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@Pumpkinbros said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3227553#Comment_3227553
base kit unbreakable a large nerf to tunneling and slugging will be released in the next upcoming update
Tunneling already got nerfed, with base kit BT, if it's not enough, there are perks you can bring to prevent that even further, but the base protection was added so they can't ultimately win with 0 effort
Basekit Unbreakeble is, in my opinion, actually quite the waste of resources. I do not see how that will help with tunneling or camping, in any significant way. I wish they actually focused on these problems instead of adding basekit Unbreakeable.
The tunneling nerf we did get was definitely good, but it just wasn't enough in my opinion. And it seems like many people think that way, looking at the killer queue times I am currently having.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3229536#Comment_3229536
If people hate an aspect of a game then it might be a good time for them to go do something else.
Holy crap. Yeah that's what some people already have been doing. That's also why killer queue times have increased so much.
Again, it's almost kind of hard for me to tell if someone like you is trolling me or not. Survivor players have stopped playing this game. The solution here isn't to get rid of these people, the solution is to make the game more fun so there are actually more people playing this game. Unless you are fine with these annoying killer queue times. I for one am not.
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I see a fair amount of ggs, even when I win as killer. One key thing to remember is that when you win as killer, 3 of the survivors have already been dead for a bit before the match ends. So it's very likely to not get any gg from them because they already left the match.
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@Draxlore said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3223210#Comment_3223210
You asked who wants to learn to play against strategies and tactics of your opposition? Everyone should want that. That's how you win.
You aren't going to win a single match complaining on the forum.
That's such a silly thing to ask....you have to learn to play the game in order to be good at it. You want to win by game design changes and not by actually being good at the game. Such an entitled attitude.
Also, playing against a killer tunneling is quite fun. I enjoy it.
Your claim that it is unfun is not a fact....that is your opinion and does not speak for everyone.
Dude are you actually serious? Are you going to just blatantly ignore all the people that clearly hate going against tunneling? It is so obvious that most people hate going against a tunneling and camping killer. There are already enough killer players that go out of their way to not tunnel and camp, because they know that they are cheap and unfun tactics. If you enjoy tunneling, then great for you. But clearly most survivor players don't.
People do not want to learn to play against such strategies because they are insanely unfun to go against. How does that not reach your brain? Camping and tunneling are exactly the reason I have to wait in queue way too long as killer at most times. Why would I or anyone try to "improve" against tactics that suck any kind of fun out of the game? I know people like you try to make it look like survivors are just bad and don't want to adapt and learn how to play better, but the actual truth is that survivor players just do not want to play against something that sucks all the fun out of the game.
And nothing will change that. And until BHVR wakes up and adds some more, proper nerfs to tunneling, and especially camping, killers will continue to enjoy much longer queue times than survivors. And as a killer main, I also have to say I am getting sick and tired of these queue times.
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Still insane to me that this new midchapter update featured no balance changes what so ever, despite camping and tunneling being such a problem, and perks like Eruption existing.
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222758#Comment_3222758
If a survivor plays agressively after being unhooked, they forfeit their right not to be chased.
The game doesn't need to recognize it.
With a baseline 5 seconds DS, I think the game would be much better right now.
Then, give all survivors an increasing repair bonus speed if the killer camps for a log time. Problem solved.
I really like these changes, but especially with basekit Ds, I do think that some maps that are still pretty survivor sided would need to be looked at as well. Then the game would be in a really good state.
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Definitely camping and tunneling. Way too effective for the little skill that is required. Generally just an easy way out. I get that some maps are still problematic, but after all the buffs killers received, it's just too much at the moment.
Nurse, and arguably blight with his techs.
Medkits, and arguably certain toolboxes.
Eruption and Pentimento are also too much. Especially eruption.
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@Draxlore said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222409#Comment_3222409
I don't see complaints from the vast majority of players. Just the survivors that either can't or refuse to work on increasing their skill level to counter the killers play.
When you say it's not designed for people like me...are you saying it's not design for people who play both killer and survivor, and don't need to complain about strategies or tactics employed because I can counter at any time with my own tactics and strategies?
I certainly do. Even on these forums you see constant complaints. But on platforms like reddit, from what I have seen, it's even worse.
I love how you try to make it about people's skill level. The big problem with camping and tunneling is that it's beyond unfun to go against. Who wants to "learn" how to play against something like camping and tunneling? People just leave the match, understandably, and perhaps just switch to another game. Some people clearly have stopped playing the game considering the noticeable increase in killer queue times.
I am more of a killer main but still think camping and tunneling are beyond cheap and bad for the game. And as far as I can tell, many people that play both sides think that.
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No those perks are fine as long as they aren't that powerful. And I see no problem with perks like Corrupt in particular, they are more then balanced.
Gen regression and slowdown perks are a good thing. It would be beyond foolish to nerf slowdown perks, that allow killers to play in a more fun way, instead of nerfing camping and tunneling, the tactics that really need to be nerfed.
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@Draxlore said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222029#Comment_3222029
There is no tunneling solution, because tunneling is not a problem.
It is. When the clear, vast majority of the community complains about tactics like camping and tunneling, because they are beyond unfun to go against, then those tactics are clearly a problem. Games are meant to be fun, for as many people as possible.
This game isn't only designed for people like you lmao.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3220785#Comment_3220785
I am. I'm telling you there's absolutely nothing wrong with tunneling. It's an effective way to win and killers have no reason to play less effective just because some people can't stand losing in a pvp game.
