oecrophy
oecrophy
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@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975620#Comment_3975620
Do you feel the same when a killers powers negate entire survivor builds or is this a one way situation?
What should I do? I just adapt to the situation. The game is getting more boring, that’s just how it is.As killer, I keep my pressure up— if it becomes to wild, and boring, i just try to end this match fast and get my pressure from somewhere else and if that means proxy and straight tunnel off hook. As survivor, that usually means: no interaction, no greedy or risky plays, just clean chases… and just rush gens and out
Everyone can play how they like and run whatever builds and stuff they want…
I mean..
That’s just how it is – every match you’ll run into things you might not like.You’re on the map with four other people .. and you verse all the time stuff you don´t like – that kind of stuff is just normal.
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@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975721#Comment_3975721
Lol, okay tell me what's the skillful plays of a clown? Throw down bottle and go fast, no counterplay on survivor side besides hope you get a god pallet.
Totally agree with you here. I mean, he's not even as strong as Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Billy, etc.—but ye, this is exactly the kind of direction I really don’t like: every change or new killer (Ghoul, I’m especially looking at you) seems to be designed to be super easy to play for the amount of value you get out of them.
The game just keeps leaning more and more toward being braindead and skill-less on both sides.
But hey, there are still alternatives...(And sp yup , I agree—many of the new or reworked killers really don’t take much skill anymore.)
My last 30 days of killer? No Ghoul, no Clown, no “new guy” in sight.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452799/my-problem-with-the-60-kill-rate-target
Thing is, many (if not most) killer mains would disagree with you. Plus, like you said, it snowballs. That's just a fact, and one of the main reasons why many killers tunnel. 3v1 is just simply easier than 4v1. The only way I see to fix it is to make MMR less binary, but they likely will never do that. They are fine with their KILL vs. ESCAPE binary MMR.
y..
The old emblem system was actually a good idea. They should’ve never changed it in the way they did—removing resets and de-pipping. It had plenty of flaws, sure, but the core concept and the direction were solid. They should’ve built on it (made climbing harder again) instead of scrapping it, imho.
The real problem is: if they ever brought something like that back (or maybe something totally new), players wouldn’t change. Their playstyle is already burned in—Killers and Survivors alike. I know I wouldn’t change mine either. If they made changes in that direction, I’m not just gonna suddenly stop tunneling or stop playing for my 4K. Not unless something drastically changed balance-wise.
I don’t really know what the best way to “fix” the current MMR system would be either. But tightening it up significantly might be a good start—right now it just feels way too lenient.
And absolutely, they should weigh more side-criteria than just kills and escapes. There’s so much more to the match that should factor into skill evaluation.
On the one hand, I do kind of miss the old system...
but..
Just bringing back a more fleshed-out emblem system at this point? Nah, that wouldn't work. Too many playstyles are already deeply ingrained
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975743#Comment_3975743
Again, it's not about forcing the 2k and 3k to occur. What's being said is these games tend to be the more engaging and rewarding to play, regardless of wins and losses, and it would be nice if things were often like that. This is probably because these matches likely have a more even skill range. If four average survivors and an average killer are put together, the game has a better chance of being more interesting and having less one-sided results. A 2k or 3k is the logical result of good matchmaking, rare as that concept is.
Here's one of my examples of a recent unbalanced game. This poor Nemesis didn't stand a chance. Bad matchmaking does not make for fun games and I think it's responsible for a lot of one-sided blow outs.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2CZ6452AV3PB/1986c61faa496-screenshoturl.jpg
Sure, bad matchmaking is a big issue. But: That Nemesis probably just experienced what a lot of new survivor players go through in their early matches. That’s something all PvP games have in common — even the ones with significantly better matchmaking.
When you’re new, you’re going to have a rough time until you catch up and start learning. And that includes going up against stronger players. That’s just how it is in every PvP game.
(When I think back to my early days in Hunt: Showdown — no sense for sound cues, no idea about weapons or the map, 20 minutes into a match and bam, one headshot from somewhere I couldn’t even locate — match over. My hunter? Permanently dead. And you lose everything. A hunter you’d leveled for hours, your entire expensive loadout, gone.)
That’s just the nature of PvP games — as a new player, you’re going to have a bad time until you learn. And honestly? DBD is still one of the most generous PvP games I know. It gives players more second chances than almost anything else out there.
Was that match boring for the survivors? Yeah, probably. That’s why we do need better matchmaking.
…
but..
But from what I can see on the screenshot, the match didn’t seem all that less interactive. Judging by the points, it looks like the Nemesis somehow just… kind of made it into the match and had his time.
a super one sided match looks more like this : (and y, should not happen for sure, safe safe.)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975731#Comment_3975731
You realize that if there are more 2k to 3k games, but the same kill rate, that the survivor team as a whole needs to lose more games, right?
Because the survivor team as a whole, wins on a 0k to 1k. So if the game is supposed to have less of those games, then it needs to have less games where the survivor team wins as a whole.
Sure, but if the survivor team wins as a whole, that’s on the killer for allowing it. (That's why I don't put much stock in all those stats. ) That’s not happening in my lobbies—unless I seriously mess up.
I don’t think things need to change just because some killers choose to be overly generous or passive, which is usually what leads to those 0–1k results in the first place. Super rare results -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975698#Comment_3975698
Noed is just pathetic but I have no big issues with it because it's 1) usually used by awful players who can be easily outdone and 2) I have the sense to not panic and go find the totem and cleanse it, if I wasn't the one on the receiving end and 3) nothing gives me more satisfaction than cleansing a Noed totem.
I'm talking about low skill/new players. I don't know why that part isn't coming through. Low skill killers have more advantages than equivalent low skill survivors. That's it, that's the whole point. Low skill survivors can't smell things like Blood Warden and Noed coming. They dont have the sense to avoid them. They don't know not to stand by the gate during No Way Out. But a killer with an equally bad understanding of the game can get a 4k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975700#Comment_3975700
Show me where OP said games should be "forced" to be at 2k. They said 2k to 3k is a better balanced match and the game should work towards that in its mechanics instead of an overwhelming amount of one-sided stomps. A suggestion to improve tha one-sidedness? Better matchmaking, better tutorials, and a training wheel period where new players exclusively face one another with crutch perks like Noed (and a survivor equivalent) found exclusively within that training ground. Once you hit whatever threshold, be it time based or accomplishment based, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim in the deep end.
Ye, sure. If you want to restrict it to “new player lobbies,” the killer is absolutely the power role from the start. No questions asked. They just have to chase, capitalize on survivors’ mistakes, and occasionally land a hit to get a down. Meanwhile, survivors need to learn the maps, camera control, tile layouts, movement, perks, killer abilities, and how to counter them. New survivor players will die. Often. And pretty brutally. It sucks, but that’s just the nature of the asymmetry and the problem at hand. You simply can’t balance the game around new players. :/ That just wouldn’t work.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975698#Comment_3975698
Noed is just pathetic but I have no big issues with it because it's 1) usually used by awful players who can be easily outdone and 2) I have the sense to not panic and go find the totem and cleanse it, if I wasn't the one on the receiving end and 3) nothing gives me more satisfaction than cleansing a Noed totem.
I'm talking about low skill/new players. I don't know why that part isn't coming through. Low skill killers have more advantages than equivalent low skill survivors. That's it, that's the whole point. Low skill survivors can't smell things like Blood Warden and Noed coming. They dont have the sense to avoid them. They don't know not to stand by the gate during No Way Out. But a killer with an equally bad understanding of the game can get a 4k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975700#Comment_3975700
Show me where OP said games should be "forced" to be at 2k. They said 2k to 3k is a better balanced match and the game should work towards that in its mechanics instead of an overwhelming amount of one-sided stomps. A suggestion to improve tha one-sidedness? Better matchmaking, better tutorials, and a training wheel period where new players exclusively face one another with crutch perks like Noed (and a survivor equivalent) found exclusively within that training ground. Once you hit whatever threshold, be it time based or accomplishment based, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim in the deep end.
If you ask me how to improve the “one-sidedness,” better matchmaking like you said, definitely. And a drastic overhaul of some perks, especially all that “anti-gen” stuff. Pain Resonance? It only works well combined with a down and a hook. Who gets that super fast? Nurse, Blight, Billy—basically all the top-tier killers. Meanwhile, M1 killers who really need anti-gen perks don’t feel anything at first... except—here comes the problem—in casual or new player lobbies, where people just feed insta-down after insta-down. Scourge hooks keep kicking. Same with Dead Man’s Switch. Good players know the perk and never touch an “unimportant” gen because they know it will be blocked. New players who don’t consciously counter the perk, or even get scared and drop the gen early? Hello, gen block. Most anti-gen perks are either just there to make already strong killers stronger or to mercilessly crush casual lobbies, yada yada.
But regardless of the new player lobbies, I think “one-sided stomps” are kinda part of the game to keep it intense. A single mistake can make the round costly—for both sides. That’s what keeps the game engaging. Anything else would be bland, washed-out gray, always the same “perfectly balanced” result.
but.. .. at this point, the killer role should feel like the bigger threat.
