cogsturning
cogsturning
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@jokere98 said:
My idea with the hatch change for the long time was that it spawns the same way as it is right now, but works differently:
If killer finds the hatch first and closes it - survivor instantly sacrificed (killed by the entity, like endgame collapse)
If survivor finds the hatch first and jumps into it - he teleported into different location and 2 minute (subjective for balancing) timer starts. Now the killer can't close the hatch, he has to find and enter it, and down survivor before timer runs out (timer starts the moment survivor enters the hatch, not the moment the killer does it)
Inside the hatch, all perks, items and powers are disabled, killer speed is set to 4.6 (maybe also no bloodlust?), and there are some basic tiles (not randomized? More like halloween location (not in terms of strenght of the tiles), where it is always the same. not sure about that)
If survivor manages to last 2 minutes inside - they escape. If downed - killed by the entity.
What do you think about this? It doesnt fix the 2v1 problem, but at least it makes the last one escaping feel more deserved, instead of the simple "i'm feeling lucky"
upd. Maybe also add killer instinct for a few seconds when killer enters the hatch, so the survivor has to outlast killer in chase, not just hide till the timer runs outYou're approaching the game as though the only valubale feat survivors preform is chase. There's more to this game than just running in a circle.
This is also a very samey scenario. All killers just become identical to each other. I main a 4.4 killer because I like his power. If I wanted to be some boring 4.6 M1 killer with killer instinct I'd play Legion. This sounds very repetitive and cookie cutter on both sides.
What we have now is more varied then this. The survivor can find the hatch and escape. The killer can close it, but the survivor can open it with a key. The killer can close it and then the survivorcan try to open the door without being caught. Certain perks can come into play and vary these situations up as well.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085464#Comment_4085464
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085461#Comment_4085461
Did i suggest in any way that you gotta stop being a vulture?
Youre free to be egoistic , but survivors should pratices what they preach about empathy for other players or shut up about it, dontcha think?
So id suggest the last survivor to silently jump into the pity escape hatch, get their escape score and then shut it about killers being evil for slugging
What are you even suggesting? That survivors just walk up to the killer because they decided to slug someone? You can't just take other people's words and apply them to things that make no sense. It's hilarious to call people vultures because of another player's decision to suppress an intended mechanic.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Survivors care only for their own escape.
If you really felt for slugged people you'd help them instead of being such a vulture for the hatch.
But your own escape and ego are more important so youd rather hide in a corner and blame the killer for your own strategy.
If there are four gens left and two people what's the point of revealing your location so the killer can find you too? You aren't going to both be able to leave.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085329#Comment_4085329
The ability to cancel out a chase the moment it starts is not a tactic, it's bullshit.
If tunneling and slugging are tactics, so is avoiding chase. You can't think anything goes for one side and then complain when the other side does things.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085404#Comment_4085404
Have diminishing returns on slowdown/repair/healing perks.
Dimishining does work on these things, but only certain combos. Most popular builds are untouched. They intend to build on it so I'm sure we'll see more.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
I think generator speeds are fine - it would be even more boring repairing gens if time was longer - but I do think that something needs to be done to nerf coordinated teams a bit. Past stats have shown that SWF at high MMR has a significantly higher escape rate than the 40% target, and it sure feels that way playing against good coordinated teams. I don’t think this will ever happen because SWF will be in an uproar complaining about being “punished” for playing with friends, not acknowledging their unfair advantage.
The only way SWFs can have an "unfair" advantage is through bad matchmaking. If matchmaking worked, good killers would be matched with good SWFs. I play with a lot of different people across the full spectrum of skill levels and I do so because I like that social aspect, and I like those people, not because I want or get an advantage. And even upper MMR players usually sit below the 50% ER on average when stats release, which is pretty underwhelming for the best players.
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085404#Comment_4085404
I agree that macro is important, and I think a lot of killers do throw games by overcommitting to bad chases or failing to identify which gens they need to defend.
The thing is that I don't think that really addresses my main point.
If the discussion was "why do some killers lose games?", then yes, macro is a huge part of the answer. But my post is about why regression perks are so common across the killer role as a whole.
Good macro and slowdown perks aren't competing explanations. In fact, the killers with the best macro are often the same players bringing slowdown because they understand how valuable time is.
Also, I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who feels regression is important is just getting outplayed. If that were the case, we wouldn't see slowdown perks remain popular across skill levels, content creators, competitive players, and experienced killers who already understand map pressure and chase management.
A killer can make the correct decision, take a reasonable chase, secure a hook, and still lose significant generator progress during that time. That's not necessarily being outplayed. That's just how the objective system works.
I also think saying "I run 0-2 regression perks and do okay" isn't really evidence against the argument. There are players who do well with off-meta builds, just like there are survivors who do well without exhaustion perks. The question isn't whether it's possible. The question is why certain perk categories consistently dominate build usage.
