Zakon05
Zakon05
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I would be shocked if this isn't a temporary bug with their website. It looks like it got reverted to the default template for the service they use to host their forums.
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What's the problem here? That gif is just you working on a generator with your whole team still alive.
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I'm yet to be affected by this, does it punish you immediately or just give a warning?
The system should probably be looking for patterns of behavior over the course of many matches. Punishing you or even warning you after one game where the system detected you might be trying to ragequit too easily leads to false flags.
Also, just because it's relevant to the thread, here's a video someone posted to reddit of themselves getting false flagged:
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We had 4 people in a cage earlier, I was one of them, my first hook.
Two of the remaining survivors in chase, one dead.
Which left just one single survivor.
Who decided the best thing they could do with their time is self-care against Legion, then slowly walk to a generator and begin working on it.
That was also the last time anyone touched a generator besides me in that match. (we did get out of that situation because Legion pivoted to the one on the generator which let the person they were chasing unhook)
I want the bots back.
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Ironically, I think Kaneki would probably be a lot more balanced in 2v8, because there are a TON of pallets which are often easily chainable, and survivors can rebuild pallets. His easy injuries are also not as big a deal due to the medic class and the sheer number of survivors.
The entire reason Kaneki is normally oppressive is because it's often hard to reach something before he's on top of you, and healing takes a long time, which forces you into a catch-22 of either spend time healing against a killer with easy injuries or risk being quickly downed after he suddenly pulls up on you.
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They never said he was in a good state, they said his kill rate is "where they want it to be."
That could just mean they're fine with him being mediocre.
Though honestly, his kill rate even on nightlight is around middle of the pack. It's actually slightly higher than Wesker right now on there.
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As killer, yes. Basically every time.
As survivor… ehhh. Has way higher highs than killer, but way lower lows.
As killer I can boot up the game, pick a killer I feel like playing, generally have a good time.
As survivor, it kinds feels like gambling. You keep hitting that queue button and you keep getting crap game after crap game. But then you get that one good game, where the killer is playing in a fun way and all your team mates are trying, and it's a crazy dopamine hit.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
I tend to view the game as a halfway point between a party game and a competitive game. It's a partetitive game.
100% agree, that's how I view it.
I view it in a similar nature to like Team Fortress 2. You can play it competitively, and skill plays a big factor in who wins, but it's much too chaotic for a truly competitive experience without a bunch of house rules.
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@Archael said:
Quotes from OP:
"the way DBD handles MMR currently is actually perfect"
"It's true that basing it purely on escapes and kills does not reflect skill, which runs contrary to what an MMR system is supposed to do."
So it's perfect even if it isn't.
Premise is bad, arguments are poor thought.
Generalisations made by knly personal thoughts.
This is troll post for sure.
It's perfect for Dead by Daylight.
The way DBD's MMR works is horrible for a purely competitive game. But the only people who are treating this as a truly competitive experience are typically playing in private lobbies. If you bring super competitive energy into pub matches, most people seem to think you're kinda lame to put it politely.
You can put your thumb on the scales really hard to tip balance in your favor in this game. Lots of addons are extremely strong by design. Then you can further stack things in your favor by aggressively tunneling or by getting three like-minded people on voice chat to SWF with.
While I'm not a part of the "DBD is a party game" crowd, I also don't think it's a game where you should bring strong competitive energy, because it's way too imbalanced for that.
The way MMR works right now basically ensures the turbo sweats nobody likes playing with get quarantined into their own high MMR lobbies where 4-man SWFs are free to genrush against quad slowdown Blights for all eternity. The rest of us can keep going for goofy saves and playing mid-tier killers while playing for hooks.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926788#Comment_3926788
How the did you manage to get this outside all of text...
- Kaneki needs to hit with his power even injured survivors → free speed boost
- average chase against Kaneki (healthy vs injured) is not going to be higher than 32 seconds, which makes healing not effective
I always play injured against Kaneki and it's very rare for him to manage get into chase, where I can't do anything (land right next to me and down me M1). That simply doesn't happen unless you work on gen in open.
I have feeling you are Kaneki main and try to convince survivors to heal, so you win. Yes, that's definetly it.I don't really understand why you got snippy over that. We both agree that Kaneki is overpowered, we just disagree on whether healing is worth it or not.
