Otzdarva’s stream today
So Otz set out to prove that NOED is overpowered and more importantly - unfair. As everyone who doesn’t play one side exclusively would tell you.
He decided to play like 90%+ of the EU servers, that being proxy camp, tunnel and NOED.
He was shocked to find that he won game after game after game after game after game. No effort, no skill required, just proxy camp to bait the unhook then tunnel mercilessly with NOED as back up. The survivors all had their “broken” perks, DS, BT etc but it wasn’t enough to escape. He was using Legion too who most people try to claim isn’t a viable killer.
Now you can try to put it on the survivors saying they should “rush gens etc” but you’ve likely got people who just want to unhook their friend so they can enjoy the game, or solos who just want to pip so they NEED the unhook as the game requires you to get it.
This isn’t a shock one bit. I’ve said it many times. Killer takes no skill. Camp, tunnel, NOED and you’ll do really well in most of your games with no effort required.
Now only at the very end did one team manage to escape. He played daft on purpose I think 2/3 made it out, would have been 2 but he purposefully let one go so that would have been a tie. It took a combination of DS and luck offerings for kobes to make it happen. Know why the last team did so well? Because they were a swf, one on the hook told the rest to just rush gens. So one took the sacrifice for the team. That means the gameplay consisted one one person queuing for 7 mins in the lobby just to sit on a hook for 2 mins and be out of the game with a depip. The others just had to hold M1 and hope the gens were done before their friend died. Killer mains in their effort to try and justify winning at any cost say this is fine but we all know its just garbage. Nobody wants to play like that because it’s not fun nor exciting.
I don’t expect anyone here to agree. Forum is mostly full of the most biased killer mains who try to justify anything so long as it favours their side. Otz explains perfectly why NOED is cheap and needs a change. Anyone but the most biased players can see it.
So I guess this is for the dev team. The question is are you willing to be brave enough to shake up the game? Or will fear or change leave it in the state that its in. Killers want more time, survivors want less tunneling. The nature of the game should change based on that.
In b4 “legit strategy” “balanced perk”
Comments
I was also in the stream, alot of the games he won he was using leatherface. As for the last game, one 1 died. He COULD have hooked another survivor but he let the nancy escape because he felt he already lost considering 2 already left through the gate. In that game DS saved 1 survivor and it snowballed. He never once said NOED needs to be changed, people were giving him ideas of how it COULD be changed and he heard them out and liked a few. There were a few games where they broke all the totems and still died. Which is what NOED can be used for, its another way to slow the game down. Just like Ruin, it slows the game down, if you dont like it then find the totem. I play killer and survivor, and as killer the times i ran NOED, survivors only cleansed 1 or 2 totems and i still got a 3 or 4k. I never even needed it. NOED can support killers who cant kill effectively, yes BUT it can also be used to slow down the gens being repaired quickly.
If 4 survivors load in with the intention of "He probably has NOED lets all do totems" then no duh they're going to suffer casualties. That is the point of a perk. Survivors are suppose to be able to do Gens AND totems, its literally another objective and you're even rewarded for doing it.
If Survivors can change the tide of a game with DS, Unbreakable, BT, Adrenaline, and so on and so forth. Why cant NOED?
Oh yes, the infamous omega coordinated 4 random solo survivor squad, which is known for spreading out perfectly and playing in the most efficient manner
NOED is a busted perk, and almost everyone who plays both sides agrees. Doing totems in not reliable counterplay, especially as a solo. The all-or-nothing design means that if you miss one totem it still activates. I've had many matches where I've done 4 totems, couldn't find the last one, and still got hit by NOED. If the killer camps or plays a top tier killer doing totems while juggling objectives is borderline impossible. If I'm playing against a rank 10 killer I don't mind when they use it. If it's a sweaty Freddy or Spirit and everyone barely gets to endgame it feels like bullshit.
If killers really hate 4-man SWF they should advocate changes to perks like NOED to make solo survivor less awful.