This is such a false take on why people hate tunneling. Of course one can argue whether tunneling is overpowered or not. But the real discussion it about how unfun tunneling is to go against, and how unhealthy it is for the game. And the same goes for camping.
People play games to have fun, and being tunneled and especially camped is the complete opposite of fun. Which is obviously not good for a video game.
In the game's current state, tunneling and camping can't be nerfed into the ground, but BHVR can definitely nerf those tactics at least a bit to not make them as effective in so many situations. Especially camping, which was hilariously buffed in 6.1.0 and not nerfed since then.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Absolutely 100% yes. 10% regression+25 seconds Incapacitated for every gen that was kicked is absurd. It takes all the strategy out of the game for a killer without any way for solos to play around it. I despise this perk.
Realistically, BHVR needs to start tuning regressions as if they're going to be stacked rather than tuning them on their own. Eruption is run with Pain Res, Overcharge, etc, 99% of the time. Nobody after X MMR is just running 1 slowdown. The numbers should reflect that on these perks. A good killer doesn't need all of the slowdown in the world.
If BHVR tunes slowdown perks indivdually based on their performance in synergy with other slowdown perks, won't we just end up with more killers using multiple slowdown perks? Because those that only run one, or maybe two that do not synergize that well, will not want to do so anymore if the slowdown perks are not good when used alone. I sometimes use only one slowdown perk in my builds, but if that wouldn't be very helpful anymore, I would use multiple as well. Which I feel would be a shame.
When it comes to Eruption, I agree that perk needs a nerf. I personally also think that Pentimento should have it's values reduced slightly. But a lot of slowdown perks in my opinion are fine, I would rather have BHVR look at how they can decrease the synergies between slowdown perks, like adding diminishing returns when effects like regression effects stack, as in the combo of Call of Brine and Overcharge for example. I think Call of Brine is a pretty balanced slowdown perk on it's own, but I can see it being a bit much when stacked with Overcharge, and especially when also stacked with Eruption.
I also wouldn't mind caps to stacking effects, like for action speed debuffs. 25% or 30% would probably work, so multiple slowdown perks in combination, like Gift of Pain + Pentimento + Dying Light couldn't ever go above 25 or 30 %.
Oh and they should get rid of the Pain Resonance + Dead Man's Switch combo. It's still so ridiculous to me that they brought that combo back after getting rid of it just a month prior to that.
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@Norhc said:
Yet another awfully inaccurate tier list that nobody asked for. I understand why reddit bans those type of threads except for certain days.
What exactly makes this tier list so bad?
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@Veinslay said:
Because survivors are allowed to do whatever they want to give themselves the huge edge in the match, but if the killer uses any tactics like camping/tunneling/slugging to give themselves the upper hand they're being a toxic piece of #########. Losing 2 or 3 gens at the first chase is basically standard against coordinated survivors because of how ridiculously safe and pallet dense the maps are. I use Lethal Pursuer and plenty of times 1 to 2 gens will go even when getting directly to a survivor immediately and downing them in a reasonably fast time. Anyone that's playing killer and they have 1 or 2 hooks before a gen pops are playing against bad survivors. The gens fly faster than ever after the newest update, it's obnoxious
Maps are still a problem, but if it takes you 90 seconds do down a survivor without spreading damage at all, it is fairly likely you are being outplayed as well, or simply making a few misplays. Not to mention the game also has a fair amount of maps that are fairly balanced. I can assure you that if a killer has one or two hooks before a gen pops, it's not always because of bad survivors. That is just bullocks, made up by people that can't accept they aren't as good at killer as some other people.
Camping and tunneling are insanely unhealthy for the game. Pretty much everyone hates those tactics and for good reasons. This isn't about one side not allowed to do whatever it takes them to gain an advantage, this topic has always been about unfun and unhealthy gameplay that shouldn't be as effective.
Not to mention that there simply is no survivor equivalent of camping and tunneling at the moment, especially after the 6.1.0 update.
Is killer in a perfect spot now? Definitely not, and this is especially because of badly designed maps. No doubt. But killers already received a bunch of buffs that helped them out. Now it's the survivors turn to get some help against camping and tunneling. And from there on, the devs can continue to try and improve the game experience for both sides.
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This is just sad honestly. Name me one other game that has such cheap gameplay that takes so little skill be even nearly as effective as playing like this. The fact camping still hasn't been nerfed, especially after it being buffed in 6.1.0, is mind boggling to me. Camping is the exact opposite of healthy and good game design.
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@Katzengott said:
Stop with the basekit nonsense and just bring Kindred!
Every buff for Solos is another free buff for SWFs.
How would basekit kindred buff swf even nearly as much as solo survivors? Camping and tunneling need to be nerfed, and that would also buff swf, that's true. Doesn't change the fact that those tactics need to be nerfed, because of how cheap and unfun they are.
But when it comes to only buffing solo survivors, there are great ways to do so. Basekit kindred would buff swf a bit as well, but not nearly as much as solo survivors. However, I can understand why the devs wouldn't want to add aura reading abilities to survivors basekit. But the survivor icons BHVR talked about is another nice way to buff solo survivors, and only solo survivors, and some form of ping system, at least one to mark objectives, would also be fantastic.
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I am going to say this: You can't really blame people for using camping and tunneling as tactics, as they are simply put very effective. It's BHVR that needs to nerf these tactics, and soon hopefully. Tunneling was addressed at least somewhat in the 6.2.0 update, but DS 100% still needs to be buffed back to have a 5 second stun.
