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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Generaly speaking, fun Killers are these who have strong power, yet provide good opportunity to counterplay and skill metters on both sides.
It is true what you say, so there can be an agument made for a killer like Huntress. Still, the formular which defines a fun killer is only fulfilled by so few killers, which is a shame.
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@Nazzzak said:
If it stresses you out, then don't play it. It's not worth it. I play mostly survivor and will only play killer when I'm in the mood. It doesn't stress me out at all - I actually find DBD very relaxing (I have anxiety) - but I play whatever role I feel like and it's usually survivor. I think because survivor you have the opportunity to switch off every now and then. With killer your mind is active frequently.
Most of the time, the game wont stress me out. I might have used a to hard word with "terrifying", pardon my english. I think the better word is "unpleasent". When i feel this way, i wont play killer, i either do something else or i play survivor.
Thats the thing, survivor never stresses me out in the first place or makes me not want to play.
I used true not because i think he is a role model for the community or i like him that much. I rather used him for pinpointing how i sometimes feel. He always seems so stressed out. I am talking about this kind of stress he is apparently feeling during his games.
@zarr said:
Use the anonymous mode and perhaps have the chat closed. Nobody will ever know it's "you", so you can forgive and forget your own misplays or misdeeds, too! It's a pretty liberating feeling. Even though I'm a "veteran" of the game, I still sometimes do this, mostly when learning and practicing new killers. Psychology is a thing and it affects our behaviour, and I have an easier time concentrating on really just improving if I don't even think about having to think about what people may make of me playing in this or that way. "Me" being my gaming persona that they may see in and around the fog.
That is a great advise, but i dont think it is solving the issue overall. It has nothing to do with peer pressure, rather a sometimes unenjoyable overall experience in some games as a killer - no matter the win or loose. If this is really a me thing, then we dont have a problem here, but i doubt it.
@crogers271 said:
Have you ever loged in DBD, intending to play killer, sitting there and thinking through witch killer to play and eventually switching to survivor (or closing the game) because you cant decide with what killer you want yourself stress out the next 5-10 minutes? This happens to me from time to time.The age old DbD question: which role is more stressful.
I find survivor more stressful, a few reason why I think that is true.
1: Some people have said you can blame the other survivors, while you can only blame yourself as killer. I feel the opposite. If I let down myself, no big deal, if I let down my team that's a huge problem.
2: I find lots of partial victories in playing killer. A single kill, 8 hooks, all feel like good games even if I didn't 'win'. It doesn't feel the same as a survivor, there's no accomplishment in almost getting the gens done or moral victory because we did pretty good against a cracked nurse. Anything short of an escape feels like a defeat.
3: As killer I play under various nice guy rules. I try not to eliminate anyone before 3 gens have popped, if I'm chasing two survivors I go after the one who has been hooked less, I refuse to bring what I consider overpowered addons and limit my perk selection. I go into the game with the mindset to be chill, if I lose, so be it.
4: Loss streaks. I've had times as survivors were I've lost upwards of 15 games in a row. The most I've ever lost as killer in a row I think is 3. If I get trounced as a killer I can always go next for a different experience, as survivor its easy to just get into a rut of loss after loss.
What makes playing killer so unpleasent? Or even the thought about a certain match?And what is the solution to that problem?Some people are looking for the stress, its part of the game's appeal, so not sure it is even something that should be fixed.
I'd say change your expectations, but that's very close to impossible. Once you have a mindset that's likely what you are going to keep.
I guess people are very different in that regard. As survivor i always feel much more chill. It might be true that some people like to have that stress level, which would then be fine for the game i guess. I cant tell for sure. Thanks.
@Akumakaji said:
A lot of good advise here. Not always running the strongest stuff and getting carried by crutch perks is the key to develop your skills as the killer.
I have two builds that helped me a lot in getting better, which eventually lead to me not stressing out as easily.
1) Basic M1 build
STBFL/Endurance/Brutal Strength
This build has no tricks up its sleeve, but makes playing pure M1 a bit less brutal by taking the sting out of your biggest weaknesses. The last perk slot can be used for something flexible, but some info perk usually fits the bill and theme best. Play an evening with this build and you should hone your basic killer skills.
2) Perkless Endgame Surprise
Remember Me/No Way Out/Bloodwarden/NOED
This is a fun build that forces you to play perkless all trial, but then power up and get the upper hand in the endgame. The main objective is to collect your stacks, ie hitting the obsession a couple of times and hooking everyone at least once. If you got your basics down with the first build, this one here let's you employ those skills, as you have to rely entirely on your own skills and powers. Often you will fall a bit behind and survivors get cocky...until NOED comes along and they are trapped for ages inside the playing area..and when they finally get the gates open you might trap them again. It doesn't work every time, but when it works it's extra satisfying.
I think both builds are great, especially the first one. Helps you out in chase a lot and wont make you so "helpless" when you get stunned by a palet. I often also play like this, STBFL is arguable my favourite killer perk - most time i run it on M1s. I might play a little bit around with your second build.
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@Grigerbest said:
I see people saying "Matchmaking in public", like in DBD we have a "Ranked matchmaking"... You don't need to say "In public" tbh.=)
To answer your question, I need to ask a few things:
- Are you afraid to be embarrassed in front of a 4 randoms?
- You think your favorite killers are "unplayable" in the current meta?
- You stressing out because... You want to win?
I remember I got this feeling when I was playing singularity, literally after 2 matches I told myself - "I don't really want to play again..."
The matches were really stressful, after each match I was smoking 1 sigarette.
Also - any player who have 1k+ hours in the game playing both roles, the game should stop being stressful.
Unless the player's personality is highly competitive.
So my advice: Stop being serious and play for fun, funny moments, fun chases, goof around with survivors from time to time. It will help.
First of all, I like all your advises and they are all logical to me.