Kaneki doesn't need to injure you with his power. Enraged mode is nice to have but not required. Fake Banette did a challenge where he intentionally never enraged and still won 40/41 games doing that. Granted it was before the last set of nerfs, but still.
I would say probably most times he hits you with his power while you're injured in a situation where he could just pull up next to you and down you, he wasn't actually trying to hit you. Most of them would rather take a down than extend their enrage.
Ghoul's main threat is his ability to just be on top of you almost instantly from just about anywhere on the map. If you don't heal, you run the risk of being downed for something as simple as him spotting you out in the open moving between generators.
I've tried playing injured and healing vs him. I usually lose either way, but I lose slightly less often when we heal each other.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926744#Comment_3926744
He gets free hits, yeah, but if you don't then he might just pull up right next to you before you can react and down you instantly.
Thing is he often needs to hit survivors even if they are injured, if he wants to be enraged, which still gives survivor a distance. So at that point that's free for survivors.
Kaneki usually won't manage to land exactly next to you at least not when he first gets to your location, but usually enough to injure you. Then you wasted collective 32 seconds (unless selfheal) for speed boost, which won't matter much against him either.
Kaneki is basically solely responsible for why I swear half of all survivors I see right now are running healing builds
Healing build is definetly one way to go for sure, but I really don't think it's worth to heal with normal speed against him. That wastes way more time than what average survivor last in chase (healthy vs injured).
There is noone with more free hit than Kaneki, so you really heal only for that movement speed bonus, when he gets to you. Which is lost as soon he gets his power back…
Either you need to stay injured in my opinion, or you need to have healing build to simply make it more effective. Trying to always heal without any perk for it is going to lose you most of your games imo.
Funny thing because of Resi I can heal others faster, but personally don't have an issue playing against him injured. I see very little difference there."Kaneki usually won't manage to land exactly next to you at least not when he first gets to your location, but usually enough to injure you. Then you wasted collective 32 seconds (unless selfheal) for speed boost, which won't matter much against him either."
That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't heal, that injure becomes a down instead. -
@mecca said:
It is strange how killers get new skills, powers, mechanics on a regular basis but survivors never get anything. A survivor is only a skin.
The only hype is for the skin. No new ways to evade, do gens, nothing.
Its really why killers have power creep and survivors is unplayable without a really good team.
It's because survivors even basekit are very difficult to catch if they know how to play well, and if their team is efficient on generators, then even fast downs may not be enough.
It's really hard to make interesting new powers for survivor that aren't overpowered. Nick Cage was like the shiny gold star of how to do that and they haven't been able to do it since.
And yes I know that survivors lose a lot. I play survivor, too. I win most of the time on killer and lose most of the time on survivor. I'm just saying that the potential is there.
Also, I wouldn't look at killers as a monolith. People will enjoy playing some killers but not others. They all have such distinctive playstyles that not all will appeal to everyone.
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At the least, whatever your opinion on if survivor needs help or not, can we all agree that the survivor HUD should show the anti-camp meter?
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926094#Comment_3926094
To be honest, I will not be surprised if Kaneki becomes Skully 2.0 and you will have tons of survivors just giving up.
You simply- can't hold W (dash in front of you)
- can't double back (he can just cancel and stop there)
- can't drop pallet (way faster vault than Wesker has)
- can't greed (he is not really punished for pulling out his power unlike other killers)
- can't play window (often use Bamboozle and even has purple addon for it)
Basically only thing that works against him is playing with Resi, stay injured and just gen rush him back to lobby.
But good luck trying to convince soloQ teammates to play injured, they don't do it even after all this time against Legion…
I don't really think he is better than Blight, Billy etc. not even close, but I definetly think he is so much easier to play and way more annoying to play against.Most experienced players (Ex: Hens) agree that healing is still correct to do against Kaneki. He gets free hits, yeah, but if you don't then he might just pull up right next to you before you can react and down you instantly.
So forcing survivors to heal is basically a free slowdown for him. You can try to play injured, but he moves so fast that even with his enlarged terror radius, if he knows where you are due to Barbecue or something, he can be on top of you in less than a second after you start hearing the terror radius.
