Zakon05
Zakon05
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It took a while for me to get this one so I could get my 100% achievement trophy back on my steam profile. I waned to hug the 30th survivor who hit me with a pallet and blinded me.
It's probably because Ghoul is in the state he's currently in and flashlights are almost worthless against him.
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@Brightened said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911477#Comment_3911477
I actually thought this too.
They release him OP so all the killer mains will buy him and then nerf him after they've made their sales. I've been wondering if that's been happening.
It really hasn't, the only egregious example of this has been Chucky, and Chucky was amazing for almost an entire year until he got gutted… and then he got buffed again this patch, just he's not as good as he was.
Looking at the last handful between Chucky and Kaneki…
Houndmaster actually released in an underpowered state and had to be buffed.
Dracula got a much-deserved nerf to his transformation cooldown and to Medusa Hair, and came out of it… still one of the best killers in the game.
Vecna got a little nerf to Mage Hand, just because that ability almost guaranteed hits in some situations, but he was never oppressive.
Unknown is basically perfectly balanced.
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@Langweilig said:
Zakon05 keep ignoring all the other killers that can do the same and even crazier stuff. It would be fine having a scamper at normal vault speed. It wouldn‘t be a problem balance wise or fun wise, just like all the other killers that can do the same stuff aren‘t! You just don’t like it, but that‘s no argument against it.
I did not.
I explained that Dracula and Vecna cannot do it like Chucky could. Both of them have way more counterplay and require more effort on the part of the killer.
I said Legion can, but needs an iridescent addon for it, and I don't like that he can do it.
I said Houndmaster can do it, but also there's a way to shut it down, which Chucky did not have.
I said Ghoul can do it, which started this whole conversation, and my point was that he should not be able to do it.
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Because it at least forces the Chucky to use Slice & Dice and thus have to aim an ability to get a hit at god pallets, instead of just pressing spacebar next to a dropped god pallet and getting a free hit.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911377#Comment_3911377
Slice and dice scamper is useless and needs very bad survivors to work. It‘s so easy to dodge.
Original scamper was very much manageable and gave you only hits where you would have been hit by other killers powers as well, but for some reason chucky’s scamper is so unfair. I don‘t get it, especially since it was so easy to loop him if you managed to keep track of him. His old slice and dice was a lot more unfair than old scamper was.
Why would it be a problem if it is only useful at good pallets? That would have been competently fine. They don‘t need to make slice and dice scamper and manual scamper the same speed. They can make slice and dice scamper 1 second and manual 1,6-1,7 seconds. Additionally we would still have the silent vault for chucky’s window scamper. This would give chucky’s players a lot more options on what to use when.
All of the pallets where a nerfed manual scamper would be able to get a hit are the same pallets where slice & dice scamper can get a hit.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911354#Comment_3911354
My point is not the strength of various abilities rather that behavior should have nerfed scamper instead of removing it. They only needed to increased the time it takes to scamper to something like 1,6-1,7 seconds. 1,7 seconds is the time takes to vault a window as killer, which would be 100% fine. Why are all these killers allowed to have a scamper ability while chucky‘s got completely nuked?!
For vecna I meant mage hand before it got nerfed of course, but fly is a good call as well.
That's what they did, Chucky can still scamper by Slice & Dicing at the pallet. You can get some fun hits like this.
Original manual scamper was never going to work. If they kept it but nerfed it, you would only be able to use it to bypass god pallets, which is something he can do with Slice & Dice scamper. If they didn't nerf it, it would still guarantee him at hit at every pallet with nothing the survivor can do about it.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911214#Comment_3911214
I really don‘t get behavior. They remove scamper from chucky. Some time later they release killers with the same feature.
- Houndmaster has a scamper
- Dracula has a scamper
- Kaneki has a scamper
- Vecna has a scamper
- They buffed legion to have a better scamper
But for some stupid reason chucky’s isn‘t allowed to get his back! They only needed to reduce the scamper speed for when you do it without slice and dice. They did it with houndmaster and some of the others. Why not chucky?!
Houndmaster doesn't have a Scamper, at least not like Chucky did. If she's trying to cheese you by waiting to send the dog until you've dropped the pallet, just camp it and wait for her to send the dog first, then drop the pallet to stun the dog.
Dracula can fly over the pallet, but you have plenty of opportunity to counterplay him for doing that, since the cooldown on shapeshift got nerfed.
If Vecna is able to hit you at a dropped pallet with Fly, he outplayed you. Fly is very difficult to use to outplay a dropped pallet that a survivor is hugging. He has no collision during the cooldown of Fly, so you can run back into him and re-vault it and now he's stuck on the other side of the pallet instead. He can anticipate that you might try to do that and maneuver the Fly so that he slides back onto the same side of the pallet he began the Fly on, but that's difficult to do, and he needs to commit to that action when starting it, which means he needed to read that you were going to try to vault back into him.
Legion needs an iridescent addon to do it. It is pretty cheesy when it happens to you, though.
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@ChuckingWong said:
Whats crazy is most of this stuff was known in the PTB and … nothing was done about it lol
So for the people saying "man we should just chill its not been that long"
Spoiler alert, yes it has.Not everything.
Like the absolute BS fast vault he gets while enraged, that wasn't in PTB. They just slipped that onto him when they moved him on to live for some reason. Like when Xeno got a pointless buff going from PTB to live that made the tail way too forgiving to miss.
