen rush.
They make killer gen perks don't stack with each other, but surv ones still can.
A friend these days had a match that a surv was using Deadline, Hyperfocus and Stakeout and gens melted FAST.
Damn, even one surv with Prove Thyself is enough for a "BIG DAMAGE" and if for some reason you don't find this surv and don't let him/her touch gens or even tunnel him/her out you lose.
Exponential is such a bad perk that it is a non-issue.
MFT is pretty bad as well. Extremely situational.
WGLF is okay, I guess.
Are we still up defending tunneling by killers double standards?
It is endlessly amusing that you ignore the facts of the game. So far as we know, Killers are doing very well.
Do not equate your own personal struggles with the state of the game at large.
DS is fine. Have you considered NOT tunneling? I would prefer it if OTR simply applied Intangibility until a Conspicuous Action was performed, but if they are bothering you, they are not progressing the game.
Once again, unless you are trying to tunnel.
DH is a complete non-issue. It is a poor perk.
Iron Will is completely fine. Sounds already don't work half of the time, if you can only track by sound then you've probably not had a good time anyway.
I think you are getting your own personal struggles with the game confused with the state of the game at large. For example, even during 2018, when the game was truly Survivor-sided, I did not escape often. I had a difficult time looping Killers and was often upset at my performance.
That does not mean I thought the game was Killer-sided and that everything was stacked against me and that those nasty X-sided players were out to get me.
Why?
I highly doubt it will bring any new information to light.
It will simply be someone coping.
People are doing it because it works. Survivors are not used to having to play around slugging.
It obliterates Solo Q without any difficulty and can do well against most casual SWF's too. On top of that, it puts Killers in a position of power, which people love no matter the role.
All this will accomplish is getting slugging nerfed to the ground. On the bright side, BHVR will finally address a playstyle that is extremely uninteractive. On the bad side, they will kill it.
sorry but I’m not interested in just biased killer pro points.
Especially towards the end where you just did the usual “killer oppressed victims survivor op” thing you always do.
“That's also just the perks, i didn't even mention the:
basekit bt and anti camps were objectively healthy changes to the game. You think face camping bubbas and survivors getting downed as soon as they touch the ground was healthy for the game? Maybe if your biased towards killer (which you are)
“Killer perks have been nerfed and nerfed”
Yeah killers still use those perks. Sorry that you lose maybe one more extra game yet still win most of them. This isn’t 2017 dbd anymore. Quit acting like it
“Because we're scared.”
This is a new low💀
Imagine the devastation of losing your w streak as killer. Truly terrifying.
Long set up time, small effective radius, and easily found snuffable before anyone can get value
And if the killer doesn't slug,, a completely dead perk slot. Also limits the area where survivors can take chase, making the killers job of getting downs easier.
I think you are reading into a bias that you perceive is there, especially based off your comments.
Nowhere in that did i say that basekit BT and AFC are bad for the game. Actually i think the concept of them is good for the game, but they went about it the wrong way. They are just another piece of evidence of the devs actively discouraging killers from hooking survivors. Think of it this way, we go from a time where none of these things existed to:
All of these things are things that actively punish killers for hooking. While rewarding survivors for getting hooked.
Look at a perk like NOED for example. Survivors often complain about NOED because it "rewards the killer for losing" right? It rewards the killer for playing badly in a way where they can often secure at the very least a kill if not more if survivors play altruistically, all for what? The killer did nothing skillful to activate it, it just happens.
Now look at the survivor side of things. Survivor gets outplayed, and is now downed, but there are a ton of things that now are given to the survivor when they get hooked/unhooked for free, that just HAPPEN. Nothing skillful on the survivor side was done to get them, the survivor in fact got OUTPLAYED and the killer correctly progressed their objective, and now the killer is "punished" for doing so, through the survivor activating a ton of perks, and the killer spending a significant amount of time trying to get that hook.
In terms of AFC and basekit BT, i don't think those were the right approach. What i would have done, was create a system by which tunneling and camping becomes IMPOSSIBLE (not just punished) from a gameplay perspective, while also using that as an opportunity to encourage killers to hook survivors. So my proposed solution is usually to create some mechanic by which, survivors who are unhooked are effectively immune from the killer and are automatically healed when the effect is over. While also making survivors share the 1st hook state. Meaning that even if you hard tunnel, you'd still have to hook someone 6 times in order to remove them from the game.