Kaneki is basically solely responsible for why I swear half of all survivors I see right now are running healing builds. Every lobby I've been in has has someone with at least one of Resurgence, We'll Make It, or both. I'm even seeing a ton of Empathic Connection, a perk I basically never saw before this.
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They won't move the stats.
People hate the turrets. But the turrets are a necessary evil, because the tail is one of the strongest chase powers in the game in the hands of Xenomorphs who are good with it.
The only way to increase Xeno's pickrate is to remove the turrets, but then you'd need to nerf the tail. And the tail is already kind of clunky and takes practice to get good with.
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Intentionally targeting the same survivor who was just unhooked, even if their allies give you free hits or even downs to try to get you to stop.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924683#Comment_3924683
I care because there was not a single reason to change it and they did it anyway.
There is a reason, and it's why they changed it. It's more immediately familiar to new players.
If you're coming into DBD from other games, which again most games use this color scheme, you can now immediately get a feel for how rare an item or addon is purely by what color it is.
I mean DBD already almost used this exact color scheme.
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@SoGo said:
Because Fortnite is apparently a pinnacle of game development so we must make DBD a carbon copy of it, but "horror".
😐
This color system dates all the way back to Diablo 1.
World of Warcraft is technically the game that made it an industry standard.
Most games with item rarities use this color system, not just Fortnite. DBD was kind of an outlier.
I can't believe people actually care that much about this.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924642#Comment_3924642
ok, you WILL have to tunnel and camp. not might. you will.
except that its near impossible to do it because m1 killers cannot shred through those defenses.
these are specific requirements, so what? some games are simply unwinnable and we are just fine with that?Yes.
You sometimes get unwinnable games on both sides.
This is not a tightly balanced 1v1 game like Street Fighter or something.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924621#Comment_3924621
we have our first gaslighter
I took this picture to show what my killer prestige levels look like.
I play killer. I prefer it to survivor.
Survivors are not very efficient on generators on average.
Skill issue.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924608#Comment_3924608
tunneling and camping is the meta in pubs too, survivors are equally if not more efficient on gens in pubs because everything is allowed, and 4 mans do contain players who are cracked at looping.
babysitter was an S tier perk and it was still buffed.
it was one of like 50 strong anti-tunnel perks the survivors have and it was still buffed.
but you are 100% correct, I only have a problem with S tier perks being buffed because I "play scummy" :D always the scapegoat argumentNo they're not lol
If you think they are, that's a skill issue.
I try to play for 12 hooks as much as humanly possible and limit my regression perks to no more than 2 and I still win most of the time.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924597#Comment_3924597
why should we not use comp as a metric to determine a perk's strength? if the perk is banned then I'm going to assume it's pretty damn good. I assume you haven't seen the clip of the survivor on twitter going mach ######### after getting unhooked?
Because tunneling and camping is the meta in comp DBD, because all four survivors will be ultra-efficient on generators, cracked at looping, and locked in trying to win as hard as they possibly can, something that doesn't happen in pub games basically ever. If you do that in pub matches you will win basically every match. This is how we get stuff like MomoSeventh winning literally over a thousand games in a row.
And I know and I don't care, Babysitter is a purely altruistic anti-tunnel perk. You can't use it to bodyblock for allies since it doesn't extend the endurance effect or allow you to get off the killer's shoulder like DS, you can't use it to extend gen time like Reassurance. Even Blood Rush is more abusable, since you can use it to immediately reset Sprint Burst right before healing or getting on a generator.
The entire point of Babysitter is that the unhooker is trying to get the killer to switch targets to them. That's the only way in which it can be used. The benefits it provides the unhooked survivor are only useful if the killer is trying to tunnel them directly off hook.
I'm sorry but if you have a problem with that, you're playing kinda scummy.
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Literally nobody cares about what the invisible MMR regards as a draw or loss.
Yes, it's silly that the MMR regards the survivors abandoning the match as a draw for them. Yes, that should be changed. But also, nobody actually wants high MMR in this game, I guarantee you that the survivors who abandon would much rather regard the match as a loss so their MMR will go down.
"Quick, if I hit the abandon I get to avoid losing this match!" -said no sane survivor who is currently slugged or on hook ever.