There is absolutely no way that vault speed stays. It's basically manual Scamper again, except on a killer who is way stronger than Chucky ever was. And it's even worse because Chucky at least needed to be next to the pallet already, Ghoul can snipe you with their power from a distance and pull themselves to the window/pallet before fast vaulting it.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910865#Comment_3910865
EXACTLY THIS!!! I don't want BHVR to touch The Ghoul until tempers have cooled off and calmer, more level-headed discussions are being had. As is, there is far too much foaming at the mouth, enraged screaming, and demands for nerfs. Like FFS guys, Kaneki has only been released for a little over a week; that's hardly enough time to gather reasonable data. And yes, he has a high pick and kill rate because he is new, and everyone wants to pay him. That's just the cycle of new killers. When Wesker was released, I could hardly go ten games in a row without at least six to eight games being against Wesker. But whenever I complained, I was just told to "shut up and deal with it." and "he's new, everyone wants to play him, give it a week and he'll be not as highly picked." It's so strange how people forget this when it's a killer they "personally" don't like, but if it's some other killer someone else doesn't like, then "tough luck, the game isn't about you".
That said, I also agree with you that Kaneki needs adjustments, nothing extreme, just a few number changes and a reduction in his hitbox distance. He also has a number of very nasty bugs that need addressing, and his animations could use some tightening so they seem more fluid and like you aren't just grabbing survivors out of thin air at vaults or hitting them behind objects.
That's not how it works, the longer they leave him in this state the angrier people will get, and the more unreasonable their expectations will be.
Remember Skull Merchant? People hated her so much that even when they reworked her into a mostly unproblematic state, people still gave up against her because the hatred for her by that point was too extreme.
It's undeniable that Ghoul is a wee bit overtuned right now, especially for his ease of play. But they really just need to adjust some small things to get him in a balanced but strong state.
Something as small as getting rid of his ridiculous manual scamper vault, and reducing his movement speed when canceling power so he can't just slide up next to you out of nowhere and hit you before you have a reasonable chance of reacting would do wonders for bringing him in line.
He's very reminiscent of Spirit at the moment. I don't mean current Spirit, I mean original launch Spirit, who was way too strong and had very little counterplay in a lot of circumstances. Hopefully he gets the same treatment as she did, toning him down into a state that's still very good.
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I personally think that a killer's strongest addons should be of green or purple quality. This allows people who like the character but not enough to take them to high prestige levels to maintain a healthy stock of what they need to play the killer every so often when they feel like it.
I think iridescent addons should do special and/or fun things as opposed to just be strong, because if they're just strong then people who main the character can spam them. In some cases, they might even handicap the character somehow, but the point is that they make the character do something they don't normally do.
Here are some examples of what I think are well-designed iridescent addons.
Waterlogged Shoe (Hag): Increases Hag's movement speed to be the fastest in the game without haste, but removes her ability to teleport to her clones. Enables the "Chag" playstyle
Black Box (Freddy: Sleeping survivors are locked in the trial for 15 seconds after the exit gates are open. Enables end-game builds and especially his own perk Blood Warden.
Vorpal Sword (Vecna): Allows you to remote break dropped pallets with Mage Hand instead of lifting them back up. This is just a fun power to use, one of my favorite addons in the game.
Red Moss (Demogorgon): Makes coming out of tunnels silent, increases the duration of the undetectable effect. Enables stealth playstyles (or it would if Demo wasn't so damn loud)
Matchbox (Nurse): Makes Nurse a 110% M1 killer with a single blink.
Lab Photo (Wesker): Allows Wesker to break pallets and walls with his dash, which enables stuff like Spirit Fury/Enduring builds.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911099#Comment_3911099
To be fair, genuine infinites (which I have no doubt that old BL creates) ARE game-breaking.
Old BL allowed for the speed boost on a 60 second cooldown and wasn't exhaustion. This is still exhaustion, it's just the 75% stagger reduction is still applying even while exhausted. I can't think of any infinites this creates, it's just kind of annoying for pure M1 killers to deal with.
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I am highly appreciative of Fake Banette for making a video where he deliberately never uses Ghoul's power to get injuries and only uses it as map traversal/anti-loop.
He does it in the blood moon mode, which is regarded as survivor-sided due to slowdown perks being so bad in it.
He still wins and makes Ghoul look extremely oppressive.
Can we please stop saying this guy is just an M1 killer after the first hit? It's so disingenuous.
https://youtu.be/E5wp_ZfaXR8?si=ecKoeKhlVVBuXV2X -
@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910743#Comment_3910743
In Japan, many players place the emphasis on “repairing the generator and escaping,” and the chase is simply a way to buy time.
For this reason, the killer appreciated in Japan is a character who is fast in patrolling and can put pressure on the entire map.
Here, it is not unusual for Chucky to have only one generator left before he is downed four times, and killers who are just strong at chasing tend to be rated low in general.
Yeah I get that, I can definitely see how Chucky would not be rated as highly in a scenario where survivors really pressure generators hard. The disconnect I have is that he was seen as one of the worst in the game.
Chasing is primarily done to buy time for generators here, too. It's not like survivors wait around and watch the chase happen, unless they are trying to position for a flashlight save. Getting a survivor on the hook is one of the strongest methods of applying pressure to survivors, and Chucky was very good at doing that.
Chucky was even regarded as strong by professional players in competitive settings, and they were most certainly applying generator pressure.
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@daikaimon said:
What are the main complaints of North American players?
By far the biggest one at the moment is the Ghoul.
The extreme ease at which he gets injuries, incredible map presence, and still very good chase potential makes him regarded as one of the game's best killers at the moment. That combined with his ease of play and exciting gameplay means he's seen very frequently. He is grating on NA players very hard, and what nerfs he needs to receive is a huge topic of discussion. Nearly everyone agrees he needs nerfs, but it seems like most of us want him to still be good after the nerfs, just less oppressive.
