jesterkind
jesterkind
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@RoboMojo said:
You probably should clarify what you mean by an FOV slider, OP. One or two peeps seem to have misunderstood.
Huh, it was edited. The original question was "shadowborn basekit", not FOV slider.
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With the exception that I really, sincerely don't think you should gain MMR even after dying, I actually fully agree that the current system would be in a more than acceptable spot if it used the emblems as a softening/enhancing factor. Dying after getting a very good emblem score should result in you losing less MMR, because it's showing the system that you do know what you're doing and probably shouldn't be tossed down to go bully some newbies.
This would be less necessary for killers, since the system already works pretty well for killer (provided the player isn't actively trying to max out their MMR and ruining their own experience as a result), but it'd hardly hurt for that side.
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Not basekit, no. Shadowborn should be a toggle in the options menu for people who want it, and the perk should be completely redesigned to do something else.
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@Dito175 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2659718#Comment_2659718
His backbling would be a locker 😭😭
Good news, Dwight, there are haystacks and portapotties you can hide in on that island too, you'll feel right at home!
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2659952#Comment_2659952
Not my fault the devs didn't bother thinking of basic things when designing the game. "We can't deal with cheating" isn't considered an acceptable line by any other developer on planet Earth.
To add, I don't think it's a good idea or something they SHOULD do. My response was to the idea there was no possible solution. There are solutions, they're just extreme. They're not a good idea, but I don't think 5 years of "Well we can't deal with this form of cheating because we can't figure it out" is acceptable. But this is the same company that has effectively memory holed DDOS issues which are still ongoing.
The fact that you consider it cheating says volumes about this topic, honestly.
It's not cheating any more than looking at your screen is cheating, it's just a part of making online games. The game can and should be balanced around it.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2659934#Comment_2659934
Yes it is quite impossible to write code to prevent the game from operating with certain programs running.
So, you'd have to hard shut down every other program you had open just to play DBD, even if you're playing solo? In order to prevent people from hanging out with their friends while playing?
This is a silly line of thinking, friend.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2659831#Comment_2659831
Nothing stops you from playing without comms. That seems to be something you consider required to play with your friends which is really bizarre.
So, first of all, I don't consider anything required to play with my friends because I don't play with my friends (despite my best efforts at getting them to start playing), but moving on...
You're being absurd. How on earth would they stop people from using comms? The only way to ensure people aren't using comms is to stop them from playing in a group, and even that isn't a guarantee. Not to mention that "playing with my friends" somewhat implies I'm having a fun time hanging out with them, which is kinda hard to do in silence.
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And thank god for that, eh?
Imagine if the developers decided that a few complaints were just cause to ban people from playing this game with their mates like any other multiplayer game. That'd be a truly jaw-droppingly bad choice.
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Undying and Thrill work really well against boons- either just one, utilising just the slowdown or just the aura reading, or using both together to get slightly less aura reading but more uptime for the slowing.
Anything that inflicts Exposed or Broken is good, too. Make Your Choice is already good on Hag, I'm given to understand, and I'm sure she could make use out of Starstruck. Maybe Devour if you're confident you can protect it, or maybe NOED? Maybe? I wouldn't really put any eggs in that very unreliable basket, personally, but it's an option.
Basically, you want to craft a build where survivors being healthy basically doesn't matter, or to prevent them from healing entirely. I haven't tested this as I don't play Hag, but I also feel like you could trap around a boon instead of snuffing it so you can use it as bait?
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It's not outplaying, no. It's just a tool you have to use in a specific situation; if the killer slugs you, then Unbreakable is a tool you can use to answer that strategy.
Neither slugging nor the use of Unbreakable are "outplaying" the other person, they're tools and strategies.
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@Labrac said:
Can't wait for Trapper on Fortnite.
I unironically want DBD skins in Fortnite, it'd be really funny.
Give Dwight a GUN.
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200 seconds is far too long, but increasing the time investment for relighting it could definitely be a good call. Either a cooldown on the perk, or increasing the amount of time to takes to bless a totem for each time it's been snuffed, something like that.
I'd be wary of making too many changes along those lines before addressing the more pressing issues, though- boons going through multiple floors, some totems being in spots it's just unrealistic to expect the killer to realistically keep snuffing, blessing a totem not deactivating DS... not to mention that CoH needs to be brought in line before we can accurately gauge how strong boons are as a mechanic and where the specific number tweaks and changes should be focused.