Camping definitely still needs to be addressed at base though at the moment. And I think there would be very simple solutions to doing so. Simply increasing the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and removing hook grabs, would go a long way if you ask me. Would it make camping impossible? No, not even close. Camping would arguably still be a usable tactic in some situations. But it would make camping more manageable for survivors, and fairer to go against. They would have a bit more of a fair chance to win against a camping killer, and that is exactly what the game needs at the moment.
I think those 3 changes would also help balance out queue times much better again.
Camping and tunneling surely should be nerfed further in the future as well, but that would probably also require other changes that would benefit killer a bit, at the very least some map balance improvements.
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@6659Leg said:
ahem
OP: I didn't like how the killer played the game they paid for and thus,I have a free ticket to complain and act entitled about it.
Lmao absolutely terrible. If you can not see the problem with camping and tunneling, then that's on you. Games are supposed to be fun. This is not about dictating how others should play the game, it's about making the game more fun.
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@Rudjohns said:
Not everything needs to be killer sided
What does this have to do with killer sided? Lmao what?
The maps listed above are clearly survivor sided, unless the killer camps and tunnels. Which is exactly the problem. Camping and tunneling should long have been nerfed, but with maps that are not as bad as some of the maps listed.
Camping and tunneling should have priority right now, for at least some more nerfs, but these maps are still very badly designed. And if such maps weren't as survivor sided, the devs could improve survivors in more ways as well. At some point I'd love to see solo survivors have access to a lot more information that swf survivors have, and I'd love to see camping and tunneling nerfed into the ground, but right now, all of that combined, isn't really possible yet because of bad maps like Eyrie of Crows.
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That is simply the current matchmaking system. If you are selfless and often sacrifice yourself for the rest of your team, your mmr will decrease, as it only increases when you actually escape.
It's simply a bad mmr system at the moment. And until that is fixed, you'll have to try and play a bit more selfish, escaping more often yourself. If that is even possible among your mmr, but one would assume that the killers you go against, in most cases, are also still relatively new, but I guess that is also not a given with this current matchmaking.
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@lav3 said:
Remember when people said For the People is OP because it's like old insta heal?
Remember when people said Built to Last is OP because survivors can recharge item several times and combined with toolbox = busted?
Those 2 and even Hyperfocus are rarely seen and they aren't even powerful as old Dead Hard, Desicive Strike or Circle of Healing.
Yes, Hyperfocus can be very powerful paired with Stake out and toolbox but using 2 perks and item slot for repair speed shouldn't be significantly weak.
If you really think some of generator repair boost perks are problematic, just frankly say "Nerf Resilience, Prove Thyself, Stake out, Overzealous, Built to Last, Fast Track, Hyperfocus because they affect generator speeds.".
When killers can stack slowdown perks, I have no idea how people have been saying Prove Thyself and Hyperfocus should be nerfed.
I would argue stacking slowdown perks are a problem as well.
People considered Hyperfocus to be op because videos with Stake Out and a toolbox showed that a gen can be repaired in 40-45 seconds. And that is not good for the game's balance.
I think it's only part of a bigger problem, which is the potential huge variance in gen times that can be achieved with perks and addons, and that goes for both sides. Certain slowdown perk synergies are just too much in my opinion, just like certain gen speed up perks and items.
Though when it comes to Prove Thyself, I have no idea how that perk is op. But with Hyperfocus, combined with Stake Out at least, I can definitely see that being too strong in the right hands.
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@Hawk81584 said:
it wasnt like this before 6.1 at least not to this degree. we all know where the problem is....they just dont want to admit it
What exactly is the problem though? Because one can't only balance this game around survivor teams where two players are complete newbies. And the buffs killers got, while noticeable, didn't suddenly make killers unbeateable or anything. Not even close. In fact, the buffs that killers got were great, and needed. Survivors just neede some counterbalancing as well.
Balance is surely a problem as well, at least when it comes to camping and tunneling. Those tactics need to be nerfed. Solo survivors could also use some information buffs finally. But balance isn't THE problem, matchmaking is a problem as well at the moment.
And solo queue was complained about before 6.1.0 as well.
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@Wezil said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211848#Comment_3211848
I think what players are seeing is the wide skill-range of players that MMR is placing together. You place a high MMR player with a newbie and the game is absolutely horrible for the entire team.
The skill-range for players needs to be narrowed back to what it originally was.
Yeah good point. I mean the entire mmr system is flawed because it only being based off of kills and escapes, but I 100% agree that the skill-range should be narrowed again. The max mmr cap was also decreased at some point I remember, that also needs to be reverted if you ask me.
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It is indeed now a fair and skillful perk. Yes, it's very strong when used right at a pallet, but that's about it. Let's not act like the odds of timing a perfect Dead Hard in the open against a killer that is ready for Dead Hard aren't extremely low. Because they are. Take away the potential it has at pallets, and maybe sometimes windows, and you've got a dead perk that is completely useless.
Dead Hard for distance was the big problem. Because you could use it to get to a window you couldn't get to otherwise, and because it allowed you to iron out mistakes you made at loops. This is no longer possible. The main thing about Dead Hard is that it's effectiveness is now guaranteed in much fewer situations than it used to be. You have to be pretty much at a pallet, in which case you often also could just drop the pallet to avoid a hit, for the perk to work guaranteed.