If regression wasn't providing value, killers wouldn't keep bringing it. Players naturally gravitate toward perks that solve problems they regularly encounter.
So while I agree that a lot of killers need to improve their macro, I don't think "learn macro" fully explains why slowdown perks continue to be among the most common killer perks in the game. Those two things can both be true at the same time.
I don't think they actually do feel a genuine need to bring them,even if they've convinced themselves of that. I think they bring them because the easiest way to win is to drag out the match as much as possible. Whereas for survivors, faster is best. The more time you spend in the match, the more opportunity the killer has to win. And anti gen is the only way to do that.
I also think that slowdown is far more valuable then most other builds by default. Survivor builds are more varied, and more likely to counter killer builds. You can bring a chase build but still have to deal with SB/Vigil/Finesse or a survivor with a full aura build who always knows where you are. You can bring an aura build, but survivors could bring shadow step and distortion and hide in lockers after hooks. But Pain Res has no counter. It's hitting the gen with the most progress no matter what. Eruption has no counter. Deadlock has no counter. TBTC has no counter. As long as you get some hooks these are nearly guaranteed value across all matches—and Deadlock rewards you for doing literally nothing—whereas other builds are more situational.
Survivors also absolutely have to do gens to leave. They can extend chases, they can hide, they can meme, but the gens do have to get done if they want to win. So bringing a build that counters the one true survivor objective is logical.
Lastly, I think many people are afraid to leave the meta. The best players I've ever known or gone against have been perkless. Adherence to a consistent sameness is, to me, fear-based. I run off meta perks on both roles and they do me much good because people don't expect them. I believe many killers overestimate how much they genuinely need these things. Especially an entire build that does one thing.
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If they were to increase base gen speeds (which has already happened before) killers would still run four slowdown and doing gens would be impossible without a gen build, which would narrow the survivor meta even more. As it is, diminishing returns has already nerfed bringing perks like Deja Vu, Teamwork: Full Circuit, Resilience, and Prove Thyself together. I run 2 regression perks on my main and 1-0 on everyone else and I do okay. I have to wonder what the KRs of people who feel the "need" to run four slowdowns are.
I think the biggest issue this game faces is players not understanding macro. A killer will allow themsleves to be dragged to an inactive corner of the map by a smart survivor, or they'll ego chase someone good without judging time, and then get mad at the game when three gens pop, when they were actually outplayed and don't realize it.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085363#Comment_4085363
If you want to let last survivor go you'll find your way, hatch isnt needed for that. Calling wanting a 4k "ego issue" is hilarious, thats literally killer's ultimate goal. Playing for a win? Oops bro you have ego issues. I want deserved 4k, thats it, I dont care If I stomped solo q with 2 Sable who disconnect after first down or fought tooth and nail against 4k hours SWF, I deserve this win regardless. If you want to win as surv then find SWF team for yourself and play with them, going solo q you basically agree to have zero control of who your teammates are and what will they do.
My personal experience is that while playinf solo q I still escape through gates good amount of games and solid teammates aren't that rare, if you have disconnects every game thats probably low mmr lobbies, you'll get better teammates more you play. And I have no issues dying/being tunneled by good killer, they just do what they need to win, its actually good practice play against someone actually good. It was frustrating back when we had challenges that required escape but thankfully they got rid of those.
I get a mixture of players just like everyone does cause this matchmaking is nonsense. I can go from having an 8k hour teammate to an 80 hour one in one night. Last time I played one of my survivor opponents had 40 hours—against a player with thousands, with a 70% KR on that killer. It was certainly a win for me, but it was neither deserved nor fair. You can go ahead and make yourself feel good about your wins and that you deserved them when half the team DCed or quit, or when they got a killer-sided map, or when the matchmaking jumbled everything up if you want but match outcomes for the average player are more luck and RNG based then skill-based unless everyone involved is comp-level.
"The more you play" huh? I play this game almost every day. Can you show me your MMR cause I'd love to see it. I can only show you my stats:
That's a bit lower than normal. I think I'm doing okay but thanks for assuming.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085351#Comment_4085351
Is hatch only reason you play survivors? Really? Also isnt that also just an ego that you want to escape in a lost game? Its absolutely not killer's fault survivors DC
Tell me why a killer deserves to kill a survivor who's stuck in a match where all their teammates DCed or AFked under hook at match start? Contrary to popular belief, survivors are all individual people, not a hive mind split into four, and they often get handed bad situations by teammates that completely remove their agency and ability to win. Maybe you play survivor to just have fun little chases until you inevitably die because the killer surely deserves all their 4ks but I do not.