There is some disagreement on where exactly he belongs on the tier list. His defenders insist he is merely high A-tier, while some of his haters think he's stronger than Nurse.
I personally place him as the 3rd best killer in the game at the moment, behind Nurse and Blight.
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I've heard of these differences before. I've heard conflicting things, too. Like I've heard Japanese players will ruthlessly camp/tunnel, but I've also heard that they never camp/tunnel.
The thing that I don't understand is how we disagree on some things which seem like we're playing completely different games.
Like I've heard Self-Care is highly rated over there, but over here it's regarded as a throw perk.
And I have no idea how you rated Chucky so low. I can see a meta in which he wasn't seen as strong as he was here, since he was all about highly lethal chase presence in exchange for poor macro presence. But he was really, really good in chase, and if you get downs fast enough, that's still a lot of pressure on the survivors.
The only way in which I can see that happening is if it's expected for survivors to bring multiple Brand New Parts and other perks to do generators faster, which would really prey on Chucky's weaknesses. Brand New Parts aside, generator rushing perks are not popular here.
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Yeah it's happened to me before. Sometimes you get rolled. Try to figure out what went wrong and what you could have done better.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910230#Comment_3910230
I don't get how skull merchant 2.0 can be so despised but there's no commotion over Clown, who is basically the same thing.
To be fair, I don't think I've ever heard or met a single person who enjoys playing against Clown.
The main difference is that Clown doesn't have the leftover baggage from Chess Merchant hanging over him.
Clown also doesn't have the lockon pipping mechanic. Once you get a pip towards a tracking beacon put on you, there's no way to get it off without getting put in the dying state or just forcing it yourself by intentionally running into a beam. That's a pretty uniquely annoying aspect of playing against Skully.
Clown doesn't have a stealth component to his kit, either. I think a lot of people really hate getting injured in a way that feels cheap/unfair. This is why I think so much of the Ghoul feedback at the moment is on his ability to get free and basically unavoidable injuries, as opposed to what I think is his bigger problem that he still has pretty great chase potential and map presence on top of getting super free injuries, which is something Plague and Legion don't have
Skully's stealth isn't the main component of her kit, but she is unique in that she has no pre-warning or stalking mechanic. She just walks up on you extremely quietly and then M1s you. It's definitely the most obnoxious part of playing against her to me.
Skull Merchant's actual power in the drones is not really that bad to play against, at least I think.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909988#Comment_3909988
Honestly, take all the time you need. I feel like yall are stuck on the 110/115 debate and you're trying to take both sides into consideration. One side will have to be disappointed.
I don't envy the position you're in. Trickster players are few, so they are passionate about him. That's why I feel people are being vocal about what they'd like to see with him.
I don't feel like they're in that position at all.
I haven't really seen anybody super enthusiastic about the new drone design. I feel like a lot of people who thought it was a good idea are people like me, who don't play the character but thought that the concept was kind of neat.
I would not play her even if they went with that idea, I am happy with my current killer mains and her aesthetic design doesn't appeal to me.
We don't matter as much as the people who currently main her, and I have not seen any of them happy about it.
I get that they can't keep her current design, because nobody really enjoys playing against it. But that doesn't mean they need to gut her identity as a trap killer.
Edit: I just realized you're talking about Trickster, which… I mean, literally everything I said up there applies to him, as well. So I'm not going to delete this post.
Listen to people who main the character first. Please. Other people do not matter as much.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Two weeks ago, we shared a Design Preview focused on a proposed rework for Skull Merchant. We saw so much amazingly in-depth discussion come out of this and your participation in the survey helped us dig deeper into how you felt about the specifics of the preview!
Looking at these survey results, 51% of respondents were satisfied with the changes and 24% had a more neutral outlook. That’s a great starting point! It shows we’re on the right track, but that there’s room for adjustments. First, let’s look at some of the interesting points we saw come up:
- There was a lot of love for her drones! The two most positively received mechanics were the ability to control drones and the Drone Propulsion action.
- While the concept of drone hacking was well-liked, we also heard your concerns that the value of this action felt like it could skew towards Survivors, specifically because it would reveal the Killer.
- The global detection power sparked a lot of interest, but its practical value wasn’t totally clear. We’re taking these points into account!
So, what’s next? Drawing on your feedback, the team is taking this rework back into the workshop to make some adjustments. In a couple weeks, we’ll be back with an updated preview and look forward to hearing your thoughts! Specifically, a few of the key topics we’re investigating are:
- Focusing on Skull Merchant’s identity as a crafty Killer who meticulously tracks her prey with high-tech tools.
- Balancing her map pressure so she has (and can benefit from) wide awareness via her drones, without the playstyle feeling like it supports camping, slugging, or 3-gening.
See you in The Fog!
The Dead by Daylight Team
Whatever you do, please remember that a lot of people who currently enjoy playing her enjoy her because she is a trap-focused killer.
We have plenty of dash and skillshot based killers already. Trap-enjoyers only have Trapper and Hag to work with.
Also, please take PixelBush's exhaustive video critiquing the changes into account.
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Can we wait to see the numbers on Pentimento before we begin writing its obituary?
At the moment, I don't like using it because it is devastating towards solo queue. Allowing survivors to see the aura of the totem just bridges the gap between solo queue and SWF, who can communicate who cleansed what totem and where.
So with this change, as long as the slowdown remains good, then the perk should still be usable.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
- [NEW] Upon completion, players receive quest rewards automatically without needing to return to the Quests menu.