On the flip side, something would need to be done basekit for killers to reward them for completing their objective. Generally i think this would work best as a "when a survivor is unhooked, they are put on a "timeout" where they can't progress the game and can't be targeted by the killer" But, once that timeout is over they get fully healed and are back in the game. Basekit get kick regression gets buffed up to 10%, basekit regression gets buffed to 0.5 c/s instead of 0.25 c/s. Basekit corrupt that lasts say, 30 seconds, a basekit corrupt on totems that lasts say, 30 seconds.
Then from there you can rebalance things like gen speeds in relation to these changes i they need to be increase or decreased. And you have new mechanics by which perks can be made. Meanwhile you can go rework all of the survivor anti-tunnel and anti-camp and the killer gen defense perks to do something more interesting.
The reliance on gen defense perks for example is obvious, the game is balanced around it. Similar to survivors taking anti-tunnel perks, the game is balanced around it. This is evidenced by things like chaos shuffle, where gens fly super fast, and survivors get tunneled super quick. Because both sides know the other side likely doesn't have the perks to deal with that thing.
All i'm saying is, the devs themselves have led us here to this new meta around slugging by punishing killers for going for hooks time and time again all in an effort to deal with tunneling, without actually looking at WHY the killers are tunneling to begin with. And instead of actually making tunneling impossible, and balancing the game around that fact, they instead bandaid the problem with perks and half baked basekit mechanics.
To check your biases a little bit and maybe look at things from a different perspective?
I said the biggest factor is killer cooldowns buff and survivor movement speed nerf. Slugging is more effective when you can down someone and immediately go do something else cuz before you could hit them and survivor could make it to the other side of the map now the can only make 10meters of distance. im saying thats the biggest factor. It has nothing to do with perks its because the base mechanics allow for it to be more effective now.
'Wasting so much time'
Yeah, their own. Across the map, get a full heal, cross the map again, take two hits, and then you're down on the ground and incapacitated. For most of that, you've got another person you're chasing so this 'offensive use' fella has given you a TON of free pressure by not doing gens.
Isn't that the number one deflection killers use nowadays, that soloQ is only bad because survs don't do gens?
But if someone spends a full minute fishing for a bodyblock, that's suddenly OP as hell.
Also, I stand by it: If you get hit by DS, that is 100% your own fault. Nothing can force you to pick up, so if someone's bodyblock baiting, leave 'em slugged.
Also also, if they ran across the map, got a heal, ran across the map again, lurked to find the opportune bodyblock moment and then had to get two hits in, DS is expired.
I gave it a shot and I was disappointed.
The responses made it far clearer what exactly I was dealing with.
Here are some highlights:
"All the lame anticamp and second chance crap led to this. Basekit BT is an invisible 5th perk for surv nerds. Anticamp is basically Deliverance without the broken.. 6tb perk"
"My biggest problem isn’t even second chance perks it’s survivors being able to heal in seemingly no time like i chase someone hit them lose them for a short period then their full health again"
"I have ptsd from YEARS of meta DS, DH, BT and Unbreakable when I was playing killer.."
A lot of these players do not understand the game. Some of that is not their fault, the game does not tell you a LOT of things and it is difficult to learn. We do not all have the luxury of time. However, I think these comments paint a picture of the general attitude of people who enjoy playing like this or think it is absolutely necessary.
(sidenote, I got into an argument with the original video poster and he deleted his comments with me????)
Killer's cooldowns haven't been buffed, and survivor movement speed hasn't been nerfed in the last years. In fact, perks like STBFL were nerfed. What are you talking about?
And here is the key that you people are not getting (even though you meant something else with it). Tunneling, 3-genning, the genkick meta, regression perk stacking… all those things were always about gaining time. Survivors with good game sense that coordinate a minimum don't leave most killers with a long enough time window to do anything, and min gen times have been a problem ignored for years now.
