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  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992524#Comment_3992524

    Abandon will kick in for both sides, so I don't think it will ultimately matter too much.

    Survivors don’t just abandon the match the second they gotta have a chance to stand back up, at least not in the lobbies I get. That whole “they’ll insta-quit if they go down again” is pure survivor cope.

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @CrypticGirl said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992531#Comment_3992531

    MMR isn't going to fix tunneling or slugging. New/low MMR Killers will tunnel and slug because they don't know how to handle their power/aren't familiar with the map or mechanics, etc. etc. High MMR players tunnel and slug because they feel their opponents are too skilled to beat by playing fair.

    And Killers at any MMR level will tunnel and slug because it's the easiest way to win. No MMR adjustment will fix that.

    And? That’s always been the game. Learn it. Learn to chase. Hold the tunnel. Buy your team time. If an opponent on equal skill tunnels you: take the fight. Fight back. Especially when a bad killer tunnels a bad survivor — that survivor learns a lot about the map, the resources they have, and how to actually use them.

    That’s literally how everyone started out in DBD. Back then I even ran the old Object of Obsession for a long time — where killer and survivor could see each other permanently, no cooldown. And yup, I went down. I went down a lot. But I kept going down until I finally learned how not to, how to extend a chase, how to improve.

    Getting better is part of PvP games. Staying stuck in the ‘but that’s not fair’ mindset, refusing to improve, and then demanding changes from your own unwillingness to learn

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992118#Comment_3992118

    thank you survivor mains for the pretentious answers, but no you haven’t been “getting punished” for doing the objective. Sure they implemented a slowdown because if you could stack up and do a gen in 20 seconds the game wouldn’t be fun for anybody.

    You're factually wrong. Survivors get punished for doing their objectives, people have provided multiple examples in this and other threads.

    You think those examples are good and that what BHVR will be instituting is bad.

    And you can discuss that, though it would make far more sense to wait for some actual numbers. But a lot of people don't want to get into the nuance of the balance of say a 10% basekit Pop vs the potential of a 15% gen increase in certain situations.

    Because that's a boring and complex discussion. People want to rage (I get it, its fun, and I think BHVR is thrilled when they get 'passion' like this). They want to act like they are being singled out and BHVR is playing favorites. They aren't. They are trying to improve the game. They've done it many times in the past and, sometimes, they've screwed it up.

    And people can, and will, discuss all of that. During the PTB, after the PTB, for years afterwards. But it won't be nearly as exciting as getting to claim that you're being single out and victimized.

    it would make far more sense to wait for some actual numbers.

    Wait for numbers”…


    But is it really just about numbers? Even if BHVR handed killers some kind of bigger advantage to win matches (which won’t happen, because the so-called buffs killers get are a joke compared to what strong groups squeeze out of their “goodies”)… Even then, the killer gets punished simply for not sitting back and watching a survivor team play ULTRA bad and make awful mistakes, without reacting to it. Survivors get to walk away from situations completely for free, where they absolutely should’ve faced consequences for their garbage playstyle – just because the killer “isn’t supposed to.”

    So what now, the killer isn’t allowed to actually be a killer? Or to be smart? The logic behind this is insane. Survivors keep getting more tools to play badly without consequence, while killers get punished for reacting smartly. That’s wild. No other PvP game works like this – you don’t give bad players a boost and a bunch of cotton candy while shackling the ones who are actually playing well.

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @TragicSolitude said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992279#Comment_3992279

    I started playing in 2018, so I remember a lot of that stuff. Different times.

    I'm not perfect, I'd never claim I am. I'm still learning, and in some areas I'm pretty sure I've plateaued because I'm a casual player. I accept that, I don't expect the game to change itself because I have difficulty using what resources the game gives me. What needs to change is SBMM, which puts me with teammates who are way, way worse than me. And I mean teammates who are so useless and only exist to sandbag others to the point where, if I let them die, the match goes better.

    SBMM is the game's biggest problem. BHVR is making huge changes to other stuff before fixing that, which is like building on top of a faulty foundation. The house is wobbling so they keep adding fancy new pillars and arches to hold up the second story better but the foundation holding up the first story (which is holding up the second story) is still wobbling. If and when they finally get around to fixing the foundation, there's no guarantee the other stuff they built hasn't cracked and deteriorated because it wasn't properly supported when it was built. And now they have to change or outright tear down all the stuff they added when they should've been working on the foundation in the first place. It's a waste of time and money and effort, and it frustrates the playerbase who is going to have to roll with the changes but is not going to ultimately be happy because the thing really causing a lot of their problems is still broken.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992281#Comment_3992281

    You'd have to grind for months to do the same with killers.

    Every time a killer is removed and the perks go general pool, I then see them so, so much more. That's not a surprise, obviously, but it does show that yes, good perks being free and easily accessible is a huge factor. I know BHVR needs players to spend money for the game to survive, but killers get the short end of the stick here. Survivors probably buy more cosmetics than killers, so instead killers have to buy their kit. Which sucks when you're the one against the four. People argue about the best killer (Nurse) being available for free, but I play on console, and on PS4 and Switch… hahaha no. Killers who require fine motor control but handle like a bus with a framerate that would make some people cry are not good options. Analog sticks and triggers are not good for frame-perfect adjustments, especially when the opponent has anywhere from double to quadruple your framerate.

    … there's a reason I've pretty much stopped playing killer. Doesn't mean I think killers should be forced into playstyles like NPCs, though.

    yes.. exacly this ! :/

    I’ve been saying this for weeks, man. We don’t need anti-slug or anti-tunnel. We just need working MMR.

    Half the time the match is doomed before it even starts, ‘cause the lobby throws in 2 survivors that are way too weak for my lobby. Then I go 100% as killer, but those 2 aren’t even bringing their 25% each. Not even at the beginning. Suddenly the whole team is already handicapped.

    And then they go crazy fast down.

    And the moment this crazy fas down happens..

    • good players gotta take bad positions,
    • they end up eating hooks,
    • pallets already wasted,
    • anti-gen perks hitting harder.

    So it’s not 25+25+25+25 vs 100 anymore. It’s more like 5 + 10 + 15 + 25 vs 100.

    • 5 = the insta-down guy at the start
    • 10 = the player who farms an unsafe unhook or just runs in the open
    • 15 = the decent player trying to salvage the mess, taking hits to help teammates but his full 25% potential gets nerfed by having to cover for the weaker players
    • 25 = the one desperately pushing gens and trying to do the team objective while the rest of the team is dying.

    vs 100

    100 = me as killer, capitalizing on every small mistake the survivor team makes and snowballing from that.

    Fix MMR first. Everything else is just putting shiny decorations on a house with a broken foundation.

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992323#Comment_3992323

    It is basekit. Endurance off hook, AFC, and these new anti-slug and anti-tunnel changes all deactivate too. The perks also shut off like you said, of course.

    uhm… bside that..

    In a 2v1 situation, hatch is about to become a hot topic again once EGC kicks in. Before that, survivors still get their anti-slug, so the real question is: how much ping-pong between the last survivors are we gonna see? Like… how many times do killers have to pick them up, let them stand, smack them back down, let them crawl up again, and REPEAT… and REPEAT… just to stop a free hatch escape?

    Steam Community: Dead by Daylight.

    "nurse u doog.. report .. REPORT!" .. xD

    We already see in 2v8 how people hate being yo-yo’d back onto the floor over and over until everyone’s finally down long enough to actually secure the hatch denial. It’s gonna be spicy out there after this update, that’s for sure

    gonna be wild :D

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @TragicSolitude said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992230#Comment_3992230

    They got what they wanted.

    I play more survivor than killer these days, and I didn't want any of this. How do I opt out of this nonsense I didn't ask for and don't want in my matches? My teammates all go down in five seconds and die at 4 gens left, I'm used to it and it really is their fault for relying on sandbagging teammates and never bothering to actually get better at the game. We're getting to the point BHVR should just make killers NPCs if they want to take away the killer's ability to punish their opponents' mistakes.

    didn’t want this either. Really didn’t. But the moment you play something weak, people stop respecting you. You’re not even the killer in that match anymore. People chase with me to the hook. People farm their teammates right in front of me, just because they want to keep the pressure on their side: time efficiency for survivors, u know? No one on their team ever has to leave a gen. And then two gens pop -> because the guy in chase already farmed, so nobody else on the team had to ‘waste time,’ and I lose so much pressure because of that. And now I’m not allowed to get that pressure back by tunneling?

    And what about the person who tries to sabotage the hook right in my face -> if I manage to stop them, one person is hooked, another is slugged next to it, clearly bad plays, down-next-to-hook situation… and I as killer ‘amn’t allowed?’ Out of jail card for what?

    Or take my Nurse match in that video on page 1… people don’t even respect Nurse anymore. That Yun literally tried to go for a flashy save on my very first down on Alucard (they were ALL swarming me, hello, I’m a Nurse?). Felix was there with a flashbang, Claudette ALSO there with a toolbox to sabotage the hook if needed. But yipp, I’m supposed to give that group their fun time with me when I’m playing a normal M1 killer – and then not even be allowed to slug or tunnel? Sabo, flashbangs, double Background Player, and the whole team stacked right on top of me just to deny the first hook.

    I mean, luckily I was Nurse that game. I could do Nurse things. :D But… why am I the one who’s supposed to be punished as killer, and not the survivors? Bad positioning, all grouped around the killer, the WHOLE team, the killer has insane snowball potential there, and he KNOWS no one is on gens – but the killer isn’t supposed to tunnel? not to slug?

    That’s supposed to be the punishment for those high-risk survivor plays when they fail. Not some ‘I get out for free’ card.

