Comments

• @Firellius said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980253#Comment_3980253

  You know why? Guess what: I still get hit with all those perks the moment I don’t tunnel. You hook someone, walk away, and boom — the freshly unhooked survivor runs straight into your next chase. DS and Unbreakable locked and loaded, blocking you in the middle of a chase with someone else… and then what?

  You down 'em, and leave 'em.

  Even if they do pick themselves up with UB, that's two perk slots occupied by a hail mary tactic that requires them to use up a hookstate, then NOT contribute anything to the survivor side until they get a bodyblock in, after which they are incapacitated for an extended period of time.

  And according to YOUR own logic, that bodyblock is worthless. Because if it was actually significant…

  Healing is often not efficient because of the time loss.

  Healing would NOT be inefficient.

  Imagine calling Healing inefficient, but something that takes MORE time, MORE load-out, and gives LESS reward, is somehow incredibly unfair to the killer.

  Come off it, dude.

  If BHVR goes all-in the way you want – making tunneling basically impossible – that just means: no M1 killers for a while.

  Absolute nonsense. Everything will be just fine. Sure, you might lose a bit more, especially the addicts will have to take a knock, but you'll develop better skills, you'll get opponents closer to your skill level, and everything will be fine.

  What you're presenting here isn't what's going to happen, it's not an estimation of what's going to happen, it's what you -want- to happen, just to prove a point.

  But the reality is that killers are currently overpowered, so they can absolutely survive copping a nerf.

   Killers already chew through those perks right now.

  Once again flippering between 'this is the most unfair thing ever' and 'we already chew through 'em anyway, who cares'.

  how long do you think it takes before everyone sees it doesn’t work?

  How long would it take you to realise that you can play without?

  See, the problem here is that you're addicted to these tactics. That's why you start with your hypothesis, that the game is unplayable without them, and then work backwards from there. That's why you're firing off a lot of arguments, some of them contradictory to one another, because to you, the notion that tunnelling is required is self-evident.

  But to pretty much everyone else, it isn't. And you have to construct why it is required. And you consistently fail to do so.

  It’s not a problem right now

  Buddy, I've seen complaints about No Mither and Invocation: Weaving Spiders. Whether you can deal with it or not is not a requirement for something to be complained about. The reality is that most forum killers just aren't focused on these armed-to-the-teeth 4-man swiffers with rampant unhook denial, they just want to stomp lowbies harder. Which is why the focus is always on gen speeds, rather than the things that set these high skill teams apart from the rest.

  the penalty for having more people on one gen? Survivors know that. That’s why nowadays people do single-gens

  Until they can't anymore. Once there's three gens left, with four survivors on the field, they are significantly less likely to split up. At that point, a gen has to be done in the shortest possible time because the killer's pressure naturally ramps up. Which means grouping up. Which means slower repairs.

  Healing? When? Why? With most killers, you stay injured. Healing is often not efficient because of the time loss.

  I've seen plenty of people talk about a 'healing meta', but go off, I guess.

  You can’t just throw inefficient stuff into the calculation.

  Firstly, this isn't inefficient stuff. Survivors do have travel time for example, unless you're going up against such 'high skill' opponents that they opt to just literally teleport from gen to gen. In which case your observations about balance are wrong for an entirely different reason.

  But secondly, this brings us back to your Motte-and-bailey!

  Remember how you said that the perfect, immaculate survivor team was NOT part of your argument and thus it wasn't supposed to be a motte-and-bailey fallacy?

  Well guess what? If your 'calculations' do not allow ANY level of inefficiency, you're arguing based on the immaculate survivor team again! You know, the one that's completely irrelevant to discussions about balance because no one plays perfectly?

  It's all just backwards arguing. You start from your conclusion and then look back to grasp at whatever appears to support it, as opposed to looking at what you have and then constructing a conclusion.

  It is an act of absolute desperation to think that you can 'calculate' DBD.

  But y, like I said up there, and like I’ve said elsewhere before: it’s just not worth having big debates anymore. The lines have hardened so much over the years, that whole “us vs them” thing—it’s basically a concrete wall now.

  Breaking through that, finding some middle ground? Total waste of time.

  So what’s left? Game on, chat off, and just full-on “I don’t care” mode.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8xr20FXYBw

  So just.. i don´t care. Why not?

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 9, 2025

• @oecrophy said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980307#Comment_3980307

  Nowhere. I just think it’s kinda sad that a post that’s supposed to be about stats — how accurate they are and all that — just instantly devolves into the usual “it’s the Killer’s fault” thing, led by the whole tunnel talk.
  And ye, I’ll admit it: proxy camping, slugging, tunneling — sure, that affects the stats. Strongest tools in the Killer’s kit. Baseline stuff.
  But… why is it always just that?

  Why not, in the same breath, talk about how it’s barely even worth trying to defend gens anymore? You turn around once, and you’ve got three people — injured or not — sitting right next to your chase on a gen. Play something weak and they know your limits here. They know. They know that even if you drop chase right now, you’re not stopping that gen.
  I can live with that, as long as I’ve still got my counter-pressure tools. But why is nobody talking about matchmaking when one side is clearly having a bad time? Or about certain perk synergies that are actually too strong? Nope — it’s always the same topic. And that’s me, the second I play Killer.

  And honestly? This post… what’s gonna happen?

  At some point it’s just gonna fade into silence. There’s not gonna be an “agreement” between us. Its just the normal us vs. them thing. This community is just too split. I’m not gonna stop doing what I do. They’re not gonna stop fighting against it and asking for more “goodies” that make my experience worse.
  This community is, at its core, too divided. Nobody’s willing to give up even a piece of their kit or what they have. (Myself included) There’s never gonna be a “we” between Killers and Survivors. A single voice. It’s just not gonna happen. I’ve known the game and the community too long to believe otherwise.

  Players will always push back against whatever frustrates them the most.
  Killers go after gen speed, “OP” survivor perks, or now the new fog item.
  Survivors go after whatever frustrates them the most — new Killers/abilities they can’t counter (OP), or yup, I KNOW… the big bad camping, tunneling, slugging.

  Don’t get me wrong — things that frustrate people should be discussed. Especially new stuff (Clown, fog, Conviction, whatever) — you need feedback to balance things after release. (A PTB is just a test environment; you can’t see all the problems right away. Look at Ghoul — still a huge mess.)
  But when it comes to stuff that’s been in the game forever and kinda balances each other out — gen speed vs. the “evil” slugging/camping/tunneling — there’s never gonna be middle ground. One side will always want to take something away from the other. And nobody’s willing to give.

  There’s never gonna be a “we” here.

  Which is a shame, because I do see things both sides could actually benefit from together. Where Survivors and Killers could go to BHVR with one voice.

  Like…
  Better MMR.
  Better servers (ye, it sucks to get tunneled and eat that 3–4 meter hit through a window — a Survivor has one chance when injured, and it sucks to lose it to latency).
  Better hit registration — huge difference whether you get smacked 3 meters around a corner, whether a hatchet still connects, or whether as Killer your hit actually lands or not.

  Better tools for SoloQ, so the gap between Solo and SWF isn’t massive.

  
  Sure, if you only look at stats, you might say:
  “Well, what’s the difference? Escape rate’s about the same.”
  But when you actually watch the games, you see the difference clearer.
  SoloQ lobbies sometimes just get crushed. 5 gens up, dead zones, no calls, insta-down, proxy camp, tunnel, out.
  SWF: early callouts, more frustration from being found at bad spots, but overall way more organized, longer games.

  A lot of SoloQ losses happen because they just get steamrolled — not just by the Killer, but also bad teammates or throwers. Hence their escape rate.
  A lot of SWF losses happen because they get too cocky, too greedy, overcommit to saves, play overly aggressive.

  In SoloQ, the game is often decided early, 4–5 gens up.
  In SWF, it’s often in late game where they all die to a NOED camp (just an example).

  SoloQ has more frustration. SWF usually has the better game.
  Solo players see stats like “top SWFs don’t escape more than me” and just think “so everything must be unfair.”

  But a good SWF plays very differently than typical SoloQ. Many don’t even care about escaping — they enjoy the aggressive style way more (because the efficiency meta is boring… early call, early run, early drop).

  Where SoloQ ends up in an unwinnable position because of a missed callout, SWF avoids those spots — but gives Killers more openings for counter-pressure through their aggression.

  So no, you can’t just go: “SWF and SoloQ have the same escape rate, therefore Killer OP.”

  And since we’re on the topic of the “nothing I can do — insta-down” situations that impact both sides…

  Better, fairer maps for both sides would be a win for everyone

  But nope.

  These discussions always end the same way:

  The evil Killer tunneled, and that’s the root of all evil.

  You down 'em, and leave 'em.

  Even if they do pick themselves up with UB, that's two perk slots occupied by a hail mary tactic that requires them to use up a hookstate, then NOT contribute anything to the survivor side until they get a bodyblock in, after which they are incapacitated for an extended period of time.

  And according to YOUR own logic, that bodyblock is worthless. Because if it was actually significant…

  If they’re smart, you’re not getting both. that bodyblock just gave the chased survivor free distance… or enough time to slam an red syringe on the fly, as a nice little “thanks” for not tunneling the first guy.
  and yup, good bodyblocks are strong. Where did i say somethin different? Always have been. They’re part of good teamplay and solid cover. It’s just situational — you can’t overcommit to them. But when they’re done well? Absolutely worth .. and the person on the bottom doesn´t have to use his ub yet, there are other mates that can go for a fast pick up..

  Healing would NOT be inefficient.

  Imagine calling Healing inefficient, but something that takes MORE time, MORE load-out, and gives LESS reward, is somehow incredibly unfair to the killer.

  Come off it, dude.

  phew. With the new fast heals, sure, it’s become more common… but why would I bother healing if I’m not even on death hook and the killer’s playing soft?

  Nobody does in that case. You just slam gens — maximum speed wins the match.

  If the killer is applying insane pressure, then y, sometimes you have to heal, even just for trades… that’s when the killer buys themselves time and pressure.

  But without killer-side pressure? Why heal?

  What kind of lobbies do you get where people play like that? And which killers do you play there?

  I mean, with the new healing speed they sometimes they do. But only if from killer side is enough pressure-back.

  Absolute nonsense. Everything will be just fine. Sure, you might lose a bit more, especially the addicts will have to take a knock, but you'll develop better skills, you'll get opponents closer to your skill level, and everything will be fine.

  What you're presenting here isn't what's going to happen, it's not an estimation of what's going to happen, it's what you -want- to happen, just to prove a point.

  But the reality is that killers are currently overpowered, so they can absolutely survive copping a nerf.

  Nah, I’m good with losing. I take the L if I get outplayed. Or did too many costy mistakes.

  but I’m not losing because I held back in some way.

  because..

  I don’t wanna lose, okay? Everyone jumps into the lobby to win — Survivors, Killers, even bots!

  But seriously, where the hell do I check my skill level? Is there some kinda rank-o-meter or something? Like “DbD Skill-Meter: How much of a noob are you today?” :D

  How long would it take you to realise that you can play without?

  See, the problem here is that you're addicted to these tactics. That's why you start with your hypothesis, that the game is unplayable without them, and then work backwards from there. That's why you're firing off a lot of arguments, some of them contradictory to one another, because to you, the notion that tunnelling is required is self-evident.

  But to pretty much everyone else, it isn't. And you have to construct why it is required. And you consistently fail to do so.

  Sure, I could to play play without those tactics. Seriously, I could. I could try it. But why would I shoot myself in the foot and then sign up for a marathon?

  It’s like running a loop blindfolded, hoping the killer trips over their own feet. Y, maybe it could work — but if you actually want to win, it’s pretty unlikely.

  So no, I’m not just gonna toss my tools away — I’m not about to watch the round pass me by in slow motion. A win’s a win, and for that, you need the right gear...

  I mean.. what do you expect?

  survivors show up to the race with running shoes and energy gels, and I’m supposed to jog in flip-flops and hope for the best.

  Buddy, I've seen complaints about No Mither and Invocation: Weaving Spiders. Whether you can deal with it or not is not a requirement for something to be complained about. The reality is that most forum killers just aren't focused on these armed-to-the-teeth 4-man swiffers with rampant unhook denial, they just want to stomp lowbies harder. Which is why the focus is always on gen speeds, rather than the things that set these high skill teams apart from the rest.

  You know, it’s exactly these kinds of accusations that just put me in the ‘I don’t care’ mode. I know this community way too well after all these years. Nothing’s gonna change.

  So yeah… I don’t care.

  And all this just because I’m playing the game the way I can :/

  but y. You got me.

  You got me completely. That “mean guy” just wants to stomp on lowbies — and it’s kinda sad and bitter that it has to be me.

  Once again flippering between 'this is the most unfair thing ever' and 'we already chew through 'em anyway, who cares'.

  y. I do. Because if a lot of stuff gets into the base kit, it’ll take even longer during the tunneling process to work through all that—and survivors already have more perk slots ready to go.

  Firstly, this isn't inefficient stuff. Survivors do have travel time for example, unless you're going up against such 'high skill' opponents that they opt to just literally teleport from gen to gen. In which case your observations about balance are wrong for an entirely different reason.

  But secondly, this brings us back to your Motte-and-bailey!

  Remember how you said that the perfect, immaculate survivor team was NOT part of your argument and thus it wasn't supposed to be a motte-and-bailey fallacy?

  Well guess what? If your 'calculations' do not allow ANY level of inefficiency, you're arguing based on the immaculate survivor team again! You know, the one that's completely irrelevant to discussions about balance because no one plays perfectly?

  It's all just backwards arguing. You start from your conclusion and then look back to grasp at whatever appears to support it, as opposed to looking at what you have and then constructing a conclusion.

  It is an act of absolute desperation to think that you can 'calculate' DBD.

  It’s not about being “perfect”… Even every average, halfway decent player knows this: max efficiency wins games. Survivors literally set the pace just by playing how they play. As a killer, you’re just trying to keep up with that speed. And .. I’m not even complaining — I’ve got my for u "evil bad candy tools" to do it.

  but um..

  So, mind if I ask how long your killer games usually last on average? Ever timed it? Just curious.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 9, 2025

• @crogers271 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980304#Comment_3980304

  I'm going to do my best to condense points that are getting really long.

  -Flashies

  I never said they are too strong or what your opinion on them is. Its an example of something that once upon a time was too strong, got nerfed, but is still part of a game and that some players, not all, think should get more nerfed, but that doesn't mean they would be completely removed.

  -The portion you quote in German

  Y, but just because a tactic is too strong against a lot of groups, what about the groups that actually need those tactics to even have a chance?

  DbD is a situational game that I'll get into a bit more later.

  And he’s not even talking about weakening those tactics — he wants them completely gone from the game.

  That is not how I read what he has posted at all but I'll leave that part to @Firellius and you.

  Or isn’t it about time for way better matchmaking, buffs for solo queue, and debuffs for SWF?

  -Matchmaking: No one knows the numbers for certain, but I suspect at the higher levels there just aren't enough 4 person callout SWFs to match up against the top level killers (given all the difficulties of forming a SWF in comparison to the killer role). Basically, I don't think you can fix the game by fixing matchmaking because the top level (and bottom level for that matter) is so incredibly tilted that the 4v1 nature breaks down for match ups.

  -Soloq/SWFs: it opens up another can of worms because SWFs are of radically different strengths and this is one of the firmest things BHVR has said they'll never do.

  There's a number of buffs I think they could give to help out soloq that they've been reluctant to do. Some I understand why, even if I disagree (i.e. argument that seeing perks would lead to toxicity) and others that I think they are foolish not to do (example being showing a survivor who can self unhook in a different color making things like deliverance viable in soloq).

  What I really want to say is: It’s not about wanting to win all the time. But I want to keep the chance to WIN — even against efficient groups. (forgot to quote u my last post)

  This gets more into broader game theory and what they are designed to do.

  We have games like Chess where when a player loses there can be very clear: you did this, it was a mistake, here is what you should have done. On the opposite end of the spectrum we have card games, at the extreme end speed no limit hold 'em. Which plays are correct or not is incredibly subjective and, frequently, you can make the absolute right statistical play and still lose.

  Both games are games of skill though they have different levels of randomness. Some people like both, others have strong preference for one design over the other. Some like the clarity of chess, others find it stale, while card games can offer everyone a chance and high variability with every game, while others dislike the randomness and lack of clear 'what is the right play'.

  Everything BHVR has ever said about what they want from DbD puts it more toward the high random elements of game design theory. This doesn't mean the game lacks skill, but just like card games you need to play a bunch of times to see who the better player is. Personally, I think that makes the game far more entertaining, but understand that its a spectrum of design and everyone has their preference.

  If you think the stuff killers have is too strong from a design perspective, what about the efficiency tools survivors have?

  As I said in an earlier post, stuff gets nerfed all the time. People disagree about what is deserving of a nerf, but that things will be nerfed/buffed/changed is inevitable.

  Like you listed Buckle Up as something to take away from survivors and, well, okay, that's quite a take as I'd sacrifice Buckle Up for anti-tunnel without hesitation. Me I'd start with toolboxes and syringes probably as things that seem overpowered for survivors.

  I never said they are too strong or what your opinion on them is. Its an example of something that once upon a time was too strong, got nerfed, but is still part of a game and that some players, not all, think should get more nerfed, but that doesn't mean they would be completely removed.

  keh..

  alright, if I read him wrong, fair play — my bad. Asked him already if in my Nurse game that’s straight-up tunnel camping, since one survivor was right near the hook with me and I had line of sight on it… 1 dude was farming the hook right in front of me. So, does that already count as camping + tunneling?

  Like, if it’s legit for me to hang tight near the hook, deny the unhook, punish the guy trying to save right under my nose (and "tunnel" the unhooked?), and slug the everyone’s clearly in my sight — then y, can i in this situations keep my "goodies?"

  I just don’t wanna lose them, you know? I’m not just gonna let everything happen right in front of me just ‘cause I’m “not allowed.”

  A lot of SoloQ losses happen because they just get steamrolled — not just by the Killer, but also bad teammates or throwers. Hence their escape rate.
  A lot of SWF losses happen because they get too cocky, too greedy, overcommit to saves, play overly aggressive.

  In SoloQ, the game is often decided early, 4–5 gens up.
  In SWF, it’s often in late game where they all die to a NOED camp (just an example).

  SoloQ has more frustration. SWF usually has the better game.
  Solo players see stats like “top SWFs don’t escape more than me” and just think “so everything must be unfair.”

  But a good SWF plays very differently than typical SoloQ. Many don’t even care about escaping — they enjoy the aggressive style way more (because the efficiency meta is boring… early call, early run, early drop).

  Where SoloQ ends up in an unwinnable position because of a missed callout, SWF avoids those spots — but gives Killers more openings for counter-pressure through their aggression.

  So no, you can’t just go: “SWF and SoloQ have the same escape rate, therefore Killer OP.”

  And since we’re on the topic of the “nothing I can do — insta-down” situations that impact both sides…

  Better, fairer maps for both sides would be a win for everyone

  Y, but what’s the “right” play when someone goes down, two people instantly rush me with flashies, the guy on the ground has conviction + plot twirst, and while I hit one of the flashy players, I turn around and the downed person is already back up?
  Yup… bring Lightborn, sure.

  was a good quickswitch at 6 seconds — as I do as surv. (so i wasn´t even mad) But if they had been downed in a pallet… I get it, survivors have their new toy. I’m fine with that. But I want to keep my toy too.