I mean..
The killer should have more potential for those one-sided stomps. The killer is the killer. Escaping should be tough (just my opinion).
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975709#Comment_3975709
This is the attitude that prevents discussion on balance and fairness. Even when the game is balanced to favor Killer by design, players will still defend tilting it even more in that direction to a fault while calling everyone else entitled.
Phew… Sure, balance is important, but balance in terms of “fairness”? This game is a 4v1, not a one-on-one. The killer is and should be the dominant, powerful role. They must always have the upper hand against a single player — that’s factor one. At the same time, they need to be strong enough to handle four individual players (1+1+1+1 = 4) and remain a serious threat.
And yes… against a single player, the game should be allowed to be “unfair.” The killer is the threat. It’s part of the game that people die “unfairly,” because it’s not a 1v1. That used to be different back in the day, when survivors could drag the killer around the map for 5 gens without much trouble… (not that I want those times back, though). just my pov.
If you give every single player in the match a “fair chance,” we’d be right back to where we started 2016.
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@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975713#Comment_3975713
Motions to the ghoul, clown, blight and the fact that there's already plenty of killers who don't really have to try and certainly don't need to develop skill. Or the fact that it's already a thing for killers in that the more gens survivors do the easier it becomes since there's less places to patrol.
I have no problem with those killers. The only time I’d say “I’m totally dead” is against Nurse on certain maps when the Nurse player knows what they’re doing. And even then, it usually gets tough the moment it is a bad map for her... but with the other killers?
That’s a you problem.And dying to Nurse on The Game or Silent Hill? I just try to stay in the round as long as possible. I make the best out of it. I know I’m not getting out. And that’s okay.
(The moment I play Nurse and get this maps: I make it quick and painless. You’ll be back in the lobby in no time.)
on the flip side:
Just like how on some maps, against certain killers, I know it’s a guaranteed Survivor win — unless the team messes up.
It’s the same thing, just the other way around.
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@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975709#Comment_3975709
Never said we should have it just for survivor but way to straw man my dude, really makes you look intelligent.
Then fine, for both sides. It doesn’t change anything. You messed up, you need a moment to get “back into the game.” And that comeback shouldn’t be cheap or handed out for free. Sometimes it should be so costly that you can’t even turn the round into a win. Otherwise, what’s left? Bland, washed-out matches with the same mediocre “average result” over and over.
"u should be allowed to make any mistake you want—but you still stay in the game. Thanks, BHVR, for letting me not have to try, not have to learn anything, not have to develop any skill, and not get punished when I mess up. "so please make this possible and thx bhvr".
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@AbsoluteMeghead said:
Fully agree with you, there should be catch up mechanics implemented to prevent the easy snowballs.
I want to play super bad, make tons of dumb mistakes, feed the killer early, misplay everything so that the killer even gets the chance to snowball...
...but I still expect built-in comeback mechanics to save me from the consequences.
Free of charge, handed out generously by BHVR. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975694#Comment_3975694
This forum thread is saying the game should force most games to be a 2k.
How do you think the game could force less 0k and less 1k situations? I claim it would need to dramatically increase the number of deserved kills. If you have a different solution, please let me know.
EVERY kill is deserved.
Just because you happen to have a one-shot on you in a certain situation doesn’t make that kill “undeserved.”and to anyone still playing this game even somewhat seriously:
Don’t let anyone tell you that anything you achieved as killer in a match was “undeserved.”
Ehw. :/I... I’m tired.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975646#Comment_3975646
You're either missing the point or avoiding it. Evasion and chase-winning don't equal victory, and flashlights require practice and skill. "Undeserved" is the key word.
Noed is an example of a crutch perk for low-skill killers to get underserved downs/kills/wins. What is the low-skill survivor equivalent of Noed for endgame? What cheat card does the game give a survivor whose straight garbage so they can pull off an undeserved victory?
NoED is uNFaiR?” We’re really still having that conversation in 2025? Come on.
It only works if the survivor team brainlessly rushes into the NoED camp at the end. Just be smart about the last gen — if you can’t rule out NoED, take a second to check for a totem before rushing the exits. Plus, you see the aura now.And if the totem is next to the hook? The killer gets a kill. Okay? What now? He’s the killer. He’s supposed to kill.
And on the survivor side? How about a sexy little 4% right at the open gate?
Fair?
Hatch spawning right in front of your face?
Fair?10000 second chances for survivors..
fair?
What about all those boosted RNG situations where the killer literally can’t do anything — no matter how well they play — unless the survivor makes a huge mistake mid-chase?
fair?
“Just chase someone else.”
Ye, and what if the next person uses the exact same busted structure?fair?
And to even get that “evil” NoED, the killer has to catch me in the endgame. That’s a won chase. That alone already makes it fair.
This community nowadays, damn.. ouuuf, big OUUF :/ ... Sometimes I miss 2017.
Back when you got old-school facecamped. The maps were cracked, sure, but you knew one thing: You got one chase. One shot.
Screw it up?
→ Facecamped.
And if your team didn’t bring old BT, insta red mori and you were out
Survivors today don’t even realize how much they’ve been given — and they just keep asking for more, and more, and more, and more...and more
“I want my free escape goodie, no matter how bad I play!”
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975627#Comment_3975627
Escaping the killer, sure. But Unbreakable only works once. Use it, then get slugged again. Now what? Dead Hard just prolongs chases with an extra health state. Sabotaged hooks respawn. OtR and DS don't work in endgame. These perks will buy time, yeah, but I'm talking about escaping the match. If the killer doesn't want the hatch to spawn, then it doesn't spawn. The only possibility is waiting out a slug death and in that lengthy time, the killer will likely find you. Which is why the game needs a quick bleedout option.
And you're examples always involve meta perks being used by skilled teams. This is not the average survivor experience. Most are in soloq and not everyone runs meta. I don't use any of the perks you've mentioned.
You want non perk-independent stuff? How about fast vaults at windows in tight hallways that clearly weren’t meant for that?
Or just walking a bit so the chase doesn’t start and the killer doesn’t get a window block?
Or solid bodyblocks and actual teamplay in general? (I see a lot of that even in solo, honestly.) or crouch tech - is still a thing.But as surv most of the time all I need is my little pew pew :D
We're usually duoQ, but I play a lot of soloQ too. (full swfs always feels too boosted the moment u can stack all the good stuff perks, → escalation in some random lobbys is way more fun).. And most of the time, all I really need is my favorite "toy" + maybe Unbreakable just so the killer can’t pick up right away. That’s usually enough. Works in soloQ too.
Sure, if the killer brings Lightborn, then y — you gotta sacrifice this unsafe 50/50 filler pallets instead of relying on flashy batteries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWINf7lP88sIDk.
Sure, there are games where you just don’t escape.
But in a lot of them… that’s not on the killer. -
@drsoontm said:
A streamer who literally got mad (and shall remain unnamed) once proposed a hypothesis that the MMR system cycles through matches to give you in sequence: a hard match, an easy match, then a balanced match.
From my experience as a 4k hours player, I often find that the system doesn’t work as intended. I regularly face survivors who are so inexperienced they barely know what to do to escape me even when I’m playing “casually.”
Every now and then, I get a strong team that forces me to focus. After beating them, I’d expect the matches to get progressively harder, but instead I keep getting “babies” who clearly shouldn't be matched against me.
I don't know if the MMR is broken altogether but it is at the very least inconsistent.
"even when I´m playing "casually""
Maybe you’re playing too casual? As soon as people escape, you’re not meeting the MMR’s win conditions. But i know what u mean.. what I always notice about those “super baby lobbies” is that they’re typical backfill lobbies where people have already left 1 or 2 times. Then you suddenly get "just anything”
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975580#Comment_3975580
It's already easy for killers to get undeseved kills though, and undeserved 4ks. I've had endless matches where a killer gets little to no hooks, can't chase, can't land basic attacks and then their Noed kicks in and they get some skill-free downs.
On the flip side, there's no equivalent of this for survivors. Killers get to choose if the hatch even spawns. They just slug the second to last person and keep the game going until they get both downs.
undeserved kills
On the flip side, there's no equivalent of this for survivors.
DS+unbreakable, DH, otr, sg + ftp + bu, deli, shoulder of burden, backgroundplayer + breakour + sabo, mft, 4 percent (still), red syringes,
the newest fun fun "get away for free" surv toy conviction, backgroundplayer + flashys…
..
Should I keep going or can I start laughing now?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975472#Comment_3975472
When every survivor in the trial has one and drops them when you're 20m away? You'll spend minutes simply trying to get in a chase with someone. They're terrible to play against when optimized.
um… exactly. The problem isn’t finding people and keeping them tracked in a close-range chase.
but…
BUT: the game is already shifting into this early callout, early leave -the-gen and run, early W-shift meta — and Fog on top of that just makes the whole thing feel even less interactive between both sides.
And… um? not gonna lie — it feels like bad design when entire killer powers get shut down in very specific scenarios, just because of early W and Fog stacking.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975580#Comment_3975580
No I am asking for the game to be designed where 2k is the most likely outcome and not 4k or 0k.
