Otzdarva’s stream today
So Otz set out to prove that NOED is overpowered and more importantly - unfair. As everyone who doesn’t play one side exclusively would tell you.
He decided to play like 90%+ of the EU servers, that being proxy camp, tunnel and NOED.
He was shocked to find that he won game after game after game after game after game. No effort, no skill required, just proxy camp to bait the unhook then tunnel mercilessly with NOED as back up. The survivors all had their “broken” perks, DS, BT etc but it wasn’t enough to escape. He was using Legion too who most people try to claim isn’t a viable killer.
Now you can try to put it on the survivors saying they should “rush gens etc” but you’ve likely got people who just want to unhook their friend so they can enjoy the game, or solos who just want to pip so they NEED the unhook as the game requires you to get it.
This isn’t a shock one bit. I’ve said it many times. Killer takes no skill. Camp, tunnel, NOED and you’ll do really well in most of your games with no effort required.
Now only at the very end did one team manage to escape. He played daft on purpose I think 2/3 made it out, would have been 2 but he purposefully let one go so that would have been a tie. It took a combination of DS and luck offerings for kobes to make it happen. Know why the last team did so well? Because they were a swf, one on the hook told the rest to just rush gens. So one took the sacrifice for the team. That means the gameplay consisted one one person queuing for 7 mins in the lobby just to sit on a hook for 2 mins and be out of the game with a depip. The others just had to hold M1 and hope the gens were done before their friend died. Killer mains in their effort to try and justify winning at any cost say this is fine but we all know its just garbage. Nobody wants to play like that because it’s not fun nor exciting.
I don’t expect anyone here to agree. Forum is mostly full of the most biased killer mains who try to justify anything so long as it favours their side. Otz explains perfectly why NOED is cheap and needs a change. Anyone but the most biased players can see it.
So I guess this is for the dev team. The question is are you willing to be brave enough to shake up the game? Or will fear or change leave it in the state that its in. Killers want more time, survivors want less tunneling. The nature of the game should change based on that.
In b4 “legit strategy” “balanced perk”
Comments
Please explain how noed isnt a second chance perk? noed removes 1 health state from every survivor and rewards the killer for being bad at the game.
You said that unless a totem counter is implimented then it shouldn't exist in it's current interaction.
If there is no totem counter, please tell me how you would change NOED
it's the killer equivalent of sitting on a gen holding M1 the whole game.. neither is fun.
I'd say alot that noed camp probably either feel like they have no other choice because gen speeds and they want to secure a kill, are sick of survivor behavior, or they hate the game and have nothing else to play currently.
I really doubt many killers beyond rank 10 go into a match w/NOED thinking of it as a "strategy", more of a "f*** it"
I honestly don't know. I didn't suggest any nerfs because I don't think it needs to be nerfed. I think a totem counter or like someone else suggested a notification when a dull totem gets cleansed is necessary. I do think the perk is unhealthy in its current iteration but that's because solo survivors don't get a clear counterplay to it, unlike what people seem to suggest. I also don't think there's a way you change the perk without making it too weak, to the point where survivors would just ignore it.
The problem with NOED is the counterplay for solos, not the effect.
Since I particularly dislike endgame builds I'd rather have gens take significantly longer but perks that rely on the endgame be made significantly weaker, but I know that's not gonna happen so I don't ask for it here.
I also thought Ruin was unhealthy because it affected bad survivors more than good survivors, but I was still against reworking it when they did because I preferred them to rework maps first. You can acknowledge something isn't good for the game without wanting it to be completely removed right away.
So basically I'd be kinda disappointed if they just nuked the perk instead of implementing a totem counter, just like I was disappointed when they dropped the ruin rework before reworking maps. They got to maps now, but I think they could have done both at the same time and it was a mistake by them.
I was just pointing out OP's extremely biased opinion, nothing more.
I already said in other NOED related threads that a totem counter would make NOED more fair against solo survivors. From what I have seen, you seem to share the same opinion.