    … I honestly hate this community by now. That’s why it’s not even hard for me to go all in with the current state of the game. Any lobby, whatever, especially with the next updates. Why no punishments for insta-unhooks? For chasing to the hook? For running greedy right in front of the killer? I mean, how many downs do you think you should get… especially against SWF, where two people run chase builds and the other two support builds with Shoulder, Babysitter, Reassurance, whatever… and someone literally decides to chase me, the killer, during the FIRST chase just so their teammate with the support perk doesn’t get targeted, or to set up Deliverance or whatever… hard bodyblocking me already in chase one. That guy farms his mate instantly, but I’m not supposed to tunnel? Even though the dude who just farmed clearly isn’t doing gens right now.

    I just come from a different time. Back when I started DBD, you usually had ONE chase. One chance

    Uhm… but… but… I was new once too. Like the survs that are xrying all the time now.

    Sure, back then we had boosted maps, omega loops, infinites, all the good stuff, but when I was completely new, you think it was any different for me than for new players now? I also didn’t know how to use the things on map properly. I was just new. Like many players today.

    And back then there was old Nurse, no recharge, with omega range addons, Huntress with multiple insta-down hatchets, red Moris and old facecamping (like real facecamping). You knew you often had only this ONE chance. And then: direct facecamp, insta Mori, and you are out. There was insta-saw Billy. Sure, there were old brand new parts, the old hatch, but still situation was: one chase… one chance. Then RIP.

    And as new player, you also didn’t know instantly how to use old omega structures. Killer was threat back then. So you learned game. Not by super stealth (I never was uch into stealth), but by thinking about your positioning, your movement, your camera control, your overall gamesense. Not 'I stay until last second on gen, killer coming'… not 'I never learn how to use pallets/windows/resources around me'. Back then you had to, more than today, where more second chances exist.

    Sure, old DS existed, active without hook, but only obsession got insta DS. Others had to wiggle first. Killer knew, and dropped you on way to hook. So yes, back then often many matches: one chance and you out. Versus Nurse no recharge + omega range addons, old insta saw Billy (I miss him <3), or Huntress with multiple one-shot hatchets. Like I said, one attempt, one chase. That’s it.

    You didn’t have so many second chances as today. Sure, survivor back then was boosted like crazy. But you were new, everyone was new, everyone had to learn first. And you learned. Because if not, many matches you went down once, one-shot, insta out. And only after you learned you realized what you actually had: boosted tiles, boosted items, old insta heals, old insta blinds, old exhaustion perks… but before that, you went through hard school against stronger killers than today.

    And even when you started to understand maps, the tools you had… then things like prayer beads Spirit came into game. You had to deal with positioning, develop gamesense. How many people today have hundreds or thousands of hours and still don’t use what they have?

    …but at the end of the day it’s always the same: ‘BHVR pls, we played super bad but now we want our freebies

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991706#Comment_3991706

    We’re gonna have sooo much fun, aren’t we?

    …aren’t we?

    No one was having fun playing with you to begin with, so threatening to make the game 'unfun' is a very hollow threat.

    uh?

    I mean… why?

    It’s not a threat, it’s just a consequence.

    Survivors asked for their goodies — they got their goodies — and they didn’t care that it ruined the killer experience for M1 killers and the weaker killers who have to rely on slugging and tunneling. They also didn’t care that it took away the killer’s ability to respond to certain survivor group plays.

    Some lobbies were already brutal with the current killer kits, but still fun to play because I had my counter-pressure tools.

    The survivor community didn’t care what that meant for killer gameplay — they wanted their goodies, they got them.

    idk..

    I’m fine with it. They got what they wanted. But I’m not going into matches just to lose and entertain certain survivor groups, giving them their free “ez tutorial killer and now watch me leave” moment at the exit. Nah. I’ll accept the change. I’ll adapt so that I can still have fun with the update myself.

    and at the moment i just warm up for this a bit :D

    But huh? Why does that make the game “unfun”? Survivors wanted the change, not me. I’m confused. Do they actually not enjoy what they asked for after all? They got their anti-tunnel, anti-slug, all of it. And still not happy? Just because the killer doesn’t play the way they want?

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Foggyguy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991805#Comment_3991805

    So in other words crogers was right and that the devs should push this update forward to deal with toxic killers.

    I’m not toxic. I just choose to take the “punishment” from BHVR, because I don’t agree with it. Survivors play super poorly and create a massive problem — and the way it gets “fixed” is by punishing the killer for it.

    So I’d rather play the strong killers where I feel I can play around the punishment, and just “compensate” for it with increased efficiency. ✨

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991706#Comment_3991706

    I don’t wanna lose the option to punish bad, dumb, super greedy, brazen, miserable survivor plays… without being punished myself and just handing them a free ride. Not happening. Not in my lobbies.

    You can still punish bad plays.

    Both sides make mistakes in games. Different mistakes have differing levels of penalties associated with them. I'm sure survivors thought it was great when killers made the mistake of chasing them into an infinite.

    So yup, I’ll just stick to top killers running full meta. Straight tunnel at 5 gens

    You still can, nothing is stopping you.

    We’re gonna have sooo much fun, aren’t we?

    I mean you were tunneling before, and you're going to be tunneling now. You're apparently having fun, all the survivor experience can do from here is go up.

    You still can, nothing is stopping you.

    And I will. And now not even just to win anymore. By now it’s mixed with other motivations.

    https://youtu.be/71FR41U8DQk

    I mean you were tunneling before, and you're going to be tunneling now. You're apparently having fun, all the survivor experience can do from here is go up.

    Yup. I hard tunneled before… I had fun with Sadako, with Myers, sometimes even running meme builds

    even played Hag once in a while (no one does that in high MMR). Good M1 chases are fun.

    But y, Nurse is what the community keeps asking for.

    So Nurse is my answer now.

    I used to give groups some breathing room when I played something strong. That’s over now.

    Congrats BHVR, you’ve created a game where the only right answer is Nurse.

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Xray said:

    There is no reason to panic just yet i doubt the changes will go live without major tweaks to them as they only have been announced for like a day and the backlash is getting pretty intense. If they do go live as they are right now i imagine the forums and twitter will look akin to a warzone

    I’m not panicking, I’ll adapt. Just kinda sucks, I was having a ton of fun with Sadako, Wraith (I love good M1 mindgames), and sometimes I even play killers like Hag or the super weak ones. I enjoy the challenge.

    But if I’m not allowed to tunnel anymore? Easy answer: Nurse only. And I’ll play harder than ever before

    Even if I get something on the side, a little ‘band-aid’ to make it not feel so bad when I’m the big bad tunneler… it’s still gotta be something strong. I want to be able to answer gens popping right in front of my face (into insta down from this surv) , sabo squads, people denying my very first hook with bodyblocks, syringes, whatver.. and wasting my time. Legit, those are good survivor plays, I’ll take it. But as killer I want to be allowed to answer accordingly.

    And especially… even with the strongest killers: if I see three survivors in front of me – one showing me clean movement, another trying to drag me into main and flex how sexy main is, and one running completely lost straight into a dead zone – I don’t want to be forced to just ignore that bad player blindly. I’m not gonna accept that. In PvP games, that’s part of it: if you play bad, you die until you learn.

    just don’t get it. Instead of survivors being punished for bad plays (super gen-greeding and going down for it instead of playing smart)… insta-unhooks, bad pathing, straight up bad movement in general – all the stuff that makes tunneling and slugging so tempting – it’s the killer who gets punished and told ‘you’re not allowed to

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991639#Comment_3991639

    if you're talking about the gen kick "catch up" survivors have to do that came after they nerf'd 3-gen strat. That also nerf'd gen-tapping and the 8 gen kick, survivor did ask for that.

    That's not even one of my examples.

    if you mean 3-genning then just spead your gens apart, not just do one next to the other back to back.

    Just spread out your hooks.

    Or put another way: if survivors just taking the most obvious route to their objective comes with punishments, why is it a problem if the killer is held to the same standard?

    well the same goes for the gen blocking the killer after 8 kicks, the killer is doing what their supposed to do.

    I never said there weren't other examples for killers. You wanted examples of survivors as if it didn't happen.

    yea but lets also not act like survivors arent able to get a 4man escape even when the killer plays well too.

    And killers will still be able to 4k.

    And killers will still be able to 4k.

    I don’t wanna lose the option to punish bad, dumb, super greedy, brazen, miserable survivor plays… without being punished myself and just handing them a free ride. Not happening. Not in my lobbies.

    So yup, I’ll just stick to top killers running full meta. Straight tunnel at 5 gens

    Anti-tunnel? Cute. Let’s see how far they make it.

    Worst case, I’ll just slap on an anti-gen perk on Nurse.

    Anti-slug? Heh, let’s run an experiment… how many times can you down the same survivor before they finally bleed out? :D Sounds fun, right?

    We’re gonna have sooo much fun, aren’t we?

    …aren’t we?

    in Punishing killers for completing their objective? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rizzo said:

    Could you please attach the logs?

    To find them:

    1. Press the Windows Key + R to open the "Run" command.
    2. In the text box paste the following: %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\DeadByDaylight\Saved\Logs
    3. Click "OK" - this will open your Dead by Daylight Logs folder.
      • If it does not open the Dead by Daylight Logs folder, it may mean that when installing Dead by Daylight you chose to save your files somewhere else and will need to check there.
    4. The file called "DeadByDaylight.log" is your log file

    Thank you.

    https://youtu.be/YSIIXr1VZz4

    Even in 2v8 you still see it all the time. :/

    DeadByDaylight-backup-2025.08.28-05.40.13.log DeadByDaylight-backup-2025.08.28-05.39.46.log DeadByDaylight.log
    in brief description of bug: Nurse bugs with blinks and fatigue Comment by oecrophy

  • @DaSonic said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987262#Comment_3987262

    Oh sorry, I didn't know I was talking to John Daylight himself.