If you downed all 4 survivors and they abandon, you win and they lose.
Also, complaining about Babysitter? Really? The most unproblematic, least abusable anti-tunnel perk in the entire game? Yes it's banned in comp, but you shouldn't really use comp rules to determine what's fine for pub matches, they are not playing the same game as everyone else.
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I agree, the pallet break did nothing to reign in how frustrating he is to play against and just made him feel worse to play as. Ideally I'd like to not have to drop pallets against him, since greeding and mindgaming at upright pallets is a lot of fun.
I would much rather have seen them slow him down slightly during his power cancel cooldown and reduce his movement speed a tiny bit.
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I have 4k hours, I'm only just starting to feel decent at survivor, as in I can run a killer for an entire generator on a semi-frequent basis. I still get crapped on sometimes and I don't escape often.
The fact is that at 1k hours you are still relatively new and inexperienced. I know that's insane to think, but it's true. DBD is paradoxically a really easy game to pick up and play, but unbelievably hard to master.
Check out Otzdarva's video here. He'd actually place you at being just short of an Intermediate level player.
https://youtu.be/dpuC1tsiU7U?si=vdW6LYNuFARuTXcwI recommend Mr Tatorhead on youtube. He is a really jovial and entertaining guy, and his passion for the game is infectious. He has comprehensive looping guides for a lot of maps and is still putting out more.
And when I say comprehensive I mean his Toba Landing one is 7 hours long. Yeah. 7 hours. For one map. See what I mean about how much depth this game has and how much you need to learn to get good at it?
https://youtu.be/ijSv29t0TgU?si=TaObPYpDt6E3BtDG -
@Nomade said:
being not fun to play against for survivors is a sign that the killer is powerful and good at doing their job. Wear it like a badge of honor.
Yeah like infamously high tier killers like Legion, Skull Merchant, Trickster, Knight, and Clown.
Survivors only like playing against low tiers they can easily beat like Wesker, Hillbilly, Oni, and Huntress.
And if the sarcasm isn't obvious, it's not power level, it's how engaging the killer's power is to play against.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922556#Comment_3922556
Which i don't understand. I hear here all the time that "chase is the most fun part of dbd" and that's what this killer does. He has no zoning anti loop that "forced" Survivors to pre run like mean old knight, artist, Nemesis etc.
I think Survivors just wanna call evet6thing out pre running everything that's what it comes down to.
Chase is the most fun part of DBD.
The problem with Kaneki is that quite often he denies chases by downing you before you can make it to anything.
It's map dependent of course, he's easier to deal with on more survivor-sided maps or maps with a lot of easily chainable tiles.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922604#Comment_3922604
I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe there wasn't some sort of pallet or window within EIGHT seconds of running to make it too.
Honestly you and me both.
"Okay- there should be a pallet here- no. Okay, there should be a pallet her- no… okay, it's that weird loop with the pallet in the center and the window, I'll take- what do you mean the pallet isn't there??"
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922427#Comment_3922427
If you don't have anything to loop you played badly. Hands down.
I once spawned in to Borgo, and he jumped across the map and hit me with Lethal Pursuer.
The match had just started, there should be plenty of pallets for me to run to. So I ran forward to look for one.
I literally couldn't reach one before he was on top of me again.
This was just bad map spawn RNG, a bunch of pallets did not spawn, but it isn't a skill issue that I couldn't materialize a pallet in front of me in the time it took him to finish his enrage animation and use his power again.
The fact is there are a few maps in the game where the tiles are spaced far apart enough that you may literally not be able to make it to anything. Haddonfield is another example of this, once a pallet or two in the street are used up then good luck making it to anything if he catches you out there.
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I hate playing against him, but I think the incremental approach is the best way to go about it. Keep tuning him down slightly, see where he stands after the nerfs. I wanna see how he is after this latest batch of nerfs.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922023#Comment_3922023
reply above. Also having good teammates is good counterplay to you? Please.
None of this addresses my issue with Ghoul.
My issue is that if you ever don't have something to loop next to you, you die, because their cancel cooldown and movement speed is way too short.
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@Brimp said:
Yeah unfortunately people just refuse to learn the counterplay.
What counterplay?