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@GoshJosh said:
I promise I’m not disagreeing just to disagree, but no on all fronts. Here’s why:
- If you put all the traps on one side of the map, you now have no options on the other side of the map to setup. So if all my traps are in the main building on Azarov’s but a chase or gen protection led me to the killer shack, I now have to go all the way over there to get more traps? Also, consider an even worse scenario like RPD.
- Survivors already have to deal with RNG when escaping traps; why for disarming also? Trapper also has such powerful add-ons for countering disarming traps, it’s quite disgusting really. Namely, Iridescent Stone. With all of Trapper’s ability to shut entire areas of a map down and snowball: no to disarming not always working.
- Maps track every other killer item, including Hag traps. Flashlights just disarm hers. I wouldn’t be opposed to flashlights also showing bear traps, but maps should definitely still reveal them. They’re already a niche item as is - especially after the hatch nerf.
- RPD is awful for all killers, but moving on from that- if the traps started where you could pick them up, you'd be holding some when you get pulled to other areas of the map. Since you don't generally want to venture away from your perimeter anyway, I really do think this wouldn't impact the Trapper negatively; there's already no guarantee there'll be some in that area to begin with, at least this way you'll have some on hand and can plan around knowing where you will and won't have traps with much more consistency.
- I could see this one being tricky, for the reasons you described, I just think there should be some decision making when it comes to disarming traps. Maybe not this, but the way disarming traps is right now just doesn't sit right with me.
- Maps track a handful of other killer items, and none of them are as badly screwed over as Trapper is. Showing a Hag trap is fine because she can just set it back down from where she is in a fraction of the time it takes Trapper to do the same. Showing Freddy snares is fine because... what are you gonna do about it? Demo portals are already huge and easy to see, they don't need to be hidden, and you already see the aura of Jigsaw boxes. I was careful with my phrasing, because Maps don't only show Trapper's power, they only hard counter his. Trapper is dramatically more impacted by Maps, to a degree that I just don't think it's fair.
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@HagathaSimmons said:
CoH is one example yes but I think the boons having a limit to 5 totems within a match is still a reasonable suggestion. Seeing as how Hex’s are single use, Boons should be “single use” one one totem. I doubt they’ll nerf healing speed on CoH but removing infinite boons solves future problems with other kinds of boons, whatever they may be.
Hexes are single use because of the way they're designed, whereas boon totems are designed differently. Part of the intended point of boon totems is that there's a back and forth, where the killer spends a second to snuff a boon and survivors spend much more time setting it back up again- that intention isn't really how it works in reality, but we can get it to work that way.
Step one is to nerf CoH, it's too strong for any variation of the boon totem mechanic. Step two is to make boons have much much less vertical range, so you can't be affected by one on the top floor of Midwich while you're on the bottom floor, for example. Step three is to fix totem spawns so that there aren't any weird out of the way ones that killers can't reasonably go snuff without putting themselves at a huge time loss.
It also might not be the worst idea to make blessing take longer the more times an individual totem is snuffed, OR make it so snuffing a totem puts the perk on a brief cooldown, too. Those ideas could help make the mechanic work properly.
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The problem with this suggestion is twofold; one, it's a nuclear option that hard nerfs boon totems in a way that dramatically changes their impact on the game (which is a problem when it's your first impulse), and two, it's a giant change to the base mechanic of boon totems when the only boon perk you've mentioned is Circle of Healing.
CoH is not the only boon perk now, and they're clearly going to keep adding more, so hard nerfing the core mechanic to accommodate for one of the three current perks that associate with it being OP feels a little silly to me. Wouldn't it be a better idea to first nerf CoH, and then see how it bears out?
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Downed is a little bit much, but I could see an argument for hooking a survivor snuffing the boon.
Even so, I'd worry that's kind of a bandaid solution to a wider problem. The way the mechanic should work, you should be able to just go snuff the boon when you've got a second to spare to do so, but it's things like totem spawns and individual map designs that get in the way of that working. I think at the very least, we should be considering making boon effects not travel through floors to weigh against this idea, to see which one's better.
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@landromat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2658013#Comment_2658013
no, he had compound 21 and crow
Ok so assuming that was a hacker and not just something Blight can do (which I'd have no idea, I don't play enough of him), what would killswitching him accomplish?
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@landromat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657991#Comment_2657991
that's exploits He should be killswitched because people exloiting his power
Is it? Doesn't the Adrenaline Vial let him do what happened in that clip?
