ZaKzan
ZaKzan
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actually it doesn't matter what you think or what any non-dev thinks about the matter, it only matters what the devs think about it since they are ultimately the ones who allow the behavior.
here's a really good video on a bit more of a broader subject, but related.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zefiICD_2d4 -
about half the time you camp / tunnel, other survivors pick that up and start making stupid plays to save the person you're camping or tunneling, which turns a 1k into a 2k-4k.
if you're good enough, you can also hook trade with the person trying to unhook the hooked survivor, gaining a ton of points.
It's not really about fun at this point. Killers have got shafted with the last 2-3 balance patches pretty hard, it's the only way most killers can secure kills now since it takes an absolute herculean effort to kill according to the survivor rulebook.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1173062#Comment_1173062
There’s several killers that can end chases quickly: Nurse and Clown immediately come to mind. They have regular movement speed as well.
High mobility is strong but being overrated.
nurse is still quite strong and clown cannot stop survivors from vaulting / throwing pallets. Doctor's AoE attack is also quite good since it helps him locate survivors quicker.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
If quick traveling is so important, why is Doctor so competitive?
because he can keep survivors from vaulting or throwing pallets, significantly reducing the time of chases, which is the whole reason why high mobility killers are so good.
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Survivors have been coddled since the creation of this game, reinforcing their sense of entitlement.
The theme of the game is a killer toying with their prey, there's even perks that quite literally say this (play with your food) but the reality is that survivors have been designed to be so strong that when you spend enough time playing and learning survivor, you can get to the point where a killer just simply cannot catch you without losing the game. The inverse is not true, in that good survivors will always wreck a good killer with the best killers in the game forcing one, maybe two kills against a team of the best survivors.
The simple answer is that the reason people abuse you is because they are allowed to abuse you. The ones with the power to change it and ban people have stated that they allow this type of abuse, so there's nothing you can do about it.
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the game started off very heavily survivor sided and it still is quite heavily survivor sided. Ideally survivors should be about 1/4 the power of the killer at their top, this is obviously not the case as survivors can run killers almost indefinitely, and this is compounded by the fact that 4 heads are better than one and the killer cannot chase all 4 survivors at once.
Stating buffs and nerfs is absolutely irrelevant. What is relevant is the amount of power killers have vs survivors, and the favor is objectively towards survivor. The devs have explicitly stated that the gameplay is tailored to low level players. At low levels, killers are extremely strong and survivors extremely weak.
This is not an opinion at all, it is an actual fact. The best survivors will win 99 times out of 100 against the best killers. There is absolutely nothing a killer can do against a hit squad of good survivors. The only 'balance' this game has is that since survivor is so easy to play and rank up, you get a massive amount of survivors with an inflated rank combined with good survivors of also the same rank and the killer can exploit the weaknesses of the 1-3 weak survivors to kill the good survivor.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1171362#Comment_1171362
I already said it that thematically it fits. GAMEPLAY WISE is different. You give a high mobility killer a passive, but not give bubba a buff. Get it?
but you said you're not talking about nerfs. Bubba's theme is that he can down multiple healthy survivors with one charge of his chainsaw, making him the only killer that can do so. I think oni can do it too, but it's very hard to achieve.
all of the killers have unique abilities that set them apart from the other killers that allow them to catch or trick survivors in some way.
I actually don't know what you mean, considering you aren't talking about nerfing certain killers.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1171105#Comment_1171105
I'm not asking for a goddamn nerf, I've already said that 5 fking times. I'm asking a QUESTION. WHY WAS THE PASSIVE PHASE ADDED TO SPIRIT.
why would a ghost killer named spirit be phasing in and out of reality?
intredasting question good sir.
I believe your question is best answered by asking another question: Have you ever seen ANY scary movie with ghosts in it?
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killers are not allowed to have fun on DBD, I'm pretty sure the devs have explicitly made this clear.
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@rhodamia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1165367#Comment_1165367
Correct. Which is reflected in the original post. Good survivors being above good killers (less survivor mistakes). Bad killers being above bad survivors (more survivor mistakes).
With the exception of Top Tier killers who can (if played flawlessly) be un-counterable by survivors.
You basically just reworded the post lol.
except that im saying good survivors are better than good nurses / billies / spirits
in fact, when this game came out, there was a little bit of an Esports following, and people were able to consistently beat old nurse, as she was the strongest pick back then for killer. The esports thing fizzled out mostly because of how ridiculously unbalanced this game is.
taken to the highest level, survivors can just draw the killer to a corner of the map, maximizing the distance between the nearest hooks.