So you think it’s reasonable to expect that every survivor can run the killer for multiple gens? I thought this was the problem with the game, and the reason why maps were being reworked and gens slowed? Which is it - survivors should just loop the killer indefinitely to avoid cheesy strats, or survivors need to be nerfed so they can’t loop the killer for extended periods of time?
Yeah punish altruistic playstyles and ensure that survivors all do gens and nothing else, because that's what killer players ask for daily in this forum
You don't need to be SWF to leave a camped survivor on a hook, you only need a brain.
So assuming all survivors will be in separate generators - which is NOT gonna happen,I ensure you - in what world is that healthy gameplay?
How can anyone defend that?
Why is everyone so against Noed. But god forbid we mention andrenline, or any other survivor perk.
The totem counter for solo players is Detectives Hunch, or even Small game since you wouldnt have to wait for a gen to pop.
Or bring a map. NOED receives to much hate to be basekit
I don't understand the point of playing victim here considering that historically half of the posts here have been bitching about survivor perks or survivor gameplay in general, but okay.
The anti-NOED trend is recent because people have been running it more lately. Don't let that fool you though. If you've been here for more than a month, your comment doesn't match reality at all.
killer's objective is to prevent survivors from escaping.
Survivor's objective is to try an escape.
The survivor sided players will happily throw Adrenaline into the trash can if NOED goes. The two perks aren't even close to being on the same level. Adrenaline is a very situational perk. Where if all 4 players are running, 3 of them just wasted it. And 1 of them actually benefited from it (The person being chased.) But in most situations Adrenaline isn't beneficial at all.
You should do a thread about this.
You’re not accounting for the 70 seconds MINIMUM it takes to cleanse all 5 totems. In reality it’s longer than that, and in reality no survivors are 100% optimal and do all gens in the fastest possible time. If they don’t just “Do BoNeS” they get downed by a 119% ms instadown killer.
Easily: once Killers stop getting rewarded for it, they'll stop doing it. I don't do it because it's boring as hell, but I recognize that Killers do it because the survivors flock to the hook like moths to a flame.
Well, if altruistic playstyles are punished that much people will just focus on gens and escape, so I hope the tutorial in your version of the game said "kill only one survivor per trial" because that's what you're getting if that happens
Its not propanganda. The developers have said thats the answer!
Without these people stating the obvious and clear counterplay to noed.
If you want a discussion with only people who share your point of view then what's the point having a discussion in the first place.
People with different opinions? The horror. They say this because the developers have said this
That's not the case at all.
Most facecamping killers do it out of tilt. They want to secure an easy kill because they're at a point where they won't catch survivors in traditional chases. Whether it works to get more kills or not, they'll still do it.
Being effective vs altruistic survivors is just the icing on the cake, and that's on the devs to fix, really.
The devs also said "just get better as killer" after Ruin got reworked and "infinites take skill" a while back. Can we please have some critical thinking and form our opinions without appealing to authority?
Seriously though, people have turned "do bones" into a meme, but that really is the solution. It might not be the most pleasant solution, but a solution it is. I don't understand why people want an easy game every game. I like facing NOED as a survivor because its a challenge.
If it is acceptable that doing 5 generators is the objective for the game, why can't totems be considered a side objective? I feel that most people just want to do their gens and leave, but I don't really find that much enjoyment out of simply pressing m1 in front of a generator. I like to hunt for totems and enjoy the challenge.
I'm totes in favor of re-working NOED completely. Didn't need a streamer to convince me otherwise.
It can't be considered an objective if there's not a progression tracker accessible to all players that have to complete the objective.
Wanna know what the counter is to NOED? Find the totem then save the guy on the hook. How is that soooo hard?
Wanna know something else? Adrenaline gives a free health state completely for free so NOED basically just nullifies it. Both perks are exactly the same.
Another counter to NOED? Don't get caught.
The devs have said NOED is working as intended, the problem is that survivors dont do bines, which leads into one good person doing 3-4 and noone else doing them, then said player getting downed, coming to the forums and screaming how NOED is unfair and toxic like every other killer/perk that survivors hate this week.