If he doesn't have that then yeah someone's messing with him, but if they're messing with him how would killswitching fix that? Hackers can mess with any killer, you can't killswitch them all.
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Someone's gonna have to make those "don't make me tap the sign" memes, to read "the killswitch isn't for something that's just bugged or just annoying" lol.
I'm pretty sure this is one of his addons, right? I'm not sure, I don't play that much Blight, but I think so. If it's not, though, doesn't that mean it's a hacker? What would killswitching achieve in this scenario?
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657746#Comment_2657746
I don't think you're right. Yes, Thrill is the best at what it does, but Spike wants "The Best", full stop. New Thrill isn't that. Why would Spike pick Thrill over Corrupt, Pop, Ruin, Undying, Tinkerer, BBQ, or Infectious and maybe even Deadlock? Bit of a trick question there because he won't. Johnny is the one who builds around perks that are best at what they do... but like I said, most of the interesting combos you can make with Thrill disappeared with the Noise Notification.
Edit: Also now I kind of want to try new Retribution + Undying on someone. 20s of aura reading and being able to see and sneak up on people on Dulls sounds pretty neat.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that front, then- I personally think that its efficacy in certain builds means that Thrill still has a place in the game, but if you disagree then I can see where you're coming from.
I think we can both agree that Thrill is less interesting to use regardless of our opinions on its strength, though.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657711#Comment_2657711
Alright you responded before I edited, so let me expand on what I edited in.
Are you familiar with Timmy, Johnny, and Spike? If you are, you can skip the rest of this. It's a system the Devs of Magic the Gathering came up with to classify their different players. Timmy wants things to be BIG. Big effects, big numbers whatever, it just has to be big and obvious. Johnny wants to pull off a weird, interesting, probably convoluted plan. Spike just wants to win. He wants the most powerful and efficient things in the game and doesn't care about the rest of it. Sure, this is for MTG but honestly it can easily be applied to DBD as well.
Timmy isn't going to care about new Thrill because it isn't big or exciting.
Spike isn't going to care about new Thrill because there are far more powerful and efficient perks in the game.
Johnny might care about it if they can come up with something interesting with it... but speaking as somebody who is 100% a Johnny, I see nothing. The noise notification was the fun, interesting thing about the perk that you could potentially build around and it got deleted.
If you can explain what sort of player might actually care about the new version of the perk... well I'm all ears. But I really don't see it. I fully expect new Thrill to be almost never used.
Well, out of those three, I do think that Spike is going to see the most value in it. Thrill isn't actually outclassed by anything in what it actually does, so if you want to do an anti-totem build, Thrill is going to be an integral part of that. As to who else is going to use it, I see two groups:
Number one is people who really hate boons. Slap Thrill and Undying together, and you've got a pretty effective way of guarding the dulls while giving a decent second chance at protecting the two hexes, I genuinely think this build is going to be very useful unless boons somehow get nerfed into the ground sometime soon.
Number two is people who like variety. Sure, there are stronger builds out there, but this is strong enough to do adequately and provides a little variety- this is the group of people for whom I'm most gunning to get the perk buffed for, because as I said earlier, I do think Thrill should be given some extra secondary effect to make up for removing the noise notification.
I like that idea, by the way, kudos to the MTG devs, smart way of thinking about players.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657686#Comment_2657686
I mean... it basically is dead.
If you want strong perks regardless of how fun they are, you have better options. You won't run Thrill.
If you want fun perks, well... it isn't fun anymore. You won't run Thrill either.
Where does that leave it? Nowhere. That's why it is a dead perk. Even if it isn't technically useless... nobody will equip it.
If you want an anti-boon build, or a full hex build, Thrill is an extremely solid option. Its slowdown got buffed and it doesn't lose tokens when a totem is blessed, meaning that survivors have to go deal with it if they don't want to be wasting a long time blessing each totem.
The perk has a firm niche, it's not dead. It's just less able to do funny gimmick builds now, which is a shame and I'm not necessarily defending that change.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657625#Comment_2657625
I brought that up to illustrate a point.
I would suspect that there were far more killer players like me who ran Thrill for the Loud Noise as opposed to the passive slowdown. They deleted the thing that made some people run it and for what? More passive, invisible slowdown.