IMO this reads as if you cannot save the rewards anymore. But personally, I dont think it would really be needed. I am usually doing the same and save Tome Challenges for the next Chapter Release, but now with the BP Cap at 5 Million, you should have enough to bring characters to a decent level (If I am correct, should be P6 for one character or P3 for two Characters with 5 Million BPs).
Yeah but they also clarified that archives challenges were separate and distinct from quests, and still needed to be selected and completed one at a time.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908696#Comment_3908696
It sounds like your refering exclusively the soloq. In solo people don't usually gen rush, they actually avoid gens because it's boring. But SWF that play to win absolutely do gen rush, they also have no need for anti slug perks or info perks due to the fact they get these from coms.
The reason why the event is survivor sided is because swf in particular don't need gen rush builds as it's basekit with the speed of the new blood gens, they don't need info perks as they use coms so they are free to all use chase perks without compromising anything like info or gen speeds. Makes downing people very difficult. The ghoul is the main issue here, incredibly OP and new so survivors are dropping fast. But without ghoul I would say the event is very survivor sided. It just so happens many solo players don't touch gens which means killers are tearing people apart.
SWFs don't use gen rush builds, they just… do generators. Often while their allies who are running multiple chase perks stall you for as long as possible.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908696#Comment_3908696
Survivors don't run gen perks / items? This should be news to the killer players i see complaining about "gen rush" builds all the time...
Yeah, speaking as someone who does play killer about 60% of the time, they're not very common.
I see way more builds focused around chase perks.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908628#Comment_3908628
Survivors get bloodsense maps, but thats it
I actually really appreciate this. I like maps, they make it much easier to run boon builds, but they're kind of rare on the bloodweb usually.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908478#Comment_3908478
Survivors have just as many perks tied to gens as killers, so no, thats not true.
And the blood gens are very rng dependant as shown on indoor maps when all the pumps spawn on one floor and all the gens spawn on the other floor.
Most survivors don't run gen builds, because they only make the least interesting part of the game faster. The only non-genrush perks this messes with are like Flashbang, Blast Mine, and Wire Tap. And I guess, like, Aestri's perks, but those are mostly for the memes anyway.
Most survivors are running some combination of anti-tunnel, anti-slug, chase, and info perks.
Killers absolutely need at least a little bit of gen slowdown in their build unless there's a massive skill discrepancy or they're cracked at a high A or S tier killer.
Incidentally, this means I'm still losing most of the time in this mode as survivor because of all of the Ghouls, since you can get great results with them without much effort.
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@eacyt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/442009/ghoul-overtuned
75% of the time after i get hit by power which is also usually through a wall i rarely have time to even make it to the next tile the cooldown is so fast its actually insane, they really made a huge mistake with this killer its WAY too powerful theres no doubt about it. In my opinion it needs to be killswitched and be nerfed and they need to fix the bug where u get through the wall.
I've had problems making it to two pallets that were almost side by side before, if the Ghoul zones me properly before kicking the first pallet.
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Honestly as silly as this is, this isn't my problem.
Like, okay, the killer gets the freest injuries in the game's history. Fine.
My problem with the "just like Legion" crowd is that they act like the Ghoul struggles to get the second hit.
Like I was on Eyrie just now and dropped the pallet on the balcony with her on the far end of the balcony.
She used power to vault it immediately and then blocked it. Now I can't make it to anything. The entire upper floor of Eyrie is a glorified deadzone against this killer.
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@MarthaMEG03 said:
Sadly, we've seen this before: BHVR brings a new license killer that's almost S+ tier, that can compete with Nurse and Blight, that generates huge sales because they have a crushing power, then, after a month or two of their release, BHVR will announce that "after the new feedback" they have "decided" on balancing the killer and they just nerfed it to the ground (just like Chucky and his scamper ability, or Vecna and his Mage Hand power or his movement speed add ons)... And this will happen, and no one will play as Kaneki ever again because it will be "too difficult" to grasp his power without the auto aim, which would have never happened in the first place if people actually wanted to learn and master the new killer, instead of just taking the easy way out. These next couple of months will be miserable for survivors (especially the Solo Q players), but come the Anniversary and the Five Nights at Freddy's DLC, The Ghoul will be gutted, they would probably removed the auto aim, decreased his movement speed and increased the cool down after canceling his power and he will be replace by Springtrap all together.
Chucky was a top 5 killer for a very long time after the Scamper nerf until they over-nerfed him a little bit ago, but he just got re-buffed. He's not as good as he used to be, but he's really solid right now, probably around the same tier as Wesker.
Vecna wasn't OP even at the height of Mage Hand's power.
Can you think of an example of this actually happening? Because I went through every licensed killer they've added since I began playing and I couldn't find one.
Like the next closest example would be Dracula, but Dracula is still really really good.
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Obviously the Ghoul is overtuned, but I think people are just using confirmation bias here to see a pattern that doesn't really exist.
Beginning with the chapter I joined on, which is Pinhead:
- Hellraiser: Upper B tier killer, solid perks but nothing overpowered, hasn't really been nerfed in any way other than making solving the box easier while the Chain Hunt is rolling.
- Ringu: Sadako released in a notoriously bad state aside from a slugging playstyle which wasn't discovered for months. Her best perk was Call of Brine, and it didn't become meta until the big perk overhaul. Yoichi's perks are niche/mediocre.
- Resident Evil 2: Wesker is a strong but balanced killer with mediocre perks, hasn't really needed to be nerfed all that much, and his perks are mediocre. Ada has one interesting perk and two mediocre ones. Rebecca is the most noteworthy part of this chapter for the argument that people are making, because Hyperfocus is really strong when you build around it, and Reassurance is one of the best anti-camp perks in the game, but neither of them have been nerfed.