While i was always a competetive player and i take the role of survivor more "serious" something bothers me from time to time playing killer - as you mentioned with your singularity experience.
To answer your question:
- No, i could not care less.
- Absolutly not, most killer are in my opinion either overpowered or ballanced.
- Not really win, but i hate those specific moments - for example you get stunned at a pallet the very lust millisecond. I am one of those guys (even after thousends of hours and 30 years of gaming :D) that i still move with my head when i try to hit and it is really close :D That sounds silly but it is what it is.
@SirCracken said:
I remember having this feeling years ago back when I was learning the game when it was still ludicrously broken. The most important thing that changed for me as I continued to play was my mindset and expectations when going into a match.
I used the most powerful perks and add-ons as running into a bully squad unprepared was a miserable experience. However, I ultimately got bored of running the strongest stuff every single match. And didn't have much fun during games despite winning often. I decided that I would rather lose using an interesting build that win using a boring one.
This lead to me going on a spree of using different gimmick builds for each killer that significantly improved my understanding of the game since I no longer had a reliable build to fall back on if I started to lose. And understanding that I was likely to lose a match not only made losing significantly less stressful, but it also made winning that much more satisfying.
Think of the dumbest build you can that focuses on a mechanic you normally wouldn't consider and see how it goes!
@Xernoton said:
I used to have a similar issue. For me it helped quite a bit to change my approach to the game and find a killer, that I really want to dedicate myself to. I no longer care too much about winning or losing. For me it's more important to have fun and improve at the game.
You can always learn something. Even when the game doesn't go your way. And when you have one killer that you invest your time in, then you start to improve and see progress. Ask yourself the question: "What is one killer, that I'd really like to master?" Then play this killer. It doesn't matter, if you lose a couple games in row as you are only starting out. When I first started learning Hillbilly I lost about a douzen games in a row.
Something else that can help is to play at a handicap. Using the strongest possible perks will carry you quite far. However, it will also lead you to win some games, that you should lose because you aren't yet good enough to beat your opponents with your skill rather than your perks. Use some more gimmicky builds. Yes, you are likely going to lose quite a few matches until eventually your MMR adjusts and puts you against players, that you can beat with only your skill but it also cushions the blow on many of your losses. You played at a disadvantage, so in order to win you would need to play a lot better than the survivors.
All good advises i must say. Thanks for that and your shared experience! I dont think it is a skill or experience issue anymore at this point, i mean i played every killer besides a handfull a lot. I had big winstreaks with many of them, not on the level of Otz but close. Dont get me wrong, most of the time, it wont bother me.
Its just super strange to me that i never had any simular feelings when i play survivor. Maybe its the way some survivors behave? I am really not so sure.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557528#Comment_3557528
it is normal that number are different because nightlight in statistical analysis is called sample. BVHR statistic in statistical analysis is called a census. census is true result. samples are not correct because there is not enough information. for the most part, nightlight will provide correct information but it may not be exact numbers.
Sure, it is a sample, thats why i think it is only a good indicator, and not the reality.
@KaTo1337 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557528#Comment_3557528
Thats because BHVR uses the worldwide data, which includes asian region. This is where Self Care is meta.
We can only assume that it has something to do with that. Or do we know the european/american data aswell?
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@Marc_go_solo said:
Although I've not had that level of fear regarding a role before, it's understandable why some feel this way. It stems from the basic fear of the unknown, mixed with some historical or rumoured fears of experience or hearsay.
It may not be of the actual trial itself, but a fear of what might happen, whether it's being bullied or endgame salt. This is common with many other situations: that is to say the fear of what may is rarely smaller than fear within. It's like a bungie jump for me: the idea is terrifying with all the what-ifs, but when actually doing it then it feels great!
It often comes down to what you unconsciously are telling yourself beforehand, as the mind likes to avoid any pain or stress where possible to keep you safe so the fear works as a shield.
It depends on the situation but, in a game such as this where you have an interest in the killer role, the best thing is to push through the waiting part at the beginning. Distract yourself with your phone or chatting with someone whilst waiting. Get that pre-game nerves out of the way and dive straight in. When it becomes clearer that the bad aspects aren't as common as you feel, it gets easier.
It's down to you at the end of the day though. There's no shame in it. It's a case of creating a new viewpoint of the game, away from the fear of the unknown. I wish you well.
Truth been said.
The thing is, survivor feel much less stressful and chill the killer, no matter the outcome. I wonder why that is and how to change that factor. I can sympatice with killer mains tbh even i often sound like a complete survivor player, because those games can feel very unpleasent.
The problem is, that i dont think it has anything to do with balance. It might be the overall nature of the game. But the big question still stands: What can the devs do, to change stressful killer games , or is it just ment to be that way?
For example, when i watch the Streamer TrueTalent, he always seems to be in this situation i have discribed, at least when he plays killer. Eventually he will (or already has) burned out on DbD because of that. I am not a Truetalent fan , but i know what he actually means when he complains about killer experience. His problem is that he can not sort his feelings correctly. In his mind the game is unballanced, and thats why he has this bad killer experience.
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Nightlight is a good indicator, but in terms of numbers still way off as we can see:
For example:
WoO: 28% vs 33%
Mft: 21% vs 25%
Adre: 25,5% vs 20%
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In the past there was no counter but Spine Chill. Now you can hear the direction she is.
So the optimal counter: Get a really good headset :)
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Safe the best for last
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555376#Comment_3555376
First, it's 40%, not 50%, and as I has already explained in other post, a win for a killer is a 3K according to MMR. So, 60 kill rate = 40% win rate for survivors and for killers (even if for this to be true, every single killer need to be as close as that 60% kill rate as possible).
That's why BHVR wants the kill rate around 60%, as that is half the job to balance the game done. Maintaining that 60% they only need to balance each killer so his individual killrate is around the 60% and then every single one of them and the survivors would have a 40% win rate ON AVERAGE. Meaning, no every single survivor would just win 40% or every single killer kill 60% in reality, there would be people that do more or less than that, but ON AVERAGE there would be 2.4 survivors killed per match.