Would everyone be okay with the totem counter being a thing? I mean that's really the only thing in this thread that ended up being a suggestion to how to fix this. I don't think it would fix everything. But as a solo player I think I'd really enjoy having a totem counter.
I still wonder why there's never any good arguments why NOED should be in the game. It's just always, 'CLEANSE BONES!' and all survivors want to do is win every game! Is there any killers on here that like running NOED that want to try and argue that NOED is good for the game?
Sorry, but I still think your comment was unnecessary. That doesn't prove that OP is biased at all. He saw footage of Otz playing in a certain way and wants to discuss it here. The fact that Otz complained about DS in a separate ocasion is completely irrelevant to this specific discussion, and chances are OP wasn't even aware of it. Hell, I didn't even know Otz said anything like that, even though I share some of the same opinions on DS.
This is just not the way to foster a healthy discussion. Fostering the "us vs them" mentality here does nothing but harm to the community.
I think there's already too much information given.
Well the OP just said it as a blanket statement of "fact" rather than wanting an open discussion. I agree with you though, the "us vs them" attitude is going to send this game to hell before the devs do. But the OP doesn't want a discussion, while some others do. It's really just tiresome to see the forums lately.
You also were the one that said that Dead Hard is a second chance perk. And said that it leads to a killers losing games and compared it to NOED in some weird twisted way. You were actually the first post I've ever noticed on the forums that pretty much said, "EXHAUSTION PERKS TOO OP!"
Pretty sure if you had input on balancing this game would be as dead as Evolve.
They did the respawn mechanic with Deathgarden and look how that game turned out.
Wait, a Nurse main? You guys still exist?
Those survivors were dumb for not breaking totems. They got what they deserve.
I love how people just dismiss the idea of cleansing totems, as if it is just a ridiculous idea. Gens are already done faster since the Ruin nerf, so you have the extra time. The real problem is that they don't want to give up their clutch perks for one that would help them find and cleanse totems. It takes like 15 seconds to cleanse a totem. With 4 players it doesn't take that long. And it's not like you have to do a crazy amount of searching, just move toward your next objective, see the warning go off, stop, cleanse, then move on. But then, you would have to give up all the perks that can be used to irritate killers.
Heck, people don't even run kindred anymore. If i don't run it, we don't have it. That didn't used to be the case. I stop and cleanse totems as I come across them. I figure that if i do my part, and others do theirs, it might pay off. But that's not going to happen, because certain players don't want to be bothered to do it. Heaven forbid there is some challenge or work to survive the game.
If the devs nerf NOED because survivors can't be bothered using the tools built into the game to counter it, then they need to just scrap the whole hex system as a loss, and remove it from the game.
But as I explained, solo players want the pip so they’re forced to unhook, swf just want to help their friend.
Killer mains saying “just do gens” that results in the person on the hook having a ######### game, queuing for longer than they actually get to play and the rest just hold m1 on gens with no input from the killer.
Acting like that makes it ok and legit is dumb as hell. Its dull and not how the game is meant to be played. Imagine if that was every game, just holding M1 unopposed, and 1 survivor picked at random is going to have their entire game consist of sitting on a hook. Sure you’d beat campers but who would want to play that?
It needs to change. If survivors are going to lose points for not unhooking and be forced to get altruism to pip at red ranks then it needs to change. Proxy camp, tunnel and NOED requires no effort and is too successful. Most games tend to adjust things like this but then this is Dead by Daylight so anything goes I guess
Yeah all his posts involve complaining about survivors and acting like everything killer wise in this game is healthy. Not worth anyone's time tbh
The counter to noed isn't any of meta perks. DS,BT,Exhuastion perks do not help you against NOED. There is only one perk that counters NOED and that perk is Detective Hutch. You need to cleanse all or as many totems as possible before it activates and If you want to do it in a timely matter, than your going to need aura reading on totem locations. The problem with NOED is that perk functions like quest mechanic for survivor without telling the survivor that the quest is active. It is like playing a FPS shooter but when you win, you suddenly need to complete a puzzle game within shooter to win.