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as a killer, even the strongest killers, you have to rely on survivors making mistakes for you to win. If you mess up a couple of blinks as nurse or do not predict accurately enough with spirit, you will lose against a team of good survivors. You have to play flawlessly or near flawlessly as a killer, and as a survivor you don't really need to play flawlessly since you can also run a plethora of second chance perks to make up for your mistakes.
Killer perk idea: Dead lunge. Every 40 seconds the killer can initiate a lunge with their basic attack that travels up to 3x the distance of a regular lunge.
The power role has always been and always will be the survivor. If you die as a survivor it's one of three things: The killer tunneled you, you made a mistake, your team mates are bad. A good killer is just someone who will capitalize the most from survivor mistakes. If the survivors do not make many mistakes, the killer loses.
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If you are a survivor and play flawlessly, the worst case scenario is that you die but your team mates escape.
If you are a killer and play flawlessly, you can go the whole game without killing anyone, only getting a few downs.
There is enough pallet and window chains to run a killer indefinitely, you do not even need to loop or juke, just run to a pallet and throw it down early, then run to the next pallet.
The game is balanced around the average survivor, not the average killer. The average survivor does not know maps well and does not know tiles well. You have to be both a master strategist and master psychologist to beat the best survivors as killer. As survivor, you just need to memorize the maps, the game gives you enough second chance perks to make up for 2-3 mistakes.
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actually, it's more of a way to mitigate the detrimental effects of the virus, perhaps allowing people to have a little more fun and be a little more comfortable in an otherwise stressful situation. You're just looking at this the wrong way.
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Survivor is too brain dead easy and boring to play. You have to intentionally handicap yourself and then grind your way up to the highest ranks to even get a small challenge.
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I think the funniest thing about nurse is that the devs reworked her without doing anything about the myriad of bugs associated with her.
They just nerfed her into the ground and then washed their hands of her.
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I laid out all this in this thread just after the dev blog came out, but people were quite adamant about how wrong I was
Really, the general playerbase deserves this for being so easily duped.
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you're used to hitscan, not projectiles, that's your problem.
with projectiles, you have to lead your targets
dbd is more comparable to TF2 / Overwatch / Paladins with characters with projectile weapons, not hitscan weapons.
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He's very good. He shuts down conventional survivor pathing and forces survivors to make mistakes. In a sense he is comparable to billy, he just doesn't have a one shot down.
He would be above billy if he could drag people across pallets
He's a high skill killer that severely punishes even missing once, so not many people will be good with him, even going forward.
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the survivors were bad. This is the highlight of the video. Otz should have got his 4k within the first few minutes of the game, he dominated this round. Saying 'oh well he still got his 4k' just shows how one dimensional a person's thought process is. It's the fact that he had to try to win the game when these survivors were absolute trash and they could have been 4k'd within a minute
This game allows a barely cognizant survivor the ability to last many times longer than they should against the best players in this game that play this game religiously for 6-8 hours or more a day. Otz getting a 4k is actually irrelevant to the conversation and the point. The game gave these survivors many chances to turn the game around. The game only gave Otz one chance to make a mistake.
A team of bad survivors should get stomped by a top tier killer player, and not in 10 minutes, in 1 minute. If these survivors were on Otz' level, he would not have been able to kill one of them.
It's a question of fairness. This game just shows that you don't really have to even think to be a survivor, just load up a bunch of second chance perks and you can just blast through games barely thinking and actually come out on top enough to face the top killers in the game.
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you don't need to loop the killer to allow your team mates to do all the gens. You can just run to a pallet, drop it early, then play it if the doctor doesn't break it. You can throw pallets early and you will have some left over after 5 gens, this game is not set up for survivors to lose. Throwing shack pallet early is also ok now, games are way too quick for the shack pallet to matter.
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it's not that hard to run perkless and itemless as a survivor. Once you watch a 10 minute video on tiles and how to negotiate them, you're good enough to run the killer effectively enough for the other survivors to do enough gens.
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red stain is vital for mindgames. Terror radius needs to be removed, or drastically lowered. The removal of the terror radius would fix a lot in this game and it would also increase the amount of scariness and add more jumpscares to it.
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Survivor gameplay and survivor pips are so braindead that it's putting survivors in much higher ranks than they should be, which ends up with games like this.