    Have you ever considered that the fact that you might have a kill rate of 85%, which in and of itself simply shouldn't be possible, because you have 10k hours and are also resorting to tunneling given your responses? I was talking about the average Killer, that simply didn't play enough to develop all the necessary skills to thrive as a killer player (hence, why their MMR can still rise, since you should be at very high MMR with that amount of hours, probably close to the hardcap), and instead now hinders himself by tunneling every chance he gets, not about the 10k hour person that at that point probably developed sufficient macro-play (intentionally or not) along any other "tactics" they might employ, to even win games against objectively excellent survivors. I'm sure with your amount of hours you would still get well above the intended 60% killrate without tunneling, but maybe not 85% though, and that's what's stopping you.

    It's kind of mindblowing that you don't see an issue in these stats.

    wdym?

    I’ve just been a super active player since release. I’m just really careful with some of the people here on the forums. There are a ton of “forum mains.”

    The last person who tried to tell me about “cheap wins,” “low skill,” and “git gud, you just have to improve” had 5k posts on the forum but hadn’t even played 100 hours in DBD since 2021. I rack that up in two weeks easy.

    Sorry, but when someone plays so little (and not even on Killer), it’s hard for me to take any of their “advice” seriously. There are people (like me) who play this game competitively, and tunneling/slugging and all that stuff is just part of it.

    It’s just funny how it always goes in the direction of: “You don’t have macro and can’t play/win any other way.” Just because you pick the most efficient strategy whenever the opportunity presents itself (no, there are plenty of matches where straight tunneling isn’t the best choice).

    You can do this in a lot of standard-average lobbies (even in high MMR) without perks and without add-ons. It’s basically a coinflip if u against “average teams”—so why should I gamble?

    Especially when I read the mindset of a lot of people: “You just have to know how,” “You’re just bad,” “You haven’t developed the necessary skills.”

    Being constantly confronted with this mindset from the DBD community, something I’ve really never seen in any other PvP game, I’d rather just end these lobbys fast, clean, and as efficiently as possible.

    This survivor community is sometimes so entitled, (or people like u are just ready to throw out, “you can’t even play this game no macro/no skill) I just don’t care about weaker lobbies anymore.

    Not that you’re thinking of.

    "but maybe not 85% though, and that's what's stopping you."

    I honestly don’t give a damn about my kill rate, but I’ve got my principles.

    For me, it’s simple—just like in Tarkov, Hunt, CS, or basically any other PvP: learn the game and fight back, oru will die fast in this match. Yup, I know, DBD isn’t the same because it’s asymmetrical. But I’ve never seen a community so damn unwilling to learn, but honestly, every time I’m confronted with the mindset of people in this game (forum, after-chat, whatever), I really ask myself: why should I even care?

    And there are plenty of people who play the game competitively, and their perspectives and opinions can be pretty different from the (admittedly way bigger) casuals… but it’s always the ones who just want their experience to count.

    i mean.. like this guy:

    cogsturning

    Brother, you are wasting your time.

    …and tons of other “I downvote everything and my opinion is the only one that matters” people. :D

    classic dbd community.

    but..

    Luckily, at the end of the day, everyone can play however they want as long as they’re not abusing bugs, glitches, or breaking ToS. That’s exactly what I’ll keep doing myself—without holding back (not even in casual lobbies, because I know this community way too well). And yip,

    I’ll still keep saying it on the forums whenever this tunnel talk pops up again…:

    tunneling is part of the game.

    Slugging is part of the game.

    Proxy camping is part of the game.

    Both sides playing for the win is just part of the game

    Edit: One side easing up in weaker lobbies might be possible in DBD (compared to shooters), but it should never be the baseline expectation—yet that’s exactly what the survivor community constantly demands. And the moment you don’t play along, it’s always the same story in DBD. No gifts: survivors instantly show their worst side. That’s why I just end those matches as fast and clean as possible—give them a reason to finally start learning the game instead of just flaming or complaining.

    in Tunneling Comment by oecrophy

  • @DaSonic said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987256#Comment_3987256

    Well that depends on how far you are into the cycle. After all I have no idea how good the teams you are matched with are. That's probably something you can answer for yourself better than I can do for you, by analyzing what the survivors are bringing and how well they are utilizing everything at their disposal.

    It’s always the same. And I just find it hilarious how everyone talks about 'cheap wins'… with the oh-so-scary 'high MMR' like the evil tunneling killer is suddenly gonna get these teams ppl fhinks he deserve it because "big bad evil tunneling" and they ‘don’t wanna learn the game.’ After over 10,000 hours, with a constant grind of 100+ hours in two weeks, (and a kill rate of 85) I’m still waiting for these lobbies to actually exist.

    in Tunneling Comment by oecrophy

  • @DaSonic said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987168#Comment_3987168

    That's just shifting the blame again.

    People will always do whatever is easiest and takes the least brain-power to do. Facecamping Bubba would fall into that exact same ballpark, very easy to do, very hard to counter (if you don't just give up on the camped person entirely and immediately). Same thing with tunneling. Why learn how to create pressure and get a good sense for macro-play when you can just make the game a 3v1 from the start because the game doesn't punish you for it and have free pressure like that instead?

    Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay competitive in their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.

    That's also completely disregarding how the person being tunneled feels about it, which is another pain-point entirely. But since the overarching mentality that's been plaguing this game has been "I am not responsible for your fun" (For both sides by the way), I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.

    Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay competitive in their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.

    I’m curious… how much better are the teams supposed to get than the ones I’m already matched with? Enlighten me.

    in Tunneling Comment by oecrophy

  • Cheater? There are already people who can see the killer, their add-ons, and their perks in the lobby. Wouldn’t surprise me if you just ran into a cheater. Did the account look “clean” to you?

    in Anonymous mode Comment by oecrophy

  • @PigWithTvs said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987170#Comment_3987170

    make those basekit which will effect the lower tier killers potentially killing their playrate even more then what?

    nurse/ blight all over again for another year?

    making perks basekit is a bandaid fix, it should not have been a thing to begin it, give the killers a reason not to tunnel, not punish them and not fix the problem

    yup .. exactly this.

    Perks should never be there to fix design flaws – they’re supposed to add variation, not be mandatory to patch bad game design. Without old Borrowed Time, survivors just wouldn’t get away once camping started. No matter what. It wasn’t right that players had to bring a perk just to counter that situation.

    There are still hooks in the worst RNG spots on some of the worst survivor maps where, without solid bodyblocks, OTR, or DS, survivors just can’t get away. Map design and RNG are the real problem here—looking at you, Borgo… Coldwind… sometimes Haddonfield. What’s really needed are map reworks, not basekit stuff.

    Sure, you could just throw DS and OTR into basekit (let’s be real, people tunnel through those perks anyway—just let the tunnel run), but then survivors would actually have perk slots for other stuff. That wouldn’t be healthy.

    Nurse and Blight already dominate as it is—they’d just end up being even more common. Classic “fix” that really isn’t a fix.

    in Tunneling Comment by oecrophy

  • hey hey.. Billy was back then and honestly still is my all-time fave :D Curving is just too much fun, even if it doesn’t always make sense on certain structures. Huntress is the same for me – super fun to play. Nurse… well, Nurse is still Nurse. The strongest thing you can play, always my go-to whenever I just want some chill matches, even with all the bugs and glitches.

    But yupp, those were also the killers I started with back in the day… there just wasn’t much choice at the time. Wraith was technically my first, mostly just to learn the basic M1 gameplay. But I quickly switched to killers with abilities that felt a bit more challenging/interesting for me.

    I still really enjoy playing Spirit too. But tbh I just can’t get into most of the newer killers – guess I’m a bit stuck in nostalgia. I do play everything though (I think it’s super important to know the perspective of all killers). From the newer ones I actually like Sadako and Alien quite a lot. Pyramid Head and Pinhead (sadly weak) is also still a lot of fun.

    Bugs and glitches are still a huge problem, servers are bad, hit reg is bad – but hey, it’s not a shooter, so don’t let that ruin the fun for you. Best advice: just try out all the killers at the start (newbie lobbies make it easier) and see who really clicks with you. Most important thing: just have fun :D

    in A new players perspective. Comment by oecrophy

  • @BbQz said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987165#Comment_3987165

    Change your name to Tunnelingus because you are really spicy right now with your sensational tunneling

    I don’t tunnel. I prioritize.

    if you don’t like the direct tunnel, feel free to let your friends die first. Sharing is caring. :D

    But hey, you should probably be doing gens while stuff is happening.
    A lot of people seem to forget that part. xD

    in Tunneling Comment by oecrophy

  • If only it actually worked properly. Hope BHVR gets their ######### together. Me and my mate tried playing survivor while waiting for our killer game. Survivor round finished, lobby disappeared, and killer queue got cancelled. Since then, we just don’t risk it and wait it out instead. :/

    in Play while you wait could justify new permanent Gamemodes Comment by oecrophy

  • @lightofheven said:

    This tunneling by any killers that likes to tunnel the survivors needs to stop. Can't even pip up if the killers are doing that to the survivors. I know that the killers are trying to pip up as well but there are ways to get a 4K kill without tunneling that one survivor. It gets really annoying when the killers just tunnel that one player. I think that the should spread the love in between the survivors but that is just me.

    Having to take a chase is “pain” for you?
    But if I’m supposed to stop tunneling… what toys are you giving up on the survivor side then?
    A nice, clean tunnel, a little bit of slugging when it makes sense — I like my toys, y’know?
    I mean, I really love it when a good, clean tunnel goes brrrrr.