Just to go a bit off-topic, Decisive strike is a quest mechanic perk for killer. It essentially ban the killer from picking up a survivor within 60 seconds without notifying the killer whether the survivor has the perk. If survivors choose to always assume that the killer has NOED, then the survivor team has to play inefficiently at the objective and therefore can risk losing on primary objective as NOED consumes your teammates time for cleansing dull totems. If you never cleanse dull totems, than the perk always activates an powerful reward. The same truth applies to Decisive strike, If you obey the rule, than you delay the survivor's death in which they could potentially hurt you and disregarding the existence of the perk awards the survivor free instant heals.
This is the reason in a nutshell why survivors and killers both hate NOED and DS. They are perks that grant powerful rewards while always granting psychological reward that indirectly impedes each other's objective. They have counter play but their counter play ultimately hurts you in the long run. Otz does not need to prove whether DS or NOED are overpowered. Everyone knows they are strongest perks in the game.
ONLY because it is always said "NOED rewards failure". Dead hard rewards failure several times with no way to turn it off.
I didn't watch Otz's stream, but I saw comments on this thread saying that at the end of it, Otz said that all the second chances, including survivors ones, should be removed. Of course, the OP completely ignored this and started to talk only about things who are unfun for the survivors, but not for the killer.
Last but not least, I know very well this user to know how biased (s)he is. In other threads, (s)he literally said things like "I hope devs nerf Billy into the ground, pls devs do it" and "DS isn't a good anti-tunnel perk because it's a skill check which survivors can miss".
So I think I rest my case.
I hadn't thought of it this way but it makes quite a bit of sense. Perks that force the player to play in a drastically different way than they normally would are generally disliked, especially the ones whose mere threat do that (the safe play would be to always play around both). I think they would be less hated if killers got actually rewarded for going for different survivors and survivors had more reasons to cleanse totems other than just NOED. That's particularly why besides just adding a totem counter I'd love more killer and survivor perks that interacted with dull totems.
I mean, yeah, I get being especially suspicious of someone based on their other posts. I know very well how that is, even concerning some people who replied in this thread. I get what you're saying.
I always say cleanse bones too, especially when I'm playing SWF with others. But that is mainly because if I am cleansing bones myself or with others, we have an idea of how many totems are left.
I don't think NOED is overpowered or broken because of that. Yes it gives the killer an unfair advantage at the end of the game, but isn't that the point? Risking it all for the very end knowing full well the other side might counter that with destroying your totems. You're already stuck to 75% of your perk arsenal for the time being, and you could still technically win without NOED ever coming into play as the Killer.
Maybe my opinion is an unpopular one, but I feel like if NOED is active, it's my fault as the Survivor for not doing totems, not the killer's fault for bringing it into the game. Theoretically you could be effective and save the obvious totems in their obvious locations and look for totems in more obscure areas, so if NOED pops up it'll most likely be in an obvious spot.
Guess what? If that's how the games go, people will stop camping. Quit giving campers the 3-4k, and you'll find that camping will magically go away outside of brown ranks
Ugh so over hearing of NOED and the complaints.
Survivors have no issue finding TOTH, Ruin, Devour Hope, Haunted Grounds etc.... Provided the thing lights up it’s like moths to a flame....
However the same mentality doesn’t apply to dull totems it’s easier to whine about it, opposed to cleansing that dull you just past.
Hypothetically say no survivor stumbled upon a lit DH, and the killer tunnels or camps or whatever blah de blah. Do survivors blame the totem? Nope.
They’ll happily blame NOED though.....
See the thing about Noed is that it is currently serving as a giant band aid for those of us who are (or recently were) brand new killers.
