Otzdarva’s stream today
So Otz set out to prove that NOED is overpowered and more importantly - unfair. As everyone who doesn’t play one side exclusively would tell you.
He decided to play like 90%+ of the EU servers, that being proxy camp, tunnel and NOED.
He was shocked to find that he won game after game after game after game after game. No effort, no skill required, just proxy camp to bait the unhook then tunnel mercilessly with NOED as back up. The survivors all had their “broken” perks, DS, BT etc but it wasn’t enough to escape. He was using Legion too who most people try to claim isn’t a viable killer.
Now you can try to put it on the survivors saying they should “rush gens etc” but you’ve likely got people who just want to unhook their friend so they can enjoy the game, or solos who just want to pip so they NEED the unhook as the game requires you to get it.
This isn’t a shock one bit. I’ve said it many times. Killer takes no skill. Camp, tunnel, NOED and you’ll do really well in most of your games with no effort required.
Now only at the very end did one team manage to escape. He played daft on purpose I think 2/3 made it out, would have been 2 but he purposefully let one go so that would have been a tie. It took a combination of DS and luck offerings for kobes to make it happen. Know why the last team did so well? Because they were a swf, one on the hook told the rest to just rush gens. So one took the sacrifice for the team. That means the gameplay consisted one one person queuing for 7 mins in the lobby just to sit on a hook for 2 mins and be out of the game with a depip. The others just had to hold M1 and hope the gens were done before their friend died. Killer mains in their effort to try and justify winning at any cost say this is fine but we all know its just garbage. Nobody wants to play like that because it’s not fun nor exciting.
I don’t expect anyone here to agree. Forum is mostly full of the most biased killer mains who try to justify anything so long as it favours their side. Otz explains perfectly why NOED is cheap and needs a change. Anyone but the most biased players can see it.
So I guess this is for the dev team. The question is are you willing to be brave enough to shake up the game? Or will fear or change leave it in the state that its in. Killers want more time, survivors want less tunneling. The nature of the game should change based on that.
In b4 “legit strategy” “balanced perk”
Comments
If you miscalculated your distance when using a loop, you can use it to get to a pallet. That might extend the chase another minute or two or even 3. The killer can lose the entire match because a survivor actually made a mistake, pressed a button to get him to a pallet. That's a lot more game changing than NOED.
may i just quickly take the opportunity here and ask how a killer perk that is 100% survivor reliant to ever activate can be unfair towards survivors?
also the games i remember from his stream were the survivors literally throwing themselves at the hook. he didnt prove anything NOED related, all he proved was that apparently even high ranks feed campers (he even said that the experiment didnt at all turn out the way he expected, as it ended up being a camp experiment rather than a NOED experiment)
seriously, they all 4 ran at a facecamping bubba on multiple occasions. most of the time he never even made it to endgame under normal circumstances as they would just end up having 1 hooked, 1 slugged or dead and at least 1 more guy standing next to him watching the killer camping, shaking his head, pointing at him or trying to bait him away.
The result is not surprising. It's surprising that a killer of Otz's caliber didn't already know this. I said this in the other thread where @Almo purported that camping works because of survivors' fault. No, that's half the truth. Camping works because of game design. Put corrupt intervention and noed, proxy, force trades and tunnel, and a 2k is almost mathematically guaranteed even in the worst case scenario. For the remainder, the survivors will be stomped even before noed comes into play. The "just do gens and punish the gens with a 1k" is an illusion and it works only with optimal survivors who must be on comms as well. Solos get destroyed by this.
The fault here is not that the devs accept this style as legit (although I find it questionable), but that they don't do anything to empower solos against this no-brainer gameplay.
I said it many times on this board. Camping DOES work. And it works well too.
Be happy that there are killers even in the red ranks that refuse to adopt this brainless style (shameless plug) and don't be arseholes to them.
So now exhaustion perks need to be taken out of the game too? Because someone used Dead Hard... Which btw is probably the most difficult thing in the game to use. I'd never touch Dead Hard. I'm too noob. I run Lithe and jump through a window instead.
But exhaustion perks are more broken then running around at the end of the game with increased speed and just 1 shotting people? I don't know man.... Not really seeing the comparison.
Wow you actually laid out everything pretty well. Good job.
Nope, he'll be too busy camping the hook to grab the last two survivors, assuming the third doesn't lose them with their adrenaline
The devs can't and shouldn't do anything to prevent overly-altruistic survivors from being punished
And that, my friend is why campers suceed. Stop feeding the campers, killers will stop camping.
