jesterkind
jesterkind
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- jesterkind
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Last time I burned a Hawkins offering was for Scratched Mirror Myers. It was the best map for that build, and I'm going to miss it quite a bit, rest in peace...
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Balance issues with boon totems aside, I don't see how any of this is the result of BVHR "going out of their way" to make the game unenjoyable. Hackers finding a security flaw isn't a decision they made, it's a risk of being online in general that BHVR may or may not be handling properly.
As someone else said, Boons don't promote camping and tunnelling. Killers who do those things instinctively will continue to do so, and killers who do those things when it's tactically necessary would be doing it anyway too. It's just a thing killers do, if Boons promote anything it's instadowns and committing to a chase instead of spreading pressure, and that's solely because of one boon perk, not the mechanic at base.
I don't know why so many people want to ascribe a bad gameplay experience to malice from the developers, it's such a weird impulse to have. If BHVR are worthy of any criticism, and they are, it's more to the tune of being misguided and very slow to fix things, not being malicious and purposefully making the game worse, come on now. People go on and on about how they should listen to the community, but if this is how the community acts, I wouldn't blame them for just shutting us out entirely. It'd be totally warranted.
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KermitNodding.gif
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They definitely need better pathing. Or at the very least, some kind of force-respawn if they're detected in the same spot for more than X amount of time, to help when they get stuck on things.
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I think you're on the money here- my suggested fixes would be to have kicking a gen be more impactful (maybe a 5% instant regression, maybe undoing regression actually takes a second to complete instead of being instant, etc), or to take a really critical look at how many tools there are to speed up generator repair so killers can at least base some strategy of knowing how long a generator will take to be completed with not that much variance.
Something should be done, though, and I do think it's the base mechanics that need to be looked at, not more perks to patch up the holes.
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The core concept of Dead Hard, used as it was presumably intended to be used - to dodge one hit - isn't busted or unhealthy. If Dead Hard is to be looked at, I'd suggest tweaking it to disincentivise using it to make distance, via some kind of brief cooldown after using it where you can't interact with pallets and windows.
Right now, the problem with Dead Hard is that the killer's time is at a huge deficit, so extending a chase by using it for distance can be a huge deal. My question is... should it be? Is that how the game should be balanced? Slowing the game down in general would immediately nullify how big of a deal Dead Hard is.
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I've been thinking about this since we first heard it was leaving - I'd hate to lose the layout and Trickster is missing a map, so that would be a great way to tackle both of those concepts.
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I've maintained for a very long time that Trickster should've had his title swapped with his power name - "The Showstopper" fits him so much better than The Trickster.
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The ability to dodge (certain) killer powers with DH is an annoyance, but it's not really even the main problem with the perk itself, let alone one of the bigger balance issues in the game.
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Go classic with it, get an Alice Cooper licensed cosmetic or full Killer/Survivor. That'd be pretty ######### cool, honestly.
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I'd be down for these as a new cosmetic, but the version of Myers in DBD is supposedly based specifically on the very first movie so I wouldn't want to see these become his base cosmetic.
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I genuinely don't think hexes are in a worse spot right now than they were before boons were added. They already got broken within a minute of the game starting for the most part, it's hard to get worse than that with new mechanics.
There's definitely no point to running a full hex build, and there hasn't been for a while unless you want to try for some goofy gimmick build. One or two hexes can still kind of work out if you're lucky, though.
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1: Definitely agree. While blessing a totem isn't strictly progressing the game in the same way that most of the other deactivation requirements, I definitely don't think someone should get to bless in your face and get to use their DS if you choose to try and stop them. Reasonable change.
2: Not the worst idea, but if there are no other dull totems then this won't really do anything. I think two better ideas (though there may be good reasons not to do either) would be to have hexes and boons linger on the same totem so survivors have to deal with the hex if they want the blessing, or to have snuffing a blessed hex temporarily reignite it until that totem is blessed again. A bit more decision making and back-and-forth.
3: This is also pretty good, but it does encourage someone to go off where you aren't looking to go make use of their powerful perks. The worst case scenario right now is someone blessing where there's already a generator done and people scurrying off to use it so they can waste even more of the killer's time. Maybe more of a timer on the totem instead, so people can choose to wait it out and bless that totem again if they want to?
