ZaKzan
ZaKzan
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There has been plenty of well thought out posts and videos about this game that a plethora of players have spent a lot of time and effort writing out and producing. The devs of this game intentionally ignore most of it. They are also intentionally opaque and dismissive when it comes to discussions about balance decisions and reasons certain things are changed. When they talk about the state of the game and balance issues, they state it in a matter-of-fact way, implying that there's no way they can be wrong about it, and since they are so opaque about data regarding these decisions, we don't know if they're intentionally misleading or telling the truth. Difficult criticism of the game is almost completely ignored and in some cases, moderated. There isn't very good communication within BHVR, and we see that periodically in their patch releases, where they will sometimes say contradictory things, and as far as communication with the community, like I said, they are quite opaque about their inner workings, which leads to obvious issues and general mistrust in the community.
There seems to be a culture at BHVR that heavily resists community feedback, and the only way they're going to start to listen is if they're hit in their wallets, which is thankfully starting to happen.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1854610#Comment_1854610
What lmao?
How is it balanced around the top 1% of killers?
The top 1% of killers are actually good.
Almo specifically said that they make balance changes based off of the top 1% of killers. The obvious issue here is whether or not they take the top 1% of survivors into account as well. A top 1% killer vs a team of bottom 25% survivors is probably going to result in the killer winning.
@EuphoricBliss35 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1854610#Comment_1854610
The game isn’t meant to be taken seriously. It’s meant to be more chill and casual. It’s not an esport
All games that pit one human against another human or team of humans are competitive by nature. Name a single game in all of human history, including non-video games that pits two or more people against each other that isn't competitive. Where there is competition and PvP, there is always a hunger for balance, and that hunger for balance tends to favor skillful play, not cheesy game mechanics. Meritocratic systems are by definition fair for all involved, as the difference between two players isn't their ability to exploit game imbalances, but their skill levels.
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@Seanzu said:
Implying the game be balanced around "1%" of survivors is ridiculous, especially considering you're probably not even in the top "1%" of killers, so wanting the game to be easier for you because one percent of survivors that are "the best" is just beyond sane.
And you want this game to be easy for survivors, since it's balanced around the top 1% of killers. Your argument is hypocritical.
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Their system to determine skill is flawed, and any data they extrapolate from such a flawed system is going to be flawed and meaningless. What is a top 1% killer anyway? Do they define a top killer by number of kills? What about gens done, or chases that end in a down.
The problem becomes substantially worse if you put survivors into the equation, what is bad for the individual survivor can be good for the survivor team. This is the basis for why they said OoO is fine, because it does not alter individual survivor survival rates, but it certainly alters survivor team survival rates, as OoO encourages tunneling on the individual survivor.
They have admitted themselves that they don't know what constitutes skill on their game, and because of that, there is no way to gauge killer performance or even survivor performance. At rank 1 killer I run into rank 1 survivors that absolutely decimate me, and then I run into rank 1 survivors that can barely get 10% of 1 gen done before I 4k them. Most games are somewhat inbetween these two extremes, but the problem is that bad survivors are skewing the statistics. If I run into a team of halfway decent survivors with one or two good survivors, I'm getting a 1-2k most of the time. And by most of the time, it's like 80% of the time.
Survivors overperform when they know what do to, and killers overperform when survivors don't know what to do. Most survivors don't know what to do, it's not that killers are too powerful, it's that the game doesn't do enough to force survivors to play better. You don't need to know how to run a killer as a survivor, all you need to do is learn how to stay on gens and hide, and this is a glaring problem. You don't NEED to interact with the killer as a survivor, but as a killer, you NEED to interact with all the survivors.
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@brokedownpalace said:
I'm almost certain they've said the kill rate data they show us does not include DCs. I'm not sure why everyone is acting like it's fact that DCs are included.
and how many of those kills were because of stupid team mates? There's so many factors to account for here that just looking at killer performance isn't enough.
Did the individual survivor kill themselves on hook?
Did another survivor attempt a save in front of the killer's face?
Did the other survivor unhook then hide from the killer, forcing a tunnel?
Was the survivor any good at the game? How about their team mates?
Considering how easy it is to be carried to red ranks by other survivors and how easy it is to rank up, my guess is that at least half the kills in red ranks done by killers can be attributed to survivors that don't deserve to be in red ranks to begin with. Anecdotally, I can also see this in my games, some games I'll face a team of good survivors, some it only takes 1 or 2 bad players to snowball in my favor.
