cogsturning
cogsturning
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Mostly what you said. I don't consider tbagging during chase to be toxic though. It's generally strategic, done by confident players who want to tilt you into staying with them. I don't consider sabo players toxic either. Those perks and tactics are part of the game. This again comes down to confidence. If I'm playing killer and someone keeps being aggressive with sabos, rescues, or a flashlight, I just turn my aggression up as well. That's all just gameplay.
I guess what i consider toxic is things the other player is helpless to stop or retaliate against. Tbagging at the gates is stupid and unnecessary, especially if the killer wasn't being crappy in any way. I absolutely hate it when teammates do this to killers who did terrible. There's no need to rub salt in the wound. Humping, hitting on hook, and nodding at a downed survivor are the same.
Killing people at gates or by hatch after pretending to be cool is probably the grossest thing you can do. It's happened to me plenty of times, and I always give people a very safe distance when I'm being cool as killer because I know everyone with time in the game has been burned by this.
End game chat I actually love for the trash talk. At least everyone is equal in chat and can clapback as they please. There's no power imbalance there.
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@SaltyNooty said:
It's generally very rare that killers grab my respect since almost all of them play in a way or possess a power that makes the match absolutely miserable for a Solo Q survivor such as myself. (Such as Sadako's Hit and Run, teleport to every tv and then tunnel out the survivor who's reached max condemned)
However, the few killers that DO gain my respect beyond the basic necessities of not being toxic, BMING or making the match itself an absolute hell on earth just to play. (Ahem, Max-Slow down/Thanaphobia, No heal Legions.) They are—
- Billies
- Bubbas.
- Huntress.
- Blights. (I used to hate him when he first released but now I find myself wishing face more of him then the tokyo mid anime character.)
- Wesker
- Lich
- Springtrap.
- Henry (I LOVE facing off against him and genuinely respect people for getting use to his skill curve because he's not braindead easy and therefore, most people avoid him. Also biased towards stranger things.)
So, 8 out of the 42 (Soon to be 43 Killers.)
Everyone else either sits on Neutral "I can handle playing against you for a bit" list or "I'd literally rather have a 72 hour DC penality then play against this killer again", dislike list.I wish everybody had this enthusiasm for Henry. This was me playing last night:
https://youtu.be/LaEAh7mPXOM?si=Oi59iq5it_wr_iKdI get lots of AFKs too. They just refuse to play.
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@popi_mar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082442#Comment_4082442
@cogsturning Yeah , I agree with you on that. Some things like chase quality or protection hits would be hard to measure consistently for sure.
My point is more that kills and escapes are also imperfect. A survivor can play well and die, or play badly and still escape. A killer can create pressure, get 7–8 hooks, and still end with low kills.
So I’m not saying every action should directly raise MMR. I’m saying broader match data could be used as a secondary layer, even if it’s not perfect. It would still give a better picture than only looking at the final result.If I recall, pips used to increase your rank in the old system, and those are based on doing a little of everything. I don't know if I'd adapt that exactly as it has its issues, but that's probably a better start because you have to at least do a variety of things regularly. The tricky part, as I see it, are killers who hard cheese. If you 4man slug with no hooks, you won't boost, and as far as I'm concerned, those people need to sky rocket to the top of the sweat tower.
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@TropesDaMan said:
Pardon me for a horrendously stupid question your about to hear. What is MMR? i have heard its like a way of skill based matchmaking. I dont understand it that much
It's a hidden point system used for matchmaking. You gain points when you kill/escape through gates. You lose points when you get no or low kills/die. The amount of points you gain or lose depends on the amount your openness have. Defeating a higher level opponent will boost you more.
It should mean you get matched with people similar to your skill level, but even if the system was a true test of skill, it seems to just match people almost randomly at times.
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Billy and Deathslinger. Both skill based with good counterplay and a lot of room for skill expression. And you can't really do gimmicky, cheese stuff on them like some killer powers allow for.
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Oh, I have another one:
The abandon option shouldn't exist. It's a lazy way to avoid dealing with in-game issues in a meaningful way.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082800#Comment_4082800
Houndmaster is only unpopular because of the bugs plaguing the dog, not because she's unfun. Krasue on the other hand, was only played because she was initially overpowered, but people fundamentally just don't think her playstyle is fun to play with.
Normally if bhvr brought a killer back with bugs still intact, it's usually because they thought that they had fixed the character.
Again, i don't believe that there is any favoritism in terms of who gets fixed fastest based on popularity, only which bugs are easiest to fix, while other bugs are not as easy to fix. Frankly, any talk of bhvr doing x or y because something does or does not make them money, always just sounds like something akin to that of conspiracy talk.
Ultimately however, the only one who knows for certain what their bug fixing process and priority looks like is bhvr themselves.
I don't know if a company that exists to make money doing things that make them money is exactly a conspiracy. They're not a charity or a crowd funded passion project. I expect them to follow money and nothing else, as with any company.
Yes but it's amply apparent that Wesker's unfair advantage through bugs remains, yet they didn't kill switch him again. He's slated for more fixes with the next chapter, but how many weeks is that on the loose, phasing people through solid objects?