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@aknitus said:
Does not make much difference other than the Game map. NHL is going away soon I think.
It matters on Midwich, as well as many maps with extreme elevation. Also... Nawkins Hational Laboratory lmao
I do think this is a pretty reasonable suggestion, honestly. The big problem with boon totems as a mechanic (not counting CoH being way too overtuned) is that the time investment from the killer can be way too high for the intended back-and-forth to function; this change alongside an overhaul to totem spawns would do wonders.
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@Marching_Tiger said:
you have got to be kidding me! bruh!!!! they should have made that more obvious!
Yeah, that one tripped me up too, it's worded super confusingly.
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Are you making sure to hit Space to grab them out of the trap, instead of smacking them with an M1? It only ticks up when you get a grab.
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I'll definitely play her but I don't think she's "main" material. I do anticipate having quite a bit of fun with her, though.
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Hard agree- I made a post about this myself a little while ago, Thrill is actually surprisingly useful against boon totems.
I'm looking forward to trying out some kind of build involving Thrill, Plaything, and Pentimento to see if I can get some actual stacks on that last one.
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I have had this idea for a little while now, but I really would like to see Monstrous Shrine become the Scourge Hook equivalent of something like Thrill or Undying; more intended to prop up and strengthen other perks while still doing something on its own. Here's my suggestion:
- Basement hooks now count as Scourge Hooks.
- All Scourge Hooks have the current Monstrous Shrine's self-unhook and entity progression debuffs.
- No Scourge Hooks can be sabotaged.
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Only somewhat similar but one time I had someone leave a toxic comment on my profile saying "You aren't good at the game, you just play Bubba. Learn how to play the game."
It's really funny what people get mad at in this game lol
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I super disagree with the assessment of the Twins here, they have one of the most interesting and unique kits in the game and I definitely don't think it's poorly designed at all. That being said, they do have some issues and I have some ideas for how to fix them - so I might as well comment on the others just for funsies.
Twins: First of all, Victor should immediately melt if he's stationary near a hook that you put a survivor on. This isn't a buff, it's probably a nerf, but it's such a cheap way of playing that it just shouldn't be possible. Beyond that, though- recently they gave Victor a brutally long cooldown after downing someone, to prevent chaining downs for slugging. I'm all for this, good plan- but the problem is that because you genuinely can't do anything during that cooldown, it incentivises trying to get more downs from Victor because you have to invest so much time into him. What I'd propose is making it so that the only action you can take during this cooldown is to swap back to Charlotte, so that you can go pick up that survivor you downed straight away.
Trickster: I don't really have much for him, I don't think he's actually in that bad of a spot. You'd have to rework him to avoid making him too OP, which is against the spirit of the question, so... nothing.
Legion: Make them move faster in Frenzy (and possibly vault more smoothly too), reduce the cooldown for their fatigue because good lord is it far too long, and give them a lower terror radius when they aren't in Frenzy. Play into their strengths- they're supposed to be swift and energetic, so let them operate more smoothly, and give them a better chance of getting that first hit in by lowering their terror radius so survivors have to keep more of an eye out for them.
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@Incarnate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2631755#Comment_2631755
Accusations or not, bias or not, they do keep adding things that just make it much harder for killers vs. survivors - and this is the way this boon system works currently and in relation to totem mechanics, it certainly does make it seem like they are biased. Why is the killer not be able to hard counter boon totems, when survivors are able to hard counter hex totems - they use the same totem system so why have they made it so killer can only soft counter - That's the survivor-sided bias right there. Sorry if this distracts from the discussion about to how to fix this, but it's just so lame that they keep on doing this.
Anyways...