    Efficiency is beautiful. ✨

    …

    "spreading the love" between the remaining Survivors is still doable once the first person is out and the tunnel is done :D

    in Tunneling Comment by oecrophy

  • @TaMeiRen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986009#Comment_3986009

    I see what you’re saying and thank you for the apology. I guess I’m used to people in this community being toxic. Im trying to edit out my sassy “ deserved day” but I just can’t right now.

    Back to your second reply, I do see what you’re saying and didn’t even think about SWFs because I’m so used to playing soloq. But I do see what you’re saying and see how it can be a problem for killers going against bully squads.

    If you’re in East NA, have a good rest of your night. If not, then have fun. 🤗

    Hey hey, y w as from my side really realyl rally nothing personal, just gotta laugh a bit… because these perk synergies hit me every day and uum :D from a Killer POV it’s insane. It’s honestly what makes the SWF vs. solo-queue gap feel like a canyon.

    You hit situations in SWF that you literally never see in solo-queue. Never. Stuff like: only sketchy 50/50 filler pallets around, but whatever, they go down in it, teammate nearby, background player, flashlight, unbreakable sabotage queued up, also unbreakable on the floor… yeah, now try to grab ‘em, Killer. Or not? They just slug themselves, stand back up, don’t even burn anything yet, next mate already on the way, Soulguard active so both escape with endurance, or they got Conviction ready to swing into some bodyblocks.

    From a Killer perspective, it’s like: how do you even punish this? Everything’s covered, all the anti-Killer tools stacked. Every play I make is either preempted or outright negated. It’s peak “SWF cheese,” and it’s why solo-queue games feel like a completely different tier.

    Sure, most groups just waste way too much time and too few gens get done. But really well-coordinated SWFs are organized in a way that it still costs you a ton of time, and they keep chipping away at gens at the same time. Especially when you’re playing a weaker Killer, that’s when you really feel how brutal good coordination can be and all those "perk synergies."

    I think some perk synergies just shouldn’t be possible. Not like four people stacking them to perfection. Individual players, sure… but not 16 perk slots perfectly tuned for optimal anti-Killer synergy.

    SWFs that don’t really need anything end up running a lot of perk synergie stuff you literally never see in solo-queue… because the perks on their own are usually pretty trash.

    And with a fifth perk slot, SWFs would just be able to stack even more stuff to perfection.

    Just imagine if everyone in an SWF could take Shoulder of Burden “for free.” .. or something like that .. :D

    in 5 Perk Survivors Comment by oecrophy

  • @TaMeiRen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985128#Comment_3985128

    No need to be rude , friend. It’s an idea I wanted to share and see how other people felt.

    Have a day you deserve.

    No, no, no – no hard feelings from my side. All good. I didn’t mean to come off as rude.

    But .. BUT : honestly, the fact that strong SWFs can stack perks that, on their own, don’t do much but in combination create these crazy synergies… that’s what makes the gap between SWF and solo so unfair and massive.

    It’s especially those perk synergies that make killer gameplay (especially if you’re on a weaker killer) feel super unfair against some SWF groups. They don’t even need game sense, movement, or mechanical skill – they just rely on perk synergy. You’re basically getting insta-downs on them if you watch their miserable gameplay, but they still get away just because of their perk combos.

    I think the most unhealthy thing they could do right now is promote even more perk synergies by adding extra perk slots for it.

    in 5 Perk Survivors Comment by oecrophy

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985724#Comment_3985724

    I don't think it was unhealthy for the game. All that it did was negate aura perks the Killer brought in bursts. It had a token then charge system that could run out and at several points during its existence depending on what the Killer ran. When Lethal Pursuer first dropped, it would decimate the perk instantly. Its last iteration pre-nerf was in a good spot where players got value out of it, but it could still run out. Essentially what the nerf meant is that stealth and aura are more important for one side than the other and that's why it's inconsistent.

    I don't think the argument of it being unfair for anyone not running Distortion holds a lot of water either. You could make the same arguments for several perks in the game ranging from self-pick up perks to self-healing perks to anti-tunnel perks. The specific goal, in my opinion, was to make stealth less viable and player aura more viable for one side only. It's why Distortion was changed to encourage chase.

    From my experience and observation, Distortion has mostly been used by really selfish players who were only looking out for their “personal escape” and constantly tried to avoid the killer. No teamplay, no cover, no “ 1-2 people on dead hook,I’ll take this chase so the rest of the team is safe.” Sure, the perk itself isn’t to blame, but that’s how a lot of people played it.

    You know what I think would be cool? They should make Distortion significantly stronger—but as a team perk. Instead of protecting your own aura, it could protect someone on your team, like the person with the most hook phases, or whoever is currently the most vulnerable. I’d be totally fine with that from a killer perspective too.

    Bring the perk back—make it a team perk that protects the member of the group who needs it most.

    in Too many Aura reading perks / restore distortion Comment by oecrophy

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    I think Distortion absolutely deserves to come back. It's a consistency issue if nothing else. We already have a good amount of things in the game that negate items, perks, powers, and game mechanics. Why Distortion needed to take the fall at all makes zero sense. Especially given how common Lethal Pursuer is now that all 4 Survivors spawn together.

    @Elan said:

    I understand the frustration. You try to avoid killer by finding cover near gen, but they have Nowhere To Hide, which on a lot of killers will be death sentence as you most likely don't have much resources nearby, that's why I always count that killer has bbq or NTH. It's kinda shame that they gutted distortion. They might keep the 2 stacks instead of 3 but revert the chase requirement to tr requirement that it used to be, which will keep some picks on stealh killers still very powerfull.

    Kinda funny when you think about it… killer is literally always in a chase by design. People don’t want tunneling, but at the same time some folks want back the old distortion moments where 1–2 survivors without Distortion were guaranteed to have a miserable match. And back then, most people ran Distortion super selfish just to not get found, while the rest of the team got slaughtered. Honestly, that whole design was just super unhealthy

    in Too many Aura reading perks / restore distortion Comment by oecrophy

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985661#Comment_3985661

    Blood Favor and Crowd Control are hexes. They are niche.

    Mindbreaker indeed good on majority of killers. But Bamboozle? If u want to bring actual value from it, u need to play HillBilly or Cannibal or other killer where windows are heavy counterplay. Or being sent on specific map. In any other case this with brutal strength just mediocre perks that save u less time rather then some bbq where u can be sure u don’t need to spend whole minute in attempt of finding a chase

    yupp.. and..

    Even then, Bamboozle is super situational and often not worth it. How many structures even have strong double windows that actually counter Bamboozle? Stuff like the shack or other areas you should learn to win quickly without relying on perks like this. And especially as Billy, you can do a lot on single-window structures if you know when to charge and from which angle to curve for the hit… Bamboozle is a meme.

    what he didn’t mention is Enduring… that can be pretty fun in some situations, letting you pull off a 180° flick into the pallet and get the M1 hit as soon as the survivor vaults back :D

    in Too many Aura reading perks / restore distortion Comment by oecrophy

  • now its aura reading again? : /

    Survivors complain about aura perks but ignore the fact they still have god pallets, safe windows, and strong tiles if they play them right. Vision doesn’t down you — wasting resources does.

    kay… on Nurse, aura reading can be insanely strong and downright lethal.

    but.. Even against Nurse, where aura reads can be strong, it comes down to spacing, understanding her limits, and punishing her cooldowns. That’s how you counter.

    . Every killer sees your aura the entire game.

    and… what perk build do I slap on to get permanent wallhacks for the whole match? 👀 Please, enlighten me — name this magical build :D

    in Too many Aura reading perks / restore distortion Comment by oecrophy

  • Playing as survivor or watching videos you realize there’s so many perks that have amazing synergy.

    This is literally the part where I get to laugh out loud, right? I get to, yes? Right??

    in 5 Perk Survivors Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rizzo said:

    Could you please attach the logs?

    To find them:

    1. Press the Windows Key + R to open the "Run" command.
    2. In the text box paste the following: %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\DeadByDaylight\Saved\Logs
    3. Click "OK" - this will open your Dead by Daylight Logs folder.
      • If it does not open the Dead by Daylight Logs folder, it may mean that when installing Dead by Daylight you chose to save your files somewhere else and will need to check there.
    4. The file called "DeadByDaylight.log" is your log file

    Thank you.

    https://youtu.be/_-If12_vKZM DeadByDaylight-backup-2025.08.17-19.55.18.log DeadByDaylight-backup-2025.08.17-19.47.56.log

    clip + logs: Blink bug…

    (and please, please… I don’t wanna keep getting 300ms+ players. Can’t I get matched with people in my own region?)

    in brief description of bug: Nurse bugs with blinks and fatigue Comment by oecrophy

  • I kinda feel bad this post went under the radar…

    I haven’t played that much since the recent changes, so I’m still holding back on making a super firm statement, but ye… I honestly think lowering Alternate Movement to 4.2 was a really bad call. It just makes the whole W-shift meta even worse.

    A lot of killers basically get punished for actually learning and mastering their power, instead of just playing for the short M1 / close range in most situations. And that sucks. New changes shouldn’t push even more killers into that direction. M2 should feel rewarding (especially on abilities that can be dodged well if the survivor knows what they’re doing), not even more punishing.

    Compared to some others, I’m more of an “efficiency player” myself – I don’t always try to squeeze every flashy use out of my power (if I wanted that, I’d play Sekiro lol). So I don’t feel the difference as strongly as tes might… but it’s still really noticeable. And I totally get what people like tes are pointing out – I’ve seen the same thing and it’s honestly a shame.