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082787#Comment_4082787
Most licensed characters' powers are also neither truly original nor pushing the technical envelope in what the game can handle. Most licensed characters are relatively safe in their implementation, as bhvr is not really trying anything they haven't done before in some fashion or form through other Killer powers.
It's less about them fixing original Killers not making money, since that basically applies to the entirety of the game and fixing it, and more about bandwidth and some bugs being harder to fix than others. It's why Twins has a similar issue in fixing bugs related to Victor.
Also i don't think it's true to say alot of originals are a one-and-done, when it's only really some specific outliers that are that.
I'm not really arguing IPs are more original in design, more that they receive more care.
The one-and-done has been a recent issue, I mean. Krasue and Houndmaster specifically. It doesn't help that these killers aren't very popular anyway, so there isn't much motivation. They're not truly one-and-done, nothing is, but the fixes they get often seem to not work or to be of no substance.
What I mean, though, is also how bugs are treated. Houndmaster has had long time bugs that make her borderline unplayable if they trigger. Legion had a bug that benefited him, and he got killswitched for it (and rightfully so). Now take Wesker, who was also killswitched for bugs that benefited him–and then quickly came back with the bugs still intact. It's ridiculous he's still grabbing people through walls and whacking them well past range at vaults. But if they were bugs that hurt him, I'm sure he would have been fixed very, very fast. People won't tolerate the super popular characters (many of which happen to be IPs) being out of commission long. And it's logical to assume Wesker also still steadily sells with newer players who don't have him yet. I don't think they're buying Houndmaster. Some killers are low priority because there's no reason for them not to be.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082767#Comment_4082767
tbf, Houndmaster's main problem are bugs with the dog, and Krasue got shafted hard because of the anti-tunneling features that originally was supposed to be added alongside her chapter, in that same update. Only for it to never happen and causing Krasue to be left to rot by bhvr.
Also Houndmaster's power is similar to Twins, in that the dog is completely unique from a technical and originality standpoint.
However i'd argue that what one considers to be of higher quality nowadays, mainly comes own to whoever you ask.
That's my point, being left to rot is for originals. They could fix Houndmaster's bugs, they could make Krasue less lame, but they don't because there's no money in it. IPs don't come out this buggy. Henry has a few bugs but nothing like Houndmaster, and she's been around a hot second now. They don't get the hardest nerfs on earth either. Henry got some small ones, Ghoul is still dispised a year in, but Krasue got blasted. They kinda one-and-done a lot of the originals. I wish they cared more but I don't see the same level of effort in them. They don't make money, so why bother?
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@Mistfit said:
I have a few and a lot of them I'm going to get hate for.
We don't need survivors every chapter when all they really don't do anything different outside of how they look. Behavior can just drop more universal perks. We also don't need double survivors every chapter they can do what they did with Asteri and make them a double survivor in one character. We don't need 5 million perks on the survivor side.
I also think that if we don't get a survivor in a chapter we shouldn't get one a few weeks later.
The game needs more maps and no not variations new maps more maps need reworks like Swamp. New maps also don't have to be ungodly large.
Saying tunneling and camping makes you bad at DBD isn't true you just don't like that it happened to you, no one cares how many kills you get in your own games by playing nice. People are playing to win and getting someone out as fast as possible is an effective strategy.
People complain that something is to overpowered before attempting to find proper counterplay which is why we don't have a lot more unique perks and powers.
I think original chapters are far better than the licenses they bring in.
I think if we couldn't get a proper Friday the 13th chapter (which we didn't and would have never gotten) then they shoud have never bothered touching Jason IMO
2v8 isn't really that good and could be fleshed out more. We could've had proper maps and still allowed the killer to use their addons and everyone can use their own perks.
Behavior could take a 3 month period off from putting out a killer to drop a massive killer(s) buff/tweaks/reworks along with perks and make changes for both sides.
I've got more but this is enough for now.
I think original chapters are far better than the licenses they bring in
If you mean better quality-wise, I want to agree with but I just can't. I much prefer when dbd has its own voice and I wish they'd drop adding licenses entirely at this point, but it's hard to deny that modern dbd puts more effort into IP characters than originals. Compare recent killers like Henry, Springtrap, and Ghoul to Krasue and Houndmaster. The IPs are more creative, more fun to play, and better thought out. Five of my ten most used killers are from IPs. Three are from ones I've never interacted with ever, one is from a movie I thought was garbage, and only one is from an IP I like. The five killers who are originals are older ones. IP killers are just better nowadays, even if you don't care about the franchise.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082726#Comment_4082726
- People are influenced by biased content creators hellbent on a paycheck more than they think and it's ruining both modern gaming and the ability to think for yourself.
Reminds me of how whenever Otz is angry or sad, you always got some boot-licking fanboys that glorifies Otz and puts him on a pedestal 24/7, who opens a new thread just to remark how upsetting they find it that Otz was either angry or sad
I don't know how people aren't embarrassed to come here and parrot these guys. Even without watching them, I can always tell when a certain phrase or line of reasoning is being repeated all over that it's from one of the big CCs. Is it really that hard to play the video game yourself and form your own opinions?