The only counterplay I've found against this killer is busted maps where you can quickly chain multiple tiles together, and hope your allies are efficient on generators.
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This game is my favorite competitive game of all time. I have over 4000 hours in it. I have multiple p100 killers and I am working on getting my first p100 survivor, and I have all achievements and completed all the tomes. I enjoyed the game through old Circle of Healing, Made For This, and Overbrine Eruption. I like playing against most of the cast, and the ones I don't like playing against I don't hate.
I hate playing against Kaneki. I hate playing against him a lot. One match against him tends to put me in an absolutely foul mood that lingers even if I immediately get off the game and do something else.
It's not the fact he's anime, in fact I bought several volumes of his manga to learn about him before he came out. It's not his free hits. It's the fact he has basically old Chucky scamper on top of the ability to dash ahead or on top of you and cancel power and down you because he moves almost exactly at survivor speed during it.
You have to be next to something you can loop him at at all times or you die. And a lot of Kaneki players realize that they're in a win/win situation on maps which don't have great pallet density, so they don't need to mindgame at loops. If they just walk through the pallet, they win. Either you drop it, they break it, then they catch up to you and kill you after creating a deadzone. Or you greed it and they down you.
You feel like you're in a constant lose/lose situation against this killer, and he is stupidly easy to pick up and play unlike other S-tiers. Other S-tiers also don't have a bunch of people saying they're not S-tier or trying to downplay their strength.
And it's even more psychologically needling if she's using the Rize skin, because she's giggling smugly at you while you're in a situation knowing you cannot possibly stall her for more than a couple of seconds unless you have a ridiculously survivor-sided map.
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@Jadelysta said:
I wish they would look into WHY theres a "Go Next Epidemic" and make changes based on that. Nobody really knows exactly what is ahead for the go next prevention, but i know player counts will suffer on the survivor side even more than they are now.
My queue times are still longer on survivor than killer.
For some reason. I have no idea why. I certainly don't want to play survivor right now with Ghoul still in an absolutely busted state.
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I've been playing long enough to remember when Borrowed Time was needed to give the survivor protection against being immediately re-downed, and people called it a "second chance" perk, too.
So I've always rolled my eyes at that term. I was a fresh new player in those days and even I, as I still do, wonder what "first chance" the survivor had upon being unhooked while the killer was camping and ready to slap them right back down if they got unhooked.
The implication seems to be that never getting hooked is the solution, which isn't realistic. Generally speaking, if the killer really wants to, they will down you even if they have to throw the game to do it.
Edit: And now I'm seeing people call NOED and No Way Out "second chance" perks for killers… which I disagree with just about as vehemently.
Those are end game perks. And in No Way Out's case in particular, you need to earn it. Meanwhile for NOED, you give up a portion of power you could use all game long in exchange for a burst of power during the final moments of the match.
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Before we got Dracula, I had an idea for a vampire killer with a blood absorption effect similar to Oni.
The idea I had was for the killer to start off in a feral state with no power except moving faster than an average killer, similar to Waterlogged Shoe Hag.
The more they get hits on survivors, the more collected they become, first becoming a 115% movespeed killer with a short ranged magic projectile like a fireball, similar to Xenomorph.
Once fully sated, their ranged attack loses its range limitation and they transition to a 110% projectile killer like Huntress except they don't need to reload.
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He wasn't ever stronger than Nurse, but he has an extremely low skill floor and barrier to entry. He is not only simple and intuitive to control, he has extremely easy first hits, and after you get that first hit you can play him at minimum like a 115% M1 killer who you can't hold W against at all.
So players of pretty much any skill level can pick him up and get a lot of value out of him.
Nurse has the steepest skill floor in the game. Actually playing her once you've mastered the timing on her blink is not demanding, but it still requires a bunch of practice. So unless you are in the top echelons of survivor MMR, you usually only run into Nurse players who aren't playing her to her full potential.
However, I do think he was and still is stronger than Blight.
In a bubble, just comparing the two side-by-side, Blight comes out on top. Ghoul has a lot of advantages over Blight, like extremely free first hits, literally having old Chucky scamper, being able to ignore most forms of exhaustion and anti-tunnel, being able to negate the strongest medkit items. But Blight's chase lethality is still stronger than Ghoul's.