    Going for shots in the open was never really worth it… and it’s still not worth it.
    And yup, I also think the move from 4.4 to 4.2 wasn’t needed at all, considering all the other changes that came with it.

    Just my pov.

    Nothing really deep or analytical since I haven’t played enough, but I just thought it was such a shame this post got buried, so I wanted to bump it again.

    Nothing really deep or analytical since I haven’t played enough, but I just thought it was kinda sad this post got buried, so I wanted to bump it again.

    in Pyramid Head changes turns out to be about nothing (personally ) Comment by oecrophy

  • @Reinami said:

    Topic

    Important topic. Saves people a lot of frustration too. Yup, 100%

    in Survivor who is slugged should be able to abandon if the killer slugs for the 4k Comment by oecrophy

  • It would be absolutely terrible, regardless of the toxicity that would come with it. This already happens often enough in Hunt, where people crank their soundboard to full volume to completely ruin the acoustics for the other player… and that community is overall much more mature. In DBD, it would be a complete disaster.

    in Ok guys, how fast would this idea end poorly? Comment by oecrophy

  • maybe

    step one: stop following an imaginary survivor rulebook you never signed up for?

    Just play however you like and however you feel you have to.

    in Killer feeling like a lose-lose Comment by oecrophy

  • @tes said:

    Solo q is completely fine until u get ultra sweaty killer or your teammates tends to play not that way as u expected.

    I like it. Personally. Cause I tend to bring team perks for solo. Doing really random stuff that can be helpful. Show teammate that it may be scourge hook and when he realised it u feel so satisfied. Trigger dms on cold gen and see how some teammate happily nods or when u bring reassurance and play for the save to do risky endgame is so nice. As soon as u play solo by wise altruism and others doing it as well this is my fav matches ever.

    It also can bring surprises. I played against p100 huntress recently, she was incredible sniper. But before realising it, I was grumbled at my teammates, thinking that they were having trouble playing against a huntress on RPD. And only towards the middle of the game, being in chase myself, I realized that it wasn't my teammates who were bad, but the player on her was so damn impressive. I doubt that playing SFW would have brought the same emotions, because from the very beginning I understood from my friend's voice that we were cooked.

    As soon as u play solo by wise altruism and others doing it as well this is my fav matches ever.

    Y, kinda same experience here. A lot depends on the time of day. Sometimes I get absolute dogwater SoloQ matches, but I love those moments when a SoloQ team just clicks.

    Especially when you throw Shoulder on a SoloQ mate or bodyblock for them in chase, covering them just right… so many players get super thankful and instantly switch into full teamplay mode. Honestly, ….the best teamplay I’ve ever had wasn’t in SWF — it was in SoloQ.

    Sure, in SWF you’re like 100x stronger. Comms and perfect coordination are insane, especially when it’s purely about escaping. But it just feels way more exciting and intense when that kind of synergy happens in SoloQ. It’s a gamble, yup, but when it pays off…

    …feels better than a 5-gen chase or another boring full team SWF escape.

    in Why do you play soloq? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Zuiphrode said:

    Never.

    +

    Y, never… I hope

    in Anti Tunnel, when? Comment by oecrophy

  • I mostly play soloQ/duoQ. SWF feels too boosted to me. I don’t hate coordination — I just hate when it turns the match into a joke.

    You say you’re playing chill… but suddenly it’s:
    “He’s behind shack.”
    “Basement’s in main.”
    “Heal me, bodyblock him, reset, let’s go do this and this gen.”
    And poof — that Ghostface ain’t scary anymore. Because 40% of killers lose their core mechanics when every move gets called out. Myers isn’t scary if he’s always seen. Just another sad man in a mask getting deleted by team GPS. Pig? Just a poor little pig getting called out non-stop. Trapper and Hag? Two more killers whose abilities get completely denied the entire match.

    Too much SWF kills the fun for me against 50–60% of the killer roster, and it even starts hurting my own macro at a certain point, because you start relying more on callouts than your own game sense. Every now and then, yeah, playing on comms with friends is fun — but it gets boring fast.

    in Why do you play soloq? Comment by oecrophy

  • after nine years of gaming I’ve seen it all in chat.
    Best thing you can do is keep a healthy emotional distance from whatever gets typed.
    At the end of the day, it says way more about the people saying it than it ever will about you.

    Or if they’re having a full-on after-chat meltdown, just hit them with a simple “gg” and leave.
    Usually triggers them the most, since that stuff is just fishing for a reaction anyway.

    in This community is unbelivable toxic Comment by oecrophy

  • or you could start out playing a bit against bots to warm up and get comfortable with your ability. Sure, bots aren’t a perfect mirror of real matches, but you can still learn a lot and build confidence with your power. Maybe you’ll even find people who enjoy running custom games here and there, and they can give you direct feedback on specific situations—like what you could’ve done better. :D That kind of stuff helps a ton too. At the end of the day, the best thing is honestly just to hit ready. Worst case, turn off chat, and after a bit of playing you’ll probably realize—it’s really not that bad.

    Just do it—I mean… seriously, ask yourself: what are you even afraid of?

    I mean, the worst thing that can happen is you run into a stronger survivor group that’s like, “lol, this guy’s new, let’s mess with him”… but that’s where your own logical thinking needs to be the stronger force. Honestly, it’s pretty telling — and kind of embarrassing — when people treat someone like that who’s clearly a new player.

    f that actually happens, be the more mature, logical, and intelligent person, and keep a healthy distance from the virtual stuff. It says way more about those people than it does about you.

    I mean, imagine you’re not the one it’s happening to, but just watching it happen to someone else.
    Wouldn’t you also say: how much weight should we really give to the behavior of people like that?

    And all the “normal” rounds… just play, try to find the killer you like, and have fun improving :D

    Nothing bad will happen to you. Just hit ready.

    in Killer Anxiety Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981123#Comment_3981123

    But on the flip side, killers often let people go, play by certain self-imposed rules, stop at two kills per game, or intentionally play “soft” with hooks. That impacts stats just as much as efficient tunneling.

    Oh!

    So you mean the actual stats are even more killer-sided?

    That just means your whole shpiel about 'needing to tunnel' is even more wrong!

    the biggest problem for me is still the not-so-great MMR system

    And I used to think that this was a big contributor, but I am starting to disbelieve that, because of -you-!

    You're not smart. The own-goal you just scored in this very post kinda proves it. You don't know how the game works. You have no macro skills. Heck, I just noticed as well that your latest calculation puts gens at 80 charges, which they haven't been since 6.1.

    You are saddled with the exact same wonky matchmaking as everyone else. The only difference is that you switch your brain off to just dumb-tunnel the first person you see.

    The average among killers (Who work with the same matchmaking as you do) is around 60% KR. High MMR is a little higher than that.

    You are at 85%.

    That is the difference dumb-tunnelling apparently makes. Over 20 percentage points.

    They could toss in basekit DS with a 10 second stun and it'll probably still not be enough to fix how wide of a chasm there apparently is between a rando tunneller and a competitive tier killer.

    I just realised I've been stupid too, since you made this point SO much earlier! You, as some dead-average, random mook, feel confident going up against a hypercompetitive team, specifically because you know that tunnelling will bridge the skill-gap. It's the bloody chess-merchant all over again!

    You don't need to be a good killer because you can just tunnel, instead.

    You've convinced me, more than ever, about the absolute, critical necessity of aggressive and invasive anti-tunnel changes.

    Phew… I find it funny that you’re already derailing the topic again with something personal like ‘you don’t like seeing me tunneling?’… (gonna get offtopic again) even though it’s a totally legit playstyle and everyone can play however they want.

    And I find it hilarious that you’re bringing up comp. I’ve played in tournaments back in the day — funny, but also not so much more (especially with the RNG factor). And I can tell you: in tournaments and comp DBD, tunneling is a huge part, even with strict perk limits on the survivor side.

    So y, whatrs ur point? I find it pretty funny you’re trying to use competitive DBD as an argument. Competitive DBD actually proves that killers have to tunnel — and that’s with strict survivor perk limits in place.

    but please, let’s not derail into all this tunnel-talk again. If you’ve got a problem with the way I play, feel free to message me privately about it

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980905#Comment_3980905

    He does…

    Therefor healing is more efficient than a DS/UB bodyblock. Everyone's doing the latter, but no one's healing? Seems unlikely, don't you think?

    But when the killer goes for fresh hooks, I see zero need.

    What, never went up against a Wraith, or a Huntress, or an Oni?

    You’re assuming survivors are bad .. the " insta-downs. "

    What difference does that make? If anything, if they're really bad, you should unga-bunga tunnel into the DS/UB bodyblock even LESS, since you need less time to secure the down on the protected target and might be able to hook them before the DS/UB user can get to safety.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981017#Comment_3981017

    Again, what are you calculating, if not some hypothetical, unattainable absolutely immaculate survivor play?

    And that's not even mentioning that this calculation is also really bad!

    walk to nearest gen: ~10s

    Except they're not all walking to the nearest gen, that maximises the co-op penalty. Survivors split up. So survivors 2, 3 and 4 all walk to the second, third and fourth closest gen.

    Except they don't do that either, because if you do four gens on one side of the map, that's a surefire way to get yourself three-genned.

    So the travel time is much longer than that.

    Repair time solo: 80s per gen → in 50s, that’s ~62.5% progress per survivor.

    Three survivors repairing in parallel: ~1.87 gens done before the killer’s first hook even lands.

    Wrong, it's zero gens done, because there is a very big distinction between three gens at 62.5% and one gen at 100%. One of the two is irreversible and denies the ability to regress the generators.