They have a very flawed system in place to determine skill, and because of this fundamental failure, any information extrapolated from such a system will be flawed and will not tell them anything meaningful, most especially considering player skill and what the top players are. It's the same reason why they said OoO was fine, because it doesn't necessarily give the individual survivor more survival rate, but they failed to mention the impact on the rest of the team. OoO is certainly a skill that will favor the team over the individual as it will get the killer's attention, and also encourages tunneling the OoO survivor.
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looking at such generalized stats as escapes without other details is utterly pointless and largely the reason why this game is so unbalanced in the first place
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@EuphoricBliss35 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1842119#Comment_1842119
The issue as killer is not being significantly better than the survivor team. It doesn’t take much of any skill vs. your average survivor team. Even better than average teams. Because cheap tactics work (slugging, camping, hook standoffs, etc) as solo teams don’t have awareness that (a) comms provide (b) what their team is running perk wise (c) team tendencies, even off comms.
The difference is, a lot of killers think they are better than they are, because very good teams are rare.
Nerfing loops further than they already have been is not a good idea. Especially with all these massive dead zones that exist in new maps.
Killers have this entitlement idea that EVERY killer in the game should be able to take out EVERY survivor/team just as well. I mean, if I want to race a Lamborghini, I’m not gonna show up in a Focus.
Ideally, a more skilled killer should be able to take out lesser skilled survivors. When you play the game a lot, especially as killer, you can tell when a survivor is good or bad. More often than not, bad survivors get carried by the 1 or 2 other good survivors on their team.
It's not even about nerfing all loops, just the ones that are broken, which there are many. It's fun playing an unsafe loop, because the safety of that particular loop is primarily decided by the skill level of the two players playing it, the killer or the survivor. The safe loops are just unfun boring gameplay where you are forced to go through the motions until the loop is completed by the survivor. There's an optimal path for the survivor to take and an optimal path for the killer to take, after that the loop is successfully negotiated for both parties. There's no play it in it, there's no risk and reward, there's no variability.
Slugging and camping are against the survivor rulebook and are thus frowned upon. I don't know why you are arguing that all killers should be balanced around slugging and camping, when that is very unfun gameplay from both sides.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1842119#Comment_1842119
Maybe the strongest swfs should be toned down in ways like this but it sounds like a very dangerous path to take. It'd be very easy to basicalyl remove all the skill from surviovr doing this, makign all teams seem very similar if not the same and making the game quite boring.
Deathsquads aren't that powerful when they are matched up with their sweatlord killer counterparts, slugging nurses, stridor spirits etc. In those cases the games actually become quite balanced.
No, it wouldn't be removing the skill from the survivors, it would be removing broken game mechanics that are exploited by high skill survivors. When you get the strongest players in the game playing the strongest killers in the game against the strongest survivors in the game, you get 1-2 kill games. See Hexy's tournament. It's also apparent when streamers that have played for thousands of hours just get demolished by a team of survivors.
On equal footing at higher skill levels, survivors destroy killers handedly. The amount of time it takes to catch higher skilled survivors is far beyond what it takes for survivors to complete 5 gens and open the exit gates. It's really not even close. When you get one of the strongest players in the game playing nurse and the fact that even with good luck they can only hope for a 2k, there's a severe problem with game balance at high levels.
There is, on the other hand, quite a disparity between survivors who are unskilled and survivors who are skilled. This is also evidence of how poorly balanced the game is at higher levels. There are very few mid-level survivors, because survivors are bad until the game clicks for them, then they're quite good. The majority of survivors are either very good or very bad at the game.
All of this does make sense because the game is balanced around mid level play where survivors still don't know efficient pathing or looping and killers dominate. Spreadsheets aren't going to show major balance issues at high levels of play, the devs don't play the game at a high level, nor do they take much advice from people who do
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It's not about making killers stronger, it's about fine tuning the game so that deathsquads aren't as powerful.
There are ways to balance a game without destroying all levels of play. Altering tile efficiency and pathing is one such way, as lower skilled survivors aren't taking advantage of every step they take like higher skilled ones are. A change like this, for example, would better balance high level play and have little to no effect on low level play. Altering the strength of adjacent tiles to already strong tiles is also another such way, as lower skill survivors will just run through and throw pallets, while the higher skill survivors can efficiently loop 3-5 gens on some tile chains.
The changes that can be made require a deep knowledge of the game, as the devs don't play the game to such a level, they need to acquire the knowledge of high level players.