What I think pushes Ghoul over Blight is perks. Ghoul works perfectly with every M1 perk and Exposed. Blight can't use these things efficiently.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914224#Comment_3914224
It gives him FREE HITS. It gives him insane map mobility. It lets him fast vault windows. And it's also one of the best chase powers currently in the game. It also stops the survivor in their tracks if used directly on them, which cancels all distance-making exhaustion perks, and it applies Deep Wounds so it also cancels Dead Hard and strips off anti-tunnel protections..
There should be a million asterisks here.
Yes it's a free hit, that gives far more distance to the survivor than a regular hit because he crashes out afterwards. The tradeoff is also that he's an M1 killer afterwards.
Yes it lets him fast vault, but only when enraged and with line of sight to a survivor.
Yes it stops the survivors if used on them, for an incredibly brief moment, while also incurring a long fatigue UNLESS you grab with an enraged vault, which still gives survivors time to run.
I can go on but I'd rather not waste my time any further because your rhetoric is extremely unfair. You're neglecting to mention every asterisk because you're trying to present your argument in a way that doesn't actually exist. If Kaneki was exactly the way you describe, he'd have a 100% kill rate. I'm done interacting with you. You're disingenuous and insincere in your argument. The way you're misrepresenting the power is actually irritating me and I'd rather not interact with you further. Your rhetoric would make Trapper sound overpowered.
I agreed in the past that Kaneki needed changes. He received changes. They aren't perfect (I would have preferred it if they just nerfed his survivor grab range by two meters instead of the entire power range) but he landed in a perfectly fine spot. He doesn't need further changes, be it nerf or buff. He's legitimately in a great spot at the moment and BHVR made great changes.
I'll close with this: Let's not further nerf a mobility power that cannot down people, especially if it's in a way that disincentivizes you from using it in cool ways during a chase. If you raise the cancel fatigue, he is dead. He becomes a slightly better Legion. The enraged vault shouldn't be nerfed because you'd might as well play Wesker, as I explained earlier in this thread. It makes no sense from the perspectives of design and balance to nerf the enraged vault speed.
You are being disingenous, not me.
- "Yes it's a free hit, that gives far more distance to the survivor than a regular hit because he crashes out afterwards."
He has what might be the best mobility power in the entire game to catch back up to them. Holding W is completely worthless against this killer. I'm not even sure if they actually get more distance, because the survivor is brought to a dead stop, which kills all of their momentum and I'm pretty sure eats a portion of their speed boost from being hit. At least it definitely feels like it does from my time playing as and against him, but it could just be because the survivor has to start running again from a standstill.
If you don't know this, survivor momentum is a big deal. If you've ever noticed that good survivors never stop moving at loops, running in circles or doing little wiggle motions, but you don't know why they do that, it's to keep their feet moving. If they're already in motion it takes less time for them to get back to full running speed than if they were in a dead stop, which is what the Ghoul does to them.
- "The tradeoff is also that he's an M1 killer afterwards."
This is like saying Spirit is an M1 killer. In that she is an absurdly strong chase killer who gets downs with her M1, but her power is all about getting her in position to be able to M1. Which means she's not really an M1 killer but she still benefits from everything in the game that is meant to help M1 killers make up for all of their deficiencies like Exposed.
- "Yes it lets him fast vault, but only when enraged and with line of sight to a marked target."
No, he can use his power to fast vault without a survivor there. It works like Wesker in this case, in fact it's exactly the same numbers. If he uses a survivor to fast vault while enraged, he gets a modifier applied to the speed which makes him operate more like Chucky's old Scamper.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914204#Comment_3914204
Vecna's flight is one of his four powers. Kaneki's leap is his ONLY power. As I said, it makes no sense from a balance perspective to force him to stare at you for 3 seconds when he outmaneuvers you. What is even the point of using the power intelligently in a chase to bodyblock a pallet or window if you make the fatigue so asinine that he cannot down you by the time you round the corner?
You're arguing in bad faith to ruin the character. The fatigue should not be touched because it would fundamentally undermine the killer's entire gameplay loop of outmaneuvering survivors and taking them down. You already have enough time to drop the pallet or vault the window if you get ahead of him. Your reasoning is unreasonable. He moves faster (which, by the way, still isn't as fast or faster than survivors) in order to try to block the path when he lands.