    Which is something you also fail to account for, by the way. Killers can regress generators. Most killers actually do bring perks that do so, too. Or block 'em outright. Just another factor that these 'calculations' fail to account for, because you're basically treating the match as if the hard-tunneller and the non-tunneller play the exact same way, without accounting for other options, like regression, delay tactics, and zone control.

    you can argue about whether the game should work like this, but you can’t argue that this is how it works right now.

    Except you yourself have already argued that this isn't how the game is right now:

    Yes, I said: flawless teams are unbeatable

     —

    but literally in the same breath, I also said: 

    NO ONE IS FLAWLESS.

    So what is the use of 'calculating' the efficiency of a flawless team?

    To bring the discussion back on topic from the whole “evil killer tunneling” thing: tunneling is definitely a strong, efficient strategy. safe, safe. — so I’m gonna use it. Everyone can play however they want, it’s legit, so that’s fine. Just to steer the thread back on track — the debate about whether tunneling is needed or not really drifted too far, and that one person was right. We can continue that in a private chat if you want, I’m open for it!

    Yes, tunneling has a big impact on kill rates. But on the flip side, killers often let people go, play by certain self-imposed rules, stop at two kills per game, or intentionally play “soft” with hooks. That impacts stats just as much as efficient tunneling.

    But, back to my orginal point (page 2 I think?) , the biggest problem for me is still the not-so-great MMR system (I explained the 100-100 2). Because that causes entire groups to get crushed if one player underperforms. That, for me, affects kill rates way more than whether killers use efficient tactics or play “loose.”

    Many rounds are basically decided because MMR doesn’t work right, and two people end up in a group that should never have been matched with that killer — and then get completely overwhelmed, handing out 4Ks.

    DbD isn’t what it used to be. Two survivors can’t “carry” the whole match anymore once the killer gets good. Just 1 or 2 overpowered players in a team can wreck everything. That’s why looking at stats isn’t really worth it as long as the matchmaking isn’t working properly. In my opinion, stats don’t mean much in this case — you always have to watch what actually happens inside the match while good matchmaking is missing.

    Until we get better MMR, stats just don’t say much. Just my opinion. Better MMR, better maps, and some reworks have a way bigger impact before you can make any real call about whether something is too strong or too weak.

    Because: no matter how weak the killer is, if a survivor spawns in a dead zone with good map structure nearby — and no filler pallets between you and them — that survivor will die. even if it’s a Trapper or a Hag. Instant down.

    Exactly, good hit registration and better servers. That often decides whether you get a down or not and plays a big role in those stats.

    for me those are still the main points (like I explained earlier)… it’s not that I tunnel. Proper MMR, proper hit registration, proper servers, proper maps… only then am I willing to take things like “kill rates” seriously when judging if something is too strong or too weak. Just my point of view.

    to summarize my point from page 2 again:

    In DBD, each survivor only brings 25% to the team, while the killer has full 100% control. A lot of survivor teams start off below 100% because matchmaking is off or some players mess up or play weak. That puts pressure on the ones who could bring their full 25%, forcing them into risky spots — like hook trades or covering teammates. Their own 25% that they could bring gets heavily weakened because one person in the group couldn’t bring their 25%. Suddenly, the whole team doesn’t function at full strength anymore. That’s why so many groups fall apart — they don’t consistently bring their full game. Matchmaking needs to ensure every survivor can actually bring their 25%. If the killer spots and punishes those weak points, those teams die fast and the kill rate skyrockets.

    Once the killer capitalizes on that… this team is dead. It heavily influences the kill rate. But balance decisions are being made based on these kill rates while issues like matchmaking, better maps, and proper hit registration haven’t been fixed yet? IDK.

    I think it’s tricky.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • I think the hatch is pretty outdated and actually a negative feature for the game. Especially in solo queue: fewer people actually escape through the hatch than those who, at a certain point in the match, start sabotaging the whole team because they decide to play for their personal escape instead. I’d really like to see something new for these endgame situations instead of the hatch. In my opinion, it just doesn’t belong in the game anymore.

    something new, exciting, and fair for both sides in the endgame would be great. Not this hatch coin flip that, in certain situations, just drags the match out forever… and where often nobody wants to give in because the situation ends up feeling “unfair” for both sides. (or this 2vs1 situations, with 2 remainin survs and 1 killer involved)

    in The Hatch Should Auto-Close! Comment by oecrophy

  • @Skillfulstone said:

    It's hilarious yet also sad that this thread is yet another that went from an opinion which had some potential for debate but then devolved into basically one person fighting an army by defending an idea/mindset that basically the whole playerbase is against with their life.

    And at some point, the battle overshadowed to original point of the thread.

    Y, not my fault. I wrote in detail about why I don’t think judging things based on stats alone is all that good or meaningful, and why I think it doesn’t really work in the current state of the game to just look at the numbers. But there’s always someone who pops in with the whole “everything bad in this game happens because a killer is tunneling” take, completely ignoring everything else

    to quote myself:

    . I just think it’s kinda sad that a post that’s supposed to be about stats — how accurate they are and all that — just instantly devolves into the usual “it’s the Killer’s fault” thing, led by the whole tunnel talk.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • deleted. (double post)

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980582#Comment_3980582

    In a situation where one person is hooked and the killer goes for the unhook, that unhooked survivor is usually pretty close to where the chase is happening. If they’re running Dead Hard + Unbreakable, or Conviction + Plot Twist (which is currently a better choice), and they know which way the chase is going, they can aggressively bodyblock if it makes sense.

    We're not talking about that.

    A full-health survivor, given the same competence and resources, makes for a longer chase than an injured survivor getting a single bodyblock.

    You can blab about the applicability of a body-block all you want, it doesn't address the claim put before you.

    Does a healthy survivor get an extra sprint burst that they DON'T get from a bodyblock, yes or no?

    No Team Eternal. Just duo queue with my friend and me. Normal chill evenin lobby. Totally not warmed up and really trying (2-3 short rounds before he has to go to work)... from his POV, where the recording starts, my mate already been tunneled once. At that moment, he’s just getting a Shoulder of Burden unhook from the cute random fengedi.

    The killer made the mistake of patrolling too long and didn’t deny the heal after the unhook—didn’t tunnel right away. So he let a heal go through... watch the HUD. We were super inefficient on the gens, our Claudette barely did anything this round (hello bold totems sometimes). I was busy with cover now and then, also not really efficient. We played really badly and really slowly. Max too. He went down once totally unnecessarily. Just removed. You know, those “short rounds before work.”

    y sorry nemi, let this unhook happen with a free reset was to costy for u.

    Sure, this Nemesis made mistakes—as we all do. No one played perfectly. And y, we were super, super slow. Just W-shift and drop early if it’s getting hot. I’m the main, he got confused by me once near the end, which was costly. But then maybe he could’ve gotten a kill (I would have been there to block, with my Flashbang ready if needed). So what else could Nemesis really have done?

    You're changing the subject.

    Why is that calculation there, oecrophy?

    You do realize people use those perks aggressively against you, even in the moments when you’re not tunneling, right?

    And that'll help you win if you don't unga-bunga tunnel into it.

    Nah, doubt it. It is what it is

    Exactly. You had no intention of seeking out a middle ground.

    You were in an 'I don't care' mode from the very start.

    idk. let’s strip the emotions out of it and just look at the raw math when both sides play efficiently.

    killer’s First contact annd first Hook

    Map cross to find first survivor: ~10s

    First chase: ~30s (normal survivor, average tiles)

    Carry + hook animation: ~10s

    Total until first hook: ~50 seconds

    survivors in that same 50 seconds

    walk to nearest gen: ~10s

    Repair time solo: 80s per gen → in 50s, that’s ~62.5% progress per survivor.

    Three survivors repairing in parallel: ~1.87 gens done before the killer’s first hook even lands.

    if the killer doesn`t tunnel:

    1. Killer leaves hook to find a “fresh” survivor → ~8s travel
    2. Second chase: ~30s
    3. Second hook: ~10s carry/hook animation

    While this happens:

    First hooked survivor gets rescued ~10s after you leave → healed/reset in ~16s.

    Two survivors not in chase are instantly back on gens → +1 gen done during your second chase.

    By your second hook, 3 gens are done, survivors are splitting on the last two.

    End result: You’re in a hook race — 4 survivors, 3 gens, and no one dead. If they keep playing clean, you lose.

    if the killer tmnel instead:

    Deny the reset immediately after unhook.

    chase takes ~10–15s to down again (no health state to burn).

    Carry + hook: ~10s.

    Survivor is in death state at ~80–90s total match time.

    it works cuz:

    Now there are only 3 survivors to pressure.

    Gen speed drops instantly.

    Survivors are forced into risky plays — bodyblocks, unsafe rescues, heals in bad spots.

    Map control becomes easier and snowball potential skyrockets.

    the math:

    If both sides play optimally:

    • No tunnel: You’re trading hooks for gens until it’s 4 survivors vs 1 killer with 1–2 gens left.
    • Tunnel: You remove a survivor fast, break their efficiency, and actually have a chance to win.


    you can argue about whether the game should work like this, but you can’t argue that this is how it works right now.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @ratcoffee said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980932#Comment_3980932

    And I'm saying it's not average, it's clear that there's a skill imbalance and the Nemesis was outclassed

    Y he was talkin about "Not the top" .. so y. he talked about "the normal matches.." and idk, that was just 1 for me. (we were sooo super slow and chll @ surv side) but y.. Missplays on the killer side vs missplays on the survivor side + a super slow game… I mean, he has 500 hours, I have 10,000+. It’s hard for me to imagine what kind of lobbies he’s thinking of when he always talks about excluding the “top percent.” What lobbys else is he talkin about? I already told him about rounds where both sides make few to no mistakes. I don’t know.