Regardless of whether or not new Thrill is stronger or not, its design is way worse. Passive, invisible slowdown is boring. That's all Thrill does now. Passive, invisible slowdown that you don't even know how much it is helping because it is beyond easy to avoid it completely. How is this a fun perk? Why would anybody run it? Honestly, I don't think anybody is running it because of those things.
To make it worse, they butchered the fun part of Thrill of the Hunt the patch where Retribution got a buff that would have made those two perks combo together in a very fun way. Loud noise notification telling me where there's an oblivious Survivor? Sign me up! But no... Thrill is dead.
If your point is that the perk is more boring to use now, then that's one that I'd agree with. The only thing I'm contesting is that they nerfed it into the ground, or that the perk is dead/useless now.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657577#Comment_2657577
No it doesn't. New Thrill doesn't enable you to defend your other 3 perks in that gimmick build, so you're better off with more punishment or mitigation for them breaking your Totems. At this point you are way better off running Undying, Haunted, Retribution, and Ruin/Devour. Old Thrill was arguably better than Retribution in that build if you were on a fast Killer.
Here's the thing, the noise notification was 100% of the reason I personally ran Thrill. That being gone means that it is a dead perk to me. I see absolutely zero reason to slot the new version into my build ever. If I'm having trouble with Boons, I'll just run a Killer who does not care at all if they're in play (which I am already doing btw). Alternatively, I can run Exposed perks and not care about Boons that way but still get value if they happen to not be in play. Seriously... there are far far far better ways to counter Boons than New Thrill because those other ways don't fall on their face if boons aren't in play.
I mean, sure, if you're gonna move from talking in general to talking about your personal tastes I obviously don't have much to say there. If you don't wanna run Thrill, that's totally fine, that wasn't my goal here!
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2657361#Comment_2657361
It was good enough to see a bit of use. Especially if you were on a high mobility Killer like Blight or running an all Hex build. TBH, it was hilarious to run TotH as your only Hex on Blight and defend the Totem. Could old Thrill have used a buff? Sure but they should have... y'know... buffed it instead of basically deleting it.
Now though? Yeah it might be "stronger" than it was and messing with Boon totems is nice... but you might not be against boon totems and you have no way of knowing ahead of time. It's been put in the bin next to Lightborn. Are they both good against the Survivor stuff they're meant to counter? Sure. Will you ever swap it in to try to counter that stuff? Probably not. At least old Thrill had a place in an All Hex build or the aforementioned solo Hex on a fast killer. Both of those are gimmicky but you as Killer can actively set up that gimmick and make it work. You can't force new Thrill like that because its a counter perk.
Thrill still has a place in an all Hex build, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It slows down cleansing too, so it's actually slightly better in that gimmick build than it was before.
Losing the noise notification is a shame, and I do think that it could use a different secondary effect to balance it out - though what that'd be I have no idea - but that hardly means it's been binned. It's much stronger than Lightborn because survivors are bringing hex totems in almost every game, and even if they don't, it's now an actual utility perk for hexes instead of being bargain-bin Undying for protecting them. Frankly, the all-Hex build is where this perk now shines and actually has a use instead of swapping it out for a second actual-effect Hex.
Thrill has not been nerfed into the ground, it hasn't been essentially deleted, and it isn't worthless. It's been repurposed to more of a passive role, which is a shame because the noise notification did open up some fun opportunities- not because it's a lesser perk now.
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Rather than see them become basekit I'd rather see them buffed- not every killer actually does struggle with pallets (Demo, Bubba, and Nemesis definitely break pallets faster even than Brutal Strength) so it'd be nice to have Brutal Strength be a more potent option, and Fire Up just isn't very good.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2656444#Comment_2656444
If they wanted a Boon Slowdown perk, they should have added one. Not basically deleted the only actual Totem Defense perk killers had.
While I empathise with the overall point, Thrill wasn't actually any good at that job while it still had it. I honestly think it's slightly stronger now than it was before.
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@Ssajbambusa said:
@Sakurra 5.3.0
@jesterkind Then you have a perkslot that does nothing. Maybe it's good, I just can't see a scenario when it's worh 25% of your perk slots.
It doesn't do nothing, it slows down survivors more if they want to keep gunning for blessing totems. Is it meta-level strength? No, it's a pretty mediocre perk. It's just important not to talk about it as though they nerfed it into the ground without giving it something else in return, because that isn't true.
