Zakon05
Zakon05
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Did you know that This Is Not Happening's great skill check bonus is active right now? Since they didn't actually buff that part of it, they buffed the availability of it (don't need to be injured) and the normal success zone size.
Go try to use it with Hyperfocus. Equip No Mither even so you can start the trial with the bonus.
There's a reason nobody does this combo and it's not just because Stake Out exists. The sheer number of people who don't even realize they didn't buff the great success zone portion of the perk shows that. It just doesn't make that big of an impact. 30% sounds like a big number, but 30% of something small is also small.
In case it's not clear: this is WITH the 30% size increase applied.
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The biggest current problem with the STB is:
A survivor just follows behind the killer that carrying survivor, waits for killer to complete the hooking action, and then directly use STB. No killer can do anything to stop it.
No, the biggest problem with STB is when multiple survivors can use it to shuffle hook states around and keep anyone from being on death hook.
The scenario you just described just creates a new death hook survivor, as the killer can now immediately down and hook the Shoulder user.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118491#Comment_4118491
Lmao, bro can't read and actually trying to play it off.
What you said was the equivalent of saying "Secret Project is a problem because if it's broken on even one killer like Ghost Face then it needs a rework or a massive nerf."
Come on.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118399#Comment_4118399
Please try reading my comment before replying. This is just embarrassing. The point was that if it's too strong on any killer that means that the perk is too strong and needs to be nerfed. It's why I said killers like ghoul, key word being like.
I'm doubting this was your intention, to be totally honest. Because you could have listed a character this perk is actually good on like Artist.
So either you actually thought it's good on Ghoul or you don't even know a killer it is good on.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118458#Comment_4118458
gotta love the classic "You're inferior to my understanding" rebuttal to a conversation. I've played the game for years, nobody on the forums is just brand new to DBD. Survivors are beating you with counterplay. I'm getting sick and tired of the weird double standard that it's only fair when killers can do things that inconvenience the survivor and not vice versa. Survivors are supposed to set you back, StB Is not removing progress from the killer, it's distributing it amongst survivors, that's a fundamentally different thing.
This is why I made that post today regarding perk changes not changing the "meta" of DBD. so long as camping and tunneling are prevalent in DBD as valid strategies, then it's equally valid for survivors to have valid recourse. if you don't like that tradeoff of design, then join the party of people vehemently against these design choices.
Right now, Tunneling is extremely viable and also encouraged, with these perk changes, survivors are encouraged to "suck it up" and have no agency to respond.
regarding BT, BHVR making copycat perks with powercreep is irrelevant to them totally ruining the older version of that perk. maybe if they expanded the core gameplay they'd have more to design perks around.You're talking about it as if killers must 8 hook before they can start killing anybody. This is completely unrealistic, usually only happens if the killer is going out of their way to do it because there is a massive skill discrepancy.
A survivor being on death hook must play differently, take less risks, play more cautiously, work on safer and less exposed generators. This is a massive boon to the killer even when they aren't tunneling that person out. Moving a survivor from 2 hook states to 1 without also moving the other survivor to 2 hook states is an enormous gut punch to killer pressure. And that would be fine if it could only be used when the killer is tunneling, but it can be used when they aren't tunneling and it's an even bigger gut punch in that situation than in the one it was created to counter. That's the problem.
I spent the rest of the post explaining the fact Babysitter is just better than Borrowed Time, and ended it off by saying BT should be buffed somehow and keep its current effect. So clearly I don't have a problem with survivors having nice things or inconveniencing the killer.
Also BHVR didn't "create a new perk that powercrept Borrowed Time." The fact you think this once again tells me you are new, despite what you say.
Borrowed Time was once a basically mandatory perk for all survivors to bring, and during that time, Babysitter existed alongside it and was much weaker than it is now. Borrowed Time's effect got implemented into being basekit, and then Babysitter got buffed, which created the question of why you should ever bring BT over Babysitter.
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@DodoSwarm said:
I am also very annoyed that Altruism is being heavily discouraged for regular players. StB and for that matter BT both encourage players to help their teammates and allowed survivors create situations which could surprise the killer and put them at a momentary disadvantage by way of countering strategy. seeing both of them gutted alongside Knockout really gives the impression BHVR is removing counterplay as a viable option for survivor gameplay.
StB Already had a major downside for the user, it gives them the hookstate of the person they use the perk on. first of all, It doesn't remove progress from the killer at all, it's not vanishing a hookstate, It's giving it to someone else. If anything StB is a cool example of how Survivor perks can have tangible effects in the future without being in the Exhaustion or Stun Perk categories. a sort of offensive altruism that was a healthy idea. yes, StB can be very powerful, believe it or not people want perks to have a potential for a memorable moment in a game. Perks are the only expression survivor has. If Tunneling is a valid strategy, and Slugging is a valid strategy then why is it "unfair" or "too powerful" for a survivor to take extra risk on themselves to save a teammate from being on death hook?
SP/BT/StB/Vigil getting seriously nerfed in very quick succession really gives the impression that BHVR wants survivors, especially solo queue survivors to play for themselves and not as a team.I mean even basekit BT was decreased by 1/3 of its value to discourage players taking hits for eachother off of hook. that's altruism lol… I don't know why the idea seems to be "prevent survivors from helping eachother"… I think that overall precedent is extremely bad in and of itself
Like if you look at the dev note for the nerf on SP it's so insanely unaware:Dev Note: We know that Elusive can be a strong status effect. Several Self Preservations in a lobby can have the unintended effect of the Killer returning back to hook more often. We're reducing the numbers here quite a bit, but are keeping a close eye on this perk.
How on earth does this even make sense? The killer is going to return to the hook regardless. BT doesn't exist anymore, Basekit Endurance down 5 seconds, Elusive on Unhook means its even more important for tunneling killers to be nearby to actually see where the survivor goes. "the fact the killer can't see you when they hook someone means they are going to tunnel" killers are tunneling anyway, and SP was used to safely get to the hook without being seen. "Several Self Preservations" okay…? How often are Several Self Preservations seen in a match? about never? and when they are seen how would diminishing the timer change the outcome of a killer returning to a hook as opposed to if they could see you running to get the unhook?StB does remove progress from the killer. It can transfer a hook stage from someone who is on death hook to someone who has no hook states. The problem is when you use it like this when no one is being tunneled. If you don't understand how important it is to have a survivor on death hook even when not tunneling then I legitimately don't know what to say to you, you don't have enough understanding of the game yet and you probably need to play more killer - a lot more killer, so that you can get a high enough MMR to go against teams who know how to coordinate multiple StBs.
Borrowed Time's problem currently is that Babysitter just mostly does its job better. Babysitter provides a longer haste boost, strengthens the initial haste boost, and removes scratch marks and pools of blood. And it lets the unhooker see the killer's aura as a bonus, so they know whether it's safe to heal under hook or if they need to warn the unhooked person if the killer is coming back to hook.
I don't know if Babysitter is still a perk available to all survivors or not as I owned Steve before his initial removal and had him at Prestige 3 already when he came back. If it still counts as a generic perk and not a licensed perk, then it even has an edge over BT in terms of availability because you don't even need to prestige Bill to get it.
The times where BT is a better altruistic anti-tunnel perk than Babysitter are very rare and situational, mostly owing to extending the endurance by 10 seconds. It needs to be the very specific situation of the survivor being hooked in a large deadzone against a tunneling killer who can stay on top of them for 10 seconds. Mainly this just counters a tunneling Deathslinger, as they will sometimes spear an unhooked survivor and count down the endurance.
I think that BT should have its current effect buffed rather than being reworked into this new weird and very situational Dead Hard partner perk.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117638#Comment_4117638
Got you. Tbf I haven't played against many STB as it's very selfless perk. I understand the frustrations of it but imagine those scenarios happen on both sides.
Scenario 1:
4 gens are done, last is about to pop.
Survivor ABC are one hook from death, survivor D is carried to the hook while survivor don't know pain res wasn't used on him yet. Boom 99 % gen to 79 % into DMS into high mobility killer into slug injured survivor who tried to finish the gen over healing themselves into pushing another survivor and boom. What couldve been 2 out is 4k.
Scenario 2:
You are chased against killer who has endfury charged up, you don't know they have it. The hit you and you move to another loop, endfury happens, you are downed as last gen pops you go to basement, two other survivors have to leave because they can't save you. First hook to die because you got "outplayed".
Scenario 3:
You try to hide near almost completed gen and manage to get very good hiding spot where you slowly move around to avoid killer's vision. Killer can't find you, they kick gen, have nowhere to hide and find you.
Just reminder that those are not only survivors who have powerfull tools without much counterplay. While I still lean towards killer side I absolutely hate any additional weaknesses to antitunnel.
Pain Res requires the killer to get unique hooks. The only unhealthy thing about it was the synergy with DMS, which is being nerfed this patch. You should not be complaining about Pain Res. The game needs more incentives for killers to hook, the number of people who got sick of having to deal with all of the survivor perks which activate from hooking LIKE SHOULDER is what led to the obnoxious slug-only playstyle with Coulrophobia.