It's a lot like the world of political commentators. Same teamy mindset. Same braindead adherence by followers. Same treating of their opinons like its more valuable than a 1000 others combined. Same money and power-fueled biases disguised as genuine concerns. I just don't know why so many can't see it.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082728#Comment_4082728
Yeah l noticed when I play killer and people abandon it counts them as escaping. I don’t get it.
It counts as kills in your numbers. I tested it awhile back here:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/460944/stat-page-accuracy-test
That's just a visual thing on killer end. But on survivor, the match is just deleted entirely from their overall numbers, falsely inflating their personal stats by removing deaths.
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It still removes abandons from your record too. They don't seem to have any interest in fixing it, yet they'll still promote it.
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Players blame the game for their shortcomings instead of improving. It's not really an unpopular opinion until you send it at someone directly. Many agree with it until it's about them.
People are influenced by biased content creators hellbent on a paycheck more than they think and it's ruining both modern gaming and the ability to think for yourself.
Stealth survivor is alive and well if you know how to utilize the right perks.
Killer Instinct is a bad design and is the most handholdy thing in the game.
Chain blinding a killer shouldn't be possible.
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There are too many perks but most are crap, and anytime a perk that's useful comes into existence it gets screamed about until it also becomes crap. Even when we get new perks that gets used, like Five Moves Ahead or Turn Back the Clock, they're just different variations of stuff we already have.
If anything, what we have is stagnation, and that's mostly because this community hates change and the devs cave to their outcries.
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@TWiXT said:
Of course he'll get nerfed, there's no question about that, the real question is "When".
My bet is on 2-4 weeks after the live release (depending on how vocal the survivors complaints are), that way, people who buy him can have their fun for a couple of weeks, bhvr can make bank off the new killer, and when all the dust starts settling, that's when the other boot will drop and he'll get the Krasue treatment.
This is exactly why I choose not to buy a new killer until a month after release… I don't want buyers remorse when I can't get a refund, nor will I choose to buy any killer that gets nerfed into the ground. I learned that lesson hard when I bought Pig on her release, and no matter how many "buffs" they've given her in the years since they went on a nerfing rampage in her first few months, she's still D-tier crap that I shouldn't have spent money on! It's better to wait until you see just how much a new killer is gonna get nerfed, and then make the decision on whether to get them or not; don't fall for the initial hype, it's never worth it.
It's been a while since the Pig days. He won't get the Krasue treatment. Part of her problem was her overall design, but the other side is that she was purchasable with shards and a non-IP. Same with Skull Merchant. Jason is probably going to be more like Ghoul, who is still being complained about but who is also probably still making money because of his braindead reputation. And Jason is going to make a lot of money. So serious nerfs will be pretty unlikely. Even Henry, our most recent IP, received only some small post-release nerfs, and he's not even very popular for a new killer.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082481#Comment_4082481
Pretty much this. The game is centered around Survivors having "3 Lifes", one lost after every Hook. The game is not balanced around Survivors only having "1 Life", so the result is that slugging is extremely strong.
We can certainly balance around that, but then Survivors would need serious Buffs to adjust to the gameplay Killers want. But as you said, this would result in a completely different game.
And these people don't want a different game. They want to exploit the system we have for an easier time in this one.
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@Mrpugalug916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082521#Comment_4082521
Its almost every game that they get to endgame lol. Especially if there are 3-4 still alive. But once again just because one player never sees it because they dont play killer at high mmr, it doesnt happen. Survivors are just wholesome goofballs right? They cant do anything wrong and it's the big meanie killers fault for playing killer
That's not what i responded to? I've never seen survivors wait at a gate to open it, nor have I ever once experienced a server shut down. I've never had an hour long match. I've never even heard of this scenario occurring and don't know who would waste their time on purpose in this way.
You're projecting is wild though. The survivors I play against are coordinated, aggressive, and often in parties. You don't know my MMR. You don't know yours either. But if they're getting to end game in almost all your matches that's a you issue, and maybe you don't belong at that high MMR you assume you're at.
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@ManinaMask said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082504#Comment_4082504
That's exactly what survivors want. They want you to come over and look at them. They'll be waiting for you at the closed exit gate until you're forced to open it or stay in the match until the server inevitably shut down.
Things I have never once seen happen.
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@Mrpugalug916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082430#Comment_4082430
Slugging for the 4k is valid. If 1 survivor is alive they can get hatch. And if the killer gets hatch the survivor can still find a key, or open the exit gates. Everything is in survivors favor. Killer gets 1 option to reliably kill all 4 and thats slugging for the 4k
All the things you described are normal gameplay. Keys and hatch and gates being powered are supposed to exist. Perks are supposed to exist. Everything you keep trying to avoid keeps making it sound like you don't want to interact with anything intended in this game. If one uncounterable decsion made by one player negates tons of gameplay elements then it needs to be changed.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082465#Comment_4082465
I've yet to see how Slugging counters sprint burst...
You realize that can basically translate to "I don't want to deal with the opposing teams perks" correct? Aka you don't want to actually play with people.
The perk excuse is getting pretty embarrassing. Not wanting to interact with anything that's part of normal gameplay, like opposing perks and hooks, means you want to play a different game.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081384#Comment_4081384
Thank you for the most valuable sentence here:
Hell I felt it
IMMEDIATELYon my first game back from an extensive break away from the game.This is what is wrong with DBD-players. EVERYTHING is at fault for them performing not as good, except themselves. It is impossible that you might just be rusty if you had an extensive break from the game. No, it must be the game itself which is an issue, otherwise you would have 4Ked easily.