And last time I explain it.
Let me try it for the final last time in very short. I need you to read first, then post, since you completly ignored what i even said and you just repeated yourself. What you are saying is not crazy complicated science.
Your explanation on wins might be true, i am not denying that at all! The math might not be 100% correct, but the overall concept is for me very sound.
But. it. does. not. matter.
An imaginary "win" is completly irrelevant for the game and it is a tremendous mistake if the developers want to aim for that nonsense. Because in the end of the day, this game can only be balanced around 3 things:
- Hook count
- Killrate
- A mix between both of those
Your examples actually even prove my point. If 60% killrate is fine, it is only fine for the imaginary "winrate" on killer. What does a "win" in terms of ballancing even mean? Why should anybody care for winning 40%, drawing 20% and loosing 40% on average?
If killer perform with a 60% killrate (no matter how that resulted!!) they perform above average. If individual survivors escape 40% they escape below average. Thats it. No more, no less.
Kind regards
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554803#Comment_3554803
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554807#Comment_3554807
And the short explanation is it is the only way to get an equal 40% win rate on average for survivors and every single killer. If you want the math, why and how, again, they are in this thread.
Again, i know what you are saying, but it makes no sense to me. Maybe you want to explain it futher then you and others have?
The reason why i dont understand your points is that i find You examples all irrelevant. Why?
Because if the math is (or would be, we dont know) correct and killer really need 60% killrate to reach a 50% winrate, it will automatically drop the winrate on every survivor to 40%. Which then drops the winrate for 4 individual players to 40% and for 1 single player to 50%. That is not the right approach for any kind of game.
Dead by Daylight is not a competetive 4v1 challange. Every person feels his own win or loose. This is not CS GO. Almost no survivors sits down after the game and thought about the game "well, only 1 got it, so we lost the game" if he is the one. He won. If you get out, you win, if you dont, you loose.
Sure, some see it different, but that is then just a subjective feeling about the game in general. If you dont care to get killed, then this would not bother you to much.
So in short. From your example, 1 player (the killer) benefits because he wins half of his matches on the cost of 4 other players who loose 60% of their matches individually.
Feel free to correct me.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554792#Comment_3554792
So, instead of reading to the pointed explanations you are going to simply ignore them and keep saying whatever you feel like. Ok.
I am sorry, i have not found any of those so called explanations, besides the killrate is fair because survivor DC more often then killer. If you got somethign better then that, i am willing to read it of course.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554779#Comment_3554779
Multiple post explaining why 60% kill rate is balanced in this thread, go read them.
Because of what? Survivor DC? Multible posts explained how this is bs and the real kill rate is actually even higher then that. Go read them.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552202#Comment_3552202
60% is balanced. Just need to balance swf and soloQ closer. Killer is all alone so he deserves to win more when playing well. Survivors give up all the time so real kill rate would be maybe even below 50% still.
60% is ballanced?
Adam Ries is turning upside down in his grave :(
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@ratcoffee said:
When I say the game is killer sided, I mean specifically at average levels of play. Average kill rates are 53% according to nightlight, meaning killers have a 6 percentage point advantage over survivors on average.
That's great, IMO. As a survivor player I'd even prefer slightly more killer buffs to make escapes slightly more difficult - I like playing the underdog role, which solo queue survivor certainly is, and if the devs want to get back to the ~60% kill rate they've previously stated as their ideal, I have no objections. IMO the ideal DBD is one that is slightly-to-moderately killer sided.
I'll admit, at the absolute top level, with players making the fewest mistakes a player can reasonably be expected to make, the game is survivor sided, where most matches where the survivors are truly sweating they'll win, barring some very specific killer- and map-specific circumstances. Unfortunately it'd be impossible to balance the game for that without making the game unacceptably killer-sided in the average (think 90% kill rates or higher), but there's only a couple dozen survivor players capable of that level of play, so in a game with something like 100k daily players it's acceptable to balance primarily for everyone else.
Those stats are not correct. Devs released their data. Killrate is close to 60% and at the top 5% its above 60%.
Said that, i am all for ballance. So 50% it is for me. I know this will be extremly hard tho.
You argument might make sense for you, since you like to be the underdog. I like to be in an equal match.
Last but not least, the game is on no level survivor sided, not in comp, not in top 5% acording to stats
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/392922/everyone-leaving-dbd
You play Killer without perks regularly and win almost all your matches? I have significant doubts about this. Probably one the few who do since this forum is mostly a pro-Survivor echo chamber with plenty of cognitive dissonance in the air.
Makes me think of a neon-hair Nea behind a Trapper mask saying how easy Killer is.
This forum is pro survivor? That was a good one.