If you genuinely believe a killer is entitled to a 4k when someone had zero chance to win I actually don't know what to say. I personally prefer to get my kills through actually playing, and if people don't want to play, I'll remove them and give someone who got handed a raw deal hatch. Because it isn't their fault. I want the hatch there just as much as survivor as I do killer because it allows me to let someone go in an unfair match.
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The best thing you can do is stay out of range of his attacks. He's slow, so if you see him coming, hold W away. Edgemap works well against his M2. So do very small loops. Drop a pallet and keep him on the opposite side of you. You can predict his shots based on where he's looking. People wreck me this way. The furthest end of his M2 range is the worst place to be. I get most of my hits there, often from predictions. Continue to move erratically even when he can't see you. Don't assume you're safe because you broke LoS if he's still in firing range.
Also, if it's a two story building and you're in his TR, be mindful. Most Henry's run aura. They also have ears. Case in point:
https://youtu.be/FhtCK0c2_eE?si=gR8TH7uyCW2pkXki -
The fog is map wide. They mean when he's nearby, like Wraith's shimmering.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085192#Comment_4085192
You're way overthinking something that doesn't even count as a "win" for survivor. Hatch debates are pointless when the devs don't consider it any more significant than a means of ending the game
Per a dev:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LRQBGHWJLXAS/1000014118.jpg
It's very much ego, as you said. God forbid you don't destroy everyone in this game of limited communication that doesn't teach proper teamwork. Not to mention the amount of matches where people throw or DC immediately and the 4k is very much not deserved, but was handed over by other teammates. If there was no out in matches like that and you had no hope 1 minute in, I don't know why anyone would play this role. Not soloq, anyway.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085171#Comment_4085171
Because all takes are biased toward survivors when game balance is already wildly surv sided? People just use this thread to "i want bhvr to make unbalanced changes toward my side because I am bad at this game but still feel bad when I lose"
If you think everyone else is biased it might just be you who's biased.
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@Feather said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085205#Comment_4085205
I could probably phrase that title better. Yes, killers have pain res + dms combo which is very annoying, boring and brain dead, even more on high tier killers.
There was a lot of talking about sprint burst lately on forums, thats why i focused on thathttps://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085253#Comment_4085253
Regarding boost: i have lost of matches were sprint burst is used to avoid engagement. if they avoid engagement, they wont improve, and they show it with their skills. And again, if survivour knows what they do, they will obliterate with this perk.
There is no inbetween: Either survivour is very bad or very good when they use that perk, and they are both annoying even if i win against bad oneI'm well aware of the issues of SB. I just made a post about myself a few days ago. Vigil definitely needs to be changed. But this is still the same issue on both sides. I've used aura for most of my time playing killer. Consequently, my macro is not great. I just follow the info. But I also don't ever use SB, Windows, or Vigil as survivor and I've yet to become good at chase, even with a good amount of play time. Not using certain perks won't make you great.
You're also assuming everyone wants to improve. People on the forum probably take this game too seriously. The average player just sees it as some occasiaonl diversion, not an Olympic sport.
@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085253#Comment_4085253
Can't ignore what was said about players who have better awareness using the same sort of thing, it's true that they do become relatively untouchable for the lower tier M1 killers. Sprint Burst and Vigil are far too powerful. It's fine to have perks that assist your performance in chase, but you can't have perks that pardon you from needing to perform at all.
There's more than one way to perform in this game. I don't like chase as survivor and try to avoid it until I have to make myself known for my team's sake. Otherwise, I work behind the scenes, and if the one and only time the killer sees me is when I'm walking through the gate with my team, that's the best accomplishment to me in this game.
Killers often defend certain unliked tactics because "diverse playstyles" and "choice" but will expect survivors to all play the same way and try to strip away at perks that encourage that. I see way more diversity in survivor builds and tactics than i see in killer ones currently and I'd like to keep that diversity. If killers all want to bring anti-gen instead of perks that help in chase, than they should expect survivors with chase perks to often outdo them.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
I’m fine with Dead Hard (press E to outplay) as long as NOED (free kills for playing poorly) exists. I think both are bad for the game and either need to be reworked or eliminated.
The current bug where noed announces itself at last gen completed is kind of the perfect rework.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085251#Comment_4085251
If I feel some survivors just simply aren't doing their part, I'll usually eliminate them then let the rest of the survivors go. Like, if I feel a match is a bust, I remove the issue then let everyone else get a pass.
I do this too but unfortunately most people don't. Understanding and empathy have been rare in my survivior matches for awhile. I'm shocked when someone gives me the hatch nowadays, even though I do it pretty much everyday.
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Both sides are equally boosted by perks, and the meta should be obliterated on both. I've won many killer matches solely because of my build. Almost everyone is perk dependent. Very good players play without perks. Until you do that yourself—and win—you have little argument.