And this thread just shows it once again. We even have a Killer who is winning here, yet a 20 second clip is the big gospel.
And this thread just shows it once again. We even have a Killer who is winning here, yet a 20 second clip is the big gospel.
That's the forum special: "I won, but I was slightly inconvenienced. Please nerf."
If anything, it shows how little the pallets really do in most cases. Very few killers are hindered by them.
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@Salafur said:
Matter of fact I use abandon not that often, sometimes I try to hide from the killer to bleed out. Or try to crawl to find the hatch anywhere… I just abandon when I have to do something else in RL. But are you sure it changes the escape rate? It shouldn’t when you abandon it should count as not escaped because you didn’t „escape“ if that’s like you said behavior should fix it because it wouldn’t representative right stats
Yes I'm sure. It's been discussed many times here, and tested by forum members as well. It doesn't count as an escape though, it nullifies the match. So if you play 100 matches and abandon 10, it will be like you only played 90 matches, even though the killer still gets the kill on their end. Track your numbers and you'll see it. There have been multiple efforts to ask why this is (and why it hasn't been changed) but no explanation has been given.
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@Salafur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082457#Comment_4082457
you said - escape should be by 40% and even high MMR are under 50% normally … I said I escape more than I die… (and I’m not even great in running Parcours … - imagine the numbers of good survivors … )
following the normal dbd stats that should be the escape should be by give or take 40%The average goal for the game is 40%. An average means some will be higher and some will be lower. I didn't say escapes should be 40% (I dont think they should be) I said everyone should have an ER way above it if survivor "plays itself". I'm assuming you also use the abandon option, as most people do? That raises your personal escape rate by removing the matches you used it in.
My 30 day is significantly higher than yours but I'm not everyone. Most people don't maintain numbers like that. Whenever people post their overall ERs in the forum, they're usually around 35-40%. I would not keep playing survivor if my ER was 40% after thousands and thousands of matches. The lower end of the 40% is probably maintained by the lower portion of the playerbase, as killer is much easier to win as amongst lesser-skilled players. People who have developed gamesense and have spent time in the game should have higher ERs. Same for killers with KRs.
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081886#Comment_4081886
Yeah, weaker Kindred would be my choice too. I don't really trust people enough to give them free Bond. I've been sold out to the Killer by bad team mates to many times.
Only good part is you would also have Bond, so you'd see it coming, but running away also leaves scratch marks so... yeah.
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@Salafur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082446#Comment_4082446
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2ZT94BJ9ZZ3V/img-0016.png
slightly over 51% but more than dead
So you think winning half of your matches (of a small sample) makes survivors too strong? I certainly expect to escape a minimum of 50% of my survivor matches, just like I expect to win more killer matches than I lose. Should people with experience plan on consistently losing more than they win? Why would anyone keep playing if they never advanced in numbers?
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I would assume the point of pallet density was to help with tunneling. And judging from all these unattended dropped pallets in this clip—and someone dead at 3 gens up with almost no one else having hooks—it did not actually help with tunneling, or keep you from winning. So I'm not sure you stopping to break pallets on your path to victory is a great argument against the pallets.
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@Salafur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082428#Comment_4082428
oh it’s that easy to escape, most games are just lost because the 3 guys try to save the one that is hook-camped during endgame and then they sometimes get a backlash…. I escape more than I die and most likely not alone… - it’s that easy when you play with a brain and a little skill… not every match for sure but enough to say survivor is a joke right now …
End game saves are pretty easy against most killers if the whole team is alive and the hook isn't on the opposite side of the map from the gate. Can't say I see many survivor teams losing in end game against a camping killer.
Please do share your stats if they're that high.
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This has been floated many times, and MMR is supposedly being reworked, but this much data will be hard to measure. Chases, for example, are cut short even when they're still ongoing by distance being created or LoS being broken. Judging "useful" chases is hard. I bring Lucky Break and Iron Will. I get hit, I turn a corner, and I disappear, then I watch the killer look for me around a tile and in lockers. I'm still wasting their time, but the game isn't registering it. I don't know how the game would fully and accurately judge a protection hit either. Was it a protection hit, or did the killer just run into someone else?
On the killer side, are you saying things like unique hooks should raise your MMR even if you 8 hook and get 0k? Wouldn't that just mean tunneling killers get to stay at lower MMR and have an easier time cheesing? If anything, I want those people sky rocketed upward. If they want to play sweaty, let them sweat at the top. If you're someone who gets 7 or 8 hooks before a kill, chances are you're doing fine otherwise, even if you lose some matches. If anything, a bigger sense of accomplishment in-game is needed for these situations.
Though I agree kills/escapes need to not be the only factors, I think it's also very hard to judge anything else. That's why the system is as it currently is. I do think hours/devotion should be accounted for. A 1k player shouldn't land a 10k opponent.
A player can hide most of the match, get hatch, bring a key
You already don't gain MMR from hatch escapes. A player who gets hatch consistently will have a pretty stagnate MMR growth rate.