You're asking him to be Legion with more out-of-chase mobility. I'm sorry, I cannot ever understand your perspective.
I did not say 3 seconds, I'd be fine with 2.5 seconds and making it so he doesn't move just short of SURVIVOR RUNNING SPEED during the cancel animation.
Kagune Leap is his "only power" but it happens to do SEVERAL THINGS. You're accusing me of arguing in bad faith, but you are too by downplaying how versatile his "one power" is.
It gives him FREE HITS. It gives him insane map mobility. It lets him fast vault windows. And it's also one of the best chase powers currently in the game. It also stops the survivor in their tracks if used directly on them, which cancels all distance-making exhaustion perks, and it applies Deep Wounds so it also cancels Dead Hard and strips off anti-tunnel protections..
Vecna does not get free injuries with any of his powers. He does not have amazing map mobility. In fact, the only thing one of his powers does is tell him if any survivors are in a straight line from when he uses it and turn off their magic items which they get specifically to counter him.
Kagune Leap is way, waaaaay too good. It is actually the most blatantly and indefensibly overpowered thing I have seen be added to the game since original Circle of Healing. And it has just as many people trying to keep it from getting the nerf it deserves because they care more about easy wins than how miserable it makes their opponents.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914069#Comment_3914069
BUT the cooldown before you can M1 needs to be increased.
OR keep it the way it is now, but make him keep sliding. That way he would have to use the cancel at the right moment so when he stop sliding he would be close to the surv. Cancel too late/too close to the surv and you'll past him/her and land in China.
It already works this way. It doesn't need to be any higher. Any higher and you actually punish the killer for attempting to make cool, skillful plays with the power swinging around survivors. The cancel fatigue shouldn't be touched. The fact that the power goes on a forced artificial cooldown when you break a pallet is already enough of a concession. It's actually really good design because it rewards the survivor for outmaneuvering the Ghoul around a pallet and compelling him to break it. This is 100x better than increasing the fatigue.
It would legit ruin the character if you raised the fatigue.
It will not ruin the character if they nerf the cancel slightly.
Kagune Rush's cancel is very similar in nature to Vecna's Fly.
When Vecna cancels Fly, he moves at 2.3 m/s for 2.5 seconds. He can cut this down to 2.25 seconds with an entire addon devoted to it.
When Ghoul cancels Kagune Leap, he moves at 3.68 m/s for 2 seconds, except that he can cancel it mid-leap.
Survivor movement speed is 4.0 m/s.
The cancel is clearly overtuned. Survivors literally need to be constantly within 2 seconds of being able to drop a pallet or vault something or else they risk getting downed, because if Ghoul slides up next to you, you will never make it to anything.
I'm tired of the "but muh skillful play" - I actually don't care anymore. This killer gets the FREEST first hits in THE ENTIRE GAME and also has some of the best map mobility in the game. It's FINE for him to not also have an extremely potent chase power.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
If by "one small step" you mean like 85-90% of the way there, you're right. I don't expect much more is coming, and I don't think it should be. The vault speed is pretty much it.
And the Kaneki can't down you with his dash, which is what differentiates him from Blight/Wesker.
There will almost certainly be more refinement, but I'd be shocked if they nerf him out of S-tier.
Explain to me the meaningful difference between Blight rushing at you and hitting you, and Ghoul sliding up next to you and canceling power while moving at survivor running speed during the cancel animation.
I'll tell you what the difference is.
Blight doesn't get Scamper, he doesn't get free first hits, he doesn't negate anti-tunnel perks, he doesn't negate the strongest medkit items, he doesn't negate exhaustion perks, and Blighted Rush hits don't work with M1 perks. In exchange, the survivor gets 2> seconds to react.
Yeah I don't know if that drawback of Ghoul not being able to down with the power itself is really as big a deal as you think it is.
Honestly I'm genuinely starting to think Blight is worse than Ghoul. Blight is stronger as a killer, but the fact Ghoul can freely use so many perks that Blight can't which all trigger off M1s, plus the fact Blight has to respect Dead Hard and Off The Record while Ghoul doesn't, might actually give Ghoul the edge.