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554582#Comment_3554582
really ? is that so? omg :O then let's quickly forget that Otz used to be "op" as survivors and were much stronger than the killers, but Otz the beast still managed a 100+ 4k streak with Plague and many other 50+ streaks, btw In the past, people didn't do streaks, Otz was one of the few, which is why there are a lot more of them these days, plus Otz, with his current level of knowledge, would also be able to do a 1k streak sooner (because he is of course much more experienced than he used to be), Question: are Otz's 100+ streaks worth less because they were earlier? Didn't he do that at a time when DH for distenc, DS 5sec, Med kits were op, IW (100%), Spine Chill (all stealth things were aniled) + Resillianc, exsested? Many builds in the "red ranks" looked like this: DH+IW+SpineChill+Resil, against swf 4x gl :)), but Otz the Beast still managed a 100+ 4k streak
Now its your turn! what was the matter this time? Killer was already op back then? or cause in that time, there was no “MMR” in? tell me, or that all happen, cause there is no matchmaking in dbd,
The only time when the streaks didn't exist was when MMR was freshly made, there weren't that many bad players in the pool, neither Otz or any pRo comp player tried it, that was also the best time for that Personally, a lot of "comp" Nurse and Blight players, we often won or drew against them & I played crossplay off with other comp players against comp killer for years... also I've played against more comp players than you've looked at comp games, so I can tell if your great "comp pros "If you lose to a killer other than Nurse, Blight, Spirit, then I'm sorry to tell you this, but they're just bad! :/ And just because someone calls themselves a comp player doesn't mean they're good, but that's the sad reality for you, how do you become a comp player? you have friends, you make a team and sign up for tournaments, BOOM! Congratulations you are a good player! According to your definition, trust me, most comp players are not so good as you think, ofc there are very good players in the comp scene, but most realy good players, you don't hear much from them caus most of them don't stream and the people you see on the internet are just people who are with Play with friends, there are also many good players who neither stream nor play comp
MMR makes a difference, so yes - if you are up against random people as it used to be, it was more likely to get a 4K. Obviously.
Because MMR is in play, 4K or win streaks should actually be now harder then it used to be. The opposite is the case. Talking about a 50 or 100 wins in a row from a kaliber like Otz on killer in the past - now every random dude apparently can pull this of.
While it should be harder to pull those streaks off as mentioned, we see now 200, 500 or even 1000 wins in a row on killer. Logically speaking, this can only mean 1 thing.
It became more easy to do for killer. Interestingly enough, Survivor streakes peaked years ago.
And no, your statement that in the past people did not try streakes is simply wrong. Unless we are talking 2016.
Or am i missing somthing?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554593#Comment_3554593
Without camping and tunneling?
I am not denying the correct fact you came up. In comp camping and tunneling is standard. Besides the Blight (Alchemist Ring and Compound just rolls over every team) and Nurse games, camping is mandatory.
But camping and tunneling is also not uncoming besides those tryhard matches, right? When we assume the killer is not camping and tunneling, we would ballance around the mercy of the killer. That might be in fact the case that many killers play nice in public, still - they manage to win even by that a large portion of games.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554582#Comment_3554582
Comp szene has usually high restrictions for survivors. Like no repeated perks. Meanwhile killers usually camp and tunnel hard in comp matches. I wonder how those comp matches would go if every survivor could take perks without restrictions and killers would be "forced" to not tunnel/camp.
We had no restriction games, killer won.
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554410#Comment_3554410
no Matchmaking! simply, dbd is the only game I know (that is famous) and it has such bad matchmaking that anything is possible, look: whether you believe me (I have 10k+ hrs in dbd) or not, I don't care :D But if the game had matchmaking, all killers who do a lot of kills would eventually reach a real high mmr and meet people who hit them so hard against the wall that they only play Nurse, Blight, because otherwise they have no chance, but the win -streaks are ONLY possible because dbd doesn't have matchmaking, it's also logical thinking, because if it had matchmaking, it wouldn't be possible because you often get good opponents, the priority for bhvr is: short queues over longer waits but quality games
the proof that the killers make a high win streak is not = killer is op
One question: why don't we say (according to bhvrs stats) Plague, Dreadge and Wesker are better than Nurse and Blight, because why else do they have a higher win rate-kill rate? "That can only be because the three and other killers are much stronger than Nurse, Blight" no! of course not! someone who has no idea about the game would go by the stats and, which is understandable, would follow them, but the reality is that Nurse alone would be better than a killer who would have Wesker's dash + Plagues infaktion + Dreadges loose ports, the killer would have everything, but not at all because he would still be stopped by pallets :)) Not Nurse!
I am not sure what you are saying here, but if i understand you right, the matchmaking is bad because killer only run into bad survivors. Or a group with survivors with one or two weaklings, right? Or am i misunderstand this?
If this is true, this would not explain 200+ wins in a row (at this point with more or less any killer) by any means. Assuming, that 200 games in a row is full of bad survivors on the highest MMR is extremly unlikely - i would even say impossible. While you might say that it is true, it is just a different form of saying "Get good, survivors" or "killer are the superior players".
The next thing is the comp scene. I am following this quite a bit and i know the rules. There are some restrictions to comp, for both sides equaly, but i have noticed, that even on comp, killer is way above average killrate. 3 kills on average seems to be very realistic. I might be wrong and i may do some statistics for that, but from what i have seen during the whole season, killer have the clear upper hand.
To top this all off: The record on any comp team is 200 games in pubic matches (3 escapes). And the best comp teams had games against top tier killer with no restriction and lost.
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They are smaller, gives a bigger field of view
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553314#Comment_3553314
I think the main issue tbh isnt the amount but where they are located, half the time you get crappy dead zones but then you get like 5 pallets all next to each other making looping a nightmare, when you get a pallet cluster survivors have it way to safe bc they can just drop a pallet and run to the next or greed it and run to the next, they really need to fix that imo
There is some truth in it of course. Dead zones create other zones with a lot of pallets. This is not true for all maps of course. Many maps have such a low number of pallets, even with deadzones, the other zones often just feel normal.
The problem is a mix between all those things imo. Many pallets these days are very unsafe und not playable. At the same time, those who are around are not many. Droping 1-2 of those anyway relative unsafe defenses often makes a big part of the map already unsuable for survivors.
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553444#Comment_3553444
"killer is too easy" this impression can only arise if you don't have that much knowledge of the game, if you look at it in general then killers are still much weaker than survivor (except Nurse, Blight) all killers would fight against experienced survivors (5k+ hrs) 10/10 games will be destroyed, that doesn't mean a "main killer" but a main survivor who is also good at killing, after 10k+ hrs in this great game (ironic)
If you play 10K hours on any killer, no matter if its on nurse or Freddy, you wont be destroyed by survivors. If a somewhat above average killer can get 150 wins with the freakin Pig, nobody should ever complain again that killer is a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4leZmbxjS8Oh, and he is just on 2K hours on the pig, so a LONG way to 10K.