This particular clip is the best example of what I'm talking about. The BASE jumper in TF2 was altered in such a way that reduced its effectiveness in the hands of good players, but bad players weren't using it in that way, so it didn't really effect bad players.
https://youtu.be/X1p42KtZOCw?t=206"It was causing way too many problems in the hands of someone who could use it to its full potential"
The issue with DBD is that as a killer, you need to be significantly better than the survivor team to have a chance against them. Given equal skill levels (at higher levels of play) survivors mop the floor with killers. This is a problem. The other issue is that this game is so badly designed for high level play that one side usually just snowballs which leads to unfun gameplay for the majority of the match. The vast majority of matches are decided within the first 2-3 minutes of the game, then the rest of the match just becomes dull.
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One of the worst things about DS is just how strong it is, as long as at least 1 player is running it in a match. If one player is running it in a match, they get the obsession, when there's an obsession, I have to tailor my entire playstyle to the assumption that all players are running DS. This effectively gives the other 3 survivors an extra perk, giving them 5 perks in all.
This is something that the devs cannot understand, because it takes actually playing the game and being good at it to get, and it's something that a spreadsheet won't tell them. It's the same thing with OoO and their lame excuse as to why OoO is fine, ya it may not improve survival chances of the individual survivor running it, but it vastly improves the survival rate of the other 3 survivors in the game.
It's nice that the devs stream their 2 hour gametime a week, but there are major balance issues at the higher end of the game that they are simply too inexperienced at the game to fully comprehend, and this lack of understanding is magnified by their utter refusal to listen to players that actually play their game. This actually explains basically every single design decision they make in regards to perks / addons / offerings / items and why these things are so inconsistent.
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the devs don't play this game at a high level and they mostly rely on spreadsheets to balance the game. Most of the playerbase is godawful. Killer is much stronger at lower levels as survivors don't know proper pathing or how to exploit tiles.
The game is balanced towards the majority of players. 80% of the playerbase are survivors. Survivors are also bad at low ranks.
When you get a team of high level survivors vs a high level killer playing one of the strongest killers in the game, the survivors will mop the floor with the killer. When you get roughly evenly matched teams fighting against one another, the uncontrollable variable is game mechanics. A competitive PvP game should always be balanced towards the higher end of play, because that makes it fair for all levels of play as the difference between two players is skill level and effort put forth, not exploits / gimmicks / game mechanics. There are also ways to balance the game that would have no effect on low level play because low level players simply aren't good enough to exploit the things that need to be balanced, so they're not even taking advantage of those things in the first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlKlpjc4aM -
considering they've been making blunder after blunder, 2021 is going to be make it or break it for dbd.
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The devs aren't survivor sided, they don't even play the game. They rely mostly on spreadsheets and statistics to balance out the game, which is why the game feels so bad on either side. It's just that the statistics and spreadsheets say that killer is overperforming.
Lots of modern game devs are guilty of this nowadays. You get balance changes to the game that statistically look really great, but feel like utter crap while playing the game, that's because the devs don't play the game that they spend 40 hours or more developing a week, and / or they don't consult players that actually play the game.
Two very great examples of this is the fact that the devs have stated in the past that clown is one of the stronger killers in the game and that players just haven't figured him out yet, and that OoO is not a problem perk. On paper and on spreadsheets, this is certainly the case, but when you actually get into the game and play it, these statements cannot be further from the truth.
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It's so funny how BHVR manages to make playing both killer and survivor so miserable. It's pretty hard to do that in a PvP game where one side wins and one side loses, but hats off to them for actually being able to pull it off.
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Even with gimmicks like daily login rewards and super secret codes that require you to log in to get, which artificially inflates steam charts numbers, DBD is still losing players, most notably during the single most important month for DBD, October.
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1783228#Comment_1783228
I think... They Probably..... I guess he only thinks but he has no proof. this is in the first 30 seconds. and the devs refuted his video don't need to listen again
It is a FACT that they used blueprints to code the game.
The point of contention is whether or not that's what's causing the bugs.
Considering blueprints aren't generally used for big games, and the fact that they've come out and said that they're transitioning to C++ points to the 'spaghetti code' problem. It's called critical thinking. Blueprints aren't designed to be for games as big as DBD, they are a quick way to make a cheap game, they aren't made for large games. DBD is BHVR's only big game, they had no funding to afford good devs nor take the time to make a proper game. Since these blueprints are the foundation of the game, they make the game very buggy, which it is. It makes sense.
I would say watch the video, but it's clear that you're only capable of hearing what you want to hear.
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1782690#Comment_1782690
I didn't say i did not understand him, but his first opening paragraph he speaks he admits he is guessing at all of this and that's why I turned it off. I know programming in basic, cobol, fortrain, c, c+, c++, java and many other languages as I have programed in them. I even have programmed in machine code and assembly and used a command line environment to program routers and other devices. so I understood what he was going to try to say, but when he admitted it's guess work I turned it off because it is not proof to have someone guess at what is happening.