Spirit Fury/Enduring requires the killer to sacrifice half their build (the equivalent to survivors giving up 8 perks) to get one cheesy down. If the survivors are on coms then they get it to work exactly 1 time before every single survivor in the lobby begins pre-dropping. It's not meta at all, it's a casual goof around combo. The fact you're complaining about this at all means you don't play on the level where you know what you're talking about, I'm sorry.
Nowhere to Hide is indeed a very strong perk and I'm still surprised it's in the game, but forcing survivors to stop hiding isn't anywhere near as powerful as survivors shuffling hook states.
You clearly only think about the game in terms of the 1v1 between you and the killer. The game isn't a 1v1. I know it's annoying when you get downed easily, but that's why you're on the team role and you're able to absorb multiple hooks. If the killer kills YOU and your allies escape, THEY STILL LOSE.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118236#Comment_4118236
Man I can hear the point going over your head right now.
What point? Your point was that it's broken on Ghoul and therefore it must be nerfed. It's pointless on Ghoul.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118036#Comment_4118036
The issue being that even one killer like ghoul who can use this automatically means the perk needs a total rework or massive nerf. Since all perks are available to all killers it being broken on one killer means the perk is broken and needs to be changed.
How is this perk broken on Ghoul? This perk is borderline useless for Ghoul. He can use it to occasionally jump over a god pallet of which I can think of like 2 in the entire game where he can use this.
Ghoul's specialty is countering people trying to hold W. This is an anti-hold W perk. The counter to Ghoul is to play pallets and tiles and avoid playing for distance.
This is a perk for someone like Artist, Chucky, Xenomorph who actually does struggle with survivors pre-dropping and trying to play for distance. These killers are the total opposite of Ghoul, where they are very strong in a tile but don't have a meaningful way of closing the distance on people.
Also Spookyloopz released a video testing all the new killer perk changes today and trying to see which ones are strong, and he couldn't get Knock Out to get value at all. It's a pretty great video to display how limited this perk is in a realistic context despite how good it looks on paper.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118036#Comment_4118036
For Bubba: If you vault the window and begin pre-revving your chainsaw, the survivor is going to vault back into shack and keep moving. Even with Bubba's fast pallet break I think the survivor gets enough distance to reach something else due to the density of pallets these days. Also I don't think the perk is very good on him in general (despite it being his perk) as he is so good at sawing through pallets that taking it specifically to try to outplay one specific tile which may not be in the map just isn't a good idea.
The fact that Bubba IS good at sawing through pallets is what I am talking about, you have to understand that when you're playing in anything other than brand new player MMR everyone knows Bubba chews up pallets, that's why people are so inclined to drop them and… leave if they do that, they are immediately caught with the new knockout. it removes the entire point of smaller pallets being a mindgame.
For Myers: You're dead after dropping shack pallet in most circumstances anyway. A lot of shacks are pushed up against the corners of the map with the pallet side facing towards the edge map. If you reach the pallet Myers will try to charge Slaughtering Strike, break it, and then run you down and kill you, all of these shenanigans with Bamboozle and Knock Out are pointless. Myers is a 1v1 beast and it's why playing against him is so unpleasant these days.
That's even more of a reason that this perk change is a problem. if you're usually dead, with new Knockout you're definitely dead. and if you DO get the stun on him, you are even less rewarded on distance which is extremely important. Holding W is a practice BHVR created with their own Map and Killer Design, KO will turn hold W situations into Lose Lose situations for survivors. it's damned if I do and damned if I don't around like the most central PvP element in the game. "if I stay at this pallet I am definitely getting hit around it so I have to leave" is met with [20% hindered] for FIVE SECONDS Sprint burst is only 2 seconds. and even when it was properly balanced at 3 seconds a 20% Hinder will be present for nearly twice as long. this also greatly diminishes Smash Hit and Lithe as options for making distance on the other side of a pallet.
For Blight and Ghoul: If you're trying to play for distance versus these two then you're playing wrong anyway. Even without Knock Out you have to stay at whatever pallet you just dropped until the killer breaks it because you will not make it to a different tile without the killer breaking the pallet to put their power on cooldown. Even then there has to be something else within a few feet or they'll catch up with power and hit you. I do not see Blight especially ever running this perk.
gaining distance to get to the next loop/pallet is the core gameplay in DBD, you're not playing wrong for seeking that out lol that's ridiculous. I am talking specifically about unsafe pallets, of which there are a LOT. if you drop some of them without 5 moves ahead, it's entirely possible to get hit by the killer before you can even move again, and if not then, immediately afterwards, if you then run away from the pallet towards the next one, you will get 20% hindered for 5 seconds which is outrageous.
You don't play pallets versus Nurse except out of desperation, you try to break LoS and confuse her. If you ever drop a pallet versus Nurse it's because you have literally no other option and you're trying to stun her to buy a couple more seconds. Once she recovers from the stun she hits you regardless. No Nurse is ever going to run a perk which triggers off of survivors dropping pallets because it's completely pointless.
in high MMR? no… they aren't going to drop pallets to get away from a nurse, in Medium and low MMR? they absolutely are, I play the Nurse in 2v8 and people will genuinely drop a pallet for anything (I Know 2v8 is not a fair estimation of how 1v4 games play out, the point is that 2v8 has no MMR and lower MMR survs will drop pallets right away) so that's another problem of its own… disproportionately effecting mid-low MMR. Ranged killers fall into this same category.
there are other things that weren't clarified that could be extremely problematic as well KO + Spirit Fury / Dissolution come to mind first. AFAIK Dissolution did not work with KO but I am unsure about Spirit Fury, and even if they don't either of those two perks together totally counters looping pallets. if you try to stun the killer you get the eventual spirit fury, if you try to pre drop and stay at the pallet because of KO, there's a likely Dissolution in your future.The fact that Bubba IS good at sawing through pallets is what I am talking about, you have to understand that when you're playing in anything other than brand new player MMR everyone knows Bubba chews up pallets, that's why people are so inclined to drop them and… leave if they do that, they are immediately caught with the new knockout. it removes the entire point of smaller pallets being a mindgame.
People leave the pallet versus him because he's already swinging his chainsaw and is about to saw through the pallet, in which case Knock Out will not trigger as he destroyed the pallet. It's pretty hard for Bubba to get hits at dropped pallets except at extremely unsafe 50/50s. He's better at chewing through map resources and creating deadzones.
Also, he's, like… one of the weakest killers in the game, I don't really know why we're handwringing over concern that he might be slightly less bad. He has no map mobility or pressure, he can only create pressure by getting fast downs.
That's even more of a reason that this perk change is a problem. if you're usually dead, with new Knockout you're definitely dead. and if you DO get the stun on him, you are even less rewarded on distance which is extremely important. Holding W is a practice BHVR created with their own Map and Killer Design, KO will turn hold W situations into Lose Lose situations for survivors. it's damned if I do and damned if I don't around like the most central PvP element in the game. "if I stay at this pallet I am definitely getting hit around it so I have to leave" is met with [20% hindered] for FIVE SECONDS Sprint burst is only 2 seconds. and even when it was properly balanced at 3 seconds a 20% Hinder will be present for nearly twice as long. this also greatly diminishes Smash Hit and Lithe as options for making distance on the other side of a pallet.
Again, the perk doesn't work if the killer breaks the pallet, and the perk doesn't trigger until you move 10 meters away from the dropped pallet. For a size comparison that is the radius of a Skull Merchant drone's scan area. If it's an unsafe 50/50 then not much changes, you either have something else to run to right next to it or you die anyway, same as on live, assuming Myers didn't use how insanely strong Slaughtering Strike is against 50/50 pallets to just down you immediately. If it's a strong pallet then you can still play that versus Myers. If it's a god pallet and you stunned him out of Slaughtering Strike, he's already mashing the break pallet button during the stun animation.
gaining distance to get to the next loop/pallet is the core gameplay in DBD, you're not playing wrong for seeking that out lol that's ridiculous.
Welcome to Blight and Ghoul. You play the pallet, doesn't matter how bad it is. Trying to run won't help you. You have to make them break the pallet.
I am talking specifically about unsafe pallets, of which there are a LOT. if you drop some of them without 5 moves ahead, it's entirely possible to get hit by the killer before you can even move again, and if not then, immediately afterwards, if you then run away from the pallet towards the next one, you will get 20% hindered for 5 seconds which is outrageous.
You're better off trying to greed these pallets in a lot of situations and hope the killer respects. You're going to get hit at 50/50s a lot of the time no matter what. They're bad pallets which you use if you have literally nothing else. If you're healthy and get hit, you use that speed burst to hopefully make it to something else before the Blight or Ghoul catches right back up to you anyway, doesn't matter if they have Knock Out or not. I don't know why either of these killers would ever run a perk designed to make it harder for survivors to play for distance when they don't care about survivors playing for distance.
In high MMR? no… they aren't going to drop pallets to get away from a nurse, in Medium and low MMR? they absolutely are,
…it's Nurse versus medium and low MMR survivors. She wins unless she's bad at Nurse. She's not going to run a perk that counters a map resource she doesn't care about to begin with and especially not to try to counter survivors she's going to beat without it anyway. It'd be like running Bamboozle on her, it just doesn't matter.
there are other things that weren't clarified that could be extremely problematic as well KO + Spirit Fury / Dissolution come to mind first. AFAIK Dissolution did not work with KO but I am unsure about Spirit Fury, and even if they don't either of those two perks together totally counters looping pallets. if you try to stun the killer you get the eventual spirit fury, if you try to pre drop and stay at the pallet because of KO, there's a likely Dissolution in your future.