Seeing as you're only rank 11, wait til you hit rank 7 and onwards, you will exclusively get red rank teams, and they will be the strongest players in the game. At rank 4, the average playtime of survivors I play is 2000 hours.
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well, I did say this update was a buff for survivors, but people thought I was wrong.
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@Kongtwenty12 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1110472#Comment_1110472
Yes rank is meaningless. It's almost like they just changed how matchmaking works. Also your argument had nothing to do with the blood point economy. All you talked about where mechanics you know nothing about because apparently you think testing is pointless hence why your argument has no ground to stand on. The rest of us have been playing with the changes. All you did was read them without any numbers then start complaining.
Changes that effect items, which cost bloodpoints, are tied to the bloodpoint economy system. A system that is not able to be fully tested in a PTB environment. This should be common sense.
The PTB acts as a proof of concept test and to make sure there are no game breaking bugs. There's less people playing, less people caring about playing, and more rng in terms of team composition vs killer composition in relation to skill. If 80% of the games are players testing mostly the new perks and the new killer on mostly the new map, that is a substandard testing environment.
I don't know how you don't see this. I don't know how you don't see the PTB as being different from live. It's amazing.
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@Cable2486 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1107581#Comment_1107581
LMFAO. You're actually thinking you're still correct? Oh honey, sit down and save you statistics for someone else. Not only do the builds I use work, but they work because I'm not reliant on my perks to carry me. And that's your disconnect. You play the meta because you think it's the only way to win. And newsflash darling: there's no '3 seconds of invulnerability' to Dead Hard. Sorry to spoil it, but you have to come at me with more than angry theory. Seriously, do you actually play this game, or just read the wiki and hope you sound intelligent?
You're so one dimensional in your views you think the build and combinations I listed are o lyent to counter one item, perk, or instance. In fact, you're having an issue with my comments clear you're over-reliance on your perks tells me you can't play without them. Yes, they help shape gameplay, but they aren't the ONLY aspect. Sure BBQ and Iron Maiden only work a couple times. But throw in Nurses calling and use Wraith's Aura perks, and suddenly, it doesn't matter that much. Is it the most efficient? Probably not. Is it fun? Absolutely. You asked for counters, I provided them. You don't like them? Meh.
The problem we're also facing is that you seem to be laboring under the delusion that those are my main perks. They aren't. But you only want to see the meta because you're obsessed with 'consistant' wins. I win enough to put me at rank red ranks. I play the way I find amusing. But I also play nearly every Killer, so I'm more than well aware of what it takes to mix a power, add-ons, and perks to maximize they're effectiveness. But it's also way I win.
Survivors and Killers that stick to the meta are easy to screw with, and don't expect outside of meta plays. As I said in my last response, not all of these strategies are the most effective, nor do they always work. But you clearly glossed over that part. In fact, you'd prefer to call names and act superior because you're not getting your way. I doubt you play in even the purple ranks, and you most DEFINITELY can't play without perks to save you from the big, mean ole' Survivors.
So you admit these perk builds are meme builds and not tailored specifically to win consistently. You also admit these perk builds are not good counters. My point is proven.
Rank is meaningless and the fact that you latch onto that so tightly in your statements just hows how little experience you have with this game.
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@Kongtwenty12 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1108109#Comment_1108109
Your right the new map was made for breakable walls and the old ones aren't but they are in the process of reworking almost every map. Take lery's for example. If you look around the map you will see a lot of walls that have bricks revealed in that shape of a doorway that will likely become breakable in the future. And you say no refutes you. That's exactly what I did. And once again you have made these claims without testing th in the ptb.
I have been playing both survivor and killer just like I do out of the ptb and with the exception of the sabo where you didn't make a real point but it is still a problem the changes are looking really good for the health of the game. Sure there are some issues but that's the entire point of ptb. To find what's wrong and try to fix it before the love release. I'm sure the wall at shack will be removed. Sabo will probably get nerfed. Toolboxes will get tweaked. That's why ptb exist.
The PTB is not a very rigorous testing environment. It is useful for proof of concept and to squash any major bugs. Since these changes mostly pertain to the economy, the uselessness of testing it in the PTB is even more pronounced. The amount of bloodpoints in the game economy are way too low and people are not running the best perks with all the killers.