Except that he doesn't say that. You seem to be having troubles understanding exactly what he's saying, which could be remedied by actually watching the video.
They do or have used blueprints. They have not come out and said that their use of blueprints is why DBD is so buggy. This is why you should actually watch the video, not turn it off after 5 seconds, because it's making you look like a fool. But hey, keep thinking you know what you're talking about.
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1781939#Comment_1781939
the first words out of his mouth killed the video in being anything REALISTIC. he has no clue what they have done, what they are doing nor how it was done. he is 100% guessing. i'd love to see you top that, please show your source code that you have of DBD and tell us where or how you got it for proof. I am certain the devs would love to know more. you obviously don't know what the game is like, you ONLY expect it's like someone else you like. once he said he didn't know anything at all i turned it off because at that time it turned into a "I am going to make ######### up because I want people to agree with me and my argument since it's the same as others!" yea not reliable at all, now I did not say this person didn't know coding, I am only talking about his knowledge about dead by daylight. WEEE great proof for your theory.
Because of this *I DO* hope it wins this year so we can listen to everyone say it was rigged! lol
You would have to understand basic coding and the unreal engine to understand why what he says is mostly correct. If you actually watched the video, he points to the devs stating in one of the devblogs that they were working on moving away from the blueprint system and working on replacing it with C++
It is also the reason why they come out with a patch that changes billy, and the hill gets bugged for example. In the blueprint system, seemingly unrelated things are tied together because of how it is designed, so if you change one thing you create a cascade effect that can ruin other things down the line.
You probably shouldn't get so defensive, especially considering that you didn't even watch the video nor did you give the material any considerable thought.
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there's enough perks currently that can be meta shifting if they were just tweaked
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@Tubby_Squirrel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1781917#Comment_1781917
Oh neet! Do you code addons for the game or something like that? What language does it use?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1781911#Comment_1781911
body blocking does not work against survivors with a brain
enduring and spirit fury do not work all the time and can be countered by dropping pallet early. it also takes two perk slots to fix the looping issue of legion
come on please, give me some more basic common tips, i really need them so i can justify playing legion over blight
most survivors are braindead
fortunately not every pallet is positioned in a way that the survivor can get to the next pallet before you are able to swing into it to get spirit fury value
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the vast majority of their time is spent on new content. There's no time to fix existing bugs before more bugs are implemented into the game. DBD isn't coded very well to begin with, so this makes it even harder to properly fix
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@[Deleted User] said:
Yeah but i don't get why you would say they have to sweat to outplay you with legion included.
Killer has no chase power after first injury, which gives him decisive strike stun.
That contradicts your second sentence. Legion has no power to outplay at a loop or avoid loops. Could you explain?
hit survivor, use burst of speed to catch up to survivor, bodyblock survivor, come out of frenzy, down them. Legion can work just like wraith does, you can use your ability to negate the burst of speed survivors get after hitting them.
For pallets, you use enduring and spirit fury.
If survivors stay injured, you rely on m1 with enduring and spirit fury. If you spot injured survivors from far away, you frenzy to catch up to them then you bodyblock them as much as you can and then exit frenzy
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He doesnt need fixed. I don't like facing huntress or hag, I'm not actively trying to change how they're played.
Just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it's not fun for the other person. This is a PvP game, there is always going to be give and take in terms of fun. I find winning fun, should the devs change the game so that I win every game?
The premise is just so absurd and unhealthy for a video game, especially a PvP video game. If you don't like facing him, just do what all the other survivors do when the game doesn't fit them, suicide on hook or dc.
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@TheButcher said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1766130#Comment_1766130
Legion doesn't get any additional speed from Bloodlust while using his ability. Specifically Bloodlust does not work with Killer's power.
Use legion ability -> hit survivor -> come out of ability / be stunned -> bloodlust timer starts -> catch up with survivor -> 5-8 seconds later bloodlust kicks in -> down survivor. This is especially effective against better survivors as they will use the speed burst from the initial hit to run to a strong tile, you can circumvent the strength of the tile or force them to throw the pallet with bloodlust.
I really don't understand why people think the bonus gained from bloodlust happens in a vacuum. If you know how to play the game, you can utilize bloodlust to position yourself more favorably in order to land your killer powers.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1768131#Comment_1768131
Ruin undying can be exploited cause u can run it on blight/billy/nurse, find 3 gens and literalyl prevent them from ever popping.
