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oecrophy

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  • I’m not a fan of gen slowdown.

    Most pressure comes from downs/hooks.

    Who gets those fast? Top killers.

    Who needs slowdown the least? Top killers.

    Who needs it the most? Struggling M1s.

    Who gets the least value from it? Struggling M1s—because slowdown is easiest to cash in only in casual lobbies.

    Where do you chain down → down → regress on repeat? Casual/bad lobbies

    .Where do you not need slowdown? Casual/bad lobbies.

    Where is it hardest to get value (because players are good)? High-level lobbies.

    Where do you need it the most? High-level lobbies.

    Same with stuff like Deadlock or Dead Man’s Switch: good players just rotate—tap a gen 20m away or touch a throwaway gen to dump DMS there.

    Meanwhile casuals stand 30–50 seconds next to a blocked gen, emoting/t-bagging, doing nothing.Result: Gen-block/slowdown stomps casuals and does almost nothing vs good teams. Super bad design

    .Slowdown rewards the matches that don’t need help and underdelivers where you actually do.

    in Let's talk about gen slowdown... Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rulebreaker said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001730#Comment_4001730

    First its "different game mode" similar to say chaos shuffle modifier. The core mechanics have no limits on any perks, items, etc while your affecting what each player can do with some of the list. You even have something that affects core mechanics (specifically in one half aka making them alot more different from each other) in your list which is "rubberbanding light (casual-only)". If one half has this mechanic and the other doesn't what do you call that?

    1. First is that if your able to swap how does that solve keeping super sweating out of the other que? Second if theres only limited cosmetics in one side (in this case "ranked") wouldnt everyone just go to that que to get said cosmetic (in this case every "casual" who wants that fancy cosmetic would go to "ranked")?
    2. Again that makes it a "game mode". One side having more drastic alters makes it effectively a different mode instead of a "casual" que. There'd still be meta spikes, just different directions as humans tend to try and optimize. A "casual" mode should have all the bells and whistles as you'd find in a ranked game just without any of the "stakes" involved.
    3. What we're seeing is your version of "casual" is to just limit…well a lot in how people can play.
    4. If offered a choice we're willing to bet good BP that theres going to be a decent amount of takers in the "competitive" player group as since they'd use anything they can to win, if this was thrown in then they wouldn't mind. Sure some wouldn't want it but we're not willing to bet that a majority wouldn't want it. Extreme stomp tools are not set in stone. For example, durring lights out people would play things like doc or gf to get a edge. They could easily nullify the disadvantage both sides had.
    5. …So why would reduced bp and outta wack mmr stop people jumping into "causal" to warm up? Quite frankly we'd expect competitives to hop into a casual match to warm up for their ranked ones (aka the ones that actually mater to them). In fact you'd also send more casuals to ranked if the bps were better there…which would anger the comp people, drive away players, maybe both if we're going the doom route…kinda lost on how this is suppose to work.
    6. Well, chat is currently toggleable sooo…grats you got it?
    7. See now your adding on. We'd assume (based on us so we maybe wrong here) that many casuals like to be able to make funny combinations. As we said your just sorta making "casual" into "restricted mode" and not necessarily just a "chill" DbD (thats probably not the best word but basically "not super sweat enough to make the other side miserable").
    8. So first we'll ask what a "god-chain loop" is to you as while theres a good amount of chains on certain maps, none are what we'd describe as a "god-chain loop". Our standards for those come from 2017 and not really many we can think of that exist off the top of our head.
    9. "no progress, no stats/chat prestige, meta caps = low incentive." is fair but there becomes the problem of people like we Rulebreakers who will end up having low incentive to go to "casual" cause of the carrots being offered in ranked and the limits put on casual. You'll have what we have now in the ranked que instead of the casual. We'd find it kinda funny but it probably wouldn't be a good thing.

    It’s DBD with different parameters — like events/mutators.

    …mate…do ya see what we see here? What is chaos shuffle? What is Lights out? What was the freaking anniversary event? Dbd with "mutators". Meaning "game mode" yea? Your effectively calling it a different game mode here and not even seeing it.

    Casual trims meta spikes/prestige pressure and adds soft guards against hard abuse;

    And we cant cut down hard abuse on both ends because of why? We are genuinely curious about this answer.

    uwhm..

    just a quick upfront note: I don’t call it a “second game,” but two queues with the same core rules and different friction/incentives. Win condition, chase physics, perks, and add-ons stay the same—only the surrounding parameters are set differently.

    and..

    1) “Isn’t that just another mode (Chaos Shuffle / Mutators)?”
    No. Shuffle/Lights-Out tweak the core (random builds, heavy vision/info cuts). My proposal is a preset: light LoS (line-of-sight) blockers, a perk/item budget, fewer meta stacks—tuning knobs BHVR already adjusts regularly. Ranked = everything goes. Casual = sandbox with guardrails.
    And yes, casuals can jump into Ranked anytime—but then they accept DBD without limitations: faster gen speed with no counter-buffer, “bully squad” loadouts, hard slugging, proxy camping, and tunneling—in short, all the one-sided spikes casuals specifically don’t want.

    2)I think we’re talking past each other. A mode, to me, would be Shuffle/Mutators—that changes the core (random builds, heavy info/vision cuts). I’m talking about a preset: same rules, same powers, same perks/add-ons—just caps/guardrails on the extreme combos and light LoS tweaks. Call it a “Restricted Queue” if you want. It’s not a different game mode; it’s the same sandbox with bumpers.

    Yes, people will always optimize. The goal isn’t “no meta,” but smaller amplitudes: fewer 2-hook snowballs, fewer 2:30 gen rushes. DBD stays DBD—just with fewer high rolls in Casual. If you want full expression (bully loads, proxy, tunnel, everything goes), you can always play Ranked.

    “Casual = all the features, zero stakes” sounds nice, but in practice it’s a warm-up magnet for sweats: same tools, zero risk. That’s why you need a combo of incentives and guardrails: in Casual, fewer BP/no pips/no public stats, small anti-camp/anti-tunnel helpers (which BHVR is testing anyway). Plus a season lock/limited swaps → Casual stops being useful as a warm-up farm.

    If it’s about wording—fine. I care about the outcome: Casual should feel like DBD, just without the one-sided spikes; Ranked remains the stage for “anything goes.” Run a BHVR A/B test over it (stomp rate, match length, quit rate). If it works, keep it. If it doesn’t, scrap it.

    3.) Casual allows creative builds, but under a budget/whitelist. Meaning: fun experiments yes, meta stacks no. Ranked stays uncapped for maximum expression.

    Why this actually means more variety: with dampers against one-sided stomps (early snowball, info/gen high-rolls) and small buffers on both sides, off-meta perks become more playable. Not “no meta,” but smaller amplitudes → more viable paths, fewer “hard-lose/hard-win” high-rolls.

    The only hard limit in Casual: a full meta stack. Solution: a loadout check that transparently sends you to Ranked if you’re exactly running that … like:

    Your current loadout matches the Ranked parameters.
    Switch to Ranked?

    Note: Switching = season lock until the end of the season (1 planned switch back with cooldown).
    [Switch to Ranked] [Cancel & adjust loadout]

    This way Casual stays the sandbox with bumpers (creative, laid-back, fewer stomps), and Ranked remains the stage for “anything goes” — including full meta, bully loads, etc.

    4.) “Comps will warm up in Casual anyway.”
    Make Casual intentionally bad for warm-ups: season-lock (1–2 swaps max + cooldown), reduced BP, no visible grade/MMR/prestige in Casual. The carrot lives in Ranked (cosmetics/stats/prestige). If you want to sweat, you go there. Also add SBMM buckets in both queues so migrations don’t wreck match quality.

    Or you could also give people titles that can only be earned in Ranked. The highest titles are only available if you complete the entire season (or the month) without a queue swap—purely cosmetic but clearly visible (lobby/end screen).

    and yup: some people will always min-max and try to sweat in casual—you won’t stop that 100%. that’s exactly why you ship it as a bundle: season-lock + split SBMM + no public clout, and most importantly the casual-side bumpers against one-sided stomps. those bumpers basically steal the cherry off the cake for sweats—their little edges get blunted, bully stacks hit a loadout gate, early snowball gets dampened. so sure, they can try, but it’s worse reps, less payoff, more friction. if you wanna sweat, go Ranked; Casual stays the chill playground.

    5.)Not “less BP” alone — the bundle kills warm-ups in Casual. Casual becomes unsexy for sweating and imprecise for practice.

    • season-lock: 1–2 swaps max + cooldown. quick warm-up? meh.
    • no clout: no public grade/MMR/prestige, fewer BP → nothing to flex.
    • SBMM split: separate MMR per queue → comps don’t farm newbies.
    • loadout gate: full meta? prompt: “move to Ranked” or tone the loadout down.
    • light guardrails: small anti-camp/tunnel/snowball dampeners in Casual; core stays the same.
    • BP fine-tuning: base BP equal; Ranked gets a small streak/title bonus → pulls sweats there, not everyone.
    • mode lock: being locked to one mode for the season (with limited exceptions) already stops warm-up hopping.

    6.) who’s “you” here? the chat toggle was just a side idea to make casual a bit softer — not core to the proposal. the core is still the two-queue + bumpers bundle.

    7.) I’m not “adding on” — the bundle is the proposal. Same DbD core (win con, powers, perks/add-ons). Casual is the same sandbox with bumpers, not a new mode.

    “Funny combos” aren’t dead; they’re protected. You can still meme and experiment under a budget/whitelist. What gets checked is only the full meta stacks (e.g., multiple slowdowns/info-aura megastacks) that turn lobbies into stomps or full “bully squad” loadouts. With no caps, optimization compresses the meta; with light caps, off-meta stays viable and actually shows up in matches.

    It’s “chill,” not “restricted”: soft anti-tunnel, a small hook pause in proxy-camp radius, Kindred-light, and toned-down versions of the PTB’s anti-tunnel/anti-slug ideas. Hard abuse loses value; punishing misplays stays legit. If you want full expression (bully loads, uncapped stacks, max stakes), Ranked is right there. Casual just trims the spike edges so people can try stuff without ruining someone else’s night.

    (What the right dial is, you figure out by testing — just like the last PTB. Those were tweaks they tried to cut casual-player frustration from like tunneling/slugging.)

    And beyond that: those bumpers and anti-snowball dampeners that kick in when a side starts tipping cut the frustration and open up way more space in Casual for perk variety, off-meta picks, and real meme builds.

    8.) when I say “god-chain loops,” I mean those strong structures that can still spawn and, in good hands, buy a ton of time (MacMillan sometimes spits great survivor RNG, Autoheaven too, etc.). I know how to run and chain them; a typical casual killer usually doesn’t (zoning, denying fast vaults, whatever). and I’m not a casual player — as killer I know how to end chases fast; casual killers often don’t. on the flip side, casual survivors rarely squeeze max value from good RNG — they panic and don’t connect loops cleanly.

    that’s why Casual benefits from more, smaller/softer loops and more LoS blockers: survivors get play without perfect chaining, killers aren’t forced to deal with giga-RNG chains. both sides can just play how they play, no homework, and still have a good time. that’s the whole “Casual mode” idea.

    end of the day, this is a mode for people who just want to hop in and play — no perfecting, no homework — the same folks who vent about slugging/tunneling, “killer too OP,” or “genrush.” and yeah, for killers who don’t want to learn specific structures, some loops are basically hard to crack. Casual trims the spike edges so you can just queue up and have fun. Without learning.

    wouldn’t be my mode. but that’s the point: opt-in. let the “chill game” crowd queue into a lane with bumpers, and keep Ranked clean for skill/expression/sweat. different intents, different lanes. fewer stomps, fewer salt posts, clearer expectations. nobody’s taking anything from anyone: if you wanna grind and improve, go Ranked; if you just wanna vibe after work, go Casual.

    9.) totally fair take — but tbh that’s the point. if you’re a rulebreaker who plays for carrots/clout/full expression, you belong in ranked. casual is the chill lane with bumpers; it’s supposed to be low-incentive for more competitive players. casual is for folks who just want to hop in — killers who don’t know (or don’t want to learn) every tile/structure and ability line, and survivors who don’t want to study tunnel/slug counters, aura-perk interactions, or the whole perk/counter web. no perfecting tiles, no map min-max — just queue up and play.

    10.) call it a “game mode” if you want — I don’t care about the label. it’s the same DbD core, just a parameter preset (caps, light LoS, incentives). events like Chaos Shuffle/Lights Out change the core temporarily for everyone; this would be a permanent lane with the same rules, just lower amplitude.