But you're also saying someone was boosted even though you beat them. So how effective was the boost?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085140#Comment_4085140
Honestly, the dynamic between those two possibilities is what keeps me playing survivor. I'm almost entirely solo-queue, and I like surprising my other 3 teammates with a solo who actually knows how to loop, take hits, and work as a team. That being said, you sometimes simply get really bad other teammates, so you never know quiet what to expect - which is what I like. Sometimes it's a sweatfest, sometimes it's an even game, sometimes you wonder what on earth are the others thinking, and sometimes everyone just has this unusual mutual understanding on what to do.
I like it and I don't. Unexpected is interesting, but losing in the lobby because the matchmaking gave you giga potatoes is not. I don't like it as killer either, when it feels free. Too much of the game feels random.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085152#Comment_4085152
i agree with your first statement, there should be some alternative objective for survivors when 2 of them remains so they can actually put some effort instead of just hiding. I never said slugging is healthy, but game literally forces you if you want to guarantee 4k after a deserved win. Slugging at 2 survs is the most logical and rational thing possible if you are going for 4k. Only reason every killer doesn't do that because its massive waste of time. Thats what is actually silly.
Also at the end of the day for survivors its a team game, if your team loses you also should lose. It should't be allowed to take a deserved win for killer just because someone got unlucky with a team, well too bad bro, there are enough games that will allow your individual skill expression to matter more(or just play killer). "surv" side in the assymetrical genre isn't about that.
Only reason every killer doesn't do that because its massive waste of time.
Definitely not true. Plenty of people don't feel the need to wipe everyone out. 3k is a win.
if your team loses you also should lose
Survivors are four individual people that, if soloing, have nothing to do with one another. The game doesn't have enough team elements in its basic makeup to make this fair. As it is, DCing and early game throws are rampant in my killler matches. I give people hatch in at least one match every time I play because of teammates ruining it immediately. I wouldn't want to see that ability removed. This game is not fair as it is. Survivors have to have at least individual hope in a lost match.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085144#Comment_4085144
You can hide in a locker whole game and still be last one to survive. In fact, usually, the last one who stays is some gen jockey who never goes for unhooks and either repairs or stays in the bushes whole game which is not really the brightest skill expression you can have on surv side.
And you are not going to suggest hiding in a locker or ctrl in bush while killer is in chase with another surv/ finding a hatch is some insane skill expression? First one i can understand although you would be better off playing prop hunt if thats gameplay you find intensive. Second one is straight up just luck…
Idk about your matches but the last person in my killer matches is often the one I ignored because they were too good at chase and too much effort, so the best person gets the hatch if they find it before me.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
First, what I'm about to say I entirely disagree with. That being said, the game is designed not as a team game. It is 4 individual survivors vs 1 killer. Each survivor has their own win condition. That's why there are no tie situations - 4 "matches" are going on at once simultaneously. The problem with this "every man for himself" system is that it can sometimes discourage survivors from playing together - there are even perks that actively encourage not working together such as sole survivor.
That being said, I really do think they should shift to a team vs killer game where survivors are expected to work together, and where working against other survivors is considered breaking the rules. This would also allow for survivors to have a higher escape rate because it would allow for tie games. The downside to this system is that survivors would entirely win or lose together, so even if you alone escape, you still lose (ie your team) - escaping would only mean getting some extra BP despite still getting a loss.
Both systems have their upsides and downsides, but at least survivors being an actual team and winning\losing together encourages survivors to actually work together.
I think this mentality applies to bad and new players (which is arguably most people) since macro teamwork is probably the most challenging part of survivor to execute. This is the real difference between soloq and SWF in my experience playing a lot of both. SWF players work as a group and care about one another, many solos don't. So the way I see it, when I load into a solo match, I'm either getting a bunch of eveyone-for-themselves bad players, or I get people who understand the best way to play. It makes it so there's two flavors to survivor, which is good and bad.
I'd personally like to see both a persoanl ER and a team winrate on the stats. If the numbers were visible it might change attitudes a bit. Would be interesting too.
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I've been calling for a manual bleedout speedup for awhile, even if it only kicks in when two people are left. That would make hooking more valuable and keep the match moving. I don't understand why killers are allowed to just avoid a whole part of the game because they don't like it.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085042#Comment_4085042
Hey, give them some credit. They'd probably be fine with treacherous crows and maybe no mither.
Funny coincidence, I just got out of a match with someone running No Mither, Treacherous Crows, AND Weaving Spiders. Bro hard threw that match. Would have been a 4K at 5 gens if I hadn't given one poor soul the hatch.
So yeah, I'm sure they'd all be fine with it.
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If people want to farm and I don't, I just shake my head at them and try to get them to engage. I'm really only friendly if DCs and throws have ruined the match, in which case I'll give someone hatch. Every once in awhile I'll let two or three people leave, if it was a really bad situation. But I've never been friendly just because someone wants me to be.
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It's a joke but it may well be the reality.