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@Ssajbambusa said:
@jesterkind @GoshJosh The time you spend protecting your precious little totems is time spent not chasing survivors or pressuring generators. Boons will stop being used so much after a month or two when initial euphoria vains and maybe some deserved nerfs kick in. Then we are left with useless perk xD. Also you can just cleanse dulls for this effect to be minimal - and if survivors don't cleanse dulls it's on them, because majority of killers run noed due to boon meta.
I, uh. What?
I'm literally saying you shouldn't try and use Thrill to protect totems anymore, it's slowdown to make survivors waste time.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2656421#Comment_2656421
Before the notification was removed, i was already missing it sometimes. I thought that it would be better to make it like discordance: a permanent noise notification. But now... the perk lost its most important effect: her power to defend a hex. And i don't think they'll back track.
It lost its prior effect, and gained a new one. Slowdown was buffed, because that's what the perk is now- it's not a hex defence perk, it's a boon slowdown perk, that's what it's for now.
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My guess is it was a mechanical/coding thing where they couldn't quite get it to consistently tell the difference between cleansing and blessing, but that's just conjecture- I don't know exactly why they made that change.
I'd caution against considering the perk useless, though. It slows down blessing by quite a lot and it doesn't lose tokens when a totem is blessed, so they have to go deal with it if they don't want to endure the slowdown.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2656207#Comment_2656207
Then they shouldn't have described it as being used so we don't have to deal with buggy broken stuff until they fixed it. Seems their desire of how to use kill switch has changed from that dev update they introduced it in. It was never described as only being for game crashing bugs.
They didn't. It was described as something for game breaking bugs, or things that are bugged in ways you can abuse for an advantage. That's why those map offerings were killswitched- survivors could purposefully send themselves there with a full build to exploit the unsnuffable totems. It's also why the Video Tape wasn't killswitched- the Pig player couldn't abuse that bug for an advantage, because it made things worse for them.
They've been pretty clear about this, honestly.
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Oh, lots of things. Far, far more than I dislike.
- The setting and lore are really interesting, even if a few specific characters are kinda eh.
- The fundamental design is still one of the smartest and most competent I've seen from a game of this type, despite any problem areas with specific balancing.
- The visuals, in my opinion, are stunning. Maybe a little less realistic than some of its contemporaries, but stylised enough that it's still gorgeous and the art department's phenomenal work can shine.
- When you're not vastly outmatched, Killer can feel really satisfying to play. You're not completely unstoppable, you're a reactive slasher villain who has to outsmart their victims.
- It's a minor note, but the presence of licenses is a plus. Some of them, especially Myers, are translated incredibly well, honestly Myers is a masterpiece of design in general and I hope he gets a little sprucing up soon.
- I really like the archive mechanic, gives me some specific things to gun for when I don't feel like learning a new killer or just playing for a basic win.
This is still a really, really good game, that's why its flaws feel as pointed as they do.
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Nothing that's been mentioned so far is worthy of being killswitched, though? It's not for stuff that's annoying or OP, it's not even for stuff that's bugged.
It's a very specific tool for a very specific purpose, it's not something they're just refusing to use for some reason.
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The regular present-box items that appear in the bloodweb also count for the Happy Holidays achievement (I have it too despite having started playing just after the last Winter Solstice) and the other two, to my knowledge, are just ones added during that event that can be earned all year round.
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@nostrada96ass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655567#Comment_2655567
People on this forum are trying very hard not to get hit back. There is no realistic way to counter noed
But I think the balance is right because it affects only egc
and nobody says that most killers are weak enough that noed doesn't feel like cheating
noed with nurse or old spirit make you think again
There are two realistic ways to counter NOED, and one sort of unrealistic way to counter NOED. The unrealistic way is the much-memed "do bones", and the two realistic ways are "keep track of where bones are so you can cleanse it once it activates" or "leave as quickly as possible".
Obviously, yeah, NOED on Nurse or Spirit is gonna be rough, but that's because those killers are incredibly strong, not because NOED is unfair/OP/uncounterable.
A moderately strong effect that can be both completely prevented and disabled after it activates, that only activates in a very short window, and that also requires you to have not played awfully before it does activate to get actual value from it doesn't need a rework, and isn't an unhealthy design.
(Though obviously obligatory comment that it should announce itself when it activates, not when the first survivor is hit)
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The base speed of a generator being repaired isn't the problem, but the fact that survivors have so many tools to speed it up combined with some truly nasty map layouts definitely is.