If the pallet breaks, you don't get the Knock Out hinder. Period, the end, doesn't matter how the pallet breaks. Also you're devoting 3/4 of your perks at that point to chase perks, I would really hope that you're oppressive in the 1v1 at that point. And Dissolution just got nerfed in this same PTB to only trigger from basic attacks.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118024#Comment_4118024
You gotta read what I say before replying…
"it takes very little time to chainsaw a pallet" you already don't want to drop a pallet and be on the inside of shack most of the time because rather than trapping the killer in, you're trapping yourself in. if the window is bamboozled, and I chainsaw the pallet, you won't be out of the door before I am behind you. and remember this is the Strongest example. Knockout doesn't even help the killer on true god pallets, it makes already weak pallets outright unplayable…
I'm using Bubba in examples because I play him and Know I could easily get a free kill at shack with KO + Bamboozle but what about myers? it takes him even less time to shred that pallet, if you get trapped in shack with a bamboozled window because you're trying to avoid Knockout you're dead…
What about The Blight? the point of specifically trapping blight in the shack is because it's hard for blight players to gain on you without breaking the pallet but by that time you have time to run away from shack and get to a resource, in the case of Knockout you can't leave shack. or the worse scenario, what about blight on a filler pallet? you already have to leave because if the blight hits you around the filler pallet and then uses their power they can run you down even in your movement speed boosted state.
The Nurse? 20% slower movement because you did what you literally have to do and hold W away?
The Ghoul? you pre drop the pallet, they play around it, get their first free hit which is built into their kit, and you run away from the pallet and get a 20% hinder???
By the way the only deactivation constraint is "if you break the pallet" so if you het a survivor who is vaulting as its extremely easy to do on filler pallets, and they do the objectively right thing and use the speed boost for distance they then get 20% hindred for 5 entire seconds? absolutely ridiculous.- For Bubba: If you vault the window and begin pre-revving your chainsaw, the survivor is going to vault back into shack and keep moving. Even with Bubba's fast pallet break I think the survivor gets enough distance to reach something else due to the density of pallets these days. Also I don't think the perk is very good on him in general (despite it being his perk) as he is so good at sawing through pallets that taking it specifically to try to outplay one specific tile which may not be in the map just isn't a good idea.
- For Myers: You're dead after dropping shack pallet in most circumstances anyway. A lot of shacks are pushed up against the corners of the map with the pallet side facing towards the edge map. If you reach the pallet Myers will try to charge Slaughtering Strike, break it, and then run you down and kill you, all of these shenanigans with Bamboozle and Knock Out are pointless. Myers is a 1v1 beast and it's why playing against him is so unpleasant these days.
- For Blight and Ghoul: If you're trying to play for distance versus these two then you're playing wrong anyway. Even without Knock Out you have to stay at whatever pallet you just dropped until the killer breaks it because you will not make it to a different tile without the killer breaking the pallet to put their power on cooldown. Even then there has to be something else within a few feet or they'll catch up with power and hit you. I do not see Blight especially ever running this perk.
- You don't play pallets versus Nurse except out of desperation, you try to break LoS and confuse her. If you ever drop a pallet versus Nurse it's because you have literally no other option and you're trying to stun her to buy a couple more seconds. Once she recovers from the stun she hits you regardless. No Nurse is ever going to run a perk which triggers off of survivors dropping pallets because it's completely pointless.
Out of all of the killers you just mentioned, the only one who is likely to run it is Ghoul, as they can use their vaulting power to outplay god pallets like the one in Garden of Joy's house, for example.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117816#Comment_4117816
I Didn't misunderstand anything.
Pallet Density is Unsafe Pallets, pallets where when you consider ping and various different killer abilities, you pre drop them and run to the next thing ASAP if you don't get the stun. If I am playing Bubba, or Hillbilly I am not breaking that pallet, I am chasing you and you're getting caught. if BHVR wants people to play pallets then they need to stop adding pallets with no room for mindgames or playing potential.
I Specifically used Bamboozle + Knockout in my example for shack, the reason for this is because if you drop it, I will go through the window and keep you at shack, you will run around shack and re-vault the pallet which puts you inside shack with a bamboozled window where Bubba can catch you almost immediately as it takes very little time to chainsaw a pallet, OR you run away from shack and I just vault the window and catch you because 20% hinder is ridiculous.
The entire redesign is just senselessly removing an aspect of counterplay, holding W from a pallet IS valid counterplay and it's reinforced by the amount of killers that have almost guaranteed hits around a lot of these pallets. if BHVR doesn't want people to hold W they need to stop releasing killer powers that encourage people to hold W and fix pallet density so that it provides less pallets overall but more reasonable pallets. why do you think 5 moves ahead is so popular? it's because dropping a pallet without being able to move can outright get you hit around it on a lot of these pallet spawns.
BHVR has to stop punishing players with perk redesigns to make up for their poor game design, that's not how you balance a game.
It's evident in the actual patch notes too, I am not just imagining their sentiment:Dev Note: We want Knock Out to feel impactful in those cases where Survivors don't loop around pallets.
??? Survivors arent looping around pallets because the pallets in question suck. fix the actual game, stop tweaking perks and making the game hell for people trying to play with the nightmare design that already exists.
Why wouldn't the survivor just vault the pallet back into shack if they see you vault the window?
Like that's not even a "the killer has knock out and so I must stay here" thing it's just what the survivor would do if they see you try to outplay shack pallet like this. It's called a god pallet for a reason, you must kick it to resume the chase.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117819#Comment_4117819
Though then they make this is not happening make great skill check zones 30% bigger so.
This Is Not Happening is already 30% bigger on live, the change was that you don't need to be injured and the normal success zone is 200% bigger.
This is what the great skill check zone looks like at 30% larger. It helps but it's not the same thing as Stakeout making it into a guaranteed Great.
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The rationale for why they made this change in the dev notes makes sense for why it was Stakeout which got hit and not Hyperfocus.
Dev Note: Previously Stake Out put a limitation on design space, removing any difficulty from great Skill Checks.
I really appreciate dev notes like this as it makes total sense when you read it. They're not just trying to fix Hyperfocus/Stakeout, they're trying to prevent Stakeout from trivializing any future perks which have Great Skill Check activation requirements. Without doing this, any time they want to make another perk with a strong effect like Hyperfocus, they have to balance it around Stakeout.
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You have a misunderstanding of the new design.
You have to move away from the pallet within 6 seconds to get the 20% hinder.
The killer cannot bloodlust you down during that time, as it takes 15 seconds for them to gain bloodlust 1. Additionally, if the killer is having to bloodlust you down, you're winning the chase regardless. Remember that you're trying to waste the killer's time, not necessarily actually escape the chase.
@DodoSwarm said:
yeah, and the pallet density update literally encourages pre-dropping, on many maps there's a large percentage of pallets that are totally unsafe and with ping always a question + certain killers requiring pre drop anyway BHVR created that practice… even worse the patch notes seem to blame players for the choice to leave pallets after dropping them.
I play Leatherface, I choose to play him without tunneling or camping but it's a fact he's built around tunneling and camping and even though he's one of the lower tier killers if you drop an unsafe pallet against Bubba early and he has Knockout you're dead now, it's just over… it was honestly not hard to catch people with knockout beforehand… it's currently in my perk setup for him… and Bubba is a weaker example. Hillbilly will absolutely catch you and it's not a debate.
Here's an example of a problem though: Almost everyone playing Bubba runs bamboozle… Shack is all of the sudden a "you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it" loop when a bubba has Knockout + Bamboozle and oftentimes that's where the basement is…
It's just needlessly turning what little of a mindgame there was around filler pallets into a lose lose-lose situation for survivor against just about any killer… of course low tier killers will benefit from it but the killers that will benefit the absolute most will be the already movement and map control capable killers
Regardless of any of that a 400% buff on literally anything is outrageous… why would they go straight for 400% not even just double the previous number…You also have a misunderstanding of the perk's design. If the killer breaks the pallet, the hinder doesn't trigger. In the Bubba shack situation, the Bubba has to destroy the pallet to resume the chase, thus it will not trigger Knock Out.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117649#Comment_4117649
But in this scenario, that's the first four hooks, right?
StB user has to have 0, two more have to have one each, and one has to be on death hook. That means the fourth hook is the one shifted this way. If you're at two gens left with only four hooks then you have bigger problems than StB going on and you're already looking at playing for a comeback.
I will grant that very aware teams would be the ones to play slightly differently surrounding someone on death hook, but I don't think StB actually changes that. Instead of shuffling the hook state, they'd just have the fresh survivor get in your face while the death hook survivor plays stealthy.
StB just doesn't do that much here. At best it's one of many resources and options the high calibre teams who use it have for the same overall goal, and more realistically it's changing an early death hook survivor to getting a potentially much stronger perk out of the way early without too much fanfare.
And again, just to be clear: My issue is with this change, not any potential change. This change is a bad one because of the wider context of the precedent it sets.