- Alien: Xenomorph got a pointless buff going from PTB to live which got rolled back shortly afterwards, and Xeno hasn't been touched since then aside from an ill-advised attempt at rebalancing it which got walked back. Ultimate Weapon was really blatantly overpowered on release and was obviously due for a nerf, so this is the first example I can think of for paid-only DLC which is deliberately tuned too strong. Xeno's other perks are niche and not problematic, and same goes for Ripley.
- Nicolas Cage: One of the best content drops in the game's history. Three fun, strong, but not overpowered perks which haven't been adjusted since he came out.
- Chucky: He was too strong on release, got reworked and was still very strong for several months until they over-nerfed him. They just re-buffed him and he's pretty strong again, but not on the level of Spirit like he used to be. His only noteworthy perk is Friends 'Til The End, which hasn't been nerfed.
- Alan Wake: Champion of Light is the only noteworthy perk, his other two are bad. If anything, this chapter is an argument against the idea they intentionally overpower paid DLC to nerf it later, because unless you're a flashlight lover, Alan has nothing to offer you.
- Dungeons & Dragons: Mage Hand was a little too good on release, but otherwise Vecna is pretty balanced and hasn't seen much in the way of adjustments. His perks are mediocre aside from Weave Attunement being an annoying solo queue stomper perk in its release state when combined with Franklins Demise. Aestri's perks are mostly meme perks.
- Tomb Raider: This is roughly on the same level as the Alan Wake content drop, with one decent perk which hasn't been nerfed and two bad perks.
- Castlevania: Dracula released strong, got a buff which made him overtuned, and then got nerfed into… still being really good, just less unfair. His and Trevor's perks are niche.
- Tokyo Ghoul: We'll have to see where this goes, this is one of the most blatantly overpowered things they've released since I began playing other than original Circle of Healing, but considering what I just listed, I don't see a pattern of this happening. His perks are niche to bad.
All in all, there are actually not that many blatantly OP things which needed to be walked back later, and some of them are from original chapters you can get with auric cells. Object of Obsession, Decisive Strike, Mettle of Man, Boon: Circle of Healing, Made For This, and Ultimate Weapon. Chucky got re-buffed so he doesn't count. It's really not a big list. Ghoul belongs on this list, but we don't know what their ultimate fate will be or how hard they'll be hit with the nerf bat.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904941#Comment_3904941
Something's not adding up. There is no possible way that you broke that pallet, were chain blinded so you couldn't see, and went straight to main backdoor with your ability before he could even get there. Didn't you just use your ability to injure him and give him a sprint burst? How could you have it again already, or even walk there that fast? That's point number 1. Number 2, there's like 4 different variations of that tile, and every one most definitely allows the survivor to get to door before you've charged up any ability after a pallet break. Even the variations where the pallet is closer to the door, which would put you both closer to it, would make it an even more fantastical story. I don't know if they have changed how far the tile spawns from the main since this chapter dropped, but I can think of no other explanation. I'm not saying you're lying. I'm just saying it's impossible.
I decided to re-create the situation.
I had to substitute Nurse for playing Survivor, since I have no friends who play this game. IIRC, Nurse moves at the same speed as survivor.
I used a stop watch. It took 15 seconds for me to reach the main building from the point where the survivor blocked me on the wrong side of the pallet.
It took 4.5 seconds for me to clear the same distance as the Ghoul. Which means I had plenty of time to finish the enrage animation and break the pallet and still grapple on top of them and cancel power to M1.
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Played as the Ghoul today. Not my first time, though I am yet to lose as him yet, or even get less than a 4k. In fact on my first game I adepted him without even really understanding how to play him yet. But I digress.
I need to borrow this birds eye view of the map I found on google to display how absolutely ridiculous this killer is.
Got completely outplayed by a survivor at 9. I got stuck in the enrage animation after hitting them with power but not pulling myself over a dropped pallet. I am currently on the left side of the pallet. The survivor has the entire map to run to.
While I'm stuck in the enrage, he blinds me and runs towards main building. I decide to kick the pallet, because he's running double blind duration addons, so the blind lasts a long time and I can't see where he's going.
As almost any other killer in the game, assuming they could get stuck in an animation like the Ghoul does, I just lost this chase. I not only had to recover from the enrage animation, I also had to finish the pallet break, while he has free reign to just hold W. The amount of time it would take me as almost anyone else just to catch up to him would give his allies a ton of gen time, and he would certainly make it inside the building, where he could use Temple of Purgation's windows to try to stall me further.
He doesn't even make it inside the building.
As soon as I'm out of the kick animation, I grapple towards him and cut him off before he could even get inside and down him.
He outplayed me hard and it didn't matter at all. He still died seconds later.
This is not okay.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904317#Comment_3904317
The entire game is dependent on map RNG. That's not something you can hold against the new killer. Yes, your build is perfectly suited to play against him. You want to reach strong, reliable areas and Sprint Burst and MFT help you do that (MFT also helps you loop more consistently with the bonus movement speed after he hits you with his power)
Every single killer in the game other than Nurse suffers from high pallet density maps, this does not justify how strong the Ghoul is.
Sprint Burst will not save you if you get grabbed by their power, since it stops you dead in your tracks and wastes the entire speed boost.
"Just bring MFT" is not a reasonable excuse, since MFT is not that useful against the majority of other killers unless you're doing something like MFT/WGLF to punish sluggers. As someone who actually ran that build for months ever since the slugging video dropped, I had to really try to get value out of it against killers who were playing normally.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904135#Comment_3904135
I'd rather Kaneki be his current design (needing to intelligently slide to cut off/block paths to get downs) rather than what you're proposing. Kaneki puts a unique spin on being an M2/M1 killer. It's also fine for there to be a killer that punishes holding W.