    “why not cut hard abuse in both queues?”
    because you need an uncapped pressure valve. ranked stays free so comp/tryhard players hang out there (carrots/clout), the SBMM/practice signal stays clean, devs get balance data from full-expression builds — and “warm up in casual” isn’t worth it.

    casual gets soft guardrails (anti-tunnel/slug light, small hook pause in proxy radius, Kindred-light, loadout budgets). that trims meta spikes & prestige pressure so low-intent matches don’t become stomp coinflips. the early bumpers kick in when one side starts to run away and blunt abuse by themselves. think bubble-wrap armor: lets people play poorly without instantly imploding and shields against quick one-sided stomps — abuse loses bite.

    this isn’t an auto-win or hand-holding, more like shock absorbers: a tiny gen throttle, a brief unhook mini-haste, a bit of info via Kindred-light (or something else) — just enough so Doc/Ghosty edges or early snowball don’t flip the whole match. you can still punish misplays; the “press once and it’s over” stuff is just rarer. result: fewer coinflip lobbies, more room for off-meta and messing around — and if you want full freedom, you’re in ranked anyway.

    and . .. because the snowball triggers are capped/blunted: no full slowdown/info stacks, and when proxy/tunnel/slug shows up the bumpers kick in (mini-haste, small hook pause, a bit of Kindred info) — the edge evaporates fast. plus mode-lock = no newbie farming, no lobby cherry-picking. so.. "abusing" just isn’t worth it anymore.

    if it’s just the name, fine: call it “restricted queue.” outcome matters: fewer stomps, fewer rage-quits, clearer expectations. run an A/B: if stomp/quit rates drop and match length stabilizes → keep it; if not → bin it.

    ..

    Sure—just rough ideas that’d need polish. But there are plenty of ways to make a casual mode unappealing to “all-in” players like me and give people who just want a quick, low-stress match their own lobbies.

    in Ranked mode? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Alicia_Tried6041 said:

    Survivor perks gets nerfed to the ground while killers get buff after buff. Map sizes get smaller and smaller. You do the math if they favor killers.

    “Survivor perks all nerfed, killers only buffed!”
    Oh… wait. Pop? Nerf. Pain Res? Nerf. Eruption? Nerf. Call of Brine? Nerf. Overcharge/CoB? Nerf. Dead Man’s? Nerf. Deadlock? Nerf. Corrupt? Nerf. Grim Embrace? Nerf.
    I mean… wait… those aren’t even survivor perks.

    – Pop Goes the Weasel (nerf)
    – Pain Resonance (nerf)
    – Eruption (nerf)
    – Call of Brine (nerf)
    – Overcharge + CoB (nerf)
    – Dead Man’s Switch (nerf)
    – Deadlock (nerf)
    – Corrupt Intervention (nerf)
    – Grim Embrace (nerf)

    Checkout: 9 nerfs. Would you like the receipt?

    And on smaller maps: I actually like them on survivor side.

    • Faster rotations for pallet saves and bodyblocks
    • Quicker safe unhooks/trades and heals/resets
    • Easier flashlight/and gen defense on calls
    • Less marathon 3-gen walk-ups; info → action is immediate

    Sure, killers patrol faster — but survivors get way more punish windows. It’s not a one-way buff.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rulebreaker said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001480#Comment_4001480

    • Thats defiantly going to cause ques to spike as depending on what "ranked" offers most are going to flock to one or the other.
    • As above, offer the carrot to one side more are going to flock that way just for the carrot and basically turn it into the mode we currently have.
    • Then it basically is just a different type of game mode as we previously said: "Just a que with different rule sets."
    • Same as above except replace "rule sets" with map.
    • Personal thoughts on needing more stealth aside, you dont think that someone on the competitive side would want things like that? Also people would just bring more aura reading.
    • More than willing to bet that alot of the "competitive midset" would want every buff they can get for their side. Also this doesn't really affect skill expression, just time in trial.
    • We believe your sentence is cut and we also don't know what exactly you mean by "no both side grind".
    • Why?
    • Thats gonna ruffle feathers, but aside from that why would there be a chat in "ranked" then? We don't care either way but why have it in one but not the other?
    • Back to bullet 3.
    • Ignoring how the killer would still be able to stack, how would this make the "casual" mode better for casuals? You realize that the tunneling is a problem currently and these help, even if only a little, against it. "Causal" killers who tunnel have free reign and now theres less to help survivors with it. It also loops to bullet 3.
    • …we're going to go with a "no it wont". Especially since it would apparently have less looping. Less looping means once a survior is found their going to be easy to catch.
    • Really doutful that its a dealbreaker for a majority of comp minded because again, it does not come at the expense of skill expression. Its a balance discussion? Don't actually know what the proper word is but [Skill expression: the demonstration of one's acquired abilities, often seen in creative endeavors or in video games as the ability to use complex skills to make a noticeable impact.] Would say it demonstrates your skill by being able to handily win through it.

    Basically you'd be making a who separate game mode in general with this. Its a completely different thing then and that shouldn't be the point of a "ranked" and "casual" que. Some differences wouldn't matter but these are enough that we would call it.

    Quick summary up front: This isn’t a “second game,” it’s the same core mechanics with different incentives and a few soft limits in casual. If you want to sweat, you’ll go ranked; if you want to chill, you’ll see fewer stomps. Queues can stay stable with a season-lock plus mild rewards.

    1. “Queues will spike because of the carrot”
      Yes, incentives move players. Hence: season-lock (1–2 swaps with cooldown), cosmetics/small BP bonuses in ranked (no power gap), wide SBMM buckets in casual. Result: less migration, both queues stay populated.
    2. “Just a queue with different rules = what we have now”
      Exactly: same core, different friction. Casual removes meta spikes and prestige pressure; ranked leaves everything open. That’s the whole point of two queues without inventing a new game.
    3. “Stealth? Comp wants that too — they’ll just bring more aura reading”
      In casual you can cap/whitelist aura spam and add light LoS cuts/blockers so rotation/sneak has value again. In ranked, min-max is unrestricted. Two audiences, two frictions.
    4. “Comp wants every buff — skill expression stays untouched”
      Skill expression = chases, reads, macro. No rubberbanding. Casual only trims extreme stomp tools (meta stacks, slug/tunnel/proxy value) and prestige motivation. If you want max expression, go ranked.
    5. “‘no both side grind’ is unclear”
      Meaning: in casual there’s no hard MMR/grade/ and reduced BP — for both roles. No grind incentive, no “warm-up farming.”
    6. “Why chat in one mode?”
      Optional lever. (only a idea) .. Idea: casual without post-game chat/stat wall (less toxic/prestige), ranked with (review/accountability). Could be symmetric if preferred; it’s a toggle, not dogma.
    7. “Killer can still stack — doesn’t help casuals / tunneling stays”
      Not in casual: perk cap (e.g., max 2 per player + team budget), low-tier add-ons/items only, max 1 slowdown. Plus soft anti-tunnel, hook-pause in facecamp radius, and Kindred-light. And the anti-tunnel-anti slug stuff from the ptb in any rworked form for the casual modus. Hard abuse loses value; punishing misplays remains legit.
    8. “Fewer loops = easy downs”
      It’s not fewer loops; it’s fewer god-chain loops. Total count stays; distribution/LoS is fairer. More wshift-panic run value, fewer endless chains. Casuals don’t squeeze optimal value out of the OP spawns anyway.
    9. “Not a dealbreaker for a comp mindset”
      For many it is: no progress, no stats/chat prestige, meta caps = low incentive. That’s how groups self-sort without force: Comp → Ranked, Chill → Casual. — especially with anti-tunnel measures and fewer strong/-chain loops in casual.
    10. “That’s a totally different mode”
      No. It’s DBD with different parameters — like events/mutators. If you want “pure,” that’s ranked; casual is the de-spiked sandbox

    Casual trims meta spikes/prestige pressure and adds soft guards against hard abuse; ranked keeps full freedom/rewards. No skill nerf, no second game — just clear friction for two playstyles so both queues work better.

    in Ranked mode? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001507#Comment_4001507

    You’re flipping it: the killer isn’t making a mistake

    Except you're also arguing that this isn't actually a one-size-fits-all argument and also you're missing the point.

    With the suggested PTB changes, tunnelling could indeed become a costly mistake, but apparently it's not a problem to make that mistake free.

    So why is it a problem when 'survivor mistakes' are free, but not when killer mistakes are free?

    Tunneling and slugging are part of playing into efficient, strong teams — legitimate, often-used tools. But if your pressure comes only from tunneling, you lose. You also need off-tunnel pressure.

    That's a real bunch of words to walk back from your initial claim that

    If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    I don't care about your essay on killer 'strategy' when your prior arguments have been both 'you can't win without it' AND 'you can't win with it'. What you're writing up here is a complete departure from your earlier argument. Which, again, feels like a disingenuous swerve.

     That gives the tunneled survivor huge reps to learn: resources/tiles, pathing, how to counter powers/perks.

    Except it doesn't, because getting tunnelled is fundamentally different from a fresh chase, and that still leaves three others in the lurch.

    Stealth is fine if you enjoy it. But BHVR shifted the incentives (more intel perks, fewer counters).

    Yep, they did.

    And when they tried to do that with tunnelling, outrage.

    Against good killers, stealth is a tool, not a gameplan.

    Except it's neither of those anymore because it got ripped out. There's so much intel going around that stealth is fundamentally a lost cause. It's no longer a tool because you're lighting up like a christmas tree every three seconds.

    When BHVR cut pallet counts, they pretty much had to clamp down on stealth too. Today it’s more important than ever that everyone contributes to the team objective.

    That was absolutely -not- the reason for their anti-stealth march. And the lynchpin in that is the Distortion nerf. Keep in mind that any stealth-focused player can still avoid the killer by simply sitting in a locker for most of the game, in which case, they indeed do not contribute.

    Distortion specifically permits stealthy players to still benefit their team, and that is what got removed.

    Stealth itself got kicked out the game because killers didn't like it.

    So, again, why does 'the correct play' matter when BHVR can also opt to remove it from the game?

    Except you're also arguing that this isn't actually a one-size-fits-all argument and also you're missing the point.

    With the suggested PTB changes, tunnelling could indeed become a costly mistake, but apparently it's not a problem to make that mistake free.

    So why is it a problem when 'survivor mistakes' are free, but not when killer mistakes are free?

    Because tunneling isn’t a mistake — it’s a reactive tool for killers, just like good bodyblocks aren’t a mistake for survivors. Both can be used poorly and backfire, but that’s not a fundamental error; it’s a situational misplay.

    I don't care about your essay on killer 'strategy' when your prior arguments have been both 'you can't win without it' AND 'you can't win with it'. What you're writing up here is a complete departure from your earlier argument. Which, again, feels like a disingenuous swerve.

    In the games where you “win without tunneling,” you often win because the option to tunnel is always on the table. At high MMR, good survivors assume you will hard tunnel if it’s worth it, so they change their macro:

    No heals under hook, they do off-path resets → time loss.

    Chases away from key gens into zones where tunneling is unprofitable → they’ll even take a faster down as the price for a good zone.

    From those zones, saves take longer paths → more time for the killer.

    Less gen-greed in critical areas → they won’t go down between two key gens, they “give” earlier.

    All of this happens because the killer can hard tunnel if the spot is good (and in high MMR that’s normal). Survivors must play smart to make tunneling unattractive — and that slows the match heavily in the killer’s favor, i.e., the time gain you need.

    Tunneling isn’t an “always do it” plan; it’s a pressure tool whose credible threat already reshapes survivor macro. Necessary as an option, weak as a sole gameplan.

    and most groups completely neglect their macro gameplay, stayed until the last second in important zones, play super aggressive on their side, push their objective until the last second and give downs in key areas, -> play at a crazy speed, and neglect their macro entirely. against these groups then the hard tunnel and a fast 3v1 is the way to go. you take back the speed you need. teams that on the other hand play to counter the tunnel, already slow down the round by themselves.

    trade macro for speed and the game answers with tunneling; respect macro and you remove its incentive.

    The credible threat of hard tunneling changes how people play; under that shadow, you’ll win games without ever using it.

    Most of the time, though, you still need the option—players love going hyper-aggressive and turbo-pace, and tunneling punishes those overextensions.

    Except it doesn't, because getting tunnelled is fundamentally different from a fresh chase, and that still leaves three others in the lurch.

    One health state down when the chase starts — plus a ton of perks that only come online post-unhook/while injured.
    The rest is just DBD/asym nature. The other three will have less direct interaction by default; if they want more, they can force it — crash the hook, bodyblock, trade, cover/ sabo/flash. The option’s there — lots of squads do exactly that.

    Except it's neither of those anymore because it got ripped out. There's so much intel going around that stealth is fundamentally a lost cause. It's no longer a tool because you're lighting up like a christmas tree every three seconds.