Old Dead Hard was much stronger in far more situations. You could use it at far more places, you just had to make sure you could reach the pallet with the Dead Hard speed boost. The one upside that new Dead Hard has is that it gains survivors more distance if timed correctly, but that's a fair compensation to the nerf it got.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/349440/so-exposed-counts-as-2-basic-attacks-right
While I do believe that Expose shouldn't go through endurance, I feel like if Myers was the ONE killer that is able to bury a survivor through endurance, that might be the novel idea that could finally get him away from the Tomb add-ons and give him a little niche in the current meta.
Could also be a balancing nightmare.
But this is kind of buffing Myers by buffing his tunneling potential. Which is the worst way you could ever buff a killer.
I'd rather have his basekit be buffed properly, so he can be strong, but in a fair and fun way.
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I am having fun at the moment, but I am desperately still waiting for more balance changes, especially nerfs to camping and tunneling. However, the game is not in a bad state right now in my opinion, and I even enjoy solo queue at the moment quite a bit. But it could be in a better state, that's for sure.
I guess the biggest problem for me are the few matches that can feel so outragousely stupid, and it's pretty much always because of camping and tunneling, that I almost forget about the good matches I had before that.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216634#Comment_3216634
STBFL doesn´t seem to be meta right now. Anyway, i still think the basekit BT should be a different health state than enduring. That way, it could proc once more with perks like the normal BT, DH or OtR. While not being completely broken like what we had on the 6.1.0 PTB.
Aren't we worried about possible bodyblocking situations though? Dead Hard can easily be waited out, but what about a BT and Off the Record combo? I am not saying I am against this though, just curious. Can't really say if that would be a problem myself. Right now I do not mind the BT bodyblocking, because it does discourage the killer from going back to a unhooked survivor a bit. But with two extra health states, that could maybe become a problem in certain situations.
In general I would love if basekit BT had a seperate, unique Endurance effect though. Because right now, the only anti-tunneling perk that can stack with basekit BT is DS, and that perk is sadly not that great at the moment.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216737#Comment_3216737
Reasons why survivors DC or give up early
1) they want to bully the killer, and found out they can’t bully the current killer
2) they have a rift challenge, and found out they can’t do this rift challenge with the current killer
3) they have a rift challenge, and they already did as much as they could for the rift challenge in the current game
4) they don’t like the current killer, and they want a killer they like better
5) the 1st chase with the killer was very short, and the survivor wants to ragequit out of frustration
6) the survivor thinks they are better than the other survivors, and wants better teammates
7) some else already DCed, or gave up early, and the survivor thinks the game is hopeless
8) the game is being held hostage
You forgot two of the most important reasons:
- Survivor starts getting campedand tunneled early on, which is the least fun you could ever have in a video game
- Survivors have to go against something broken like a Starstruck Nurse with the most powerful addons and perks
Some survivors dc for the most ridiculous reasons, and it's sad. But there are also understandable reasons why survivors would give up early.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216531#Comment_3216531
6.1.0 base chase changes are to blame for the camping and tunneling situation getting worse, who in the right hecking mind would shorten the dash distance between attacks, they in turn nerfed anyone who wasnt running exhaustion accidentally, the gen changes made sense, chases didn't need help.
The chase buffs were fine, except for the Bloodlust buff. If anything, they encourage killers to go for chases more, and not camp, I honestly have no idea how those changes were the reason killers would camp and tunnel more. It would be really dumb if the devs ever reverted those changes.
The problem with 6.1.0 was that there were no proper nerfs to camping and tunneling to accompany those killer buffs. And in fact, gen times being increased is the bigger problem there, because that's what actually buffed camping indirectly. However, the gen time increase was definitely a good thing, just not without further measures to reduce the effectiveness of camping and tunneling.
Basekit BT luckily did get a buff, which is great. But camping definitely still needs some fair nerfs, my suggestion would be to increase the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and remove hook grabs.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216654#Comment_3216654
I read your comment, I still disagree. Just because someone times a dead hard good doesn't mean they're scripting. There's no concrete proof. That Otz video isnt proof either.
You are right that it's no proof, but it is extremely likely that they are cheating. There is no possible reaction to a perfectly timed Dead Hard, so that happening 3 times in a match is insanely unlikely.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211757#Comment_3211757
Hes not the strongest but that doesn't matter, what matters is that you enjoy playing him. I love playing Doc but stopped because I got too focused on winning.
I started playing him again and remembered why I loved him
Yeah that's very true. With lower tier killers you just have to accept that some matches are almost unwinnable. I do think Clown does have the potential to win even pretty bad match ups, but the odds of that are just extremely low.
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@GoshJosh said:
Killers got so much with the 6.1 changes. I'm glad survivors got to keep their one anti-stealth killer perk after all! Hope it stays for years to come.
I'd rather have survivors receive some proper nerfs to camping, and maybe even tunneling as well, instead of some counter to stealth killers, to be honest. This just unnecessarily hurts stealth killers, and nothing else really, if I understand the problem right.
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@danielmaster87 said:
They're not nooby tactics. Experienced players have come to realize those tactics are the best. Until the game gets balanced differently, to where we can win without using those tactics, we're gonna keep doing them.
Killers just received a bunch of buffs in the last midchapter update. Yes, there are still situations where you don't really have any chance to win as killer, but those have become rarer. And now it's time for camping and tunneling to receive adequate nerfs. Not nerfs that would completely destroy those strategies, the game is surely not there yet, but nerfs to make them a bit more manageable and fair for survivors to deal with.