He's fine as-is.
I'm fine with a killer that punishes holding W, my problem is that he can make it impossible just to get to a tile.
Compare him to, for example, Singularity.
Singularity can also close large distances and get right up on top of the survivor.
However, Singularity needs to work really hard to be able to do this. He has to place cameras, tag you, maintain consistent line of sight for him to be able to teleport to you. He also has to worry about EMPs messing with his power. And his reward for doing all of this is that he teleports behind you, and you get enough space that you should be able to make it to a tile unless you're in a truly enormous deadzone.
The Ghoul just injures you for free (which isn't a problem in itself) and after that he can cut you off and cancel power to M1 you if you're trying to reach a tile to start looping him at. Like not aggressively holding W, just trying to reach the nearest tile. If there are multiple pallets in close proximity, then this isn't an issue, but if there's not then he's really oppressive.
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@OmegaXII said:
Actually, the thing you described is just how he is supposed to be played. Aiming directly at survivors after they're injured literally does nothing but slowing down the killer a lot.
It's like Blight where you have to bounce before attack. It's the design.
Imagine Blight can't down Survivors, while at the same time he's stunned when you hit injured Survivor. That'll kill this killer for sure.
He would still have possibly the best map mobility in the entire game, plus free injuries, plus the ability to close the distance instantly regardless of how far a survivor ran. He completely nullifies most exhaustion perks since, they're all based around making distance with the exception of Head On and Background Player. He doesn't care about Sprint Burst, he doesn't care about Lithe, he completely shuts down Overcome, he eliminates the distance aspect of successful Dead Hards.
He'll still force survivors to have to play tiles instead of trying to buy time by holding W, which is something most killers, even good ones, struggle with. And that's a good thing, since pre-dropping and holding W is probably one of the most boring and frustrating things to play against in the game.
He can even still use power to vault windows quickly and even vault downed pallets, which is situationally useful.
The only thing he would no longer be able to do is glide past you to the tile you're trying to run to so you can try to loop him, cancel power, and then M1 you. That's what puts him over the edge, in my opinion. It eliminates the only counterplay he actually has. At the moment, unless two tiles are directly next to each other, the moment the pallet goes down, he wins the chase. The survivor will not make it to another loop.
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So what just happened to me basically sums up my only real problem with this killer.
Map was the Pale Rose. I successfully played the tile under the pier and dropped a pallet and blocked the killer off.
However, there were no tiles between the pier and the boat. But I just bought myself a lot of space to reach the boat and continue the chase.
I run to the boat as the Ghoul breaks the pallet. However, I can't reach the boat, because they use their power, intentionally miss me, and then end up next to me. Despite the fact they missed, their movement speed while recovering and time until they can M1 is such that there is literally nothing I can do.
Like, I hate survivors who just hold W, but that's just ridiculous. I don't even know if Blight could have downed me in that situation. Successfully mindgaming and blocking off a killer only earned me enough time for the killer to break the pallet, and then I was dead.
If the Ghoul couldn't just intentionally miss you with power and cancel it to M1 you, I would actually think they're a very fun killer to play against.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903831#Comment_3903831
Its usually because it takes time for people to learn how to play against a killer and as a killer. Rather than immediately nerfing something a week after i comes out, give it some time to marinate and see how things go. Once people start learning, then changes can be made as needed.
I come from an era of gaming where you just dealt with the fact that magneto was the best character in MvC2 and you figured out how to beat him, rather than calling for nerfs right away.
The killer has not even been out for a day, people are still figuring stuff out. Give it some time.
No you didn't, because I came from that same era, and I know damn well that you either had to use characters just as busted as him, or peer pressure them into playing someone weaker.
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In theory, I really liked the idea of a killer who incentivizes you to play tiles instead of trying to hold W.
In practice, if he sees you and you're not immediately next to something you can start looping, you just die.
Also, the most tilting thing in the entire game to me is Wraith cutting you off at a window or pallet, and that's the Ghoul's entire method of getting downs. So I find him particularly annoying.
I see people compare him to Wesker, but Wesker is 10x more fun. Wesker's rush is a skill shot that he's punished for missing, the Ghoul doesn't miss.
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I swapped back to the normal mode on killer, and consistently encountered survivors who had no idea what to do in chase, or survivors who were more interested in having interesting chases than they were in just winning.
It's like all the casual players are in the normal mode.
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I do not encounter tunneling or camping anywhere near as common in the main game mode. In fact I got fed up with chaos shuffle last night and switched, and not a single killer did either.
Swap back to chaos shuffle today and it was 3 back-to-back games.
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@Nazzzak said:
That's the hard thing about PTB when a new killer is released - everyone wants to play against the new killer, not an old one. Even if the old one has some changes they're still not as enticing as a new killer. Best bet would be to do custom games against bots to test out Xenos changes.
Problem is that only the flamer turret changes are flat-on-their-face bad. Everyone agrees its bad, I will be floored if they let it come to live like this, and if they do I will be doubly surprised if it stays like this forever.
The more interesting part is the tail attack change. I think there is merit to the idea of making it slightly more telegraphed while lowering the punishment for missing it. That's only something I can test against humans.
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A considerable amount of the killer's power being held up by a glitch which only PC players can pull off was not a good idea. And even among PC players, it was only really usable by people who put a lot of time and effort into playing this one killer.
I'm glad they're fixing it so they can potentially buff him if he starts underperforming.