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Can somebody explain me, why we are talking about a competetive ballancing? So.. just only for the pro players? Even in comp, killer gets most of the time a 4K. Feel free to watch DBDLeague.
So no, the game is not Killer sided on regular bases, it is killer sided on all levels at this point.
So lets talk about Made for this!
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Can somebody teach me please why Blood Lodge is the best map of Ghostface? I dislike this map with him.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553550#Comment_3553550
You're making an awful lot of assumptions about me there. But that's okay.
DBD is really not that unbalanced anymore. If this was 3-4 years ago, sure. But not so much anymore. There is actually a fair resemblance of balance in DBD, and it can be fine tuned by picking certain maps for certain killers and placing certain limits on perks/addons/items - you know - exactly what comp does.
Do you have any arguments in defense of MFT specifically or do you just not like me personally?
Not speaking in anyones behalf, but there is an argument.
Its a perk. 3% movement speed is annoying, but so are 15% on Play with your food - but simply much more powerful (while harder to achieve. Coup has, as mentioned the same effekt. Why is the whole forum crying over it so much?
Are killer mains really that spoiled by BHVR (?) that a silly perk like this is even a thing? How about we finally nerf some killer + its addons to a decent level instead of something that is not nearly as oppressive/annoying as a Alchemist Ring for example?
Its odd, this forum is so full of crying killer mains, its mindblowing at this point. Sorry, not mean to offend anybody, but objectivly speaking - if you are still in no way able to win your games as a killer (and it botters you to loose), maybe its time to try survivor? Since this must be clearly the easy role.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553314#Comment_3553314
I 100% believe you. The picture I posted was 10 months old in my source thread - so only god knows how old it really is.
The thing I also noticed and complained about a lot is, that about every 1-2 weeks or so a single pallet from some random map goes missing on average.
Sometimes the count goes brutally down - like with reworked cowshed or the last time they changed the game (from 32 pallets on average to 25 - this is also the point from which I consider the map rather killer sided then surv sided).
Like I do understand that those maps WERE unfair. No argument there. But why is it always only (with small exceptions like at least breaking the worst 3gen on one RPD) maps that favor survivors, that need to ve changed while saloon and Midwitch "looks to be perfect" - and there are many more killer favoring maps then those 2.
I can not confirm that they reduce the pallet spawns frequently since i am only back less then a month. But i was suprised to say the least how extreme they buffed killer in every department. Dont get me wrong, some stuff had to get adjusted, but i think they went way to far with so many things.
The problem is, as you mention the killer main mentality. I can understand why that is. You win 20 games in a row with killer, then you get destroyed a single time by a very strong team or bad rng and you forget completly that you just had a streak. The one game where the killer gets destroyed sticks out so much, that it overshadows all the previous victories. I for myself can confirm this.
On the other hand, in survivor games, it is not such a big deal when you die, and actually the great games where you held the killer for a long time sticks out the most, you forget that you just got facecamped 3 times in a row.
My final suggestion for the devs: Add more pallets and the majority of realms, make those absurd unsafe pallets more safe. After all the killer buffs this game apparently had in the last 2 years, it is time to adjust into the other direction. Dont let yourself get fooled by killer main complains, they are in most cases unjustified. Look at the data. 60% winrate on killer is not normal. Especially because the real number is much higher (Killer give hatch, killer also stay afk, killer farm, killer have mercy and let the last survivor(s) do the remaining gens ect).
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
Most unhealthy thing for the game is blight, it could be knight if he was more popular but right now it's blight, when half of your games are against blights Dbd is quickly boring
playing against knight is horrible you can't fix that without a complete rework
Blight is in my opinion a nice killer, VERY powerful, but to some degree more or less fair. The problem i see more are 2 things: The low amount of average pallets you get + the low amount of actually safe pallets (check out my research on that matter if you want) and even worse - many of his addons are plain and simple unfair.
I said everything i think about the Knight. Not OP, but unhealthy for gameplay. Someone can also make a strong argument about Bubba (one of my most favourite killers to play and to verse) due to his exceptional strenght on camping a hooked survivor.
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
- Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones. Strange choice.
Bro what game are you playing? every map has around 20 pallets..... like what? you clearly didnt count right bc no map has less then 10 pallets dude....
Hey AutmLeaf
Your 20 pallets example is a bit extreme, and it really might (or might not) only apply to a single realm, which is The Game. I admit that having like 8 or even less pallets is also an extreme example, but it happens relative often. I had it on multible occasions during my research.
Talking about reseach:
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551488#Comment_3551488
It was an example. This is absolutely not the only map. But sure. You made me look it up, so here goes:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CXXC98KQTMB4/image.png
I suppose shelter woods is obsolete as this table is most likely just before the rework. Also as you can see this list is pretty much incomplete - I would wonder about pallet count for new cowshed for example. Grim pantry and Rotten fields are also good candidates (the minimum will be somewhere around 10 - I am not saying it's definitely below, but I am sure minimum is 100% below 15 for both of them and possibly yes below 10)
One final note - you have been playing the game for 6 years and still didn't find these spawns? Especially on old shelter woods? How? That had less then 10 pallets very very very frequently (like 6 was extreme, but 7-9 was quite common).
I was a bit skeptical about that data, since my senses usually wont betray me by estimating or guessing in something i regulary do. Those numbers seem to be way to high to be true, so i did my own testing again, over a course of 140 tries across multible maps. All my data i collected is double and even tripple checked and completly honest.
First i started with "very pallet intense" maps acording to the link you posted. Here are my result:
- Eyrie of Crows: Supposed to have between 12 and 26 pallets, which makes it an average of 19. This number is far far off my research. I have not encountered a single time more then 16 pallets. In fact, out of the 20 tries i had on this map, i had 17 rounds with 13 pallets, 1 time 16, 1 time 12 and 1 time 11 (checked multible times) which is off the charts. This all makes an average of exactly 13 pallets.