I wouldn't call this a different opinion. Going into every topic in the forum and spamming 'DO BONES!' That doesn't really mean you have an opinion. This wasn't even a NOED needs nerf topic! It was about someone on twitch doing an experiment. Lol and still the 'DO BONES!' Thing was posted seconds after the thread. Obviously without reading anything. Yeah we should all value that.
Killers camp because it works most of the time. Why chase survivors when they come to you. Want camping to stop? Quit playing into it.
Camping fix - hooked survivors die and respawn somewhere else on the map. Kindred basekit
Slugging fix - unbreakable base kit
Tunnel fix - see camping fix
DS fix - see camping fix. Wouldn't be needed
Gen rush - made up term.
NOED - totem counter
Both perks are exactly the same, If you can be rewarded for completing your objective, why can't I be rewarded for failing to prevent you completing your objective? :^)
I think OP just thought it would help bring some insight here since people love linking Otz's material when it comes to "OMG gens done in 30 miliseconds game literally unplayable delete SWF". I think he overestimated the forum users though.
As a killer, I go into the match knowing i'm am not guaranteed kills. I will try to kill survivors.
When I used to play survivor, I would go into the match knowing i'm not guaranteed an escape.
It seems like some ppl feel they deserve to escape just because they loaded into a match.
The argument is that, with 1 survivor sitting on hook you simply don't have the time to do 5 gens AND 5 totems. As someone that plays mostly SWF I can say this is definitely true even if you are communicating. Of course, it depends how quickly the first person is caught. If the killer is a GF, for example, they can catch the first survivor quick because of the surprise factor. Once we know it's a GF we know what to do, but it usually means someone is getting jumped and hit for free to find out. Unless they come for me first because I always run Spine Chill, but that's a 1 in 4 chance.
A hook is 2 minutes. It takes 80 seconds base to do a gen, 14 to do a totem (for 70s total). If we assume that 1 survivor is being chased/camped/whatever and the other 3 are split up, they can do 1 gen and 1 totem in 100 seconds (94 technically but we need to be practical and say there is some travel time from one to the next). That leaves 2 gens and 2 totems with 20 seconds left on the hook. Mathematically, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do all objectives in the time it takes someone to die on a hook. Now obviously they won't start the game on a hook, so if we are generous and add 60s to survivor time for the chase, that gives 180 seconds before that survivor is dead. Now the other survivors have 80 seconds to do 2 gen and 2 totems, which can be done if 2 survivors group up on a gen and 1 does a gen solo, then the 2 survivors rush the last 2 totems after (post 3.7) 48 seconds, giving them roughly 15 seconds to spare before the last gen pops to run to the gate. In theory that would all be fine, but in practice you have to consider the time it takes to move from one objective to the next, the time it takes to search every nook and cranny for totems, and how long the actual chase lasts. 60s is a good chase. If it's any shorter, they won't get everything done even in the most theoretical optimal conditions. And since we know no survivor group can be perfectly optimal, it means absolutely NO survivor group can get all the objectives done in the time it takes to chase and camp 1 survivor out of the game. Therefore, all a killer needs to do to secure at LEAST a 2k is to use NOED, camp the first survivor to death, and profit. This is assuming survivors play the game absolutely perfectly too, which is impossible, which means any killer that does this tactic will walk out with a 3k in a vast majority of their games (which Otz seems to haven proven).
Also I've escape plenty of games that I didn't have fun. I've died plenty of games where I had fun. Escaping is not always a prerequisite of having fun. I had a game against a Myers than camp/tunneled my friend because she's a streamer, then tried to meme with the rest of us. He was a scumbag, literally messaged her to tell her he did it because she is streaming (and stream sniped BTW). I sent him an EZ after he drop reset me and let me go because he deserves it for being a prick. I did not have fun that game I will tell you that much.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic when I ask this, but where does it say that all objectives have to have a progress tracker? Wouldn't it be up for the devs to decide how they want to label objectives and if they want to add a progression tracker for said objectives? To say that it can't be an objective because a certain condition you would prefer is not met simply isn't true. Unless there is an unwritten by-law that states developers are required to provide a progression tracker in order for it to be considered an objective, then it is an objective.