Seriously... have you looked at the Killer Perks that are available to all killers recently? There's basically Noed, Sloppy Butcher, 3 tracking perks that are somewhere between good and ok... and then a whole lot of crap that is ridiculously situational. Then if you happen to be starting off playing as a Killer with terrible teachable perks (Wraith anyone?) then you practically have to run Noed to have a semblance of a decent set of perks. Noed should not be nerfed until Behavior gets around to making a lot more of the General Killer perks decent.
DS isn't even a 2nd chance perk, Being tunneled means you had ZERO chance in the first place, and this is what DS is for, to help you and to give you 5 sec chance to escape killer.
By this logic ds is overpowered and needs to be changed. With noed survivors have a choice. Instead of trying to save, survivors can do totems, do gens, and try to figure out what the killer is doing. There are only 5 totems. It's not hard to do bones for crying out loud! Lmao!
3 minute games gets countered by perks and actually having some brain. Imagine the game right now with secondary objective. I mean its already easy to win 99% of games as a killer on rank 1 for someone with experience.
Stop playing solo then! How bout you be the one to do totems if you feel like your team isnt doing them
Noed is not strong for most killers. Its the camping that is strong and how easy current rank 1 players are as of now.
Otz's "experiment" has all the wrong variables and during the stream he wasnt pushing the idea that noed was overpowered he was pushing the idea that face camping was overpowered. He played around 4 games with the strongest face camper in the game (Bubba) and tried to use that as evidence that NOED is "OP" even the chat called him out on it and forced him to play someone who didn't have a strong camping game. Also during the stream he had a build tailored to what he wanted to accomplish which just screws with the results of the experiment. NOED is a uncontrolled Variable since you as the killer really have no outcome on whether it procs or not that variable is up to the survivors to control by doing bones.
Ok 3 things..
1) I stopped watching when Otz ended his experiment so I didn’t see the rest of his stream where he stoped playing in his words “in a scummy way”
2) Yeah I think Billy needs a nerf. So what? A lot of players do. I said Spirit doesn’t though but somehow that doesn’t get brought up
3) Otz stream proves that DS is not enough. He ate so many d-strikes but a 5 second stun was not enough. Not even if he took more than 1 in a game. About the skillchecks? Yeah nice taking that out of context. I was likely making a point regarding something stupid one of the many biased killer mains said.
I just want the game to be more fun for both sides, and for higher effort plays to be more rewarding than low effort plays. What’s so biased about that?
Glad to see someone else gets it.
This thread isn’t just about NOED, it’s the “proxy camp, tunnel and NOED” playstyle that I would genuinely say 90%+ of killers use. At least on EU servers.
It’s low effort, really not fun for survivors and works against all but the optimal swf teams.
Its bad game design to have a low effort play style be more successful than a high effort playstyle.
Also people need to realise that a lot of the time with this development team “its in a good place” or “its a legit strategy” usually means “yeah we cba changing that”.
As another user here said (sorry cant remember the name as I skimmed through) the devs consider Legion to be just fine. That really sums it all up.
You seem to forgot I have no control whether the killer finds or chases me first and I shouldn't have to play in a SWF just to counter a perk.
Yes NOED can be a cheap and easy kill for the bag but you can't just say that killer takes no skill and expect anyone to agree with you. Plus, the people who hard camp and tunnel all game are around just as much as actually toxic survivors (no, looping is not toxic) and that is like 20% of games. Those games suck but it is best to move on to the next one (yesterday I got a cheap huntress with ebony, noed and bitter murmur (surprised she didnt use iridescent head probably ran out) it sucked ass for my team to get moried on thier second down but sometimes you just have to take it and move on
If survivors are supposed to do gens AND totems every match then why is there still no totem counter in the HUD for solos?
Your OP states Otz set out to prove NoED was overpowered, and he then proceeds to barely use it. I can't say much for the EU servers but the only place I see NoED on any killer is low rank or it actually helps the perk build. I'm not saying you're wrong, but unless we have the overall stats of the game on something like this, we can't say with 100% certainty that it's true.