    My experience was the opposite: Most survivors didn’t like the old Distortion. Hook phases are resources — if the killer plays into them, it’s a resource that everyone gets found — otherwise tons of key gens were lost because the killer only ever spotted the people sitting there, never the Distortion users.
    And no, it’s not a “teamplay boost.” It’s more like: “I hate tunneling… so I’ll make sure the killer only ever sees the same teammate while I stay invisible.” 😂

    Here’s the kicker: people defend Distortion as “good design,” which ends up meaning the killer finds the 1–2 without Distortion — and then they complain about tunneling. That’s Schrödinger’s perk: both “anti-tunnel” and “please tunnel the others.” Omega paradox, omega funny.

    Schrödinger’s morality: rail against tunneling while defending the perks that trigger it — so killers (esp. low/mid MMR) who wouldn’t tunnel end up doing it anyway.

    It’s paradoxical: stealth + Distortion make even non-tunneling killers tunnel hard — especially in MMR where tunneling isn’t even needed. If you hide all game, where should killer get pressure before wasting time searching? From the hook. From the tunnel. Kinda funny to be anti-tunnel on one hand and pro-stealth on the other—pick a lane.

    I mean. .. Anti-tunnel in mind, Distortion in the loadout: result — “please tunnel the others.” Distortion go brrr.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001454#Comment_4001454

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging = pressure & adaptation on the killer side — not a survivor mistake. But a tunnel that actually matters usually comes after survivor-side errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, no gens up yet — that’s what makes the tunnel worth it.

    Ooh, that's an interesting point to try to make in conjunction with

    Mistakes become free.

    Because when a nerf is introduced to tunnelling to actually enforce this argument of yours, you balked at that, too. Apparently killer mistakes should stay free.

    those are the levers that matter. If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    That's even more interesting considering the mutually exclusive point that tunnelling is the ONLY way to win against efficient teams.

    Now, apparently, against efficient teams, it is the incorrect play!

    At this point, it is just plain lying. Tunnelling being at once the only way to win and a ticket to a loss against the same survivor team is just showing how disingenuous this argumentation is. Legit, the quality and value of tunnelling is just whatever you need it to be for the argument at hand.

    Want to make tunnelling into a survivor error? Just claim that it's bad against efficient teams. Want to make sure tunnelling does not get nerfed? Insist that it's the only way to win against efficient teams.

    You can't have both. Any attempts to do so are just plain disingenuous.

    Killers still tend to win there, but not to the “5k BP and back to lobby” degree — there’s actual room to learn.

    I'm not talking about getting stomped. I'm talking about getting tunnelled, camped and slugged out.

    The “correct play” is exactly what the game and its maps are built around: take and hold chases while your team gets gens done—and the killer’s job is to stop that. That’s the game. The game design is around this.

    Ah, but then that is restricted to only what -you- want it to be. Because changes to what the game is 'built around' are rejected when it's not in favour of your personal view of what the game should be. Which makes an appeal to 'the correct play' a self-fulfilling prophecy. Essentially, 'I'm right because I'm right'.

    Take 'Take and hold chases' for example. I actually really enjoy stealth play, and in cases, that was certainly the correct play too. But that didn't matter when BHVR decided to release a cascade of intel perks and stripped away protections from said intel perks.

    So why would 'the correct play' matter now?

    If you deliberately play differently—chest/meme builds, over-aggressive plays that feed the killer, or ultra-passive styles that abandon the team objective—you’re opting out of the core concept. Totally fine, but don’t expect consistent wins. That choice comes with trade-offs.

    Absolutely not what anyone is talking about, stop obfuscating.

    Because when a nerf is introduced to tunnelling to actually enforce this argument of yours, you balked at that, too. Apparently killer mistakes should stay free.

    You’re flipping it: the killer isn’t making a mistake — he’s reacting smart to survivor misplays. If you forbid the killer from applying pressure in those windows (tunnel/slug/camp in that context), survivor mistakes become free.

    A “tunnel that matters” usually comes after survivor errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, 0 gens up. That’s what makes tunneling lucrative — the killer isn’t failing; the survivors are. And that’s exactly what I reject: blanket nerfs that devalue punishing misplays. That kills skill expression and shifts the opportunity cost: survivors get to make mistakes and skate by because the killer is punished for correct play.

    On top of that, versus strong squads/SWFs, the killer role needs tunneling and slugging as tools — survivors are using all of theirs. You can’t strip that out just to make lower-MMR casual lobbies happy.

    That's even more interesting considering the mutually exclusive point that tunnelling is the ONLY way to win against efficient teams.

    Now, apparently, against efficient teams, it is the incorrect play!

    At this point, it is just plain lying. Tunnelling being at once the only way to win and a ticket to a loss against the same survivor team is just showing how disingenuous this argumentation is. Legit, the quality and value of tunnelling is just whatever you need it to be for the argument at hand.

    Want to make tunnelling into a survivor error? Just claim that it's bad against efficient teams. Want to make sure tunnelling does not get nerfed? Insist that it's the only way to win against efficient teams.

    You can't have both. Any attempts to do so are just plain disingenuous.

    Tunneling and slugging are part of playing into efficient, strong teams — legitimate, often-used tools. But if your pressure comes only from tunneling, you lose. You also need off-tunnel pressure.

    Situational judgment: do I start the tunnel now, or not?
    If tunneling gets broadly nerfed, every strong squad will know and play around it. A tunnel alone doesn’t win a match — without off-tunnel pressure (macro, tempo, map/gen control) you sink. You have to keep all of that before the unhook so you can even start a profitable tunnel. Strong teams can counter by forcing a good zone for them and a bad zone for you, making the tunnel inefficient. That takes a lot of survivor macro, is sometimes costly, and they’ll often trade for a faster down to secure a zone where tunneling isn’t worth it. If you introduce blanket anti-tunnel, that whole trade-off disappears — the cost survivors currently pay goes away.

    Strong teams force zones — zones where a tunnel often isn’t worth it, and proxy-camping isn’t worth it either.
    Often it’s a quick down as an investment: better to take an early (cheap) down if it makes the tunnel unprofitable and keeps team tempo.
    Add blanket “anti-tunnel,” and you remove the cost/benefit exchange: survivors no longer have to pay to secure that zone; macro decisions become risk-free.

    I'm not talking about getting stomped. I'm talking about getting tunnelled, camped and slugged out.

    Once a newbie drops into baby lobbies, they’ll verse bad killers. A bad killer tunneling will often still win there — because those lobbies don’t use time well, they’re basically gen-allergic and ignore objectives. But a bad tunneling killer is still bad: the tunneled player doesn’t insta-down; they get chase time. And if a killer tunnels in new-player lobbies, that killer is usually really, REALLY bad and will make a ton of mistakes. That gives the tunneled survivor huge reps to learn: resources/tiles, pathing, how to counter powers/perks. That’s literally how you learn the game.

    Ah, but then that is restricted to only what -you- want it to be. Because changes to what the game is 'built around' are rejected when it's not in favour of your personal view of what the game should be. Which makes an appeal to 'the correct play' a self-fulfilling prophecy. Essentially, 'I'm right because I'm right'.

    Take 'Take and hold chases' for example. I actually really enjoy stealth play, and in cases, that was certainly the correct play too. But that didn't matter when BHVR decided to release a cascade of intel perks and stripped away protections from said intel perks.

    So why would 'the correct play' matter now?

    Stealth is fine if you enjoy it. But BHVR shifted the incentives (more intel perks, fewer counters).

    Core issue with stealth: it eats the most valuable survivor resource — time. While you’re hiding, there’s usually no pressure: no gens,resources burned, no map progress.
    Against good killers, stealth is a tool, not a gameplan. Use it to reset, rotate, or for endgame — but don’t expect wins. Without gen tempo and macro pressure, you lose the map and the team dies.

    When BHVR cut pallet counts, they pretty much had to clamp down on stealth too. Today it’s more important than ever that everyone contributes to the team objective. DBD isn’t like it used to be: the resource budget doesn’t let one or two players spend long stretches stealthing and still win. Back then 1–2 could carry; now it takes the whole team.


    So sure, play stealth if that’s your thing — just don’t expect to beat a good killer with it.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rulebreaker said:

    A problem with that is the ranked mode ones would be using any "casual" que as their own personal stomping grounds. This would be what we have now (win at all costs sweats, toxic players who just want to make others miserable, random casuals who want to play, newbies all mixed in) aka the "casual" que and a 99% full sweat mode aka the "ranked" que. Nothing would stop people from running full meta sweat vs "casuals" and adding limits to the "casual" que…doesnt really make it "casual" then does it? Just a que with different rule sets. All the while the player base would be split and que times extended on both ends.

    It wouldn't really help much overall.

    you can build “casual mode” so that people like me (all-in, like tunnel/camp) won’t touch it—while casuals still have fun.

    • season-lock: pick your mode at season start (casual or ranked) and stick with it. no “quick warm-up, stomp casuals.” max 1–2 swaps with a cooldown, done.
    • ranked gets the carrot: small extra rewards at rank X (cosmetics/BP/title). if you wanna sweat, go there.
    • dial casual down: curb the meta, soft anti-tunnel/anti-camp, a bit of anti-3-gen. fewer perks/add-ons/items = less sweat value. goal: chill, not esports.
    • maps, casual-flavored: fewer god-chain loops, more line-of-sight cuts. SWF loop value drops; casuals who don’t squeeze every tile barely notice.
    • more stealth love: a bit more sight blockers, slightly shorter scratch marks, slightly quieter grunts (casual-only). more rotation/sneak, less endless looping.
    • rubberbanding light (casual-only): killer rolls too early → mini haste after unhook. survivors rush too early → short gen throttle. once per match, small, predictable. (for folks who like skill expression, this mode becomes super uninteresting—the moment you’re ahead and in the stronger position, the game dials you down to make it “fairer” for both sides).
    • no both side grind in casual: you don´t have to play both roles. ranked:
    • 20/80 over the season window: By season end, at least 20% of your ranked games must be on your off-role (Killer ↔ Survivor). No “right now” requirement—just spread across the season.
    • maybe no post game chat in casual → zero prestige for stomping.
    • Perk limitations: you can’t stack four aggro, killer-punish perks per survivor—let alone sixteen in a 4-stack SWF. Makes the mode unattractive for "bully" SWFs.
    • With extra stealth, more line-of-sight blockers, and soft anti-tunnel/anti-slug, casual becomes unattractive for killers aiming to control hard and punish every surv misplay.

    alone : “Rubberbanding light” that slows the dominating side is a dealbreaker for comp-oriented survivors and killers: it may look more “balanced”/“fair,” but it comes at the expense of skill expression because weaker players get artificially propped up — for a comp mindset, that’s simply unsatisfying.

    casual gets more relaxed & fair, but maximally unsexy for sweats. me? wouldn’t go there. i’d stay ranked—that’s the whole point.

    in Ranked mode? Comment by oecrophy

  • @BbQz said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000861#Comment_4000861

    The guy who said this immediately got 4k'd vs a good nurse with a 96% kill rate.

    Pretty sure my Nurse KR would stay about the same without aura perks — if anything, it’d go up if I swapped to full anti-gen/snowball perks. Nurse is nurse.

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001368#Comment_4001368

    Mistakes become free.

    You'd have a point if the things being addressed weren't 100% enforceable by killers. Getting tunnelled is not a survivor mistake. Getting camped is not a survivor mistake. Getting slugged is not a survivor mistake.

    Unsafe save? Whatever. On-path heal? Sure. Stack mid? Why not.

    It's disingenuous to use these as examples, because these haven't been touched. The only one you can argue is unsafe saves, but again, that's because killers could forcibly remove the option for an actual safe rescue. So long as that possibility is on the table, you can't call unsafe rescues 'survivor mistakes'.

    Then comes the counter-steer: anti-gen, anti-heal, anti-fun → low-variance meta. M1 killers disappear, Nurse/Blight stick around. gg. fun for everyone? OR ? :(

    This is both ignoring that, if these players were so obsessed with winning, they would already be playing top tiers only, and that there's more than enough room for compensatory buffs -IF- spike tactics are addressed and prove to dunk killrates too much.

    Newbies get frosting instead of fundamentals. You get matchmade up because the padding works. Protection drops → brick wall. Feels like “game unfair,” not “I’m missing basics” → quit.

    Newbies currently don't get the basics because they get bonjoured out of matches with 5K BP. And it's not like any of the proposed changes take away any need for fundamentals, either.

    Balance around correct play.

    Or change the definition of correct play. If the 'correct play' is also the most cookie cutter, boring slop imaginable, it's not gonna help the game to balance more tightly towards that.