Hex & Boon systems are different mechanics, but they use the same underlying system - the totem system, which is why it has such a devastating effect to hex totems builds and strategies. Since they use the same totem system, they're using the same inherent totem mechanics, so even with them being different mechanics on their own, they definitely have some inherent commonalities, like the interest from both survivors and killer to use them, but should both sides really be able to use them them? I think it's important to remember the role that totems have been so far for for the killer - a passive help for killers to complete their objective, because the killer is only one player and is against 4 players, hence the need to be able to have something being done automatically. But now the 4 survivor players can use the very same totems, which only endangers the killers game play, because the killer cannot use the same totems, and now even have to struggle keep them of using it because the killer can only soft counter it. But since the devs believe the survivors should be able to use the totem system, and thereby endangering the intended role hexes are supposed to have for the killer, it's necessary to make the killer able to choose between either cleansing or hexing a totem - which obviously will cause some issues. The need for stacking boon effects comes from the problem with being able to select which boon to bless a totem with but also that they're more who might want to use them , and it would be the same issue for the killer - being able to select which hex activate on the totem would be a problem.
- Boons should be a single effect - just like hexes.
- Boons should not stack - just like hexes.
- boons should only provide reasonable bonuses, not like the the ones they do now.
- Boons should not offer both abilities and passive bonuses.
- Boons should not offer perk benefits that there is a perk for as it would render it unnecessary.
- Boons should not be able to be placed on a hex, and a hex should be able to be placed on boon - only cleansing is an option if you want to get rid of ether a boon or hex. This way it forces either side to sacrifice a totem to stop the other.
I think it should be considered that any one that has a boon perk or hex perk can create a certain amount of totems in areas suitable for hex (typical spawn location) or anywhere suitable on the map (if the game can support it).
It should also be consider to rework boon mechanics, so instead of emulating perks and passive bonuses, that they instead could provide something more unique and much more thematically fitting, like for instance provide a new resource like mana which could enable spell perks to be implemented, or that they provide the creator of the boon a benefit while it lasts, such as a passive bonus or an ability. Instead of being something that makes all survivors be able to get it all.
So! Let's take a look at the intended mechanical function of hex perks, and the intended mechanical function of boon perks, so we can understand why this reasoning is flawed.
Hex perks: Very powerful, map-wide effects that directly interact with the core objective. Hexes (with a few exceptions, but that's more because hex perks have been around longer and had more experimentation) are for either slowing down generator progress, or helping win chases quicker, which are the killer's core objectives. Hexes don't give you break speed increases, for instance, because that's not a core objective for the killer, it's just a side bonus. To balance this, they spawn randomly on the map and can be disabled at any time by the survivors.
(As a brief aside, hexes are kind of in a terrible spot right now, which is worth mentioning when it comes to balance discussions. Half of the current problems with boon perks are caused by boons themselves, but the other half are caused by hexes already being weak.)
Boon perks: By contrast, while the effects are (ostensibly; some hexes are weak as hell and some boons are stronger than others) comparably strong, they work completely differently. They provide non-objective utility buffs in a limited area, to help the survivor evade or heal back up if they're not actively being hit within its radius. The balancing for these is a little more nuanced, at least in theory- survivors have to spend time setting it up, which means they're not doing anything else that might actively progress the game, and the killer can choose to snuff out that boon to make them waste even more time setting it back up again or the killer can use the boon as bait if they're stealth-inclined.
So with this understanding of what the perks are designed for in mind, what conclusions can we draw? Well, the first is that some boons are way too strong- and by "some", I mean Circle of Healing, it's far too powerful for the mechanic as it's designed. Shadow Step is pretty much ideal; CoH is far too strong, Exponential is almost certainly going to be pretty weak in realistic terms, but Shadow Step gives you a utility buff that requires you to risk the killer finding your totem mid-chase and snuffing it out after you're downed.
Another thing we can conclude is that your suggestions are wrong simply because they're trying to mash two only conceptually similar perk types into functioning the same way. There's supposed to be a back and forth where the killer leverages pressure gained by downs to go snuff the boon that they were just looped around, and the survivor team has to make the choice between actively progressing the game or going and setting the boon back up, even further complicated by the need to go for saves as well. If your suggestions are implemented, boons would be an incredibly stale and underwhelming mechanic.
I'll conclude with what I think much better changes to the boon totem mechanic would be: Adding either a cooldown after a totem is snuffed or a bless speed debuff for that specific totem so that the timesink aspect of the mechanic is emphasised even further, making it so that boon totems can't have enough verticality to affect both floors of a multi-story map, having certain hexes like NOED or Plaything snuff a totem to make room if they have to, changing totem spawns so there aren't any weird finnicky totems that the killer has to waste way too much time getting to, and finally... nerfing the hell out of CoH because it's a beast of a perk.
