Gen Speeds
Goddamn it, could we do something about this? Get in one chase and a gen is done, turn around and another gen is done, down someone and yet another gen is done.
This is absolutely asinine. The winning strategy for killers is slug and tunnel and that's if they can catch someone holding W.
Too. Much. Fun.
Comments
That's generally the first chase, when you have the least pressure. From that point on, you have one on the hook, one in chase, one rescuing/healing, and one on gen. That's a 66% reduction in survivor objective speed, and they have half the game left to go.
Lots of people like to point at the 'first down = 3 gens scenario', but I think half of them don't realise what that actually fully entails. Plus, if that weren't the case, think of what camping would do in overall game balance.
After this about 20 seconds later I got in a chase a gen pops(1 left) the unhook happen i get a hook. So I'm at 2 hooks 4 gens done and my chase were between 40-60 seconds
What did I do wrong or what could I have done to not have 4 gens pop in 2 min
Don't just say run perk A or run perk A/B combo i don't have ever perk on ever killer
Your chase wasn't between 40-60 seconds, your chase was twice that. You just got outplayed by the survivor you were chasing.
Um no they weren't i would of drop chase at that point. Now on that point the 3 chase i spend about 20 seconds to long and left it because I didn't have a hit after a good minute and the last gen popped.
Which is why I like Pinhead right now. The secondary objective needs to be completed, or the entire team suffers. Sure, it needs to be tweaked, but the passive nature of it is nice.
Exactly it doesn't have to be some extreme change just to slow the game down a little. Saying that a killer has to run slow down perks just to there is enough time for them to play isn't a good thing
Thats kind of my point to make slow down perks useful they have to be pair with a second slow down perk which is already half the killers load out. With ruin/undying most bring PGTW as a back up to when they get destroyed so thats 3 of 4 perk slots just to slow down the game
I think gen speeds are a bit of a problem when you get into skilled survivors against a skilled killer even, and SBMM is going to highlight this issue much more. I doubt the developers will really do much about it.
The real issue is the introduction of things that exist purely to waste a killers time. Second chance perks, breakable walls are a big offender, the size of maps or any map that does not let you directly move from point A to point B (ie indoor maps). Several things all coming together to result in many of the killers, and even some of the good ones, not really having the ability to have enough time to deal with what's being thrown at them.
What's stopping killers from still camping and tunneling if gen speeds get slowed?
Back with old undying + ruin many killers were still ruthless in their camping and tunneling and did not care at all about whether survivors had a fair chance or not, even with quite possibly the most universally oppressive perk combo (Usually with Tinkerer as well) to help "slow down the game to a reasonable pace".
I'm sorry but if gens were significantly slowed down or an extra mandatory objective was added it would make face camping first survivor on hook til death more effective. People who want to camp and tunnel just to ruin one or two players fun would take that and run with it. Not everyone will play nice.
run 4 slowdown perks for another 10 years until they adress the issue
SBMM isn't live yet? Wow, lobbies keep getting worse on rank reset.
Yes, this is sarcastic, in case you're not that sufferable (again, just in case). My matches have just been haywire; perfectly great matches against Survivors on my level, and then matches against toxic SWFs all equipped with flashlights and BT (which is tolerable under the right circumstances, but still irritating). And of course there's the odd 'why-are-all-the-Survivors-crouch-walking-everywhere' matches in the mix. Great. These times are worse than ever before.
Something should be done with how easy it is for some killers to wipe the floor with 5 gens still up. A killer should never become so powerful with perks that gens can't be done.
No the original ruin was horribly designed.
It punished newbie survivors while in the same time did practically nothing against experienced survivors.
I don't know what games you guys are playing, but in more than 75% of my survivor games, no generators are getting done unless I'm doing them. If I'm lucky, 3 are done before two people are dead. As killer, I win most of my games pretty handily unless I'm playing like garbage or vs'ing a seriously solid team. The game is easier now for killers than it has ever been, at least where the average match is concerned.