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The game is basically as balanced as it can be. It's an asymmetric, 1v4 game.
Nurses and Blights who are trying to win > SWFs who are trying to win > Killers who are trying to win > Casual SWFs > Casual Killers > Solo Queue
This is basically how the game has to be balanced. With the exception of Nurse and Blight, but Nurse at least is unfixable without making her an entirely new character and pissing off the people who enjoy playing her.
Killers need to be a little stronger on average than survivors. If the game wasn't slightly weighted in their favor, it would be an unapproachable role for all but the most dedicated players.
Conversely, survivors should have an edge when they're communicating well and bringing all of the best perks and items. If they didn't, then solo queue players would almost never win.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893388#Comment_3893388
I've never been held hostage as a survivor by a killer boxing me in a corner and going AFK. But just because that's a rare thing to happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen and shouldn't be addressed. BHVR is rightly taking actions to ensure it won't happen anymore.
I agree. Never said anything otherwise. I said its not the pressing issue you're making it out to be with your whole 2 experiences. Of course it should be addressed. But there's much more pressing issues to fix, and this just screws up their already contemptible work flow with decision making.
There's a reason this is addressing "extreme hiding" which is the kind of situation I was stuck in on that Pale Rose match. Playing stealthy is a part of the game and a valid playstyle, but you should still be trying to win the match.
Agreed. Did you feel the need to write this? I feel you're assuming a LOT about my intentions and trying to make it as vile as you can.
What about a survivor spawning in with no intention to do anything but hide and let their allies die so they can get hatch? That's a thing that happens occasionally and it falls under the same category.
The same thing as a killer who spawns in with the intention of ruining the game for survivors: play how you want. If hiding is all they're gonna do, you probably get a 3k by default. This is not me saying this behavior is 'okay', but I also dont think tunneling out the gate is okay behavior, yet its defended.
Feels like another 'Its okay for some, but not all' BS. And Im not about it. If survivors want to hide all match and screw the team, its both advertised and allowed. Legit strat. [Insert whatever else has been said about other valid but vile playstyles.]
I wasn't trying to make anything you said vile, in fact I thought you were concerned about something legitimate and you misunderstood what I was saying, which is stealth being made less of a valid playstyle. I thought you were worried that in trying to address a rare situation, they would end up punishing players who are not trying to be malicious. I was just making a distinction between playing stealthy and trying to troll the killer and/or your own team.
I assumed that when you said I was "jumping on the bandwagon" I was trying to imply that stealth shouldn't be in the game, since you seemed concerned about hiding. I know that a lot of people are mad that stealth has become harder due to powerful aura perks like Nowhere To Hide and the nerfing of Distortion, and I thought that's what you were trying to defend.
The fact is that I actually have been stuck in 30+ minute long matches on two separate occasions because of survivors doing what would qualify as "extreme hiding" - aka, not attempting to progress the game state at all. I would very much like that to not be incentivized by rewarding survivors who frustrate a killer into surrendering with a win. I do not think that is a fair or reasonable course of action.
I do not think it counts as jumping on a bandwagon when I have been subjected to this situation twice and I don't want it to happen again.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893377#Comment_3893377
I can only go by what you wrote, and there are certainly people who would hold to exactly that definition.
It didn't help you though, that you've said twice now that's not what you meant, but despite me asking several times for clarification, you haven't given any further indication of what you mean.
I even narrowed it down to one specific example for you to give any context for, and you continue to just ignore conversation or discussion and just be defensive.
If you don't actually have any further clarification, then I'm done here. But, for the record, the absurd viewpoint that you wrote verbatim is the only thing anyone has to go by. If that's not correct, you've declined any of my attempts to get more nuance out if it. That's not my fault.
I have clarified twice now. I don't know what else to say.
"Meaningful actions to progress the game"
Do you think standing on the edges of the map and dropping and picking up your item repeatedly should ward off AFK crows?
How about this: if you have spent 10 minutes in the match without touching a generator, being on hook, or getting chased by the killer, you should probably get AFK crows. There is absolutely no reason why that length of time should have gone by without you doing one of those actions unless you are hiding with malicious intent, either to screw over your allies or to just waste the killer's time.
That seems a lot more reasonable to me than to tell the killer who's stuck with you that they can leave the match without a penalty. They should still present that option though in the event that the reason it's happening is because of a hacker.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892753#Comment_3892753
Is this really a pandemic level issue? Genuinely asking because like the distortion reasoning, it just feels like BS.
"This situation has only happened to me 2 times in my almost 4000 hours, but still."
Only twice in 4k hours? The horror. You couldn't help jumping on the bandwagon huh lol. Its not a real issue the likes killers are claiming. BHVR, I am sure, knows this is data. It's being addressed because per usual, enough complaining has come forth. But it is not anywhere near the level of problem many, many other issues are. Its insane people are pushing this. Is there really nothing else? Survivors hiding is the biggest killer issue? I thought it was 'go next' or 'SWF'. Im so confused.
I've never been held hostage as a survivor by a killer boxing me in a corner and going AFK. But just because that's a rare thing to happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen and shouldn't be addressed. BHVR is rightly taking actions to ensure it won't happen anymore.
There's a reason this is addressing "extreme hiding" which is the kind of situation I was stuck in on that Pale Rose match. Playing stealthy is a part of the game and a valid playstyle, but you should still be trying to win the match.
What about a survivor spawning in with no intention to do anything but hide and let their allies die so they can get hatch? That's a thing that happens occasionally and it falls under the same category.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893079#Comment_3893079
It's not bad faith, it's taking exactly what you wrote. You deliberately said "gen progress", not "advancing the game". So all of those points would have to be special exceptions in this system, at least as you described it.