The idea behind boon totems is extremely good, we should be trying to make it work instead of completely abandoning it.
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@Incarnate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2631613#Comment_2631613
That really does depend on the match though, and what hexes have been brought. And with boon totems now being a thing, it just means whatever chance they had of actually being left untouched during a match, has been diminished to an almost certainty that they will be taken out during the match.
They don't want hexes to bee too oppressive, but they want the boon totems be exactly that, otherwise they wouldn't have made them the way they have. Plus, what the hell is up with them only providing the killer with an option to soft counter it, while the survivors can outright hard counter any hex totem - It's just more of the same awful survivor sided bullshit, sure it's whats bringing them the most money, but without killers the game is nothing - they should remember what role the killers actually fill for the game - vital role, and it is supposed to be hard playing survivors, but obviously they want survivors to able to bully the killer around and make it a laughing joke!
Boons and hexes aren't the same mechanic and comparing their counters like that is a recipe for just getting mad unnecessarily.
This mechanic is supposed to be interactive for both sides, and if it worked it'd be an excellent addition. Instead of being weird about accusing the devs of a bias, best to focus on how to fix this mechanic.
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The thing is that boon totems didn't actually do that much to harm hexes- they already only lasted a minute and a half at most, and they've been in that spot for a long time.
Hexes weren't killed by boons; they were already flatlining when the boons walked in. I will say, though, hexes have never been fully required for a viable build, they just have some of the strongest effects- there are perks that fulfil the same roles as any given hex that can't be disabled by the survivor. Except for perks like Blood Favour or Huntress Lullaby, I guess, but those aren't typically ones that people run.
It would be nice to see hexes get some love, though they'd have to be careful with how- they rightfully don't want hexes to be too oppressive.
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Very unbiased options here lol
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This is a decent idea for a change- the intended downside for survivors is that keeping a boon totem up when the killer's snuffing it is supposed to be a time sink, so making the blessing take longer each time is pretty reasonable in theory. My only concern is that you'd have to be very careful what the numbers are- you don't want someone to end up with a blessing time of multiple minutes, or at least not too quickly.
(Side note, we didn't need Pentimento to know that breaking totems on snuffing was a bad idea, but that does sharpen that fact)
I think this, or some kind of cooldown on the perk after it's snuffed, or my other idea of having a cooldown period on the boon where blessing takes way longer for a short period, would do wonders to balance the core mechanic. After that, there would only be making them not go through multiple floors of a map and a few minor balance tweaks to be made.
...As well as balancing CoH, which is its own problem.
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As part of one of the more recent streams (I believe the fifth anniversary stream?) the developers did say that they intend to overhaul the mori mechanic to be more ingrained in the core mechanics of the game.
The implication seems to be that you'll be able to mori without an offering, but the requirements are going to be different and more involved than just "get them to second hook first".
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I think Trapper should get to have his traps lightened or darkened appropriately for whatever map he spawns on. Kinda blue-y lighter traps for Gideon's and Ormond, sandy traps for Coldwind and Eyrie, etc etc.
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I think the impulse to have totems broken when they're snuffed is understandable, but that'd really make the mechanic supremely unfun and annoying for everyone involved. As Killer, you now have an annoyance you're incentivised to go out of your way to take care of, and as survivor you're at the whims of chance to see if your "safe haven" will actually last long enough to be that.
(Before the snarky comparisons, I also think hexes need looking at, bringing up how hexes are in a bad spot only proves my point further and doesn't counter it in the least)
More importantly than that, though, all of the potential back-and-forth and game slowdown would be completely tossed out. Survivors would no longer have an optional side objective they'll spend time on instead of doing generators, they only have to bless once and then it's back to sitting on gens for the whole match between chases because they have nothing else to do. Killers would no longer have an idea of where survivors are trying to be because the totem would already be broken and survivors are back to scurrying off into the shadows to regroup instead of trying to get value from their totem.
Boon totems (or more accurately, Circle of Healing specifically) do need to be better balanced, but this isn't a good way to do it.