Having a survivor with 0 hooks try to draw aggro isn't the same thing as the survivors shuffling hook states to ensure no one is on death hook. If you're in a situation like this, you typically do not want to be chasing people who haven't been hooked yet unless you can either catch them very quickly and easily or you have a perk that would activate from hooking a fresh survivor. Like Pain Res, Grim Embrace, etc
Typically what happens in my experience in scenarios without StB is just that survivors who haven't been hooked yet will work on more exposed gens to try to draw aggro while more vulnerable survivors try to avoid getting chased in the first place, even if it means having to play much more passively, which is a lot of slowdown for you.
Incidentally by the way this is probably the most effective thing you can do to protect someone who's getting tunneled. Just work on a gen in the killer's face. I see way too many teams (usually my own solo queue teams while I'm getting tunneled) throw themselves at the killer trying to coerce them to stop chasing the person they're tunneling, even taking whole downs for them. Which just creates more pressure as they get slugged and the team has to pick up the slug now.
But doing a gen in the killer's face is a lot more agitating, might actually make them play worse because of it, and creates a lot more space for your ally if they break off to attack you.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117638#Comment_4117638
Those are the scenarios I can think of where it's used without tunneling, but none of those are particularly crazy powerful outcomes.
Sure, the killer loses the opportunity to potentially get someone out quicker with someone on death hook, but they still gained all the pressure/slowdown from the hooks they're meant to and also still has the same amount of overall objective progression; in the second scenario especially there's no fresh survivor to either take aggro or be the "oh this is the worst chase I could be taking" moment, and everyone is one hook away from imminent danger.
This is use of the perk outside of tunneling, but it is not abuse of the perk.
Of course, I do need to repeat: even if that is abusing and the perk's a huge problem, this specifically is a bad change because it sets a bad precedent.
I absolutely do think these are crazy powerful outcomes, far moreso than its intended effect of trying to avert tunneling. Because, I stress here, the only survivors who can use it like this are the best of the best groups who understand match pace and are trying as hard as they can to win with good communication.
Getting a survivor onto death hook is one of the most important things you can do as a killer. At minimum it changes the way the team has to play. They need to be careful about how they unhook that person, and then the unhooked player has to play much more cautiously, work on safe gens, try to hide and avoid chase more, and not be the one to take a risk like going for an unhook.
Preferably you want it to happen by around the time you have 2 gens left, and against good teams who actually have the coordination to use the perk like this, even getting the three hooks necessary to put someone on death hook without tunneling can be a big ask to do by the time you're down to 2 gens.
If you're up against such a team and StB gets used against you like this, that's it. You lose. What minimal pressure you were exerting by threatening to remove a player from the match if you find them again just got taken away from you.
And it happened because you weren't camping to punish the StB unhook and put the rescuer on death hook instead.
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Even setting aside that it's wholly unnecessary for this perk - multiple uses only even can happen in scenarios that aren't actively throwing is when someone's tunnelled
Let me break down how I see it used - and I'm not exaggerating here - 100% of the time in my own matches.
SCENARIO 1:
Killer hooks survivor A
Killer hooks survivor B
Killer hooks survivor A again.
Killer leaves the hook. Survivor C unhooks survivor A with Shoulder the Burden. Now no one is on death hook and the killer has been punished for not camping.
Killer hooks survivor A, B, or C and then, once again, leaves the hook. Survivor D unhooks with Shoulder the Burden. Now, once again, the killer has been punished for not camping and now also not tunneling.
SCENARIO 2:
Killer hooks survivor A.
Killer hooks survivor B.
Killer hooks survivor C.
Killer hooks survivor A, B, or C again and leaves the hook.
Survivor D unhooks with Shoulder the Burden. The killer has now been punished not only for not camping or tunneling, but also for spreading hooks.
Deactivating it for all players solves scenario 1.
Yes this happens to me when I'm playing killer.
Yes, EVERY SINGLE TIME I see it used it's one of these two situations.
No, it's not common, but tell me truthfully if you think that the perk cannot be abused after reading this.
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@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117518#Comment_4117518
i think you might misunderstand because borrowed time is now an effect for yourself if you get hit into deep wound while having endurance rather than being a perk to help your teammate out
Wait the perk is not an altruistic effect you put onto others anymore?
Well I don't hate the effect if that's the case, I just wish it was a new perk rather than being a rework to Borrowed Time.
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Man I don't even like the Windows nerf either but this is a lot of nonsense.
The reason it's catching this nerf is most likely because of bad survivors using it and mindlessly running to every pallet and dropping it, which is trivially easy for killers to play around and simply wastes map resources. Five Moves Ahead still provides the pallet benefit while preventing you from using it badly like this.
I always felt like the risk of bad survivors using it improperly was worth the trade-off of the help it provides to new and casual players as well as solo queue players, which is why I don't approve of the nerf they're giving it. But let's be absolutely clear here: the survivors who could end win streaks were absolutely the kinds who use Five Moves Ahead over Windows of Opportunity.
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My main concern currently is Borrowed Time. I feel like making it mend you passively is worse than its current effect. Just don't have it extend the Elusive buff, the 10 extra seconds of Haste was really good for an altruistic anti-tunnel perk.
You can inadvertently mess up your ally's build if they're using Made For This, for example. Such a player would likely prefer to stay Deep Wounds if hit off hook. The only time this effect will really be useful is if the unhooked person is running Dead Hard.
@Abbylynn16 said:
I am disappointed in the change to Stake Out. Specifically changing the skill check from "Great Skill Check" to "special" and intentionally nerfing the interaction / synergies with other skill check perks.
While I understand the purpose was likely to nerf players running crazy gen rush builds. I was using its synergy with Corrective Action as as a way to compensate when playing with a my spouse or friends with disabilities who struggle with Skill Checks. So much so that due to this hurdle the anxiety of Skill Checks made the game unplayable for them : ( I purchased Detective Tapp specifically to accomplish this and was happily willing to "sacrifice" half my perk slots to effectively do the skill checks for them if it enabled their to enjoy the game with me.
I know this is probably a specific situation that no one cares about but wanted to share feedback as something to consider.
ThanksCouldn't they use the new This Is Not Happening to help with this?
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@KingOfDoom55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116437#Comment_4116437
Appreciate tips, but what I actually meant was adjusting the aim direction, instead of the tail just being a horizontal line/arc that it us right now, Turning the camera to the right or left or even diagonal midstrike (instead of of just vertical aiming and being locked into 1 direction like it does right now) would make this killer more rewarding to play as and satisfying while adding more skill ceiling and depth to it, that's what I meant, sorry, should have specified it in my first comment, heh
I don't think it would add depth or increase the skill ceiling as much as lower the skill floor by reducing the precision needed to use the tail effectively.
Xeno's tail is a lot like a projectile rather than a constant effect across the entire line like Nemesis's whip. The moment you hear the tail go 'clink' against something or hit a survivor, the attack ends.
But it would make the tail more forgiving to use since you could miss and then turn and adjust the attack, making it even harder than it already is for survivors to dodge. It would also make it easier to destroy flamer turrets, since you could panic when you have fire blowing on you and spin towards it and tail strike and then adjust mid-attack if you missed the turret.
It would make the killer easier to play and more frustrating to play against but it wouldn't actually increase its depth.
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@KingOfDoom55 said:
My main issue with xeno in general, is how... underwhelming the range for tailstrike is or how linear the tail hit box is, I just wish there was more skill expression, like changing its hit box direction mid strike, like hitting crouching survivors over pallets and increased range, but that's just me, my biggest issue... is how the flame turrets still detect xenomorph while undetectable in general and that xeno shoukd have more basekit addons for 2v8, like turret fire range and stagger resistance from turrets but also tunnels, some tunnels, specifically for maps with multiple levels/floors, still have messed up placements or not enough tunnel stations per generator
On the note of changing the trajectory mid-strike and hitting crouching survivors over pallets: it can do that.
The tail hits in a slight downward arc. You can lift your head slightly to lob it over obstacles.
The way the tail works is that the hitbox extends out from you in a line that juts forward and slightly down. Like a projectile that's attached to your body.If you lift your head a bit, the tail will arc over the pallet to hit the crouching survivor.
You can also raise and lower your head during the strike to change the angle, and strafe to drag the tail like a Nemesis whip.
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I have realized something else after playing a bit more. Xeno's map mobility is actually badly hurt in 2v8 as well, due to how many chests there are. Each chest occupies the spawn point of a tunnel. There's huge stretches of map sometimes with no tunnel exit.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115743#Comment_4115743
im in the god awful que waiting for my killer where i will use xeno with the king skin. ill see how rough it is. but do you know how many turrets they are able to place. if they gave them any additional i do feel like youd barely ever be in power
The survivors didn't seem to get access to any more turrets than usual. Whether this is because there's just not any more than usual, survivors I went against were bad at using them, or my ally was destroying them for me I can't say.
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@HexSlugged said:
i have not played in the mode yet or as xeno in 2v8. i already had assumed he wouldnt be great in 2v8 due to how its set up, but i would tentatively postulate (again knowing i havnt tried him in 2v8 yet) that your losing time every time you go into power just to get the power which you then exit to get back into a chase doesnt gain you more time than having not dropped the chase or gone into a state of non action just to get a tail attack back.
i am of the opinion his tail should complement his m1 fundamentals, it should not be what you soley rely on to get downs.