  That situation was completely uncounterable for me no matter what I did. Picking up was impossible, slugging was impossible. I was just stuck. I want to keep the right to get my pressure back later in the match — maybe in a “cheap” way? Damn yes, it´s cheap.. But that Conviction into Plot Twist combo is no less cheap.

  dvd at this point isn’t always a “skill game.” A lot of the time it’s about who brings the strongest stuff and stacks it high. And yeah, even so: you’re right, I hate the randomness. I don’t want to risk something like that happening mid-game after I’ve “gone soft” once. I take every bit of pressure I can get the moment it’s there.

  i mean.. what do you even do in these situations? Do you just let everything happen to you? Or do you tell yourself, “Yohh… if that happens, I’ll punish it, but otherwise I’ll play soft”?

  Okay, fair.. but: big BUT: what if you’re playing super soft and then something like that happens on the last two gens, and it flips the whole match? Does that “Yup, one or two kills are fine” mindset kick in? You can have that mentality, sure, but I play for the win. And for me, that means the whole team. Doesn’t mean I’ll always get it, but losing a match I felt like I had under control because of something like that… and losing the entire round just because I didn’t put on enough pressure early?

  lot of things start happening the moment you give them “breathing room.” You need that constant pressure on the team.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 9, 2025

• @tes said:

  I’m just genuinely impressive about arguing on this thread. That’s… a lot

  Nowhere. I just think it’s kinda sad that a post that’s supposed to be about stats — how accurate they are and all that — just instantly devolves into the usual “it’s the Killer’s fault” thing, led by the whole tunnel talk.
  And ye, I’ll admit it: proxy camping, slugging, tunneling — sure, that affects the stats. Strongest tools in the Killer’s kit. Baseline stuff.
  But… why is it always just that?

  Why not, in the same breath, talk about how it’s barely even worth trying to defend gens anymore? You turn around once, and you’ve got three people — injured or not — sitting right next to your chase on a gen. Play something weak and they know your limits here. They know. They know that even if you drop chase right now, you’re not stopping that gen.
  I can live with that, as long as I’ve still got my counter-pressure tools. But why is nobody talking about matchmaking when one side is clearly having a bad time? Or about certain perk synergies that are actually too strong? Nope — it’s always the same topic. And that’s me, the second I play Killer.

  And honestly? This post… what’s gonna happen?

  At some point it’s just gonna fade into silence. There’s not gonna be an “agreement” between us. Its just the normal us vs. them thing. This community is just too split. I’m not gonna stop doing what I do. They’re not gonna stop fighting against it and asking for more “goodies” that make my experience worse.
  This community is, at its core, too divided. Nobody’s willing to give up even a piece of their kit or what they have. (Myself included) There’s never gonna be a “we” between Killers and Survivors. A single voice. It’s just not gonna happen. I’ve known the game and the community too long to believe otherwise.

  Players will always push back against whatever frustrates them the most.
  Killers go after gen speed, “OP” survivor perks, or now the new fog item.
  Survivors go after whatever frustrates them the most — new Killers/abilities they can’t counter (OP), or yup, I KNOW… the big bad camping, tunneling, slugging.

  Don’t get me wrong — things that frustrate people should be discussed. Especially new stuff (Clown, fog, Conviction, whatever) — you need feedback to balance things after release. (A PTB is just a test environment; you can’t see all the problems right away. Look at Ghoul — still a huge mess.)
  But when it comes to stuff that’s been in the game forever and kinda balances each other out — gen speed vs. the “evil” slugging/camping/tunneling — there’s never gonna be middle ground. One side will always want to take something away from the other. And nobody’s willing to give.

  There’s never gonna be a “we” here.

  Which is a shame, because I do see things both sides could actually benefit from together. Where Survivors and Killers could go to BHVR with one voice.

  Like…
  Better MMR.
  Better servers (ye, it sucks to get tunneled and eat that 3–4 meter hit through a window — a Survivor has one chance when injured, and it sucks to lose it to latency).
  Better hit registration — huge difference whether you get smacked 3 meters around a corner, whether a hatchet still connects, or whether as Killer your hit actually lands or not.

  Better tools for SoloQ, so the gap between Solo and SWF isn’t massive.

  
  Sure, if you only look at stats, you might say:
  “Well, what’s the difference? Escape rate’s about the same.”
  But when you actually watch the games, you see the difference clearer.
  SoloQ lobbies sometimes just get crushed. 5 gens up, dead zones, no calls, insta-down, proxy camp, tunnel, out.
  SWF: early callouts, more frustration from being found at bad spots, but overall way more organized, longer games.

  A lot of SoloQ losses happen because they just get steamrolled — not just by the Killer, but also bad teammates or throwers. Hence their escape rate.
  A lot of SWF losses happen because they get too cocky, too greedy, overcommit to saves, play overly aggressive.

  In SoloQ, the game is often decided early, 4–5 gens up.
  In SWF, it’s often in late game where they all die to a NOED camp (just an example).

  SoloQ has more frustration. SWF usually has the better game.
  Solo players see stats like “top SWFs don’t escape more than me” and just think “so everything must be unfair.”

  But a good SWF plays very differently than typical SoloQ. Many don’t even care about escaping — they enjoy the aggressive style way more (because the efficiency meta is boring… early call, early run, early drop).

  Where SoloQ ends up in an unwinnable position because of a missed callout, SWF avoids those spots — but gives Killers more openings for counter-pressure through their aggression.

  So no, you can’t just go: “SWF and SoloQ have the same escape rate, therefore Killer OP.”

  And since we’re on the topic of the “nothing I can do — insta-down” situations that impact both sides…

  Better, fairer maps for both sides would be a win for everyone

  But nope.

  These discussions always end the same way:

  The evil Killer tunneled, and that’s the root of all evil.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 9, 2025

• @crogers271 said:

  I thought this thread had run its course, especially because we are so far away from what the OP started with, but then it pops back up to the top of the forum.

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979310#Comment_3979310

  I should just as much lose if I play super bad, make tons of mistakes, and mess everything up. Sure. I don’t expect any comeback mechanics from BHVR if I fail to apply early pressure. I’m not asking for gens to suddenly slow down just because I’m struggling. I don’t expect to get a free Lightborn because some flashy safe denied my first hook

  This just seems to be jumping to extremes.

  Gens have slowed down. 10 seconds were added to them because they were going too fast and killers were struggling.

  Lots of killer players will talk about flashlight saves being too easy. I don't presume they want them eliminated entirely and the suggestions they make about certain perks / playstyles can be discussed on the merits of those suggestions.

  And if a flashlight save stunned the killer for ten seconds we could all, hopefully, agree its too egregious and wouldn't be fun (call back to the insta blind days which were changed as they should have been).

  It's about trying to find the right spot for game elements.

  Everyone has different ideas and proposals. Some people will like one, others won’t. I’ve made suggestions myself — ones that don’t directly punish the killer.

  Based on what though? Are we discussing game design, as in what would be the best elements for the game, or we discussing desires to win all the time?

  Because when I look through the next few posts I see comments from you such as:

  it’s not my job as the killer to spot every little mistake survivors make and just slide through. Survivors don’t do that either — they bring everything they’ve got. And thats totally fine. It’s a PvP game.

  At no point do I see @Firellius getting into a discussion of a 'killer rulebook' or anything like that. He's discussing the merits of game design and pointing out how certain tactics are too strong and in need of a nerf (at no point do I see them say an elimination, but a nerf).

  Things get nerfed all the time. We can go to extremes like infinites and 3 genning, but also Dead Hard, MFT, FTP+BU, etc. Some things get nerfed, brought back, nerfed, and then brought (viability of self healing). Tunneling is due for a nerf, I'm fairly doubtful we'll get anything substantial, and given that its an elimination style game I'm uncertain what practically they can do, but its definitely one of the major issues that exists within the game.

  @crogers271 said:

  I thought this thread had run its course, especially because we are so far away from what the OP started with, but then it pops back up to the top of the forum.

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979310#Comment_3979310

  I should just as much lose if I play super bad, make tons of mistakes, and mess everything up. Sure. I don’t expect any comeback mechanics from BHVR if I fail to apply early pressure. I’m not asking for gens to suddenly slow down just because I’m struggling. I don’t expect to get a free Lightborn because some flashy safe denied my first hook

  This just seems to be jumping to extremes.

  Gens have slowed down. 10 seconds were added to them because they were going too fast and killers were struggling.

  Lots of killer players will talk about flashlight saves being too easy. I don't presume they want them eliminated entirely and the suggestions they make about certain perks / playstyles can be discussed on the merits of those suggestions.

  And if a flashlight save stunned the killer for ten seconds we could all, hopefully, agree its too egregious and wouldn't be fun (call back to the insta blind days which were changed as they should have been).

  It's about trying to find the right spot for game elements.

  Everyone has different ideas and proposals. Some people will like one, others won’t. I’ve made suggestions myself — ones that don’t directly punish the killer.

  Based on what though? Are we discussing game design, as in what would be the best elements for the game, or we discussing desires to win all the time?

  Because when I look through the next few posts I see comments from you such as:

  it’s not my job as the killer to spot every little mistake survivors make and just slide through. Survivors don’t do that either — they bring everything they’ve got. And thats totally fine. It’s a PvP game.

  At no point do I see @Firellius getting into a discussion of a 'killer rulebook' or anything like that. He's discussing the merits of game design and pointing out how certain tactics are too strong and in need of a nerf (at no point do I see them say an elimination, but a nerf).

  Things get nerfed all the time. We can go to extremes like infinites and 3 genning, but also Dead Hard, MFT, FTP+BU, etc. Some things get nerfed, brought back, nerfed, and then brought (viability of self healing). Tunneling is due for a nerf, I'm fairly doubtful we'll get anything substantial, and given that its an elimination style game I'm uncertain what practically they can do, but its definitely one of the major issues that exists within the game.

  Based on what though? Are we discussing game design, as in what would be the best elements for the game, or we discussing desires to win all the time?

  What I really want to say is: It’s not about wanting to win all the time. But I want to keep the chance to WIN — even against efficient groups. (forgot to quote u my last post)

  And it doesn’t even have to be the really good SWFs. Even average players squeeze every bit of efficiency out of the round. Everyone gets it: it’s about maximizing efficiency wins — survivors included.

  If you think the stuff killers have is too strong from a design perspective, what about the efficiency tools survivors have?

  And no… this isn’t me whining about “gen speed being broken” or anything. But that’s only because I also have my strong tools for applying pressure.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• This just seems to be jumping to extremes.

  Gens have slowed down. 10 seconds were added to them because they were going too fast and killers were struggling.

  Lots of killer players will talk about flashlight saves being too easy. I don't presume they want them eliminated entirely and the suggestions they make about certain perks / playstyles can be discussed on the merits of those suggestions.

  And if a flashlight save stunned the killer for ten seconds we could all, hopefully, agree its too egregious and wouldn't be fun (call back to the insta blind days which were changed as they should have been).

  It's about trying to find the right spot for game elements.

  Y. Flashlight saves have become super easy compared to before, when you still had to master perfect timing within the animation (that used to take some practice in KYF). And you always had to think about your positioning. Today, you just bring BGP and it gets even easier. But damn... flashlight saves are an interactive part of the game.

  Whether giving background player + flashlight too strong a synergy is debatable, and I’d also say: yeah, it is — it kind of cancels out the need for smart positioning and takes away a lot of counterplay options from the killer.

  But even with BGP and all that stuff: currently, all these “survivor toys” are fine. And that’s good. BECAUSE: As a killer, you have their tools too.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWINf7lP88s&t

  Here’s how much value I get from background players… So no, I don’t think Flashy plays are too strong right now. Because yeah, I can sometimes put a safe hit on the killer that maybe they can’t deny. BUT — the killer has their tools.

  And honestly, a lot of my games end up being “fun times” with the killer not because the item or perk is too strong, but because the killer isn’t using their tools properly.

  I actually expect the proxy camp and the direct tunnel. If that doesn’t happen? Sorry killer. If I were the killer, I’d never give myself that much breathing room to actually have the luxury to play like that.

  Nope. I’d be applying crazy pressure from the start so survivors don’t get the chance to “play too much.”

  Against good killers, I just die as a survivor if I try to overdo it—and that’s a good thing. Proxy camp me, tunnel me, I don’t care. I’m not gonna go to the forums and ask for “anti tunnel... pls? :,(((”. (I know I’m gonna die against good killers if I overdo it with my little pew pew. :D )

  Good killers don’t even give you the chance to overplay it in the match. But that’s just because they have their “kit” to work with.

  (This doesn’t mean flashlights are useless, but against good killers you can’t just go flashy YOLO all the time. A good save can often turn things around situationally. It helps in “down in pallet” situations and often a flashlight save can win the round.

  So y, I don’t think flashlights are too strong—only in rounds where the killer just lets me get away with it. Doesn’t use slugging or tunneling.

  Everything Firellius is asking for is stuff that just shouldn’t happen (I, as a killer, don’t do that or I just bring Lightborn if I don’t wanna worry about it).)

  ..

  Y, but just because a tactic is too strong against a lot of groups, what about the groups that actually need those tactics to even have a chance? Right? Should we always just watch them escape? Should some teams just become unbeatable? We’ve had that era already. I don’t want it back. Do you?

  And he’s not even talking about weakening those tactics — he wants them completely gone from the game. We’ll get some nerfs in Phase 2, sure (he’s hoping for a full removal, but that’s not gonna happen). But even with those nerfs, there are so many groups that are already hard to catch. Those groups will still benefit a lot from the “nerfs,” because they get new perk slots to stack super strong survivor perk synergies.

  The balance is already razor thin.

  It’s always the solo queues, the casuals, and the “super chill” players who get the short end of the stick. The mixed lobby folks. The “ez snack” matches. But… do we really need these anti-killer measures right now? Or isn’t it about time for way better matchmaking, buffs for solo queue, and debuffs for SWF?

  Especially considering how a strong group can stack so high they create basically “we’re unkillable” perk synergies? Come on. When was the last time you saw a Shoulder of Burden in solo queue? That’s just an SWF toy. A Deliverance? SWF tool. Babysitter in solo or mixed lobbies? Nope. Reassurance? BU? FT? Or the new Conviction? These perks are pretty trash on their own, but they help SWFs make crazy strong synergies.

  Why don’t we tackle that first? Why does it always have to be anti-killer measures? Why not fix matchmaking first, then deal with these insane survivor synergies? The typical solo and casual lobbies wouldn’t even be affected—they don’t run these perks anyway, mostly because they suck solo. They take other stuff instead.

  I’m notwhining here. I get it and I live with strong SWFs stacking perks. It’s a hard arms race. But that’s only because I have the tools I have. So why not start with matchmaking? See how rounds go, then decide which balance changes are really needed based on that?

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• Are you joking?

  You expect a balance change specifically designed to curtail the overbearing power of camping, tunnelling and slugging to do away with anti-tunnelling, anti-camping and anti-slugging measures?

  I've said it as a joke before, but you're actually bringing it out here: 'Anti-tunnel measures are fine, so long as they don't hinder my tunnelling'.

  Yeah… I do!
  You know why? Guess what: I still get hit with all those perks the moment I don’t tunnel. You hook someone, walk away, and boom — the freshly unhooked survivor runs straight into your next chase. DS and Unbreakable locked and loaded, blocking you in the middle of a chase with someone else… and then what?

  • Pick them up? – Sure, enjoy eating my DS.
  • Leave them on the ground? – No problem, Unbreakable. And if not, then anti-slug measures will just pop them right back up.

  End result: you’re stuck in a “I can’t pick up, I can’t slug, I can’t do anything” situation.
  Or you just have to eat the DS — as a thank you for not tunnelling.

  So tell me… what’s the point of these perks if they just get used aggressively against the killer the second I’m not tunnelling/camping/slugging/whatever?

  Anti-FACEcamp.

  Camping is still perfectly doable. It's why anti-camp doesn't kick in at all if there's other survivors near the hook. All this measure really accomplished was teach people how to camp more effectively!

  And that's part of the problem of your opposition to these measures: They haven't even been outlined yet! You don't know what you're agitating against, you're just afraid that your time is up!

  Ye, I’m scared of the changes – but not because my “time is up.”
  People have always demanded stuff, changes came, people adapted… or they quit. That’s just how it’s always been.

  If BHVR goes all-in the way you want – making tunneling basically impossible – that just means: no M1 killers for a while. Nurse only. (Which, btw, most killers in my MMR are already doing.) You think people are gonna like that? Guess what? They won’t. And BHVR will eventually walk it back once they see it’s not working.

  ’(Cause a lot of groups just turn basically unkillable if tunneling, slugging, and camping are completely off the table, but everything else stays exactly the same.)

  And honestly, I don’t think you’ve watched much of the dev streams. What we’re probably getting is more like no-collision after unhook (which would actually be a good thing – no more blocking with free BT) … plus something like free OTR or DS or whatever.

  My guess? Once “anti-tunnel” drops, you can still tunnel just fine – it’ll still be the most efficient way to play. Killers already chew through those perks right now. We see them constantly. All this will do is give survivors more slots for “fun perks” … and survivors will bring them.

  That’s just gonna make even more killers play in ways survivors don’t want. And if they somehow remove camping and tunneling completely, the way you’re dreaming of… how long do you think it takes before everyone sees it doesn’t work? How many players will leave or switch to the “only top” killers?

  And if that were truly a problem, we'd probably get adjustments to that, too, but there's barely any complaints about that stuff! It's always, always, always just a generalised complaint of 'I lost, fix it'.

  I'm absolutely on board with nerfs to hook denial, but I also feel like I'm the only one on the forums that has that stance!

  It’s not a problem right now — and that’s because the killer actually has the tools to deal with it. The exact tools you want removed.

  If someone tries to sabotage me — just look at my Huntress games:
  I can slug. I Proxy.
  I can take out the sabo player with direct tunneling whenever the opportunity arises.

  Right now, what survivors bring to the table isn’t that bad, because the killer’s base kit — independent of perks — includes counters for all of it.
  It only becomes a real problem if everything you want gets removed.

  You can already kinda see what a problem that could turn into in matches with people who, no matter what happens, still try to be “super nice and friendly” and just take everything that’s thrown at them. Always playing by the “rulebook.” And when they finally complain about feeling powerless, the answer is always the same: slug… tunnel.

  And those complainers get quiet again. Because right now, that stuff works. But what if it really goes 100% how you want it to?

  Show me your math then. Let's see you compile

  every

  single

  factor

  in your 'calculations'.

  The examples you want me to include just don’t work…

  the penalty for having more people on one gen? Survivors know that. That’s why nowadays people do single-gens. And my math doesn’t even include toolboxes, brand new parts, etc. Healing? When? Why? With most killers, you stay injured. Healing is often not efficient because of the time loss.

  People are whining right now because they want to bodyblock and cover during tunneling, or because someone’s on a dead hook. But if you play on fresh hooks, most survivors won’t heal anymore against the majority of killers. Why would they? They only heal if the killer is putting insane pressure (which usually comes from tunneling or proxy camping), so they can take hits or trade.

  and say it again:

  The examples you want me to include just don’t work…

  You can’t just throw inefficient stuff into the calculation. By that logic, I could also say, “what if the group clears all bold totems before touching the first gen…”

  You gotta base it on the situation that the team plays efficiently.

  I mean..