That would also require the totems spawning around the 3 gens so that the killer can protect them. Also, even with ruin, gen regression tick rate is still less than survivor progress tickrate, so if the survivors work together, they can definitely repair one of those last 3 gens.
Even in your very specific very rare situation, there is counterplay to ruin and undying. I don't think you understand what the word exploit means, in the context of DBD it means using a perk in a way that it is not intended to be used. Both decisive strike and bt were intended to be used as defensive perks, which is why they're so strong. They can very easily be used as offensive perks to give survivors free time, and there isn't a way to counter these perks for the killer. Killer can't stop people from unhooking in front of their face, nor can they prevent the unhooked survivor from diving into them and bodyblocking them, forcing the killer to hit them.
There really is no way for any hex perk to be exploited, unless the killer is able to choose where the totems spawn or has some way to put the totems out of reach for the survivors. Totems will always have counterplay, and that's a poor comparison to perks like DS and BT that cannot be countered by the killer. In your example, the survivors have to mess up by allowing the killer to do a 3 gen strategy, then the killer has to be lucky in having his totems within the range of the 3 gens, and he has to be lucky in that the survivors don't find the totems during the match. Survivors just need to run DS and BT to get the full value out of their perks.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767992#Comment_1767992
The fact that you think everyone plays like you shows how inexperienced YOU are with the game.
Not everyone uses BT and DS offensively, some people just want to live longer.
It's insurance for some, everyone has different playstyles, just because Bloodlust was removed doesn't mean everyone uses it, I'm a Nurse main and a Rank 1 survivor and I'm in full support of Bloodlust.
"When I'm unhooked with BT, I dive towards the killer to take the hit for the survivor that just unhooked me, that gives me enough time, with another crutch like dead hard"
Just because you do it, doesn't mean the next person does.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/P9NP0SQXK9VC/duudh-png.png
It's bad game design to implement perks that can be abused or exploited.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
DS and BT have nothing to do with bloodlust.
It's simply going for someone else, why are you around the hook if you're procing BT?
Why are you going for this specific survivor who was unhooked if you're so phobic about DS? Go for someone else.
Stop proxy camping, stop camping, go for someone else and patrol gens.
The removal of those perks have nothing to do with Bloodlust, and I support Bloodlust as well.
So please, stop making it an Us vs. Them type of deal, because it isn't.
DS and BT work in the same way that bloodlust works.
"why are you around the hook?" When I have BT, what I do is I beeline to the survivor that's downed. Then I can stealth and immediately unhook while I'm in the killer's radius. This is the way BT can be abused.
When I'm unhooked with BT, I dive towards the killer to take the hit for the survivor that just unhooked me, that gives me enough time, with another crutch like dead hard, to get to anywhere in the map if the killer decides to tunnel me. This allows me to get to any of the plethora of strong tiles in the game.
There are ways to use DS and BT offensively, and the fact that you don't understand this shows your inexperience with the game.
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I just use afk killers as an excuse to find map exploits. 10/10 reworked map btw
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@kolosovski said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767215#Comment_1767215
Ok kid I get it, you are always right and everyone else is always wrong. Keep making up those facts, very mature of you. If you are so sure that's how bloodlust affects powers, then it's certainly not me who doesn't know how the game works. Great argumentation by the way. Have a nice sunday.
You do know that bloodlust gives hillbilly and leatherface movespeed right?
You chase survivor with them until you get to the point where you can chain saw them / curve. Since bloodlust gives these killers movespeed, they can more quickly get to that perfect point where they are able to chainsaw survivors before survivors can vault / throw a pallet / turn a corner.
I really don't understand what you're not getting. Bloodlust affects hillbilly and leathface until they use their powers. That means they can utilize bloodlust to put themselves into a better position than normal. It's why particularly leatherface can utilize play with your food. You don't seem to understand that bloodlust can be used on these killers to get downs with their powers. A quarter of a second means a survivor can turn a corner or even vault a window or throw a pallet, meaning no down. If you gain that fraction of a second over a chase and then saw them at the perfect time, they are downed. This is the difference between you winning and them gaining the distance they need to chain pallets and windows, forcing you to abandon chase.
Just because they can't bloodlust through their powers doesn't mean that you can't use bloodlust to use their powers more effectively, since bloodlust can be utilized to achieve the right position in order for their powers to be used to down people.
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@kolosovski said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767080#Comment_1767080
Bloodlust can be used to close the distance before attacking on any killer, yes. I did not said that otherwise anywhere and that was not your original claim. You are just trying to find errors in my reply by making them up.