Ill see if my opinion changes of course, just my initial thoughts. i dont think xeno is strong enough to need turrets anyways tbh and they are utterly frustrating. how many turrets are people allowed to spam in 2v8 now? and can your team mate destroy turrets?
Well that's what I mean when I say the killer is worse in this mode.
In 1v4 I very rarely get knocked out of power, even in double flamer setups. Because I can run Lambert's Star Map or the Emergency Helmet. Between the two, usually Lambert's Star Map, because it allows you to reliably just M1 the turret when it starts firing at you. If it starts firing at you from an angle you weren't expecting, like if it's hidden in a bush or in corn, it allows you to back out of range of it more easily so you can look around and figure out where it is.
I haven't exactly gotten knocked out of crawler mode often so far in 2v8, but that's because I have hundreds of hours on this killer and I have a lot of built up muscle memory and reaction speed for dealing with turrets. But by the same measure I am shocked at how much more threatening they are without the protection of those addons, since I never play the killer without them, there simply isn't a reason to.
Of course the tail shouldn't be all you use to get downs, but that's not the point. The tail threatens survivors by being in play and makes them play different. They have to try to mindgame at pallets and windows. Without the tail, nothing is stopping them from just vaulting windows or pre-dropping the pallet.
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@HexSlugged said:
- Ovomorph, which decreases the cooldown of crawler mode by 25% when outside of a tunnel. This is much worse than simply adding resistance to getting burned out of the power to begin with.
objectively not useless. regardless of whether something else is stronger or not useless, on its own 25% faster power acquisition is notable.
- Parker's Headband, which gives a brief 5% haste after exiting a tunnel, which is often useless as you will lose any benefit this gives you shortly after exiting the tunnel since survivors will place turrets somewhere nearby which you will have to destroy anyway.
I presume there is not a turret at every single tunnel so not useless, just not consistently useful.
- Kane's Helmet, which causes Mangled when you hit survivors with a tail attack, a debuff of already dubious utility in 1v4, let alone in 2v8 due to the presence of the Medic class.
This is in fact trash due to how many people just press 1 button to insta heal
You get power back by going into the tunnels, that's why it's bad. If you get burned out of the power you lost the chase, because you're a powerless 115% M1 killer at that point. You need to either be able to walk up to the survivor and down them or you have to break chase to get your power back, chasing without your tail with all the pallets in this mode is a futile endeavor.
All ovomorph does is give you power back if you're walking around outside of the tunnels, which you shouldn't be doing. If you're not in power and not in chase, go into a tunnel.
In 1v4 the ovomorph has some mediocre usage when combined with Ripley's Watch, which auto-breaks turrets which burn you out of power. You can play brain off Xenomorph and just pretend the turrets aren't there. This is still a bad way to play the killer.
The point is that killers who are already stronger than Xenomorph like Wesker and Dracula got notable buffs in this mode, while Xenomorph got three of its most underwhelming addons and nothing else. The killer feels absolutely horrible to play in 2v8.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096818#Comment_4096818
"One of the worst killers in the game" I do just fine on them far from the worst killer, I appreciate the well thought out post but I'm tired of Jason cope at this point, your kit is overloaded and that can't be argued, Huntress and Trickster do just fine, Jason is literally easy mode ranged killer for people who want to put in no effort..
He is badly designed, end of, it's exhausting dealing with y'all.You understand when saying this that you literally think he has abilities he doesn't have, right?
He doesn't have basekit bamboozle.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096231#Comment_4096231
You have a point but that would suggest he needs it shorter than his CD then? I don't see how the reload points matter since he can grab it in OE anyways, as a Trickster player I have to stay stationary at a locker and also move around perma at 110, i need more hits than you requiring me to hit 6 times as much with the possibility of decay thrown in.
Why should Jason get to do my job more easily, I'm reworked just earlier this year, yet you can just reload, get haste, even displace them from the loop with barely even a fraction of the effort, not to mention your hitboxes are much larger.
I basically NEED bamboozle to be able to loop shack against a good player as Trickster, Jason gets haste base kit.
It's frustrating to face and it just doesnt make sense even compared to unknown what Jason can do..
He is this way to sell him.Trickster is one of the worst killers in the game, why do you want Jason brought down to his level instead of Trickster brought up to Jason's? Also I'm not a Jason main, in fact I don't even like playing him very much, I just spent time playing him to try to learn why the devs made some of the decisions they did. I deliberately did not use the hex build.
Jason does not get Bamboozle basekit. Like I said, the window/pallet block lasts only 2 seconds, during which time Jason cannot attack. If he's using Bamboozle and teleports to a window, he applies the Bamboozle block.
@WiselySkele66 said:
I just went against a Jason who barely used omnipresent and focused purely on spears, it felt like going against a huntress with built in anti heal and a tp in the back pocket, that was miserable. Also why was shack brought up as a balance point? Thats just miserable for almost every killer? and I agree hes this way to sell him, but hopefully he gets reigned in, as it stands with queue times im stuck playing survivor, and half my matches are against Jason
oh also…
Addendum: Nerf him more, 25 second cooldown, I was too kind in my suggestions, i hadn't realized he refreshed scrap piles on using omnipresent i thought they had cooldown like hook, or give them respawn timers instead of refresh on OEPeople keep picking apart the singular tiles without actually understanding what point I'm trying to convey with them, which is that his access to ammo is inconsistent and that's why he has the movespeed buff he does.
I went to Midwich this time, widely regarded as a killer-favoring map, and screenshotted two tiles to convey the point, and hopefully people will get it this time.
1 reload point in the tile, he has to leave the room to get another spear if he misses, or if he didn't have ammo prior to entering this room. Every room in Midwich was laid out like this.
Literally one single reload point in the entirety of the courtyard and it's shoved in the back of a corner. Now to be fair, I reloaded this map to see if this was a fluke, and the second try there was another hook in the courtyard in a much more convenient spot (slightly to the right of where I took this screenshot) but this is still far from ideal.
Okay, what about Coal Tower? Often regarded as a well-balanced map.
One reload inside the tile AND conveniently located! He has to exit the tile to get another.
This was the best tile I could find in terms of giving him access to ammo. The hook is conveniently located, but the junk pile is not. It's not the worst placement ever, but walking away from that double window setup to grab a new spear is not ideal.
No other ranged killer has to worry about this. Huntress gets multiple shots. Deathslinger can reload any time. Trickster has a ton of knives. Springtrap just needs to wait out a cooldown and he's 115% movespeed while not carrying his axe.
Importantly, bold for emphasis: this does not mean Jason is weak. Jason is a strong killer. Yes, it's good that he's punished for missing.
But he needs that movespeed buff. If they remove it, he would drop down in tiers dramatically as he suddenly becomes incredibly punishing to play. Any missed spear would become an enormous blow to his odds of downing the survivor in a timely manner, as he would be chasing as a 110% movespeed M1 killer, unless he's willing to take a detour to grab a new spear and let the survivor leave the tile.
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If it helps, every time I have seen it, it has been incredibly impactful.
Quite bluntly, most survivors aren't looping in a way that would make this perk strong. The overwhelming majority run to pallets, maybe do one loop around it if it's safe or camp it and then drop it.
So the only people who know how good it is and how to use it are the ones running it.
But then those people don't actually want the killer to get lost chasing them, because then the killer will pivot to one of their worse allies and they actually like being chased.
So you need to be a combination of good, with team mates you trust, and you don't mind the killer losing you and leaving you to go back to sitting on gens.
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@Angy_Quentin said:
You can hear invis survivors if that helps. I track them by my ######### ears.
This doesn't help after they've activated the banquet buff and go through the portal, which is what's going on in that clip. The portal gives them invisibility when they come out the other side. They could be quite literally anywhere by the time you follow them through.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096253#Comment_4096253
… Okay I'll try to explain this easier for you. Since Jason blocks the pallets, someone in that room can't stun him which then lets him either m1 or spear them. Jason is extremely strong and even if he somehow misses the hook is right there and there's essentially no slowdown and since it's all cramp hallways you can't dodge in. The best example you have of his ammo being inconsistent is a location where he wins every throw and can't be mindgamed.
Once again, this has nothing to do with Jason's power level. I took that screenshot to show the inconsistency of his access to ammo to explain why he has a buff that makes him a normal movespeed killer. Jason best not miss there because if he does he only has one more shot, and that's assuming the shot he took wasn't the hook in that room.
But to address this situation specifically: look at the youtube clip I linked. You have two pallets there, not one. If he chases you in there and goes into Omnipresent Evil to refresh his movement speed buff, wait between the two pallets to see which one he teleports to. The pallet block is completely irrelevant because it is not a chase tool, the block only lasts the same amount of time Jason cannot attack.
If he teleports to the one in that room, run to the other one, which also puts walls between you so he can't throw his spear at you.