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@Firellius said:
IMO, tunnelling, slugging and camping are lynchpins to a lot of balance issues, and they're kept in place by a very vocal segment of killer players.
I also think that said killer players created their own problem by using these tactics to boost their MMR above where they would otherwise fall, which leads them into 'but these tactics are necessary to win' traps.
There's ways to improve the game balance in favour of killer without feeling unreasonable or unfair for survivors, but they're very hard to implement so long as tunnelling, slugging and camping are still there, since most changes would be direct buffs to these problem playstyles.
On the survivor side, I think the only thing that can be considered problematic in a somewhat comparable style to the TSC unholy trinity is hook denial (Flashlight saves, pallet saves, wiggling), and I think that is something that should get nerfed. It'd also impact high MMR 4-stacks more than solo.
I also think that said killer players created their own problem by using these tactics to boost their MMR above where they would otherwise fall, which leads them into 'but these tactics are necessary to win' traps.
I wish more people could see how they're their own worst enemy. If tunneling was done away with and easy wins above your ability weren't possible, the playerbase would actually be much happier. But what we have is a whole bunch of people boosted by cheese complaining about how hard it is when, in reality, they're just in over their heads. But then they also don't want to fall back down because MMR (which isn't even visible and is just assumed) is used as both a point of pride and a pity-me token.
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The fact that we have to ask these questions externally and the game doesn't make it very clear when you make a build is a problem. There needs to be visuals on the build selection screen that specifically tell you what's happening when you put perks together. I'm seeing people running diminished builds in-game and they likely have no idea.
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My thoughts are that CCs should be ignored. Deliverance has downsides, like an activation requirement that renders it useless in many matches if you don't get an unhook, or if you're first hook, as well as making you a potential tunnel target. These people won't be happy until every perk is worthless, or everyone plays perkless. Even then, they'll just find something else to make clickbait over.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084742#Comment_4084742
thats not mindset, thats my 1500h experience in this game.
When you 4k, survivors never ever write "gg", maybe once in 50 games. Why? because its frustrating to lose.
System you are suggesting works in team games. It would work for surv side, alright. But what you are suggesting just encourages killers to play friendly.
Also "Reward" should be just some iri shards or bloodpoints or rift points, like in overwatch. Definitely not something huge like cosmetics.
I'm not saying everyone are constantly hostile at each other, personally when i play surv i always acknowledge good players in aftergame chat. As killer, too. But you know what i dont ever do as a killer? Give free hatches. I always go for 4k. Would i ever get a like from survivor, even if i acknoweldge their skill after game? Doubt it. My steam profile is open, you want to know ratio of negative comments to positive comments? You dont EVER get positive comments in your profile if you dont give hatch to survivors or play friendly. Is it "good sportsmanship" you are talking about?As i said, this system might work for survivors, if its exclusive to survivors maybe even tie some cosmetic rewards to it because survivors are supposed to play as a team anyway. But it won't ever work for a killer side because thats just a nature of unique asymmetrical genre.
But what you are suggesting just encourages killers to play friendly.
You're saying this like it's bad. The game could use a bit less sweat.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
So, if Sprintburst and Lithe need a nerf, then to compensate for the SIGNIFICANTLY reduced chase times:
Nerf ALL gen regression perks.If nerfing these two perks drastically altered the outcome of games overall then there's a big issue with survivors crutching on perks. I no longer use Exhaustion perks. The extra 5s BT was enough for me to take off Lithe. I get above average results without it. Anyone would If they learn to live without them.
But I'd love to see all regression and all Exhaustion nerfed. I can't stand either of them.
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@BigKingWoof said:
Coming back to this and being more mature about it, I will say that you are pretty much correct that if a survivor is too good, or rather, too troublesome to catch in a timely manner, then they just won't. The idea is to be as much of a distraction as you possible can be, so you have to be enticing enough to catch, but not too much to dissuade the killer. SB is such a hot topic right now that killers just sigh in annoyance when they see it, and possibly won't want to deal with it.
Personally, I don't see SB as a problem on its own. You either have to walk the entire match, or waste it getting to somewhere and not have it when you need it. Throwing Vigil in there, I see where that becomes a problem. I feel like a lot of killers complain about exhaustion perks simply because they feel they're owed an easy down, but I'm all for them being changed for the sake of shaking the meta. Things have been the same for a bit too long, and I want to see how the playerbase adapts to the new meta.I appreciate this more thorough response.
The idea is to be as much of a distraction as you possible can be, so you have to be enticing enough to catch, but not too much to dissuade the killer.
Yeah, this is the balance. Sometimes I'll ego chase even though I know I'm throwing, but not always. The middle ground of enticement is hard to land but important, and faking being worse than you are is probably harder for some than others.
SB is such a hot topic right now that killers just sigh in annoyance when they see it, and possibly won't want to deal with it.