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@Mrpugalug916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033811#Comment_4033811
You already get that. You can abandon after being plugged twice and you get multiple perks to pick yourself up. Just get better. If 4 people are being plugged, its your teams fault
I said slugging for the 4k, which happens when two people are left, not four. There's no counter to it, and no abandon option if the other person is standing.
The abandon option isn't a solution anyway, it's the lack of a solution.
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@Mrpugalug916 said:
Okay killers should get deadlock basekit then. Im sick and tired of survivors getting powerful effects basekit. You don't need them. You already get borrowed time basekit which works at egc and anticamp. I remember when this game took skill and coordination to escape, now the game just plays itself for survivor
So if survivor plays itself, then everyone should have ERs way beyond the target 40% then, right? Can you show me all these drastically high ERs that are well past the range? Or maybe it's that survivors have just enough to maintain a (losing) average against increasingly strong and complex killers. Because even high MMR players average below 50% in the official number.
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@Semper_Fi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081886#Comment_4081886
Honestly, I think basekit Kindred without the killer aura might be healthier than full Bond basekit. Thats an awesome idea @cogsturning
When someone is hooked, survivors seeing each other’s auras would help solo queue answer the basic question: “Is someone going for the save, or do I need to?”
That would help with coordination during hook states without giving survivors constant live teammate tracking all match.
And like you said earlier, I would leave the killer aura out of it as well. Full Kindred basekit might be too much, but teammate-only Kindred during hook states seems like a reasonable solo queue information buff.
That said, even now the HUD gives survivors a lot more information than it used to, and people still misplay basic situations. The anti-camp meter can be visible and some players still do not understand what to do.
So better information helps, but it does not magically fix game sense. A lot of the solo queue problem is not just lack of info. It is that many players do not understand game flow, pressure, hook timing, trading, or when to commit to gens versus saves.
Yeah that last part is an issue. It's hard to teach gamesense, particularly in a game that teaches you very little itself. As it is now, there's a certain logic to who will go for unhooks based on what's happening on the HUD. The issue I see the most is if the most logical person to go is on the opposite side of a large map. That's where the info would be useful, as killers will often return to the hook when they see the person is close to second so they can secure that transition. You also have people who have no activity on the HUD and don't show as being in chase, so you assume they're going—and then they don't.
No amount of gamesense can save you from inexplicable behavior from teammates, or from bad matchmaking.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081898#Comment_4081898
I'm not saying killers can't deal with it, i'm saying that the way killers deal with it survivors don't like, which is slugging and then results in 2-3 or even all 4 survivors getting slugged and someone complaining about slugging. So can you tell me then what you would suggest doing that would:
- Still allow killers to punish survivors when they go for the save and they spot them
- Does not allow for slugging multiple survivors
- Is not abusable by SWFs
- Still allows survivors to actually try and go for saves
Again though, i'm not saying this is necessarily the correct solution, and its simply one i thought of in a few minutes. But it would be the type of thing that they should test on various PTBs. I don't really understand why the community has this massive aversion to just trying things out on PTB, and if they don't work, no problem, just don't release them. We have plenty of examples of the devs doing this at various points in the past through things like, removing bloodlust, the anti-tunnel system, basekit unbreakable, etc. Why is there some massive issue if we test something on PTB and then it doesn't work out?
And if you want to talk "dev resources" these systems i'd propose are already in the game, we already have things that remote hook, so it shouldn't take too many resources to wire the system up as a simple test, sure it might be jank, or animations might be weird or w/e, but the point is to test how it feels, and then go from there.
Your solution is a buff to killers who either 1) are bad and/or can't deal with rescue attempts or 2) weren't egeriously slugging anyway but will still get free stuff. The issue is killers who are loading in intending to slug everyone and circumvent the entire core structure of the game (because perks or something). As it is, it's already getting easier and easier, with more and more uncounterable mini moris showing up, on new killers that are stronger and stronger. I once again don't understand why killers should be rewarded for bad behavior instead of nerfing the tools they're using, like Infectious Fright. Somehow I don't think you'd be calling for global survivor buffs if a subset of survivor players were abusing something.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081784#Comment_4081784
I have never said that slugging, or for that matter tunneling or camping or anything like that is good for the game.
Slugging is tough, because survivors have many ways to save a teammate while they are being picked up and so on. So i don't think slugging by itself is necessarily a problem.
The problem is more that hooking survivors is just bad for you as a killer. You unlock tons of perks and power for them, and it takes SO long to pick up a survivor, walk to a hook, put them on a hook, where all your pressure you are building up is gone.
Tunneling and camping, i have a solution for from a game design perspective, slugging is tough without negating a ton of things. You need to allow some amount of time for slugging to deal with like 1-2 survivors hovering around for the save. While at the same time, making it not abusable to slug multiple survivors. And at the same time, you don't want to take away all the killer's pressure. In a lot of ways, if there ARE survivors hanging around for the save, and i happen to down all 2 of them, i shouldn't be punished for that as a killer. So it really is a tough call on what exactly the correct solution is. But the solution is definitely not to just slap on basekit unbreakable and call it a day.