    (But I’m just trying to put myself in his shoes when he talks about it.) The best thing would be if he shared his POVs from his matches, but he doesn’t want to do that. so y. idk.

    edit: And I always find it hard to buy into this whole “top percent” argument he makes. For me, that “top percent” doesn’t really exist… (its not hard to reach this point if you want to) Also “Team Eternal” he keeps bringing up (I’m EU, I’ve had people from that group in my lobbies before multiple times, i mean… idk.. ). But DBD isn’t rocket science. At some point, you’ve seen it all. Then it just becomes an arms race on both sides — who brings the strongest stuff and who puts the most pressure.

    But I’m trying to get into his head and see things from his erspective. Like, I’m really trying.

    I mean, once he talks about “average teammates,” it should be allowed for the killer to mess up things too… not just survivors: yes, killers: nah.

    Normal smart play in this situation: deny the reset immediately and get the quick down — that’s the pressure you need right there. Not running all over the map checkinglgens or chasing a fresh hook first while still having all 4 people up, because of Firellius "dont tunnel" rule.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @ratcoffee said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980582#Comment_3980582

    This video does not show the game is unwinnable for killer without tunneling, in general. It shows that this one particular Nemesis player is not very good in chase, judging by the fact that he took 2 minutes to down you even after you gave a free health state at the window within a few seconds of chase starting, and I counted several places where he very easily could have gotten a tentacle hit if he didn't blatantly misplay.

    y..

    I tried to find a typical average evening lobby experience—basically what most matches look like for the majority.

    Nemi made mistakes. So did we. He asked about the "average hours" and wanted to exclude the "top percent" (which he always starts by leaving out). So I tried to find something I’d call "super average" (super slow gens + average mistakes on both sides) — no idea, most of my rounds are usually a sweaty mess on both sid.es anyway. But i tried to find 1 that’s basically how I picture a normal average round, since he suddenly wants to exclude the others.

    I’ve already shared other POVs where I showed clearly: you can’t win without tunneling. But he just kind of brushed them off like they don’t matter.

    The’s talking about average lobbies and average experience. Okay, fine. Here’s a super average match for you.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980582#Comment_3980582

    In a situation where one person is hooked and the killer goes for the unhook, that unhooked survivor is usually pretty close to where the chase is happening. If they’re running Dead Hard + Unbreakable, or Conviction + Plot Twist (which is currently a better choice), and they know which way the chase is going, they can aggressively bodyblock if it makes sense.

    We're not talking about that.

    A full-health survivor, given the same competence and resources, makes for a longer chase than an injured survivor getting a single bodyblock.

    You can blab about the applicability of a body-block all you want, it doesn't address the claim put before you.

    Does a healthy survivor get an extra sprint burst that they DON'T get from a bodyblock, yes or no?

    No Team Eternal. Just duo queue with my friend and me. Normal chill evenin lobby. Totally not warmed up and really trying (2-3 short rounds before he has to go to work)... from his POV, where the recording starts, my mate already been tunneled once. At that moment, he’s just getting a Shoulder of Burden unhook from the cute random fengedi.

    The killer made the mistake of patrolling too long and didn’t deny the heal after the unhook—didn’t tunnel right away. So he let a heal go through... watch the HUD. We were super inefficient on the gens, our Claudette barely did anything this round (hello bold totems sometimes). I was busy with cover now and then, also not really efficient. We played really badly and really slowly. Max too. He went down once totally unnecessarily. Just removed. You know, those “short rounds before work.”

    y sorry nemi, let this unhook happen with a free reset was to costy for u.

    Sure, this Nemesis made mistakes—as we all do. No one played perfectly. And y, we were super, super slow. Just W-shift and drop early if it’s getting hot. I’m the main, he got confused by me once near the end, which was costly. But then maybe he could’ve gotten a kill (I would have been there to block, with my Flashbang ready if needed). So what else could Nemesis really have done?

    You're changing the subject.

    Why is that calculation there, oecrophy?

    You do realize people use those perks aggressively against you, even in the moments when you’re not tunneling, right?

    And that'll help you win if you don't unga-bunga tunnel into it.

    Nah, doubt it. It is what it is

    Exactly. You had no intention of seeking out a middle ground.

    You were in an 'I don't care' mode from the very start.

    He does… but as long as I’m not on the death hook, I usually don’t care that much against most killers (situationally I want the heal, depending on the situation and the killer). But generally, I have enough game sense to notice when the killer switches and leaves the gen, so I don’t need that “hit- boost” to get a good setup.

    Sure, if the killer is applying pressure and wants to take someone out of the game, then I want the heal. That’s when I move. I don’t give my teammates away for free. (You can see that in the Nemesis round—I’m there for Max exactly when it gets “tight,” especially when he’s on the death hook. I was there)

    But when the killer goes for fresh hooks, I see zero need. I usually have enough game sense to avoid an insta-down, even when injured, and I know when to run and in which direction, so I have something to work with.

    Of course, you can play differently. Everyone can play how they want. And a “super nice playin killer” will be happy about the less pressure coming from your survivor group then, safe safe.

    And that'll help you win if you don't unga-bunga tunnel into it.

    You’re assuming survivors are bad .. the " insta-downs. " That’s just another gamble — a dice roll. What about the survivors who don’t give you that and actually know what they’re doing?

    Exactly. You had no intention of seeking out a middle ground.

    You were in an 'I don't care' mode from the very start.

    I’ve suggested plenty of things survivors could take on the flip side. Stuff that mostly only SWF would feel, while casuals and new players wouldn’t even notice. A lot.
    But you all just wanna keep your toys, and I’m the only one who’s supposed to give up mine.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980574#Comment_3980574

    It’s not that hard to answer.

    None of what you then type is an answer. If gen rushing is too strong, the survivors coming for you have given up pressure.

    Your setup also doesn't make sense. You have three survivors in the area, not all of them can be a tunnel target and very few people who aren't trolling in end game chat consider it tunneling if you are pursuing another target and then a target with more hooks comes in for a save and gets targeted.

    Basically, they pick the option that buys the most time overall.

    Great, which is the game. Heal, pressure gens, protect teammates, etc. survivors always have to weigh various factors in making a decision on what to do. It is usually, and should be, the same for killers.

    That's the game and its a good game.

    One of the best arguments against tunneling is that it takes all of those elements out. Find a target, eliminate them as quickly as you can. It's silly for how complex most of the game is there is a massively powerful strategy in the game that cuts through all of that.

    I think it’s really a shame that any post about stats and how they affect the whole game always has to turn into a “tunnel talk.” It’s just what you have to do. I do what I have to do — whether some survivors like it or not.

    So y. First person I see? You’re the one. I’m not half-committing, I’m committing.

    I could play it different, but that’s a gamble — banking on survivors being inefficient, making mistakes, or just being bad.

    I’m not gonna gamble on this group just being bad/ineffizent so I can “win differently.” I’m not here for a dice roll. I’m here for a clean match. Pressure from start to finish.

    that’s the game.

    in a PvP game, you can’t blame the other side for playing to win as well.

    Great, which is the game. Heal, pressure gens, protect teammates, etc. survivors always have to weigh various factors in making a decision on what to do. It is usually, and should be, the same for killers.

    That's the game and its a good game.

    One of the best arguments against tunneling is that it takes all of those elements out. Find a target, eliminate them as quickly as you can. It's silly for how complex most of the game is there is a massively powerful strategy in the game that cuts through all of that.

    Yep. You’ve got an important point there. It’s the survivors who set the pace of the match and how much “extra” they do—not the killer. The killer just adapts. And survivors dictate insane speed as long as they have the breathing room. As long as you’re just hunting one fresh hook.

    It’s only when tunneling starts that the real pressure kicks in—that’s where your point comes in: good teamwork, body blocks, flashy plays, heals, resets, other creative plays. Until then, most survivor groups just apply maximum pressure themselves. Even injured, they keep working on gens, sometimes committing to one gen as long as there are hook phases left—etc.

    Which is fine, that’s the game. All the “more interactive” stuff you mentioned only comes into play once things get tight for one survivor on the team.

    If the killer isn’t applying pressure, it just turns into a boring “gen rush and out” scenario.

    or as survivors, you deliberately slow down and look for more interaction. But that’s a gamble for the killer again. And I don’t want to have a dice roll deciding the outcome.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • You're not paying attention.

    It's the logical conclusion from you claiming that healing is inefficient.

    In both cases, the reward is the same: The chased survivor gets extra distance. Except in the case of a heal, it doesn't require the involvement of a second survivor for an extended period of time, and it gives the on-hit sprint, which adds a lot more distance.

    Given the same competence and resources, the healthy survivor will give you a longer chase than an injured survivor getting a bodyblock from a teammate. And if said bodyblock is indeed a DS/UB one, the bodyblock costs the survivors far more time, since the bodyblocker has to get into the chase and then pick themselves back up once they go down. AND it costs two perk slots, while healing costs zero.

    If healing is inefficient, the DS/UB bodyblock is even more so.

    In a situation where one person is hooked and the killer goes for the unhook, that unhooked survivor is usually pretty close to where the chase is happening. If they’re running Dead Hard + Unbreakable, or Conviction + Plot Twist (which is currently a better choice), and they know which way the chase is going, they can aggressively bodyblock if it makes sense.

    What happens next? The killer has a few options: try to go around to avoid hitting the bodyblocking survivor, hit and down the unhooker (which is harder), or just accept the block.

    If the blocker goes down, the survivor still in the chase gains a lot of distance and saves their health state. Now the killer has to decide whether to pick up the bodyblocker—who just effectively saved the chase—or slug them. It’s a lose-lose situation.