Unless all you know how to do is run to pallets and camp them, you have answers to Jason teleporting into that room.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096242#Comment_4096242
No I just know the layout of the map. No matter what happens Jason will win that pallet. Because it's blocked in a short room you either spear them or m1 easily since it's all hallways around you. Using RPD to show how he's weak is a horrible idea since even if they run out to the stair vault then you spear them there as Jason has both haste and a fast as hell windup in a cramp area, it's extremely powerful and has essentially no counterplay besides be psychic.
Don't be disingenuous. You were talking about how he gets a free hit there because he blocks the pallet and M1s. You clearly didn't know he can't attack instantly after teleporting or that the pallet block only lasts for the same length of time he can't attack. Judging by this you may not even know that his speed boost only makes him slightly less fast than a 115% movespeed killer, since you're talking like he gets a burst of speed like Wraith here.
And again, I wasn't trying to show Jason is weak, I was trying to show that his access to ammunition is inconsistent and this is most likely why he was given the move speed boost to bring him up to just shy of normal killer movement speed, instead of being locked to 110% like other projectile killers. In some places he has easy instant access to reloads, in others he doesn't. As a result he has to rely more on M1s than other ranged killers do, as he can't afford to miss shots as much.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096217#Comment_4096217
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I’m not convinced the Killers mentioned are different enough (except maybe Onryo) to justify playing them over Jason. Outside of super niche builds like moonshot Huntress, Jason satisfies enough of each major killer archetype (that isnt traps/zoning) to be a one-stop-shop.
Arguing granular details about killer powers is futile when people don’t play killers for granular reasons. If two killers are similar playstyles, people gravitate towards the more powerful.
Jason might not be “OP” but he is objectively more powerful than killers who have 1/3 of his kit. It means future killers need to come equipped with just as much bloat to convince players to buy/play.
This isn’t a problem today, but it is a problem for the future. …not the first live service game to go down this routeArguing granular details about killer powers is futile when people don’t play killers for granular reasons. If two killers are similar playstyles, people gravitate towards the more powerful.
I don't agree with this at all. There are people who have a strong preference between characters in the same playstyle. In fact most people do. I also don't think the differences Jason has with most of the killers you mentioned are granular except for the projectile ones.
Ex: I have historically never liked playing projectile killers, but I do like playing Springtrap, because he doesn't have to reload and he can throw his hatchet away to brute force down 110 abuse tiles, which are the reasons why I didn't like playing projectile killers before him.
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096234#Comment_4096234
Because it does nothing to show how the game actually works. Like even the image you are using shows how powerful Jason is. He blocks the pallet in the statue room and then M1s them and after that pins the person since you can throw over it and if not there's the hook like 0.5 seconds away and the survivor can't get anywhere in that time frame. Same issue with the second image you shown where he can just block the pallet and m1 or throw and then easily reload in chase.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Jason has a 1 second animation as he exits power and can't move, and then another 1 second period where he can't attack. He only blocks the pallet for this 2 second duration, it's basically just there to keep the survivor from dropping it and stunning him in the middle of his teleport.
If he's running Bamboozle and teleports to a window, he blocks the window with Bamboozle, otherwise the window gets blocked for this same 2 second duration where Jason can't do anything.
Also I never said Jason wasn't strong. But he's strong in the way Spirit or Dracula is strong. He's not overpowered outside of how good he is at guarding hexes.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096231#Comment_4096231
Seriously? A bot game is the best evidence you could come up with, lol.
How does the fact they're bots matter here? I'm showing the environment, not demonstrating my skills as Jason.
I'll do it again:
Here's the "Scooby-Doo" hallway, as Mr. Tatorhead likes to call it. I have 1 hook to reload from here. In fact, in total on this part of the map, I have only 3 reload points.
Here's the other two. Neither of them are in the Scooby-Doo hallway, so if I'm lucky and I already have a spear when chasing someone into that hall, I only have one other shot before I'm down to just being an M1 killer or leaving the chase.
And this isn't a complaint, by the way. I think it's good that the survivor is rewarded for dodging/killer is punished for missing. I'm just pointing out the consistency issue Jason has.
However, it's the exact opposite if I were chasing someone in the tile below. In that case I would have a junk pile and hook both easily available inside of the tile and I don't need to go out of my way for either.
PS: Just to be clear what I mean by Scooby-Doo hall:
Live at 4:20PM EST Weekdays here, and on twitch! - https://www.twitch.tv/mr_tatorheadWe have been calling this loop the "Scooby Doo" for years now! We call i... -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096217#Comment_4096217
but why does he need it for 30s on a 12s CD? 15s would be more than fine.
I mean strictly speaking about the haste effect, what's the difference here between a 12s cooldown and 15s cooldown? They're both shorter than the duration he gets haste for. This nerf would be more to his ability to traverse the map since it would take him longer before he could go back into OE.
But also refreshing it is more inconvenient than it seems. You can only come out of it at a window, pallet, or one of those unique pre-broken pallet spawns. I loaded up a bot game to show the issue.
I chased Tapp to killer shack and then entered OE to refresh haste. I cannot exit OE anywhere on the outside of shack where he is, I have to pick the window or pallet, so he's completely safe until I do.
I also need a new spear. I have two reload points here. Both of them are in inconvenient places. The hook is on the long side of shack, the junk pile is outside of shack. If I miss a shot, I need to go out of my way to get another. If I miss both shots, I simply can't get another until chase leaves shack.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096180#Comment_4096180
idk coz the haste for coming out of OE just circumvents the downside of constantly reloading, it's dumb.
This is exactly why he needs the haste. I didn't understand why he got it either until I played him. He has to reload after every shot like Deathslinger and Springtrap, except that he doesn't have as much control over reloading as them. He has to walk by a junk pile or a hook. Until you play him yourself you don't realize how inconsistent this is. I know it feels like when he's chasing you that they're everywhere but trust me they're not.
Even when he does have access to both a junk pile and a hook in a tile, they have respawn periods after he grabs ammo from them
@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096180#Comment_4096180
Sorry if this is technically “off-topic,” but because you said “in the perfect spot…”
How do you feel about the power creep that is his base kit? I don’t see anyone talking about it, and I find it incredibly concerning.
Jason may not be OP or “too strong,” but his kit eclipses the need for anyone to play Wraith, Spirit, Huntress, Deathslinger, Springtrap, Onryo, Demo, and probably several others I’m forgetting to mention.
It raises serious concerns for future killer designI feel like you're thinking about this the wrong way.
First off, as you said yourself, he's not OP or too strong (outside of the hex build). So clearly he's not power creep, then. Except for Spirit, all of the killers you mentioned need buffs. Some of them are really weak right now. Unless you think they're the healthy ones, but then the survivors need nerfs instead.
But also, killer playstyles are important and Jason doesn't have the same playstyle as these killers except for the projectile ones.
- Huntress, Springtrap, and Deathslinger all need buffs. And they're distinct from Jason in their own unique ways. Like Springtrap never needs to worry about reloading, just waiting out a cooldown. Deathslinger can reload at any time he wants. Huntress has multiple hatchets so she has way more shots than Jason. If all you care about is the projectile part of the kit, you're still probably going to gravitate more towards Huntress or Deathslinger due to this, or you might find Jason to be a different experience due to the fact he trades inconsistent access to ammo for bursts of faster movement speed, better map mobility, and stealth.
- Spirit has a distinct playstyle of approaching invisibily and tracking by sound, and she can attack instantly out of stealth. She's all about this, Jason just uses stealth to get close to survivors, he can't attack you out of stealth. She's also about as strong as Jason when played well.
- Wrath is also about ambushing people out of stealth. Jason can't do this because he has a delay coming out of OE. He can't cut survivors off and bodyblock them or use his uncloak speed boost to outplay tiles. If you like playing Wraith, you might enjoy Jason but not because he's just a better Wraith.
- Sadako has a very unique macro-oriented playstyle of building up condemned on the survivors and controlling the TVs. She's stronger than people think (I feel like a lot of people try to play her like an M1 killer with a teleport) but she's still weak, and her playstyle is extremely different from Jason as he is a chase-oriented killer while Sadako is about macro play and hit & run.
- Demogorgon already got power crept by Wesker and Dracula. Demo is extremely weak right now and in need of some buffs. And also he doesn't offer the same playstyle as Jason since he's not a projectile killer, he's a dash killer.
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The spears are interesting because when you're playing vs him, it can sometimes feel like he just has infinite ammo. But then you try playing as him, and suddenly getting a spear mid-chase is really difficult, requiring you to give up distance to take a detour to grab it.
Before I had a chance to play as him a bunch, I thought he was a bit too much. But now that I've played him, I think he's overall fine with a few small issues. It really is important to play as the character yourself to learn what struggles they go through and how others counter him. My performance against him went up dramatically with some experience playing as him under my belt. This is true in the opposite direction, too - you should play against the character to see if your issues playing him are personal issues or not.
Jason just needs two nerfs to basically be in a perfect spot imo. They also happened to both be in Scott Jund's video today, so now people can accuse me of parroting streamers!
- You need to be invisible to him in Omnipresent Evil while cleansing totems. The hex build is just way way too good.
- Deputy Badge should not regress already regressing generators.
Also they should maybe look into nerfing Thrill of the Hunt back down to 50% like it was before the buffs it got in 8.4. Hex builds are really difficult to deal with right now and it's all due to Thrill, where before that buff they weren't that hard to deal with while Thrill was still a pretty good perk.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095850#Comment_4095850
Yeah. He camped and tunneled. Because the community treats camping and tunneling as a personal attack/form of BM, people were able to use those as tools to harass others and the message was clear.