I would have to test it out against actual good survivor teams, but perhaps some compromise in the middle where like we do to picking up, walking to a hook, and hooking survivors what we did to pallet breaks, vaulting, survivor speed boost etc. and just buff it up a bit, while adding in a way to "send" a survivor to a hook if they have been slugged a while (to punish survivor teams swarming) while adding a function of unlimited basekit unbreakable, so for example something like this:
- Decrease the time it takes to pickup a survivor from 3 seconds to 2.34 seconds (same as a pallet break)
- This time hasn't change since nearly the game's release, and was tied to the speed it took to break pallets for a while, then they made it faster to break pallets, then they made it faster again. It's probably time to decrease this timer again.
- Make the timing on blinding a little more lenient again
- With the increased pickup speed if the killer gets blinded by the survivor during the animation, the timing on blind should be made a bit nicer for survivors so they are still able to do it even if they don't have the perfect position.
- Increase killer movement speed while holding a survivor from 3.68 m/s to 4.0 m/s and then nerf agitation (so like they do with addons, make agitation partially basekit)
- This puts them at the exact same speed as a survivor, so they still won't be able to chase a survivor while holding one, but it would increase their speed a bit
- Decrease the amount of time it takes a survivor to wiggle off by 1.3 seconds
- Right now it takes a survivor about 16 seconds to wiggle off, during which a killer could move 58.88 meters, if they make it take 1.3 seconds less and the killer moves faster, it still keeps the same distance of 58.88 meters so killers can't reach any further than they can now, they can just move to that point a little bit faster.
- Decrease the hooking animation from 1.5 seconds to 1 second
- New basekit ability: When a survivor has been slugged for 30 seconds, gain the ability to "send" a survivor to a hook without picking them up. This sending logic just "sends" them to the nearest hook (or maybe furthest? depends on what feels right) without having to pick them up. This ability deactivates if a survivor is downed (basically so they can't slug one survivor, go down another, then send the first one and go hook the second)
- This makes it so if survivors are swarming around for the save, the killer can chase them off, hit them, etc, but if they keep trying to go for the save and hover around, the killer can gain the ability to hook the downed survivor without exposing themselves.
- New basekit ability: Unbreakable (with no limits) that activates when another survivor is downed. The survivor is able to pick themselves up after 10 seconds of the ability activating.
- This way, you cant' down multiple survivors without some kind of penalty in place. You'll basically have enough time to decide which survivor you want to hook, but you won't have time to do both.
I think this could be a smaller middle ground where, killers feel like they are able to pick up survivors without losing all the pressure they have built up as much from picking up faster and more movement speed, encouraging them to hook more often. When survivors come for the save, they totally can still save, but if they start swarming for like a "bully squad" type situation, the killer gets the ability to just hook that survivor without penalty, and then immediately start chasing another survivor. While at the same time, you can't go and slug entire teams.
This is also just in a vacuum, i probably wouldn't do the speedup changes if the changes i would make for tunneling and camping that i frequently talk about became a thing, but if we are tackling JUST slugging specifically.
I don't actually know if this is the right answer, or if it is too much, or too little, but it would probably be my starting point of trying to look at slugging in a way that doesn't punish killers for trying to prevent saves, while also dealing with the more egregious examples of slugging. Doing some testing on this, and then tweaking numbers so they make sense.
Why do killers deserve free remote hooking when they can't deal with a situation? Just because you downed someone doesn't mean you're entitled to a hook.
- Decrease the time it takes to pickup a survivor from 3 seconds to 2.34 seconds (same as a pallet break)
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Bond can be both good and bad depending on the intentions of the user. I'd rather have Kindred (minus killer aura read). Knowing where everyone is when someone is on the hook is more valuable than knowing who is right nearby.
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On Henry and Plague I'm currently running two, but on most killers I run none. I'm more likely to run aura, chase, or undetectable.
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It's always funny how people defend this for one seemingly harmless reason or another. Meanwhile you have winstreakers like momo pitching their reshade settings on their streams. Yeah, definitely no advantage. I wouldn't mind it so much if everyone had access to it, but it's yet another thing that console players lack.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080724#Comment_4080724
Just sharing my opinion.
I think people are majorly overreacting either way, though, at worst this is a disappointing teaser lol
People got jobs in the morning. They should have said it would be like this.
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Where's the abandon button on this stream?
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Would also be cool if the pfps were once again accessible through the normal means and not through a separate link.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
Slugging avoids activating some strong perks (Fast Track, Self-Preservation, DS, Dead Hard) but the bigger benefit for Killer is that it avoids the time sink of picking up, carrying and hooking a Survivor, and then re-engaging with the trial. the whole thing can take a really long time which is a death sentence in this era of hyper-efficient generator repairs. Plus, if you're unlucky with hook spawns, it can put you on the wrong side of the map or not work at all if Survivors bodyblock or sabo the right hook. Furthermore, the popularity of Resurgence means that an unhooked Survivor can basically be full health a second after unhook, so the time commitment is often asymmetrical in the Survivors' favour, especially since several Killer perks that activate on hooking a Survivor have either been nerfed or have never been that good. Meanwhile the strongest passive slowdown perk, Hex: Ruin, got buffed a while back and synergises with slugging very well. And of course slugging is much easier and more effective on strong, high-mobility Killers like Blight and Ghoul than on weaker low-mobility Killers like Trapper and Ghostface.