You could pretend its not an objective because those conditions aren't met, but the penalty for that is NOED.
Let me see the dev comment please
I understand I wasn't as clear as I could've been, but it's a DBD problem. For each and every design choice you have to consider how it affects solo survivor and SWF differently. One of the most common complaints is that devs should bring SWF and solo survivors together then balance killers accordingly. How do you expect to do that when one side has access to the progress of an "objective" and the other doesn't?
Since SWF isn't going anywhere, there should be a totem counter as long as NOED provides as much power as it does, period. Make it work for both sides so that killers can know in advance if their NOED is going to activate or not and play accordingly. If the devs are unwilling to add a totem counter then I don't think NOED should exist in its current iteration.
It should be every persons goal to improve. They then changed infinites because they realized that winning a chase but losing a game wasnt a fair trade-off.
Yes the devs can change their mind. But until they do, do the bones is the official answer
Otz also said in multiple of his videos that DS isn't an anti-tunelling perk, but a minute invincibility perk for survivors. In one of his streams he even said that the new DS is stronger and used more often than the old DS. But of course you're only gonna share Otz's opinion on NOED, because his opinion on DS wouldn't fit at all with your extremely biased post. Because God forbid to break people's bubbles about "DS being a perfectly balanced perk, just don't tunnel noob".
It's a perk ;)
Dead Hard also rewards survivors for mistakes in every trial. ;)
You can be against perks that reward poor play instead of accepting them when it's convenient to you, but you do you I guess.
No one cares about the "official answer". We're arguing whether it's healthy design or not, regardless of what the devs have said.
I only use NOED to annoy the survivor team, I certainly don't need it to 4k. That being said, I never struggle to counter noed, ever. That perk is very easily shut down and you don't even have to cleanse all the totems on the map, just cleanse the well hidden out of the way ones and leave the few next to gets up and as soon as you finish the last gen walk 3th to the now glowing noed totem. Seriously I don't want to sound like that unproductive guy and I know it is very unoriginal but: cleanse totems, you do have more than one objective after all. Besides if noed didn't exist people would have no reason to worry about dull totems outside of "I want more BPs) which would make games even faster than they currently hard.
I have to ask, if you're not going to add anything of value to the discussion and just attack an argument that isn't even here because you have no viable answer to the matter at hand, why even comment?
Go create your own thread on Otz talking about DS then.
Now that I agree wholeheartedly with. I didn't mean to imply I was against a progression tracker for totems, and I do think it would be a nice addition to bridge the gap between SWF and solo. As a solo survivor main myself I would love to have the at least some of the same information as SWF.
Then add a totem counter. That's literally what people have been asking for for ages, and if the devs really want totems to be an instrumental part of survivor gameplay there's no reason there shouldn't be a counter.
That's not really true at all. A survivor is supposed to be caught by the killer. Just because a survivor ends up getting caught doesn't mean he made a mistake. Dead Hard is a perk to try and extend your chase. It has nothing to do with rewarding someone that made a mistake. I don't even know how you even began to get to the mentality you have on it.
I've been of the opinion that totems should be a bigger part of the game for quite some time now. Add a counter, make more killer and survivor perks that interact with dull totems, and depending on how well it works make more totems spawn per match and make them easier to cleanse. There's no need to add a brand new objective to the game when there's a feature that has potential but has been very poorly explored for years now.
The devs think noed is in a good place. They have commented time and time again.
On what planet does this happen in a random solo survivor game? Puh-lease.
Your solution is to not get caught. Oh wow, if only Survivors thought of that!
The devs think Legion is in a good place. They think current DS is in a good place. They used to think gen speeds were in a good place.Again, they used to think infinites were fine because they took skill.
Stop appealing to authority and start using your own brain to form your opinions. Don't use other peoples' words to argue for you.
No one needs you to come here and explain what the devs have said. Anyone can find their opinions if they want, but that's not what has been asked for here.