…For what exactly? More “killer watch me leave” moments at the exit gate?
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975584#Comment_3975584
Look at all of the sports in the world. Look at all of the other popular PvP games in the world.
Do you know what causes people to get bored? Too many draw games. That is what you're asking for. Most people aren't going to want to play in a game where there are too many draw games. It's boring. People want a clear winner.
For example, do you think football would still be popular if most the games were draw games? Do you think Counterstrike would still be popular if most the games were draw games?
True. exactly this.
I always play for my 4K. No settlement for less.
“1–2 kills are still good” — nope.
“1 kill is fine, you had a lot of hooks” — also no.
If I go in as killer, I’m going for the 4K. Nothing less.
I’m not looking at stats or trying to keep that 60% kill rate balanced — I’m just here to kill. -
@crogers271 said:
I'm going to say what I said last time this came up.
I love that our community is comprised of some people who think BHVR is so bad at coding that they are incapable of addressing simple bugs, and others who believe they are such masters of coding that they can put in a more complex, intricate system that has avoided the notice of hackers and 10k+ hour players for many years.
Huh? The system isn’t complex. It’s already been datamined and exploited by cheaters. Until recently, you could even request your own MMR data through workarounds and decode the response if you were willing to put in the time to figure out your actual MMR
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Y, this whole system just needs to be fully disabled again — or at the very least, stop using public matches as a testing ground while it’s still so clearly broken. Innocent players are being punished for something that doesn’t even work properly yet.
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Not hard to track people and chase in the fog.. but the moment I play Spirit or Huntress, I start running into way more issues from the killer side. I’m not sure if it’s good design when an item isn’t strong on its own, but shuts down certain killer abilities. Like, that doesn’t feel healthy.
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Sure, none of this excuses the fact that some things just don’t work when they absolutely should — especially when it comes to certain bugs and long-standing issues. But I think we also have to give BHVR some cautious credit: keeping an asymmetrical game alive, especially when it comes to balance, is a whole different beast.
This isn’t Tarkov, it’s not Hunt. It’s not any other game where everyone can start a match with basically the same loadout. DbD is asymmetrical, and… I’ve also been around during that early period where the game almost died. BHVR somehow kept it going.
So yipp, I’m not trying to praise the devs too much… but I do know there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes here than in your average PvP game where you’re just balancing mirrored sides.
Sou umm.. I’m also super disappointed, sad, tired… just exhausted with a lot of things. But at the same time, I’m willing to say: many of you at BHVR are still doing a good job overall. There are a lot of people on the team putting in the work.
And somewhere deep down, I still have hope… maybe even trust? That eventually things like all the bugs, glitches, and the MMR system will actually be tackled properly.
Because once that’s addressed, I still hold onto the hope that I might finally see some of the much-needed balance changes I’ve been waiting for.Though I gotta say, sometimes as a long-time player you feel unheard, overlooked, and forgotten... the new players are the ones buying all the DLCs and skins, and that’s where the money comes from, huh? (No, I don’t wanna be unfair… but ehwwk :/ )
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Oh, I feel you. Been around since almost the beginning too, and y — I really miss the OG devs. I totally get your frustration. But I still have fun with the game and try to stay nuanced in my view.
I mean, the team and DbD itself have grown so much — there are so many separate teams now. Sure, I’d also prefer fewer bugs and glitches, more fixes, and fewer skins being pushed out all the time… but honestly, the design team isn’t really to blame for the things that frustrate me most.
All in all, considering we always get the pass “for free,” I think the design team is doing a really good job. As for the balance team… well, everything we experience as “balance” is really just a constant tug-of-war between the loudest voices in the community and a system that will never truly work until we have a proper, functioning MMR.
As long as evenly matched players aren’t meeting consistently, real balance will always be impossible. And I don’t even know how much influence the balance team has over whether we ever get an improved MMR — one that doesn’t just rely on kills/escapes, etc. Everything is so much more complicated and interwoven than it looks from the outside.
I just don’t think we can blame each individual BHVR team so directly. It’s all just… yeah, noodle salad — not just in the code.
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@sinkra said:
Finally survivor has some form of counterplay which is also skill based. I quit a while ago but this single item makes the game fun again for me. Since survivors are 80% of the playerbase it would be a good idea for devs to keep making the suvivor experience more dynamic and fun instead of pandering to killers all the time.
what u can do..
Against some killer abilitys it’s definitely situationally super strong. I was playing a bit of Spirit earlier, the fog vials and that muffled sound really gave me really, really trouble. I’ve also had Huntress give me problems with the fog at long distance a couple of times. So ye, the item is definitely not useless if you use it right, I’d say. But using it as a pure “stealth” item? I’d be careful with that. Expect that if the killer is close, they’ll still have no trouble tracking and following you. That’s not so hard .. but y, against spezific killer a strong item. - no doubt.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I love it it brings some stealth back and helps with tunneling.
punishing tunneling doesn't help you need to remove killer agency to even tunnel. cant tunnel if you can't see where the unhooked survivor went.
Eh… do you really think so? I personally don’t have issues with the fog — tunneling in fog isn’t a problem, once you’re close you usually don’t lose survivors, even with double fog. But: if the fog denies my killer abilities too much (like Huntress’ long shots, for example), it kinda motivates me to just go for a quick, clean end to the match — and then maybe even tunnel straight. So y, I’m honestly surprised so many people see it as “tunnel help.” Often it feels like the opposite, doesn’t it?
(same with people who w-shift super early and just vanish into the fog. Guess where the pressure comes from then? The hook and the tunnel. Also, ye, funny item — but as tunnel help, it can backfire real quick.)
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@Dadeordye said:
I mean the game is broken in so many lvls with bugs from TWD chapter…
Why play this game in it's current state?
You may say "no other games do/play what DbD does", but I rather play a completely different game than the broke mess DbD is right now.
NOTE: you saw the title and thought it was another of those "if you are miserable playing DbD you should quit", right?😄I don’t think it’s that bad.
If the bugs annoy me too much, I just switch to something stronger. If worse comes to worst, Nurse. Yeah, she’s bugged to no end too, but Nurse is still Nurse.
So y, just adjust things a bit. Its still fun.
@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975271#Comment_3975271
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975269#Comment_3975269
What the hell?
I'm not playing right now just because of the damn non chase bug. It happened in 60/70% of all my matches the day the last chapter dropped, so I simply gave up.
Also BTW Fog Vials are pretty bad. I can see clearly inside their mist.as huntress and Pinhead can be seriously annoying when used right.
but only really annoying at long distances. So overall, no big problems with the FOG vials from my side too
(It just limits the playstyle a lot in some rounds with certain killers.)
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The typical mid-MMR problem, where everything just ends up.
New players (smurf protection), good players who play a lot of solo queue and can’t climb out, all those bad "wannabe bully SWFs," bad SWFs in general, good SWFs who always throw at the end because they refuse to accept that maybe someone has to die...
Super bad players who only play for their personal escape and "sweat" their way up the MMR, and super good players who don’t give a damn and are down for any YOLO endgame play and just die for no reason.Mid-MMR is just a complete disaster.
(But y, even then — for the sake of short queue times and those typical backfill lobbies (which are a huge problem too) — sometimes you just get whatever.)
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DeadByDaylight-backup-2025.07.31-00.15.41.log DeadByDaylight-backup-2025.07.31-00.30.56.log@Rizzo said:
Could you please attach the logs?
To find them:
- Press the Windows Key + R to open the "Run" command.
- In the text box paste the following: %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\DeadByDaylight\Saved\Logs
- Click "OK" - this will open your Dead by Daylight Logs folder.
- If it does not open the Dead by Daylight Logs folder, it may mean that when installing Dead by Daylight you chose to save your files somewhere else and will need to check there.
- The file called "DeadByDaylight.log" is your log file
Thank you.
(hope that are the right logs.. its always this "vacuum back" bug)
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But y... as soon as efficient survivors get a bit of breathing room and feel no pressure, an average match goes for like 10 minutes.
Where exactly are you supposed to find the time for multiple hooks and multiple chases?
And let’s be honest — it’s usually not the killer who’s setting that pace.People forget that there's an entire video game that is covered by "not tunnelling".
But this isn’t just something killers alone decided. Absolutely not. A lot of survivor groups have figured out that maximum efficiency wins the match. Survivors don’t play for longer rounds, more interaction, or fun, extended chases anymore. They stick to gens until the very last second and are totally fine giving free hits, free downs — sometimes even just straight-up committing to a gen right in front of you.
But then what? The killer is supposed to... what, be nice and completely ignore the hook? Be nice and go after the freshly unhooked survivor instead? I’m just tired. So tired. And honestly, I’m scared of any upcoming changes related to this.
edit: idk..
When I read stuff like that…
That the killer shouldn’t go back to the hook, that the killer should let a free recovery happen under the hook, that the killer is supposed to overlook everything—
but survivors can and should do this, can do that, are supposed to… and actually get away with it…I…
I really think the forums aren’t good for me.