  If I start adding inefficient stuff into this equation, I might as well include: “What if the killer just strolls around the map for 30 seconds checking RNG, then casually drops by the survivors to politely ask if their little squad is ready to slowly start the whole kill process?

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• @Firellius said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979361#Comment_3979361

  Y, but let’s be real — that tactic has proven to be the strongest, most efficient, and most reliable option available. And even then, it’s not a guaranteed win. It’s just the best shot you have in a game that’s stacked against the killer in coordinated settings.

  This is really not the argument you want to be making here when trying to defend tunnelling, camping and slugging, after showing up with an 85% kill rate while averaging not even 6 hooks.

  It's the strongest, the most efficient, the most reliable, it is head and shoulders above all competition.

  In other words, it is long overdue for a nerf.

  t’s not about who asks the “deeper questions,” but about the fact that certain patterns only become clear when you actually analyze matches properly.

  Yes, but BHVR making decisions you, personally, don't approve of, is not evidence that they haven't done that.

  In some cases it's obvious, like the Clown changes, but in some cases, it's just something you'll have to swallow.

  There are no 'big questions' left to be asked about tunnelling, camping and slugging. All of them have been on the table for years now. We've been over them, again and again and again, and there's simply no way around it anymore: It has to change.

  might have gotten the faster down in that specific situation. But on a macro level, an early 3v1 is exponentially more efficient than a slightly faster down on a fresh hook.

  But now you're making Hag compete with Hag, not with the survivors. Yes, hard tunnelling will get you the win faster than not tunnelling, but that doesn't mean that not tunnelling makes you lose.

  The benchmark isn't 'tunnelling Hag', it's the opposing team.

  You can often still win, of course.

  So what, then, is the problem?

  And honestly, what’s the point? I mean, you’re the killer, not a teammate. You pick and use the strongest tools you have, just like survivors do on their side.

  Because this feels like a mask-off moment. No longer is the argument that the game is unwinnable without these tactics, it's more just that you have lost all perspective on a game without it.

  You're essentially an addict.

  but often you just have to.

  You really don't. The vast majority of teams you go up against will not be of such a high level that you 'need' to tunnel, camp or slug. This one has actually been proven.

  But the problem here is, again, any match that you win with these tactics will immediately be considered a match that you couldn't have won without, even though you don't know how the match would've gone if you hadn't used them. It's a form of confirmation bias.

  The only way to confirm your claims about the game being unwinnable in the absence of these tactics is to play without them. And since this attitude:

  And honestly, what’s the point? I mean, you’re the killer, not a teammate. You pick and use the strongest tools you have, just like survivors do on their side.

  Is so pervasive, we're not going to get that data from the playerbase.

  So it's up to BHVR to step in and change the game.

  This is really not the argument you want to be making here when trying to defend tunnelling, camping and slugging, after showing up with an 85% kill rate while averaging not even 6 hooks.

  It's the strongest, the most efficient, the most reliable, it is head and shoulders above all competition.

  In other words, it is long overdue for a nerf.

  I’m maybe, maybedown if they nerf some stuff on the survivor side too? Like, slow down genspeed a bit, and make those crazy perk synergies impossible? Ged rid of some survivor fun perks then? If we gotta nerf the killer’s most efficient strat, then the same treatment should go to survivors’ best strats. OTR; DS; SHOULDER; Unbrekable, conviction, babysitter, ftp, bu, sg, deli, reassurance?

  all this “anti-tunnel/anti-slug” stuff can leave the game forever then, right?

  Yes, but BHVR making decisions you, personally, don't approve of, is not evidence that they haven't done that.

  In some cases it's obvious, like the Clown changes, but in some cases, it's just something you'll have to swallow.

  There are no 'big questions' left to be asked about tunnelling, camping and slugging. All of them have been on the table for years now. We've been over them, again and again and again, and there's simply no way around it anymore: It has to change.

  But… we do have an anti-camp. How big is that supposed to be? What if someone’s getting chased right next to the hook like here? Then the killer turns back to the hook, and someone just rushes the unhook right in front of me?

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4TDXhUz1Wg

  Am I just supposed to stand there and watch in situations where survivors are playing super open and straight-up dumb? And if suddenly everyone is running around me, am I not even allowed to slug anymore… even though literally everyone’s right on top of me and thinks it’s smart to run around a Nurse in the open?

  Chase near the hook, then even back towards the hook, then an unhook right under my nose… and I’m not allowed to tunnel? And if suddenly everyone shows up, I’m not even allowed to slug? Even though everyone’s running all around me?

  Why am I supposed to just overlook stuff like this and let it happen, even if I’m playing strong?

  The benchmark isn't 'tunnelling Hag', it's the opposing team.

  The benchmark is simply that the game is an arms race on both sides. Survivors bring the strongest stuff they’ve got — same as I do.

  So what, then, is the problem?

  I can often win in different ways, but it’s not my job as the killer to spot every little mistake survivors make and just slide through. Survivors don’t do that either — they bring everything they’ve got. And thats totally fine. It’s a PvP game.

  If the killer’s struggling and can’t get a hook for ages, survivor groups don’t care — they’ll still sabotage, deny the first hook with flashy plays, bodyblock, and all that. Even if the killer hasn’t gotten a single hook after 4 gens, survivors won’t just hand over free stuff. Zero chance. They’ll still go down for a pallet safe, they’ll still hit the killer right in front of the gen and keep working on it while the killer wipes the weapon.

  And that’s totally fine. Survivors don’t owe the killer anything in that situation — and that’s okay.

  Why is the killer always expected to hold back, but survivors never have to

  Or just look at endgame situations. Even when there’s a hook in the endgame, survivors still run in, bodyblock, and do everything to secure the full 4-man escape. They don’t just hand the killer that one kill.. Thats the game.

  You really don't. The vast majority of teams you go up against will not be of such a high level that you 'need' to tunnel, camp or slug. This one has actually been proven.

  But the problem here is, again, any match that you win with these tactics will immediately be considered a match that you couldn't have won without, even though you don't know how the match would've gone if you hadn't used them. It's a form of confirmation bias.

  The only way to confirm your claims about the game being unwinnable in the absence of these tactics is to play without them. And since this attitude:

  A lot of matches I simply wouldn’t win without it — you can calculate that pretty easily. Past a certain point, you mathematically need an early kill with most killers, otherwise the time available in the match just doesn’t add up. And with many killers, it’s simply not mathematically possible to achieve that goal through only fresh hooks — there just isn’t enough time in the round.

  You can take a first chase from match, analyze it, and check whether there was any mistake the killer made that could’ve shortened that chase. If the answer is “no” and the first hook still happens at that time, you’ll quickly realize it just doesn’t add up mathematically.

  i mean.. look, against a efficent squad it goes like this:

  Survivors need about 450 seconds to pop all 5 gens. With 4 people, that’s around 110 seconds per person.

  If you get a kill, there’s only 3 left, so those 450 seconds get split between 3 — about 150 seconds each, which means roughly 40 extra seconds per player.

  Sounds nice, right? But here’s the catch: the first chase usually takes like 30 seconds, plus 5 seconds to get the hook up — so about 35 seconds before that hook’s done.

  That leaves you with around 40 seconds bonus time per survivor after the kill. If you don’t tunnel, you’re basically handing them the time they need to keep gens moving.

  If you don’t keep the pressure up and tunnel, they just use that extra time to finish gens faster than you can catch up.

  So ye, tunneling isn’t just some toxic “cheap” play — it’s straight up necessary if you wanna keep up

  And..

  just out of curiosity—would you call what I do in my Nurse rounds ‘camping’? Like, I stay near the hook because there’s a survivor trying to save, and instead of peeling off and running, they even turn back toward the hook? like … they’re playing right into it

  is this already campin for u?

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• @tes said:

  tbh, tryharding mmr that shares lobbies that bring the strongest load out to game is only valid thing. And I’m pretty sure it will lead to less toxicity, because try hard on both sides accept that fact that tunnel or genrush is valid as strategy and no one (usually) won’t throw some kind of tantrum in endgame chat later because they expected “chill game”

  Y, thanks tes! this is such an important call, thanks for bringing it up. BHVR, please, we really need this. I can handle the toxicity that comes at me every day — I’m used to it. But I also know those people didn’t have a good time in my game either. Neither did I. I don’t want those kinds of lobbies.

  Usually, when you play against people who go “all in,” you’ll still get a GGwp no matter what tricks you pull in the game. Most of the time.

  It’s usually the casuals, newer players, or people who are overwhelmed — the kind of lobbies you probably shouldn’t even be in — that end up being toxic and mad in the worst ways. (Sure, there are also groups that stack everything to make your game miserable, but they still rage the moment the killer actually goes full force. Those people are just toxic by nature.)

  But all this toxicity mainly comes from throwing so many people together who really don’t belong in the same pool.

  And besides that — what’s the point of constantly balancing things back and forth? What’s it gonna do for you, BHVR? Why? How are you supposed to make balance decisions when a lot of killers, perks, whatever might only be “too strong” because those players are just totally overwhelmed in that match?

  In my opinion, it would be so much more important to get a solid MMR system in place before you mess with balance stuff again. Before thinking about punishing the killer role even more with anti measures, or whether anti-slug or anti-tunnel stuff is really all that important.

  Like, BHVR, please! Fix the matches first. I really think that’s the key, seriously.

  in Sick of try hards Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• @kaoraku said:

  Okay, maybe you are not new to the game, but you are definitly newbie as a killer as others mentioned earlier.

  Saying that those perks are free anything… What? Which perk is free? I mean ok, Lethal is free. Once in the game, at the very beginning. The 2 second part needs another perk slot, and some condition to trigger that other perk. And all the other perks demand something from you (for example to hook somebody), so it is not free. Or something from the survivors, which you as a killer not really able to force (or at least very limitied), and after the first value from it they will probably know that you have, and play around it.

  • Nurses - used infinitely, not even a cooldown - Sure, but works only if you heal too close
  • Killer instinct - used infinitely, also makes the surv not be able to detect terror radius (But no hand holding right?) - No killer has an infinite killer instinct. None. And you know when and how it will show you.
  • Awakened Awareness - used infinitely, no cooldown - Only infinite if the survivor is not wiggleing
  • BBQ - don't even have to explain myself - Not infinite, only a few seconds IF YOU FAR ENOUGH, and you have to hook somebody to trigger it
  • Bitter Murmur - used infinitely, for basically free. - Not infinite, triggers only if you LOOSED a gen

  Wallhack… Seriously. Survivor aurareadings are not wallhacks? Why are they different? Also the whole point of the perk system is that you get advantages in some situations. On both sides.

  About the 2nd chance perks….

  Deadh Hard
  Decisive Strike
  Off the Record
  Borrowed Time
  Borrow as basekit
  Unbreakable
  Adrenaline
  Buckle Up
  Soulguard
  WGLF
  
  And we can keep bring perks to there.

  When I said "speed" it was not the toolboxes… It was just a list. Speed as you used them have on survivor side too. Called exhaustion perks. But there are others too, to vault the windows faster (meanwhile you already able to vault faster then the killer, and the killer cannot vault a pallet for example). And yeah. The killers are faster then the survivor, but seriously man. Without that they would not able to catch anybody who not stand still, since their hitbox is bigger, they cannot vault pallets etc. To bring that there is just dumb to be honest… And definitely not holding hands.

  Syringe use the medkit… Yeah. But save a ton of time. You can chase, you can heal somebody else, you can repair - the heal will kick in over time. And all the killer can do against it is hit you before it happens.

  Calling those perks "holding hands" is dumb I think especially since all of those are in the kit for survivors too.

  @FusedGod265 said:

  why do they have to ruin all the good perks for survivors. Just went to use street wise noooooope its awful now. You ruined distortion as well. How about you ruin lightborn and franks demise it seems fair you take the best perks away from survivor that you change some of the killers.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4TDXhUz1Wg&feature=youtu.be

  tested that infinite aura build on the killer who should profit the most from aura reading… and guess what? No infinite aura for me! Like, nada. refund! I want my money back!

  And yup, I’m mad too — they gave me a gen early because I gambled wrong. Why isn’t lethal even a thing with the infinite aura stuff? I totally missed that

  I’m out here like, “Hello? Infinite aura? Is this thing on?!”

  I’m out here like, “Hello? Infinite aura? Is this thing on?!”
  I… I… I… want my infinite aura… NOW!
  I want my infinite aura… NOW!

  Or at least throw me a consolation pizza. :(

  No infinite aura for me.
  I’m mad now!

  in Perk ruiners Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• @UnicornMedal said:

  Honestly it's hard for me to blame other players, despite how frustrating it is, because the game encourages that play style. If camping/tunneling/slugging on Killers with bloated kits wasn't the norm, then I wouldn't spend so much time dealing with it. The game itself has to change long before the players will.

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979065#Comment_3979065

  I really dislike MMR, but it's hard for me to really tell which system was worse. With grades, I remember getting matched with Iri 1 Nurses on more then one occasion back when I was only like rank 13 (along with the odd rank 20 that was way out of their element).

  I really dislike MMR, but it's hard for me to really tell which system was worse. With grades, I remember getting matched with Iri 1 Nurses on more then one occasion back when I was only like rank 13 (along with the odd rank 20 that was way out of their element).

  Ugh, I kinda miss the old emblem system sometimes. (<3!) Pre-MMR times, lobbies were way more mixed. Like, noticeably so. Back then, the standard advice for any killer problem was always, “If you’re having a hard time in the match, just chase someone else.” And honestly, that usually worked. Mixed lobbies meant there was almost always “someone else” — a survivor you could catch quickly and get a hook on, which created some real pressure.

  Overall, matches were more relaxed, lasted longer, and felt way more varied than now, where both sides just try to grind out the most “efficient meta” possible. Yeah, a lot was heavily survivor-sided and boosted back then, but because survivors dictated a very different pace and even rank 1 lobbies were pretty mixed, you had more opportunities to play more “chill” and follow the “survivor rulebook.” You actually had the time for that.

  But those days are gone. They’re not coming back. And even though it’d be “nice,” just bringing back the old system now would be a complete disaster. So much has changed. Killers have adapted. Survivors have adapted. The MMR system kicked off an arms race and pushed the game toward efficiency and new playstyles. People play how they play now, and I honestly think that’s burned in deep.

  You just can’t bring something similar back.

  Both sides would still squeeze the max efficiency out of every round. Survivors wouldn’t suddenly stop running the strongest perk synergies and speedrunning gens, and killers wouldn’t just stop camping or tunneling overnight. Those habits are too ingrained.

  But idk, that’s just how I see it — maybe I’m wrong..

  But..

  Not trying to idealize the old system — because: I liked tryharding, the challenge, facing good players. I don’t want the mixed lobby ‘easy snack’ advantage or random pressure from "more chill" players. Sometimes I wish there was more ‘you had more time’ feel. But that era is gone and won’t come back.

  Right now it’s all about building the strongest perk synergies to deny pressure and laser-focus gens against all the killer tools — less interaction, more speed, less chase focus.

  Maps and resources limit how you can play, (I remember counting over 30 pallets on one of my maps back then, wild times xD )

  so slowing down the game isn’t really possible anymore. That’s just how it is now

  sometimes I wish I could go full tryhard and switch up my playstyle from how I usually run things

  … i mean..

  MMR’s tpday is still bad and u get hella mixed sometimes, but even in those mixed lobbies? Everyone knows it — max efficiency is how you win in this game

  in Sick of try hards Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• @Tong said:

  Well, trapper is OP instantly if he use health lost add-on … that's some ######### balance the dev got.

  In what way does that make Trapper "OP"?
  As someone who usually stays injured against most killers anyway (unless I’m on dead hook) — once I get hit once, I generally just stay injured unless someone on the team has a fast-heal perk or item.
  And I do this against killers that are way stronger than Trapper in their basekit.

  What makes Trapper OP for u? I don’t get it.

  As someone who played my fair share of Trapper, some buffs that might help:

  Basekit Trapper Sack (so he starts with all traps)

  Increase the disarm time from 3.5 seconds to 5 seconds

  Remove ability to trigger his own traps / allow him to walk over them

  y..

  especially letting Trapper start with his traps already set up would be a fair and important change.

  in Simple, basic Trapper mini-rework Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• 100% camping? Usually not worth it.
  Proxy range is better. How far you hold it depends on your killer, the hook phase (1st or 2nd), and how good the hook position is.

  Waiting right next to the hook only makes sense if you're hard denying the unhook before phase switch.
  Tunneling? Usually way more efficient. Stay close enough to catch them right after the unhook and try not let a reset happen

  Hook control isn’t always part of the kit — but if you go for it, do it right. you will lose to much pressure if you straight from the start only "just camp".

  in Killers camping hooks Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• yup. I say this from the other side. I love tryharding. just give us proper MMR that actually separates players based on "skill/playstyle/name it whatever" . I'm so tired of these 'non try-hard' lobbies, rounds with zero challenge where I'm constantly thinking: 'What is this person even doing?'

  Before you keep endlessly tweaking balance, can we please just get decent matchmaking first? That way the data you're using to make balance decisions would actually make sense

  in Sick of try hards Comment by oecrophy August 8, 2025

• I don’t care much for tier lists. For me, there’s Nurse, Blight… and then “the rest.”
  Within “the rest,” you can loosely group them into strong, decent, okay, meh, and sorry, but bad.

  But honestly, that all shifts constantly — depending on the map you get (huge factor), the RNG on that map, the team you’re up against, and what they bring to the table.
  So yup, you can make tier lists, and the killers that are consistently strong or work well on most maps will always end up near the top…

  …but in the end, that’s just a rough “what can you main and still have a good time” list — not a stable, absolute truth. Even weaker killers can suddenly shoot way up if they happen to get a map that plays to all their strengths.

  in YouTube's Killer Tier Lists Confuse me as Survivor Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• @Firellius said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979246#Comment_3979246

  whether it’s intentional or not, that doesn’t matter. It’s still a very small perspective that ignores the game as a whole. … Yeah, safe, safe, 100%. It’s my own small, narrow perspective. But honestly, I think it’s really dangerous to look at the game only as the “big picture.” Small perspectives matter. And I don’t mean that I think my little perspective is so important that I want to blow it up or that I want to be heard just because it’s me. No, what I mean is that many small perspectives are important — from all sides.

  You know what? That's fair. Sometimes stats don't paint the full picture.

  But it's also disingenuous to talk about this as though it's your perspective, or experience, or an evaluation of what actually happens in matches. Because it's not.

  It's conjecture. It's theorising about what might have been with matches that never were. This isn't something that's happening in the game, it's something that you are convinced will happen, despite there being no evidence of it.

  hw… yupp, sure — if the community does that alone, every voice individually, then ye, it starts looking like cherry-picking. But that’s exactly where the responsibility should shift to the devs. It’s not the community’s job to build the full picture. People are allowed to share their small, personal perspectives. It’s then BHVR’s job to take all of those small views and create a broader, balanced perspective from them. Not the community’s.

  And that's all well and good, but that also means that tainted perspectives need to be called out.

  Your opinion on these tactics will always be skewed by your extreme reliance on them. People who don't overly rely on it might have a clearer picture than you do. And that needs to be called out, too.

  The way BHVR handles it is what frustrates me the most: They just stare at certain stats or go by what the loudest voices are yelling — the screaming “majority” — instead of seriously reflecting and asking deeper questions.