Now, after years of BHVR making any other option for the killer to gain time minimal with nerfs and base mechanics, plus rewarding survivors with their stronger perks when they lose chase, plus making it even easier for survivors to make all the time the killer spent in his last chase go to waste, etc., some killers have come to the conclusion that it is better to simply not hook for all the reasons mentioned in the video, like not having to employ up to 20 seconds picking up and walking to the hook just to give survivors their stronger perks and the chance to screw you over. Like you said, you simply "down someone and immediately go do something else".
It's not rocket science. I don't get why the need in denying it is when, again, slugging and Knockout are not precisely new things added to the game recently, and it's just now that people are going "Yep, slugging is the way".
How is tunneling double standards? It's a strategy. Killers don't say you're not allowed to gen rush, or that you're toxic for doing so. They just think it's stupid. 5 gens in 5 minutes shouldn't be a thing.
Except hooking is different? It is legit just better for the survivors if you hook them rather than slug them. Hooking them makes you take more time to hook, they get their unhook perks and the basekit changes to hooks for survivors.
I'm sorry, but if you had a game you thought was pretty darn fun, and then balance change after balance change threatened to ruin it, you can use whatever word you want, but yes, you would be scared to lose it. Not lose win streaks, strawman. Lose the fun in it. I don't keep win streaks because it's fake bragging rights, and that's because every 5 matches 1 decent team will just take the streak away. Whoever that doesn't happen to is just lucky or smurfing. Sorry. Good survivors have to throw to lose, because their gen efficiency alone leaves the killer insufficient time to kill them. Y'all can keep doing the trash talk and buzz words thing, but it's not a legit logical argument. That's why this game is stagnant, because the devs do think that stuff is like a really good argument.
That's clearly untrue.
There are Killer winstreaks in the thousands. Hell, Clown has a winstreak near 500, iirc.
Even though I'd probably be miserable, I will get back on DBD after having not played in 8 months just to see if I can win the mythical 6th match you claim is impossible to win, if you'd like that
Patch 6.1 killer actions were buffed and survivor sprint after speed was reduced is what made this strategy better. I really don't think they need to stack 4 regression perks and make survivors have to do 8 generators worth of progress, these gen perks were rightfully nerfed. Killers have been slugging before and since then and the problem is only more complained about now since they added slugging for the mori. People were getting slugged and bled out too during the gen kick meta in fact probably more than they are now so there is no reason to think having perks killer perks nerfed is the reason. They added conspicuous actions to the anti tunnel perks too survivors were nerfed way more then killers so I dont want to hear how killers are not rewarded for hooking. The slugging is just easy because survivor dont have as many tools do deal with it unlike tunneling and camping. Killers will always be insufferable if they cant be punished for it, it has nothing to do with rewarding them.
When you really break down the numbers, it makes you wonder how survivors ever lose a match. If a killer takes 60 seconds to chase and hook a survivor, the survivors could have completed 180 seconds worth of generators out of the 450 (base) seconds of total generator progress needed. Remember, that 450 seconds can be divided by 4 and completed concurrently.
And if you assume 60 seconds for the total time of a killer finding a survivor, chasing them, and hooking them, it takes a killer 540 seconds to get their first kill without tunneling (2 hooking all survivors, which is what they want) and 720 seconds to get a 4k. And unlike the survivors, this time is cannot be divided. The killer must go through it all, unless the survivors make serious mistakes.
6.1 was released almost 3 years ago, it was a 0.3 seconds buff and a 0.2 seconds nerf, it was precisely after that patch that they added and removed all the things that make slugging worth more than hooking now, and on top of that, Knockout and slugging were exactly the same then as they are now.
The coping is real.
Nah conspicuous actions were added that patch and killers have only gotten stronger since then and survivors weaker. Anything else is just lying to yourself. Killers are just looking for excuses to justify how easy it is to not get punished for bullying solo que.
It would be 120 seconds, assuming Survivors spawn on gens and do nothing but gens. One player is being chased, after all.
No team plays perfectly, not even comp teams. It is rather unrealistic to assume the absolute worst-case scenario for every situation when the average is plainly seen in official statistics.
While you're right that the starting numbers are very much in the survivors' favor, they shift more toward the killer as the match goes on. Even though your scenario involves 2 hooking everyone before getting a kill, chases will also get shorter as more resources get used up and/or weak links get chased, just like how they could be longer than a minute at the start. The game is too volatile to put into hard numbers like that, since advantage can change drastically with every interaction, and scales from one side to the other over the course of the match inherently. And thats before all the crazy variables caused by loadouts/powers/maps/etc.