If you cant deny gen just make sure you win during the end game with noed and blood warden
2 manning gens is already a problem for killer, even with the "penalty" Sure you don't get 5 gens done in 3 hooks like you can if everyone spreads out. But you will get one gen done per hook assuming everyone can last 30 seconds in a chase leaving the killer with 5 hooks and a game over.
They actually need to increase gen time for 2 survivors from 47 to 60.
You're not wrong. Killers are already at a big disadvantage when they face against a SWF, and with perks like prove thyself and items like toolboxes and brand new parts, coupled with more than one survivor on a generator, the speed at which generators are finished is ridiculously quick. But like others have stated, finding the right balance is a tricky thing indeed. You don't want to make the game impossible for survivors, but at the same time not broken for Killers.
Perhaps the right balance would be having a lesser cool down on Killer powers. I don't know, but bloodlust isn't cutting it anymore.
Devs will nerf it don’t worry. Already seeing people whining about Deadlock.
Problem is big maps plus no other objectives. No Devs, dull totems are NOT an objective, do not sit here and lie to me that these matter besides NOED out of like 1 every 10 ish games.
When more gens get done, let’s say 3, make a Entity Key spawn that is needed to unlock the remaining generators. 2 keys spawn on the map in 6 set locations, and when a key is used a new one spawns after 20 seconds. A Survivor who doesn’t use they key after 1 minute loses the key and a new one respawns.
I don't want to be forced to use perks i hate using just to slow down the game for few seconds. I hate using corrupted invention since it only helps you at the beginning, i hate using ruin because most of the times its easily cleansed in the first 20 seconds. Ruin + Undying..thats 2 perk slots poof already and most of the cases cleaned really fast. I really dont like using hex perks at all not even NOED but i have to use it since i usually don't have time to get 16 hooks before the doors are open unless the survivors really mess up. ( i get red and purple ranks usually when i play killer)
I want to enjoy the game using perks i enjoy using. Survivors arent forced to use certain perks to win the game as much i feel killers are.
I didn't say just being those two perks... even though I don't run those perks
But that's not the point I saw making
The base regression is (Bad Word) and needs adjusting...
It's a sad state of affairs, until something gets done about it the only 3 killers that can reliably win games without any gen slowdown perks are Nurse, Spirit and Hag.
Yeah... no.
A secondary objective will take off pressure from the killer. Because lets face it, killers are the only ones being pressured unless the killer tunnels.
Just look back at the time between the Undying release and its nerf. The amount of "camping killer" threads was practically non existant. Instead, survivors complained about having to do totems. But instead of celebrating that killers stopped camping&tunneling. They were mad, because they had to do something that nets them between 1000 and 1500 BP for 14 seconds of holding m1.
It's been the survivor standard for ages. Run BT or get camped. Run DS or get tunnelled. Run UB or get slugged.
At least killers get away with only one or two mandatory perks, and a variety, at that.
Here’s the issue, SWF have a much larger advantage than solos do when it comes to gen efficiencies. By changing gen speeds specifically, it would punish solos massively. The way forwards has to be to buff solo survivors, and then buff all the weak/mid tier killers to compensate, which would make the game much more balanced as a whole.
Also, 3 gens are already extremely strong, and making gens take longer would push that to the extreme, especially when combined with ruin or pop.
TLDR the gen speeds aren’t the issue, it’s the balance of the game
"Not everyone will play nice" is no reason to not make changes
Shhh, you said the quiet part out loud.
Gens aren't the issue, everything else is, chasing takes too long because Maps are big and safe AF. The whole gameplay loop for killer is very time consuming vs the efficiency of survivors. Make the game more bearable for killers by giving us smaller maps and redistributing safety for survivors instead of big maps with dead zones and extremely safe zones. END SHIFT W META make survivors actually know how to loop, TEACH LOOPING IN THE TUTORIAL.
It gets rather irritating, holding W. Content creators have have tested the time it takes from a hit to catching up for a down (only holding W) and, if I recall, it's somewhere in the 20s of seconds. That's a quarter gen right there and if three are on separate gens, that's effectively 3/4 of a gen completed in just that one chase.