- Shattered Square: This one is supposed to have an absurd number of an average of 20 pallets. My average was way lower then that, and i have not been on a single map with more then 15 pallets in my 20 tries. The average: 13,9 Pallets per trial.
- Since people talk about that map, i did 20 tries on Wreckers Yard. All my tries were between 12 and 14 pallets. The average was 12,9 pallets.
- Rotten field: Average of 10,5 pallets, had tries with 9 pallets, maximum of 13.
- Thomson House: Maybe i was really unlucky in my 20 games, but i had not a single map with more then 10 pallets! 9 or 10 pallets are the standard there. 9,5 Pallets on average.
- Mothers Dwelling, i did only a few on those had between 10 and 12 pallets.
- Last but not least the "requested" Cowshed. Between 12 and 14 pallets. 20 games seed.
What is even more outstanding besides a very low amount of pallets is this:
The amount of pallets that are not even considered "weak" but rather a safe hit are very high. You encounter those like i show in the picture on almost every single map, often more then 1 of those "tiles". If you rules those out, the pallet count is much lower obviously.
Another thing that stand out are the amount of pallets on the very outside of the map. If you are forced as a survivor to play those, you might steal some time, but you are guaranteed to go down there since you are zone out.
This brings me to another thing: Deadzones.
What you see on that picture is not uncommon. In fact i almost had on every map those deadzones. On this picture, there is only 1 pallet (main building) and 1 bad tile (T&L). This area is like 25-30% of the map. And for those sneaky players out there, i dont need to mention the lack of possibilitys.
I did more smaller research (like for example Coal Tower which had between 7 and 11 pallets or dead dawg saloon). But i thought i would not include those, since i am also excluding the most survivor sided map (the Game) in terms of pallets.
Kind regards
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551302#Comment_3551302
That is not the same thing at all. The killer is not in control of whether or not the survivor gets another loop in. I don’t decide “yeah I’ll run another loop to counter it!” The survivor just gets another loop. That’s not playing around it. You don’t even get the hit either, the survivor just gets an extra loop.
With Coup, the survivor decides to drop the pallet early. If I don’t want to get hit with Coup, I’ll play safer, drop pallets early etc. Same with Spirit Fury. Or do you think Spirit Fury is also unhealthy for this game?
Coup has counter play, MfT does not.
That would imply the same to killers with coup. Survivors loop around an object 3 times instead of 2 because of Mft. Killers cut down 3 loops to 2 loops because of Coup. I dont see the difference here.
@xltechno said:
It is true that opinions are divided on MtF. Still, many players, at least those who are experts at both Survivor and Killer, say that most of them are OP.
This is because many maps, created by bad map designers, have pallet loops that can be safely looped around without thinking, and can often convert distances that are less than one loop into one loop at certain points.
As a result, all 4.4m Speed killers other than those that could call themselves advanced became extinct.
Speaking of knights, the camp is no longer a threat.
Many people who disagree with this are those who don't know the value of having two people come to the rescue, or exchande onhook even though the hook grab has been removed from this game.
The value of 2 people running to the hook is 0. If you send in 2 people for a secue, you simply loose the game (unless gens are done)
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551058#Comment_3551058
Getting hit once is not too late. After the first time it activates you know it is in effect and can play around it. That’s how most perks work.
For example, you don’t know a survivor has Lithe or Sprint Burst until it activates but you can play around them every other time after that. You don’t know a killer has Bamboozle or Spirit Fury/Enduring until it gets you.
But unlike MfT, those perks and Coup can be played around after you identify it’s in game. You can’t with MfT, which is what the problem with that perk is.
How to play around Coup? By droping the pallet super early, right?
Then we could say the same about Mft. Play around it by running one more loop.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551058#Comment_3551058
""I did not say that."
Your exact words "True, but camping is still to powerful on him."
I appologise. What i mean is "Yet, a Killer who is designed for camping, no matter if we talk about hook or generators is by default bad for DbD."
Camping itself is in non comp games or in most situations not the smartest strategy in my opinion, but it can be very frustrating for players when it happens. Especially annoying when the killer camps basement entreance and sets his minion on top.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551058#Comment_3551058
With the maps being reworked (Developers adding more junk around, more LOS breaking) Nurse is already in a rough spot, have you tried to play her on a reworked maps?
I'm not a "God nurse" but I'm pretty decent with her, and I'm actually having a rough time playing on reworked maps, against decent survivors who knows the counters to her.
Besides the nerfes she already got, to her power and addons. Like come on, all "op" stuff were removed from her.
Nurse is ok now for an S-tier killer.
To be fair, i am only back on playing this game since roughly 2 weeks after a 2 years break and i bearly have more then 50 games on her so far. Therefore the majority of survivors i face with her are probably not the best. Yet, as expected, i have not lost a game with her. I think i have been on very map so far and there are some issues (red forest for example). But that does not change the outcome of the game in 99% of the time. The maps might need some tuning, but nurse is still op.
I think here is were we probably wont agree at all: I dont think there should be anything like S-Tier in the game. I am all for a ballanced experience. S-Tier is called S-Tier because its op/broken.
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@Grigerbest said:
Stop nerfing the Nurse, she's actually fine now.
Hope and Mft should not just work together.
"How the f Coup de Grace breaking the rules of the game...?" I didn't get that sentence.
Knight's minions instantly despawn when survivors are even touching a hooked person.
Skull Merchant's rework is on it's way. You can check PTB.
The nurse is definitly to powerful. There are experienced nurse players with 500 or even 1000 wins in a row that highlight that fact.