Right now, they are just too effective, for the relatively little skill and effort they require.
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@Crowman said:
Tunneling and Camping aren't problems that need to be solved nor are they nooby. They can feel cheap on the survivor side, but it's a 1v4. The killer has a better chance at winning by forcing another survivor out of the game early. Camping and Tunneling can help achieve that.
If you aren't enjoying tunneling and camping, then just don't. If you are getting matched above your skill level, those loses will help readjust you back to the skill level you should be at.
They are problems. They are literally the most complained about aspects for survivor players, and are insanely unhealthy for the game, as they are no fun to verse at all. Things like that should not exist in an online game.
And some one on the internet telling everyone they aren't a problem won't change the fact that they are indeed a problem, or so many people wouldn't be complaining about camping and tunneling. It's also only in the devs best interest to address these issues, and I hope soon. Should killers get some compensation buffs? Maybe in the future yes, when camping and tunneling get continuously nerfed. But those would then be buffs that encourage healthy gameplay. Right now however, it's pretty clear that survivors are in need of some improvements, and the most obvious changes here are nerfs to camping and tunneling.
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@danielmaster87 said:
It's true. It's just not as skillful as chasing. It's also strategy, but most people don't seem to like killers using strategy of any kind.
Strategy? Standing in front of a hook and hard focusing one survivor I guess can be seen as a strategy, but by the love of god, let us not act like this is a strategy that takes even just a bit of brain power. It's literally the most simple strategy anyone could think off. People generally like strategy when it's strategy that actually take some brain power, trying to be ahead of your opponents. Not stand in front of hook until survivor dies.
Also, the biggest reason most people do not like camping and tunneling is because they are insanely unfun to go against. And that is definitely a problem in DBD, especially now after killers received their buffs in 6.1.0. These strategies are incredibly unhealthy for the game.
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@almofan1001 said:
Why do survivors insist on saying that camping and tunneling is "0 skill" "braindead" "bot"?
As far as I can see, it's infinitely times more skillful than holding M1 on a generator and talking to your Twitch chat in background while checking your monitor every 10-15 seconds for a skill check. You don't even need to watch out for killer most of the time as terror radius gives you an indication when you actually need to start paying attention. Hitting good skill checks can be mastered after 10 minutes of the gameplay time. That's all the attention span and skill it takes to do your objective while the reward is immense.
At least when you tunnel you need to end the chase fast. You take a big risk and if you fail, you get punished heavily by basically losing the game on the spot. A sole survivor literally gets a chance to win a game for their team on their own. A successful tunnel is much more skilful activity than holding a button on a generator.
When you camp, you need to constantly look for other survivors, don't hit the wrong person, time your M1 to grab, avoid body blocks, and make sure to watch all angles so you don't miss anyone coming for rescue. It's at least 5x more actions for a killer to do (successfully) in order to gain benefit from it.
So please, survivors, when you complain about no-skill gameplay, have a bit of self-reflection. Your objective (generators) is literally the lowest risk, lowest skill and highest reward in the game to exist on both sides.
Not a great comparison honestly. Doing gens doesn't take skill, but you can't just do gens and then call it a day. Survivors have to survive in chases, long and often enough, to get gens done. A killer, once he gets a down, just stands in front of the hook until the survivor is dead. And yes, I get that killers do also have to chase when camping and tunneling, they have to get at least one down to then camp that survivor, but it still cuts away so much required skill from the killer, and is simply an easy way out for killer players.
It is true that these tactics aren't completely skillless. Esepcially tunneling. But camping in particular does not take much skill at all. You are just standing in front of the hook, and that is kind of it. Watching out for survivors? In which universe does that take skill? The only bit of skill that comes into play is when survivors try to unhook with good bodyblocks. But even then, there isn't much skill involved on the killer's side. You just try to go for a hook grab, and if that fails, you go for the down on the survivor you injured. It can get harder when all 4 survivors are rescuing, but at that point you still have a lot of pressure, because no one is working on gens.
Camping really takes very little skill, it is as simple as that. The bigger problem however is still that those strategies are insanely unfun to go against, and need to be addressed. It's fine for survivors to have their biggest frustrations addressed as well, killers aren't the only one that should get that treatement.
Tunneling admittedily takes more skill, but trying to hard tunnel just simply doesn't take nearly as much skill as playing killer normally. Killers got a bunch of buffs to make their normal gameplay style more viable, it's now time for camping and tunneling to become a little less viable. Not butchered, the game isn't there yet for that, just nerfed a bit so it is more manageable for survivors.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212959#Comment_3212959
Because they are immature. They queued up to play a match, and because it did not go how they wanted it, they threw the game and ruined it from being a normal game experience for everyone else.
Or IRL situation cropped up/cheater/game-breaking bug like being permanently stuck inside the hill. IRL situations will usually mean you’re away for longer than the timer anyways. Anti-cheat is being improved on. Gamebreaking bugs can now be killswitched for thankfully (eg disabling the map entirely).
While hook suicides are indeed a problem, being camped to death, or playing against some really broken killer, is not just simply "match didn't go how they wanted it to go". While a lot of people abuse this hook suicide system, and it does really suck for the other survivors, there are also fair reasons sometimes as to why survivors hook suicide.
Like who wants to just stare at a hook for 120 seconds until they finally die for example? Of course it's encouraged to do so, to buy your team time, but I can't blame people for just wanting to move on to the next game as well.