I simply stated the fact that it does not affects a killer power at all as you claimed "Hillbilly gains from bloodust as he is able to make curves with it better, same with leatherface." Bloodlust has no offect on the ability to make curves in either killer. It does not makes the chainsaw animation faster or different at all, that is all I said.
It's amazing that someone who wants to discuss the bloodlust mechanic does not even know precisely how it works.
I meant exactly what I said.
You can reach the perfect point where you can curve with bloodlust faster than without it. You can reach the point where you can safely chainsaw as leatherface faster with bloodlust than without it. This is the difference between downing a survivor and getting map pressure to win the game, and absolutely losing the game with a 0k.
Do you not understand how fractions of a second matter in this game? That's why dead hard is such a strong perk. The issue isn't that I don't know how bloodlust works, the issue is that you don't know how the game works.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767194#Comment_1767194
"You do know that if MMR takes account of the emblem system, chases are 25% of the emblems you can earn."
Right, and?
"With bloodlust, you can secure your 3k and 4k much easier because you don't need to worry about gens being rushed, and if there's 2 survivors left you can make the conscious choice to guarantee a 3k instead of risking a 2k by utilizing bloodlust 3. So I got a 2k, and I can pad my stats by guaranteeing a 3k through bloodlust 3, does this make me a 3k killer in terms of MMR?"
Your calling "Achieving the only victory condition of the killer as "padding your stats."
Again, that is like saying, after you take most of your opponent's pieces in chess, that your going to 'pad your stats' by getting a checkmate.
An MMR system that assumes players playing intelligently are 'bad players' because you think a tool they are using to do it is unfair is the height of silliness and is absolutely not how MMR systems are designed because doing so results in MMR systems that 'lie' about how good players are.
If a killer plays exceptionally well to the point *the survivors cannot possibly escape them* which allows them to burn 30+ seconds of time on a single chase? That isn't 'padding stats' and trying to pretend that killer is 'bad' for focusing down survivors is downright silly. Your acting like the killer didn't 'earn' the last two kills when they absolutely clearly did, or that they shouldn't tunnel down survivors when the survivors aren't pressuring gens.
Again, pressure management is like... the foundational mechanic of all of killer play. Your imagining that a good killer is one who can close loops quickly but that absolutely isn't the case, which is why its ONLY 25% of the ranking system that deals directly with winning chases, and, again, that emblem deliberately was designed to not punish killers who couldn't fully down a survivor quickly because that is ultimately not a super critical killer skill in the grand scheme of killer gameplay.
"This game is not chess, and comparing it to chess is meaningless, since there is a clear win condition in chess."
There is a clear win condition in DBD!
Furthermore, the Chess ELO system is the basis for most ranking systems in the world for a reason: it doesn't CARE if its chess or not. It cares about win rates and loss rates (And you can do more to 'add onto' it, but its ALWAYS based on 'after the fact' information).
Hatch exists, so do keys.
In a 2k situation, I can either try to kill the last two survivors, allowing them time to do gens or find keys, or I can guarantee a kill against one survivor by bloodlusting them. If bloodlust didn't exist, my 3k would be less of a guarantee, as it is quite easy to run a killer in a 2k situation for long enough for the other player to do gens, taking advantage of near infinites which are plentiful in our current game state.
The killer hasn't earned a 4k if they get a 2k in a reasonable amount of time. Since hatch exists, the odds of even getting a 4k are very highly stacked against the killer. You can hide all game as survivor and just wait for hatch to spawn, according to an MMR system, that would be skillful play.
There actually is no clear cut win condition in DBD. The devs have stated that a 2k is generally a tie, but the emblem system does not reflect this. You can get a 4k and depip / black pip, being a huntress main, a good 30-40% of my games end like this. According to the emblem system, I'm a low skilled killer. If MMR is weighted against both emblems and kills, there's a disparity.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767150#Comment_1767150
We can be fairly sure that the MM system isn't looking 'inside the game' because that isn't how MM systems generally work.
ELO and other skill rating systems deliberately avoid looking 'inside' the games and making assumption about skill because these simple algorithms can't make judgement calls on when something was a good idea. For example, in GENERAL, taking powerful pieces early in Chess means your a stronger player, but there are so many situations where good players will willingly 'trade down' in order to get a better position that trying to evaluate how good a player is using that metric *at all* is a very bad one.
Instead, ELO systems and the like look at the end result and how consistently you can achieve it. If you can, by definition your a strong player, and you don't need to program an algorithm that can evaluate nuanced high level strategies of a complex game to do it.