So, at the same time that I see people complaining about the games speed, they're also defending a tactic that lets them win less than 5 minutes into a match. So a 10-15 minute match of normal gameplay is "too fast" but a four minute slugging match is perfect.
I guess speed is only a problem if you're losing.
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Was playing killer tonight. Decided to try a few survivor matches. Fourth one was a 4man slug at 5 gens about 3 minutes into the match. Went back to killer immediately. If that's how they want to act, I'll pass. At least as killer I don't have to deal with anyone's power tripping whims.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080415#Comment_4080415
In high mmr survivors often use these anti-tunnel perks offensively to force the killer into lose-lose situations. Its a very delicate balance and there's a reason that slugging is back on the table right now.
There's a really big difference between slugging someone who's in your face with obvious DS, and bringing a slug build and loading in to a match intending to 4man slug.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080251#Comment_4080251
This is not really true the way you think it is. Yes nurse blight spirit ghoul etc don't care. But we are talking about MOST of the killer cast not the top ones which are a different issue. So keep that in mind as you read this.
All it takes is 2-3 pre-dropped god pallets, and 3 gens are going to get done, let's imagine say, a legion, who effectively has no power after the first hit.
Breaking a pallet takes 2.34 seconds. A pallet covers about 5 meters from 1 side to the other (a little under a lunge which is about 6 meters). A killer breaking a pallet, if the survivor shift+w away, the survivor will gain 9.36 meters of distance for a total of 14.36 meters of distance. In order to hit that survivor, the killer needs to lunge at them, a lunge makes the killer move at 6.9 m/s for 0.9 seconds. the last 0.3 seconds of which they can hit, and then for a few frames after they are able to land a hit. The distance of a swing for killer is about 1 meter. Which means that the killer needs to be 1 meter away for the final hit. Because survivors move at 4 m/s, when factoring the lunge and the distance, this means that to hit a running survivor with the very tip of your lunge, you need to be 3.61 meters away from the survivor. (During that lunge the killer moves 6.21 meters and their hit extends out for 1 meter for a total of 7.21 meters, but during the 0.9 seconds the killer is lunging, the survivor is able to move 3.6 meters. Thus, 7.21 - 3.6 = 3.61 meters).
So in summary:
- Dropping a pallet and the killer breaking it puts the killer at 14.36 meters away from the survivor
- They need to close the gap to 3.61 meters of distance in order to hit the survivor at the tip of their lunge.
- This means the killer needs to close the gap by 14.36 - 3.61 = 10.75 meters.
How long does it take the killer to catch up to the survivor at 10.75 meters? Well the killer moves at 4.6 and the survivor at 4. So every second, the killer gains 0.6 meters of distance. So simply 10.75/0.6 = 17.916 seconds. To account for lag, and human reaction and to make math a little easiy, i think we can safely round this up to 18 seconds. And that is in the best case scenario.
So, in our scenario, lets say the survivor just shift+ws to a pallet and predrops it. No mindgaming, no looping, no nothing, just pure shift+w and predrop. Every predrop extends the chase by 18 seconds.
This doesn't factor in the time it took to start that chase. Land the first hit, find the survivor, any of those things. But, lets say the survivor predrops 3 pallets (keep in mind these days maps have around 20 pallets at this point), then they just shift+w to a corner of the map. This means, no looping, no mindgaming, no nothing, just pure, predrop a pallet and shift+w away as the killer breaks it.
In that scenario it will take the killer 3*18 = 54 seconds to down the survivor. Then they have to, wipe their blade, pick up the survivor, sit through the pickup animation, find a hook, walk to the hook, put the survivor on the hook, wait for the hooking animation, THEN they can start the next chase.
How long does that all take you think?
54 seconds + 2.7 seconds + 3 seconds + 8 seconds + 1.5 seconds = 69.2 seconds.
Again this factors in nothing else. This is assuming the killer starts their chase at 14ish meters away from the survivor, the survivor doesn't try to mindgame, they don't try to do anything, they just predrop a few pallets. And its a legion. So the survivor is assumed injured, but the killer has no power to speak of to deal with this in any meaningful way.
So by the time you do that, the other 3 survivors are 20 seconds away from finishing 3 gens? Now how many resources did that survivor "waste" oh 3 pallets? Well how many are left? 20? Oh so they still have 85% of the map to work with.
All of this to reason is WHY killers are relying more on tactics rather than pure "mechanical skill" to win games. And those "tactics" are the very things you don't like. Tunneling at the right time, slugging at the right time, hit and run tactics, playing a more macro game instead of a micro one etc. And these are the types of things that survivors complain about the most, even more so than blight or ghoul. Look at how many people complain about say, the knight, or skull merchant before they intentionally made her bad, or sadako who goes for condemn instead of hooks. I personally like to play a more macro style, and most matches i get tons of anger and vitriol thrown at me more so than if i play nurse and just end chases in 10 seconds.
So, this isn't really a complaint as it were about the situation, more of just an analysis. The problem here is that this type of thing LEADS to killers adapting and using strategies that survivors find unfun. The only fix to which is really fundamentally changing the core game to make chases and hooks more important than kills while making tunneling/slugging/camping etc not only not good, but just not possible to do. But this is too much of a task for the devs i think, which is why nothing will change.