    Technically, if we're balancing towards 'correct play', we have to take hard tunnelling as the balance standard, which would mean crippling nerfs to killers or heavy buffs to survivors. And something tells me that'd piss off killers even more.

    You'd have a point if the things being addressed weren't 100% enforceable by killers. Getting tunnelled is not a survivor mistake. Getting camped is not a survivor mistake. Getting slugged is not a survivor mistake.

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging = pressure & adaptation on the killer side — not a survivor mistake. But a tunnel that actually matters usually comes after survivor-side errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, no gens up yet — that’s what makes the tunnel worth it.
    Bodyblocks, forcing a pallet down with two healthy on-site, denied pickups = coordinated survivor teamplay — legit on its own and doesn’t require killer mistakes. But this tools are there without killer mistakes.
    I mean. it’s a 4v1. Tools vs. tools. Adapt > blame. All of these are legitimate playstyles.

    It's disingenuous to use these as examples, because these haven't been touched. The only one you can argue is unsafe saves, but again, that's because killers could forcibly remove the option for an actual safe rescue. So long as that possibility is on the table, you can't call unsafe rescues 'survivor mistakes'.

    those are the levers that matter. If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    This is both ignoring that, if these players were so obsessed with winning, they would already be playing top tiers only, and that there's more than enough room for compensatory buffs -IF- spike tactics are addressed and prove to dunk killrates too much.

    Yup. If I q into real strong squads consistently, my kill rate drops — which is fine: more skill expression on both sides instead of RNG stat-padding.
    Right now tons of games get tossed because randoms with no movement/cam control/gamesense drag the team — and they’re the loudest in afterchat/forums.
    We need a fgood working mmr, then we finally get honest stats instead of MM RNG.

    (and you finally get consistent teammates who can keep up with the killer you’re up against — the best trade-off at this point)

    Newbies currently don't get the basics because they get bonjoured out of matches with 5K BP. And it's not like any of the proposed changes take away any need for fundamentals, either.

    a few matches? Sure. They often start around mid-MMR (smurf protection), then their true MMR settles. After that they fall into super-new-player lobbies with equally inexperienced killers. Killers still tend to win there, but not to the “5k BP and back to lobby” degree — there’s actual room to learn.

    And dying fast in your first games isn’t the end of the world. if you new you want to learn the game, not "i want to win/escape directly" Nobody expects a day-one escape, and : they usually won’t even be the first chase. New players play more cautiously, while mid-MMR has plenty of aggro survivors who take the early chase instead. .. so they do get learning space.

    Or change the definition of correct play. If the 'correct play' is also the most cookie cutter, boring slop imaginable, it's not gonna help the game to balance more tightly towards that.

    Technically, if we're balancing towards 'correct play', we have to take hard tunnelling as the balance standard, which would mean crippling nerfs to killers or heavy buffs to survivors. And something tells me that'd piss off killers even more.

    The “correct play” is exactly what the game and its maps are built around: take and hold chases while your team gets gens done—and the killer’s job is to stop that. That’s the game. The game design is around this.

    If you deliberately play differently—chest/meme builds, over-aggressive plays that feed the killer, or ultra-passive styles that abandon the team objective—you’re opting out of the core concept. Totally fine, but don’t expect consistent wins. That choice comes with trade-offs.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @cogsturning said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001010#Comment_4001010

    I think this highlights exactly the impasse the devs need to navigate at this time: who is this game for, the chills or the sweats? They can either continue to cater to those with 80%+ KRs and the few teams who can maybe go against them, or they can cater to average players who aren't going to get a doctorate in map layout, pathing, and perks. The people who just want a few fun matches with friends after work, or those have turned this into a personality-defining lifestyle. There doesn't seem to be room for both with the current matchmaking structure and mechanics.

    If you balance for casual mistakes, you kill the top end. The long timers won’t change their playstyle — they leave. SBMM then drags the next tier of "chill" killers up, now THEY face the same SWFs, get steamrolled, tilt, quit.

    Killers down → survivor queues up → SBMM widens buckets → even more mismatch. In the end, casuals eat it.

    Mistakes become free. Unsafe save? Whatever. On-path heal? Sure. Stack mid? Why not. You don’t learn → you get thrown into harder lobbies → first real check = brick wall.

    Solo “helpers” double-buff SWFs. The squads that are already strong get turbo. The gap grows, not shrinks.

    Then comes the counter-steer: anti-gen, anti-heal, anti-fun → low-variance meta. M1 killers disappear, Nurse/Blight stick around. gg. fun for everyone? OR ? :(

    Fewer killers ⇒ longer queues. SBMM widens buckets, coinflip lobbies (0k/4k), more tilt. Everyone loses.

    Newbies get frosting instead of fundamentals. You get matchmade up because the padding works. Protection drops → brick wall. Feels like “game unfair,” not “I’m missing basics” → quit.

    What i think we actually really really need (without nuking the ceiling):

    • Balance around correct play.
    • Fix SBMM
    • Onboarding & solo info: better bots, mini-tutorials, in-match pings/better HUD

    idk… maybe short-sighted from me, but I’d even be fine with a 5th perk for soloQ-only (the moment u q soloq) — locked to info/coord stuff (Kindred, Visionary, Deja Vu-lite; no gen speed) — just a small buff for solos/casuals that doesn’t touch the ceiling. I might be missing something, sure, but I’d have absolutely zero problem with it.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @littlehoot said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000843#Comment_4000843

    Look, I'm a surivor main who is against the 60% kill rate on a fundamental level, but my dude…I play video games to take a break from having to code my PhD data, I'm not doing all that just to 'improve' as a player.

    That’s why we need better MMR that actually separates player pools. I’m totally fine with strong, experienced killers sitting at 80%+ KR right now—I see why people die. It’s usually not that the killer is “too strong for that situation,” it’s that the survivor team makes clear mistakes. And that’s fine: if someone has thousands of hours on one side, of course they beat typical casuals. That’s a fair outcome.

    On survivor you accept it’s asym. You don’t solo-control the match; you need your team. If I’m good enough for the killer in front of me but 1–2 teammates can’t keep up, it’s also fair that the team dies. I don’t get the escape entitlement. I can still have fun in matches where I know from minute one we’re doomed because the lobby is outmatched. I still can have fun and good chases. That’s just the nature of asym games.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000815#Comment_4000815

    I don't know that I'd say Survivor is the power role, but where I'm willing to concede is that the the strongest nerf to Survivor overall is matchmaking. I would go as far as to wager that SWFs favor far less from comms than they do avoiding pubs. With the right synergy and skill level, you very well can negate a lot of the worst aspects of the game. Not completely, but enough to where the game is both engaging and not an instant steamroll. It's why you can strike gold even in solo.

    But matchmaking causes the game to be so random that those sorts of trials are rare. Without proper tools to give each individual Survivor a certain level of autonomy, the game is in a place to where they deal with incredibly frustrating gameplay with increasingly diminished returns. And at that point something has to give.

    I agree. Matchmaking isn’t “random”—it pulls from broad buckets and stitches lobbies together. There are almost always 1–2 players who don’t belong in that trial. That mismatch gives the killer free value. It’s why so many games are won even in good/very good/high MMR: the lobby often includes people who clearly shouldn’t be there.

    That’s how I see MMR—based on my experience, when it actually works (which it often doesn’t).

    Brand New Players (Baby MMR) — Heavily Killer-sided

    Survivors lack game knowledge; killers dominate easily. (SWF or not doesn’t matter.)

    • Tunneling: Deletes a player instantly; zero counterplay awareness. Panic unhooks + bodyblocks feed downs.
    • Slug/Proxy: Total slaughter even from inexperienced killers; survivors don’t split or reset wrong.

    Somewhat Experienced — Still Killer-sided

    Survivors start to understand basics but lack coordination and loop knowledge. (SWF often prolongs the match, but usually doesn’t change the outcome.)

    • Tunneling: Usually still a massacre/EZ win. Early tunnel at 5–4 gens forces trades → dead by midgame, even if the killer is inexperienced.
    • Slug/Proxy: Works consistently; teams stack at hook and hand you doubles.

    Moderately Skilled — Map/Perk decided

    Both sides can win; killers can dominate with strong perks or favorable maps. (SWF = small edge.)

    • Tunneling: Strong line, especially with info/anti-gen/anti-heal; mistimed tunnels waste tempo.
    • Counterplay: anti TUNNEL perks, bodyblocks, safe unhooks, reset paths appear; escorts/bodyblocks peel target to strong tiles.
    • Slug/Proxy: Still effective at spawn/2-hook clusters; weaker if survivors spread and pre-run.
    • Tunneling: Usually EZ win. Early tunnel at 5–4 gens forces trades → dead by midgame.

    Good Players — Slightly Survivor-sided

    Survivors use teamwork and efficient loops. A single lost 50/50 can still snowball into killer pressure; tunnel/slug/camp can secure wins. (SWF = major edge.)

    Why they usually lose the resource/time race

    • Opener misplayed: Bad spawn spread → early down near a gen. Team spends HP/bodyblocks to deny first hook, but pays in time + states. Killer gets huge value → tempo lead.
    • Gen economy poor: Instead of a 1 chase / 1–1–1 split, two sit on the same safe gen, create 3-gen clusters, or trade 25–30s running for 5% progress → free regress, no map pressure.
    • Heal vs. tempo misweighted: Double-heals on-path (or right after an unsafe/under-hook save) burn 30–40s and hand the killer a second chance. Better: off-path reset, heal only if it creates distance, otherwise pre-run.
    • Unhook macro scuffed: Unsafe saves with no escort line, no pre-run from the unhooked → 2-for-1 trades. anti TUNNEL perks/BT gets used for greed/aggro instead of buying distance.
    • Pallet economy: Strong pallets dropped too early (or greeding 50/50 fillers) → later you lack anchors. Killer trades a hit for center position → wins long-term tempo.
    • Info discipline missing: No quick signals (who’s on which gen, who escorts whom, where to rotate) → colliding rotations, one quadrant, zero spread.
    • Weak proxy answer: Into proxy, they stay too close instead of pre-running to next tile/off-angle gen → grab/corner/re-down.
    • Tunnel mitigation sloppy: No anti tunnel chain prepped; bodyblocks burn strong tiles around key gens and create dead zones → midgame fight worse.

    • Killer: Still the most reliable line if opener gives you a hook near the triangle. work trough anti TUNNEL perks, cut escort lines, proxy only for guaranteed trades, slug if needed. If the chain starts burning clock, swap before you lose map control.
    • Survivor: they don´t expect the tunnel, but if it happens they are know their job, ppl are ready to laser focus gens or are ready to bodyblock. (bad cover can give the killer huuge value)
    • Hard tunneling still wins the games most of the time.

    Very Good Players — Survivor-sided (SWF = huge edge)

    Most killers win only off survivor mistakes; coordination and knowledge carry.

    • Opener botched: Spread fine, but early greed on first hook → dumb 2-for-1 near key gens; killer insta gets value, grabs tempo.
    • Gen split off: Stack mid or break the wrong 3-gen → little progress, free regress.
    • Heal vs. tempo: Staying injured too long or double-healing on-path = 30–40s gone. Better: off-path reset or pre-run.
    • Shaky unhook: Looks “ok,” but no escort line / unhooked doesn’t run ahead → 2-for-1 instead of distance.
    • Pallet mistakes: Drop strongs too early inside the triangle or greed a 50/50 → hit + center position for killer; anchors gone later.
    • Comms ≠ roles: Lots of talk, no roles: two escort, nobody anchors a side gen → rotations collide, spread collapses.
    • Weak proxy answer: Try to brute-force through proxy instead of pulling aggro and pre-running → grab/re-down.
    • Tunnel setup sloppy: anti tunnel perks chain mistimed, (players uses this perks for distance, not for trolling/ego) bodyblocks out of order; escort drags chase through the triangle and burns anchor tiles

    At high level, one bad call (position/trade/route) hands the killer position + regress. One minute of messy macro deletes minutes of perfect chases/good survivor value.

    • Tunneling/Slugging: Assume it every single match. It forces the errors the killer needs and breaks team coordination.
    • Survivors assume tunnel from second 0 (expanded): Pre-plan anti tunnel chains, pre-run on unhook, escort away from the triangle, 1 chase / 1–1–1 gen split, off-path heals, avoid greed vaults, pull proxy outward and don’t force through it.
    • At “Very Good,” tunnel/slug secures tempo—nothing more. Clean escorts + info discipline are what break it. If escorts are crisp and the killer overcommits, force a swap and take the gens they just donated.