  They really don't, they certainly pick who they listen to and don't just jump on the majority bandwagon. Often to the forums' chagrin, like sticking with the Clown changes, or refusing to killswitch Streetwise.

  But this 'seriously reflecting and asking deeper questions' also seems like a deflection, like a stalling tactic. If they come to a conclusion you don't like, you can always claim they 'didn't ask the deeper questions'.

  Maybe they did, and you just don't like the answer.

  I’ve shared a lot of perspectives from matches with you. You’re the one who’s basically implying that I can win withoutcamping, slugging, or tunneling. So tell me—how exactly?

  Firstly: I am not the person to tell you, I'm not some super-competent killer who can pick your games apart and tell you every exact trick or tip. I'm sure there's coaches out there that would be willing to give you a hand.

  Secondly: It is not my obligation to prove that these matches are winnable. YOU are the one positing a claim here, so the burden of proof lies with you. You need to prove that these matches are unwinnable.

  Thirdly, again: A match that includes camping, tunnelling and/or slugging cannot be used as a basis for arguments about how matches would go without these tactics. Every decision you make causes survivors to react, which in turn causes your decisions to change, which in turn causes survivors' reactions to change, resulting in a domino effect that ultimately massively changes the match's landscape.

  Take the Hag match for example. One thing that immediately springs to mind for me is that it takes you much longer to get your second down because two survivors are blocking you in order to try and take the heat off of her. They likely wouldn't be doing that if you weren't tunnelling, giving you access to quicker downs. Which in turn means you can rotate faster, which means Nicolas Cage is gonna get less free time on a gen.

  As @AmpersandUnderscore says, this isn't good pressure.

  Can you share the dev logs/streams about that? Like from 6.1 where they promised more than what came?

  This isn't something BHVR has said, but it's distilled from the general community sentiment in the lead-up to 6.1.

  I knew this would coming. That’s why I didn’t want to share it. But you started so hard with stats, and I said before: I’m ready to share everything. So here it is. I knew this would come up. :/ But.. but? BUT… maybe if we don’t just look at the kill rate, but at the why and the how? Maybe it’s not that we need more anti-everything measures… but maybe the gap between those who try everything to win and the “we’re just here for fun, memes, and whatever” crowd is huge.

  Doesn't fix your argument though.

  Firstly, it's a bit of a distraction tactic. Positing these questions of 'what if it's something else?' when it's very well possible that BHVR has already asked those questions as well and just reached a conclusion you don't like.

  Secondly, it's really hard to argue that tunnelling, camping and slugging aren't problems from a gameplay perspective. They make for really boring and frustrating matches, after all, and they've been complained about for as long as the game exists. That does suggest that there's something wrong with it.

  Thirdly, again, your stats don't help your argument. Because this idea of it just being the product of you trying your best and your opponents being more free-form can probably explain some of the disparity…

  But an 85% killrate is astronomically far out of bounds, and suggests that even if you DO come up against survivors that toss in everything and the kitchen sink in an effort to eke out a win, these tactics are so busted overpowered that you STILL demolish them.

  Keep in mind, even the high MMR 4-mans, which would eliminate the 'party pete weak link' factor that you're theorising about, don't hit 50% escape rates, and they don't make up this big of a gap.

  And that's all well and good, but that also means that tainted perspectives need to be called out.

  Your opinion on these tactics will always be skewed by your extreme reliance on them. People who don't overly rely on it might have a clearer picture than you do. And that needs to be called out, too.

  Y, but let’s be real — that tactic has proven to be the strongest, most efficient, and most reliable option available. And even then, it’s not a guaranteed win. It’s just the best shot you have in a game that’s stacked against the killer in coordinated settings.

  Its not just "my opinion" at this point:

  J

  That tactic has proven to be the strongest, most efficient, and most reliable option available. Just look at any comp game from the past few years — camping, slugging, and heavy tunneling are basically standard practice. It’s not even subtle anymore; that’s simply how killers stay competitive at that level. And all of this happens despite strict survivor perk limitations — no Dead Hard (or just one per team), no Decisive Strike, no Off The Record, shoulder, red syringes, no double Exhaustion perks, a limited map pool, and no medikits, flashys or BNP allowed.

  I mean, ye, we didn’t want to focus on comp games or the top tier stuff, only "the normal matches" but in these matches it’s clearly shown that this is the strongest tactic.

  They really don't, they certainly pick who they listen to and don't just jump on the majority bandwagon. Often to the forums' chagrin, like sticking with the Clown changes, or refusing to killswitch Streetwise.

  But this 'seriously reflecting and asking deeper questions' also seems like a deflection, like a stalling tactic. If they come to a conclusion you don't like, you can always claim they 'didn't ask the deeper questions'.

  Maybe they did, and you just don't like the answer.

  t’s not about who asks the “deeper questions,” but about the fact that certain patterns only become clear when you actually analyze matches properly. And there are plenty of recorded games that provide meaningful data for this — allowing you to ask: What options does the killer have in this situation? What about the survivor? Are the gens being done too slow or too fast? Are the chases too short or too close? Has the player ended up in a zone where they can’t do anything at all? And in the early game — when that really shouldn’t happen — are there areas with no resources available?

  I can open a Kill Your Friends lobby in 3-4 tries today with Window of Opportunity equipped, and my mate joins as Billy. After a few attempts, I’m pretty sure I’ll have a recorded game where there’s literally no useful resource nearby (yay, insta-downs thanks to RNG). Meanwhile, my mate rushes me down as lethal Billy.

  It’s not that hard to analyze rounds and situations and say: This is bad design and can’t be countered. Sure, both sides get stuck in uncounterable situations sometimes — that’s part of the game. But in the early game, which is always the most decisive phase, these things can be identified and addressed.

  I mean, the devs knowthe killers and their limits, the survivors and their limits, perks and their limits. They could easily realize — not by opinions, but by simple analysis and math — that some things are just flat-out broken.

  Take the Hag match for example. One thing that immediately springs to mind for me is that it takes you much longer to get your second down because two survivors are blocking you in order to try and take the heat off of her. They likely wouldn't be doing that if you weren't tunnelling, giving you access to quicker downs. Which in turn means you can rotate faster, which means Nicolas Cage is gonna get less free time on a gen.

  might have gotten the faster down in that specific situation. But on a macro level, an early 3v1 is exponentially more efficient than a slightly faster down on a fresh hook. You trade a few seconds’ advantage on that down for removing a player from the match much sooner, which slows the overall pace of the game significantly. A fresh hook means "nothing".

  and the team in this moment?

  the fresh hook surv is further away from the death hook, so the team feels less pressure — they know it’s their first hook. Everyone can freely push gens… they know they have some breathing room. No need for cover or accepting that we lost a player yet.

  Thirdly, again: A match that includes camping, tunnelling and/or slugging cannot be used as a basis for arguments about how matches would go without these tactics. Every decision you make causes survivors to react, which in turn causes your decisions to change, which in turn causes survivors' reactions to change, resulting in a domino effect that ultimately massively changes the match's landscape.

  You can often still win, of course. In many rounds, you could “slow down a bit.” Normal lobbies are just normal lobbies. But there’s always this expectation from survivors that the killer should “go in less hard” than they actually can… and for what, really? You can think, “Oh, super casual lobby, I’ll play chill early on” — only to still face all those ‘survivor fun’ perks that you can actually counter pretty well by applying strong early pressure.

  Sure, you can “slowly and friendly” pick apart some teams, but the moment you do something that those typical casual lobbies don’t like — even if it’s just coming back for a hook when someone blindly rushes to unhook right in front of you — the reaction (especially in casual lobbies) is exactly the same as if you went all-in right away.

  And honestly, what’s the point? I mean, you’re the killer, not a teammate. You pick and use the strongest tools you have, just like survivors do on their side.

  Sure, I’d rather just play my round normally and chill than constantly facepalm over what’s happening again and who’s feeling “totally unjoyed” this time. And if it’s not something really nasty from the killer kit like slugging or tunneling, there’s always some “evil” perk popping up that’s supposedly totally wrong and unfun.

  but all in all:

  but often you just have to.

  just play more M1 against better players, then you’ll see for yourself where the limits really are.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• @crogers271 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979217#Comment_3979217

  I was trying to take that whole idea off the table

  Okay then, I'll move onto the rest of the post.

  Survivor mistakes are exactly what you need. That’s how you win.

  For the sake of space I'll quote that part, but I'm referring to what leads up to it.

  You explain, pretty well, how a single mistake can doom the survivors while the killer can get into a mistake and still reposition and recover.

  Why is that a good game design?

  Compare this to one of your comments from the first page of this thread

  I want to play super bad, make tons of dumb mistakes, feed the killer early, misplay everything so that the killer even gets the chanceto snowball...

  ...but I still expect built-in comeback mechanics to save me from the consequences.

  Free of charge, handed out generously by BHVR.

  This was an exaggeration of a person's desire for a comeback mechanic into an over the top take on what they were asking.

  It doesn't create a lot of goodwill for reading your takes later in the thread.

  Back to the concept though, why is it good game design? Even if we say the killer should win more than they lose, which is its own argument, why should one side be so heavily penalized by a mistake while the other has opportunities to recover?

  So y, which changes do you mean exactly?

  Which ever ones you want to talk about.

  The goomba fallacy got brought up in the forum recently and being we're doing fallacies I'll throw that in. Lots of people have ideas on how to improve the survivor role, if you want to lump them all together then yes, it would probably make an unfair game. But not all of them are going to be done and no one is suggesting that all of them be done.

  Something like anti-slug could be too powerful, it probably won't be, but we won't know for certain until we actually see the design or, at a minimum, are discussing a specific suggestion.

  quick clarification to the quoted stuff :The quote wasn’t about smaller, isolated mistakes that a killer can quickly recover from by repositioning early and not committing to costly plays.

  Of course, in those 'I play super bad, make tons of mistakes' situations, get mindgamed, messed op to many loops, lost to many messing up my ability on top multiple times, yup I should lose 100% if the survivor team is decent — no question.

  I’m alone in my role. It’s on me. Survivors have it harder at that point. -

  not collapsing as a group and avoiding snowballing. They need to stay organized and focused — simply because they have to coordinate a bit.

  I only gotta keep only myself organized and focused.

  You explain, pretty well, how a single mistake can doom the survivors while the killer can get into a mistake and still reposition and recover.

  On survivor side, it’s not just one mistake. It’s a chain reaction of fails.

  One down is just one down, one hook just one hook.

  more stuff need to happen that a single hook snowballs into a real 'snowball moment

  It’s only when chaos breaks out and new mistakes escalate —unsafe unhooks, poor pathing around hooks, too-early unhooks when I’m clearly proxy camping, neglecting gens too soon, too many people rushing the unhook, no sense of when or how to trade if necassary —

  Compare this to one of your comments from the first page of this thread

  I want to play super bad, make tons of dumb mistakes, feed the killer early, misplay everything so that the killer even gets the chanceto snowball...

  ...but I still expect built-in comeback mechanics to save me from the consequences.

  Free of charge, handed out generously by BHVR.

  This was an exaggeration of a person's desire for a comeback mechanic into an over the top take on what they were asking.

  It doesn't create a lot of goodwill for reading your takes later in the thread.

  like I said, y. If you want to flip my comment to my side:

  as the killer, I should just as much lose if I play super bad, make tons of mistakes, and mess everything up. Sure. I don’t expect any comeback mechanics from BHVR if I fail to apply early pressure. I’m not asking for gens to suddenly slow down just because I’m struggling. I don’t expect to get a free Lightborn because some flashy safe denied my first hook even though three gens are already done. Or that my first hook in that situation gets automatically locked from sabotage attempts by survivors just because it’s the first hook and gens are already progressing. I’m not asking for comeback mechanics on the flip side. No.

  Back to the concept though, why is it good game design? Even if we say the killer should win more than they lose, which is its own argument, why should one side be so heavily penalized by a mistake while the other has opportunities to recover?

  y but you are playin a 4 vs 1. no 1vs1 . Thats it.

  The killer has to be the power role in this battle.

  A lost 50/50 for the killer just means repositioning, but for the survivor it’s an immediate costy hit. - 1 health stealth.

  Survivor mistakes have to be costly — not just to punish the individual who messed up, but to put real pressure on the entire team. That’s how asymmetry works. One player slipping up creates ripple effects, forcing the team into chaos and bad decisions.

  If survivor errors only hurt the player who made them, the rest of the team could just carry on, and the whole 4v1 tension falls apart. The killer’s strength lies in exploiting those chain reactions, breaking the team’s coordination.

  So making survivor mistakes costly isn’t about punishing one guy — it’s about maintaining that fragile, high-stakes dynamic where the killer’s pressure forces survivors to constantly adapt or crumble.

  In asymmetrical games like this, the killer needs more tolerance than the survivors. If killer mistakes were punished as harshly as survivor mistakes, the game would lose its balance: the killer wouldn’t be able to apply enough pressure, and the 4v1 dynamic would collapse. Asymmetry means uneven roles, and the killer needs to be the “power role” as a solo player—not just putting pressure on one person, but exerting control over the entire team.

  The goomba fallacy got brought up in the forum recently and being we're doing fallacies I'll throw that in. Lots of people have ideas on how to improve the survivor role, if you want to lump them all together then yes, it would probably make an unfair game. But not all of them are going to be done and no one is suggesting that all of them be done.

  Something like anti-slug could be too powerful, it probably won't be, but we won't know for certain until we actually see the design or, at a minimum, are discussing a specific suggestion.

  I know. It’s not about treating all suggestions as one big package — I’ve pushed back against individual ideas too.
  (And yeah, it’s just my opinion, other people can see it differently.)

  Everyone has different ideas and proposals. Some people will like one, others won’t. I’ve made suggestions myself — ones that don’t directly punish the killer.
  Not every suggestion has to be “anti-” something.

  And y, I’ll p keep pushing back against these “anti-killer” suggestions.

  Unless one comes along that genuinely convinces me — then sure, I’m open.

  But too many of them aim to strip away pressure tools, one by one.
  They slowly chip away at what makes the killer feel like a threat — until you’re just some presence on the map, not the danger you’re supposed to be.

  In my view, the killer should be the power role.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• @Firellius said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979069#Comment_3979069

  I had already checked for Lightborn earlier, so I knew I could greed the pallet, and one of the randoms was nearby in case I needed help.

  Alright, so what was the mistake that you got bailed out of, then?

  Because this all sounds like you had a plan and executed it, not like you made a mistake.

  Well… it’s not intentional.

  I’m just sharing what I can — my own small, humble perspective.

  Whether it's intentional or not doesn't matter. It's still a very small perspective that disregards the game at large.

  But the question I keep asking myself is: Why? What’s causing that?

  Is it really because we need all these anti-everything mechanics?

  Or is something else going on?

  What's causing what?

  It's not really a big mystery. Tunnelling, camping and slugging are bad for gameplay and they should get addressed. They're obstructive to game balance as well, as there's lot of things you can't do because of the impact it'll have on these tactics.

  I prefer looking at what actually happens in the matches.

  But that's leading to cherry-picking. Browsing through a vast collection of matches to pick out the handful that -might- support your point.

  That's what I mean with 'scope'. Three matches is a drop in the ocean, and is not representative of general gameplay. It won't push the needle if those three go from wins to losses, as there's thousands of matches per day.

  Why are we always pulling at the balance rope, always full focus on stats — instead of just watching what actually happens in matches?

  But you're not looking at what actually happens in matches.

  You're looking at what happens in a very select, hand-picked number of matches.

  That's not reflective of how the game actually plays out in general. That's cherry-picking.

  Yes, I said: flawless teams are unbeatable

  —

  but literally in the same breath, I also said: NO ONE IS FLAWLESS.

  But you are still treating them as one and the same. You have still not put forth any argument as to why the average team would be unbeatable without tunnelling, camping and slugging.

  You are happy to admit that even the best players in the world will make mistakes, but at the same time, you expect to pass the notion that these will be identical in outcome to teams that make no mistakes.

  I don't think you understand how extreme of a claim it is to say that something is 'unbeatable'. To claim that killers will be left 'standing there, watching them escape'.

  Now tell me — how are these supposed to go if you take away my tools?

  YOU are supposed to figure that out. YOU are the one making the claim that you -know- how these will turn out. But there's no evidence to support that, other than your conjecture. You just assume that you will lose. You don't look into things you could've done differently, you don't look into all the tools you still have at your disposal even when you don't camp, tunnel and slug.

  You just take a situation where one of those tools helped you win a match and go 'well, now it's unwinnable', when you don't know that at all.

  You're just building up hypothetical scenarios that assume everything goes exactly as you planned it out.

  It's like… (Not paraphrasing, just using an example)

  'Well I was tunnelling this match and two people got out, so if I hadn't tunnelled, it would've been a 4E!'

  Or perhaps if you hadn't doubled back to the hook at a certain point, you could've pushed someone off a gen and that generator would never have gotten done, swinging things to a 4K.

  You get what I mean? Using matches in which tunnelling, camping and slugging were used immediately invalidates them as proof of what happens when you -don't- tunnel, camp and slug.

  You can't prove what happens without a certain factor by pointing to things that happen with that factor.

  Me standing outside, in the rain, with a pink bucket on my head does not prove that the absence of said pink bucket would make it stop raining.

  Wait, but they did happen?

  Already addressed it: They didn't. Anti-tunnel got a counterweight nerf, and we got no anti-camp (it's anti-facecamp, not anti-camp), and no anti-slug.

  The closest thing we've gotten to anything to deal with this issue is +10 seconds on hook timers.

  Which is compensatory for the +10 seconds on generators being a direct buff to tunnelling and camping, so it's returning to the status quo after having spent a long time in a nerfed state.

  These issues have not been addressed. They've been dragging their feet but can't afford to any longer.

  Since stats seem so important to you — oky, ouuf, here you go:

  Wow.

  These stats are -painful-.

  First off, I hope you understand how difficult it is for anyone to take seriously an argument of 'I'll never be able to win again' from someone with an EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT kill rate, right?

  But secondly, this also makes these tactics look horrendous for game balance. If relying on them slingshots you to the single most busted killrate in the game's entire history, then surely we can agree that these things -desperately- need to be nerfed, right?

  I mean, I'm pretty sure that's a higher killrate than the CoBRuption meta used to have.

  Survivor groups rarely play anywhere near their full potential.

  Yes.

  This also goes for killers, though.

  And that part is consistently glossed over.

  Whether it's intentional or not doesn't matter. It's still a very small perspective that disregards the game at large.

  whether it’s intentional or not, that doesn’t matter. It’s still a very small perspective that ignores the game as a whole. … Yeah, safe, safe, 100%. It’s my own small, narrow perspective. But honestly, I think it’s really dangerous to look at the game only as the “big picture.” Small perspectives matter. And I don’t mean that I think my little perspective is so important that I want to blow it up or that I want to be heard just because it’s me. No, what I mean is that many small perspectives are important — from all sides.If we always only look at the big picture, then all we get are stats. Numbers. Without asking: what’s actually happening? And how does that really come about?Otherwise, it always ends up like the stuff we keep seeing — where BHVR looks only at the “big picture” and ignores the small perspectives. They change something based on stats or numbers that nobody asked for. Things nobody wanted come in. Stuff gets changed that didn’t need to be changed. And things that really need changes get left alone.All because the focus is always exclusively on stats and numbers and never beyond that...