Not to mention Ghoul is 10x easier to play.
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@Roaroftime said:
the new killer is genuinely going to be my final straw for uninstalling this game
I joined basically on the same month original Circle of Healing was added, often regarded as one of the worst times to play killer, and I played and enjoyed killer throughout that meta.
I played through Dead Hard for distance.
I played through Overbrine Eruption.
I played through Made For This.
The Ghoul is the most unhappy I've ever been with this game.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Using Plot Twist also takes away Iri Unbroken, because you technically went into the dying state.
It would be better if Iri Unbroken went by not getting hooked.
Plot Twisting too soon after being unhooked also counts as an unsafe rescue and tanks your rescuer's Altruism score.
So, Plot Twisters out there, please remember that and wait 15 seconds before using Plot Twist after being unhooked.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913656#Comment_3913656
@NarkoTri1er is right here.
It is a trend that some killers release in an overtuned state and swiftly get nerfed after release. Xeno, Chucky and Dracula all had their powers nerfed.
While this is not consumer friendly practice imo. This seems to be the way things go now.
Last survivor perk that got released in an overtuned state was mft and that long overstayed it's welcome. In that regard, BHVR has gotten much better as it's been a while since end transmission.
Xeno got nerfed within 2 weeks, and all they did was roll back a buff it got from PTB. It wasn't even a severe nerf, it just made it so Xenomorph actually got punished for missing instead of being able to throw out YOLO tail strikes.
Chucky was one of the best killers in the game for an entire year, then got over-nerfed, but got buffed again in the Ghoul patch.
Dracula got buffed after release, and then all they did was half-revert the buff and nerf Medusa Hair. Dracula is still one of the strongest killers in the game.
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Mostly endgame builds. I want survivors to finish the generators so we make more progress towards the event BP bonus.
Side note, the number of people who get salty about NOED on an M1 killer like Freddy or Vecna with a full endgame build is quite funny.
When I point out that my entire build is endgame perks, they don't care.
In case you wanted to know the critical thinking skills of people who get mad about NOED.
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I can't believe manual scamper survived.
I don't know why it wasn't the first thing on the chopping block for them to nerf on him.
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This is cool and useful to know, but I feel like it should have been posed in the PTB bug report subforum. I'm worried this will get washed away and not noticed in the general forum.
Edit: I kinda worded this strangely, I'm not trying to say this is good. What I'm trying to say is that this really needs to get attention drawn to it so it can be fixed.
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This was a pretty interesting and nuanced adjustment from the devs, I have to say. My number one problem with this killer was that if he got you to drop a pallet, you probably wouldn't make it to another one unless you had really favorable pallet spawn RNG.
I still kind of wish they had just nerfed his power cancel slightly. At the moment, it is only 2 seconds and he moves at near survivor speed while doing it. I get why they didn't want to adjust this, since it allows for skillful plays at loops. But it also leads to cheesy and frustrating gameplay for survivors sometimes as this dude just slides up next to you and downs you because you didn't have a pallet or window you could reach within the next 2 seconds.
Either way, I'm glad to see they aren't overreacting to the calls for nerfs and are starting with small adjustments to him. He is so close to being a well designed killer.
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It should be fine if they don't delay much longer before applying the nerfs.
You gotta remember that people hated Skull Merchant before she even came out. A blurry screenshot got leaked of her and people hated that. People hated her long before we figured out how well her power worked with 3gens. And then she was left in that state with Chess Merchant running rampant for months.
Ghoul's initial reception was much more positive and he's only been out a couple of weeks.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911857#Comment_3911857
You have no clue what you’re talking about. You can’t ignore the bodyblocker if they block a doorway or path. Or a just good at boxing you out.
“Oh just play Blight!” Is not a reasonable excuse either
Yes… it's an anti-tunnel perk.
If a survivor if standing in the doorway acting as a living obstruction, it stands to reason they are trying to get you to switch to them and stop chasing the person they're covering for.
The perk would just be doing its job in this case?
I don't know, this feels like complaining about how Babysitter gives the unhooked survivor 30 seconds of suppressed scratch marks and blood and +10% haste.
"I can't tunnel the survivor who has the anti-tunnel effect on them!"