Ah yes, the three god pallets that you can easily chain on every map. We all know those. They definitely exist. You're ignoring reality in favor of a math equation that assumes everyone moves in a straight, mechanical line, and the killer somehow has nothing to help them, while also breaking every (somehow unavoidable) pallet. Most pallets aren't god pallets—most pallets are bad. If someone predrops it and keeps going you just walk around it.You're also ignoring the fact that most killers have some way to hinder your journey on this straight line of perfectly spaced and stellar pallets. Killers have either mobility/catchup/dash (Ghoul, Nurse, Chucky, Spirit), a ranged attack (Deathslinger, Huntress, Plague, Unknown), an antiloop ability (Clown, Doctor, Dredge, Pinhead), or a pallet chewing ability (Oni, Bubba, Micheal, Nemesis), if not a combo of those things (Henry, Billy, Oni, Blight, Singularity, Vecna, Dracula). Plus there's instadowns on many of them. Oh yeah, and popular anti-pallet addons (Legion, Wraith, Wesker). That's not even bringing up perks. And once those pallets are gone, they're gone. You're also ignoring the reality of the maps themselves, like Ormond and Yamaoka, with areas of a bunch of useless rocks and nothing else at all. 70s for a down and all you broke was 3 pallets? If that happens you're bad, terribly outclassed, or you screwed up. You can pretend all this isn't the case, but I know very well that you know what reality looks like in this game.
The problem here is that this type of thing LEADS to killers adapting and using strategies that survivors find unfun.
The pallets were likely put in to help with tunneling, so survivors have resources to slow down the targeted attack. Half the perks killers are complaining about—like Babysitter, DS, and OtR—are anti tunnel perks that have zero effect on you if you aren't looking to double hook. If perks and pallets simply existing has lead to slugging, then slugging needs to be adjusted, not perks and pallets. You shouldn't be able to say you just don't like the proper gameplay and you won't participate in it until you get your way. That shouldn't even be possible.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080368#Comment_4080368
A good survivor can waste a killer's time even in a "bad" pallet. You just need to be patient, which is a very difficult thing for survivors to have in this game.
This is the opposite of predropping and holding W.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
Slugging is the best strategy in the game right now. Killers will continue to slug until the devs stop punishing killers for hooking and spreading hooks giving survivors free second chances perks.
This is like giving a child a toy because they threw a temper tantrum. That's rewarding bad behavior. If slugging is problematic then it needs to be nerfed. "Nerf survivors" shouldn't be the expected response to killers acting out.
It's also really ironic that you're complaining about perks while the killers participating in this are hard crutching on very specific perk builds. If anything needs changing, it's those perks.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080299#Comment_4080299
Yeah I'd rather the game get meaningful polish.
Operation health though was the time to do it, it's just really sad they messed it up so badly.I often wonder why they do the things they do. I assume they're more interested in attracting a constant stream of new players with ever-expandimg content over fixing was already here, they just don't seem to care about retaining them. Because I can't imagine most people who roll up to this buggy, confusing, overstuffed game filled with sweaty and toxic players end up staying, especially once they depart the comforting embrace of the soft cap. My guess is that they spend a decent chunk of impulse cash before they run off and that's more valuable than pleasing the long timers who continue to trudge on regardless.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080251#Comment_4080251
I will tell you, this is not a bad strategy. Actually, this is one of the best strategy survivors can do. The map has way more pallets than necessary to loop the killer and still have time to finish all the gens. I say it by my own experience.
Good strategy for who, someone who just wants to hold W away from chase? And what about your teammates that don't know you ripped through all the resources and they can now be herded into a surprise dead zone? The maps have pallets, yeah, but many are garbage edgemap pallets that will buy you seconds before going down, or useless things between a small rock and tree.
But yeah, please do this in all my killer matches. Predrop a pallet I can just walk around and return to break at my leisure.
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@rutterspax said:
We need to look at why slugging is currently predominant.
Let's see uhm.. right. Dead Hard, Resurgence, Shoulder the Burden, Decisive Strike, Deliverance, Off the Record, hook timer increased from 60 secs to 70 seconds, basekit Endurance and Haste after unhook which they also increased the timer and strength (Endurance used to be 10 secs now 15 secs and Haste is increased from 7% to 10%), anti-camp, flashbangs, flashlight saves, time to take to pick up and move to a hook, Saboteur/toolbox, injured survivor running to upright pallet to get downed there for a pallet save, bodyblocking hook, Breakdown, We'll Make It, Babysitter, etc.
I wonder why killers slug.
So you're saying a big chunk of the killer playerbase is so bad they can't handle interacting with perks, basekit, and general intended gameplay?
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I don't know how content-driven other people are but I couldn't care less about new chapters. This game has enough characters and perks already. I don't even pay attention to the Quests, and tomes I just set to something and let them happen naturally. The only thing I guess I want is Rifts/cosmetics, but that's probably not too demanding.
I play the game because I want to play the game, not because there's a bunch of new crap all the time. And I'd much rather them focus on improving the game them pumping out said crap, all of which is buggy anyway.