  (only my opinion)

  It's not really a big mystery. Tunnelling, camping and slugging are bad for gameplay and they should get addressed. They're obstructive to game balance as well, as there's lot of things you can't do because of the impact it'll have on these tactics.

  uwm.. … I know some people don’t like it. I know. I’m doing it anyway.
  I can’t just shut it off — doing things where I’m like:
  “sorry, but this just has to happen right now.”
  Give me more ways to play

  But that's leading to cherry-picking. Browsing through a vast collection of matches to pick out the handful that -might- support your point.

  That's what I mean with 'scope'. Three matches is a drop in the ocean, and is not representative of general gameplay. It won't push the needle if those three go from wins to losses, as there's thousands of matches per day.

  hw… yupp, sure — if the community does that alone, every voice individually, then ye, it starts looking like cherry-picking. But that’s exactly where the responsibility should shift to the devs. It’s not the community’s job to build the full picture. People are allowed to share their small, personal perspectives. It’s then BHVR’s job to take all of those small views and create a broader, balanced perspective from them. Not the community’s.

  As soon as the community tries to do that, it always ends in cherry-picking. Yeah, it’s a more complicated and time-consuming process for the devs — but honestly, I think it’s a way healthier approach than just: “We looked at the stats and changed something.”

  The way BHVR handles it is what frustrates me the most: They just stare at certain stats or go by what the loudest voices are yelling — the screaming “majority” — instead of seriously reflecting and asking deeper questions.

  It’s always the loudest, the biggest, or the most inconvenient opinions that get the reaction. And then they rush something out — like we’ve seen with so many killers, or now with the Fog stuff. BHVR often refuses to take a deeper look at what’s actually happening in the game itself. Sure, that takes a lot of work, especially evaluating all these different perspectives — but it’s necessary.

  But you are still treating them as one and the same. You have still not put forth any argument as to why the average team would be unbeatable without tunnelling, camping and slugging.You are happy to admit that even the best players in the world will make mistakes, but at the same time, you expect to pass the notion that these will be identical in outcome to teams that make no mistakes.I don't think you understand how extreme of a claim it is to say that something is 'unbeatable'. To claim that killers will be left 'standing there, watching them escape

  I’ve shared a lot of perspectives from matches with you. You’re the one who’s basically implying that I can win without camping, slugging, or tunneling. So tell me—how exactly? Like, take the Trapper match for example: how do I play better without camping or tunneling? Or what about that Sadako match? (wasn´t even a win there, was a draw) And please don’t say, “Just leave and pray they mess up hard...” I’m serious, tell me how to play differently and win without those tactics. Not “Yup, 1-2 kills are enough.” — when I go in, I’m playing for the 4K. (Survivors also hit ready with the intention to win, not with the mindset of “2 escapes are enough.”)

  YOU are supposed to figure that out. YOU are the one making the claim that you -know- how these will turn out. But there's no evidence to support that, other than your conjecture. You just assume that you will lose. You don't look into things you could've done differently, you don't look into all the tools you still have at your disposal even when you don't camp, tunnel and slug.

  You just take a situation where one of those tools helped you win a match and go 'well, now it's unwinnable', when you don't know that at all.

  You're just building up hypothetical scenarios that assume everything goes exactly as you planned it out.

  It's like… (Not paraphrasing, just using an example)

  'Well I was tunnelling this match and two people got out, so if I hadn't tunnelled, it would've been a 4E!'

  Or perhaps if you hadn't doubled back to the hook at a certain point, you could've pushed someone off a gen and that generator would never have gotten done, swinging things to a 4K.

  You get what I mean? Using matches in which tunnelling, camping and slugging were used immediately invalidates them as proof of what happens when you -don't- tunnel, camp and slug.

  You can't prove what happens without a certain factor by pointing to things that happen with that factor.

  Me standing outside, in the rain, with a pink bucket on my head does not prove that the absence of said pink bucket would make it stop raining.

  ye, because it’s not that hard to analyze a round, like that Sadako match for example: The first flashy safe was risky, but how was I supposed to avoid it? Slugging? Okay, that costs time. They probably wouldn’t try to unhook, and the person nearby would just bodyblock or pallet-stun. I had to risk going for the unhook.

  And the chase they gave me after that wasn’t that long—almost 3 gen done. That’s normal when people play efficiently. That’s just how it is at high MMR

  So then what? How do I continue without tunneling onMarigold?

  You can break down the same stuff for the Trapper match. How do I play it differently? Please tell me. Should I just give up the slug and the hook at the same time? Then what?

  lready addressed it: They didn't. Anti-tunnel got a counterweight nerf, and we got no anti-camp (it's anti-facecamp, not anti-camp), and no anti-slug.

  The closest thing we've gotten to anything to deal with this issue is +10 seconds on hook timers.

  Which is compensatory for the +10 seconds on generators being a direct buff to tunnelling and camping, so it's returning to the status quo after having spent a long time in a nerfed state.

  These issues have not been addressed. They've been dragging their feet but can't afford to any longer.

  Can you share the dev logs/streams about that? Like from 6.1 where they promised more than what came?

  https://youtu.be/TYG1ssGUWQQ

  This is the only thing I have. Nothing about ‘more things’ that we haven’t already received

  Wow.

  These stats are -painful-.

  First off, I hope you understand how difficult it is for anyone to take seriously an argument of 'I'll never be able to win again' from someone with an EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT kill rate, right?

  But secondly, this also makes these tactics look horrendous for game balance. If relying on them slingshots you to the single most busted killrate in the game's entire history, then surely we can agree that these things -desperately- need to be nerfed, right?

  I mean, I'm pretty sure that's a higher killrate than the CoBRuption meta used to have.

  I knew this would coming. That’s why I didn’t want to share it. But you started so hard with stats, and I said before: I’m ready to share everything. So here it is. I knew this would come up. :/ But.. but? BUT… maybe if we don’t just look at the kill rate, but at the why and the how? Maybe it’s not that we need more anti-everything measures… but maybe the gap between those who try everything to win and the “we’re just here for fun, memes, and whatever” crowd is huge. And the people who play efficiently will always dominate the “just wanna have fun” folks — no matter the side. Because efficiency usually wins. And as a killer, you’re solo with the mindset “all in, no matter what.” Survivors need four people to come together with that same mindset to really push for the win.

  And DBD is kind of a big exception compared to all the other PvP games I play (Hunt, Tarkov, etc.)… because in those, a lot of people — seriously, a huge number — never go in with that ‘I want to 100% win with everything I’ve got’ mindset. In DBD, though, people tend to play more laid-back, chill, . .

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• @crogers271 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978928#Comment_3978928

  So how its a motte-and-bailey fallacy:

  You're motte, you're easily defended position is this:

  But yup, I’ll say it too: It’s physically impossible to win if the survivor team plays perfectly. Zero mistakes. But… nobody does that. No one. Not even Team Eternal, since you brought them up as an example. Too much happens in a single match, and people are human. Humans make mistakes.

  This is easily defendable because it gets into what is perfect play and what are mistakes. As you bring up, this never happens. It's a hypothetical framework. Now we could get into whether it is correct or not, but its an academic question.

  Now how the argument starts to drift

  And that’s exactly where killer have their chance — they have stronger tools to capitalize on mistakes.I’m totally fine admitting that if a survivor team plays 100%perfect, , I’ve got no shot.

  You're saying you are okay with something happening that never will. Every player regardless of role will make mistakes. The idea that the killer is capitalizing on survivor mistakes is also a bit iffy, if the survivors take the killer on a long chase is it because the survivor was good or did the killer made a mistake?

  And then we get to the Bailey, the more controversial position arguing against something.

  If these upcoming changes really go through — where killers can’t tunnel, camp, or slug effectively anymore, and they don’t get anything in return — then killers will be powerless.And we’ll be forced to just sit there and watch even "mediocre, average teams" escape. Maybe hope for 1–2 kills at best.

  What changes? You're arguing against something that hasn't been specified. @Firellius points this out on the anti-camp being anti-face camp. The changes BHVR have made have had only minor impacts on the killer role and instead stopped the most extreme of certain elements. 3 genning is still a part of killer strategy, camping is still part of killer strategy, there's no reason to think that these changes are going to make it so killers "can't" do things like tunnel or slug.

  On top of that, you're jumping over so many possibilities from the motte to the bailey of making it impossible to win. The changes could be anywhere from no impact, to killers just as strong just need to adjust playstyle, to slightly harder, to generally harder, to much harder, etc.

  You go from impossibility (beating a perfect team) to impossibility (beating even average teams)., but the starting place doesn't actually back up the conclusion.

  Ok.. i understand what u mean, but:

  Just to clarify one thing up front:
  The "perfect survivor team" scenario wasn’t something I brought in to support my argument or strengthen my own position. That example was introduced by someone else — not me — when they mentioned (multiple times) the top 1% teams like Team Eternal.

  My response wasn’t meant to say “see, this proves my point,” but actually the opposite: I was trying to take that whole idea off the table. My point was that this kind of perfection doesn’t exist, and that we shouldn’t base balance discussions around it. It’s not a realistic standard — and I was hoping to move away from that kind of framing, not use it for leverage.

  Now how the argument starts to drift

  That's exactly why I feel misunderstood at that point… because that was never MY argument. I never brought that up — someone else did. I was just responding to it, and more in a way where I was kinda distancing myself from it rather than agreeing with it.

  You're saying you are okay with something happening that never will. Every player regardless of role will make mistakes. The idea that the killer is capitalizing on survivor mistakes is also a bit iffy, if the survivors take the killer on a long chase is it because the survivor was good or did the killer made a mistake?

  And then we get to the Bailey, the more controversial position arguing against something.

  Ok. From that point on, I’m with you. That was a statement I made — that one’s on me. But of course the killer does not only react to survivor mistakes. That’s nah..

  The example you're giving also needs some nuance. If a survivor keeps me in a long loop, that's usually on me — in most cases.

  1. I failed to recognize dangerous RNG early enough from a distance and committed to something that’s now costing me hard.
  2. I took a loop I know how to play properly, but messed it up. That’s on me. Misplayed — my bad.
  3. I couldn’t see that right next to the loop I thought I could win, there’s an OP jungle gym into another OP jungle gym chain. I couldn’t have known. Not my bad, just bad RNG — unlucky. Nothing I can do, just gotta deal with it. Costy again.

  /Same way survivors sometimes just have to accept they spawned into a dead zone. Nothing they can do either. It’s just one of those ‘unlucky’ situations

  so um…

  1. If my macro at that point sucks — that’s on me.
  2. Still on me.
  3. You *!xs!!"xsxs! game... better maps and RNG fix when?

  And this is where that point really comes into play.:

  The idea that the killer is capitalizing on survivor mistakes is also a bit iffy,

  ...I never said: ONLY. But the moment survivors make mistakes, I, as killer, benefit from that — a lot.
  Look: the moment I misjudge something, like taking a chase that ends up being too costly, or making mistakes during that chase... for me, that just means: reposition and move on.
  Sure, if I don’t recognize it early enough and stay in that situation too long, the next mistake kicks in. And stacking too many of those — that’s how you lose the match.
  But if I do catch it early, then as killer, it just means: reposition and try again.

  The moment when a survivor makes a mistake that leads to a down, I can capitalize on that way more than survivors can on my mistakes.

  For me, overcommitting or misjudging a chase usually just means repositioning and trying again.

  on the other side: for survivors, one bad read or a mistimed vault can already mean a hook state, pressure on the team, and a major shift in momentum. It’s not just “reset and move on” — it’s a whole new problem, cuz.. that turns into a team-wide problem now.

  The moment this point is reached, it gets super costy now — that’s when the killer really starts to maximize profit from the situation. If they capitalize on it.

  That’s what I meant by the killer capitalizing on survivor mistakes. Many groups give you plenty of those opportunities, and every mistake after that — bad pathing, unsafe unhooks, whatever — just adds to the survivors’ problems and costs them dearly.

  A mistake by one of the 25% usually drags the whole team down and often causes a bunch of new mistakes on the survivors’ side. And suddenly, the whole team isn’t playing at 100% anymore

  At that point, I as killer get the unfair leverage to put not just one, but the whole team under pressure

  Survivor mistakes are exactly what you need. That’s how you win.

  That’s why I’m not a big fan of these ‘stats’ or making balance decisions based on them as long we dont see a better mmr. Because one mistake from survivors often leads to so many more mistakes that can quickly crumble the whole game for the survivor team. And most of those are totally avoidable in many cases.

  But that’s exactly how it goes in a lot of matches.

  Thing is, DBD has a huge playerbase that doesn’t see it as a real PvP game, more like a chill, casual ‘after-work’ thing — a few skill checks here and there, some fun with friends on voice chat. Because of that, survivors end up stacking a snowball of mistakes… and yeah, they often get mad when they run into a killer who’s actually serious, playing properly, and punishing every little opening they give

  kill rates are high cuz of this ..

  Huh? Different? There’s been a bunch of stuff thrown around in this thread that I’ve already argued against (even quoted some of it a few comments back). Some say survivors need more buffs and a shift to a 50/50 meta, others want more comeback mechanics, and then there’s the usual “slugging, camping, tunneling are the real evil bad problem” ...
  So yea, I’ve pushed back on a lot of these points already. Not sure what exactly you’re referring to though—care to clarify?

  

  or do you mean my general point where I cautiously voiced some criticism (about things coming with phase 2), while the discussion — which somehow almost always pops up in a bunch of different topics — suggested that tunneling is actually the root problem? Also, are you talking about my last disussion with Croger?

  So y, which changes do you mean exactly? The ones that are pretty much guaranteed to come from BHVR, or the “fictional” (out-of-some-post-here) suggestions I’ve been trying to argue spezific against from a killer perspective?

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• @AmpersandUnderscore said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978903#Comment_3978903

  I'm just briefly going to respond to this part:

  Mind showing me how you win against people who kind of understand the game — without using any pressure tools whatsoever?

  So, your falling into this "modern, 2025 dbd killer" mindset here, where you seem to think the only possible way to apply pressure is by either camping, tunneling, or slugging, and that somehow there are no other options.

  That's just not the case.

  "Pressure" is basically just giving the survivors something to do, so that they can't just do what they want to do (gens). For slugging, people seem to understand this, since the slug requires someone to come and rescue and, generally speaking, the killer isn't just standing over the slug doing nothing. In most "legitimate slugging" scenarios, the killer leaves the slug and chases another nearby survivor. And the slug is "pressure".

  But for some reason people mistakenly think that camping and tunneling are also optimal pressure. It's pressure on one person, yes, but not on the team. The camping or tunneling killer isn't leaving the survivor in time out on a hook and going to push someone off gens, they're standing around doing effectively nothing and hoping that the survivor team is either uncoordinated or inexperienced and panics.

  Some teams, though, will let the killer stand around doing nothing near the hook and power through gens unhindered. And they can do that because all of the pressure in a camping or tunneling scenario is all on one person. The game becomes a race to see if survivors can finish 3 or 4 gens before the killer gets 3 hooks to eliminate someone.

  Even if you completely removed camping, tunneling, and slugging from the game entirely (which I highly doubt that the phase 2 anti- features will come even close to that), you can still leave the hook, and chase someone off of a gen.

  This is generally called "map pressure". You have one in chase, one in hook, and one going for rescue. And if you get a second down quickly enough, then all gen progress stops while the survivors try to recover.

  The fact that this was how people used to play before 6.1, and is now something that people don't even think of (like your comment) tells me just how much the player mindset has changed over time.

  But for some reason people mistakenly think that camping and tunneling are also optimal pressure. It's pressure on one person, yes, but not on the team. The camping or tunneling killer isn't leaving the survivor in time out on a hook and going to push someone off gens, they're standing around doing effectively nothing and hoping that the survivor team is either uncoordinated or inexperienced and panics.

  Are you talking about the matches I shared?
  Which specific situation are you referring to?

  Do you mean the Trapper match when you say “standing around”?
  The one where the slug was near hook?

  Leave the hook and the slug? For what, exactly?
  A free unhook and a free pickup — just to kick a gen once — all while letting the full team reset?

  That would've been a guaranteed loss.

  or how do you see the chance to turn this into a win?

  And how exactly are you supposed to win without using any of those pressure tools?Genuinely open to improvement tips here.

  and..

  Sure, things were different back then.
  The answer used to always be: "Just chase someone else."
  That used to work really well.

  But that strategy basically died with the introduction of MMR.

  Yea, MMR doesn’t work perfectly — not even close. It’s not as strict or accurate as it would need to be (that’s what I talked about in my previous post),
  but it does make sure that you don’t get the same kind of lobbies we had back in the day anymore.

  Like, those full-on 100-hour-lobbies from the old days? Those are pretty much gone.

  MMR isn’t great at separating casuals, stealth players, PvE-focused players, etc...
  But it does broadly prevent completely new players (like under 1000h people, the true newbies) from ending up in your lobbies.

  So in that sense, they now have their own little "protected bubble" — something that just didn’t exist at all back then.

  But all in all, this is really only indirectly about slugging, tunneling, or staying close — it’s more about the point of how much these tools actually keep a lot things stable

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• Oh, I know you were. But none of the stuff you're thinking of actually has anything to do with bailing you out of your mistakes, and they all have to do with counteracting something that is entirely within the killer's control.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7YuLUWOq7o

  is entirely within the killer's control.

  fight back?

  Sure, slugging could’ve been an option — but I would've just ended up lying under the pallet.
  I had already checked for Lightborn earlier, so I knew I could greed the pallet, and one of the randoms was nearby in case I needed help.

  (Could’ve played way more efficiently and just pre-dropped the pallet, but nah, gotta be greedy as always)

  Or were you thinking of chasing my duo partner? He mains there. You're not catching him that easily, even injured.

  The time that buys is enough for me to get back up.

  Yuh, you could try baiting and then doubling back, hoping to get a quick down on the random out in the open — but the pallet’s still up.

  → And if I do get away: ou’ve already lost two gens.

  But y, I know the killer knows that too.
  And we both know: I’m not getting out this game.

  So at that point, my job’s just to buy as much time as I can for the team.
  This round, I’m the one who’s gotta go. It is what it is.

  (And I know you know that I’m about to say this.
  I think you might be living in my head a little at this point :D)

  Yes, you have. Again, you are grasping at anecdotes, cherry-picking a small handful while ignoring the overarching datasets. The last time BHVR released stats, they were absolutely dire, with the top 5 killrates, both in all MMR and isolated high MMR ALL being 65%+. The highest average escape rates were for 4-man swiffers in high MMR, and they only got to 48%, with the overall high MMR escape rate being 42%.

  You getting a handful of higher escape rate folks on the line doesn't change the overall reality that survivors are losing far more than they are winning.

  Well… it’s not intentional.
  I’m just sharing what I can — my own small, humble perspective.

  It’s not like I’m deliberately cherry-picking a few examples.
  I’m just trying to look at things from a different angle, beyond just raw stats.
  (My stats are way too high anyway, I know that.)

  But the question I keep asking myself is: Why?
  What’s causing that?
  Is it really because we need all these anti-everything mechanics?
  Or is something else going on?

  I just don’t like looking at statistics all that much —
  I prefer looking at what actually happens in the matches.

  I already tried to explain that on page 2...
  (here’s my short “intro” to it)

  for me: I know where the survivor role struggles. I do.

  DBD has changed a lot. The devs are pushing it hard into a direction where it’s actually a true 4v1.
  No more 1v1s, no more “2 people carry and the rest do whatever.”
  Sure, you still get those matches – bad MMR, new killers, killers playing super soft – but once the killer actually understands their role and plays somewhat seriously, DBD turns into a proper 4 vs 1 against a lot of killers.