Isolated uncontrolled tests have too many variables to consider, so these "100 Game stats" are really irrelevant. We need to take a look at the game as a whole. Then we might be able to know for sure. And BHVR likely uses this information to say things are "legit" "fine where they're at" etc.
Because the answer is just so incredibly easy to understand. What more than 'cleanse totems' is there to be said? That's all that needs to be done. No complicated bits or bobs about it. Stop making mountains out of mole hills, here.
Otz video doesnt prove anything about no ed being op. Otz claimed victory over games where he doesnt show if he pipped or depipped. Just merely going based off of kills. Otz even states in his video that 3-4k does not matter.
In the first 2 matches otz face camps with bubba with chainsaw revved. survivors stupidly try to unhook in front of him resulting in 4ks.
In the third game 2 kills are from camping 2 kills are from noed.
in the fourth game survivors where too busy trying to meme than do objectives which resulted in a 4k. One survivors got unhooked while and right in front of her a team mate was hit with noed and she loops otz then tries to pick up the downed survivor
fifth game 1 escape 3k no noed activation
sixth game 4k no noed activation
seventh game 3 escape 1 dead no ed activate then broken after 2 downs no kills from noed. otz hooks a meg who then gets unhooked by nancy downs nancy in the exit along with meg gets hit with ds by meg. So this one could of been a 2k and 2 escape game He didnt play daft in this one survivors out played the noed.
The video doesnt prove noed is op it shows what happens when you dont play smart and make bad decisions in the game. otz doesnt talk about the bad decisions survivors make. like double jumping a window not knowing where the killer is, unhooking in front of a bubba that has his chain saw revved, or how a someone unhooks another survivors and then gets hit with noed and the rescued survivor tries to pick her up.
Yeah he started out testing to see if it was OP, listed all the problems with it which we’ve been over a thousand times, and then he discovered for himself that proxy camp and tunnel is even more powerful. He admitted in a lot of situations survivors had no chance.
Proxy camp and tunnel, so lazy, not fun, works well. Only counter is to rush gens which is where NOED comes in.
Its a shambles. The fact people are trying to defend this playstyle as legit just goes to show that for some players ez wins with no effort -> making the game more enjoyable and balanced
Its not " low effort play style". Its just playing smart. The same with gen rush.
Did he play nurse , spirit or hag with noed? Not healing will change the outcome against those killers and those killers can make noed really strong.
No just bubba clown and legion
I know it will be talking to the void since there's so many replies, but I don't have problem with NoED, I only play solo, I love it when someone brings kindred and I like breaking these little piles of bone for that sweet sweet BP.
But I'm only rank, 6? I also thinks that people are treating this game like it LoL, I can't be it's not 4v4 and won't ever be fully balanced especially with SWF.
Camping seems to be the problem but like so many said, it usually gets rewarded in Solo games but i've played what 100 hours in two weeks because I don't have a job right now and I would say it happened in like 5-6 games.
Also you guys can also play non meta perks, i love pebble when it works
Well thats what you needed to know. If one perk doesnt work good for one killer it will work good for other.
I'm glad to see someone I completely agree with in this sea of replies.
Ffs this is like tofu sitting there saying I’m not doing dull totems oh and btw nerf noed... do the ######### dull totems they give you enough fricking perks to give you the hint that you need to do totems, if you don’t do the dull you ran by And there happens to be noed blame yourself for not cleansing that dull. Stop whining and do the thing that counters it...
Thats not what was trying to be proved. He was trying to prove that noed is op. Not that it was op on certain killers.
Honestly, that's not a bad idea. I think most don't bother with totems because they think no one else is.
Nancy even needs to cleanse totems for her Inner Strength to work.
Gen rush is also something that takes no effort so why would you even complain about low effort playstyle? Its a game . Both sides are balanced fine. Noed doesnt mean that the game is over.
You say we can gen rush but thats where noed comes in. Are you all magically going to get stomped because of noed or what?