There are at the very least certain issues that would still have to be addressed before something like this could be implented. Camping and tunneling are at the very top of that list of issues. A broken killer like Nurse arguably another reason.
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@squirtinq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211561#Comment_3211561
I mean in general, whatever the update was seems to have made almost everyone dislike the game. I played a month or 2 before Wesker was released, so not a longtime veteran here. However, I have played games with spot-on mechanics and DBD is one of the worst ones.
Bloodlust is cringe though.
I mean, that is quite the exaggeration. There have been more than enough changes that were liked by a lot of people. The killer buffs themselves, except for bloodlust, were great for the game. There just also need to be nerfs to camping.
But if every change lately was disliked by pretty much everyone, we would have seen a clear drop in players by now, and that is not the case. DBD is actually doing pretty well player count wise.
DBD certainly has it's problems, but it also has it's upsides. Also, how many hours do you have in DBD? The start in DBD can be particularly rough for survivors, it gets better once you improve and increase you rmmr. An issue in and of itself if you ask me, but not really a balance issue, in general at least. Camping being particularly harsh on newer players, especially the hook grab mechanic, is however yet another reason why it really needs to be nerfed.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211848#Comment_3211848
No, it really doesn´t.
For example, gen times and regression perks. Imagine a gen done to 90%, then the killer comes, kicks it, and it regresses, while you get chased.
In swf you can always tell the others what gen was almost done and started regressing, so someone can just spend the time, go to that gen directly, and safe all your hard work.
In solo queue, you just cant. It is not uncommon to come back to a gen you had nearly finished and it regressed down to 0 again.
Thus, the 10 seconds extra and some of the perk changes really affected solo way more than swf, because communication can easily compensate for that.
Sure, dead hard affected both equaly, but an swf can organize a coordinated rescue against tunneling and camping, in a way solo can´t, thus those perks are more important in solo queue when they are in swf.
Also, more information will not help you with bad teammates, that hide in a corner anyway.
Well I disagree. I get your point, but I feel like that is quite the rarity. Often enough, survivors are already working on other gens, so it might not be worth it running over to the gen that was kicked and being regressed. I feel by that logic, any nerf to survivor, or buff to killer, is better for swf than for solo survivor.
The etxra 10 seconds are extra 10 seconds, no matter if swf or solo. It's just that it's more noticeable with solo survivor, because that role was already in a rougher spot.
There is no doubt that solo survivors do need buffs, giving them a lot of the information that swf survivors have. It's impossible to balance a game perfectly if there is such a balance gap between solo and swf survivors.
Regarding the coordinated rescue against tunneling and camping, that is just another reason why I think nerfing camping and tunneling more should have the highest priority right now.
However, I do not have any idea how bad team mates are relevant when discussing balance like this? Bad team mates can't be fixed with balance.
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The effort this must have taken is very impressive. And I have to say there are a good amount of neat ideas here.
However, I have to be honest here, if this was an actual patch in DBD, I would be pretty disappointed with it. Most notably, while the solo survivor buffs are definitely big, I feel this would be way too killer sided. But there are certain issues in particular I think are problematic here.
I think my biggest gripe here are the changes to skill checks. I agree with the intent though. Making gen interactions more interesting would be awesome. But these would also make them more challenging in my opinion, and that is an absolute no go. There is already a balance gap between low and high ranks, with kill rates getting higher the lower in rank you go. This would elavate this problem to a new level, especially the merciless storm basekit idea. So I do not think this would work at all.
The second objective you suggest here sounds great. I do not know why the electrifying status effect is needed, not a fan of that at all to be honest, but I do like the idea of attaching power cords to exit gates. It would be a much more interesting side objective, as it has you moving around the map, which in return increases the risk of interacting with the killer. I also think this second objective wouldn't hurt solo survivors more than swf survivors, unlike the much suggested searching for gen parts suggestion, which is another big plus. However I think something like that is very unrealistic to ever be implemented, especially considering the map changes this might need. If it wouldn't need any map changes, maybe this could be realistic, but only in the very distant future I fear.
But that second objective, on top of 85 second gens, on top of highly buffed regression, on top of an early game slowdown, seems way too much to me, even with all the suggested solo survivor buffs. I feel killers would have way too much time for their objective in that case. I also think that the survivor buffs are way too few. I think if BHVR would want to implement at least most of these killer buffs, tunneling and camping would have to be nerfed so much more. In fact, unless I missed it, you didn't suggest to increase the hook phase duration at all. Camping and tunneling would be so onsanely overpowered.
Increase the hook phase duration of each survivor from 60 to 90 or maybe even 100 seconds, and give survivors a basekit DS, with a 5 second stun duration, that is activateable twice, then I could see all these killer buffs at once maybe working, though even then, I fear certain buffs, like the regression buff, might be a bit too much at once.
With that said, there are good ideas here. The basekit anti-tunnel mechanic giving the same endurance effect as Mettle of Man for example sounds good, I feel that could even work right now at the moment, if survivors lost collision during those 10 seconds as well. The solo survivor buffs sound generally great, though I would much rather prefer some ping system over constant aura reading personally. And again, I do really like the idea of the second objective, and feel like that, in addition to decreasing gens to 80 seconds, could really be a good starting point for survivors objectives, some time in the future. BHVR could have a look at other factors, such as an early game slowdown, some time later then, when they also further nerf camping and tunneling.