  It’s 25 + 25 + 25 + 25 vs 100.And BHVR keeps balancing the game more and more to make that scale work.

  and on the way to that goal, a lot of survivor groups fall apart.

  Why? Because the killer just has the more stable position at that point.
  Ye, it sucks being solo as killer sometimes – but at least you can fully control your own 100%.
  As survivor, you only ever control your own 25%. And that’s where the problem lies.

  I’ve played since release, both sides, and .. um.. honestly – for me (only for me, only my option, only my pov) : I know why groups break.
  I also know I’ve got a super high kill rate (way, way way above 60%, which ye, is kind of dumb),
  but that’s exactly why I don’t really care about stats.

  
  What matters is for me is what actually happens during the match.

  And most of the time, survivor teams don’t bring their full 100%.

  Most groups have at least one person who’s already a -25 from the start.
  Sometimes it’s two people, and the team is basically starting at -50%.
  Like that one Huntress match I had where two survivors went for some random sabo plays right at the start – and they weren’t even good at it.
  So I’m playing 100 vs 50 before I even get warmed up.

  But you probably have an idea where this post of mine from page 2. in this thread is going:
  I see things differently on this topic than most others

  That said, it’s hard for me to change my opinion without also checking out perspectives from other rounds,
  where I can analyze stuff like:
  When did things start going downhill, and at what point did this group break?

  For me, it’s not really about anti-slug, anti-camp, anti-tunnel, or anti-killer stuff (not at all). "lookin at the stats and after those numbers we have to balance everything stuff..

  It’s mostly about the crappy matchmaking we have, which in very rare cases actually ensures that every survivor can deliver their 25%.

  Not because they don’t have the tools for it — in most cases they do — but because they often simply lack the experience. They just dont know how to use them.

  I mean, yes, maps have gotten worse. Insta-downs happen, even to good groups.
  But how the group handles it, and how quickly they break from it — that mostly comes down to way more mistakes on the survivor side.

  And if 1 or 2 players are overwhelmed by the killer they got, it always ends up with the killer playing at full strength against a team that’s basically half weakened.

  This doesn't fix your problem. You're still leveraging the idea of the immaculate survivor team being unbeatable to try and argue that the average joe can't be bested without tunnelling, camping and slugging.

  If anything, it worsens your argument, because you have to admit that you're going off into the hypothetical, meaning you have even less ground to stand on.

  This claim that killers will be 'forced to just sit there and watch even mediocre teams escape' is based on absolutely nothing, and goes against all statistical indicators. Worse, it has already been effectively disproven by a number of content creators.

  Why do you always twist my words like 500%?
  Do you even read what I’m writing?
  I’ve already addressed this.

  Yes, I said: flawless teams are unbeatable —
  but literally in the same breath, I also said: NO ONE IS FLAWLESS.
  (And I even quoted myself in my last reply, where I pointed that out — including how the “Team Eternal” example you brought up isn’t flawless either.)

  These flawless teams don’t exist.
  We’re not machines. We’re human. And humans make mistakes. Everyone does. Even the best.
  Perfect groups don’t exist. That’s just a fact.
  And I’ve never claimed otherwise.

  You brought up the top 4% and Team Eternal.
  All I said was: those are also just people who make mistakes — and killers can always capitalize on that. That was simply my counter to your claim that I keep talking about top 1% teams.
  Which I don’t.

  Not because I’m scared of those groups —
  but because they aren’t the standard. They’re not the norm.

  Standard matches look more like the POVs I’ve been sharing.
  And yes — POVs do matter, because they let you analyze what actually happens in a match.

  Most groups have one or two players who just can’t perform at full capacity against a given killer.
  (Like the Michaela who runs straight into me near hook, gives me a free down, and just stays there…
  Or the David who chases me instead of doing a gen.)

  And no — this isn’t about saying players should be flawless.
  People make mistakes. On both sides.
  That’s human. It’s natural.

  But when a match spirals out of control, it’s never because of just one thing. It’s a lot of little things adding up:

  • Two people don’t go for the unhook in time.
  • No one trades early.
  • Michaela stays on the ground instead of crawling away, letting me bodyblock and keep the hook.

  And look at how close these matches are.
  Now tell me — how are these supposed to go if you take away my tools?

  Even with these major survivor mistakes happening, if I didn’t use camp, tunnel, or slug, I’d have zero pressure.
  Where is it supposed to come from?
  Tell me how I’m supposed to play it “better.”

  That’s why I kept asking:
  What happens in matches where those big survivor mistakes don’t happen?
  And I’m not allowed to do anything?

  Those teams would get out — because of their own mistakes —
  if I weren’t allowed to do the stuff you don’t like.

  Why are we always pulling at the balance rope,
  always full focus on stats —
  instead of just watching what actually happens in matches?

  And for me, the answer always, always, always leads back to one thing: matchmaking.

  As long as we keep messing with balance back and forth,
  and only stare at stats instead of asking why things happen in the actual rounds,
  it’s never going to change.

  You feeling sorry for yourself is not grounds to leave everyone else stuck in the muck. Survivor gameplay is in a dire state and it needs help. This particular problem, of camping, tunnelling and slugging, has been rotting at the game's core for ages now, even hindering killers, and it just kept getting kicked further and further down the road.

  Wait, but they did happen?
  The changes that were promised with 6.1 were never delayed — they were actually patched into the game relatively quickly back then
  All the promised changes have already been implemented:

  Free BT has been in the game for ages,
  and the anti-camp radius too.
  These changes have been live for a while — they’re already in the game.

  steer the game's overall design with it.

  as u do too?

  You're allowed to think you can't do anything against Joe Schmoe without tunnelling and camping and slugging, but I'm, in turn, allowed to disabuse you of that notion.

  Absolutely, always open! Share your POV, share your matches — I’m more than happy to go over every single situation where a match starts to fall apart and analyze it together. Always open for that, always, seriously.

  Something more than conjecture. Run it, try it, get stats, expand scope, put in the work. Don't just play a match and cross your arms in a huff when things don't immediately go your way. You need scale to make the kind of point that you're making, and that's not gonna work off a small handful of matches with one or two killer players.

  Since stats seem so important to you — oky, ouuf, here you go:

  

  But what’s the point of all these stats if we can already see and experience in so many matches why these stats come together — and most of the time, the answer to everything is: the MMR is bad.

  Survivor groups rarely play anywhere near their full potential. A lot of people treat this game like "a bit of TeamSpeak, some skill checks, and time with friends" — meanwhile, the killer is going all-in. People make major mistakes because they’re overwhelmed and didn’t belong in that lobby to begin with.

  In so many of my matches, I can honestly blame MMR. And on some maps, it’s just downright miserable for survivors — dead zones into nothing, into maybe one strong structure, into nothing again...?

  But most of the time, when I ask myself why things go the way they do (just from my perspective), it all comes down to bad MMR and RNG/maps. Not "survivors need way more buffs" or "killers shouldn’t be allowed to...

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 7, 2025

• @Raccoon said:

  I just see the same collection of users, usually with private profiles (you can still see their previous posts with Google/etc), stirring drama on a continuous basis.

  Conversations rarely include any nuance/knowledge, just statements like 'Devs are X sided,' 'that is what a Y main would say,' 'Z mains win again,' etc.

  The downvote system usually buries any useful topics/commentary as such topics usually get bombarded with a strangely similar number of downvotes after being posted.

  At the very least, the downvote system needs to go, imo, as certain topics seem to be brigaded into obscurity regardless of post count.

  Alright, let the epic Us vs. Them showdown begin!

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=entSHjPDWYU

  in So much 'Us vs Them' these days... Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Chilli_man2400 said:

  on Scott Junds comments and other peoples channels when streetwise was not being killswitched, everyone said BHVR doesn’t care about killers and survivors make up most of the playerbase so that’s why they never nerf survivors.
  

  Hmm how strange fog vials got nerfed almost a week later. Meanwhile clown can go braindead mode and kill everyone with super speed?
  

  But wait a second I thought killers only get nerfed there not allowed to have strong things??
  

  Is anyone going to acknowledge this or are we going to memory hole this to fuel this agenda??

  On both killer and survivor sides, things are always "tweaked" after they come into the game. Killers often get nerfs, perks get adjusted, killer addons changed — and yes, sometimes items get hit too. This isn’t about favoring one side; it’s just the nature of the process because during PTB testing you can’t catch everything in detail before release. So changes after launch are inevitable and necessary to maintain balance.
  It’s just the nature of things that stuff will likely be changed again after recently receiving major updates or when bigger new content comes out.

  in How strange? Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @dark_hunter92 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978472#Comment_3978472

  What do you mean "People complain about aura reading?" Why wouldn't we complain about how much aura reading killers have? Do you think I always want to be found and not be able to mind game? It's basically a wall hack.

  It's pretty bold of you to say that considering killers were complaining soooo much about a little fog vial that blocks out their precious little auras and scratch marks for a whole whopping 2 seconds 😂😂 talk about big oofs

  I'm not saying killers can't have fun, but where's the challenge if everything is handed to them for the easiest of conditions.

  oh cool, kicked a generator, guess I can see all survivors within my range which happens to be like almost half the map. (obviously sarcasim)

  And you obviously didn't read my post if you think I'm using the term 'infinitely' the way you're presenting. Are you still in school? Maybe touch up on your reading comprehension? I don't know.

  I previously stated:

  BNP - used once, removes 10% of progress. Sure, it's permanent but can easily be reverted back to 0.
  
  Syringe, used once, consumes the med-kit
  
  BT can be removed by hitting twice, which for most killers, is pretty easy.
  

  So in the context of:

  Nurses - used infinitely, not even a cooldown
  
  Killer instinct - used infinitely, also makes the surv not be able to detect terror radius (But no hand holding right?)
  
  Awakened Awareness - used infinitely, no cooldown
  
  BBQ - don't even have to explain myself
  
  Bitter Murmur - used infinitely, for basically free.
  

  Means I was using it in that these perks don't disable after being used. You can use them perpetually during the whole duration of the map.

  And I hate hearing these terms like "meme builds," like it literally means you're trying to troll for the shear enjoyment of making the other side rage. I'm guessing you play with toxicity in your vains, eh?

  No, toxicity wasn’t my intention. I just couldn’t help but laugh really hard and found it super cute. Because you can really tell how little (let me guess — like, seriously not much?) you’ve played killer yourself to actually understand how limited those perks are.

  It’s basically a very limited “wallhack” that lasts a few seconds at most, and you sacrifice perk slots for it — slots that could be used for way stronger perks.

  Are these just conditions to get a quick glimpse of someone’s position? Sure. But have you ever won a chase with it? Achieved anything? Nope.

  I even agree with you on Nurse ( not the perk, the killer) — I give you that point. But Nurse is Nurse: that group usually dies anyway, with or without aura. And there are stronger perks you can bring on Nurse anyway.

  Every other killer? You get the position for a few seconds… did that win you a chase? Did you gain anything? No.

  You’re talking about Nowhere to Hide at the start. Come on. Just expect the killer to have that perk. Don’t hide behind some random rock, position yourself at a loop you can actually work with.

  And if you know for sure the killer has that perk, use that info against them. You know they’ll want to kick that gen. So use that time to create pure distance — a huge gap the killer now has to close if they want to keep chasing you.

  Nurse’s Calling? I haven’t seen that perk in over a year. Literally no one uses it. Why? Because it’s just bad.

  Good players don’t heal inside the terror radius anyway. And killers with good headphones can already hear the healing progress in the range where Nurse’s Calling would even matter.

  Awakened Awareness — nobody really plays that unless they’re doing adept. What do you get out of it? You’re carrying someone and see their aura… great. You slug them? But the survivor sees that too… so then what? Chase the survivor who already has a huge distance? Or the survivor you just took off your shoulder, trying to wiggle free?

  Or do you just leave the person slugged and look for a completely new target so they can crawl into a safe reposition spot where they’re 100% wiggle-free, get picked up by a teammate… and while you’re thinking all this, a skilled survivor notices you’re slugging and moves in for a safe rescue, while the downed person crawles into a pallet.

  What did you actually gain?

  BBQ… what for? So you can see an aura somewhere on the other side of the map? And then what? By the time you get there, whatever.

  Sure, it can be fun with Billy, Blight, and other high mobility killers. But usually, you have enough game sense to roughly know which gens the survivors are working on.

  I already explained the counter to you above.

  Bitter Murmur — yeah great, you’re in a chase, a gen get s dne, and you see the auras of the people there. Cool, so what now? The gen is already finishes... You already know they’re there. And then what? Do you leave your current chase (or are you carrying someone) just to go hunt people who aren’t even a threat because they’re not working on any gens right now since one just got done? and the moment ar there? aura gone, people gone, .. and .. you left a chase for this ? why?

  What does that even get you?

  in Perk ruiners Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @PuddleOfBludd said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978405#Comment_3978405

  The fact that you say “spam it brainlessly “ speaks volumes. You have never played survivor. If you had you wouldn’t make such an ignorant comment.

  

  You have never played survivor.

  I doubt so.

  in I hope you will be happy now Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @crogers271 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978588#Comment_3978588

  It's a motte-and-bailey.

  A correct callout of the motte-and-bailey fallacy? Wonders will never cease.

  

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @PuddleOfBludd said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975709#Comment_3975709

  Didn’t you just say like two posts before this that everything the killer does is deserved? Stop being a hypocrite and sit down.

  If you can tell me the exact context and the specific post you're referring to, I'm happy to respond.
  I'm just having a hard time figuring out what exactly you're referencing — I've written a lot.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Firellius said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978136#Comment_3978136

  .. just wanna say first: as a survivor, I always look at myself first before blaming teammates. And at the overall situation.

  Yup, it’s easy to just blame the team or the killer, but I know that a lot of it often comes down to me — like overextending loops, being greedy, the classic “one more loop” or “I can definitely make that pallet” stuff. So yea, lots of sloppy plays on my end sometimes.

  Now apply that to killer.

  hh— uhm... big um,
  Why does it always turn into a “you just suck, just get good” thing the second you lose as killer and say there was nothing you could do?

  Like, ye— as killer I’m apparently supposed to play at 100% perfection at all times.
  Never miss a shot, hit validation always flawless, can’t lose a single 50/50, gotta win every mindgame...

  But you don't. You're happy to demand better from your survivor gameplay, but NOT from your killer gameplay. So you instead resort to the argument that you -cannot- win, even though you obviously can.

  Meanwhile… how many “I misplayed but got bailed out by X” mechanics do survivors have again on their side?

  One.

  The hatch.

  Everything else has nothing to do with 'misplays'. Getting tunneled, camped or slugged are not things that are in the survivor's control, and therefor they cannot be their 'misplays'. They are things that the killer unilaterally decides.

  And no, going down is not a 'misplay' either. You are not supposed to hold chase indefinitely. That's why infinites were removed, why Bloodlust is still here.

  But with all the stuff that’s being asked for lately —
  more 50/50 balance, more comeback mechanics, more of this, more of that…
  and then throw in anti-slug, anti-tunnel, and whatever else is coming…

  Like, how?

  Except 50/50 balance, comeback mechanisms and 'more of this, more of that' aren't on the menu.

  The devs blatantly came out and stated that they balance the game to make survivors lose more and this is, what, the second thread in YEARS, and it's not even arguing for 50/50!

  The only thing people have been asking for is anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug, to limit the way in which the killer can just bar people from gameplay and ruin the game for everyone else. Survivors have been losing for ages, and the only complaint is about HOW they lose, not THAT they lose.

  Are killers just supposed to stand there and watch every halfway decent group that understands the game escape… and just be okay with that?

  It's a motte-and-bailey.

  First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.

  And that's where your argument becomes fallacious, because while the top 1% of swiffers can be argued to be unbalanced, possibly even 'unbeatable', you can't make the same argument for 'halfway decent groups', since the vast majority of them get routinely stomped. We -know- survivors, across the board, are losing the majority of their matches. Even the high MMR 4-man swiffers of nightmares do not average an escape rate over 50%.

  But you don't need them to, because you set up the perfect DBD gods in a hypothetical 4-man team of doom and then go on to suggest that Bucko & Pals with 300 hours between them are exactly as problematic.

  It's a motte-and-bailey. Flipper between two different positions and pretend they're the same.

  The 'halfway decent group' is not a problem for a competent killer.

  Huh? I never said killers got nothing. They’ve received plenty of buffs — and many of them were important to actually bring the game into a more balanced state.
  You're taking things out of context here.

  What I did say is that with things like anti-slug, anti-tunnel, etc. coming, killers are getting nothing to compensate.
  Not that they’ve never received anything in the past. (Same goes for survivors, by the way.)

  That's still a terrible argument, because the entirety of the past couple of years, that massive care package IS the compensation for the upcoming changes.

  Prior to 6.1, it was generally considered acceptable to buff killers in exchange for getting rid of tunnelling, camping and slugging. Then 6.1 rolled around, we got the killer buff part, and we never got the compensatory anti-tunnel, anti-camp, anti-slug that was supposed to come with it. We got slap-on-the-wrist basekit BT and a NERF, of all things, to what was at the time the ONLY anti-tunnel.

  The entire washing list of killer buffs were supposed to be balanced out by anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, but those changes were delayed. Now we're finally (potentially) getting the compensation that survivors were supposed to get.

  It's like two kids both being promised a present, kid A gets theirs a week early, and then when kid B finally gets theirs, kid A throws a tantrum that B got something and 'they never did!'

  You're the one ripping things out of context. You can't argue that these changes are being made against a blank slate and just ignore multiple years of shifting the balance further in favour of killers, just so you can demand extra goodies when survivors finally get parity.

  And I responded that it’s not about feeling uncomfortable — it’s about the fact that even with all the balance changes that favored killers, we still can’t create a situation where upcoming changes or calls for “more 50/50 balance” don’t end up pushing the game back into a state where, as killer, you just can’t do anything again.

  That is proven by literally nothing, and all data and statistics point in the opposite direction. What you're talking about is forum killer dogma. It's a story with nothing to back it up, and no one is allowed to question it.

  Yup... so what do we even have today? Scourge Hook? You need hooks for that. Only top killers get those quickly and consistently. Good teams don’t give them to you that for free. (Sure, in weak lobbies you’ll get Scourge value after Scourge value while they keep feeding you...)

  Aside from the fact that all of that stuff is all -after- 6.1 and thus part of the upward trend of regression, you're also constantly talking your way around the basekit gen regression buffs.

  This is not stuff that's tied to perks, this is stuff you benefit from no matter what killer you play and no matter what perks you bring.

  Yes, it's not as game-breakingly overpowered as CoBRuption was, but it's still undeniably much, much stronger than anything pre-6.1.

  Y, on this journey, a lot of casuals have either quit or gotten way better. It’s a good thing because survivors now actually have to improve their gameplay—no more easy rounds. Makes it harder for killers, but the game’s more balanced and skill-based overall.

  That means the game didn't get harder at all, you're just not left with any survivors at your own skill level because they all got 'balanced' out of the game.

  And … about Option B — how exactly are killers supposed to win when matches are already super close, and then all these changes people want (anti-camp, anti-slug, more comeback mechanics, 50/50 balance) get added? I’m genuinely curious.

  By improving.

  Or, potentially, by going up against survivors of their own skill level again once they return to the game.