Breaking the rules of the game - well, the same way Mft is breaking the rule in a chase. You get for nothing (in that case even failing) a massiv boost over the other side. The question is rather, when you think Mft is not okay, why should Coup be?
@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550725#Comment_3550725
You can tell Coup is in effect after it triggers the first time. Yes the first time it activates you are caught off guard and will most likely get hit, but anytime after that you’ll be able to play around it by dropping pallets early and playing safer.
With MfT, even if you know it’s in effect there’s nothing you can do. While it would be nice to when MfT is in effect, it’s problem is that there’s nothing you can do about it once you do figure out it’s in play.
As you say, you know the person has it, once its to late. To get this straight, i dont think it is overpowered, i just think it should not be in the game because stuff like that is unhealthy for the gaming experience. Like is said, Mft has the exact same issue as Coup.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550725#Comment_3550725
I'd be curious why you think camping is too powerful on Knight?
I did not say that. I think camping in general is often not the best strategy. Yet, a Killer who is designed for camping, no matter if we talk about hook or generators is by default bad for DbD.
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@NerfDHalready said:
mft: yes please
hope: idk, w/o mft it never was an issue and it's just an end game perk. you might not even get to have any value from it.
coup: perk's fine but 2 stacks per gen is a bit much not gonna lie, maybe like 1 stack for first gen done, 2 stacks for 2nd 1 for 3rd and so on might be better. way too many stacks right now. or 1 stack per gen like pre buff but you only use one if you extend your normal lunge.
knight's guard facecamping is irrelevant so it's a non issue imo, especially after hook grabs gone. hook grabs were the only thing made this annoying: you commit and get rid of the guard but you might've gotten grabbed, or don't commit and get 2 tapped. (guards disappear if you go deep into unhooking animation, for anyone who doesn't know)
dull merchant is on ptb i think still. do you not like the changes she is about to get or are you not aware that she is just getting reworked?
things to add: map offerings. maps are objectively unbalanced, the least they could do is to remove map offerings so people can't abuse broken maps.
@BlightedDolphin said:
I agree MfT needs to be changed.
Hope is only a problem because of MfT.
I think Coup is fine right now.
Skull Merchant is already getting a rework (thank god).
Knight already has an anti-camp mechanic where the guard despawns when someone touches the hooked survivor.
While Mft activates a gamechanging mechanic during looping because of failing as survivor (getting injured), Coup gets the same unfair effect also at failing (loosing gens).
Also both perks are secret to some grade. Actually, an experienced killer can see if the surv is running mft, but there is no indicator of seeing Coup.
If they leave Mft that way, survivors running it should be highlighted. Same with Coup.
My personal rework for Coup would be like this:
- For every hooked survivor, you gain 5% increased lunge range.
- Missing a lunge reduces the range by 5%.
About the Knight. True, but camping is still to powerful on him. In fact the Knights mechanic encourage this playstyle.
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@Alice_pbg said:
did you know they broke the record for fastest escape in a random lobby recently? 2:57 seconds. I think that's neat. 3 people out by the 3 minute mark
Did you know that the highest 4K in a row on killer is over 1000?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/391616/after-2-years-not-playing-the-game
-- Way to much fog. I know, Horror game and so, but i personally and probably most others wont get scared by that game anyway, besides beeing in an intense chase.I don't know what you mean by this. Maps seem pretty clear unless offerings are brought.
-- Something is wrong with fast vaults. Is this a bug or intentional?They "fixed" fast vaults to make the animations more in line with what was supposed to be happening and for a short while fast vaults actually felt fast (maybe about a month ago). However, that created a bug were male characters vaults were getting superior distance. Thus they reverted the fix so they could try and fix the new issue, but that created even more of a break were now fast vaults aren't working.
That's my understanding, bug.
Overall, it feels like the devs are aiming for a 70% killrate for whatever reason. Stats show that 60% rate is already reality and those were apparently before some majore survivor nerfs. Why?The goal is supposed to be a 60% kill rate, though for many survivors it feels like a 40% escape rate is a great day. Their logic, which in my opinion is pretty solid on this, is to achieve a 50/50 split, the data needs to actually be 60% for killers, because with four survivors there is a much greater chance of one of them throwing the match (example: afk) then there are matches thrown by the killer.
I will abandon survivor for a bit and see how killer is going but so far i feel i will also jump on TCM hype train and see how this plays.I haven't played TCM, doesn't seem for me, and have no idea on the game's merits, but right now the steam player counts have TCM just short of 6,000 players, while DbD is a little under 42,000; though maybe gamepass is really helping out TCM.
This might be a bit early to judge, but some new killers like the alien can do everything at once. Teleport, ignoring pallets/windows, beeing stealthy and still 115%? Seriously who came up with that?I don't think a meta has developed yet on how to play against alien. Some survs think the turrets are a waste of time, others that keeping alien knocked out of his power makes him incredibly weak.
Thanks for this great reply!
About the fast vaults. I hope i understand you correctly, since i dont know any of the issue the game had recently. It seems to me that fastvaulting does not give you that much of a distance then it used to be back in 2020/21. The animation looks shorter, not really like a fast vault, more like a medium. This is a bug, correct? If so, that is something they really should fix asap, it is very game changing.
About 60% killrate. That makes some sense, i agree with you. But on the other side, how should devs know this accuratly who benefits more? For example, the killer is the only role who can determine, how the game goes. So if he stays afk, its 4 escapes. If he decides to farm, it is a 4 escape. On top of that, he can give hatch for free or let the last 1 or 2 players escape through the gate, which happens commonly. I can remember a survey where almost 20% of the killers always let the last survivor escape. I am one of them. The devs cant possible know if it not actually the way around and free hatches, farming ect actually lowers the "real" killrate more then afk or throwing survivors are.
Yes i saw that it is only like 7 or 8.000 playing this game. Interestingly enough, many of the DBD content creators i follow changed since weeks to that game and are all praising it (as far as i have seen). Same goes for those who are in my friendslist (many DBD players), i see them all only in TCM anymore.