I also like the idea of trying to balance maps less in the killers favor, instead increasing the objective time of survivors. This does leave room for bigger maps. But I do think that maps like Garden of Joy wouldn't need it's size reduced either. And some other maps would need their sizes increased, especially Dead Dawg Saloon, which is already arguably a killer sided map, even when the killer doesn't tunnel and camp.
But as one, complete patch, I think this would hurt the game a lot, at least once the novelty of all the new features wears off. I think this patch would sky rocket killer queue times to insane levels, because of the lacking nerfs to camping and tunneling, despite the insane buffs to killers.
I also think this is very, very unrealistic, but I am sure you yourself are aware of that. I think what actually needs to happen are changes to the five main problems in DBD: Camping, tunneling, solo survivors, map balance, and the early game. Camping and tunneling need to be continuously nerfed, but of course only as much as the current state of killers allows them to be nerfed. Solo survivors need to be buffed to the level of swf as much as possible, to create a much better foundation for the game's future balance. And maps also really need to be balanced much better, also to create a much better foundation for the game's future balance. And if possible, depending on how maps are balanced, some early game slowdown like you suggested could also be added to the game.
A second objective would definitely be awesome, and a fun new addition. But it would also be a much less time efficient solution as opposed to simply balancing maps more to make them fairer on killers. Right now, there are still a fair amount of maps that are, or can be, survivor sided, if the killer does not camp and tunnel. This does however also depend on which killers is being used. A lot of maps are pretty survivor sided for Sadako for example. For a killer like Pyramid Head, or Wesker, maps on average are definitely more balanced. And that's another thing, there are aspects like map design, and killer balance, that really cause big balance gaps, and adding a second objective does not improve that aspect at all. Balancing killers and maps however does.
So i think the much more efficient solution to improve killers is to simply balance the survivor sided maps more fairly, reducing them in size a bit, and working on the tiles that spawn on each map, which also further incentivizes killers to go for chases, and not camp hooks. Meanwhile, camping and tunneling, as well as solo survivors continuously need to be looked at as well. And last but not least, I think some form of early slow down would also bery very much appreciated, of course depending on how much camping and tunneling get nerfed, and how maps get balanced.
I also think the next step the devs need to take at the moment, considering queue times and kill rates, are some more adequate nerfs to camping and tunneling. Especially camping now needs some decent basekit nerfs, since it even was buffed in the 6.1.0 update. And for tunneling, I think simply buffing DS back to 5 seconds would do the trick for now, considering the basekit BT was also buffed already. As explained, these strategies also can't be nerfed into the ground, because of current map balance, right now they just need to be made a bit fairer and more manageable, considering how cheap those tactics are.
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211853#Comment_3211853
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211843#Comment_3211843
Halloween Kills was a stupid film but at the same time it made me laugh like crazy a lot when I was in theaters watching it, one of the most fun films to watch for me, it wasn't scary though, a few jump scares got me but that was it. The acting was so bad but that was the fun part to me. The music in that film was so badass along with Michael, Evil DIDN'T die that night.
I hope the new one is better, I'm going to have a interesting time when watching it in my hospital room.
Yeah I agree. Probably didn't enjoy the movie as much as you did, but I still enjoyed it. It was a fun watch, but some parts in particular were just aggrevating. I guess it was still a bit disappointing though simply considering it's the freaking Halloween series, and I was hoping for more.
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These changes do sound very good to really close the gap between solo and swf survivors. And it's something DBD really needs.
On the other hand, right now, I feel like camping and tunneling are just as much, if not more of an issue, that also need to be addressed in my opinion, and I would argue before solo survivors are addressed with these type of buffs. The reason I am even bringing this up is that I do think that killers would then also need some more improvements, if survivors ever got nerfs to camping and tunneling, and all the buffs that you suggest in the video. Even without camping and tunneling nerfed, the information buffs you suggest are really big, and by themselves might already require some small improvements for killers.
Nevertheless, it would further bring the game into a better state, as both roles still need continuous improvements to the right aspects, that make both sides better to play.
However, I can understand why BHVR has always been reluctant over simply adding aura reading abilities to survivors basekit. On the one hand they do also buff swf a bit, because auras give more precise information than communitcation does. But I also feel it might just take too much of the atmosphere away from DBD. I get that DBD stops being a horror game after some several hours, but seeing auras of survivors constantly might be a bit extreme.
What I am 100% hoping for are the survivor icons showing each other what everyone is doing. Hell, just adding those claws around every survivor that the obsession has in the HUD would already go a long way I feel. But just generally a bunch of different survivor icons that show what every survivor is doing would be so good. Maybe, when a survivor, or multiple survivor, are on hooks, there can also be a range indicator, showing how far each survivor is away from the closest hooked survivor to them.
This would also be the first change that I would add to the game, and then see how the game does, and whether killers might need a bit of help in certain areas, mainly map balance.
And then, personally, I would prefer some kind of Ping system over aura reading abilities. I kind of doubt BHVR would implement a full ping system, but one ability I could maybe see is the ability to mark objectives. Gens of course, but also totems. And yes, this would nerf Hex perks, meaning they would need to be reworked a little, receiving compensation buffs for the fact that survivors can now share to each other where hex perks are placed. However I think that also would be a must if we ever want Hex perks to have the same effectiveness against swf as they have against solo survivors.
Also, marking gens could then also display the progress of those gens, as you suggested.
I think such changes would be great, and I hope BHVR is at the very least going to work on those survivor icons very soon. It would greatly improve the game. And aura reading abilities would surely work as well, but I personally would prefer other solutions, like some form of ping system, if possible.