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Potentially a little overrated, but it's certainly not bad- it's definitely the best endgame perk, and it can give you some room to close in on the remaining players if you've been doing well enough to not have everyone alive and nobody on death hook by the time it activates.
I've slapped it on my Clown and Demo builds a lot recently, and I have noticed it do some work.
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I'd sooner see it tweaked slightly so it can tidy up some unfortunate edge cases.
It's important to remember that you're not supposed to be trying to max out your MMR, though. That's just shooting yourself in the foot, raising yourself to a level where everyone's as sweaty as possible all the time for zero benefit- if you like playing that way, go for it, but otherwise ease up and be okay with the occasional loss.
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There actually is a very fair nerf to NOED that I think the perk really does need- I've said it elsewhere, but the only problem with NOED is that the first person hit by it doesn't really have any chance to employ the perk's counterplay. Sure, they could've done bones to prevent it activating, but you don't need to do that; once you know it's active, if you aren't the guy hit by it, you have two very strong options: find and break the hex, or leave the trial.
My solution is to make it so it doesn't require one guy get ######### over, by making it announce itself when the last generator is complete. There, everyone has the opportunity to employ counterplay unless the killer's right on them when it procs.
Since survivors can BOTH prevent it from ever activating and cleanse it after it does proc, and the effect simply isn't strong enough to save bad gameplay, the fundamental design of the perk is fine.
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Thanks for the kind words :)
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652281#Comment_2652281
That's the problem area, nothing else about the perk can reasonably said to be unfair specifically because it's honestly not a very strong perk.
I think that that's where I disagree with you. Balance and design aren't inextricably linked, and just because something is balanced, doesn't mean it's 'fair'. Imagine a killer that cannot injure survivors at all, but once the fifth gen is done, he automatically teleports to one random survivor and moris them.
It'd be the weakest killer, and also the most unfair.
So just because NOED isn't necessarily OP, doesn't mean it's immediately fair. It's still a perk that pays off too much for too little, with too little, too unintuitive, and too unrewarding counterplay.
I'm not sure how you'd get to that conclusion, honestly.
Taking the change I've suggested into account, the perk would be perfectly fair. It'd give a spike in lethality at the very end of the match, giving survivors the opportunity to turn it off or hide until they can escape without requiring anyone to be unfairly punished for its existence. It's a moderately powerful effect, sure, but it's also one that requires you to not have a fourth perk for the majority of the match- and it's not an effect that will make up for not getting some work done during that time, either. If you get one down but you've only gotten three hooks the whole game and the person you've hooked isn't on death hook, survivors have a ton of time to go find the hex and disable it so they can come for a save, or they can just leave-- and that's with the perk as it is now, before you take any changes into account.
You get a moderate effect that only activates towards the last third of the game and that can be disabled at any time, as well as doing nothing to actually prevent the survivors from just leaving since it only activates when they're able to do that. What about that is unfair?
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Definitely agreeing that this doesn't need to be a hex- give it a moderate cooldown and it'll be a niche but relatively useful perk to slap on if you see a lobby of flashlights.
Maybe slap a scream effect on there too, just for funsies.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651781#Comment_2651781
"[Devour] has a longer wind up" flat out isn't true, you get three stacks of Devour much quicker than you get any value out of NOED unless the match is going tremendously poorly for you.
Yeah, that was a mislabelling on my part, I was more referring to the fact that Devour Hope actually has to be built up by the killer's efforts.
That's part of the balance of NOED- it takes more effort to prevent before it takes hold, but that's because it takes much longer to take hold than Devour does.
That does depend mostly on the performance of both sides, though. A slow killer or fast survivors can make NOED pop faster than Devour Hope.
Devour Hope doesn't announce itself until someone's hit after the third stack is gained
I didn't say it declares itself, I said it's traceable. NOED has no signalling of any kind before it takes effect, but Devour Hope does have an immediate effect: It lights up a totem. And even before reaching three stacks, it does get a little tell at two stacks, when its first effect comes into play.
and someone being hit with NOED is by no means too late to counter it.
It is for that someone getting hit, in most cases. They'll be stuck on the hook and unable to do anything. They might be able to get rescued if the other survivors can find and destroy the totem, but they have to do so with a 4% bonus speed killer with instadowns breathing down their necks.
You don't have to cleanse every single totem if you don't have any separate reason to do that, because you can absolutely go cleanse NOED after it procs so long as you're not the guy that got hit.