I start up DBD, pick Nurse, and just go do unnecessarily unpleasant and very dirty things—
just because…
yeah, because—why even not, at this point? -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975222#Comment_3975222
So FYI I've only watched up to the point that Marigold dies because that's, I feel, most relevant and I don't have unlimited time, I do apologise.
The first thing we need to note is that this is explicitly a bad position you should be attempting to avoid. That's not to say this is a bad example - these things happen, it makes this quite a good example in some ways - but it is important to note that a good chunk of any advice anyone would give here is preventative, not reactive.
Y'know, don't be in this position. Don't get flashy saved, don't overcommit to that chase, etc. This is the situation you were in, so this is the situation we'll respond to - it just needs to be noted.The second thing to note is that you're playing a very weak killer. That's not to say you shouldn't be doing that either, but rather to note that there are a handful of killers who just have fewer options. That said, Sadako has options here too, so let's get into those.
While watching this I was initially thinking of a bullet pointed list - feint chasing Marigold and hit David while he's out of position, leave Marigold on the ground and harass whoever's going for the save, proxy camp Marigold to chase David before he gets the unhook - but honestly I think I can sum it up more neatly than that.
This is a hyper aggressive flashlight squad (at least, David is), so use that. They're going to put themselves out of position, it happens multiple times in this video; David was giving you the freest hits of all time, and it's only because of Sadako's lack of collision that it wasn't the best call to hit him and then use Marigold as bait. Broadly speaking, against teams like that, if you couldn't tunnel for whatever reason, that's how you do it. They're going to get cocky, they're going to give you free hits.Slugging is also quite a good call against teams like this. Whatever BHVR's doing about slugging in the future, they've at least said that slugging in situations like this is something they're trying to preserve, so that should hopefully remain an option going forward. They want flashy saves, ergo they'll be lingering around near a down, ergo you can get some free hits on them that way.
You mention defending gens but honestly I wouldn't recommend it. They're not your objective and you can't really stall them that much anymore, it's almost always better to focus on survivors and only use gens as bait.Obviously, these teams are going to be hard to beat. They're good players, they should be. Hard doesn't mean impossible, though.
Also again, a good chunk of playing against teams like this is trying not to be in this situation to begin with. Also also, again, part of the ideal outcome here is Sadako getting buffed/reworked to be better at handling this; multiple other killers wouldn't break a sweat here and that is a problem with Sadako.(As an aside what was the music playing at the start? I liked it)
y well, that situation just happens. I start the match → I find someone. That’s always the situation. (The match wasn’t even that long.)
The only way to “avoid” that position is by dropping the first chase, but in my opinion, that only makes sense if the structure is really strong. Avoiding that first chase? I mean… she was super out of position.
Yeah, I should’ve avoided the flashy save (and brought better perks instead of meme stuff). That was a mistake. A costly one.But: David gave me a lot. He made a huge mistake on survivor side (just by not doing gens).
And ye, while tunneling I actively used Sadako’s lack of collision to my advantage so David couldn’t bodyblock me.
Any hit on David would’ve just meant free distance for Marigold, and I wanted her down.
I think if he got a clean bodyblock in there, that would’ve cost me too much.I mean, it’s all speculation, but if I had slugged Marigold and gone for David instead, maybe I’d get one hit, maybe, and then he’s out. And then there’s the risk that she getsnack up again with Unbreakable—or someone comes in with For the People and Buckle Up or whatever. All that good stuff we’ve all seen.
Or suddenly I’ve got two people with flashies trying to deny my pickup while someone else slams the last gens.
I’d rather just take the kill, make it a 1v3 situation. Because once 4 people are back on their feet… you’re not holding that.
At least not with a weak killer.Sure, a 1-2k might still be doable, but if I go in as killer, I want my 4k.
(Doesn’t mean I’ll always get it, of course.).. the song: slipknot - if rain is what u want :D
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975143#Comment_3975143
This feels like a big assumption. Just because people don't take thier role in a video game as though it's a God-ordained task doesn't mean they're intentionally keeping their MMR low so their games never become hard. The MMR doesn't even seem to matter much. I'm average at 60% kill rate and I get 4 clueless soloq noobs one match, then a psychotic 4-man with complimentary builds with specific team roles the next. My survivor 4-mans, though not sweaty but still competent, get paired with both baby killers and pros. My 3-mans acquire soloq fourths that range from people who probably just started playing and spend the game hiding to fantastic players who merge into the group beautifully. There is zero consistency. I will continue to assume that if it can't find anyone in your bracket quickly it will just put you with anyone. I played a trial on Knight recently--didnt even have him unlocked--and landed myself two p100s. I didn't have a grasp on his abilities at all, but they sure did.
t certain times of day, I actually agree with you. During typical casual hours (like afternoons or around 6 PM), you really do get a mix of everything — including a lot of kinda bad SWFs trying to get away with cheap stuff. But I mostly play EU nighttime (after midnight), and at that point you tend to run into the same players over and over again. You’ll still get some mixed lobbies in between, sure, but y — an entire evening can definitely look like that.
A few mixed lobbies here and there — but then it’s the same SWFs again and again. And… who’s surprised? Same story every time. Sometimes there’s that one random who ends up getting picked off first, usually without even the plan to fokus him. He just doesn’t have the callouts or the timing for leaving early like the 3-person squad that probably filled his lobby.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975191#Comment_3975191
Tunnelling is the strongest and most efficient tool you have because it's unbalanced. If chasing the survivor fresh off a hook wasn't significantly easier, it wouldn't be strong or efficient.
(It's not efficient anyway, it's just unbalanced enough that the inefficiency is difficult to punish.)
As for pressure on the hook, yes, survivors care. If someone's on the hook and someone's in chase, someone else has to go get the save- they could wait it out, but if they do, they're risking you getting the down quicker than they expect, which puts you in an even bigger advantage.
Note that this isn't foolproof. Survivors get to try and outplay you here, which they should, because it's a video game. There may be overtuned tools on either side, but those would need to be addressed either way, they're not relevant here.So, bluntly, of course you're allowed to pressure the hook. I mean, you're allowed to tunnel right now, we're talking in hypotheticals here, but hypothetically, of course! You've got a wealth of options for gaining pressure from a hook. The sole one even in contention is the one that is also a balance problem.
Chase someone else, chase the unhooker, proxy camp to delay (but not prevent) the unhook by chasing whoever comes for a save, hell, you could even hypothetically try to target the unhooked survivor at a later point than immediately after the unhook. People forget that there's an entire video game that is covered by "not tunnelling".ok. i´m always ready to share my pov.
https://youtu.be/56v5mBzZd7wMarigold was the first person I found. She wasn’t even good — free hit right off the bat.
Yeah, picking up there was a mistake, and the flashy save cost me. (I knew someone was there, but I had to risk it — otherwise she would’ve made it to a pallet.)
But sure — first chase, and nearly 3 gens done already. What now? Defend gens?What am I even supposed to do — try to build up Condemned while they just slam out the last two gens for free?
“Chase someone else.”
“Chase the unhooker.”
“Proxy camp to delay the unhook.”
“Go after the unhooked survivor later instead of right after.”Okay, cool. And what exactly would that have gotten me?
Chase David, who just wanted to show me how sexy the main building is?
Port away and go after Alan, chillin’ by shack?
Or maybe try to actually defend gens against an efficient squad?Please, do tell.
I’m learning.
The big bad tunneling killer is very open to learning. -
@etisatis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974721#Comment_3974721
This is a scoring game. The better you play - the better is a reward, and securing a kill asap will penalize you. Read the emblem descriptions.
And if you feel a need to assert a dominance, to prove, to “kill”, and perceive it literally - I strongly recommend you to see a therapist
Uh? Emblems don’t mean anything anymore — that used to be a thing back when you’d actually drop all the way back to rank 20 each reset. Then they switched to - only 1 colors and removed depipping, and at that point the emblem system was basically dead.
It also used to take you like half the month to grind back up to rank 1 back the days. Nowadays? You hit that in less than a week, and it’s just a few extra bloodpoints at the end of the month. That’s all.Emblems have nothing to do with MMR or anything else. Though safe safe, I do think they should’ve expanded on the emblem system instead of scrapping it entirely.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975173#Comment_3975173
The thing is, what the killer earned is that hook. If they want more than that, they should have to earn it again- and there are paths to that in the game right now, like dragging a lot of the team off generators by capitalising on the hook and spreading pressure.
What the killer didn't earn is having a survivor out of the match already, and while they can't force that literally the way they used to be able to… they can get there much, much, much easier than by chasing anyone else.
It's not a map issue because there aren't that many maps in the game where survivors have that many resources to burn, and those maps tend to be the ones that are unbalanced for regular play. Bring those maps in line, weaken tunnelling substantially, and we're in a much better spot.
The advantage that's too big isn't based on where you are on the map, really, it's based on the fact that you're getting a substantially easier chase with little counterplay. There are only a handful of maps that make a difference here.The cold hard truth is, you do not have to leverage the easy chase that comes with tunnelling to win. It's just a lot easier to win that way, and can cause trouble learning the fundamentals if you rely on it too much- I have a whole post about that particular topic.