So let me guess, you are the top MMR compared to the rest of us, in the same way TrU3 is peak MMR and losing doesn't mean that he played badly, it just means the game is unfair so therefore he has to slug, right?
Even in the worst days for killer, you would still actually win most of your matches. Sure, you may have a run of bad games but if you are experienced you will know that this game can be very unfair due to pure RNG alone. However most of your opponents are going to be casual moderate to low skill survivors. It is very rare you face actual top tier survivors most of the time, no matter what you think your MMR is.
I may not be as high MMR as you or others as I just don't care that much anymore… but as I approach 6k hours I would like to think I am still reasonably competent enough to somewhat understand the game.
he said twins was a bad killer like a day ago….thats all I need to say
Well if it was "bad" as in terrible design that encourages the most unfun play style, I would agree lol.
Look I am sure he is not a bad player, I see he must have been playing at least as long as I have been but I just think some people expect easy wins and don't take losses well, nor do they ever consider that maybe they didn't play that well or perhaps they also just get really unlucky with RNG but that affects both sides.
Kicking a 3 gen with overtuned kick perks and hit and run tactics is indeed low skill in terms of macro and micro.
I didn't say it is "too strong". I said it was obnoxious to stall the game for 40 mins+.
Even killer main content creators made fun of this strat about the "'chess Merchant" or the chess killers.
"I'm like a chess player, I kick a 3gen and I do hit and run for 45 minutes and eventually of survivors are too impatient I win".
Yeah great memories…
For slugging I said it requires skill for killer, indeed, and it's risky, so I'm ok with it. Just solo Q needs info.
I saw his myers game where he poped t3 far away from survivor then complained when they had the time to hop in locker. Don't sell yourself short lol, arguing with someone who can't even play a simple killer.
And mmr, I went vs big streamers who play this game day and night for years, even when I go on L streaks as surv. Just the other day I went vs their guru and his obnoxious 'god build', that is why I laugh at "top mmr" claims. Most killer streamers are being fed fodder and have the nerve to complain even tho they rarely if ever lose.
This game and it's community is a joke. Whoever won't admit the power role switched a while ago is just pushing bias at this point, why shouldn't I troll or use strawman? What is the point of having serious arguments anymore when in the end everyone wants their side to stomp. I am not going to waste effort here anymore arguing with people who want to nerf survivors even more. I will just be an ezhole like they are.
That is beyond broken.That's like a killer perk that regresses all gens as long as a survivor is on hook. It forces your opponent to commit to a bad option just to play around another bad optionIt would be crazy if there was a killer perk that regressed all gens at any point the survivors let go of them, and the only way to deal with it was for the survivors to go into a lose lose situation of either living with guaranteed regression or wasting time on a side objective that might play into other killer perks that the survivors have no way to know about ahead of time.
I can't even imagine how a perk like that would RUIN the game.
Honestly I am not that invested in arguing too much about this game anymore either… I used to care a lot but after all these years I am not that invested anymore. But yeah, I do think a lot of people overestimate their own skill and I definitely think the power role has flipped from survivor now.
Because they are allergic to doing gens. There's a reason that these efficient high level SWF squads usually get 4 man out with 1 or 2 hooks. And then the answer is always "those teams are rare though"
yeah. rare. so rare that i am end up playing vs it every 8 games or so.
I'm actually just confused on definitions here.
Out of how many games would something need to happen to be rare? 1 out of 8? Well that definitely not common. Rare, unusual, uncommon, it seems to be splitting hairs on that point.
rare is like 1/20 games.
They are also same ones who make 1 million posts and wonder why people swf to even stand a chance winning matchs or wonder why we are in constant dc outbreaks.
Yeah I agree some people it aint even worth even replying too, some just sits on my ignore list specially a certain qoute people who probably never play survivor in their life and this game bit by bit just am drifting from me that even the rift pass did not gatcha me either. I much and prefer cartoon identity v/ffxiv and way too many other games to list here in every way lol.
We've been telling BHVR for years how to correctly implement basekit Unbreakable into the game. They just don't care.