This is why I keep bringing up hooking.
Nobodyregards hooking as a personal attack. If the Leatherface just hooked people, nobody would notice anything amiss at all, because hooking is not seen as a personal attack.Here you go, happy reading
So if said leatherface ONLY hooked a specific survivor and let everyone else go…that survivor wouldnt see it as a personal attack because of?……..
Yes they are.
Your entitled to your beliefs…but i feel the obligation to point out its wrong. I mean, I only see specific forms of tunneling, slugging and camping toxic, not the whole thing, i can probably list atleast 5 others who are similar, and id bet that theres a good number here on the forum who don't see all tunneling and slugging toxic. Juuuuuuuuust throwing that out there.
You misunderstood what I meant.
But thats not what you said.
If you took someone who never played DBD before, explained the basic rules, and sat them in the killer role, their first instinct is going to be to tunnel.
People have reservations about that more than conditioning. Those who play both sides know what it feels like when they were tunneled and in turn dont want to inflict that unto random undeserving strangers. That would be called empathy. Besides that, reasonable people (emphasis on reasonable) aren't going to be spewing toxicity for something like being unhooked in front of the killers face (towards the killer anyway). People WILL do so when said killer does something like dropping a chase across the map just to go get them.
Why do you think this happens so often?THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO CONVEY.Not really. What you are conveying is "These tactics are in the game and therefore can never be toxic" and "Its only toxic because we keep calling it that", the first is false while the second ends in the previous "words wont have meaning" thing. I keep pointing out how these things could be used as personal attacks. It isnt always a attack, but it can and has been used as such.
I don't know why you linked the Leatherface thing since I already knew it. I got really frustrated because it made me feel like you didn't understand what I meant and I don't know how to explain it any better to you, but you do understand so why did you link it then?
I'm not responding anymore after this because you understand my point and you're just trying to get me to say that it's possible to do things in the game to be toxic. Like it is in every game. The problem is that all of your examples have nothing to do with winning the game.
4-man bleedouts could only occur after the killer had won, it had nothing to do with winning the game. The Leatherface example you gave involves the Leatherface player deliberately throwing the match, it would have nothing to do with winning the game.
That would be like in a hero shooter if the entire team ignored the point to spawn camp one person. Killing enemy players is not seen as toxic, even spawn camping is not seen as toxic when it's done strategically, but throwing the match to keep one person in spawn is no longer about trying to win the match.
The problem is that in DBD, people don't make this distinction. The context for why you tunneled doesn't matter, a lot of players just view the act of tunneling at all to be toxic.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095619#Comment_4095619
The fact you're fighting me this hard on trying to defend this game's silly made up unwritten rules is why this game is so hostile.
Well, considering your practically defending people using things to make others miserable, i think ima keep fightin (also im very very bored and cant sleep).
If everyone understood that tunneling was part of the game, tunneling someone because of their name would not be seen as any more unusual than hooking someone because of their name.
So you realize I can make that sound really horrible correct? Idk if you know this but Bubba used to have special face cosmetics for each of the 4 original survivors. They don't exist anymore, care to guess why?
Moving on from that sentence. What I see is that you think that the whole mass of players is conditioned like a dog to see these as toxic which is false. To tie into my point:
But if you tunnel someone, you might get asked why you tunneled them, because that person has been conditioned to perceive tunneling as a personal attack.
Because maybe they wanna know if they made a mistake somewhere? Or maybe they were targeted before and want to see if theres a common cause? Definatly more reasons than simple conditioning. If someone decided to tunnel me explicitly and in the endgame said something along the lines of "You shouldn't be a rulebreaker"…gee i might take that abit personally if they don't explain. Or maybe even if they do if the explanation boils to "i don't like your name". If IM conditioned, its due to past experiences where its been proven that sometimes, they wanna make it personal.
If you took someone who never played DBD before, explained the basic rules, and sat them in the killer role, their first instinct is going to be to tunnel.
Ya know, funny enough I did do this long ago. They didn't tunnel on first instinct, they infact left the hook to look for others. Now, idk why they didnt (kinda proud looking back) but all i did was give advice after the trial for them. Maybe it was because it would have been impractical to do, maybe due to personality, its a bit late to ask. Never brought up tunneling or camping (though didn't need to for that as they'd be bored sitting at a hook) till once they asked about it from a salty survivor. They're not conditioned, as far as I figure they simply don't care too.
This is why this game's community has such a bad reputation.
…Certainly not the whole death threats, bming, and other things, nooooo…
So when someone tries survivor for the first time right and they're left on the dirt for most the match then get told somethin stupid what do you think goes on in their head? They see how (in this case) slugging is bad because they did nothing for most the match and get mocked for trying to play the game (which again they barely could). This then leads to what?
So you realize I can make that sound really horrible correct? Idk if you know this but Bubba used to have special face cosmetics for each of the 4 original survivors. They don't exist anymore, care to guess why?
Yeah. He camped and tunneled. Because the community treats camping and tunneling as a personal attack/form of BM, people were able to use those as tools to harass others and the message was clear.
This is why I keep bringing up hooking. Nobody regards hooking as a personal attack. If the Leatherface just hooked people, nobody would notice anything amiss at all, because hooking is not seen as a personal attack.
Moving on from that sentence. What I see is that you think that the whole mass of players is conditioned like a dog to see these as toxic which is false.
Yes they are.
Because maybe they wanna know if they made a mistake somewhere?
No. They want to know why the killer targeted them. Nobody asks this question in endgame chat thinking they're going to receive constructive criticism of their gameplay. If they did do something to invite it, and you answer them, they're not going to listen.
Ya know, funny enough I did do this long ago. They didn't tunnel on first instinct, they infact left the hook to look for others.
You misunderstood what I meant. I meant if given two targets to pick from, the killer will naturally pick one that is closer to death. If the survivor gets unhooked in front of them, the killer will naturally choose the more vulnerable target, which is the unhooked person. I didn't mean people will just camp the hook and tunnel immediately, I meant they would have no reservations against it.
…Certainly not the whole death threats, bming, and other things, nooooo…
Why do you think this happens so often? THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO CONVEY.
Sabotaged the hook? Personal attack.
Flashlight blinded? Personal attack.
Tunneled? Personal attack.
Camped? Personal attack.
Slugged? Personal attack.
If someone is frustrated and feels attacked, they're going to lash out. It's not a defense of elevating it but it would happen less if people didn't treat regular game actions so personally.
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Sorry, which perks are causing more balancing issues than the one which lets you auto-win chase at any high wall tile?
I legitimately can't think of a perk more powerful in the game right now when used well than this one.
The fact most survivors don't know how good it is makes it more deadly, because then you run into one who does and you forgot it exists, and then they just turn into a ghost the moment you start chasing them in any tile where you can break LoS with them.
Hell the day it came out this perk won my team an entire match when I was on death hook in a Shane adept match and Ghoul chased me into a high wall jungle gym. She totally lost track of me, spent a ton of time trying to figure out where I went which bought my team time, and then gave up, which left me alive to continue doing gens.
And I didn't even do anything crazy to outplay her, I just noticed the perk activated and left the loop, and she had no idea. She spent another 20 seconds trying to figure out if I was still there.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095577#Comment_4095577
Literally yes. Which ties in to the rest of what you wrote. The no-hook playstyle is annoying, but not inherently toxic, because it is a legitimate method of victory which is very strong. If it's a problem, it's on the developers to fix, not on the community to guilt each other to stop doing.
If thats true then everyones words dont mean anything. Its therefore both toxic and non toxic due to one group saying so and another saying its not. This then solves nothing while one group still makes another miserable. And again, my point is you can use a playstyle thats both legitimate AND toxic as they are not mutually exclusive. Slugging because you have a survivor under a pallet? Cool go for it. Slugging to watch them crawl into a corner to bleed out? Not cool no no. Now how could the game tell the intent? Short of it is it cant. Does that then mean that one of those isn't toxic? Not in my definition at least.
When I was a kid, and this was before the internet mind you as I am pretty old, we had a house rule that you weren't allowed to corner your opponent because of this. Because cornering your opponent was cheap and unfair. You had to simply let your opponent get out of the corner. If you didn't play along, we would say you're a jerk.
Now tell me, is DbD like an good ol fashion game of Soulcaliber? Both sides in equal starting? Both sides can do this or that near equally? In DbD, one side can vastly more easily throw the other into a "corner" with the other side able to do very little against it or to escape it. But again, the point is that you can use a "legitimate tactic" while being "toxic" depending on use. Pray tell, any of your friends break that house rule just to rile up the others?
Here's an example of how i see it: Think of a hammer. What can you do with a hammer? You can build a house. You can break someone's face. Its a tool with multiple uses. Some good, some probably not. Now think about tunneling. What could you do? You can tunnel someone whos literally the only one you ever see. You could tunnel that arrogant t-bagging clicky click survivor. You could tunnel that survivor due to their player name. Some good, some bad. Its a tool and how its used determines if its bad/toxic.