People like to say "give killers ways to play differently and still win", but those exist. They're just noticeably harder, because they're not unbalanced like tunnelling is.Tunneling doesn’t just give a small advantage, usually it gives a very strong one. It’s not always the way to go, sure. But often, situationally, it’s simply the most efficient and strongest tool you have.
And… do you think survivors really care about pressure on the hook? If you push that too hard, they just keep working on gens and come back last second. So where’s the pressure when you start chasing a fresh hook? None. The fresh hook is in chase, three survivors feel zero pressure and just laser-focus their gens. Then you get the next fresh hook and… what’s next? The same thing all over again.
Y.. i mean.. um.. eventually all the gens get done, and eventually the exits open if you don’t build pressure elsewhere.
And regardless: y, I get a lot of casual lobbies too for certain hours (which is why my kill rate is very high -because I usually don’t take much consideration for those lobbies ). But you never know what kind of really and even the worst bad players people bring into the game. Usually not because of skill, but stuff like, “Oh, who wants to get chased? I’ll just go down upper main and then let’s have fun with some sabo plays)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_b8Z-pz9kAnd y, even if you’re thinking "survs are super bad", “no need to sweat this one” and letting some bad players slide — you never know what’s coming next. Nah, not on my match.
So am I supposed to just let these “we’re trash but we’ve got our perks” squads go for free, just because I’m not allowed to pressure the hook once I’ve earned it? Or when anti-slugging kicks in? Nah. That’s Nurse time from my side the moment bhvr bring this changes.
(And y — if I hadn’t immediately slugged again, that Ace would’ve sabotaged the next hook right in front of me.) -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975100#Comment_3975100
You're still abstracting out from the point really heavily here, especially with the sneaking up thing. If you don't think that's doable, alright, I'll cede that point to you - the killer cannot sneak up on good players. We'll take that out of the list of examples of what the killer can actively do to give themselves an advantage, that doesn't change anything about my point.
So, the only thing that's on track here is questioning whether the chase is actually easier, to which the answer is pretty much just "yes".
Your error in reasoning here is that you're imagining the best possible scenario for survivors, a scenario where the killer only gets a noticeable advantage instead of a huge one, and basing everything on that. So, let's take a step back and work from the actual first step here.Someone has just been unhooked, and the killer is chasing them.
Absent all other context, the killer has a massive advantage here. The survivor is injured, being a one-hit down after ten seconds, and they're extremely out of position, the killer's right on top of them. This, unambiguously and with no room for argument, is a chase that heavily tilts in the killer's favour.
There are some pieces of context that may lessen that. For instance, the survivor MIGHT have anti-tunnel perks, each of which individually makes the chase a little harder. OTR forces two hits for a down instead of one, though you still get the first one for free, DS can give them another shot at playing a tile if they're downed near enough to one, and so on. None of these make tunnelling as difficult as chasing the unhooker, of course, but they exist.They could easily NOT have those perks, though. Perks aren't basekit. If we follow that line of logic, we arrive at an unavoidable conclusion - every survivor player is only allowed to have three maximum perk slots or the killer can just tunnel them out of the match. That is, obviously, a bad outcome.
Another piece of context is that they MIGHT have teammates who'll bodyblock for them, but again, that just changes the value. Instead of an easy chase for free, the killer gets to occupy multiple survivors and dramatically slow down generators for free. Slightly better, but still free value for nothing.
They also could easily NOT have teammates that can/will bodyblock for them, though. Even if they're willing - which isn't guaranteed - they might not be in position to do it, if they're clear across the map. It's also heavily killer dependant, since some killers excel at downing multiple survivors grouped up.
If we follow THAT line of logic, we arrive at "The killer gets massive value either way, and if you play against Leatherface, Legion, Trickster, etcetera, they also win outright".It's important to remain focused on what matters in this conversation. The only relevant question is if killers get too much for chasing someone after they're unhooked, and there's no way around the fact that the answer is "yes". Directly or indirectly via the threat of it happening, killers can get massive impact for not actually doing anything to engineer it outside of being near the hook.
Obviously, beating strong survivors is hard. It should be - they're skilled players. While there's a small degree to which that is relevant when talking about how to FIX the issue of tunnelling, it's not relevant to whether there IS an issue with tunnelling.
So basically… the first advantage, being able to control a hook at all, is something the killer earns by winning that initial chase. That’s why I always say: folks, the first chase is the most important—no free hits, no pallet greed, better to drop pallets early and play it safe. That’s the point in the match where the survivor team is strongest.
Once the killer has a hook, they definitely have an advantage, but it’s an advantage they’ve earned at that moment.
The Killer has earned that advantage by winning the first chase… (and the first person still has all the resources on the map available, plus every good tile to use).
Is that advantage sometimes too big? Especially with hooks in certain areas? Yipp, I get you on that. Those situations happen, and you can kinda predict where a “sexy dead zone” hook might be, and try to push survivors into those spots. It’s costly for the team when it happens—and yes, sometimes it’s way too costly.
At that point, “too easy?” — I actually agree with you on that.
But that’s the huge issue with generally poor map design (not that the killer plays around the hook) —there shouldn’t be absolute death zones or on the flip side super OP survivor RNG. And y, I agree that tunneling is way easier on some killers, and it takes very little effort. But many of those killers are actually pretty weak overall and lack control otherwise.
On most maps, a Bubba can lose 4 generators in the first chase, and I don’t find that too wild.
And that idea of “the killer doesn’t have to put in much effort just because they’re near the hook” — give many killers ways to play differently and still win, without having to rely on survivor mistakes or slip-ups, and that changes the game a lot
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975065#Comment_3975065
As you can see from these responses (and past ones), plenty of people who play killer disagree with these methods. You're not defending the killer side, you're defending your personal tactics. Changes to slugging, camping, and tunneling will have little to no affect on my killer gameplay but they'll have a decent affect on my survivor gameplay. 80% of a match is survivor players. More of them are needed, they shouldn't be disadvantaged by the way certain people have chosen to play.
As I've stated, I go after the rescuer, not the rescued. My experience as survivor is usually that same treatment. Most killers don't actively hard tunnel in my matches. Changes would be made to deter a smaller fraction of players.
And if you're dying on the hill of hard tunneling and slugging, it doesn't sound like you're currently concerned with anyone else's fun anyway.
I get it. A lot of killer players — probably most — just play chill. They just don’t care about their 4k.
That’s totally valid. Different playstyles, different perspectives. Many don’t even want to reach super high MMR (especially with basic M1 killers or other "weaker stuff") and start facing really strong SWFs. I understand that. It’s completely fair. For many, it’s just more fun to stay in a comfy low MMR range, where you can casually play for 2 hook everyone and still maybe win. I totally accept that.
It’s not fun when you start running into people who abuse every little thing and know exactly how to make your life miserable
ike they exactly know how to mave that the chase doesn´t start, to deny you a window blocker, or practicing every little “tech” (which often are just bugs or glitches) in KYF until they’ve perfected them. That kind of stuff can be rough, for sure, but still, I personally enjoy more the challenge of going up against good teams. The ones who understand how to counter my ability, how to play around my perks, who really give me a proper challenge — rather than teams that don’t even realize what killer I brought, don’t know how to counter anything, and basically just let the match “happen” while hoping gens go fast enough to carry them. Those matches don’t feel impressive or rewarding.
(What’s the point of ending up in constant -2000h player babylobbies against people who can’t really challenge me?)
and. … you already often get casuals mixed in during casual hours anyway. So what’s the point of those matches where both sides just go through the motions, and no one’s really ready to fight?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975025#Comment_3975025
You're missing the forest for the trees with a lot of that.
This is the issue with the "quote a sentence fragment" approach, for the record. I had a coherent point that everything I was saying was attempting to support, not a series of disconnected statements that stood on their own.
For instance, you talk at length about how sneaking up on someone isn't possible against good survivors, but that's not exactly relevant to my point. That was one example of a scenario where a killer had a similar advantage to tunnelling but actually did something to earn it- unlike tunnelling, where they return to the hook and get an easier chase for free.
You can't dismantle a cohesive argument into component sentences like that. It doesn't really matter how feasible it is to sneak up on survivors when the point is that hypothetically, doing so would give you a fair advantage because effort and skill went into obtaining it, which is contrasted against the unfair advantage you get for free when you chase someone immediately after an unhook.Now, you're on firmer ground talking about the team coming in to help, but you're missing a few very important things there. Primarily, you're missing that this still doesn't address the advantage the killer's getting for nothing here; they're now managing to occupy multiple survivors without actually having to do anything other than take the easy chase in front of them to get it. They're still getting inflated value for what they're putting in.
In addition to that, and building off it - this isn't a separate statement - this means that the counterplay to something the killer gets for free is locked behind coordination, which is something not every survivor has access to.At best, the conclusion you can draw here is "people on comms can overcome this balance problem fairly consistently but at significant cost to their efficiency", not that tunnelling isn't a balance problem to begin with.