In the case of DBD, ELO evaluating chase time or how often you win chases as a method of determining how good a killer you are would be bad because, again, it assumes an instrumental goal done in play is the goal that is being optimized. But killers aren't optimizing how often they win chases each match, they are trying to win the match overall via kills or the emblem system. So we can be fairly sure that is what the MMR system values. Otherwise you will get the MMR system saying things like 'This killer chased two survivors, and only downed one" or 'This killer chased a survivor and then broke off when they got to a jungle gym and realized they were being baited off the gens, losing the chase" which will result in it assuming highly skilled killers doing things like pressuring multiple survivors at once or maintaining pressure on gens at the expense of losing a chase are 'bad killers' when in reality these are high skill plays.
The game already has (helpfully numerical) scores to track how good you did as a killer that don't assume things about your playstyle: Emblems and, to a lesser extent, kills vs escape rates. We can assume the MMR system is valuing those two things.
You do know that if MMR takes account of the emblem system, chases are 25% of the emblems you can earn.
I also brought that up as one possibility among many. Bloodlust certainly affects kill rates as I have pointed out.
With bloodlust, you can secure your 3k and 4k much easier because you don't need to worry about gens being rushed, and if there's 2 survivors left you can make the conscious choice to guarantee a 3k instead of risking a 2k by utilizing bloodlust 3. So I got a 2k, and I can pad my stats by guaranteeing a 3k through bloodlust 3, does this make me a 3k killer in terms of MMR?
Lets say that the system weighs emblems more than kills. If I down all survivors at the start of a match and kill them all, am I a bad killer? According to the emblem system I am, even though I was so good, I decimated an entire team.
This game is not chess, and comparing it to chess is meaningless, since there is a clear win condition in chess.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/207770/the-reason-why-bloodlust-was-removed
This isn't how MMR works.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1766111#Comment_1766111
This REALLY isn't how MMR works.
Bloodlust alters both chase times and kills. This is especially true when there's 1-2 survivors, giving the killer much more killing efficiency than they should have and padding their stats, leading to weird matchmaking.
While it is true that bloodlusting will lose the killer the game, it is not true at lower skill levels, and it is also not true when the killer uses it to zone out survivors to guarantee a kill. We have no idea how MMR was calculated, but if it was calculated through chase times, this would lead to less chase time as the killer would have to ultimately spend more time downing the survivor chasing them normally instead of bloodlusting at a single tile, if it was calculated through kills, this would give a killer an unfair kill, which would skew their skill level.
Chasing down one survivor, bloodlusting them, then hooking them and camping them until they died is not skillful, but according to an MMR system based around chasing and killing, it would be. Bloodlust also affects certain killers differently, which also makes things much worse in terms of determining player skill. Trapper relies more heavily on bloodlust than nurse does, but a 3k trapper and a 3k nurse are the same in the MM's eyes. Remove bloodlust and that same trapper is now a 2k trapper and the nurse still a 3k nurse.
Please explain how bloodlust would not affect MMR.
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@kolosovski said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1766130#Comment_1766130
Bloodlust resets when a killer uses his power, hits a target or breaks a pallet. So it has no effect during any of the killer powers you mentioned.
As to the topic, I don't think there is any kind of MMR currently. I don't know why they are experiments with that mechanic, I think it's fine the way it is.
Bloodlust can be used to close enough distance for either billy or leatherface to chainsaw. If not, they can m1. To argue that they do not benefit from bloodlust is plain wrong.
It's amazing that people don't understand how strong movespeed is in this game, nor do they understand how to utilize it. There's a reason why play with your food is so strong on leatherface.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1766198#Comment_1766198
I asked for evidence, not words. Got any hard data?
Anything more I say is subject to NDA, so I can't really.
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@MadLordJack said:
Alright. Evidence to support your argument?
I've been getting MMR-like MM at rank 1 the past few days, and so have many other people. There is absolutely positively zero reason to remove bloodlust for a couple days and tell people about it. It's like finding out how many times a coin will land on heads, but only flipping it 5 times. It's meaningless. They're testing out an MMR system without bloodlust. It also makes more sense than just removing bloodlust for a weekend out of the blue.
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1766111#Comment_1766111
That only applies "in theory"
And its a bad theory, since some killers gain nothing from bloodlust (nurse, huntress, legion, hillbilly, leatherface, spirit, cowboy.) Other M1 killers gain from bloodlust. Its not an adequate element of how skilled the player is for MMR or otherwise especially if some killers just downright ignore its existence.
Legion's ability synergizes with bloodlust. Hillbilly gains from bloodust as he is able to make curves with it better, same with leatherface.
Spirit deathslinger and huntress have ways to determine skill.