    Top-level Players (High MMR / “Comp”) — Heavily Survivor-sided (SWF nearly unbeatable)

    • Opener botched: Spread’s fine, greed first hook → dumb 2-for-1; killer insta gets value → tempo swing.
    • Gen split off: Not 1 chase / 1–1–1; stack mid or break wrong 3-gen → tiny progress, free regress.
    • Heal vs. tempo: Stay injured forever or double-heal on-path = 30–40s gone. Do off-path resets or pre-run.
    • Shaky unhook: “Safe” save with no escort line; unhooked doesn’t run ahead → 2-for-1.
    • Pallet mistakes: Drop strongs too early inside the triangle or greed a 50/50 → hit + center position; anchors gone.
    • Comms ≠ roles: Lots of talk, no jobs—two escort, nobody anchors a side gen → rotations collide.
    • Weak proxy answer: Try to brute-force through proxy instead of pulling aggro and pre-running → grab/re-down.
    • Pallet/Tile economy: Use strong pallets late and only for save routes/key zones; don’t greed 50/50s.
    • Slug maement: Pick up safely (with info + position). If it isn’t safe, trade tempo and slam gens; don’t allow chain re-downs.
    • No unnecessary stacking: Don’t all stack mid; keep spread so the killer can’t get a center lock + regress.
    • no "wonderchases" wins the games at this point, good surviormacro wins the matches.
    • Tunneling/Slugging: Standard at this tier — the low-variance killer wincon. Timed past anti TUNNEL perks, situational slug for position, selective proxy at hook clusters to lock triangle/tempo. Assume it every match.
      Survivors assume tunnel from second 0 (what to do): anti tunnel perks chain prepped, escort pathing away from triangle, 1 chase / 1–1–1 split, off-path heals. No greed, no on-path double-heals. Pull proxy outward—never brute-force through it.
    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @DaSonic said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000952#Comment_4000952

    What you seem to ignore or forget is that MMR goes both ways. You can get bad teammates and get absolutely rolled by a weaker Killer, but you can also face a weak nurse or blight and win easily. Again, it all averages in the end, which is where you get the Killrate values. Killrate might just be the outcome, but it is closely linked with the cause. Ignoring it because it is "just" the outcome isn't healthy. It needs to be part of the discussion.

    y and i i already said this: MMR goes both ways, obviously. that’s why you need to match people cleanly. there are plenty of weak/inefficient killers and plenty of casual or just bad survivors—pair them together. i know good killers who don’t want this "super sweaty lobbies" and deliberately play soft. i know survivors who don’t go full meta and aren’t trying to deny all pressure from minute one. there are tons of casual/new survivors and casual/new killers. if you balance for the upper lobbies, plenty of players will play differently—and good MMR filters that. if you want to sweat or play clean, you naturally climb into a top slice (not top 4%) without touching the broad playerbase. my point: BHVR keeps staring at KR while the MMR is super watered-down mixing, which creates stomps that inflate the number. fix matchmaking first, then we can talk and look about a “favored role.”

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000894#Comment_4000894

    you can—balance around the good players. if folks can’t keep up, they improve and actually learn. plenty of killers don’t play clean either. weaker survivor stacks will face weaker, non-optimal killers anyway. but at least they finally have to learn the game—necessity over freebies.

    not every killer is good, not every high-skill killer sweats, and weaker survivor stacks won’t face them anyway—MMR funnels them into similarly messy, non-optimal killers. if constant stomps still happen, that’s an onboarding/MMR problem, not a balance one. balance for mastery, teach the floor, and let matchmaking sort the rest.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000923#Comment_4000923

    that sounds awful. i’m supposed to bank on the survivors’ macro being trash—can’t handle basics, burn every pallet in the zone, fail to avoid a 3-gen with four ppl alive early? you can tell you “don’t play killer much.” no half-decent squad gives you that. i’m not coin-flipping my win on them neglecting their survivor macro 100%, a huge gamble that they lletting dead zones happen in still-relevant areas, and refusing to use the whole map to dodge a 3-gen—then being “happy” with the occasional win vs a potato team while handing free escapes to the rest. that’s not my role as killer.

    Just the logic of constantly talking about “comp.”
    Every PvP game is competitive by default. Queue = consent to play to win. If you want uhm.. like a "sandbox," that’s Customs.
    Play how you want, sure, safe safe,—but your fun can’t come at your team’s expense. If you wanna meme, do it in KYF or with a stack that opts in.

    (or tune MMR so meme players get funneled into their own lobbies)

    Balance should raise the floor, not erase consequences for bad openers.


    PvP without competition is a contradiction. Queue means both sides are playing to win. For pure meme-vibes: KYF or stack, not randoms in live matches. Or just exept to die the momnt you only q for memes.


    So yup: you balance a PvP game for competitive play—not for memes. Every PvP game is balanced around competitive play; it’s on the devs to ship MMR/matchmaking that converges to true skill fast and reliably and doesn’t dump new/inexperienced/casual/meme players into "for them wrong"-MMR pools.

    MMR’s job is to match people with opponents they can actually keep up with—not to shrug at a bad system with huge outliers and then balance around it so inexperienced/casual/meme players still have a “good time” while getting thrown into much stronger lobbies. That’s what happens when you leave MMR broken and tune balance off kill rates instead of fixing the matchmaking.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @DaSonic said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000893#Comment_4000893

    You can't base your data on tourneys and scrims, since they function fundamentally different from your regular pub match, and do not represent what 99.9% of the playerbase is experiencing, no matter how much you want to.

    Regular DBD is an entirely different game to comp DBD and needs to be looked at separately. You simply do not balance around the Top 0.1% of players if you want to keep an active playerbase. Comp DBD balances itself, since they ban perks and killers and maps and whatnot. That is not BHVR's job. BHVR needs to balance regular public matches.

    In regular matches, survivors make mistakes and killers make mistakes. All in all, averaging out all of those mistakes, you still get the Killer favoring 60% Killrate. There is no denying this is Killer favored, no matter what scenario you try to think up. This is by design, of course, since BHVR wants Killers to be the power-role, but that doesn't make it any less favored to one side.

    KR is a blunt cut, not proof. it doesn’t tell you why people die: trades, scuffed MMR, throws, 1-for-3s, endgame gambles, altruism, and different win logic (killer = 4k, survivors = team outcome). comp ≠ pubs, sure—but comp is an early-warning system for outliers (perks/maps/add-ons) that grief pubs too. as long as MMR plays roulette and mixes you with much weaker players, you’ll get huge outliers—stomps with 4–5 gens up. KR measures outcome, not cause. pubs ≠ comp, but comp shows the spikes. balance = raise the floor, shave the spikes. fix MMR first, then we can talk which role is “favored” with a straight face. until then, i’m playing “comp” in every lobby the game gives me—like any other PvP game. it’s PvP.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000893#Comment_4000893

    This isn't data or proof? This is, what, 100 players maximum?

    There are probably millions of matches of DBD played every day. You cannot use such a tiny, significant and cherry-picked sample to dictate what the rest of the game should be like.

    you can—balance around the good players. if folks can’t keep up, they improve and actually learn. plenty of killers don’t play clean either. weaker survivor stacks will face weaker, non-optimal killers anyway. but at least they finally have to learn the game—necessity over freebies.

    not every killer is good, not every high-skill killer sweats, and weaker survivor stacks won’t face them anyway—MMR funnels them into similarly messy, non-optimal killers. if constant stomps still happen, that’s an onboarding/MMR problem, not a balance one. balance for mastery, teach the floor, and let matchmaking sort the rest.

    @THE_Crazy_Hyena said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000853#Comment_4000853

    But that scenario would only play out if you hyperfocus too much on one survivor, instead trying to burn though some good pallets, and then switch your focus to pressure people off of gens instead of committing to a chase that you know is going to lose you a lot of time. @Pulsar definitely explained this very well.
    As a killer you are at the weakest early, and getting exponentially stronger as the game goes on, since the area you need to cover is usually getting smaller, unless YOU make a blunder and allow the survivors to break your best 3-gen too soon.

    And don't over-rely on gen slowdown perks either. If you can do well with a more generalist killer build, then you are set for success.
    For example, use Agitation to save some time on getting people to the hooks. Brutal Strength to get rid of pallets faster, and to save some time on gen-kicking. All these little time saves DOES add up in the long run. Speeding up actions further, with perks like Fire Up can also help, since you are bound to lose some gens, regardless.
    And no, you don't have to resort to tunneling or camping to achieve a win (3K or more)

    I don't play killer that often, but this is my general knowledge of the role, and I sit at around a 60% average kill rate - Mostly because I often times feel bad for the survivors if I win too fast.

    that sounds awful. i’m supposed to bank on the survivors’ macro being trash—can’t handle basics, burn every pallet in the zone, fail to avoid a 3-gen with four ppl alive early? you can tell you “don’t play killer much.” no half-decent squad gives you that. i’m not coin-flipping my win on them neglecting their survivor macro 100%, a huge gamble that they lletting dead zones happen in still-relevant areas, and refusing to use the whole map to dodge a 3-gen—then being “happy” with the occasional win vs a potato team while handing free escapes to the rest. that’s not my role as killer.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000890#Comment_4000890

    Soooooo, you have no evidence? You have "tourney and scrims" but you have no actual empirical data. Nothing of any meaningful scale or contribution.

    You are the one making a claim. Provide proof? If you can't provide proof, you can't expect anyone to take you more seriously than the guy who thinks BHVR has it out for Killers.

    there are plenty of vids and gameplay breakdowns out there (and, like I said, with heavy perk/item limits on the survivor side for the most part).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=821ru-jDTvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naPiMDgV4H8
    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000866#Comment_4000866

    You keep circling back to, “KR is inflated by bad survivor play” as if that somehow makes it irrelevant. If the average outcome across hundreds of thousands of matches, even at high MMR, is still more kills than escapes, then the practical reality of the game is that killers are succeeding more often.

    You can’t just hand‑wave that away by saying “Well, if survivors played perfectly” because that’s true of literally any competitive game. Perfect play, or even consistently good play, is purely hypothetical. In a real game, players make mistakes without even knowing.

    And again, we do have segmented data for high vs low MMR, solo vs SWF, even some killer‑specific numbers, iirc. Those still show killers outperforming survivors in most brackets. If your position is that survivors are the real power role against most killers, then the burden of proof is on you to produce any real evidence of that.

    Until then, KR remains the only empirical, game‑wide metric we have. It really isn't perfect, but it’s a lot better than, “I’ve seen good survivors win when they play cold‑blooded.” That’s completely anecdotal. As of right now, the actual data says Survivors aren't winning nearly as often as Killers, even when you filter for the high end of play.

    there’s plenty of tourney/scrim footage where survivors win often and consistently (even with heavy perk/item limits on the surv side). my own escape rate is ~50%, but i mostly play solo/duo and don’t sweat escape—I’ll die for endgame plays or for good teammates. tbh, sweating my personal escape is boring; in a lost game I’d rather take a juicy last chase than hard-camp exits and pray the gates spawn far. if I cared more about the stats (and ran full SWF), it’d be different—as long as the team actually agrees not to sack themselves for nothing (though, endgame plays are fun) and we always secure the 2/3-man out when it’s there.

    so y.. sounds like a you problem.

    If I played purely for escapes and stats, my rate would be way higher. I don’t, though—endgame plays are fun, risky plays are fun. (and i don´t play much second chance perks)

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000866#Comment_4000866

    lol at anecdote doesn't equal data because you have only been pushing anecdotal evidence.

    I control where the chase goes, not the Survivor.

    how so the moment i pre-shift to the zone i like to have and build up my chase?

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @TWiXT said:

    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Survivors just won't be happy with the Nurse unless BHVR applies her old Torn Bookmark add-on effect:

    "The Nurse is unable to Blink to a Target location she does not have direct line-of-sight to."

    As her Base kit.

    If she could no longer blink through walls, and only to places she can see, then that stops her from heading survivors off at most high walled loops, and keeps her from blinking between floors of multi level maps. If instead they changed it so that she could only blink through walls and floors/ceilings with an ultra rare add-on, then Survivors would complain less, but still complain despite how MASSIVE of a nerf this would be.

    TBH, I don't think that even changing her like this would ever make the survivors "happy". The only way they'll ever be happy with her is if she can only blink on open ground, only 6 meters at a time, has a 10-15 second cooldown, permanently suffers from the blindness effect so she can never see auras, and still moves at her 3.86m/s. These changes would make her completely nugatory to the killer base, but even with all of these nerfs, made in an effort to appease the survivor player base… I'm sure they'll still complain until she's deleted entirely.

    kinda sad tbh. nurse is the only killer that still hangs when survivors play near-perfect—and she’s still beatable. same with old nurse: omega range, no recharge—5–7 blinks was a meme anyway. i just don’t get what survivors in 2025 are struggling with. feels like it’s never enough.

    (i miss the og devs. :/ )

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @PetTheDoggo said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000870#Comment_4000870

    situationally (and Nurse doesn’t have tons of perk variety), but it’s not uncounterable.