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1: I don't really have the knowledgebase to answer that question, I've only been playing for a little over a year. Though, the time just before CoH was re-enabled but Shadow Step and the Hatch nerf were still in the game was probably the best period of the game.
2: If you'll accept a slightly vague answer, "spawns". Survivor spawns, totem spawns, tile/pallet/window spawns... those things have far, far, far too much impact on the match and are not in a healthy spot. Other than that, the amount to which you can stack healing/generator repair speed is pretty rough at the moment.
3: The pace of each match needs looking at, everything plays way too quickly, but everything else is great. This is still one of the most fun and best designed PVP games I've played, though I'm slightly biased since I don't enjoy military shooters or fighting games.
4: Initially drawn in by the aesthetic and concept, sticking around for the gameplay and because I like the lore/aesthetic/etc.
5: error question not found
6: Excited. I know it'll come with a fair few bugs and potentially balance issues, but the actual new content is almost always good.
7: Not gonna give hourcount but I play as regularly as my bad internet allows me, usually a few games a day/
8: Absolutely I would. The cracks in its balancing only start showing when you've really racked up a good hourcount, so newer players can enjoy this games numerous strengths for quite a while- and maybe some of them will play with me at some point.
9: It's... up there? I've played some really rough games for toxicity, notably League and Overwatch, and this game admittedly isn't quite as bad as either of those two for actual chatbox toxicity in the game itself, but this playerbase is particularly nasty even just in fan communities which makes up for the more sparse aggressiveness in-game.
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@RockoRango said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629715#Comment_2629715
The Heuristics of playfulness themselves aren’t meant to define a good game solely by themselves, as I showed in the slide snippet: they’re a core step in the heuristics of defining one. However, a game that fails at these heuristics specifically will surely fail at the rest due to the structure. They’re meant to be strict because they are basic and boiled down; the broader you view the heuristics, the less basic they become.
I would give the source, but it’s from our university textbook library: I don’t want to be sued by a conglomerate for linking their ‘private’ textbook’. I will say though that my professor is on the development team for World of Tanks and has been very clear about each lesson!
Here’s a reading about a study that describes it in broader terms:
https://www.userbehavioristics.com/s/DesigningBetterGames-09HCI-Desurvire.pdf
Ah, fair do's, I wouldn't risk linking that either. Appreciate the backup, though!
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@RockoRango said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626565#Comment_2626565
I took a class at my University for Game Design, and we spent a week solely talking about how a good game is defined; One of the core aspects of a good game is playfulness, which is made up of 5 heuristics that have to be met.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626368#Comment_2626368
I would say that my bashing of the devs is somewhat opinionated, but justified based on my reasoning
Did that course list any separate sources for its heuristics? I'd be interested in reading it if so, because as I said- this seems incredibly narrow in scope, to the point that it's straight up unfit for purpose when it comes to deciding a game's quality and to the point that I'm wondering if either you or the course completely misused/misrepresented it.
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I think she looks great. The ink limbs are a very interesting concept, and I like that her proportions seem to be designed to mimic a large bird- even down to the way she moves in the lobby, with the head-bobbing and jerky movements.
I do second that her lobby noises are almost as annoying as Deathslinger's though, that does get old. Not so bad in a match, but while you're queuing it's a little annoying.
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@Thrax said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626383#Comment_2626383
If you weren't aware epic has become the future home for blockchain game shenanigans. They are openly anti-consumer evidenced by them admitting they are dev first and backed up by their general operations and horrid customer service. Their launcher is very poorly made and chews up resources while idle. The blatant data theft in the early days shows they can't be trusted.
What makes it worse is all the problems on the platforms BHVR already uses and instead of dedicating time and effort to fixing them they're adding another vastly inferior option to harvest money from the mtx/fomo cesspool fortnite base.
Gone are the days of them pretending to care about the game.
Okay, cool.
What's that got to do with anything going on in this thread, or more importantly, my posts?
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I just watched Cowboy Bebop and I definitely recommend that show, it's so good
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@Jasonisanicefella said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2627008#Comment_2627008
Nurse and Blight are the two top killers
Artist and Pyramid head function similarly at loops so I think it is fair
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2627009#Comment_2627009
Sorry, I will add huntress, I had forgotten about her. Legion is a "they" so I can't count them. As for Pig/Ghostface I had forgotten about them LOL
I said usually anyway, not ALWAYS
I mean, sure, but are they actually similar? They can cross distance quickly, but I think saying their powers are comparable otherwise is a stretch.