You think? I have such a hard time finding totems
Lets not pretend killers wouldn't still do it if a secondary objective was added, lol. They would absolutely need nerfed.
This x1000
It would be so much more healthy for the game if they address gen speeds as a whole so you don't HAVE to run gen slowdown perks (my idea would be, buff all gen slowdown perks but make it so none of them can stack and gen slowdown perks sort of become the killer's "exhaustion" perk), then they can address camping in a systemic way that prevents/heavily discourages it.
I don´t have to pretend. It was actually a fact that killers didn´t tunnel or camp during the short period where Undying Ruin was a useful combo. Simply because a camping or tunneling killer wouldn´t have gotten any benefit from it.
Sure, you might always encounter that one basement bubba. Just as we always encounter that one clown who plays on the PTB.
But that isn´t the norm.
I encountered a lot of tunneling and camping killers during that time. Tunneling and camping got much worse when DS was nerfed, not when undying was changed. At least in my games. They would need to nerf killers if a second objective was added.
Well I made a post giving an idea and will post here too, maybe putting a second real objective will help, I proppose making 2 new itens spawn on the match, wires and fuel, spawn 2 at beggining of the match and the rest after 2/3 min, and each gen can only start to be made when place 1 roll of wire and a can of fuel, doing this survivors will be oblidge to find those itens frist, giving time for long chases and such, and since it will spawn only 2 of each at the begging means that 2 survivors can do totems, or group with the ones who found the wires and fuel and make the gen together too ...
Why would killers need to be nerfed? I could understand your argument when killers and survivors were balanced. But survivors already are the power role. This change would be an attempt to make killer more enjoyable. To make it less stressful. Just like the survivor role is.
Tunneling and camping didn´t get any worse after DS was nerfed. Because after all, DS still protects against tunneling, just like it did before. The only people that complained about the DS nerf, was the survivor mains that weaponized it.
First things first: Do not care about the first 2 generators, it's literally impossible for you to protect 7 locations spread over the map, especially if you also have a hex totem you want to protect. The game and the emblem system are designed around 2 generators popping. Focus on the generators that are easier to defend, defending the wrong generators can mean that survivors are able to break any possible 3-gen.
Secondly: the majority of hooking happens between 3-1 generators, because at that point, it's getting difficult for survivor to stay healthy, while also keeping pressure on gens, while you as a killer (should) have a much smaller patrolling area.
Thirdly: you want to keep your hooks preferably as close to the center of your patrolling area, or, if possible, on the complete opposite side of the map(survivors would have to go far away from the gens, meaning only 2 survivors are in your patrol area, making it easier to gain footing on pressure and maybe even having moments of 0 people being able to do gens due to healing/rescuing/chasing/being hooked).
Slugging is fine as long as you dont slug camp too much(1, its a waste of time, 2, you're just being an ass for no reason as of reason 1). Tunneling in public matches is rarely neccesary though, its often much easier and more efficient to focus on 2 survivors early on and get 1 of them on dead hook before you care for a 3rd survivor. Preferably, you should want to ignore the 4th survivor in terms of chase and just make sure they get injured whenever you can injure them, as it forces them to heal up before they rescue teammates.
Plenty of things you can do to avoid gens from going too fast. Gen speeds are not the problem. The lack of killer specific tiles is. There arent really any tiles that can be used effectively against a deathslinger on autohaven(the tiles that can be used are very spread out, the only way to use those tiles is to literally hold W), yet that are very strong against a Myers without Myers being able to mindgame them.
Essentially, we need more killer specific tile generation on maps, where the tiles spawning in rely on mindgaming with and against the killer's kit. What can a Myers do in a Jungle Gym where the pallet can lead directly into the window? It might be a strong tile against all killers, but at least other killers have methods they can use to force a survivor out of that tile, or to force a survivor to drop the pallet early if they mindgamed well. No matter if you have 80 seconds or 120 seconds, if the tiles are impossible to mindgame for killers, they will be looped for eternity. If the tiles are impossible to mindgame against killers, survivors will hold W for eternity.