I was not aware of this. My only engagement with the community is this forum (and everything is complained about here), and takes are from my own experiences. That's warped my view a little in a way, because maining Henry since his release, SB is his biggest weakness. I'm often put in the aforementioned situation where I approach someone while in Undergate and they just stare at me, and I know how it's going to go. If I emerge, they run with a guarantee of no hit, and my undergate is now on cooldown. They're also out of M2 range. I can't do anything against them unless I'm running Rabbit Remains, so they've made it not worth it. It's not a situation I really enjoy being in.
I feel like a lot of killers complain about exhaustion perks simply because they feel they're owed an easy down, but I'm all for them being changed for the sake of shaking the meta
I don't personally think I'm owed anything. I'm just making the point that if people play like this, the killer may shift their tactics. I do think Vigil is the bigger issue though, when combined with SB.
Like I said above, I'd love to see the top meta perks on both sides obliterated. I can't stand anti-gen on killers either. I'd like to see a perkless modifier as well. I believe a lot of good info could be gathered from such an event.
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Dying? No. Becoming less fun? Somewhat.
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@ArcT said:
The argument here is that Sprint Burst + Pre-running makes it too much of a burden to chase, even through an area you know gens are being worked on.
But Sprint Burst + Pre-running + Unhook protections + Anti-tunnel perks is not a burden at all, even though you're just walking back and forth through an area devoid of survivors.
Therefore, nerf Sprint Burst.
If Sprint Burst + Pre-running truly was that much of an obstacle, then it's equally as much a protection from being tunnelled. And yet, it's apparently not one at all. It's not even thought of as any kind of protection from being tunnelled to immediately relocate to a safer part of the map in the opposite direction of the killer.
And we can extend this to any number of other perks. Resurgence? Heal fast off hook to make tunnelling more difficult. Oh wait, if you want to counter that, you camp and hit immediately off unhooke, therefore it indirectly encourages killers to camp tunnel. We'll Make It? Same deal. Off the Record? Again, hit immediately off hook to instantly counter it, therefore indirectly encourages tunnelling.
The issue is not with Sprint Burst or Pre-running. It's with the ability of survivors to protect themselves or teammates from being tunnelled being completely insubstantial, and most of them countered simply by tunnelling even more aggressively. Anything that protects someone from being tunneled can simultaneously be seen as an indirect encouragement to tunnel someone else.
Therefore, nerf Sprint Burst.
I didn't say nerf. I think it should be changed. It's got no activation requirements and with Vigil it's way too available through the match. If anything needs a nerf, it's Vigil. I also said if we have a meta shakeup. It shouldn't be changed in a vacuum. If I had it my way, the 10 most popular perks for both roles would be deleted from the game.
If you want to argue SB as an anti-tunnel option, then it could have a brief period of being lengtier haste after you're unhooked, but some other downside every other time.
The issue is not with Sprint Burst or Pre-running. It's with the ability of survivors to protect themselves or teammates from being tunnelled being completely insubstantial, and most of them countered simply by tunnelling even more aggressively
This isn't really true though. You just have to be cautious with unhooks. That's how you protect teammates. If the killer isn't in chase with anyone, I don't unhook. If possible, I generally wait by the hook until another person is in chase (and preferably injured) and the TR is fully away. Killers come back to the hook when options aren't as viable. This is just a fact. Accept it or don't.
Anything that protects someone from being tunneled can simultaneously be seen as an indirect encouragement to tunnel someone else.
Again, not even remotely what I'm saying. If I keep seeing walking SBers staring at me, waiting to run away when I get closer, they're not getting tunneled. They're not even getting hooked. I'm ignoring them until two other people are dead. And they would never think to blame their own actions, despite seeing me ignore them multiple times. No, its just a villainous tunneler. Can't possibly be shared responsibility.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084805#Comment_4084805
One of my favourite macro moves is when I can see my teammates are on the last gen, I'll do something dumb in the killers face and run them in the completely opposite direction of that gen, by the time I'm downed and hooked the gen is usually done
It's risky but it's very rewarding and satisfying when done right.
Exactly. And not enough people think this way. I think it's partially an experience thing, and partially a SWF vs solo thing. People don't trust the other solos to not just open the gates and leave, even when you did an intentional thing to win the game.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084743#Comment_4084743
Like I would be against droping chase? SB or lythe,overcome all these perks can make you or even force too switch targets so I dont what is this discovery at tenth aniverdary of the game.
Tunneling when you cant go other way because you would loose isnt bad thing. Going sfter one you find as only one or who runs into you even when he was hooked last isnt bad thing either thats like as survivor leaving 99 gen when killer has active ruin a stupid choice so Idk whats problem here if he want to be no no tunnel hero then he can but its not realistic especialy not on all killers like slower or none mobility ones.