For everything else, it really feels like you're attempting to argue that tunnelling isn't a balance problem because you're personally fine with dying early because the killer tunnelled you out, and it doesn't really work that way. The relevant thing to consider is how much of a benefit is the player getting versus how much effort they're having to put in + how much effort the opponent is having to put in to stop them.
For tunnelling, the answer is the killer is getting a lot (an easier chase, which leads to either a much easier hook or occupying the whole team for extra slowdown) for basically nothing (walking back to the hook when the unhook happens) while the opponents have to pull out all the stops to try and prevent it (massively outplaying in chase, pulling in teammates for coordinated bodyblocks, preparing ahead of time with specific perks).
That's the important part. How much are they getting, how much effort does it take to do it, how much effort does it take to stop it.
Saying "You might die early, them's the breaks" doesn't really support that tunnelling isn't a balance problem- at best, it suggests that it doesn't really matter if the game's unbalanced or not.
Which, certainly, nothing wrong with that perspective, it just doesn't contradict my statement. I'd disagree with it, of course, but that's how it is sometimes.Ye, sure – if the killer actually manages to sneak up, especially against a coordinated SWF: GG. But... the time they lose trying to pull that off is insanely costly, and the “sneak” usually just isn’t worth it. It’s a massive gamble, and if they lose that gamble, it hurts a lot. And you loose soo much time. And time is one of the most valuable resources in this game.
You say that’s “deserved” in contrast to tunneling – because with tunneling, the killer “gets an easier chase for free.” But the real question I’m asking is:
Is this chase really easier just because you tunnel?Yup, sure, one health state is gone – but now you’re dealing with a ton of perks that only activate post-unhook. You have to work through that first. (eat this ds or otr, or what else they bring) And the moment you tunnel, someone on the team is usually already moving in to help – perks or not.
Isn’t that actually way more the killer has to “work through” than just a normal 2-health-state chase? So is this really "for free"?
That survivor may have one health state less, but they come with a lot of other stuff – protection, buffs, and probably backup.
So no, I don’t see that as a “free” or “gifted” easy chase. Not in my Pov.And back to the sneaking-up example:
The advantage you gain from it often costs you so much time, that the investment in that play can easily lose you the whole match. It’s a high-risk move – and even if it works, you’re often thrown into a really disadvantageous position afterwards.So you pulled off a high-risk play… for almost nothing?
Sure, sometimes you can snowball like crazy from those situations — but I don’t like building my gameplay around hope and coin flips.That’s the kind of stuff for people hunting funny jumpscare-into-team-wipe clips with plays that maybe work once every 20 games if they’re lucky.
But when I load in, I usually play for the win — not for some flashy gamble like that.
and..
I get and agree with your point about the “advantage the killer’s getting for nothing here” — same deal for survivors, too; they get plenty of free advantages from all sorts of things BHVR hands out. So why is it suddenly “big bad evil” the moment the killer gets just a little bit of free advantage?
and y, — you get this advantage u use the hook: you either get a 3v1 or keep multiple survivors busy at the same time.
But.. That’s what you have to do. If you don’t manage one of those, you’re probably losing the match against good players. It is what it is. That’s what you need to do if you want to win, and you can’t just settle for “eh, I don’t need kills, a few hooks are enough, maybe I get two kills the moment i´m lucky.” (Or I end up with a 4K because the team totally messes up (ok to be fair, which happens a lot .. even good players tend to mess up sometimes pretty fast).
So. . sure, other stuff can work too, but then you’re heavily relying on mistakes and misplays from the survivor team (and honestly, even a lot of strong teams do give you those mistakes, so you could easily play differently and win).
But if you don’t want to rely on survivor errors, that’s just the way it is.I don’t want to rely on survivors making mistakes, hoping for misplays, or waiting for freebies. I go in to win.
And yes… about the rest: The killer should be the power role. People should die in the match as soon as the killer plays well, no matter how good the survivor is at that moment. It’s asymmetrical — 4 vs 1, not 1 vs 1. (And still, survivors escape way too often even when the killer played really clean.) But you keep talking about “effort”? Do you know how much effort it takes to beat a strong group? How costly even a single mistake can be, or just one hit that doesn’t connect? You act like the killer just walks back to the hook and everything is handed to them from that point on. That’s simply not how it is.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974973#Comment_3974973
Where exactly is the supposed balance problem?
We'd argue its the fact that the killer has a basekit repeatable way to heavily stack a chase in their favor while the survivor has no way to migrate that without A: a specialized perk/build to counter that specific scenario, B: great coordination by the team, C: having much more skill than the killer trying to tunnel.
Perks alone won’t save you once I start tunneling; they only help you reach certain structures. In the end, it comes down to your map knowledge, how well you use your camera, how cleverly you connect structures, and how strong you perform in the chase.
Team coordination? Y... and on some maps it’s absolutely crucial.
skill?
Talking about skill in DBD is always tricky. It’s just... not a super hardcore game. At some point, the skill cap is basically reached by both sides, and everyone understands everything the game has to offer.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974960#Comment_3974960
People have argued with you enough about this. If you can't understand--after many efforts--why the CHOICE to exploit unbalanced game mechanics against other players in a silly video game you might just be taking too seriously is gross then I don't know what else to say. We can only hope the future measures fight the small amount of bad actors who are incapable of fair play.
You don’t have to argue with me — but I’ll keep doing it anyway. I won’t just sit back and watch while only one opinion gets to define what balance in this game should look like, and I’ll continue to share mine. I hope that’s still allowed.
And as for so-called “unbalanced” mechanics… I don’t think it’s unbalanced for the killer to play around the hook. um.. , there are quite a few things on the survivor side that I personally find way more unbalanced.
and.. Just like you’re sharing your perspective, I’ll keep trying to defend the killer side with everything I’ve got — to make sure things don’t get taken away that, in my personal opinion, are necessary and a legitimate part of the game. What BHVR decides to do with all these voices is ultimately up to them — not up to us.
And what will I do if BHVR starts listening mostly to takes I personally don’t agree with?
I’m willing to adapt.
Uh… you’ll probably be seeing a lot of “Nurse only” from my side, with a heavy dose of “I don’t care about anyone else’s fun in this match.” idk. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974973#Comment_3974973
Happy to explain.
When the killer chases someone immediately after they're unhooked - which is typically what is referred to with "hard tunnelling" but imo is just what tunnelling in general should be defined as - the following things are true:
- The chase starts with the killer right on top of the survivor
- The chase starts with the survivor already injured
- The chase has a good chance (but not a guarantee) to start in a place that has fewer resources, since someone did just go down there
These are all pretty big benefits, if you get to start a chase elsewhere in the match with one of those things being true it's a chase that tilts in your favour. All three (or even just the two that are guaranteed) and the chase is just noticeably easier than it would be otherwise.
This, of course, doesn't inherently make it a problem. It's a problem for two main reasons: The killer didn't have to do anything skilful, smart, or even really anything at all in order to put themselves in that position, and the survivor player has extremely little they can do about it.If a killer successfully sneaks up on a survivor, or successfully makes a read on their pathing to cut them off, they get similar value and that's great, it's their skill being rewarded. Just returning to the hook gives them equal-or-greater value for free, and that's suspect as hell on its face.
Similarly, what exactly can a survivor do about it? Setting aside specific perk choices, which is its own can of worms, the answer is… not much. They do have ten seconds of Haste and Endurance, which is definitely better than it used to be! But, at the same time… there are a lot of killers on the roster for whom that is barely a deterrent, and a lot of maps with spots where that's severely lessened in its usefulness- think the average basement, or any building with a chokepoint.
If they were to have more options available, if it were closer to a regular chase with only one of those three bullet points being true, then it'd be different- they'd have agency and it'd be down to who the better player is and/or who plays this particular chase better. When they're tunnelled, the degree to which they have to be better than their opponent is pretty exponential, and that's not exactly fair or balanced.So, to recap: The killer gets a much easier chase, and the survivor gets a much harder chase, for zero effort or skill on the killer's part and with the survivor's only defence to be significantly better than their opponent in chase. That's a pretty clear balance problem.
Put short: Something not going your way in a match doesn't indicate a systemic balance issue. If, however, the same thing can be engineered to not go your way across multiple matches in the same way every time, that does indicate a systemic balance issue.
Wrote so much and ended up quoting the wrong people. My last post was actually meant for you.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974960#Comment_3974960
People have argued with you enough about this. If you can't understand--after many efforts--why the CHOICE to exploit unbalanced game mechanics against other players in a silly video game you might just be taking too seriously is gross then I don't know what else to say. We can only hope the future measures fight the small amount of bad actors who are incapable of fair play.
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974973#Comment_3974973
Where exactly is the supposed balance problem?
We'd argue its the fact that the killer has a basekit repeatable way to heavily stack a chase in their favor while the survivor has no way to migrate that without A: a specialized perk/build to counter that specific scenario, B: great coordination by the team, C: having much more skill than the killer trying to tunnel.