The fact you're fighting me this hard on trying to defend this game's silly made up unwritten rules is why this game is so hostile.
If everyone understood that tunneling was part of the game, tunneling someone because of their name would not be seen as any more unusual than hooking someone because of their name. If you hooked someone because of their name and then in end game chat tried to rub it in that you hooked them, people would think you're weird, because there's no stigma against that. But if you tunnel someone, you might get asked why you tunneled them, because that person has been conditioned to perceive tunneling as a personal attack. You see the problem here?
If you took someone who never played DBD before, explained the basic rules, and sat them in the killer role, their first instinct is going to be to tunnel. Why wouldn't you tunnel? Why would you not go for the person who is injured and closer to death? People get told not to do this by others. The expectation is set that it's bad to do it by others.
This is why this game's community has such a bad reputation. People come in, try it, then get told awful things because they were just trying to play the game and accidentally violated an unwritten code of conduct rule. Then they either go "screw this" and leave, or stick around and get conditioned to believe the same things.
I had almost this exact same conversation with someone else on reddit recently who told me that it's "unsportsmanlike" to tunnel, and then in the same breath said that people who do it are degenerate. And when I pointed out that the person being unsportsmanlike is the one hurling insults, I got downvoted, not them. This community is absurd about this nonsense.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095496#Comment_4095496
Yes, it did. The abandon feature completely killed 4 man bleedouts. You can't do it anymore, it's literally impossible, the survivors will just leave once all four of them are on the ground.
And yet people STILL slug everyone AND don't bother hooking everyone till they're bots. I don't abandon on principle, yes that is a me problem, yet it shows me a lot of intentions of people. People still try to do this and for what?
There are killers who do it because of this and because they want to annoy the survivors, but if there wasn't a community stigma against it, it could never be done to annoy the survivors.
The stigma comes from the fact that it's annoying survivors because they can't do anything. The stigma to the tactics didn't come till killers kept being toxic with it (bar the sore losers who always exist).
Slugging for pressure and tunneling progress the game and get you closer to winning, they are not inherently toxic.
And this is where we said that it depends on how it's used...
The only reason it's done to be toxic is because the community decided it was toxic.
…And this is where your incorrect. Now why was the above abandon feature for 4 man slugs added again? Because people kept Slugging everyone and not bothering to hook them. Before that feature was added what was the point of this bleed out?
If there was no community stigma against doing it, it could never be done to be toxic, similar to how it's never toxic to hook someone.
This is basically saying to me that "it's only toxic if we say so". That's basically saying "words are whatever we want them to mean".
This is basically saying to me that "it's only toxic if we say so". That's basically saying "words are whatever we want them to mean".
Literally yes. Which ties in to the rest of what you wrote. The no-hook playstyle is annoying, but not inherently toxic, because it is a legitimate method of victory which is very strong. If it's a problem, it's on the developers to fix, not on the community to guilt each other to stop doing.
Let me use a different example.
Ever played any Street Fighter games? Or really any 2D fighting games.
If you had, you would know that getting put in the corner is a really bad position to be in, as the corner allows your opponent to do more effective combos on you and it's hard to fight your way out of it.
When I was a kid, and this was before the internet mind you as I am pretty old, we had a house rule that you weren't allowed to corner your opponent because of this. Because cornering your opponent was cheap and unfair. You had to simply let your opponent get out of the corner. If you didn't play along, we would say you're a jerk.
But of course, other people in the broader fighting game community who didn't play by those rules instead treated the corner like a normal part of the game. It's a position you try to force your opponent into as a natural part of gameplay. Nobody says it's toxic, because it's not, it's just a part of playing 2D fighters.
This is basically tunneling in DBD. Except that for some reason, the childish attitude me and my friends had became normalized in this community instead of being ignored, and now intentional game mechanics are treated as toxic.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095472#Comment_4095472
This has nothing to do with trying to win the game.
Sigh all you want but that's my point. People using "valid" tactics in ways to **** off others. People are using these tactics in such a way where it's not to really progress the game, just to tick off the opponents, this is a fact. What do we call it? It's not banned or cheating, but if you're not finishing the job when you easily could, what are you doing? Why are you doing? Also the abandon feature doesn't really remove people doing it does it?
Besides that this:
It only depends on how it's used because people have equated it with toxicity
Kinda seems like your talking that all tunneling or Slugging is only toxic because people equate it to being toxic. Yet it can be used both "responsibly" for lack of better words and "toxicly" also for lack of better words.
And this:
So you can upset people by just playing the game the way it was designed.
Kinda confirmed it. Its not mutually exclusive, being in the game and being toxic. Both can be true.
Also the abandon feature doesn't really remove people doing it does it?
Once again, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Yes, it did. The abandon feature completely killed 4 man bleedouts. You can't do it anymore, it's literally impossible, the survivors will just leave once all four of them are on the ground. Unless they WANT to get bled out for some reason, but the reason bleeding the whole team out was toxic is because it was just abusing the fact survivors couldn't do anything to stop it, the killer had already won, there was no reason to do it except to be mean.
It's similar to all remaining living survivors sitting on the exit gate refusing to leave. There is no reason to do that except to be mean. The killer can force them out unlike 4-man bleedouts, but it's not an action that's done to win the game.
People are still 4 man slugging because the no hook playstyle exists and is extremely effective. There are killers who do it because of this and because they want to annoy the survivors, but if there wasn't a community stigma against it, it could never be done to annoy the survivors.
Slugging for pressure and tunneling progress the game and get you closer to winning, they are not inherently toxic. The only reason it's done to be toxic is because the community decided it was toxic. If there was no community stigma against doing it, it could never be done to be toxic, similar to how it's never toxic to hook someone.
Do you understand now?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095452#Comment_4095452
you wouldn't have people who tunnel with the clear intention of trying to upset you.
Yeaaaaaa no. I've personally been tunneled and camped for my name of "Rulebreaker". If you think people wouldn't do something just to spite another here in the fog I got some stuff to sell.
Besides that point, what exactly would we equate to the team being slugged and left to bleed out? No hooking after, just to bleed for minutes?
Yeaaaaaa no. I've personally been tunneled and camped for my name of
"Rulebreaker". If you think people wouldn't do something just to spite
another here in the fog I got some stuff to sell.That's my point.
People do that because people think it's toxic to do that despite the fact they're intended game mechanics. So you can upset people by just playing the game the way it was designed.
If it was expected that the killer might tunnel you because you're in a vulnerable position, you wouldn't have people tunneling to be toxic, because that's just the expectation.
Imagine a world where the community decided that hooking was toxic. It's no less arbitrary than deciding tunneling is toxic. If you get hooked you get put closer to death, and there is a real chance this could have been the case since early in the game there was no Borrowed Time or DS or any sort of off-hook protection, and you could only unhook when standing directly in front of the survivor which the killer could block by standing there (aka where the term "face camping" originated from)
So the expectation in this hypothetical world would be that the killer would only slug people. So if a killer wanted to be toxic, they would put survivors on the hook, despite the fact this is an intended game mechanic.
You understand what I'm saying now?
Besides that point, what exactly would we equate to the team being
slugged and left to bleed out? No hooking after, just to bleed for
minutes?Sure but don't pretend like this is what I was talking about lol
This has nothing to do with trying to win the game. If you're gonna give me a "gotcha, it is how it's used" over this I am going to sigh, this is the kind of argument people make fun of redditors for.
Also it's not even possible anymore since the abandon feature exists.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095443#Comment_4095443
To be fair, it's how it's used.
Here's an old thread where I have a story where the killer used those mechanics both non toxic and toxic.
It only depends on how it's used because people have equated it with toxicity lol
If it were normalized to expect the killer to want to prioritize people closer to death, and for survivors to know this and play accordingly, you wouldn't have people who tunnel with the clear intention of trying to upset you.
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I mean it doesn't help that the community has equated intended game mechanics with toxicity.
A significant number of players consider tunneling, slugging, and flashlight blinds to be toxic.
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After playing as and against Jason a lot, at this point I'm of the opinion that his main problem is the Thrill/Ruin build. Which, hey, that appears to be what Hens is running
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@Yamalive said:
So you never had the thought that cake rates in previous years were just absurdly high? You think its fine to still carry many of them after a year? Its funny how people just accept being oversaturated with something as normal.
I did, actually.
I was shocked they gave us that many.
You know what it did?
It made me feel like BHVR was a pretty cool company. It made me feel like they valued us a customers to be so generous with an item like that. It made me feel like all of their missteps when it comes to balancing this game to be enjoyable for both sides were just the fumbling efforts of a development team trying its best when there are 0 other games like it for them to learn from and copy. It made me feel like at the end of the day, they wanted us to have fun playing their game.
It made me more willing to spend money on the game. I would actually buy every chapter with real money because I wanted to support the developers and the game.
But not anymore. Any cosmetic or character I can avoid spending real money on, I will. I have hundreds of thousands of banked iridescent shards due to the fact I never actually spent them on new chapters. I'm not quitting as I still enjoy the game, but they'll be getting less of my money now.
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The only killer who I've found is in any way more enjoyable in the event mode is Vecna.
That's… D&D Vecna, I mean. The poison synergizes pretty well with Mage Hand.
Henry is painful in the event mode.