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@Beaburd said:
Hey, you forgot to compare Huntress and Deathslinger, Plague and Legion, and maybe Pig and Ghostface?
But nah, just a coincidence.
To be fair, one of those is comparing a female killer and a group that contains two women, so not the most apt for these purposes.
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...Are Nurse/Blight and Artist/Pyramid Head really that comparable? Same for Spirit/Wraith, if I'm honest, there's only one real direct comparison on this list.
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I'm not sure about turning the system off, but I do know they adjust what the soft cap for matchmaking purposes is if queues would be too long otherwise. Maybe that's it?
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@PixelBush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626614#Comment_2626614
You're right, of course. Boons providing superpowered versions of existing gameplay mechanics that happen to ruin Twins' day has really showed where the Killers' issues lie.
It's really a shame, too- I actually bought the Twins relatively recently and had a blast learning them, but my god am I hesitant to pick them back up again right now.
(Big fan of your work, by the way, the Lemony Snicket homage in the Twins guide series made me really happy)
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@PixelBush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626592#Comment_2626592
I'll say this now: the week between the Key/Hatch change and Circle of Healing coming in off killswitch was the most fun I've ever had playing DBD, and now a couple of really really dumb perks have utterly crushed my enthusiasm for playing the game. It's as low as it's ever been.
No doubt, these perks are making the game worse in their current state, but it's not as though the Twins' gargantuan cooldowns for downing anyone with Victor would be okay if the boons had never been added, y'know?
These just highlight that problem even further.
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Honestly, these changes are necessary in the live version of the game and would be necessary if Circle of Healing were somehow completely removed from the game- all the boon perks only cause problems by exacerbating already existing issues, and this is no exception.
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Out of curiosity, where did you get those definitions from? They seem bizarrely restrictive, they seem to ignore a huge portion of games which specifically gain their fun factor from doing the opposite of what these bullet points require.
Any game about learning and mastering the right series of inputs is, by this metric, a disastrous failure, but plenty of people really really like games that are about learning the predictable and repeated patterns to overcome the challenge. Hell, a huge portion of speedrunning is built on this principle.
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@wewantbetterfun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626543#Comment_2626543
if all 4 survivors run circle of healing that mean either unbreakable, dead hard or DS is gone, and I am up for it
i'd rather all 4 have circle of healing and 3 other perks than 1 with 3 boons and the others with DS DH unbreakable and iron will.
I can respect that, I don't know if I agree but I get where you're coming from.
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Tackling that second suggestion- I don't hate it, but isn't it actually the better case scenario for only one person on the team to have any boon perks? Even setting aside the fact that if they're killed, boons are gone, if they're the only one running the boon that means they have to stop what they're doing to relight it when you snuff it, and it's a hell of a lot easier to pressure and interrupt one guy doing boons when nobody else is able to take over the job for them.
It feels like that change would only encourage the actual worst case scenario, which is four boons lit all at once covering a huge portion of the map.
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Technically speaking, none of the killers with Hexes who aren't Hag should be able to do it either, so it's probably just a gameplay versus lore thing.
One acceptable answer is that Mikaela teaches the other survivors how, though, and since the new guy seems like he's very smart and able to understand how things work easily, it's not a far leap of logic that he figured out how to make a new one himself.
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@Bennett_They1Them said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/293656/just-leave-the-damn-game
hey, a free hit is still bloodpoints.
If they let you get a hit in, and don't just wait for you to waste time only to run out at the last possible second before you're in hitting range.
The only gameplay act that I do think is toxic, even if it's not the hugest deal.
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Yeah, the counterplay is boons.
Or, if you don't have/like boons, do bones and remember where you did them so you can go do them again.
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@Thrax said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626373#Comment_2626373
I'm certain you're wrong.
I mean. Okay.
Not sure why this tone is necessary.
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This is very hesitant, I think she's either mid-A or high-B, depending on her state when she hits live and how good survivors get at dodging her projectiles.