My favourite tile, that I actually think is the most balanced tile in the game(considering ALL killers, T&L used to be the most balanced tile across all killers untill Doc was introduced), only spawns on Oni's map and Ormond(and maybe on 1 coldwind farm map?). It's the one thats kinda a mix between a T&L and a Jungle Gym. It has a strong window that can be mindgamed and a pallet that is not really useful to constantly use other than to either enter or exit the loop with. It's the only tile where I consider a survivor taking a hit being a mistake, and a killer not getting a hit is a mistake. Any other tile, and it's either due to inevitability, animation locking or the loop being too strong.
Old Ruin still suffered from the being placed in the most asinine places, for most of it's life span gen times were base 100s rather than base 80s. When there decreased the base time of gen repair they effectively took a considerable amount of sting out of it. Which is fine because the perk was worth using and was more consistently effective. At most the only thing that was needed was the removal of good skillcheck penalty, but no one asks for sensible changes.
Where did you get the idea that gens used to be 100 seconds base at any point? At first they were 65 charges and that got changed to 70 charges, then it got changed from 70 charges to 80 charges which is where we've been ever since. And 1 charge = 1 second assuming no speedups, slowdowns or great skillcheck bonuses.
I play killer probably about 2/3 of the time and in my experience gen speeds are really only a big problem against coordinated SWF teams. If you don’t get a down fairly quickly in you first chase, three gens are gone and it’s a huge uphill battle to get more than 1 or 2K after that. I’d love to see a small nerf to gens speeds depending on how many SWF load into a match. Against solos, it’s much more manageable as they aren’t able to easily optimize their gen progress
Gen Speed is fine
Map size is (sometimes) not
RNG is a problem aswell. Sometimes way to many pallets, sometimes way to less.
Original Ruin bought time for all the killers who are not top tier(assuming it wasn't placed in an obvious location, which 9/10 times it was). There's a lot of killers that lack mobility and new ruin is worse than old ruin for them. IMO old ruin also helped the ranking system. Ever since they nerfed it the amount of noobs in red ranks has sky rocketed. Back when old ruin forced you to hit great skill checks it kept these players in their respected ranges. Now we have "red" survivors who think they're pros and they can't even loop.
It actually did get worse because of DS nerf. No, killer is absolutely the power role already unless you're facing a 4 man on comms, but how often does that happen? Killers will need to get adjusted if new objectives are added. You can't leave Spirit, Blight, and Nurse in the game exactly as they are if a secondary objective is added. It would be overkill. This would kill solo survivor.
100% agree I see so many people say "Make gen's take longer" that is the worst idea to fix the issue cause this is how it would play out.
Gens now take longer to repair, Killers keep running the standard slowdown build, Nurse and Blight become unstoppable with these slowdown builds, Survivors start running perks to make gens go faster, they bring toolboxes, BNP, Gen's continue to pop fast, killers complain about gens going too fast, in the end no one is happy and we repeat the cycle of people complaining about gens and survivors.
That's plain wrong. Dev stats showed the kill/escape rate of DS users before and after the nerf.
They don't wary.
Killers haven't been the power role in a very long time. Don't believe me? Just play killer and enjoy your "power" when 2-3 gens get done by the time you get your first hook.
It's not wrong. I'm not talking about kill rates and escapes. Tunneling does happen more. I play both sides equally. Just because a few gens get done quickly does not mean the game is over. Killers are the power role except when they face experienced SWFs that communicate.
Oh so because you get tunneled, the killer is the power role? Take a wild guess on why killers tunnel after losing 60% of the gens during a single (not even long) chase.
My solution to this problem, let me know what you think.
PART 1: MAPS
Pretty simple, just shrink the bigger ones. It creates more loop-oriented gameplay and mitigates the hold-W issue.
PART 2: Early Game Collapse
The biggest issue with genrushing is the first minute or so of the game. Guess the spawns wrong or go to the wrong gen, you're screwed. An Early Game Collapse is needed.
Check my other reply on here, lmk what you think. Hopefully tweaking the maps and the start of trials will achieve this balance
No, but "these changes encourage killers to stop playing nice since those methods will guarantee wins with a quarter of the effort" is.