    You understand that what you say is literally only hold W in straight line, even if it ends in me getting downed, right?
    Because I am supposed to always expect she can see me, so double back is not going to do anything, if she does.

    Well, I would like there to be counterplay so get rid of it and make her actually difficult to play as…

    maybe route it differently next time

    Oh my bad for trying to break LoS, the only thing that works against Nurse, against perk I can't know she is using or not…

    ehw. you can ply for distance AND break los the same time?

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • and y, I don’t need aura. we can drop it. half the time it’s gamesense + good headphones anyway. if ditching aura means more perk variety on her, do it. Nurse’s perk pool got clipped when her basic counts as M2—a bunch of basic-attack perks don’t apply. Give her some other perk options back, then aura can go.

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @PetTheDoggo said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000861#Comment_4000861

    Cooldown of perk is not a counterplay. Expecting she can see me doesn't do anything.

    If I hold W she can down me, if I double back she can definetly down me.

    and vs Floods, time the unhook smart—wait till Nurse burns her blinks (at least one) and is stuck in recharge,so she dont get this pressure-value.

    So it's something I can't influence while in chase and you can't even know about it in first place…
    Wow, what a counterplay. I can see you waiting under the hooked survivor for 20 seconds waiting to hear her scream and do that every game.

    aura or not barely matters—it just helps new nurses. a cracked nurse doesn’t need it: blink in los checkspots + range = gg.

    Lol, it changes if my actions matter or not. Even best Nurse in the world need to guess when I lose LoS, that stands.


    But glad you said it doesn't change much, which means we can just get rid of it and it won't affect her :)

    situationally (and Nurse doesn’t have tons of perk variety), but it’s not uncounterable.

    If Nurse loses chase on you and Predator procs and you’re still in range to get caught by two blinks, then… maybe route it differently next time .. play for more distance.

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000843#Comment_4000843

    Yeah, here's the thing. If there is truly high-mmr, I'm already in it.

    Considering that I've been playing the game at a high-level since, I'd say probably 2019, I think I might know what I'm talking about.

    You are acting like Survivors have all the agency, and Killers are purely reactionary. I am perfectly capable, as a Killer main, of putting Survivors into situations where no matter what, I get a favorable outcome.

    For example, spawn spread can be annoying, but I know how to deal with it. If four Survivors spawn separately, if I find one, I know where the others are via spawn logic. I can chase one into another and hold them both in an area, thereby negating some of the damage.

    Another example, first chases and quick downs matter less than you think, especially today. I find that even if I don't get a quick down, removing strong pallets is almost better. In yesteryear, there were a lot of strong pallets. Too many to burn through quickly. Now? Maps may have 3-5 strong pallets. I can get through those and make my mid to late game laughably easy.

    Implying that I'm not knowledgeable (or good) enough simply because I have a different opinion is a little silly.

    Spawn logic can be broken. Any half-decent squad spreads to key gens (not the spawn gens), and the first chase is routed away from teammates/key tiles into irrelevant space. If the killer commits, he bleeds time; if he doesn’t, he still lost time rotating. Holding two survivors in one zone at start only works if the team is unorganized—it happens, you take those, but it says nothing about overall balance. Anecdote ≠ data.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @PetTheDoggo said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000822#Comment_4000822

    How exactly you counter Predator and Floods of rage on her?
    Then there is Lethal to make duration even longer…

    When I was doing challenges I just used Predator, Floods of Rage, Compass, and Lethal.
    Survivors can't do much against me in chase and I can easily stay in chase from start to end of the game…

    But it’s not uncounterable.

    Perks are not on most killer, but she becomes uncounterable with them. Her counterplay is breaking LoS and mingames, that doesn't work when she can see you and you don't know about it.

    .. can quote myself again:

    same with Predator—40s cooldown for a short aura. don’t instantly feel safe the moment you think the killer lost you. keep spacing and assume you’re still in chase vs Nurse. 

    and vs Floods, time the unhook smart—wait till Nurse burns her blinks (at least one) and is stuck in recharge,so she dont get this pressure-value.

    • nurse is nurse. she still does nurse things. strongest in the game. once the nurse knows her stuff, you’re not playing the usual loop game anymore.
    • vs nurse you need a whole different plan: try to get a top down view of the map in your head, turn the map into a chessboard and play pure macro, ’cause micro gets trimmed to nothing. if a good nurse has you in range, you’re just dead.
    • aura or not barely matters—it just helps new nurses. a cracked nurse doesn’t need it: blink in los checkspots + range = gg.
    • rn early to tighten your macro against her, regardless of aura read or nah
    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rulebreaker said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000843#Comment_4000843

    Well can you show us then? You obviously know everything that's the problem. Give us a view and point out your theories.

    oufm, not hard to do the math:

    vs decent survivors it takes ~25–40s to find and down someone, ~8–12s to carry and hook, plus a few seconds to pick up/position—call it ~40–55s per hook state before you even spend time patrolling or kicking. five gens are 450 survivor-seconds. if roughly three people are on gens most of the time (one kites, no goofy resets), that’s about 150s to finish. in that window a killer doing ~40–55s per state gets maybe 3–4 hook states. that’s not two deaths unless you snowball—stacked hooks, bad saves, refusing a 1-for-3, etc. even if it averages more like 2.5 on gens (some rotations/saves), you’re at ~180s, which still lands around 3–4 hooks before the gens are done. on Nurse/Blight the timing compresses; on M1s it stretches. with clean survivor macro (spread spawns, take the trade, minimal resets), gen throughput beats hook throughput—which is why “decent, cold-blooded survivors” feel favored against most of the roster until they hand you snowball windows (which many squads do).

    and yup, that back-of-the-napkin ignores toolboxes, gen perks, and great skillchecks, yada yada —we’re using the raw 90s base. all of those only push gen speed further in survivors’ favor.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000815#Comment_4000815

    Where's the large scale evidence?

    Even at High MMR, where you have to win a bit to be at, Killer is still killing more than Survivors are escaping.

    Large-scale dashboards would be great, but you don’t need them to see the pattern. Get yourself into high MMR (or watch verifiably high-MMR VODs), record 50–100 matches, and code the rounds. Tag opener quality (spawn spread, first two downs, hook stacking), SWF vs solo, reset timing, 3-gen states, trade calls, people throwing and when, /endgame/over commitment

    That tape tells you the why KR can’t: a lot of 4Ks come from early macro errors and refusing a 1-for-3, and a lot of escapes come from soft openers. KR without round context is a blunt instrument.

    Record it. Just analyze high-MMR matches. See where it breaks. It’s not that hard. You should be doing this anyway if you want to improve.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rogue11 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000834#Comment_4000834

    Knowing I'm about to get blinked on my exact location doesn't actually help when the killer has aura reading. Same goes for mindgaming when aura reading lasts for 9 seconds and the killer crosses the map in 5.

    Show me your POV where, off a Lethal Pursuer Nurse is in the surv spawn location n in ~5 seconds — not on one of her comfort maps. Your blinks aren’t even up yet, recharge is ticking, and I still have time to play LOS + distance.

    aura can be strong on Nurse — especially since her perk variety got clipped when her basic counts as M2, so a bunch of basic-attack perks don’t apply. But it’s not uncounterable.

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @Rogue11 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000822#Comment_4000822

    Very counterable. Shouldn't have outplayed the killer. Skill issue.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6ENDDYMTSBAX/image.png

    Very counterable. Shouldn't have loaded into the match. Skill issue.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VR10JVIXMTTG/image.png

    and you know what? you can mindgame Lethal. fake your pathing, don’t go to the first gen, assume Lethal is up and play at distance. same with Predator—40s cooldown for a short aura. don’t instantly feel safe the moment you think the killer lost you. keep spacing and assume you’re still in chase vs Nurse. seems like a big you problem.

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • it’s not like most aura-reading stuff isn’t counterable.

    in Nurse counterplay Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000802#Comment_4000802

    So, it isn't actually easy at all to win as Survivor. There's a whole lot of cope happening to justify not using KR's, since they are the only valid measurement we have. Without using KR's, we have a bunch of feelings and no empirical data.

    It really is crazy how we have that stratified data you mentioned earlier.

    We have the data per MMR. High and Low. We have some per Killer data. We have Solo vs all Groups of SWF.

    I think it would be very bold to say, "Hey, just because Killers are averaging a single Kill doesn't mean they're weak!" The inverse is likewise true.

    Ultimately, there is no empirical data that shows that playing Survivor and winning is easy, as you pushed earlier. There is data, if incomplete, that shows the opposite to be true.

    because a lot of survivor squads just throw. Part bad matchmaking, part emotions, part straight-up inefficient play. That’s why KR sits high. If you’re even a halfways stable player and your group plays cold-blooded, max-efficiency, Survivor is still the power role vs most killers on the roster.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000789#Comment_4000789

    It says less than people think only when it doesn't support their narrative.

    I could guarantee you we'd see countless posts if the KR came out to be a 40% average.

    As Killer you’re a one-man army with a clear win-con: pressure → downs → hooks → kils —> close the match. Decisions are linear, the feedback loop is direct, and “playing correctly” feels automatically right. You do the right thing, see value instantly, done.

    For Survivors it’s a coordination problem: four people, one shared win. That’s where emotions take the wheel — guilt over a trade, savior instinct, fear of salt / or emotional reactions from mates, “don’t let the mate die,” “I can’t let him hit phase 2 even if it’s efficiency-wise better.” Ego-saves, tilt after an early down. That often collides with what’s macro-optimal (e.g., accept 1-for-3, actually follow through on gen prioritization, don’t force a reset — “but he wants a heal now, the gen would be smarter, but… I’ll do it anyway”). Result: risky saves, double/triple downs, full-team wipe — and KR climbs.

    Add the info gap: SoloQ has basically no reliable calls; you read body language, misjudge distances, underestimate killer positioning. In SWF, comms smooth a lot of that out, but then you get altruism bias (“we save everyone”) and those hero plays that are objectively -EV.

    all of that stuff factors in. for killers it’s more “natural” to play strictly for win-con. "chase, down, hook, repeat → kill" .. survivors have other motives that come before pure escape: human emotion, team spirit, situational responsibility. KR doesn’t capture that. if a killer accounts for it and plays ruthlessly—he wins a lot, KR spikes. survivors often play human: “he’s death hook, i’m going in,” “i’ll take the hit,” “i’m not leaving him.” that’s nice—but KR doesn’t measure it. sometimes that style is efficient, often it isn’t. the win-con only says: out or dead. if the killer knows this and leans in—cuts trades, taxes saves, converts distance into dead zones, locks a 3-gen, hard tunnels and pushes survivors into must-help mode—games swing his way. of course KR goes up. not because everyone is bad, but because team spirit > other emotions > escape. and KR doesn’t show that part of the truth.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000789#Comment_4000789

    It says less than people think only when it doesn't support their narrative.

    I could guarantee you we'd see countless posts if the KR came out to be a 40% average.

    I’m not dismissing KR because it clashes with a narrative—I’m pointing at what the metric can’t show. KR is a coarse average across brackets, SWF sizes, regions/ping, map rotation, killer pool, and wildly different openers. It compresses all of that into one number and strips the how (spawn spread, hook/ trade decisions, reset timing, 3-gen states). That’s why KR ≠ the match.If the global KR were 40%, my point wouldn’t change. I’d still say it’s a limited signal and a shaky basis for balance on its own. What would be useful is stratified data (per-MMR, per-killer, per-map, SWF vs solo, early-down contexts) and then talk incentives.And that’s my core argument: rules that soft-reset early misplays create more low-quality wins regardless of where the average sits.

    As long as I regularly face opponents who make elementary—easily avoidable with a bit of game sense and minimal willingness to learn—mistakes, a high kill rate says little about my performance. KR without context about opponent quality is just an outcome number. What matters is what happens in the match: player quality, spawn spread, hook management, trade calls, gen prioritization, chase quality, and the team’s macro. Consistently punishing mistakes is correct play and drives KR up—but drawing blanket balance conclusions from that is methodologically weak.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000770#Comment_4000770

    If you think that's all there is to it, you are ignoring some facts.

    Most Killers, even at high MMR, are still hitting 60% or higher KR. Ergo, even good Survivors are not able to do this consistently.

    There must be something you are

    Many survivors play inefficiently or throw winning positions; even good groups refuse—after a certain point in the match—to give up one person and run straight into a Full-Team-Wipe. That inflates kill rates. Staring at KR without context is misleading: even in “high MMR” you still get EZ-snacks that give you absurd value. Plenty of players simply don’t belong there—SWF-boosted or whatever—and they sink the moment they have to stand on their own. And yes: sometimes the trade is correct—deliberately losing one so that three get out safely. If you don’t accept the trade, you often end up with a four-man wipe.