The “Slug Meta” is not real.
it is an artificial “meta” that works because survivors are not bringing anti-slug perks. The minute they do, even the best sluggers in the game can’t do it for free.
played against a slugularity yesterday with plot twist, exponential, circle of healing, and DS.
got a 3 out that could’ve been a 4 out. And it was a solo queue game.
Again the slug meta is not real, it’s just taking advantage of survivors not running anti-slug. But when the meta shifts, you shouldn’t be surprised that it’s no longer as effective as content creators claim.
Slugging, just like tunneling, is a good strategy to use Situationally to build pressure. It’s not an instant win button for killer when survs are prepared. The “Slug Meta” preys on bad solo survs, which are the majority of the player base. That’s why it seems effective, when it’s really showing the weakness of solo queue surv.
Just because it's a temporary or not as common playstyle doesn't mean it's not gearing up to be a meta.
People generally do not use anti-slugging builds or perks because most killers typically pick up. I tried running the "small pp build" yesterday and I got use out of my Unbreakable with Soul Guard once. I got more use out of Decisive Strike, lol. Most killers that you go against are the type that downs, picks up, and hooks.
I think the Knock Out and slugging builds are in a way dying because most survivors know to push gens, hop into a locker when they recognize it's in play, or the killer in question doesn't have as much experience and notice it via YouTube.
I went against a Freddy with Knock Out two days ago I believe and he got no pressure whatsoever because of how he was playing and began hooking my random due to it.
I still think the perk needs a nerf or a timer placed on it - but regardless, it is a "meta" in the same way that popular streamers are pushing it but people are not as skilled as let's say Tru3, so they typically suffer from getting kills.
”Just because it's a temporary or not as common playstyle doesn't mean it's not gearing up to be a meta.”
Meta literally means most efficient tools available so if they’re the most efficient, would they not be the most common?
Something can be efficient at doing what they need to solo-queue, yet be ineffective towards SWF.
That's why I said in my post that they are curb stomping solo-queue and when going against a competent SWF that can deal with it - it's much harder. It's why you see many people complain about SWF - if SWF did not exist, slugging builds would definitely be more meta as it is strong against people with no comms.
I don’t think you fully read my first comment on this thread. Because I made the same point but it doesn’t have to be a swf it can be a good solo group with the right perks. Again proving that the slug meta is not real it preys on general unpreparedness for the strategy.
Okay, we can argue semantics. Regardless, it's been an uptick and people are not going to equip anti-slugging builds for a 1 outta 5 games where someone equips slugging builds.
It also has now become a thing since Thrill has been nerfed and it's been a killer's mantra that gen regression is weak, when in fact it's not.
We will see in the next few weeks as it's still a relatively new "meta".
This is just post hoc rationalisation and making excuses. Nothing about perks changed in the past roughly 6+ months before this started being a thing.
The only change that occurred anywhere near the time this started is the extra 10 seconds hook timer (8.2.0 - august 2024). Which, by the way, only comes into play if the killer is camping or lurking near hook to tunnel. Suddenly all of the complaints about instant unhooking to keep killer pressure at a minimum are forgotten and people lose their minds because they can't conceive of not camping or tunneling in this game.
As for pop, this is the ultimate excuse and is absolutely. Not. The reason people are slugging in any way. Here's a timeline for pgtw in about the past year:
6.1 (July 2022): 20% of current + 2.5% total (base kit) this version was still meta for years and "the best regression available" after they fixed cobruption.
7.0 (may 2023): 30% of current and 2.5% total (base kit)
7.5 (January 2024): 30% current and 5% total (base kit)
8.0 (may 2024): 20% of current and 5% of total (base kit)
The version we have now (8.0+) is objectively better than when it was considered a meta perk and one of the best in 6.1.0. There's also been no change to pop in almost a year, so there's zero excuse for it to be included in a recent "slugging meta" in the past couple months.
If you're going to lie about the reasons, then WGLF was buffed in 8.3.0 (September 2024) and then the extra bonus healing slugged survivors speed was then nerfed soon after back to 100% (8.3.2 in October 2024). Which is just about when this all started.
Seems like if we're just going to say anything on this topic then WGLF changes had far more to do with this than pop ever did. (Which is still probably not much imo, but this while argument of yours and similar ones from others is just simply wrong).