I even said at the bottom, you could ignore all of that and it's still a bad idea.
If you genuinely want a discussion (which I'm not sure you do, since you simply dismissed everything, and didn't try to rebut a single point) then please explain how this should work around the "slug for the 4k" problem. And to be clear, that's 4 minutes waiting for your teammate to bleed out, a minute or so of hatch searching, and 2 minutes of EGC that is legitimate hiding, in the killers control, but would identify the survivor unfairly with something like what you described.
So tell me, since nothing you've said explains this, how does your system of "didn't complete a gen recently" deal with this situation fairly for the survivor? Because it sounds like the survivors position gets revealed either way and killer gets a 4k every time.
Hiding is genuinely legitimate gameplay, situationally. Similar to camping, tunneling, and slugging, it's perfectly fine in limited doses, but it's the excessive use of any of those, including hiding, that becomes a problem.
I'm not going to refute your points because I don't disagree with anything you said, because you're making an actual strawman argument. I wrote that post off the cuff because the main thing I was trying to say is that dropping and picking up your item repeatedly wards off AFK crows, which is the main thing survivors could do to abuse the new 10 minute surrender thing.
But you're arguing against the specific wording I used instead of the spirit of what I was saying, which is that only meaningful actions to advance the game should ward off AFK crows.
Do you seriously think I was trying to argue that survivors should get AFK crows for healing or being on the hook? I'm not insane.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892753#Comment_3892753
They deleted distortion, for exactly this problem, and have given killers 8346572 aura reading perks, abilities, and add-ons.
While I know that "anti hiding" is planned already, I genuinely feel that "finding survivors" is a fundamental killer skill. You can genuinely find people without aura reads at all, if you use game sense and are even vaguely aware of your surroundings.
A huge portion of these "I can't find survivors who are hiding from me" result in "oh, apparently they were in the basement and I didn't think to check there for some reason".
The hiding they need to address isn't the sort of thing aura reading can help you with.
I got held hostage for 40 minutes once in Pale Rose by two survivors who realized they could no longer win the match (both on death hook). They never touched a generator or did anything. They just hid in the outskirts around the edges of the map and woke each other up repeatedly (I was Freddy) in hopes that I would get frustrated and DC.
I did absolutely nothing to "deserve" this. I didn't camp, slug, tunnel. I was on pre-rework Freddy so I wasn't playing an OP killer. Surge was my only regression perk.
This situation has only happened to me 2 times in my almost 4000 hours, but still.
Scott Jund has a video displaying this kind of behavior called "The Pettiest Game I've Ever Played" where the entire survivor squad spawned in only trying to hide and not progress the game state.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892786#Comment_3892786
They just needed to change the AFK crow logic so that only working on a generator resets the timer.
To put it politely, you haven't considered any of the ramifications of this.
Here are some scenarios that would cause the AFK crows to trigger, many of which are outside the survivor's control entirely:
- Being in chase.
- Being on hook.
- Being slugged.
- Recovering in any way (healing, unhooking, mending…)
- Interacting with the killer's power.
- Hiding while the killer slugs for the 4k (at least 4 minutes while your 3rd teammate bleeds out).
- Completing a tome challenge.
- Reaching end game.
- Many, many others (flashlight saves, blessing/cleansing totems, being held hostage in the corner by the killer, etc.)
Basically, this just notifies the killer if a survivor exists.
Let's say we ignore all of that, and just take your suggestion at face value. In that case, what's the only thing that matters in every match? Gen rushing. Gen rush every game or literally be penalized for it.
Distilling it down as much as this is absolutely absurd.
I'm sorry, I forgot I'm on the internet and people will take the most bad faith interpretation humanly possible to a general statement you made.
"Aha, you said that the survivor should need to make meaningful progress towards the game state instead of sitting in a corner and dropping their item repeatedly in order to get rid of crows. Clearly this means you think that survivors should accumulate crows for being on the hook or healing."
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@Pulsar said:
The other changes are good, but I am genuinely not convinced that the flame turret changes aren't a typo due to how ridiculous they are. Maybe they missed a decimal somewhere.
1.5s for delay and 20/s for dissipation rate seem better?
[CHANGE]Increased tail attack charge time to .35 seconds(was .2)[CHANGE]Increased tail attack charge sound volume for survivors[CHANGE]Reduced missed attack cooldown time to 2.5 seconds(was 3)[CHANGE]Increased the Killer Instinct range when exiting a tunnel to 16m(was 12m)[CHANGE]Decreased the time it takes to get out of a tunnel to 1.5 second(was 2.25)[CHANGE]Increased amount of fire needed to burn The Xenomorph out of crawler mode to 175(was 100)[CHANGE]Increased delay before the Xenomorph’s heat starts to dissipate to 15s(was 1)[CHANGE]Decreased the Xenomorph’s heat dissipation rate to 2/s(was 25)[CHANGE]Adjusted several Add-Ons to align with these changes.
If it's a typo, then it's a typo. Until we confirm otherwise, then we need to treat it like these are the actual changes that are going forward.
I think there is more evidence to suggest it's not a typo than there is. The amount of resistance the Xeno will have to flamer turrets will be stronger basekit than it is currently with the Emergency Helmet.
I don't think there's any way they give it that much resistance to being burned out of its power unless they really do intend to go through with the numbers as we currently see them.
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Please listen to this guy, BHVR. He wrote an entire exhaustive guide on how to play Xenomorph. Even Otzdarva gave him a shout out for being the go-to guy for learning how to play Xenomorph.