But that's the issue: When talking about design, we also have to consider the viewpoint of the one sucker that takes the hit. And for that one sucker, this perk is the most unfair thing in existence. Even if it's not OP by any metric, it's still ruinous to the overall gameplay.
A rework is exactly what NOED needs.
I find it interesting that you picked multiple points of mine in your response there but ignored my conclusion, which is still my conclusion here: the response to that unfairness is to announce NOED sooner, because that is the only part of the perk that is actually unfair in any way at all.
You said it yourself: The viewpoint of the one sucker who got hit is important. That's the problem area, nothing else about the perk can reasonably said to be unfair specifically because it's honestly not a very strong perk. It can be blocked from ever activating, it can be turned off once it does, and it's worthless if survivors just leave the trial as quickly as possible after seeing it activate.
If NOED is announced as soon as it triggers, rather than as soon as someone is hit by it, that'll give everyone the ability to employ its counterplay, rather than just everyone except the one guy who got hit.
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Huntress' new one. Too weak, too boring, I guess it does make a degree of sense lore-wise but that hardly saves it.
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Hmm, let's see...
Favourite:
- Hawkins. Rest in peace, my dear friend... I really liked the layout, I thought it was a shining example of how to do indoor maps without it being obnoxious. Outside of a few annoying spots like trying to defend the portal room's generator, it always felt relatively balanced to me. Plus the drop just ruled, I loved that area.
- Dead Dawg. I know it's not super small, but it's effectively quite condensed, and there's quite a lot spots to hide traps when I'm playing my first love, Trapper. Plus it's really well done atmospherically speaking- though the vultures eating always sounds like someone healing to me, it trips me up.
- Coldwind. I know it's not actually a good map for killer, but for whatever reason, I actually really enjoy playing on this realm now that it's been brightened up- the corn's not anywhere near as much of a problem now that I can actually discern survivors through it a little bit, and there's a fair amount of just openness to it.
- Honourable mention: The Game. I really, really, really want to like The Game, because I think it's actually laid out really nicely, but the pallet density is just too brutal. If they scaled that back, I'd really like it.
Least favourite:
- RPD. Not much needs to be said here: too big, too maze-like, too dark. The main foyer area is actually quite a lot of fun to play in, but the rest of it is nasty.
- Midwich. I almost put this in the honourable mentions too because it is very atmospheric and I have gotten a lot better at navigating it, but there are two massive dealbreakers: One, it still takes forever to get to where you need to go sometimes even when you know exactly how to get there, and two, it's far too dark. Or at least, there's not enough contrast, because Haddonfield is also quite dark but you can still see things on it, whereas I genuinely cannot discern anything in some areas of Midwich, it's awful.
- Badham. I haaaaaaate that main structure, it's so unfun. The rest of it's not bad, though, and I've always liked that fence vault outside the school.
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I don't blame them. It's a pretty cool box, have you seen it? Who wouldn't want to keep a hold of that bad boy.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651687#Comment_2651687
I'm glad you're bringing that comparison up, because I think it illustrates the issue with NOED quite nicely.
While Devour Hope is potentially far more devastating, it also has a longer wind-up and requires the killer to put in considerable effort to get the majority of the perk's value. Additionally, it is vulnerable for the entire duration, with a single totem (Or two, if the killer brings Undying) carrying the entire weight of the perk. This means that the counterplay to this perk is to seek and destroy that one totem.
So to get value out of Devour Hope, the killer has to get multiple hooks and not camp, and then find a survivor after getting sufficient stacks. And to stop Devour Hope, survivors have to find and destroy one totem, which is available from the start of the match.
Compare to NOED...
To get value out of NOED, the killer has to find a survivor after the fifth gen is finished. And to stop NOED, survivors have to either find and destroy all five totems before the perk becomes active, or find the hex totem after the perk is active.
There's a general concept in game design for both effort/reward and risk/reward, and in both categories, NOED has a massively superior ratio compared to Devour Hope. NOED takes zero effort to put into work and has a far lower risk factor due to having way harder counterplay. Both ultimately offer the same kind of benefit, although Devour Hope can snowball on to be even stronger. It doesn't help that Devour Hope is traceable, while NOED is only declared once it's too late to counter it.
NOED's problem isn't with it being OP, it's just an awfully designed perk.