Sorry man i dont have every Dev comment on file. Hell i cant even find my own old stuff. How about this
@Peanits i remember you saying something along the lines of NOED being strong by design and thats why its tied to totems. That its counter is simply to destroy the totems. I don't want to quote you if it wasn't you that said it. Can you tell the class if this is in line with the dev teams thoughts? Please and thank you!
The devs can,and should do anything in their power to make the game better and more skill intensive, and that involves making camping as obsolete and innefective as possible.
It's only effective because the Survivors MAKE it effective. I guarantee a camping Killer will never, EVER get a 4k if the survivors use their brains and genrush the everliving hell out of the camper. Considering most Killers(myself included) consider anything under a 3k to be a tie at best, Killers will never "win". They will also never rise above brown ranks and will almost never score more than 15k BP.
Oof, lots of replies so I don't think much of what I say here will be new or of that much value, but I'll throw my hat in the ring:
Dedicated Killer main, I play Killer almost exclusively, I also think NOED is in an unhealthy state and needs changes. I think a lot of the rationalisations here for current NOED are people being willfully stupid for tribalism's sake.
My personal change to NOED would be making the Hex Totem light up at the START of a match, but "bounce" to the furthest away Dull Totem on the map when cleansed and alert all Survivors "Hex: No One Escapes Death" when that happens, being able to do this twice before Survivors can cleanse the Perk permanently.
This creates a Devour Hope-esque "win condition" perk that's more about sending Survivors into a panicked frenzy when they discover it and forcing them to go do Totems, instead of the current "If you're losing, here, have some easy kills" Perk it currently is IMO.
Above all else, I just don't like the hypocrisy. How many of the people commenting here "well NOED is fair because survivors are so powerful" have complained about Borrowed Time or Decisive Strike in the past without realizing Survivors use the exact same reasoning for using those Perks?
You don’t need to camp the hook once your NOED procs, lmao. You go to where the last survivors finished their final gen for an easy clean up. As long as you’re not blind it isn’t hard to find survivors running for the gates.
As a survivor main I really don't want a totem counter.
However it could be part of a perk, probably Small Game or something. I'd be fine with that. But at base, no.
Alternatively instead of any kind of counter add some kind of map wide sound effect for when a dull is destroyed. Then you know when a totem is done but have to keep track yourself.
It is effective because DBD is a game of information and solo survivors have considerably less information to work with than SWF. Unless every game starts being a SWF both camping and NOED are gonna keep being design problems.
I mean, that's exactly the same thing. You could remove the generator counter and everyone playing would still know how many are missing because of the notification. I see no point on this specific stance, but okay.
I have not_Queen's response on hand 😂😂😂😂
"As it was mentioned in the thread by different people, NOED isn't rewarding poor gameplay from Killers:
Killer has to play the trial with only 3 perks before the doors are activated.
The perk can be fully deactivated by survivors
If the killer has no luck in hooking many survivors before the doors are activated, then the survivors should have been able to cleanse totems without feeling pressure, thus, not giving the NOED edge to the killer. It's on them if it activates.
If survivors allow the killer to get a 4K with NOED in the end game, I would argue that survivors made mistakes during their end game plays or didn't prepare for the potential NOED activation.
Finally, if you don't want to play NOED, it's your prerogative. In my opinion, building a build that is strong in end game isn't rewarding failure, it is using perks for their intended purposes. The purpose of NOED is to give a killer a burst of strength in end game. Since it's effectively strong, survivors have the power to deactivate it, if they focus secondary objectives.
The killer players choosing to play NOED are banking on a burst of strength at the end for the downside of playing with 3 perks the rest of the game and having a chance to have their perk deactivated. It's a high risk, high reward scenario.
Do bones."
The real issue is survivors are fed up with core game mechanics. And so are killers.
"NoED is OP because we can't track/be bothered to do totems." "Camping is stupid because how dare the killer use the hooked person as bait, it's not fun for THEM"
"DS is OP because I'm too lazy to chase more" "Adrenaline is OP cuz survivor didn't earn it" "Gen rush is OP cuz the survivors should just wait for me"
I have NEVER seen any asymmetrical pvp game achieve balance, or even agreement on what balance is. Both sides will always complain about something being unfair to them. The reality is survivors and killers aren't on equal ground at all. They will NEVER be.