No, I genuinely don’t understand why it’s considered “gross.” Yes, sure.. when you’re up against a top-tier killer, you do need your team. And you need to trust your team. A good Blight will take you out quickly — that’s just what Blight does. He does Blight stuff. A short chase is to be expected. That’s something you simply have to know and accept.
Decent players know that short chases are to be expected against Blight, and they position themselves on a gen near the chase in case cover is needed or the person in chase runs out of resources.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7YuLUWOq7oIf a killer successfully sneaks up on a survivor, or successfully makes a read on their pathing to cut them off, they get similar value and that's great, it's their skill being rewarded. Just returning to the hook gives them equal-or-greater value for free, and that's suspect as hell on its face.
Cutting off paths, mindgaming, knowing how you deal with certain structures, beating people on specific tiles — that’s exactly what’s happening during a tunneling process by the killer (which, in my opinion, requires more skill than trying to sneak up on people). But a killer who tries to achieve that with “random stealth”? In most matches: nice try, sorry, you lose. In solo queue, maybe… (honestly, that annoys me even more than direct tunneling — constantly switching targets and hoping for an easy dead-zone snack where you don’t have to win a chase against me - and that just goes to show that different people find different things frustrating — personally, I find a full-on tunnel on me way less frustrating.)
so y.. "sneaks up on a survivor?" On some maps you might get lucky, soloq, y maybe, but as soon as you’re in a team, that attempt is completely denied.
Similarly, what exactly can a survivor do about it? Setting aside specific perk choices, which is its own can of worms, the answer is… not much. They do have ten seconds of Haste and Endurance, which is definitely better than it used to be! But, at the same time…
I often manage to reach some decent structures with my free BT. If not? Team? Hello? Where are you? Bodyblock, please?
If that doesn’t happen... I might die. Maybe even early.
Maybe I’ll just be a useless insta-down if I’m not running any 'anti-tunnel' stuff like OTR or DS. Sorry team, I tried.Killer’s fault? I’m more wondering: where was my team?
Especially on certain maps where you barely have any filler to connect structures (hi Coldwind, hi Haddonfield), you just know that the person in chase might need someone to cover them. Gens still fly anyway, usually.And then there’s the whole 'the survivor usually has a harder chase with no advantage' thing…
Well… I am the only target.
I know exactly where I’ve been.
I know what resources I’ve used.
I know what’s still up.
I know which pallets are gone.If they were to have more options available, if it were closer to a regular chase with only one of those three bullet points being true, then it'd be different- they'd have agency and it'd be down to who the better player is and/or who plays this particular chase better. When they're tunnelled, the degree to which they have to be better than their opponent is pretty exponential, and that's not exactly fair or balanced.
No options available? uuw?
Having the map to myself is a massive advantage – I don’t have to guess whether randoms have already created dead zones.The trade-off is: one less health state going into chase and being a bit out of position.(For the first part, I’ve got DH. For the second, ye… sometimes I just need my team.)
and yupp… sometimes, you just don’t get away.Things fall apart really fast, no matter how hard you try. It happens.Sometimes you die at 3 gens the moment the killer wants you dead.Sometimes it's just because I completely mess up my chase. (Sorry again, team.)
But come on? I expect escaping to be hard. I expect the killer to be a real threat.And I expect every single mistake I make to be brutally expensive.
So, to recap: The killer gets a much easier chase, and the survivor gets a much harder chase, for zero effort or skill on the killer's part and with the survivor's only defence to be significantly better than their opponent in chase. That's a pretty clear balance problem.
y? I’m not buying that.
Killer gets a slightly easier chase? Sure. But hey.. I mean… why not?
But look at what survivors can bring to make "things easier for them": DS, OTR, Shoulder of Burden, Unbreakable, Dead Hard, (other exhaustion perks) Vigil, For the People + Buckle Up, Soul Guard + WGLF, Hope, Background Player with flashy or sabo box, red syringes...
Survivors are loaded with tools to make things easier.
So nah, nope. nope, nope, big NOPE. I’m not buying that argument.And yes… I play survivor enough too (super important to play both sides ):
(in case you don’t believe me)
And y, still: as a killer, I still go back to the hook. I proxy camp if I think it makes sense, I slug if needed, and I tunnel hard when necessary or simple just when survivors make it easy for me.
I play my role as best as I can.
And as a survivor, I fight back and don’t make tunneling easy for the killer.
defence to be significantly better than their opponent in chase.
DbD isn’t rocket science. There’s a point in most matches where everyone is roughly equally stacked and has a decent understanding of the game. Sure, there are players who master their ability to the max — but DbD isn’t really a game that consistently rewards high-skill plays.
Like, what’s the point of pulling off something really hard and impressive with your power if most of the time things like DS happen at a distance where the survivor just gets away again anyway? It´s fun, its meme. But nothin more.If, however, the same thing can be engineered to not go your way across multiple matches in the same way every time
kay… but at that point, it’s really not the killer’s fault anymore.
If players are consistently dying without being able to do anything, or feel completely helpless, then that’s not just a killer issue — that’s a matchmaking issue.
It’s on BHVR to finally improve the MMR system and create fairer matchups, instead of putting all the blame on the killer.Because if going straight back to the hook/tunneling consistently feels that strong, the problem isn’t just that it happens — it’s who it happens to.
But it can't always be the killer player's responsibility to compensate for or balance out every single in-game situation — at some point, the game itself needs to provide a fair foundation.
The killer already has enough stress during the match. Even after a quick down, they have no idea how strong the rest of the team is (even the best players can have a bad first chase). They don’t know what second-chance perks the survivors are running or how coordinated the team really is.
He doesn’t know what’s coming once he gives up the pressure he could have had. It’s not the killer’s job to make sure everyone else can keep up — that's simply not how competitive pressure works in an pvp game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974960#Comment_3974960
"Hard tunnel" is a balance problem and also, separately, sucks to go against.
Dying isn't the issue, it's having your agency severely diminished or outright removed because of a balance problem your opponent is leveraging.
As far as things to get annoyed at in video games goes, that's one of the big ones.
I have a hard time understanding the point here. Where exactly is the supposed balance problem?
I absolutely get that certain situations in the game can feel frustrating. But just because something didn’t go your way in a specific match doesn’t automatically mean it’s a systemic balance issue — and just because it bothers you doesn’t mean it’s objectively a problem.
If we start labeling every subjectively frustrating experience as a balance problem, those terms start to lose their meaning. Not every (maybe for you) uncomfortable situation in the game is a design flaw — sometimes it’s just part of the core mechanics, part of the dynamic between two opposing roles.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974918#Comment_3974918
Same. BBQ is actually a great anti-tunneling perk. I wouldn't mind something like it being basekit if they balanced that by taking away unhook notifications.
What I really don’t understand is:
What’s so bad about accepting that in some matches, the killer… does killer things — comes back to the hook… and sometimes that results in a hard tunnel?
What’s so wrong with accepting that at a certain point in the match, someone has to die? -
@coolgue1 said:
Killers returning to hook immediately after a survivor is unhooked has gotten way too common after 1 gen pops. It's in basically every game now. BHVR made it blatantly easy for them — the killer gets a free HUD notification the second someone is unhooked, and that’s all they need to just turn around and go right back. No guesswork, no risk, no strategy — just brute force abuse of the UI.
And the funniest part? These are the same killers who come to the forums crying about their matches being “too hard.” Maybe if they actually tried to chase and loop like the rest of us, instead of hook proxying and tunneling off the HUD, they’d learn something. But nope — just abuse the unhook info and play the most boring style imaginable.
BHVR, please — survivors are getting burned out. You’ve created a system where killers are rewarded for ignoring chases and skill, and just hovering around hooks to farm pressure. If you want the game to stay healthy, you need to fix this.
Suggestions:
Delay the unhook notification for killers
Add aura blocking or deterrents for hook returners
Even minus blood point gain so they can't farm for BP because it way to easy for killer to get max BP doing this and u can get max BP easily playing normal
Right now, the killer role is being babied with free info and no consequence, while survivors are punished for trying to play the game normally. It’s not balanced.
And now.. I .. just try to not sound so harsh right now — because… to be honest… I’m so damn tired of this whole discussion:I’m genuinely sorry for always getting so involved in posts like this.But BHVR is planning future changes based on posts like yours.So many changes that, to be honest, I’m afraid of. Genuinely afraid.
I know it can be super frustrating to have the killer come back to the hook.But… please, please, if you’d do me one favor before making demands like in your post: please try playing killer yourself.And not just once or twice. Play for a while. Play against good teams.Teams who know exactly what they’re doing, who know your limits and how to exploit every single one of them.Not people hiding behind rocks in dead zones praying not to be found.Not teams afraid of you — but teams that actively fight you.
Then maybe you’ll understand what it is you’re asking killers to overlook.What you’re asking them to give up, all while good teams are using every single "goodie" BHVR gave them — thanks to posts like yours — against you.