The fact that it's undeclared until it's too late adds to the weakness of the counterplay. If you do manage to clear all five bones, and the killer didn't have NOED, that counterplay just ended up making NOED -stronger-, since it did a better job of slowing the survivors down than Thanatophobia probably could've done, and without even occupying a slot.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651685#Comment_2651685
And that's another thing that needs to be pointed out: The thread is called 'NOED needs a -rework-', not 'NOED needs a nerf'.
With NOED's biggest issues just being garbage design, a rework wouldn't necessarily make it weaker. Imagine, for example...
- NOED is now baseline.
- NOED's effect scales off of totems left standing, as opposed to firing at full force off of any remaining totem. At one totem remaining, the killer gets a 5% movespeed boost. At 2, all survivors are exposed. At 3, the killer breaks pallets 100% faster and windows block after one in-chase fast vault. At 4, the killer can see the aura of all survivors within 16 meters. At 5, the exits are blocked.
- Survivors now have a baseline totem counter.
Aside from the fact that this rework wouldn't work as long as camping is an option (Which is another big problem with NOED, its counterplay is mutually exclusive with that of facecamping), this rework would make NOED stronger, but also make the counterplay WAY more fair. Every totem you break WILL, 100%, without fail, hinder NOED. You won't get punished for breaking four totems and accidentally shunting NOED into a godspawn, you won't have to struggle with the whole 'I can't do it by myself, but I can't tell if any of my teammates will help me' aspect of totem hunting in solo queue, and you won't have to worry that you're breaking totems for absolutely zero pay-off.
The whole discussion around NOED just got massively bogged down by the dumbass meme of 'do bones', to the point where no one seems to even give this perk a second thought, or even a first one.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651663#Comment_2651663
That's also the point of survivors saying 'do bones' to killers. The answer is just as inane, useless and ill-thought-out as saying 'do bones' to a solo survivor complaining about NOED. Survivors put up with it for years, now they're mocking it when it's the killer's turn.
I'm following most of your argument here, though I am noticing a few things I don't think are strictly true? I don't think it's me being pedantic, either, it actually is pretty relevant. For instance:
"[Devour] has a longer wind up" flat out isn't true, you get three stacks of Devour much quicker than you get any value out of NOED unless the match is going tremendously poorly for you. That's part of the balance of NOED- it takes more effort to prevent before it takes hold, but that's because it takes much longer to take hold than Devour does.
" It doesn't help that Devour Hope is traceable, while NOED is only declared once it's too late to counter it." also isn't true, neither side of it. Devour Hope doesn't announce itself until someone's hit after the third stack is gained, exactly the same as NOED, and someone being hit with NOED is by no means too late to counter it. You don't actually have to "do bones", which I agree is an obnoxious and unhelpful meme, you can just take note of where the bones are and sprint to go check those areas once you've seen NOED spawn, if and only if you want to linger in the trial instead of employing the other counter, which is to just leave instead of going for a save.
So, with those two things combined, the wider argument is a lot weaker, in my opinion. You don't have to cleanse every single totem if you don't have any separate reason to do that, because you can absolutely go cleanse NOED after it procs so long as you're not the guy that got hit. From that perspective, NOED is no more OP than any other hex perk, if it spawns out in the open somewhere you can deal with it instantly and if it doesn't then the killer is given a little more time to try and secure some kills, which is the point of an endgame perk to begin with.
From where I'm sitting, there's only one problem- there's only one angle from which "it isn't announced until it's too late" is actually true, and that's if you're the unlucky SOB who gets hit by it. Rather than the full reworks people are suggesting, all that's required is to make NOED announce its presence as the last generator is completed so the first guy doesn't just get unlucky and get hit by it.
You're right that this perk isn't OP. It's not even really that good, it just rewards survivors running into it instead of employing the same tactics that work against any other endgame perk- hide, and with the added benefit of being able to go turn it off far quicker than any other endgame perk.
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That's generally true, but there are still some problems with boon totems as they stand. A lot of the time a totem can be in a spot that would take far too much of a killer's time to snuff, for instance- triply so if it's on a separate floor to the one that the chase is happening on.
Circle of Healing is also far, far too strong, but that's separate from boon totems as a general mechanic.
Overall, I definitely do agree that the intended back-and-forth of boon totems is a very good addition to the game, they just need a little more polishing to remove the problem areas.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651687#Comment_2651687
i've thought the same thing, but have assumed it's because you know your exposed and you can cleanse it earlier.
You actually don't- Devour doesn't announce itself until you hit someone with three stacks.