Killers can blame survivors for gen rushing all they want, it's their objective to get gens done. But it's an OPTIONAL objective to do totems, some do them but most don't.
Survivors can blame killers for camping/tunneling/NoED all they want, it's their objective to kill you. But it's OPTIONAL on how they want to do this, some camp/tunnel and use NoED but most don't.
I'm saying this because everyone is sooooo concerned with each other they fail to realize that this problem is bigger than these petty issues. It's a problem with the design of the game as a whole. Like I said before, asymmetrical games will NEVER achieve balance because you just can't make everyone happy with every change.
They are NOT the same thing. Not at all.
If you have to track it yourself, there is room for error. "Did we do 5 totems or only 4? I was being chased half the game and missed it." This is SUPER common with exit gates. "I was mid-chase and didn't see where the gates are, HALP".
If there is a counter it completely removes any room for error. "Did we do 5 totems or only 4? Oh wait 4 because the number on my screen tells me." Gens are different because they are the MAIN objective, it's a bit necessary there.
Asking for a totem counter is like asking for a clock on the screen so you can track the EXACT timers on every perk. Or asking for exit gates to stay permanently lit for survivors so they always know where to go.
I can kinda see your point, but I still think there should be a counter.
I don't see a reason to keep things in the game in a way that favors SWF over solo survivors this much. It makes no sense to me and goes against everything this community asks for everyday.
Besides, the difference in the value of information is very different. With exit gates, you could potentially just die if you don't know where they are. It puts pressure on people and makes for interesting gameplay. For totems though, it just feels nitpicky making people memorize something else just for the sake of it.
I mean, SWF is not infallible. They can make mistakes. My group is a bunch of really REALLY good survivors but we still ######### up from time to time. Sometimes royally.
I literally had a game where I had a map and my ONLY JOB was to cleanse all the totems (this was my job for the last like 10 games which I did no problems). Last gen about to pop my friend goes "did you get them all" I said yes. Pops it BOOM, NOED. We laughed (well I laughed, she was screaming at me, but came around and started to laugh at me for being incompetent). It was a hectic game and we had like 5 games in a row on MacMil so I just lost track (and somehow this totem didn't show up when I looked at the map the last time).
Point being, a counter removes all room for error. We don't need it. If it's tied to a perk (Small Game) or there is a map wide noise that requires you to track it yourself, then sure.
Again, I really really HATE the idea of tying something that can be achieved with communication to a perk. A good player messes up that way with comms maybe once every 50 games and that's it. But tying something SWF players have for free to a perk feels just ######### to me. I could fly with the map wide noise, even though I fundamentally disagree with it and think it's unnecessary "skill expression", but tying that to a perk is a no go to me.
It's like, oh, you're playing with friends, you get to run 4 chase perks/second chance perks. Oh, are you solo? Yeah, slap Kindred and whatever is used to track totem count in there, now you have two perks left. Don't want that? Play without information that SWF have for free. I can't agree with that and I hope the devs don't follow that direction with the game, otherwise we're gonna see the gigantic power gap between solo and SWF forever.
These are the same people who unironically said "Just pressure gens bro" when ruin was nerfed
Yeah. Offering simple "solutions" to complicated problems as if no one ever though of that is extremely annoying.
What annoys me more is people coming here with "the devs said it's fine so stop complaining" as if the devs never got anything wrong with the game. Appeal to authority is one hell of a drug when it reinforces your own narrative.
I have never seen a camper that leaves the hook, even when NOED procs
Because NOED is only run because ruin got gutted and games go too fast.
Also is the plan just to keep whining about killer perks until they all suck? What's next, BBQ or Infectious Fright?
Assuming the Killer doesn't have Insidious or is Ghostface, you should be able to tell that they're there just by their TR. If theres no TR when you go to the hook, one of the following is happening:
In the case of Wraith, just run away, he can't chase you too far or he'll risk losing his hook. If it's Ghostface or Pig, you should use your brain and look for them first. If it's Insidious Bubba(or even Bubba in general) you really shouldn't be going for the save anyway, since you KNOW he's gonna be there. You can also run Kindred, since it's been buffed to grant aura reading if somebody else gets hooked as well
You know, that "argument" holds zero merit, It's a lot easier to think the entire world is against you than to think critically about things. That's why the "Oh wow, Spirit and Nurse got nerfed because survivors complained, now they're gonna nerf EVERY SINGLE KILLER, rip Billy" came up in the first place. And that didn't happen. You know why? Because the devs aren't evil entities that hate killer players. They want their game to be good, believe it or not.