Do you think good survivors are happy and grateful when you ignore the hook?Nope.They’ll just keep their OTR or DS in reserve — to “thank” you later by throwing themselves into your next chase full-health with two bodyblocks, basically saying:“Come on, chase me — I’ve got DS. And if you don’t want to, no worries, I’ve got Unbreakable ready and I’m lying in a pallet anyway.”
That’s the kind of “gratitude” you get for ignoring the hook.
They’ll still play super aggressively against you.The only time you’ll see a bit of respect from many players is when they’re on dead hook.Then, maybe, they won’t sprint into your next chase with DH and Unbreakable ready.
I know my posts tend to provoke a lot of people and usually end up farming downvotes.
(Ye, I know — the evil killer is just trying to provoke people by showing how hard he tunnels, right?)
But honestly? I don’t care.
I still feel like… I need to speak up.To fight back, in a way.Against all these changes that are supposedly coming — anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-this, anti-that.Basically: anti-killer.
And even though I understand the frustration survivors feel with certain things,I genuinely don’t believe we need even more “anti-killer” mechanics.
I strongly suspect you’re not playing in high MMR,and what you experienced in your match isn’t some meta strategy used to stomp survivors —it’s often what weaker killers in high MMR have to do just to stay in the game.Especially when they’re not playing strong killers or are missing key slowdown.
In your example, things might already look much less frustrating if survivors simply didn’t run directly to the hook after a person beeing hoked,or didn’t heal right under the hook(seriously, just take the time to run 30 meters into a safer area with better structures —suddenly the killer controls nothing there, and coming back to the hook is just wasted time).
Once you expect the killer to maybe come backand prepare accordingly instead of healing under the hook and praying —it often stops being such a big issue.
And in the lobbies you’re likely in, the killer often comes back to the hook just because they didn’t find anyone else.That’s not "proxy camping” or “tunneling” — it’s the result of failed info or pathing.You’ll notice all this the moment you start playing killer yourself.
So please, please, I’m asking genuinely —before you go asking for more changes, try playing killer.Try it for a while.Try it against good players — the kind that make you feel powerless.Then you might see why killers do what they do, and what kind of pressure they’re under just to survive a match.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974743#Comment_3974743
Think you got the wrong idea bud, I actually wasn't disagreeing with you. Tunnel if you want I really don't care it's your game
i was saying even outside of tunnelling there's many many reasons a Killer could go back to a hook.
I get it, there are lots of reasons to go back, and also plenty of situations where it’s tactically unwise. But if you keep going back for “many different” reasons, you’ll lose to strong groups.
When you do go back, you usually have a clear goal and clear target— and that’s usually not the fresh hook. Survivors gotta expect that. The unhooked survivor should expect to be the killer’s prime target now and avoid showing up near the hook if the killer has pulled away far enough.
The team has to be ready to cover if needed.
And:
Make Your Choice is kinda cute and all, but if it just gets you a fresh hook, you really gain nothing from it. You’re not stopping gens or putting any real pressure on the team. And the team knows you’re busy on that fresh hook — so the only things they’re focusing on right now are the gens.
If you go straight back to the hook to chase the fresh hook, you haven’t interrupted gens or applied any real pressure—you’re basically letting the unhooked surv escpe for free, you get nothing while 3 survivors get free gens. Sure, you can hope for a quick down on that fresh hook, but you can’t build your whole round on hope.
Good teams cover when you bring perks like Make Your Choice; they’ll double-team a critical hook in a dead zone and protect each other, so you won’t even get an easy down on the unhooker.
Anything else OP wants is just a wild fantasy from the “survivor main only” community— thinking the killer should never come back and just let a free reset happen under the hook. That only works in lobbies where the survivor team isn’t applying any pressure and just lets everything “happen.”
Against teams that actually fight back and work on gens, that just won’t work.
If you go straight back to the hook to chase the fresh hook, you haven’t interrupted gens or applied any real pressure—you’re basically letting the unhooked surv escpe for free, while survivors get free gens. Sure, you can hope for a quick down on that fresh hook, but you can’t build your whole round on hope.
Good teams cover when you bring perks like Make Your Choice; they’ll double-team a critical hook in a dead zone and protect each other, so you won’t even get an easy down on the unhooker.
You also have to expect that the killer will check the hook before the phase change — even if they’ve left earlier.
The hook is just as much a part of the game as anything else, and you have to expect the killer to use it to their advantage.
And the smartest counter, btw, isn’t giving the killer a quick down (because of gen greed) and handing them a hook in a zone that actually matters to them — but rather in one where they have almost no control over the rest of the map.
But most folks just straight up ignore that — they go down smack dab between 2-3 juicy gens, thinking “Gotta pressure those gens before the killer shows up,” and then get salty when you milk that hook value hard. Classic gen-greed move, and it’s handing you the advantage on a silver platter.
Most of the time, it’s really on the survivors. So there’s not much “sympathy” to be had.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974707#Comment_3974707
There's tons of reasons to return to the hook without it being related to tunnelling. I understand OP's frustrations but it's completely valid gameplay.
Killers returning to the unhook is effectively a way to pressure 50% of the survivor team as well as interrupt people who try to reset under the hook or maybe the hook is in a deadzone where the Killer can pick up some free hits or even downs. Maybe the killer's got perks like Furtive Chase/Make Your Choice that ENCOURAGE going after unhooking survivors.
The solution? There's no 100% solution but bring perks like Kindred to show your teammates crucial info. Bring babysitter or we'll make it to speed up resets/protect the unhooked survivor. Wait until the Killer's occupied in chase or pressuring someone off a gen before unhooking
I'm not gonna say it's strictly a 'skill issue' because it's far more nuanced than that.
Okay... I’m trying to follow you here. But like — what exactly do I get out of a fresh hook then?
If I go into a chase with the unhooker right after the save, how does that give me any pressure on the team?Because when I’m chasing someone right off a fresh hook, the rest of the team couldn’t care less — they go full laser-focus on gens instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN7lU_orSMA
So what pressure am I applying exactly? I'm down one hook trade, and the rest of them are zooming through gens like I don't even exist.my matches. what should i do?
So I’m supposed to give up my early pressure, go off and draw some pretty little traps somewhere while they casually get a free gen, a free unhook, and reset for free?
So I’m just supposed to watch one of the survivors chase me around while having fun removing my traps? And then what? My next down is a totally fresh hook… with maybe one gen left?
Teach me how not to tunnel and still have a chance to win. Killers ready to learn.
(And keep in mind, this was during the event — with all the crazy stuff like instant pallet breaks and whatnot.)
Just curious — would love to know what Furtive Chase or Make Your Choice actually did for me in that match.
Just curious
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@NekoGamerX said:
don't understand the idea survivors have with killers playing nice and fair? a lot time it don't feel fair on the survivor side either (what survivor do to the killer)
Don’t get it either. Especially since most groups actually ask for it anyway. :D
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@etisatis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974707#Comment_3974707
FYI the match reward system doesn't work the way you might be thinking. Same applies to the “pressure”
Reward system? When I’m killer, I’ve got a clear job: kill. That’s my role in the match. I’m not here to play some “skillcheck” party with friends—I’m here to do my job. And y, the killer role means doing the dirty work. That’s just what killers do.
Stuff that happens in a horror game with a killer role is just gonna get dirty. I mean, there’s a killer on the map — whether people like it or not, that’s just how it goes.
The killer’s literally in the match to… uh… kill, right? Like, what else you gonna do?
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Of course I come back to the hook if it makes sense.
You’re the easiest target at that moment — you’ve already been hooked once, you're one hook stage closer to death, and you're injured.
Tunneling you directly is usually the most efficient play. It’s not personal — it’s just how the game rewards pressure.In that moment, I'm your killer, not your teammate.
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@GeneralV said:
Honestly, my killer games were fine before the patch, but recently I had a really bad streak of games.
Now, I know I am playing one of the weakest killers in the game right now, but things were alright until TWD. I am still having fun though, just wish my games were slow-paced again.
sorry to hear you’re struggling. What do you think is causing it? The new item? For me, killer-wise, not much changed. Um.. I’m kinda glad survivors got some new toys — means less of those bodyblock-mid-chase into Red Syringe BS and less background player into flashy sabo spam. Makes chases cleaner and more manageable.
but yip, those rounds are just insane and super fast. Like always
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@Aiden_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974533#Comment_3974533
How about stop making stupid updates and start doing something useful ?
y..
That would be way too logical… like actually reworking the maps so both sides can have fair and fun matches, instead of just lowering the offering success rate.
But no .. just change it back? :/ — survivors can throw four offerings and keep forcing the same crap over and over again.
And ye, I get it — even survivors don’t wanna land on some of the worse Coldwind maps, Borgo, or Haddonfield. But guess what? Killers don’t either, and we don’t get to outvote them.Would be nice if all maps were finally reworked in a way that both sides can actually enjoy them — and then maybe map offerings could have a higher success rate again.
But let’s be real: not gonna happen. I’ve played this game way too long to still expect common sense from it.Simply changing the probability is just the easier way out. And as always, one side just has to eat ######### on a bad map.
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They recently changed it.
There’s now only a 20% chance that the offering will actually give you the map you want.