  Either way, you may have to deal with losing the occasional match. But at least it won't be as bad as the devs saying you -should- lose the majority of your matches, and people on the forums then telling you that you should lose -even more-.

  Now apply that to killer.

  sure, happy to

  It’s really not that hard, right?
  If I play badly as survivor — go too YOLO, misjudge something, get too greedy or take risky plays, mess up my chase — then yup, the consequence is that I’ll probably die that round.
  

  Sure, I can still try to recover, give it 100% in the next chase, especially if I notice my team is actually trying... but in the end: I don’t know how long I’ll last. I don’t know how long I can keep playing clean. If I make a mistake — it happens. Sorry, team. I just hope I bought you enough time.

  Same goes for killer:
  If I misjudge things, mess up my chases, lose too many mindgames, fall for dumb stuff — the natural consequence is that I’ll probably lose that match.

  
  That’s just how it is, right?

  But you don't. You're happy to demand better from your survivor gameplay, but NOT from your killer gameplay. So you instead resort to the argument that you -cannot- win, even though you obviously can.

  I’m not demanding anything — who am I to make demands? I don’t expect anything from survivors or killers. Play however you want. Go for it. Have fun with whatever works for you.

  But you also can’t expect to win if there are a lot of misplays — whether you’re playing killer or survivor. That’s just how it is.
  I mean, at the end of the day, DBD is a PvP game.
  I’ll still give someone a headshot in tarkov or hunt:showdown even if they’re clearly memeing.

  One.

  The hatch.

  Everything else has nothing to do with 'misplays'. Getting tunneled, camped or slugged are not things that are in the survivor's control, and therefor they cannot be their 'misplays'. They are things that the killer unilaterally decides.

  And no, going down is not a 'misplay' either. You are not supposed to hold chase indefinitely. That's why infinites were removed, why Bloodlust is still here.

  kinda sweet that you brought up hatch… <3 because, well… hatch is actually one of the few things I do still have quite a bit of control over as killer.
  Hatch is something I can deny you in most matches. If I want it, it’s usually mine. That situation tends to lean heavily in the killer’s favor.
  I was more thinking about other stuff, though.

  But yup, totally agree:
  If I tunnel you, it means I want you. I’m not half-committing.
  You can’t really control that — you’re gonna go down, just like in any regular chase.
  The only difference is, you’re starting that chase already injured (which sucks for you and benefits me),
  and the tunnel just keeps dragging you closer to death hook.

  So at that point, it’s super important your team is doing gens — or at least trying to take hits or do something.
  It won’t fully stop what’s happening, but it can buy a lot of valuable time.
  And your team really needs to use that time while you’re the one getting tunneled.

  Slugging and proxy camping, though?
  You can usually deal with that a bit better — there's more you can do in those situations compared to tunneling.

  In the end, it’s a matter of how much your team pushes forward, because the timer is ticking.

  Gu... I've seen the whole 50/50 balance and more comeback mechanics thing mentioned multiple times in this thread already — and I was specifically referencing that in my comment.
  (You can scroll through the replies I was responding to if you're unsure what I meant.)

  For example,..

  “Fully agree with you, there should be catch-up mechanics implemented to prevent the easy snowballs.”

  Or this line:

  “In theory, these snowball matches would be much less frequent if the kill rate target was a fair 50%.”

  xcept 50/50 balance, comeback mechanisms and 'more of this, more of that' aren't on the menu.

  The devs blatantly came out and stated that they balance the game to make survivors lose more and this is, what, the second thread in YEARS, and it's not even arguing for 50/50!

  The only thing people have been asking for is anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug, to limit the way in which the killer can just bar people from gameplay and ruin the game for everyone else. Survivors have been losing for ages, and the only complaint is about HOW they lose, not THAT they lose.

  I keep hearing that survivors have been losing for years.
  But whenever I ask people for their stats, it often turns out they have a solid 50–60% escape rate.
  I mean… maybe I’m just asking the “wrong” people, I don’t know.

  But yup, i mean.. as i said already.. stats don’t tell the full story in my opinion — they don’t show what actually happens during the match.

  And sure… anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug — I understand the desire for that.
  But then… where is the killer supposed to get their pressure from?
  Or is pressure only allowed in insta-down lobbies now?

  t's a motte-and-bailey.

  First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.

  And that's where your argument becomes fallacious, because while the top 1% of swiffers can be argued to be unbalanced, possibly even 'unbeatable', you can't make the same argument for 'halfway decent groups', since the vast majority of them get routinely stomped. We -know- survivors, across the board, are losing the majority of their matches. Even the high MMR 4-man swiffers of nightmares do not average an escape rate over 50%.

  But you don't need them to, because you set up the perfect DBD gods in a hypothetical 4-man team of doom and then go on to suggest that Bucko & Pals with 300 hours between them are exactly as problematic.

  It's a motte-and-bailey. Flipper between two different positions and pretend they're the same.

  The 'halfway decent group' is not a problem for a competent killer.

  First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.

  That’s not exactly what I said.

  what I said was (to quote myself):

  But yup, I’ll say it too:

  It’s physically impossible to win if the survivor team plays perfectly.

  Zero mistakes.

  But… 

  nobody

   does that. No one.

  Not even Team Eternal, since you brought them up as an example.

  
  

  And that’s exactly where killer have their chance — they have stronger tools to capitalize on mistakes.
  I’m totally fine admitting that if a survivor team plays 100%perfect, , I’ve got no shot.

  But that just… doesn’t happen.
  Everyone makes mistakes. I make them as killer — and so do survivors.

  So yipp I'm pressing Ready against Team Eternal on the current state. (Yep, I’m from EU too.)

  (cuz i knew, - mistakes can happen. and atm i can caitalize)

  But with all the stuff that’s being asked for lately —
  more 50/50 balance, more comeback mechanics, more of this, more of that…
  and then throw in anti-slug, anti-tunnel, and whatever else is coming…

  I also said that I’d currently hit ready against any team. For now. In the current state of the game.
  Because — and I’ve said this before — killers can still heavily capitalize on team mistakes.
  But that includes all the stuff a lot of survivors don’t like: tunneling, camping, slugging.

  And my final point was this:
  If these upcoming changes really go through — where killers can’t tunnel, camp, or slug effectively anymore, and they don’t get anything in return — then killers will be powerless.
  And we’ll be forced to just sit there and watch even "mediocre, average teams" escape.
  Maybe hope for 1–2 kills at best.

  your answer to this was just:

  But the second the devs turn their attention to survivors, 'killers get nothing!'.

  That's still a terrible argument, because the entirety of the past couple of years, that massive care package IS the compensation for the upcoming changes.

  Prior to 6.1, it was generally considered acceptable to buff killers in exchange for getting rid of tunnelling, camping and slugging. Then 6.1 rolled around, we got the killer buff part, and we never got the compensatory anti-tunnel, anti-camp, anti-slug that was supposed to come with it. We got slap-on-the-wrist basekit BT and a NERF, of all things, to what was at the time the ONLY anti-tunnel.

  The entire washing list of killer buffs were supposed to be balanced out by anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, but those changes were delayed. Now we're finally (potentially) getting the compensation that survivors were supposed to get.

  It's like two kids both being promised a present, kid A gets theirs a week early, and then when kid B finally gets theirs, kid A throws a tantrum that B got something and 'they never did!'

  You're the one ripping things out of context. You can't argue that these changes are being made against a blank slate and just ignore multiple years of shifting the balance further in favour of killers, just so you can demand extra goodies when survivors finally get parity.

  Uh, what you’re waiting for has already happened a long time ago?

  all of that actually happened—just like BHVR promised. They never said they would completely remove tunneling, camping, or slugging. BHVR delivered what they said they would.

  Patch 6.1 came out in July, and pretty early on, the promised anti-tunnel change arrived in the form of free bt. Later on, the anti-camp mechanic—the self-unhook near the hook—was added as well.

  This already happened ages ago.

  Everything that was promised at that point has already long made its way into the game.

  That is proven by literally nothing, and all data and statistics point in the opposite direction. What you're talking about is forum killer dogma. It's a story with nothing to back it up, and no one is allowed to question it.

  proof 1:

  https://youtu.be/LBiuNcZMgIs

  normal "not this good average" group.kinda meme perks,.. No impressive chases, no top 1% player performance you like to lean on. Michaela makes a huge mistake by giving insane double pressure with a down right near the hook.
  Yup, slugging not allowed, right? Camping neither? And tunneling definitely not. Yup. how so?

  2.)

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN7lU_orSMA

  good SOLOQ lobby..

  Not many mistakes on the survivor side, but got heavily hit by the killer-sided event mode + a really, really bad survivor map + in the end an overcommitment on the cover on the Sable.

  3)

  https://youtu.be/56v5mBzZd7w

  Super close draw. It would’ve been a win if David hadn’t wasted so much time with the whole “I chase you, killer” stuff and instead focused on gens after a certain point.

  That means the game didn't get harder at all, you're just not left with any survivors at your own skill level because they all got 'balanced' out of the game.

  Skill level? DBD isn’t rocket science. Eventually, almost everyone in the lobby knows the important stuff, just hopes for a good map + good RNG, a lucky win or loss in a 50/50, some advantage for their side—and just grinds it out.

  By improving.

  Or, potentially, by going up against survivors of their own skill level again once they return to the game.

  Either way, you may have to deal with losing the occasional match. But at least it won't be as bad as the devs saying you -should- lose the majority of your matches, and people on the forums then telling you that you should lose -even more-.

  Sure… you can always improve.
  But skill in DBD just isn’t rewarded that much.
  What’s the point of perfecting Huntress crossmap shots if you get no real value out of them and the survivor is already back on their feet by the time you get there?

  DBD, on both sides, is more about efficiency and pressure than raw "skill".

  I’ve been playing pretty actively since almost the release — +10,000 h —
  so what kind of survivors am I supposed to face that truly “match my skill level,” just so I’m allowed to have an opinion on whether anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, or a general shift toward a more 50/50 state is good for the game ?

  At what point do I have the right to form an opinion about the fact that the stats are difficult — not because of lack of “survivor goodies” — but rather because of what I personally see as the core issue (which I’ve already outlined in this thread): the matchmaking system being far too lenient or in some cases outright non-functional?

  Like I already tried to explain in my post about the 25+25+25+25 vs. 100 from the killer's side...

  and no one is allowed to question it.

  Sure, anyone can ask. Go ahead — why not? Just ask.
  But if you say “It’s a story with nothing to back it up” … then what exactly do you want from my side? What are you expecting? Just ask. Ready to share.

  Mind showing me how you win against people who kind of understand the game — without using any pressure tools whatsoever?

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978555#Comment_3978555

  So the only seperation is you know the counters to spirit but you don't understand them for Clown.
  
  I'll tell you this, its a lot more fair trying to bait a clown on a semi-safe pallet into a stun than just playing 50's at every pallet/window against a spirit; its a lot more engaging too.
  
  vacuum noises
  Whoops I guessed wrong! Guess I die!

  With that call u basically brings back 2018–2019 Spirit, as long as she doesn't have prayer beads.
  And today? Spirit has way more counterplay nowadays than this "vacuum into guessin game."

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978545#Comment_3978545

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mm3sIX9Uc
  
  This is Arinad, the forethought on Clown mains and author of the 200 page clown guide, stating he's alright with the changes, despite "mastering a specific playstyle, only to have it broken by a massive rework."
  
  Regardless of BHVR original mechanical intent, the goal was to move Clown up the roster due to his woeful pick rate, out-dated power and weak performance, which by all accounts has succeeded.
  
  People "mastered" old freddy, Forever freddy and the modern freddy, and all of those have flipped his gameplay on their head. Were you as passionate about Freddy as you were clown?

  tbh… y, you got me. I also thought the old Freddy changes were messy and poorly done. I actually really liked the design when he was completely invisible.

  Fun fact: I tried to defend him back then too, more so asking for changes that just fixed the real issues (like people taking too long to get pulled into the dream, etc.)

  But thanks for the little nostalgia trip — I really did try to defend “OG” Freddy before the rework turned him into something totally different.

  (yesh, i wish the 2016 devs back somehoow)

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978537#Comment_3978537

  I don't think its a matter of opinion to say a killer who cannot be countered is unhealthy for the game, nor pointing out the hypocrisy of defending a much more egregiously unhealthy killer while going after another which isn't anywhere near in power scaling and objectively healthier for the game state purely because it doesn't float your boat.
  
  I don't really like Plague or Legion; never demanded they be changed purely because I deem their power "boring" and "easy to use".
  
  You needn't worry though, the games history proves my perspective is in the minority, so Clown will get Skull Merchant'd soon enough.
  
  I'm just offering you perspective on why your game sucks and feels like the same crap different day over and over again. It's because you(royal) resist change or identifying the real problem and the community likes feels over reals. Blight and Nurse feel fair even though the evidence runs wildly contrary, but Clown feels unfair, so he's gotta go. Cheers.

  he fact is: Clown was reworked to supposedly make him more 'versatile'—to encourage people to use both bottles more equally, instead of relying mostly on his main one.
  I never had an issue with that to begin with (I mean, the main bottle was his core ability—the other one was just a gimmick), but Behaviour clearly thought the gameplay was too one-dimensional.

  But if things now end up exactly where we started—where one bottle becomes dominant again and the other is barely used—and on top of that, many of the different macro gameplay variants are getting phased out,
  then I’d argue that’s actually worse design than before.

  Take Legion, for example—yes, super boring, no doubt.
  But Legion’s mechanic was always Legion’s mechanic.
  There was never a point where players invested hundreds or even thousands of hours into mastering a specific playstyle, only to have it broken by a massive rework.
  Legion got buffs over time, sure—but never anything that completely flipped their gameplay on its head

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @UnicornMedal said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977414#Comment_3977414

  No offense, but you're too in your emotions to talk about this.

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977442#Comment_3977442

  Again, genuinely no offense, but same here.

  I don't have the capacity nor the desire to shift the conversation in that direction.

  I sent you a private message because I don’t want the thread to go too far off-topic. But.. Maybe you’ll reply and let me know how I’m allowed to talk to you—or how I should express myself—so that my perspective isn’t immediately dismissed, but at least given a chance to be understood?

  Maybe you’ll reply, maybe you won’t—that’s up to you. But I’m more than willing to change the way I express myself (if I knew how...) if it meant that maybe the things I’m trying to say would be heard a bit more.

  in My problem with the 60% kill rate target Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978529#Comment_3978529

  "We again find ourselves back at the perceived excuse for that which is investment or "skill". So its okay that Blight or Nurse, if operated correctly, cannot be meaningfully beaten/countered and I just have to respect their skill, but the Clown who can be beaten/countered even when played correctly I must not respect or accept, because he allegedly required less investment? Or that I didn't FEEL his misuse as telegraphed as Blights or Nurse i.e. direct feedback, regardless of outcome."
  
  

  "The new Clown isn’t as strong as Nurse or Blight, if that’s what you’re trying to say? I dont think you will see any (not manipulated) win streak like this with him. but.. Yea, safe safe. And I know Nurse is really tough to beat—hardly any team can keep up with her. But honestly, I’m not too worried about it: I have that one killer where I know I’ll usually win, even if the survivor team makes almost no mistakes. With most other killers, I still need a ton of survivor errors to have a good chance—so I’m totally fine with that and don’t feel bad about it when I play Nurse. "

  https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MF1B7B7E5P6G/go5vpvnwuaavwhk.jpg

  There's nothing wrong with Clown.

  It's not just about "skill" alone, but when Behaviour changes something to favor one aspect—like pushing a particular part of a killer’s kit to be used more—and it results in that part being heavily favored as soon as people play efficiently and not meme-style, then that’s a design flaw. It just happens in reverse now, leading to a monotonous, one-dimensional use of the base killer kit, and this time it impacts the entire macro gameplay in a noticeably more boring way.

  This is why i think he will change him again. But maybe I´m wrong.

  The rest is honestly just like you said—a personal thing and a matter of taste. I just personally enjoy playing Nurse more, for example, because I feel like I need to be more focused. Or if it’s an M1 killer, I tend to prefer ones like Sadako or Myers, because I feel more challenged in both micro and macro gameplay. :D But like I said, tastes differ, and that’s totally okay, right? I mean, I’m genuinely happy for you that you enjoy the new Clown.

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978521#Comment_3978521

  You're literally proving my point.

  If your point is to say the new Clown isn’t “OP,” I’ve never argued the opposite. They did make him stronger, sure, but he’s still not “upper top.” I just find him way too easy to play for what he can do… and don’t think the changes to his core design are that great. (But hey, seems like you actually like how he is now) :D

  But if the new "Clown" meta ends up just being that one bottle gets used way more than the others… then they’ll probably push another change afterward.

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978513#Comment_3978513

  Well again its in your wording; "mistakes don't FEEL nearly as costly or punishing". The evidence does not support that though, it's a feeling. When you show me the new Clown with a 2k winstreak I'll concede my point, but the reality is there are killers who are objectively NOT punished or punished enough for misusing their power, and they happen to be Nurse, Blight specifically, and to some extent Ghoul.
  
  We again find ourselves back at the perceived excuse for that which is investment or "skill". So its okay that Blight or Nurse, if operated correctly, cannot be meaningfully beaten/countered and I just have to respect their skill, but the Clown who can be beaten/countered even when played correctly I must not respect or accept, because he allegedly required less investment? Or that I didn't FEEL his misuse as telegraphed as Blights or Nurse i.e. direct feedback, regardless of outcome.
  
  This mindset is the reason the game is in the state that its in to begin with, and if this perception is left unchallenged, then people have no right to complain about the staleness of the Killer Meta, nor constant rotation of Nurse, Blight and Ghoul at the top.

  The new Clown isn’t as strong as Nurse or Blight, if that’s what you’re trying to say? I dont think you will see any (not manipulated) win streak like this with him. but.. Yea, safe safe. And I know Nurse is really tough to beat—hardly any team can keep up with her. But honestly, I’m not too worried about it: I have that one killer where I know I’ll usually win, even if the survivor team makes almost no mistakes. With most other killers, I still need a ton of survivor errors to have a good chance—so I’m totally fine with that and don’t feel bad about it when I play Nurse.

  And after a few hours playing Nurse, I also know exactly what I “did” and where my focus was. With Clown, I just don’t get that feeling. To me, he’s simply too “easy” at that point.

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978499#Comment_3978499

  Plagues ease of counter depends on a variety of factors; from team-mates, tile arrangement and strength, to the map itself. The same thing can be said of Clown.
  
  You're now speaking about misusing power and getting punished, which is like saying old Dead Hard is fine because people Dead Harded for distance directly into a wall. We're not talking about people misuing there power. If you're trying to suggest Clown never gets punished for making bad decisions or not knowing how to loop you'd be wrong; four man stacks can still make a Clown out of the Clown even when he's playing correctly. There are tiles you cannot haste your way past. If all you're doing with clown is lunging speed rush at every pallet you will get punished at high MMR. Would you like videos of someone playing Clown at a high MMR and getting countered as new speed Clown?
  
  I have a video of literally 2 DC's and 1 AFK getting carried by a single player running the clown.
  