Did they nerf EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR PERK after reworking DS and nerfing MoM? No, they just nerfed the unhealthy stuff. Did they nerf every strong killer after nerfing Spirit and Nurse? No, they only touched forever Freddy, which was unhealthy.
Instaheals are gone, toolboxes got nerfed, and moris are still in the game. Does that mean the devs are killer sided?
The sooner you stop thinking everyone is out to get you and realize that other people playing the game are human too, the better.
Just run a perk for information SWF have for free 5head
Your point being? Killers need to waste a perk slot for NOED, going with 3 perks for 90% of the game.
Solo shouldn't have to give up an entire perk slot for something swf have basekit.
I thought we were talking about camping. Does every camping killer run NOED? Do you need NOED to camp?
Also yeah just walk towards the hook to check if there's a facecamping killer with no information as to where the other survivors are. It fits very well into the 'the survivors have time to do 15 gens, go to the moon and back and do the peppermint roll while the survivor dies, just get good"
Killers have a 24-32m TR, if you can't figure out that the Killer is camping by the time you're 20m away, I don't know what to say. Also, the majority of camping Killers do run NOED, generally because they're new and don't have any good perks unlocked.
So survivors have time to, while a single player is hooked, do all generators, all totems, and walk from the other side of the map until they're 20m away from the hook, come back and finish the objective and do the victory dance around shack?
Ngl you must be a REALLY good survivor player to bend spacetime like this
Better tied to a perk than to just give out the information for free to everyone. That doesn't make sense to me, to just hand out the information "because SWF gets it". SWF gets a lot of thing solos don't, that's not an excuse to make it part of the base game. Otherwise might as well delete like 75% of the survivor perks from the game and make them base kit. I'm pretty sure even you would agree that's unnecessary.
That's actually completely necessary. Killers will be impossible to balance properly until solos are brought to swf level.
Then run Kindred. I'm getting real tired of survivors bitching about Killer perks and behaviours while refusing to use the perks to counter them.
"Just run Lightborn or Franklins if you hate flashlights so much"
"I don't want to run Calm Spirit just to counter Doctor, he needs a nerf"
"NOED sucks because I can't do bones, but I don't WANT to run Small Game or Detective's Hunch, they're meme perks!"
I don't want to run Kindred to see if a Killer is camping or not, I want campers to be punished!"
Just do bones… Jesus f Christ. It was said time and time again, but people don't seem to be bothered by this. As someone said at the beginning, he really used this perk 2-3 times? NOED is punishment for your lack of care for totems' existence.
Meanwhile, I'm punished for playing good as a killer with:
-Dead Hard when I catch up to survivor, hit him, capitalize on surv's mistake just to eat dust and see pallet thrown down, or their end of back behind window. But to be fair, most survivors just use it to avoid hit, and waste it most of the time.
-DS when survivor gets down after unhook under one minute, even if I didn't tunnel. Seriously, we can't just keep up with who we hooked all the time. "Oh you are doing gen in front of my face, don't worry, I'll ignore you or I will get hit by DS"
-BT when survivor literally runs to hook in my sight and unhooks another survivor in my range of heart beat. So now, instead of capitalizing on this dumb mistake, and downing unhooked one to slug him, I have to deal with white aura of immunity and unhooker than has most likely DH and if was hooked previously and 1 min didn't pass, DS. Oh wait, he can have Unbreakable too...
-Unbreakable, when entire team gets downed, because they made ton of mistakes, but hey! With one simple button and few seconds, I can destroy entire pressure killer had! Isn't that amazing?
And to be worse, you can combine all of this perks to become unkillable one man army.
These perks were made with good intentions, don't get me wrong. BUT, survivors are simply abusing most if not all of them and killer can just negate some of their effects (there are no real counters to them other than wait it out or ignore survivor to not activate an effect). These perks just like NOED (kinda) can be abused by players and get bad reputation.
NOED is just one and only second chance perk, one that is active only during endgame. And at least for know, it's only second chance perk with true counter. All you have to do is do bones. If you don't know how many your team took down, just run around map for some time. If you had time to do gens and loop killer, you will have time to cleanse totems.
I'll agree that it's unnecessary to give away all the information perks give but quite frankly, when introducing new things to the game, I'd prefer it if the devs did stuff that brings SWF and solo closer together instead of not doing so.