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I am probably going to go watch ths one with friends as well. But I am not going to expect much, just want to have a good time. The last Halloween movie was just so, so stupid in my opinion. Like absolutely ridiculous. But it was arguably also a fun watch, at least the majority of it.
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I will never understand the argument that the killer buffs affected solo queue more than swf survivors. Yes, solo queue can be rough, it could be rough, and now even more so. But the change hasn't affected matches with bad team mates anymore than it has affected matches for good swf teams. It's the same with nerfs to meta perks. The Dead Hard nerf hit swf survivors just as hard as solo survivors. It's just that solo survivors were already in a weaker spot.
And the same goes for the basekit Unbreakeable. In fact, I believe that would indeed help solo survivors more than swf survivors, because now solo survivors do not have to rely on team mates to pick them up, and vice versa, as a solo survivor, you know that the downed survivor can pick themselves up now if they are left on the ground.
10 seconds more on gens for example had the exact same effect on swf as it had on solo survivor. The problem is arguably just that solo survivors need to be brought up more to the level of swf survivors soon enough, when killers get balanced more around swf survivors.
Camping and tunneling are also the biggest frustrations for survivors to deal with at the moment, and it becomes especially frustrating when realising that both those strategies are clearly harder to deal with for solo survivors than for swf survivors. Just nerfing those tactics in proper ways would already close the gap between solo and swf survvors.
The game also defniitely needs to finally buff solo survivors by giving them more information that swf survivors have. With nerfs to tunneling and camping, this might require some more improvements to killer as well, hard to tell. But it surely needs to happen.
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It's very disappointing, no doubt. I was hoping for some nerfs to camping, and DS buffed back to 5 second stun, at the very least. Would have loved to see some other changes as well. Instead, we get this new Mori system, and it's not even releasing with the new update.
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I enjoy Dead Dawg a lot, especially for some of it's more unique tiles that can't be found on other maps. I feel like if you know the map, as a survivor you can still do pretty well on that map. But in general, due to it's small size and good amount of mindgameable and unsafe pallets, it's a bit of a killer sided map.
But I'd much rather play survivor on that map than the Game for example, because chases where both sides have counterplay are more interesting to me than just running from one pallet to the next and dropping it.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211754#Comment_3211754
You cannot prove that people have stopped playing survivor. The incentives are not an indicator of this especially when they do swap to killer at times. You have come to a conclusion and are solely looking to find things to prove your conclusion.
And people willing to either side of the game is not an indicator of survivors being inbalanced. You will never naturally achieve an 80% survivor playerbase without survivors being too strong because in order for 80% of the playerbase to want to survivor over killer they would have to be the stronger side.
This kind of doesn't make sense when considering that queue times were pretty balanced before the 6.1.0 update. Killer queue times were a bit longer during the day, and during the evening, survivor queue times were a bit longer. Killer queue times have clearly increased, heavily suggesting there has been an increase in killer players and a decrease of survivor players. You are right though, I can't prove it, but it makes the most sense logically to me. I can not find another explanation as to why killer queue times clearly increased after the last midchapter dropped.
Kill rates are at 61%, and killer queue times on average are clearly longer than survivor queue times, which wasn't the case before the 6.1.0 update. To me, that clearly shows that survivors are now in need of some more improvements. I see no reason why only killers should be improved, and not survivors. Camping and tunneling are easily the most complained about aspect of DBD as well, it would be pretty stupid to continuously just ignore those issues.
And if you look around on different sites discussing DBD, it seems like a vast majority agrees that survivors need some help against their frustrations.
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The problem with this is that chases on maps could easily get stale, once survivors figure out the best routes to run, which are the most favorable for them. With map tiles being random, there is some adaptive skill that plays a part of matches as well, and I think that is very important.
Always knowing which routes to run as survivor would make chases much more boring if you ask me. So I think map tiles 100% need to stay random, they just need to find ways to balance tiles better, by not having too many strong or weak tiles on a map at once.
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While I disagree, I do understand your argument regarding slugging. I also personally do not understand why that is getting addressed of all things in DBD.
But camping and tunneling? It should be clear just how disliked this strategy is by almost all survivor players, and how unfun it is to go against. It is extremely unhealthy gameplay for DBD.
And you talk about the game getting less skillful. What exactly does camping in particular have anything to do with skill? Ypu just stand in front of the hooked survivor and try to get hook grabs. Any nerf to camping just makes the game more skillful, albeit on the killer's side. But that is fine, considering all the buffs killers received in the last midchapter update.
Tunneling takes more skill, but still not nearly as much as playing killer normally. It is still a pretty ridiculous tactic in the game.
It's clear that there has been a shortage of survivor players ever since 6.1.0 has dropped when looking at queue times, and that most likely won't end until survivors receive some more deserved buffs against camping and tunneling. When it comes to tunneling, maybe just reverting the DS nerf would be enough for the moment, but camping still needs some proper, basekit nerfs, especially since it got buffed in the 6.1.0 update.
DBD could be in the best state it's ever been, but survivors need a bit more before that is actually the case, in my opinion.
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I enjoy playing as Clown, even if he isn't the strongest killer. He can do decently well though if you do manage to down survivors quickly, which is something he has the potential to do, because of his very strong anti-loop ability.
I do not really enjoy going against him however, because you fairly often feel a bit hopeless against him. That is not to say he has no counterplay, he does, but it is often not the most interesting, and can also be very loop and map dependent.