    KR ≠ this match; it’s not a one-game verdict. it doesn’t tell you what happened in-round—KR says less than people think.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @brewingtea said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000193#Comment_4000193

    "[Survivors] can easily win by rushing gens"

    EASILY

    It got downvoted because it's a ludicrous statement.

    ye okay—basic understanding + gamesense, using the resources around you, and not donating insta-downs is part of it. i expect that from people in my lobbies. i mean, that’s basics.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Amanova said:

    Sadly this is a harsh truth, only killers allowed to dictate games balance here, they barely listen to survivors only if it's a real imbalance

    Anyone who actually looks at the upvote/downvote ratio between killer and survivor posts sees the exact opposite.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • y.. ranked mode. yes, please. I would be full in.

    in Ranked mode? Comment by oecrophy

  • @ratcoffee said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000007#Comment_4000007

    It doesn't include DCs (which incidentally eliminates games where someone DCs because the game is already lost)

    It does include those other things you mentioned, but it also includes the games where killers are farming. Also, many of the things you mentioned were just "survivors made mistakes" and it feels wrong to say that games where players made mistakes shouldn't be included in stats.

    Players rarely DC now; they "dc" "their way." and soft-throw: camp under hook, AFK-gen for a grab, meme/drag feet till they die.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @THE_Crazy_Hyena said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000015#Comment_4000015

    That role has gotten its fair share of catch-ups already. To the point where power creep has gotten out of hand. Just look at killers like Ghoul, and the buffed clown. Is that the kind of power level you want from all killers?
    Hint: that would be incredibly unfun and unbalanced, aside from the competitive scene, where certain perks are forbidden.

    Ghoul isn’t OP; he’s poorly designed. Same with Clown. If changes are already confirmed, why are we still litigating this?
    Live-service 101: fresh releases/reworks get tuning. You can’t extrapolate two brand-new outliers—that are already being adjusted—to the entire killer role. BHVR often ships a bit overtuned, watches data/feedback, then dials it back.
    So why generalize the whole role from two edge cases that are about to be fixed?

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000022#Comment_4000022

    Good balance means both sides can win when played well

    They can't both have it. Demanding that a killer can -always- get a 4K must necessarily mean that survivors can get their 4Es denied no matter how they play.

    Nah. It doesn’t mean killers should always 4K — it means killers should have a real shot at a 4K vs ANY lobby. Hitting Ready isn’t an auto-lose against spezific lobbys. The outcome comes down to map/RNG, spawns, perk synergy, tiny (very little) misplays on both sides, and a couple won/lost 50/50 tiles. Even vs stacked top teams, killer should be able to win — without turning it into an auto-win for survivors the moment they make not huge missplays.

    @hermitkermit said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999995#Comment_3999995

    I have a source that might help with this. It's from "New Stats! [Pickrates, Killrates & Escape Rates] (January - March 2025)"

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V80C0VZNN8UR/screenshot-2025-09-10-133650.png


    This showcases the intended higher killrates, the lower escape rates, and further specify "which largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance" along with providing average vs. high MMR. I also have this:

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NCD7N8ZFRG4L/screenshot-2025-09-10-133029.png

    Basically saying it is their goal to improve the overall kill rate, specifically. (this is from 2022 as well, as it's been the goal for a few years now). They've been pretty open about wanting killrates to be higher for awhile now, and to keep survivor around 40%. This "imabalance" is the intended "balance".

    And? I

    @terumisan said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456470/does-dbd-favor-killers

    the game is killer sided from low to mid and when you go fron mid to high it's survivor sided

    dbd is balanced on survivors being terrible and not figuring out they can easily win by rushing gens and reading a hud and because a killers objective is not equal to the survivors objective a nurse or blight can get a down every chase and still lose because rushing gens is faster

    know that. Cool, but does that 60% include DCs, hook suicides, meme games/throwing, over-agg saves that feed the killer, or SWFs that refuse a death and overcommit? If that stuff isn’t filtered, the number is noisy.Is it split solo vs SWF, and then by MMR? (A lot of SWFs aren’t great, and many have 1–2 weaker players.) Without that segmentation it’s just an average that can hide where a role lacks—or has too much—agency.Even if BHVR aims for 60/40, the aggregate doesn’t prove fairness. SoloQ can prop the rate up while coordinated SWFs are nearly unpunishable. Depending on how DCs / “let’s have fun with this killer” games / suicides / inefficiency are counted, the headline stat tells you more about player behavior than role balance.Balance is about capability, not a single outcome metric: can a well-played killer actually threaten a 4K vs any comp without praying for throw-tier mistakes, and can solid survivors convert smart macro into escapes? Publish segmented stats (MMR brackets, SWF vs solo, map, region, time of day, killer pickrate) and design to those—not one glossy number.Otherwise all this shows is that many survivor groups are sloppy, inefficient, too aggro or too passive—and sure, that inflates kills. But what about groups that play clean and efficient for the win? At that point the game swings survivor-favored, and your killrates won’t reveal it—they’ll just average it away.

    @terumisan said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456470/does-dbd-favor-killers

    the game is killer sided from low to mid and when you go fron mid to high it's survivor sided

    dbd is balanced on survivors being terrible and not figuring out they can easily win by rushing gens and reading a hud and because a killers objective is not equal to the survivors objective a nurse or blight can get a down every chase and still lose because rushing gens is faster

    true..

    and.. the downvote ratio every time someone says anything even slightly pro-killer is wild.

    but.

    r4545.jpg

    .. its so funny. xD

    43444.jpg
    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @rvzrvzrvz said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000001#Comment_4000001

    It's not subjective they have said many times they prefer the game killer sided around 60% killrates, the last time they posted stats spirit, nurse and blight had between 65-70% winrate at high MMR so it's not just low mmr and low skill survivors

    their balance philosophy is flawed because really good killer mains don't sit at 60% winrate they can hit 80-90%, and at that point the game stops being interesting it's too predictable… if the game was balanced 4 kills would be just as rare as 4 escapes, and the best top players would win 60-70% of the time, this is the standard in well designed PVP games

    nah..

    the killer—should have a real chance to win vs any group if played well, independent of kill rates and without

     relying on major survivor mistakes. by “win” i mean a 4K. balance should let skill → 4Keven vs stacked comps. if the killer role needs throw-level survivor mistakes to win, that’s not agency.

    Independent of kill-rates. Good balance means both sides can win when played well — not ‘killers only beat top teams if they throw a major mistake

    That’s what a well-designed PvP game looks like to me.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @ImWinston said:

    • Devs have been saying for at least 3-4 years that they want "to favor" killers, I don't think it's a secret to anyone. The example of the fog vials literally shocked me.🤣 Killers complained and the fog vials were destroyed within 7 days🤣I literally haven't had time to try the fog vials as they were originally intended.

    some updates look a bit killer-sided because that role needed catch-up. The goal is balance, not favoritism.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @I_Cant_Loop said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999995#Comment_3999995

    I think they’re referring to the 60% kill rate target. A lot of people believe this is “unfair” and “favors the killer side.” It’s subjective and everyone is going to have a different opinion about what is “fair”.

    BHVR’s job is to get the most number of people playing and in the right ratio to reduce queue times. They’re not going to please everyone and it’s just a reality that no matter what they do, some people will quit or threaten to quit.

    Like it or not, 60% kill rate seems to be the sweet spot for accomplishing the above objectives. I remember how long survivor queues were during peak hours back before killers were buffed in the 6.1 patch. Survivor queues are still longer than killer queues during these hours, but it’s much better than it used to be. Playing killer feels a lot less frustrating as well. And as someone who plays both sides, actually survivor a bit more than killer, the 60% target feels pretty fair to me.

    I’ve seen many opinions here that the target kill rate should be 50% instead of 60%. Just consider for a moment what that would mean. The current average kill rate for killers going against 4-man SWF at high MMR is still over 50%. So these people want the average game for average killers of average skill going against non-premade teams to be even more difficult than that. Doing so would likely mean a mass exodus of killer players across all levels.

    With that said, I’ll now happily open it up for downvotes 😉

    i’m still of the opinion that the killer role—no matter the killer—should have a real chance to win vs any group if played well, independent of kill rates and without relying on major survivor mistakes. by “win” i mean a 4K. balance should let skill → 4K even vs stacked comps. if the killer role needs throw-level survivor mistakes to win, that’s not agency.

    right now the game’s basically balanced so coordinated survivor groups (esp. SWF) get a big safety buffer, and killer has no realistic 4K path without major survivor mistakes. the global kill rates hide it, since soloQ inflates killer numbers while strong premades only lose when they hard-throw— which, yipp, they often do. net effect: killer agency feels optional, not systemic.

    @ratcoffee said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999995#Comment_3999995

    I don't want to spend my lunch break tracking down the specific post it came from but BHVR have said they balance for a 60% kill rate / 40% escape rate.

    cool, but does that 60% include DCs, hook suicides, intentional throwing/memeing/playing badly, over-aggressive saves that feed the killer, and groups that refuse to accept a death and overcommit (lots of strong SWFs do this)?

    is it split by solo vs SWF and this by MMR? (i mean, most a lot of swfs are not good , a lot swfs have 1-2 "not so good" player in it) if not, it’s just an average that can hide where a role lacks (or has too much) agency.

    even if BHVR aim for 60/40, that aggregate doesn’t prove fairness—soloQ can prop it up while coordinated SWFs are nearly unpunishable. depending on how DCs / “let’s have our fun with this killer” moments / suicides / inefficiency are counted, the metric is noisy anyway. what matters is agency: can a well-played killer threaten a 4K vs any comp without praying for throw-tier survivor mistakes, and can solid survivors consistently convert smart macro into escapes? publish segmented stats (MMR brackets, SWF vs solo, map, region) and design to those—not a single headline number.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @BbQz said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999930#Comment_3999930

    Or.. "fixing" ghoul makes his value proposition lower and him being new means more money. We see this with new killers all the time.

    But the killer side is heavly favored but is it because of killers or people who play the role? Killers are over represented on the forms and as streamers And in groups of long term players that "prefer" the role.

    So there is a lot of incentive for these big loud groups to "gate keep" or fight back against anything that takes a inch from them or a perk that is inconvenient. It really is a shame because issues on survivor sides are severely under reported which is why it takes literal ages for fixes or balance changes to come see camping tunneling slugging 3 gening and other issues.

    I don't necessarily agree that killers are over represented on the forums, most of the big prominent names I think of here make mostly survivor inclined takes (many of which I agree with) and looking at the voting (which, admittedly is flawed) you often see killer takes, including ones with a great point, get downvoted whilst survivor takes tend to have more upvotes- even if all they've said amounts to "killers bad".

    • that’s why anything in favor of survivors always gets tons of upvotes — even if it’s short, kinda one-sided and unreflective — while anything in favor of killers gets a pile of downvotes, on principle.

    ?

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    They have openly stated that they do favour the killer, at least in terms of balancing.

    got an official source for that?

    as for asymmetry: in a 1v4, the four survivors scale with coordination and shared resources, while the killer is a single point of pressure. If both sides play clean, gens finish unless the killer has extra agency (mobility/info/slowdown) to force downs—so balance must lean killer enough to prevent stalemates. “killer-sided” here means sufficient threat to punish mistakes and actually resolve matches, not “killer should auto-win.”

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by oecrophy

  • @cogsturning said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999081#Comment_3999081

    I spread my gens. I understand when to unhook safely and when I'm forced to trade. I understand going to pallets when slugged. But I don't think you, in upper MMR, playing against teams, understand what the daily grind is like for mid-MMR soloq. No one is likely to pallet save you. They'll unhook you in the killer's face. They will burn through pallets and you won't know until you're on the run and find nothing but smashed bits. You're talking like everyone is organized and strategic and that is not the case for soloq at all. It's not the case for a lot of parties either. Soloqers are often (stupidly) selfish. I've had people intentionally bring the killer to me and use me as a shield numerous times. I've had them run out the door while I was on hook and was an easy save. There isn't just a lack of coordination, there's a lack of even understanding that coordination is necessary. And again, if that's the majority experience, it might need some tweaking.

    I had a recent killer match that was clearly soloq. Thre were three peopel left. I hooked an Adam for a second time. I went after a Steve. Ended up hooking him on the other end of the map. The Adam died on hook for no good reason. The third teammate was a rat. I stood by the Steve until he could unhook then I went rat hunting. That's what soloqers are dealing with. Partially, the porposed changes are about killers' behaviors. But they're about fellow teammates behaviors.