Also what's wrong with giving that specific kind of information for free? A lot of games follow the trend of moving away from memorization and literal time counting in order to emphasize in strategic and mechanical aspects. I'm not saying it's always the right decision, but I don't think the game would get any less deep by introducing a totem counter in comparison to what we have now. If anything, it would make things more strategic, like choosing whether or not to deal with NOED and find the lit totem afterwards. Right now, for solos, it's just "welp I did like 3 totems let's pray the others are done too" and then bam, exposed.
You can still 4k against adrenaline and DS most games though. Most of the time one person will be killed with NOED
I swear to God, can salty people in these forums make A SINGLE POINT without resorting to "well, the other side complains about it so I can too"? Are we really trapped in a kindergarten time loop?
Thanks for being the typical biased main. "Just do bones forehead!" Just ignore the fact that it takes 70 seconds. "Survivor perks punish me for playing good!" Good players don't need to tunnel and don't care if a survivor punishes their greed with Unbreakable or Dead Hard. Please try playing survivor before you go out and preach about how survivors should strategize, it's really cringey when you don't.
How is BT overpowered AT ALL? Its literally to counter an almost uncounterable playstyle and even then...it can still be countered.
Adrenaline isnt even that bad at all though and rarely comes into any sort of clutch play soooo
No it's not necessary.
NOTHING you do will make solos and SWF even because communication will still trump any amount of information you provide. If I have a plan to do something, no matter what's going on, if I can communicate said plan to others it will be INSANELY more effective than if I just did it without telling anyone.
Honestly solo survivor is not that bad. If you play more selfishly you can escape more often than not. Giving out free information ruins the game because it removes a lot of what-ifs.
The goal should not be to bring solo up to SWF, it should be the other way around. Put limitations on SWF so they have to play more like solos. For example, if you are in an SWF then there can only be 1 instance of any given perk. This prevents SWF groups from stacking DS/BT/Adren on everyone. Things shift to team builds instead of everyone run meta. And since you have the added advantage of communication, having limits like that wouldn't hurt you so much that it'd become impossible to escape.
Like if the game is already pretty well balanced for solo, but potentially unbalanced for SWF, it makes no sense to break the working part of the game only to redo all the balanced after. It makes way more sense to fix the unbalanced part and leave what isn't broken alone.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. That's how I look at it.
"You called me out on my bullshit, what a child"
Think critically? You are advocating for nerfing a perk that is maybe active for 5% of the game, and has clear a clear counter play to it. Even if you don't cleanse all the totems finding NOED isn't that hard because the majority of totem spawns are super obvious. The whole reason NOED is being used is because without old ruin the game is still way too fast unless the survivors are legit throwing themselves at the killer.
Do you have a suggestion to make other options more attractive for killer? No, you just want NOED nerfed because you don't like it and refuse to do its counter play and then say everyone who disagrees with you is salty, not thinking critically and their argument has no merit. Pathetic
What bullshit? Please elaborate.
Please show me where specifically I advocated for a NOED nerf. I'd love to see that, because all I've been saying in here is that I think the game should have a totem counter so that solo survivors have the same information to work with that SWF have.
If killers truly are running NOED because games go by too fast, then they should be DELIGHTED that survivors are spending time looking for and cleansing all the totems. I wouldn't call that an effective nerf.
So unless you're running NOED for entirely different reasons, like, say, getting free kills when you fail to prevent survivors from doing all gens, then I'm not advocating for nerfing everything. Stop putting words in my mouth when you can't reply to what I actually said.
It's a complicated discussion. I personally never run NOED, because I think it's most of the time not that strong, when survivor know how to deal with it during the Endgame properly. But that's mostly my personal experience.
But I have to disagree with the "Just do Bones"-mentality. Yeah, it's a way to eliminate it. But a quite unreliable one. In worst case scenario you are just make it sure that the NOED totem will end up be at the most hidden spot on the map. Especially on newer maps. And tbh. the thing with NOED and it's "Do Bones" condition is also kinda in a conflict with the general credo that Hexes should be better hidden on maps. Yeah, you can track them with perks and items. And you can try to memorize totem spots on all maps on the game. But it's not really beginner friendly and becomes quite bloated with the addition of new maps.
To be fair, I didn't watch Otz stream. So I can't judge how strong NOED was or how he even played. But I'm sure that as a killer you can "win" with a cheap playstyle with it. Still I'm personally uncertain, because I think that survivors can actually deal with it during the endgame. Don't know....