Bloodlust will certainly pad a player's stats. It's true that it affects killers differently, but that's the problem, it's a wildcard variable.
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Reminder that someone at BHVR thought it was a good idea to greenlight the Billy addon that would increase your movespeed while you're being flashlighted.
Also not to mention a plethora of addons for killers that make them essentially useless or otherwise make no sense, including pink addons.
Also not to mention them saying OoO was fine and Clown is a top tier killer and players aren't playing him right.
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The devs have no idea how to measure in the game, and they are not very good at designing balanced maps. See the MMR implementation and how much of a failure that was, despite it running in the background for 3 months.
If you are bloodlusting, you are already losing the game. Bloodlust is there to make up for poor map design in very specific spots, like a junk tile spawning right next to a jungle gym window creating almost an infinite.
Until the devs start playing the game or taking advice from people that do, the algorithm that determines tile placement is always going to be flawed, and a band aid like bloodlust will always be needed, to make up for lack of understanding of how the game plays, especially at higher skill levels.
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SWF isn't prevalent enough to matter, but if you remove SWF you will kill the game.
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perfect time to blow my iri heads
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it's almost impossible to bloodlust in tier 1 with shape because survivors can just outrun you. The radius to lose chase is also much less as well.
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Bloodlust has no effect on high level play, and it will decimate low level play, so lower ranked survivors will have fun waiting 30 minutes for a match. Without fixing the fundamental issues with the game, removing bloodlust is just going to drive players away.
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Bloodlust was added to combat infinites. They initially took out infinites, but they've added them back in the game with the option of breaking a wall to take out the infinite, reducing killer efficiency.
Map design is still atrocious. The devs haven't really learned anything because they don't play the game at a high level nor do they listen to players that do, they only rely on spreadsheets, which is why the game is so bad to play at higher levels on both sides.
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@narf said:
I'll just put this out there. If you don't want people to call him a baby and call the animation "kicking the baby", then you probably shouldn't make it look like survivors are kicking a tiny human. And saying things like "but he's not a baby, look at the lore" is invalid because people have nicknames for things. It doesn't matter if he's a baby, people associate his physique with a baby.
Is this the year 1997? Do we really still think that things in a game translate to real life behaviour?
Depictions of child abuse are a very serious matter, and also potentially a matter of law as the image could be construed as 'Obscene'
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1762421#Comment_1762421
Child or deformed human, not a baby. He is not crawling out of a female but they are conjoined twins that can separate thanks to the ability the Entity granted them.
addons can just be something important out of their past.
pls inform yourself how a human baby looks like and then compare that to Victor.
You don't get to tell people what they see when they look at an image or a depiction. The portions are similar, victor is hairless, their addons refer to baby toys like toy swords. Victor's voice is chibi'd, sounding very child like. He looks like a demon baby.
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It's a small humanoid body that crawls out of a female. Regardless of what it is, it resembles a baby. It even screams like a baby. The addons for the twins are things like toys, which also point to victor being a baby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZofo-gnsIg -
Noed really isn't a problem, you sacrifice one perk slot to get 1 kill at the end of the game, if you're lucky.
With ruin and undying, people are doing bones now more than ever, so there's even a less chance that you will get noed at the end of the game.
killers run noed to lose the game, but at least get one kill. It's not a strong perk and it has plenty of counterplay.
DS / unbreakable / DH are much stronger unfair perks, as they have very few counters. DS and UB combined do not have a single counter in the entire game. DH, when played right, is, by intention of the perk itself, unable to be countered.
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@brokedownpalace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760861#Comment_1760861
I mean just because that's all Ethan mentioned doesn't mean that's all they've checked. There's also a big difference because they're looking to change a huge mechanic in the game AND running a population wide experiment that you can't opt out from. I'm pretty sure they're going to look at a lot of stats.
It gives an insight to their thinking, which shows that they don't spend much time playing the game and feeling it for themselves, relying on spreadsheets and statistics for balancing the game. Then they just flat out ignore players that do play the game. This is primarily why this game has so many unfun features for both killers and survivors. These features certainly do not play a significant role in the overall balance of the game, but they are things that affect player retention. They're also not very good at talking to a large group of people and addressing concerns.
3 days is not enough to get any truly meaningful statistics. Changing bloodlust will change how players play the game. I guarantee whatever effect they get from the 3 days would absolutely level out over time. It's like trying to figure out the chances of a coin landing on heads, but you only flip it 5 times. It's just a waste of time and there are many other very serious issues with this game that they could be focusing on at the moment, especially issues related to sound and visuals and performance.