    If the killer picks up the bodyblocker, Dead Hard triggers. If they slug and keep chasing the survivor far away, that survivor can trigger Unbreakable—or even get a fast rescue from a teammate. And all this happens simply because the killer didn’t tunnel immediately.

    Then you will not prove that the game is unwinnable without these tactics.

    Take your pick.

    Except you were insistent that your arguments are NOT based on the perfect teams, or even the team Eternals! This is a full-on return to your motte-and-bailey: Make the outrageous claim that the average match is unwinnable without tunnelling, and then when asked to support that claim, you swap out the average team for an impossibly immaculate survivor team!

    Need I remind you that the entire baseline argument you came up with is that we can't have anti-tunnel, anti-camp and anti-slug because it would make matches against average teams unwinnable?

    So what is this 'calculation' doing here, when it cannot brook even the slightest bit of inefficiency, to the point where there's not a single heal, not a single step out of place, not a moment of hesitation?

    This level of 'efficiency' doesn't exist. You've admitted as much yourself. So why is this 'calculation' here?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOghIm7R4Mo

    (Picked this match because we played super, super inefficiently and badly — plus the biggest mistake this guy made was letting the recovery heal happen and NOT tunneling right away.)

    No Team Eternal. Just duo queue with my friend and me. Normal chill evenin lobby. Totally not warmed up and really trying (2-3 short rounds before he has to go to work)... from his POV, where the recording starts, my mate already been tunneled once. At that moment, he’s just getting a Shoulder of Burden unhook from the cute random fengedi.

    The killer made the mistake of patrolling too long and didn’t deny the heal after the unhook—didn’t tunnel right away. So he let a heal go through... watch the HUD. We were super inefficient on the gens, our Claudette barely did anything this round (hello bold totems sometimes). I was busy with cover now and then, also not really efficient. We played really badly and really slowly. Max too. He went down once totally unnecessarily. Just removed. You know, those “short rounds before work.”

    y sorry nemi, let this unhook happen with a free reset was to costy for u.

    Sure, this Nemesis made mistakes—as we all do. No one played perfectly. And y, we were super, super slow. Just W-shift and drop early if it’s getting hot. I’m the main, he got confused by me once near the end, which was costly. But then maybe he could’ve gotten a kill (I would have been there to block, with my Flashbang ready if needed). So what else could Nemesis really have done?

    Or, alternatively, you could not tunnel, and avoid all the countermeasures!

    This complaint is basically 'anti-tunnel makes tunnelling slower'. Which is the exact point of anti-tunnel measures.

    You do realize people use those perks aggressively against you, even in the moments when you’re not tunneling, right?

    I ask you again: Is there anything I could've said that would've changed your mind on this?

    idk.

    Buddy, I've seen complaints about No Mither and Invocation: Weaving Spiders. Whether you can deal with it or not is not a requirement for something to be complained about. The reality is that most forum killers just aren't focused on these armed-to-the-teeth 4-man swiffers with rampant unhook denial, they just want to stomp lowbies harder. Which is why the focus is always on gen speeds, rather than the things that set these high skill teams apart from the rest

    Those kinda accusations just put me straight into “whatever - i dont care” mode real quick. That whole “us vs. them” vibe is stuck way too deep. What’s even the point in trying if .. whatever i say.. or do.. i´m the bad killer that only wants to stomp on scrubs? Like, y, guess I’m always the bad guy who just wants to crush noobs…

    on on this way:

    No Mither and Invocation: Weaving Spiders are my final boss

    Is there anything I could've said that would've put your conclusion out of your head?

    Nah, doubt it. It is what it is

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980508#Comment_3980508

    This is getting kind of rambly so I'll do my best to focus it:

    That situation was completely uncounterable for me no matter what I did.

    Two big points here

    1: With @Firellius you're talking about how important it is for survivors to always do gens. Even healing is a waste, just do gens.

    Well these survivors aren't doing gens. 2 of them have got off gens to try and get the save. So are these good survivors for getting a save, or bad survivors for not prioritizing gens?

    We're getting into Kettle Logic.

    2: A situation is not the game. It would be like a survivor complaining about not having counterplay because they are in a deadzone. How did they get to the deadzone, what has the killer given up to get there, was there a chase to the deadzone, how long?

    The survivors have given up pressuring gens to pressure you (a good element of the game) so they've risked quite a bit to challenge this.

    So to get to this point a lot of things could have happened. One of the survivors setting up for the rescue could have been seen getting you a free hit, the survivor could have gone down in a position where it was impossible to save, wasting their time, or in trying to ensure that he didn't go down somewhere the survivor could have given up other opportunities to potentially extend the loop.

    Then if they set up, you have a couple of options. Being they are close you can shift pressure. You can target the conviction survivor when he gets back up, or if you think he has soul guard, you can see his entire build is based around this and target the rescuers. You can also try and bait in the rescue.

    This is on top of the opportunity costs the survivors have had to expend, they could be doing a lot of different things with their builds. There's likely quite a few other possibilities as well.

    Or you could have Lightborn. It is far from the only option you have in the situation, but when looking at the overall game balance of the situation it is something that needs to be considered.

    i mean.. what do you even do in these situations? Do you just let everything happen to you?

    I was playing a Legion match during the anniversary where a SWF (2 certainly, 3 probably), was doing the Vigil + SB into pallet saves with the invitations. It took me too long to realize this and I got severely beat. It happens, but it would be weird to focus on just that game instead the others I played before it where I won.

    I play to win, but feel its too easy too frequently as killer if I'm just using all available options, and I loathe an early 1v3. Lots of options in the game, more on the killer side but some on the survivor, feel like playing a game with a handicap which takes all of the merit out of winning.

    Does that “Yup, one or two kills are fine” mindset kick in?

    Fine is a bad word. Improvement, sure. I understand its a silly framework to take into a game with 4 other people to expect 4k or bust as a reasonable path forward. Which actually gets back to the original topic of the thread, if the 'middle' outcomes were more frequent, and 4ks/4es were rare accomplishments, it would be a better game.

    I'd compare it to the board game Diplomacy but this post has already gotten way too long.

    1: With @Firellius you're talking about how important it is for survivors to always do gens. Even healing is a waste, just do gens.

    Well these survivors aren't doing gens. 2 of them have got off gens to try and get the save. So are these good survivors for getting a save, or bad survivors for not prioritizing gens?

    We're getting into Kettle Logic.

    It’s not that hard to answer. The person on the hook — the one you’re not tunneling because “tunneling is bad,” right? — was just in a chase before. They know the map, they know the stronger structures, and they roughly know the direction the fresh hook chase is going. They can judge if it’s worth it timing-wise to cover the chase or if that would just lead to a quick down in a dead zone.

    Basically, they pick the option that buys the most time overall.

    If that player can get a DS or block from shack into jungle gym into main window and hold the killer for longer, then blocking is better than going straight to a gen.

    If they can still do decent without blocking, then gen pressure is the better choice.

    And if the player is gonna go down anyway, don´t block for sure, otherwise the killer gets 2 fast insta downs and double pressure.

    In the end, the choice that buys the most time for the team is usually the right one (with risk assessment depending on the killer, of course, especially regarding snowball potential).

    Ye, sometimes it’s worthusing DS or whatever in the next chase to block and force the killer’s "goodies" on them, sometimes not—it really depends on how long the chase lasts with or without.

    2: A situation is not the game. It would be like a survivor complaining about not having counterplay because they are in a deadzone. How did they get to the deadzone, what has the killer given up to get there, was there a chase to the deadzone, how long?

    The survivors have given up pressuring gens to pressure you (a good element of the game) so they've risked quite a bit to challenge this.

    So to get to this point a lot of things could have happened. One of the survivors setting up for the rescue could have been seen getting you a free hit, the survivor could have gone down in a position where it was impossible to save, wasting their time, or in trying to ensure that he didn't go down somewhere the survivor could have given up other opportunities to potentially extend the loop.

    Then if they set up, you have a couple of options. Being they are close you can shift pressure. You can target the conviction survivor when he gets back up, or if you think he has soul guard, you can see his entire build is based around this and target the rescuers. You can also try and bait in the rescue.

    This is on top of the opportunity costs the survivors have had to expend, they could be doing a lot of different things with their builds. There's likely quite a few other possibilities as well.

    Or you could have Lightborn. It is far from the only option you have in the situation, but when looking at the overall game balance of the situation it is something that needs to be considered.

    i mean.. what do you even do in these situations? Do you just let everything happen to you?

    I was playing a Legion match during the anniversary where a SWF (2 certainly, 3 probably), was doing the Vigil + SB into pallet saves with the invitations. It took me too long to realize this and I got severely beat. It happens, but it would be weird to focus on just that game instead the others I played before it where I won.

    I play to win, but feel its too easy too frequently as killer if I'm just using all available options, and I loathe an early 1v3. Lots of options in the game, more on the killer side but some on the survivor, feel like playing a game with a handicap which takes all of the merit out of winning.

    A rescue is either coming with a near-mid timer or traded just before the phase shift. If it’s a critical hook in a critical zone (which isn’t as big a time investment as you might think), there’ll definitely be two people for sure. And if I focus on the rescuers… then what? Do I chase the rescuer down?

    Well… then what? I end up with a fresh hook… maybe even another fresh hook… and right after that, it’s “tut tut, exit gates.” Fresh hooks aren’t what you need. They don’t bring you anything. Fresh hooks put almost no pressure on the team.

    This sounds like hoping for the best and praying survivors suck or are inefficient. Hope they’re not good, y’know? Yup, that’s often how people win—because there are a lot of bad survivors out there. But this ain’t a damn luck game — I don’t want a dice roll. I don’t like gambling on "please let this team be bad.

    in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy
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