About the Alien. Well like i said, it might be to early to fully make a statement on that killer, those were only my first thoughts. I also have the same early feelings for other "new" killers aswell. Like the Raven Birdy Lady, who can just close loops and can crossmap even better then huntress (while still be 115%, ######### is that?) or The Mastermind. Somehow he is able to do so many things at once. A passive slowdown with the exposed timer, beeing able to vault pallets and a very insane gapecloser and extremly strong chase power.
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@Emeal said:
Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones.
Objectively false statement.
I am not talking about recent updates, i am talking about the difference between now and 2 years ago. My statement is absolutly correct, check out some older videos and compare them with now if you like. I was shocked by how extreme the difference is, not even subtile. If i had to guess they were cutting the pallet count per map by a minmum of 2, rather 3. And like i said, those pallets we have now are much unsafer then they used to be. And jungle gyms are extremly rare, instead you get terrible tiles like this "new" 2 Window thing or tons of 4 wall tiles. I had maybe 2 or 3 long wall gyms in 3 days of playing.
@HansLollos2 said:
I agree with the Colors. The Games whole Atmosphere changed way to much. It was way better back then when it cames to the Atmosphere. Darker Colors, Darker Game, better Lighting etc. and many Maps had a bit of a dark colored Filter on it.
It looked amazing, just watch some old 2016-2018 DbD Build Videos. The Devs/Art Team know about that, it was even a Question in the last Player Satisfaction survey. I Hope they also know that they just need to change/rework the Art Direction of all Maps back to how they were back then.
Absolutly agree on that. I think they did a decent job with the McMillian changes or maybe Corn maps tho. Others like Toba Landing, Nostromo or Shattered square look subjectivly speaking of course really bad. It is the first time in the games history that i feel this way.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2585664#Comment_2585664
I did but why are you bringing up Saloon specifically? Is it because of its size?
Yes, i thought its clear because of the context.
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@GannTM said:
Saloon isn’t as killer sided as people think it is.
You have not read my posting, so why bother replying?
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@shelobster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2585431#Comment_2585431
Oof is that salt I taste! Yumm
No salt at all, i simply dont get how anybody can be stupid enough to fall into his own trap.
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@shelobster said:
After 2k hours of never using flashlights, meta perks and never t-bagging- I'm done.
All the tunneling, camping, slugging, snoop boop bating, hook smacking, closing the hatch in survivor's face etc - I'm so tired of it. I figured I'd either quit the game or turn into a flashlight clicking t-bagging DS abuser. And guess what? I did just that and I'm loving it!
I finally get it, why killers are so toxic all the time. It's damn fun. I encourage all other survivors to join in. Trust me the game is so much more fun that way. No wonder all the streamers play that way.
And damn I love the sound of a flashlight going clickety click.
So you became what you hate because of your weak personality? Good job.
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Halloween
Because it is a great trailer and was the chapter which started it all. Without it, who knows if DbD would even still excist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DfYaDMTDZM -
The only change DH needs (and its a big one, i know) is the 0,5 seconds invincibility. Remove that and DH is still a good perk but more fair.
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@UkilledLegion said:
because last uptade finally made killers into clowns for fun
Why is that? Did i miss something?
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I dont know, she looks like she is wearing a cheap halloween costume. So here is my question: Is she wearing a cheap halloween costume?
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Longer then 6 months.
Reason: The trend of recently very unfun killers. Deathslinger, Twins, PH, Trickster...
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2572359#Comment_2572359
I am not saying you will react to the shot, but you can react to ADS easily and Deathslinger can't flick because of his lower sensitivity while ASD and weird POV.
He can't get away with just shooting, he has to hold ADS, which looks like #########.
Well, reacting to ADS means you are also reacting to his fake. I was not debating that, but here some seriously claim, you can react to the actual shot.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2572289#Comment_2572289
You can easily react to it on 10+ meters and dodge it, because it is not like Huntress car projectile, it's super small.
Better players have reaction time around 300 ms, pro players can get around 120-150. This is 400ms + travel distance.
What that means? He can't just shoot survivors looking behind. Survivors don't need to predict really when he shoots, they only need to predict if he is going to, so it's 50/50, where Deathslinger is punished hard, if he gets it wrong.
He is forced to zone with walking ADS while you dance for him. So much fun...
I explained above, why it is impossible to react to his shot. On max range, it might be if the server is good (which we all know is not the case), your ping is great and you have decent reaction time. On 20 meters, it is impossible.
And 10 meters?
You have 250 milliseconds between shot fired and hit. The reaction and movement time alone is not even enough (even for the fastest human on earth) to doge that. Now take into consideration the massiv delay we have on our servers. Compare POV from survivor and killer and you will see that there is a big difference from the action the killer takes to what the survivor sees. The delay alone makes it already impossible to dodge the 10 meter shot.
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@PalletsAndHooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2572169#Comment_2572169
Hims, plural. I have not ever struggled against a cowboy and these changes are going to make it easier to lock him down. 200 to 300 milliseconds for both the cowboy and the survivor, as it would take the average cowboy that long to be able to confirm he wants to attempt to ADS, correct? What I don't see accounted for in your description is the time it takes cowboy to aim, which is dependent on predictable environmental factors. Since the conditions for a successful shot are going to require the same constraints you described about the survivor, it's pretty clear there's more than enough reactive tolerance for a survivor to anticipate the shot.
It is totally irrelevant how quick the Slinger is with shooting since you have no idea if he is actually shooting until you see the projectile or hear the little delayed BANG. He could just fake it or not. If you react to his fake, this is not reacting to his shot. And reacting to the shot is the millisecond AFTER he actually fired the shot.
Therefore, how is this relevant if he takes 200 millisecond to shoot? It also takes 200 millisecond to fake.