Tunneling is disliked. There have been efforts to cut it down. One survivor's actions or perks can cause a non-tunnneling killer to tunnel, and SB prerunners contribute heavily to that. That's the point.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084697#Comment_4084697
I think its being done intentionally, or people just genuinely don't play both sides.
I had this issue running Scene Partner I was simply too awesome and untouchable that all my friends just die painfully that I had to acknowledge that and start running Shoulder the Burden
I wish this was the case for me. I love Scene Partner for its hilarity but it go me killed a lot. So now I have a zero-fun build.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/468085/sprint-burst-can-encourage-tunneling
There's a lot that encourages tunneling. Taking an endurance protection hit off of hook is basically begging the killer to tunnel you.
And sometimes surviors are just too good in chase. If you juice chase with killer and they can't catch you, if they have a brain, they'll start to straight up ignore and not engage in chase. They'll opt to tunnel the easier options instead. Sometimes to prevent tunneling you have to be catchable and even be willing to throw yourself on hook to prevent the tunnel.
Anything that makes you harder to catch is going to encourage killer to apply pressure to someone else. Sprint burst is definitely a major culprit of this, an uninjured surv hauling ass away with an sb prerun is basically a non starter for chase. Any smart killer won't engage.
Sometimes to prevent tunneling you have to be catchable and even be willing to throw yourself on hook to prevent the tunnel.
I wish more people understood how significant of a macro power move this can be. It feels really nice as survivor to have three gens pop right as the killer gets their first hook, but I also know how that stress spike feels for that killer, and that someone who wasn't going to be nasty might kick it into overdrive. I often fake a bad chase and get downed to lower their stress levels and distract them, and since I run perks that make me almost untunnelable, they're not likely to catch me if they come back to the hook, and then, we have the advantage. The most important thing I think there is to know about survivor gameplay is that hook states are a shared resource.
Sprint burst is definitely a major culprit of this, an uninjured surv hauling ass away with an sb prerun is basically a non starter for chase. Any smart killer won't engage.
And that's exactly why I think it's a harmful perk for survivors overall, unless it's a 4man and they're all running it.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084697#Comment_4084697
That's the thing. Killers always tunnel when they are loosing and if you tunnel against people running sprint burst and other very basic perks then your mmr will go up because you aren't skilled enough to win without tunneling and the cycle repeats. It does not matter if you are loading into a game looking to tunnel or not but the simple fact that by heavily inflating your mmr you are guaranteed to go against better opponents than your skill level and then when you are forced to tunnel because of a lack of pressure the cycle repeats.
Interesting to have my own often-used MMR inflation argument used against me. If I'm tunneling intentionally (which is rare) I've probably already lost, so my MMR is going down whether I get that one kill or not. On the flipside, I regularly give hatch or let two or three people go because of DCs or throws, so those are free escapes that would have raised my MMR. Tunneling will excessively inflate your MMR if you do it constantly, and subsequently win constantly because of it. That's not what is being discussed. A standing SBer waiting for my approach is not a more skillful opponent. There's little skill being displayed there.
This isn't even solely about tunneling, it's about tunneling as an incidental result of people using perks to cheese out of chases. Returning to the hook is almost always the more time saving and efficient option than pursing the SB/Vigil user, and that's not good.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
And the goalpost gets moved further and further. Killers know that if they complain enough, they get more and more from the Devs. Now Sprint Burst is the target, once this is done, we will see people calling for Lithe-Nerfs.
You dont lose games because of Sprint Burst. You lose games because you are not as good as you think you are. Try to improve instead of getting everything nerfed.
Feel free to downvote, this is also easier than trying to become good at a game.
Perks can and do win matches though. I've won matches because of Nurse's Calling, and I've lost them because of 4 SBs against a 4.4. Same in survivor. My current 60% ER is because of perks, items, and offerings, not so much skill. I lose a lot of my survivor matches solely to annoying builds as well. If anything, perks in this game often overshadow the need for skill. RNG and luck accomplish more in the average match than actual ability.
As I said, people will not suddenly stop playing Blight or Ghoul when Survivor-Perks get nerfed, since they will just have easier games with them.
These killers already don't care about SB though. I don't want to see all killers get mobility, I'd like to see killers like these knocked down to a slower pace. This is sort of a loop. Can't nerf fast killers because of haste, can't nerf haste because of fast killers. Then just do both at the same time, I guess? Something should change. But this community is so resistant to even minor changes that it feels impossible to do anything, so we're just stuck.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084697#Comment_4084697
Agreed. Fear not, as someone who converses with you often enough on here I do recognize you're not pro-tunnelling. Your position makes it all the more abundantly clear to me that perhaps SB really is a bigger issue.