    Trust me i know ur pain.

    i get it. killer since 2016 → thousands of hours. late 2017 i found a stack and went mostly survivor-main for years. i only touched killer on good patches/comp/new killer drops to learn counterplay first-hand (super important). around 2022 i shifted back to more killer, but i never dropped survivor. i play both a lot. i know both povs.

    i’m in 2v8 lobbies and i grind tons of solo/duo at night (EU, after 00:00). i see the soloQ classics: no cover, no heals, “special-build” heroes inting, blind hook rushes, randoms feeding me to the killer in dead zones. endgame rats sprinting out while a free save is hanging — seen it a thousand times. and that’s after i basically carried the whole match while they farm insta-downs and often ignore the shared objective. (why do you think i sweat hatch so hard as killer? to deny those free escapes.)

    that’s exactly why i want my reaction tools. not win buttons — responses. you feed me, i press them:

    • unsafe unhook/farm → hold hook-side pressure until a real trade/bodyblock happens.
    • pallets torched / no resets → play tempo, chain downs, route through dead zones on purpose.
    • rat plays / exit greed → play for state value: secure hook progress, block the endgame split.
    • no saver, timer ticking → yes, situational camp. not “evil”; it’s how risk/reward stays functional.

    pretty? no. healthy? yes. soloQ throws shouldn’t be free. if you nerf killer because teammates int, the meta shifts to “throw with no consequences.” reaction tools (tunneling, sluggin) keep the economy honest: reward smart, tax sloppy.

    and let’s be real: your core point is basically “my teammates suck.” that’s not a killer mistake. the fix belongs in soloQ baseline, not in gutting killer options. stuff that would actually help:

    • basekit kindred-light: during hook state, everyone sees camp/radius info.
    • quick comms/pings: “i’m saving,” “killer on me,” “don’t come here,” “do that gen.”
    • 3-gen warning / deja-vu-light: early heads-up so randos don’t build a 3-gen by accident.
    • teamplay feedback: more score/visibility for saves, bodyblocks, heal resets — teach good habits.

    i’m 100% for making soloQ more playable — info, learning curve, light coordination. just don’t delete my answers to bad plays and bad players. when the lobby plays clean, i play clean: hook rotation, map split, pressure > hard tunnel. when it’s chaos, i need the option to respond. that’s what keeps matches fair for both sides.

    in "feels too punishing for Killers" - what kind of pathetic excuse is this? Comment by oecrophy

  • @cogsturning said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999056#Comment_3999056

    Why would those new and casual people stay then, if they lose every match? Again, the game can't survive on tryhards alone.

    Funny enough, I see the entitlement to winning way more from the killer side than the survivor side in this forum. I've regularly seen people ask how they're supposed to secure a win if gens are almost done and they have little to no hooks. The answer should be "you're not" but God forbid. What I've seen form survivors is mostly just a desire to play. I don't mind losing if I thought my opponent was better than me and it felt like a real match. What I mind is getting shoved out of the match immediately, or someone else getting shoved out and now the match feels hopeless. Or spending the match lying on the ground. The issue isn't not winning, it's feeling like you can't even attempt.

    Those people with massive hours and high MMR shouldn't be matched with mids and lows in the first place, which seems to be the core problem every discussion circles back to--matchmaking.

    You can’t balance a game so every new player stays. Some don’t want to learn—fair. A years-old PvP title will have a steep learning curve: others know maps, movement, macro. You can still have fun while losing if you like the core loop and stick with it.

    Personal example: Hunt: Showdown—pushed into 5–6-star lobbies because of my friend, died for 200–300 hours, constant “where did that shot come from?” moments. That’s how you learn.
    And DBD already has plenty of safety nets. The “you can’t even play” line doesn’t match what I see— and even when newbies hit strong Blight mains via SWF mmr boost. If you want to learn, you can.

    You can’t keep everyone.

    the players who want to learn will stay.

    I agree on matchmaking—I’d love a working ranked mode. Even with good MM, early on the killer role has the objective edge and survivors have way more to learn—that’s just how asym games work.
    Survivors have to learn maps, tiles, resources, rotations, saves, trades; a new killer vs newbies can often just run them down, press M1, and build hook pressure. Until the team understands and uses map & resources, it’s a walk in the park for new killers.

    The killer role is an absolute powerhouse at the start—because survivors carry the learning load,but once survivors get macro & pathing, the maps and how to use it.. it flips.

    I get it:

    and as is said:

    The killer role is an absolute powerhouse at the start—because survivors carry the learning load.

    But once survivors learn basic macro & pathing and how to use the map, it flips. And we’re talking fundamentals, not perfection.

    BUT: The “I spent the whole match on the ground / I couldn’t even play” feeling is very counterable even in super casual lobbies.

    There are so many stuff .. Simple lines that already fix most of it… .and there is no sweat squad required

    If you want a non-sweaty fix to most “I can’t even play” moments, start with safe unhooks: set up two people, one takes aggro and the other escorts, then get distance and reset instead of YOLO-unhooking in the killer’s face.

    After the unhook, don’t run back through burned tiles—break line of sight, rotate to a fresh tile, and either pre-heal or buy distance before you even think about touching a gen. Spread your gens early so you don’t gift a 3-gen; keep multiple gens tapped so a single kick doesn’t wipe all your progress. Take good trades near safety instead of panic hits in dead zones, be ready to cover ur team, and if the save was scuffed, don’t re-engage—reset and try again properly.Bodyblocks should be late and near safety; if the unhooked has no resources, escort them, don’t farm them.

    For anti-slug, call one person to pick up while the others keep pressure; if you’re downed, crawl toward pallets, teammates, or safer ground instead of deeper into dead space. Keep track of which pallets and windows are gone and route the team away from low-value zones so you’re not donating resources for free. If the killer commits to the unhooked, keep two on gens and one on screen, then swap—those reset cycles win you time. And if you want a bit of insurance, bring endurance/anti-tunnel, info, or quick heals—but use them to buy distance, not to ego-re-engage. (a lot of people die here, too bcause of this)

    .. i mean.. safe unhooks, gen spread, smart resets, and purposeful trades remove most of that “helpless” feeling, even in casual lobbies.

    From a long-time player POV: the more safety nets you add, the less people learn—they get stuck in that unwilling playstyle. If someone won’t pick up the basics (not mastery, just fundamentals), no amount of padding will keep them. You can’t retain everyone with bubble wrap.

    in "feels too punishing for Killers" - what kind of pathetic excuse is this? Comment by oecrophy

  • @drsoontm said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998915#Comment_3998915

    This thread and the reactions are a perfect example of why come here rarely now.

    You point to an argument, to a whole explanation video that speaks about strengths, weaknesses, balance, META: nothing helps. Doesn't fit the bias.

    I know the game is supposed to be for mature audiences but I'm pretty sure we are surrounded by kids.

    I'm off, I've seen enough for a while.

    I don’t get this community. I really don’t.

    I mean… I get it. BHVR needs to make money. They’ve clearly chosen to balance harder toward super casuals.
    But at some point—when is it enough?

    bhvr seem to balance for one thing: keeping new players coming back. If something reduces frustration and adds a few safety nets, it wins the internal tests, even if the game loses depth later.

    The new-player pipeline matters more than veteran skill expression. So you get onboarding tweaks, matchmaking padding, and “fail-safe” mechanics that keep newbies around faster—even if they water down high-skill play.

    The casual majority is louder than sweats, so it looks like an 80/20 consensus in feedback. Decisions follow volume, not depth.

    Quick band-aids beat real work. Blanket buffs ship faster than reworking maps, fixing hit-reg, or improving netcode—and they make the charts look pretty for the next report.

    Money-wise, happy casuals buy skins and bundles. Vets grind, own a lot already, and spend less. So the business side keeps the big crowd comfy, even if it sands off the edges.

    Built for coming back, not mastery.

    That’s why we keep getting safety nets instead of sharper gameplay.

    BUT.: Keep the threat in 4v1 and teach players—don’t make mistakes free.

    It’s gotta be enough at some point. New players already have so much—you only need a tiny bit of willingness to learn and some gamesense (not thousands of hours) to have a good time. DBD isn’t rocket science.

    Let mistakes cost instead of padding them.

    Give the game a tiny bit of challenge—the bare minimum—so super-casuals actually learn instead of steering balance every patch because “I’m not having fun” from a no-learning mindset. A little friction teaches safe unhooks, gen spread, pathing, smart trades. You don’t need thousands of hours—you just don’t need bubble-wrap around every misplay.

    You can see where this leads: flatter matches, M1-dummy killers, learned helplessness on survivors, and balance patches that keep adding bubble wrap instead of real learning curves.

    in "feels too punishing for Killers" - what kind of pathetic excuse is this? Comment by oecrophy

  • @cogsturning said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998966#Comment_3998966

    I only skimmed this video and that's more than most are going to do. I, too, don't want to watch some content creator blather on for an hour. But thinking people need to follow and watch all these streamers is part of the problem. A game should be playable at the lower ranks for people who don't want to get a doctorate in it or put in thousands of hours.

    You're kind of proving a point I keep making. There are people in here with 90% KRs. This forum is full of devoted players who don't represent the majority of new and casual players, and those are the ones who need the most help. They're also the ones who keep the game fresh and alive. You saying you have 4k hours and you're still average doesn't seem a little crazy to you?

    I see average and bad players running exhaustion perks. I don't see bad or average players running Conviction, Soul Guard, Made for This, Babysitter, or Background Player. I also don't see solo players running those much, because they're better on teams. The idea seems to be that survivor is strong IF you learn the right perks and play with other great people. Meanwhile, I don't feel like I have to lean that hard on perks as killer, or have outside factors, like potato teammates. If there was a perk-free mode, how do you think that would go? Probably 80% KRs for killers.

    I’m one of those hardcore players. But I’ve also brought a lot of new players into DBD from other games I play. And it doesn’t take thousands of hours to understand certain things—as soon as you actually want to learn. The Dredge example from Firellius above: that would have happened to my friends once, maybe twice. Then they’d understand the killer’s power, grasp the mechanic behind it, and they wouldn’t hand the killer that value at the start of the match anymore. You don’t need “thousands of hours” for that—just the willingness to learn and some basic game sense. That’s independent of perks.

    The big problem I see is this: many players only look at the situation, their own perspective, and the feeling that it was “unfair.” They don’t look at their own mistakes and refuse to reflect on and improve their gameplay. They end up stacking thousands of hours, stay stuck in the “that’s unfair” mindset, and blame the other side, which is simply capitalizing on their errors.

    And yes, playing super casual is totally legitimate—I’ll give you that. People pay money for the game; they should play however they want. But if you don’t want to learn or improve, and you just want to hop in casually, where does the expectation come from that you “deserve” a win against someone who invests more time in improvement, keeps trying to perfect their game, always looks for counterplay, and learns from every situation? That’s the nature of PvP. If you just hop in casually and don’t want to get better, and you run into someone with more hours who practices and analyzes more than you do… then part of it is accepting that you lose that match.

    in "feels too punishing for Killers" - what kind of pathetic excuse is this? Comment by oecrophy

  • @Firellius said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998874#Comment_3998874

    Had a match once where the very first jump I made with Dredge nabbed a locker-grab. Guy was locking a locker, as is the supposed counterplay.

    I don't think they could've done a gen.

    Survivor macro is griefing again. Locking lockers at spawn vs. Dredge is a waste of a limited resource. Besides that: off-spawn Dredge has no target; he’ll port to a locker to force first contact. If you start slam-locking, you broadcast your position, burn tempo, and still get grabbed. Know the power.

    But apart from this being a very specific situation, what failed here again was survivor macro. It isn’t even smart to use locks right at the start; it’s often just a waste of a valuable resource against this killer. Survivor macro also means knowing the killer’s ability well enough. Keep in mind: at the start Dredge has no target and will use his power to get into a chase—so what will he do? Port to a locker. Immediately running around closing lockers shows very little game sense on the survivor side. Sorry, but it doesn’t take much game sense to understand how Dredge’s early game plays out, to counter it, and to treat getting grabbed from a locker as a highly probable risk at that point. How much less smart do survivors want to play?

    Let’s be real: what does Dredge do at the start? Locker TP. It takes the bare minimum of learning (and the will to learn) and game sense to look at your own play and go, ‘Okay… maybe locking off spawn isn’t the play.

    Normal reaciton could be:

    “Sorry team, it escalated at 5 gens vs a not-even-that-strong killer—that’s on me. Next time I’ll adjust and play smarter.”

    You’d think, right? Reality: a lot of survivors’ learning curve flatlines. They repeat the same mistakes, expect the killer not to react, and then ping BHVR for more goodies so they don’t have to play thoughtfully or smart. Stop padding misplays—learn, adapt, improve.

    in "feels too punishing for Killers" - what kind of pathetic excuse is this? Comment by oecrophy
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