  Edit: There is never any meaningful distance gained on Mobility killers for their mistakes, like you tried to suggest with Nurse and Blight. The evidence for that just isn't there and comes down to the operator not the vehicle. It might FEEL that way, but thats all it is, a FEELING. The very nature of their high mobility negates that entirely and is the reason they are so high on power scale. Suggesting Blight can have any meaningful punishment when he's been used for 2k winstreaks is patently false and is just "When I dead hard I just run into the wall!". You're asking me to believe in 2000 games a man never made a single mistake with his power or 8000 survivors with 32,000 perks at the height of MMR were a bunch of bumbling clowns.

  It’s not about “misusing” the power. It’s about human mistakes—things everyone makes, even the best Blight and Nurse players. And the amount of focus and concentration each killer demands to be played consistently at a high level for hours.
  It’s not about playing the killer or their kit “wrong,” but simply about the human errors that happen even to the best players.
  I never said Clown never gets punished—where would that even be? But when you play Clown, mistakes don’t feel nearly as costly or punishing. You recover faster from every mistake and can do more with those moments.
  And overall, you don’t need to invest nearly as much focus as when I’m playing Nurse for 8 hours straight, for example.

  For me, all that just makes Clown super boring, to be honest - but as i said, glad to hear that someone like the recent changes. I mean, its fine ? People enjoy different things :D

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @FusedGod265 said:

  im just saying it seem more one sided in the favor of the killer. And im usually playing solo not always but a good amount of matches. So unless you gotta a competent team mostly likely your not making it out. And now the maps are basically windows of opportunity which in mean opinion kinda stinks it was nice being able to hunt totems.

  Oof… but if I kill you this round—I mean, I try to finish things clean and quickly for everyone in those “special cursed solo queue lobbies where the team just doesn’t cooperate” so I can send this team fast to their next (hopefully better) match — then I hope you look left and right and check your solo queue team before blaming me as the killer… you do that, right? <3

  :/

  in Perk ruiners Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978491#Comment_3978491

  With respect, the mindset that only killers who require an X-amount of hours or put a premium on "skill" (that is a lot lower of an investment than you think) is the reason Nurse, Blight and Ghoul are dominating the upper echelons and why you see the same boring meta of Grim Embrace + DMS + Pain Res on nearly every killer; their trying to close that gap of power.
  
  There's nothing wrong with making a killer accessible and strong; not every element of a killers power requires counterplay. For instance; there is no real counterplay to getting broken through infection to plague unless you chose to make a very dubious decision and cleanse. I can speak from experience as someone who likes to run full healing build its incredibly demoralizing to know all of my perks are pretty much useless.
  
  Doesn't mean Plague is OP, even though she's not particularly hard to play and has a "1 dimensional power".
  
  I also want to point out that the last section of tiering killers being hogwash is a crazy take that can only exist from spreadsheet gaming.

  Sure... but.. Plague is also super, super, SUPER easy to counter. And not this strong. And y.. Learning Nurse isn’t as hard as many think, same with Blight. Good curve control with Billy isn’t rocket science either. BUT: every mistake you make can be costly. Really costly. Blink wrong with Nurse once? Good players turn that straight into a huge disadvantage and get distance immediately. Use all your rushes with Blight wrong? You get punished hard.

  That’s exactly what I feel is missing with the new Clown. At least for me, personally.

  yipp, sure, the boring bottle reload time is a ‘punishment.’ But honestly, it feels way more like super boring downtime than an actual ‘I messed up and now I’m paying for it’ kind of punishment

  But hey, everyone likes different things :D. So go for it when u have fun. And glad to hear from someone who actually enjoys the changes. (So far I’ve mostly heard negative feedback (yup most from killer side), even though they definitely made him stronger

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978479#Comment_3978479

  For me it changes a lot. If theres a killer in the game that can have a 2000 game win streak, against every scenario imaginable, to me that indicates theres no real meaningful counterplay to that killer. Yet your not in here complaining about that killer.
  
  Your in here complaining about Clown, because you deem his power "1 dimensional", a completely subjective take. Having played Clown and against Clown, I gotta say I never once felt bored during the entire process. New clown being a high speed machine feels great; pinks still have uses at certain loops and are great for forcing medium vaults that change misses into hits. Even the man who wrote the 200 page clown guide, whose entire guide is invalidated by this, has gone on the record and said this is all pretty great and fun for Clown. Fighting against clown now translates to cutting chases a little shorter as surv; not greeding and pre-dropping earlier or like nurse, avoiding detection in weaker areas all together until you've got Gen momentum.
  
  There's no shortage of counterplay; the character isn't OP, he's just new and accessible, and a specific group of people don't want to adapt to either of those two things. There's nothing wrong with Clown; and I wish more killers would also recieve similar buffs to push them further into A tier regions to restore Killer in general to the power role in the game.

  Sure, it’s subjective. If you enjoy it—fair enough, go for it. For me, he’s just not it; I find playing him way too boring. I’ve also heard from quite a few Clown mains that they’re pretty unhappy with the changes. But it’s nice to hear finally from people who actually have fun with the changes! :D

  but..

  I just hope they don’t turn every reworked killer into some “super easy to play” formula. I’ve heard a lot of criticism from Clown mains who played him for his macro gameplay complexity, which now basically becomes obsolete. (this is why i think they will change him again) I get the frustration there; personally, I also find Clown way too easy to play (and no, not OP).

  Whether the new Clown is “A-tier” is a tough call. I think other killers still have “more” going on, though honestly, I don’t put much stock into these whole “tier lists.” For me, there’s “Nurse… Blight.” And then everyone else. "the big rest."

  Also,for the others beside nurse/blight: where a killer sits on that “tier list” shifts massively depending on the map they get, the teams they face, and what perks those teams bring. So sure, you can roughly categorize killers as “strong,” “good,” “okay,” “bad,” or “trash.” But assigning an exact spot on a tier list? Too many other factors influence that to be reliable.

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Nobody_TM said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453217/something-has-to-be-done-about-clown

  Good survivors can still beat the new Clown; all Clown has become is Viable at higher MMRs, which means he must die.
  
  Only Blight, Nurse and Kaneki are allowed such privleges.
  
  Coincidentally does anyone know why I only see Blight, Nurse and Kaneki every game? Its getting really old.

  Of course, he’s beatable… that doesn’t really change anything overall.

  I mean.. you really like that design? Um.. only my opinion, but u can make killers strong and suitable for high MMR without making them completely easy and boring (and one-dimensional) to play. I’d like to see many killers buffed to be more viable at high MMR—but definitely not like they’re trying with Clown or like pre-nerf Kaneki… idk

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @dark_hunter92 said:

  Killers want as much hand-holding as possible. What with all the aura reading perks, speed, slow downs, just remove survivors from the ######### game, as that's what it seems like.

  yiiike.. People complain about aura reading? Alright, killer brings gen regression. Wait, ok, I see. that’s not fun either? Okay, how about a totem build? Oh no, Thrill of the Hunt is annoying and unfun too?

  Got it.

  Killer’s learning.

  So now it’s a meme one-shot build—maybe Haunted, maybe Devour, maybe make ur choice, friends till the end.

  Wait what?

  One-shots are BS now too?

  Okay okay… how about a no terror radius build? That’s chill, right? Oh no, going down because you didn’t hear the TR is ALSO unfair?

  Alright then… but surely an endgame build is fine, ye?

  Like No Way Out, Remember Me, Blood Warden… maybe a cheeky little NOED at the end?

  WHAAAT, that’s unfair too?? Noed is no fun skill issue stuff?

  Like come on… what exactly do ppl want the killer to play?? Holy *** :D

  Maybe some of you just the ones who want ompletely remove 1 role from the map?

  But hey, your precious little baby hands aren't being held, right? More like being carried

  Oof, but like… who actually wants to be babysat in the moment when you can’t even counter perks that are easy to counter?

  Syringe, used once, consumes the med-kit

  I can counter aura reading perks so the killer gets no value from them. But someone who heals themselves with a syringe? In many cases, you just can’t counter that at all.

  BT can be removed by hitting twice, which for most killers, is pretty easy.

  Free BT is also not supposed to be “the killer can’t tunnel and I get out of prison for free.” It’s meant to do what it usually does in most cases: help the person reach a structure or tile they can use to work with, without going down instantly.

  • Nurses - used infinitely, not even a cooldown

  Why does the perk need a cooldown? Have you even read the perk description? It doesn’t need a cooldown because it’s already naturally limited to the situation where the survivor is healing.
  Counterplay? How about not healing within Nurse’s range?xD to simple? .. big ouufh, must be hard to hear, i know.
  You barely ever see this perk because almost everyone understands that (even the bad players).

  • Killer instinct - used infinitely, also makes the surv not be able to detect terror radius (But no hand holding right?)

  Which killer do I need to play to get “infinite Killer Instinct”?
  On which killer do I have the infinite KI?

  • Awakened Awareness - used infinitely, no cooldown

  Lol… nobody plays that perk. Like, literally no one—except maybe if they’re going for their adept. But if the condition “while carrying a survivor” already counts as “infinite” for you, then that pretty much explains where you’re getting your idea of “infinite” from lol.

  • BBQ - don't even have to explain myself

  What’s your problem with BBQ? Most of the time, the killer is so far away you don’t get any value from it. Just position yourself smart, expect them to come, mindgame the aura. If you’re scared of mobility killers with BBQ, just be sneaky and dodge through some locker or something.

  • Bitter Murmur - used infinitely, for basically free.

  That infinite Bitter Murmur… yea, we all know it. I’d love that too. Please put infinite generators on the map. Not only 5. Infinite pls! And for every gen they gone, Bitter Murmur triggers—so the “infinite” condition is always met. I’m all in :D

  edit:

  If we’re already talking about infinite: maybe soon BHVR will release the ‘Infinite Cooldown’ perk — you can use it infinite times, but it’s always on infinite cooldown :D

  in Perk ruiners Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Mechanix82 said:

  He has become a tunneling monster. Take away the fact that all clowns only use yellow bottles now which i though was what BHVR was trying to get them to not do use one bottle. Now all clowns proxy camp the hook and they are so fast you can not get to safety. I feel like BHVR just doesnt know what to do and is so detached from the game.

  … I don’t think they’ll leave Clown as he is. Never. Definitely not. Safe safe. He’s just way too easy to play and like you said, a lot of people play him ultra one-dimensional.

  He’s still loopable, body-blockable, all that — so the whole “every Clown tunnels and you can’t get away” thing? Clown was already like that before. Getting away while a Clown tunnels wasn’t exactly easy before either.

  I mean, come on, every Clown has tunneled before already xD

  And : a Nurse tunneling or a Blight (or some other killers) are way stronger in that regard.

  I’d even leave that argument " clown tunnels, you can´t get away" out.

  but beside that.. Clown all in all is:

  t’s just super boring design. Anyone can play him and gets crazy value for “doing little/being easy.” BHVR somehow has this thing lately where they release or change killers to be “super easy to play but still relatively strong.” :/

  And I don’t think they’ll ever leave him as he is right now. I think/hope we’ll see a rework soon.

  in Something has to be done about clown Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @BrightWolf said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978300#Comment_3978300

  As long as you're a strong looper, you will do gangbusters against most Ghoul's (including myself).

  But being able to "perform well" isn't what most people who hate Ghoul care about. I also only play Ghoul when they change something about him, just to get a feel for the changes. (I find him way too boring—too easy to play.) And I immediately notice how much people hate him. (Way more if you come in with Nurse and send people crazy fast back to the lobby with 4-5 gens left.)

  But those are just unfair hits survivors sometimes get. And regarding fair hits or fair hit registration on the killer side, you already experience enough super unfair stuff in this game. And Ghoul’s design is even based on the fact that survivors get hits around corners, through walls, whatever.

  in Kaneki hate Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Ryuhi said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978443#Comment_3978443

  I get what you mean. The big thing with the item in terms of accessibility is that there are few ways to fix it without either obliterating it or just doubling down. They either need to give some type of viable way to compensate (like a perk that negates its effects, or revisiting how it interacts with auras,) or reduce the amount of tracking elements it hides (not necessarily their potency.) Those would probably be the only changes that would do much of anything in a reasonable manner.

  BHVR is just BHVR—does and bring something, then realizes maybe it’s not so great, and comes out with quick, unconsidered fixes.
  I’m super thankful for the limited uses, and that "braindead" spamming in every possible situation was never something I could truly respect or call "skillful" from a killer’s perspective. Sure, there were some tough groups who perfected it—not so much in a stealth way, but more to annoy you so the chase even starts, trying to milk max time from certain structures. (and denie window blocker)

  But now that it’s fairer and limited, I think the opacity nerf is overkill—at least from my point of view.
  I also don’t really know how to better solve the accessibility issue (which is probably the reason for this change). If visibility in the fog really improves, I wouldn’t mind if survivors got a small bonus when they leave the “influence of the fog.” (the moment the item is limited) Even if it’s just a short “free a few seconds of quick and quiet” or something like that. Or, idk, maybe a quick little dance with me—whatever. I chould be fine with that.

  (I think i would not care to much about such changes. (Normally, I don’t lose people that quickly))

  From a killer perspective, I wouldn’t have a problem if something like that came. (I mean, I’m of course also happy if, on the flip side, I can work better at range with some killers again—like Huntress, for example.)

  ehwk, I don’t know. I never really liked the whole fog idea from the start anyway.

  in I hope you will be happy now Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @Ryuhi said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978425#Comment_3978425

  Can't shut pandora's box. If that's they're reasoning, its extremely poor and kinda tonedeaf.

  I don’t know. Just speculation about the motivation of bhvr: (why else would BHVR do this? I honestly can’t think of any other reason besides some of the posts I’ve seen on the forums from people who actually have physical impairments.)

  I don’t have these impairments, so I can’t say what it’s like to have them (which is why I’d never try to judge how bad this is for people who do). But that’s the only reason I can imagine why BHVR is handling it this way.
  Because idk.. only from my pov: they could’ve even made the effect a bit stronger once it became limited. (But that’s just from my perspective.)
  I already had little issue tracking directly in the fog as it was.

  in I hope you will be happy now Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @AmpersandUnderscore said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978412#Comment_3978412

  Because the thread topic is about killers giving hatch, and why they should manipulate statistics?

  I've had two replies now to this. One person claiming that my comment is off topic, and now yours which is seemingly offended that I'm not going off topic to talk about things that aren't in this post.

  If you want to create a topic about survivors being entitled, go ahead, since that's also a thing for some people. But that's not really what this post is about, since it's directly taking about killers.

  to quote a part of your first post:

  The "I'm not responsible for your fun" mindset.

  Killers care more about winning, especially winning "harder", in the moment, than they do about some arbitrary statistic.

  I'll also add that, while this isn't all killer players, there are an awful lot of entitled players who simply expect buffs no matter what. That they deserve to 4k every game, and if they aren't able to, even once, that means the game *must be* survivor sided and killer needs buffs no matter what the statistics say.

  Those players think they are entitled to both, and "shouldn't have to make sacrifices for the buffs they clearly deserve already".

  was specifically referring to what you said with that. Because that kind of framing unnecessarily pushes the topic into an "us vs. them" mindset — like with "entitled players who simply expect buffs no matter what" or "That they deserve to 4k every game."

  What does " i need my 4k every game" even have to do with the context where hatch becomes relevant? Or why are you placing "they aren't able to, even once, that means the game must be survivor sided and killer needs buffs no matter what the statistics say." into a context that has nothing to do with the actual discussion about hatch?

  You're attributing arguments and motives to killer players in a way that doesn't really relate to the question of giving hatch at all.

  in Why killers allways should (not) give hatch! Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @sizzlingmario4 said:

  Limited charges is a warranted nerf, but nerfing the opacity is overkill. The infinite use was the only problem imo.

  And yeah Potent Extract at 5% with those downsides is bad.

  Yup, I actually 100% agree with you.
  I wouldn’t have minded if they made it even a bit stronger the moment that charges are limited.. but..: But I say “actually” because I’m referring to my own matches and personal experience here.

  I think the reason BHVR is doing this (nerfing the opacity) is because... there are a lot of players who have issues with vision or hearing, but still play DBD.
  They learned the game in a state that was playable for them — with their limitations — and then suddenly an item gets added that, overnight, makes the game partially unplayable for some of them. I think that’s the reason BHVR adjusted the opacity.

  Of course, I can’t say for sure. But here's the thing:
  If someone has a physical disability, they’ll probably avoid games that rely heavily on sight — like shooters — where you know upfront that the game involves smoke bombs or visual clutter.
  With DBD, though, they probably checked out the game and realized “hey, I can actually play this,” because it didn’t have something like Fog Vial in it originally. And then years later, suddenly something gets added that makes it borderline unplayable for them.

  I don’t have any impairments myself, so I can’t speak from experience. But I try to put myself in their shoes — and maybe that’s what BHVR is thinking here, too, idk.

  in I hope you will be happy now Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @AmpersandUnderscore said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978326#Comment_3978326

  what you’re bringing up goes way too off-topic and dives into mindsets and situations that have nothing to do with the actual question

  Quite the opposite in fact.

  My entire point is that people will care more about their personal match outcome than some statistic. And I'm completely, 100% correct there.

  Basically all of your responses in this thread confirm this also: you say repeatedly that you feel entitled to the 4k and won't give hatch no matter what, which I even say is going to be the common response.

  Mentality is the entire reason this "give hatch for statistics manipulation" thing doesn't hold water.

  Yup, you know I’m agreeing with your point here. I totally do. I gave you 100% right on that. Like I said before: stats don’t matter to me at that point. My personal match outcome is way more important. Yup, you’re right.

  What you quoted wasn’t even a direct quote to you, but a reply to the idea that I take the game too seriously. Maybe I do.

  I just explained why I personally take those situations seriously — because if, by some miracle, all killers suddenly decided “let’s change the stats and always give a chance for hatch/gate” (which I know won’t happen) — in that hypothetical case, it would just make even more people play for their personal escape an surv side, making the hatch/gate an even bigger topic issue again.

  Killers might get faster rmatches/maybe manipulated stats, but would that really improve the survivor lobbies overall?

  in Why killers allways should (not) give hatch! Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @PuddleOfBludd said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978390#Comment_3978390

  You’re not seriously trying to negate the fact that survivors can bring items BECAUSE killers have powers, are you?

  I don’t think items are necessary to counter specific killer powers — but they definitely make things easier. Just like I can bring stronger add-ons on the flip side.
  So… no, I’m totally fine with it. Toolboxes can be huge help once I start tunneling hard. Good flashlight saves? I take it. GG if it works and its a nice flashy save. And : I didn’t bring Lightborn. Same goes for flashbangs. Medkits are strong tools too.
  And if people want to go for sabo plays — that’s fine by me. I can always slug, and they better be ready for a rough match. Bringing sabo into a match is super high risk.

  But: toolboxes are strong and super limited. Flashlights are often counterable (not always), and even when they aren’t — someone has to leave their gen, get into position, and if they want to make it easier, they have to sacrifice a perk slot for PGP.

  The fog, on the other hand? You just spam it. No skill, no thought about when to use it or what moment to save it for… no positioning needed.
  Sure, good positioning makes it stronger — but you can also just pop it early and spam it brainlessly.

  So yup, I think it’s a good thing that it now takes some skill and thought to decide when, where, and how to use the item strategically during the match and not just.. "I can spam it anyways."

  in I hope you will be happy now Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025

• @PuddleOfBludd said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978347#Comment_3978347

  killers powers are unlimited use. Once again, a double standard.

  You’re not seriously trying to compare an item that one side can bring with them to what killers have as basekit power, are you?

  in I hope you will be happy now Comment by oecrophy August 6, 2025