It is however enlightening to see people accusing you of all people with the standard ' Any excuse to tunnel ' replies. I'm beginning to suspect that anything but self-flaggellation would be unacceptable to some of these posters.As someone who has spent much of their time in the forum being labeled an entitled survivor main It's kinda funny to be on the other side of it. It shows how knee-jerky this community is. I don't expect everyone to know who I am and what my takes are or anything, but I'm saying I'm anti-tunnel so maybe consider what I'm telling you? Feeling boxed into tunneling as my only option makes me very unhappy.
It's not just SB itself, it's often how people choose to use it, like that one Gabriel I posted. That's basically a rat build in disguise. As someone who uses stealth perks and tactics on survivor, I know when it's time for me to stop doing that and take aggro so the killer thinks they still have the upperhand, even when they don't.
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I don't think he got nerfed at all, all we lost was Tombstone, which was very unfair. I just think the rework sucks. Stalk is too quick and easy and the dash is unfun to go against and unappealing to play with. I hate the concept of uncounterable basekit moris too but we seem to be going more in that direcrion. I still play him occasionally, but only with Scratched Mirror.
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The damage that Ghoul has done to this game's feel and trajectory cannot be fixed. His kit was the worst mistake they ever made.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
playing Henry long enough will turn you into a ghoul apologist so I'm gonna say demo even though I'd say demo is technically at a lower power level
ps hey you still got that gif of ada being munched on by Jaws?
Nothing can turn me into a Ghoul apologist.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084707#Comment_4084707
last time i played against a twins, i got 4ked at 5 gens
That's the typical experience. The players usually know what they're doing, and the survivors see them so little that they don't know as much. If it's soloq it's gg. And I refuse to even unlock this killer even though it'd help me learn to play them.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084702#Comment_4084702
I feel Twins are so damn rare that I just don't get the chance to learn how to play against them. I can kidnap Victor to the opposite corner, but when things don't go perfect I struggle to know what I should be doing to avoid a snowball.
During the last 2v8 I had 3 Twins in a week. I was ready to uninstall.
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Lord that's a hard choice. I dislike half this roster. Probably Twins? With a lot of killers, it's the players and not the kit that I dislike. But Twins has such a god awfully designed kit. If they were popular and I saw them everyday I honestly might drop survivor entirely.
Second place probably goes to Legion. Annoying as hell and I think Killer Instinct is the most poorly designed mechanic in the game. It shouldn't exist.
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I think the point was kinda lost here. I'd just like people to recognize that the use of certain perks in certain ways can put a killer into a tight spot. I don't ever load in looking to tunnel, but if I have people using SB to try to run me to shack where no gens are being worked on and I have no pressure, I'm going to turn around and go back to the unhook notification I just got because I know there are two people out of position over there. Some perks, even ones that don't seem like they're chase avoidance perks, can be used in a way that's detrimental to your team. And SB is a very free and easy way to frustrate a killer into swerving. I don't think people want to accept that their actions can lead to their teammates getting tunneled.
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@NeverSolus said:
Couldn't agree more, though I'm sad to say it.
As a religious Huntress player, with her 4.4 and map-broken anti-loop, I simply cannot afford to waste time. If I see Feng has SB and the others don't, I start ignoring Feng even if she's plainly in sight. If I notice that every time I go for Sable her scratch marks disappear, I'll stop going for what I believe to be Sable. It's not a matter of wanting to tunnel, it's just a realistic assessment of what I can accomplish in that window of time. I establish the weakest link and if the weakest link is the only one I can down or find, then that's the only one I'm going to down or chase.
People love to call it an excuse to tunnel, but the reality of the matter is I couldn't care less about tunneling. I'm not pro or against when I queue into a game, it's just a tactic. Sure it's annoying to do and will probably cost me the match, but I'm not going to run around the same loop thirteen times and chase Dwight for a three-gen stretch just because I have some moral quandry against tunneling. Whether people enjoy that or not doesn't matter to me, because at that point I'm no longer enjoying myself either ; enjoyment has been removed as a factor of calculus for the rest of that given match.
There are alot of perks like this, most of them exhaustion perks. SB is the worst offender by far and away, however.I mean, I do have a moral quandary with it, and I do my best to always spread hooks, and also will still try not to three-hook in these situations. But if every target holds W against my 4.4 killer before I can engage with any of them, I'm going back to the hook. And hopefully the unhooker takes aggro. I don't have enough time to do anything else without throwing. I lose matches all the time because I spread hooks. I regularly have 8-hook matches with 1 or 0 kills because of it. But at least engagement occured there. Zooming away at the first indication of my presence is not engaging, and doesn't help your team. But it's big picture stuff and no one wants to hear that.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084503#Comment_4084503
It's hard to take complaints very seriously when frustration is packaged as poor balance. 😭 I am definitely concerned about the system creating situations where every pallet is in one area and the rest of the map is vacant though.
Yeah for sure. Bugs gotta go.