Lery's came out nearly 3 years ago. It has taken quite a while for the devs to revisit it and rebalance it. I don't think people appreciate what a small team the dev team is nor do they seem to understand just how long the devs take to change things, especially when talking of rebalancing entire maps.
Even though killers are weak and survivors are strong, I don't think breaking the game in the killer's favor is good either and thousands of hours spent chasing survivors and being chased by killers around the points of the older maps where more than likely breakable walls will be put will substantially increase the effectiveness of the killers. A loop that would have taken 1-2 minutes to hit a survivor could take as little as 10-20 seconds, which is an increase of 10x efficiency, also in the absolute most important part of every map, the middle. Understanding pathing here is very key to my argument.
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@Kongtwenty12 said:
Ok let's go through this step by step and tell you why your wrong
1. Breakable walls
Yes it's a test, to see how it's used by killers and survivors not of whether or not to keep the mechanic. It's coming regardless. It might have some tweaks and changes but it's coming
2.item retention
Survivors already monitored thair charges to keep items so that hasnt changed really at all. The change was that add-ons are single use. AKA survivor nerf.
3.Sabotage
This is the one you actually have a solid point on. I guarantee the sabo will be changed before full release.
4. Tool boxes
You are underestimating the nerf. A engineer's toolbox with BNP and speed increases only does like a quarter or maybe a third of a gen.
TLDR play the ptb and know what your talking about before complaining for no reason. You literally posted this the day ptb came out.
I suppose I can repeat myself for the fourth time. The new map was designed with breakable walls in mind. The old maps were not. There are clear reasons why the old maps have long walls. To understand what I'm saying here, you need some knowledge in both killer pathing and survivor pathing to know that if breakable walls are added to some maps where they should be added, it will break the game in the killer's favor. The places in the old maps where breakable walls should be added are the places where at the moment very weak unsafe pallets are, it's going to drastically increase the map pressure of the killer. In order to add these walls, significant balance changes will need to happen. If the devs plan on reworking all the maps, then that's good, but that's going to take up a lot of time that could be spent making cosmetics that make the game money.
Addons are not needed for items, at all. Just having the bare items significantly increases your chance of survival. This is also something that comes with a deeper knowledge of the game
Tool boxes. Again, the devs intend toolboxes to be used strategically, not like they are now where a survivor spawns in the game with them and immediately works on a gen with them. The intention is to design it around the more clutch moments of the game, like getting the last gen or two done very quickly while the killer employs a 3 gen strat, which is very strong. Tool boxes are turning into mini spare parts. Sure they will have less charges over time, and that would definitely be a nerf, but the caveat is that the devs are altering how fast they repair generators, so they are mitigating the initial nerf.
I have laid out these arguments multiple times throughout this thread and instead of refuting what I'm saying, people just keep repeating the same things over and over again.
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@Cable2486 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1106575#Comment_1106575
You really are trying so very hard to prove a losing argument. I'm not even sure it's even an argument at this point. It's obvious you have a skewed opinion of perks, as well as lack the ability to create a build thoughtfully. You only see individual perks, and overlook synergy. I already answered every question you tried to pose. If you aren't creative enough, or skilled enough to think about why the suggestions I've made are capable, viable strategies, then I pity you.
Dead hard is easy to trick. It's the most viable counter plan. This 3 second invulnerable period you're so scared of isn't anything worse than the DS period, or BT. It's called patience. People like you that rely soley on base perk ability without actually using their heads are usually the ones that get mad about changes like these, then have to look up FAQs to figure out how to deal.
Also, it's interesting that you chose to deliberately ignore that I said POWERS & ADD-ONS. Not JUST add-ons. And you clearly don't understand half of your own argument. Remember your first response when you said being outside of the terror radius is a counter for IF? Yeah, about that. A counter is an active, thoughtful, and skillfull return or turnabout of an action made against you. It while it can be passive, it's an action taken. Not just blind luck.
Example: Survivor hides from my BBQ in a locker. I also take Iron Maiden so that, on exiting, they are exposed for 15 seconds and shown to me for 4 seconds. That's called synergy.
Example 2: Survivor uses SB/DH/Lithe/BL against a Wraith/Spirit/Nurse/Billy: Predict that obvious meta perk and bring speed boost add-ons that allow your power to move faster and trap them by heading them off.
Huntress/Plague/Deathslinger: use projectiles to force them into/away from areas/paths that are more to your advantage. Bring add-ons that allow for faster, more frequent use of powers.
These are called counter plays. Note that counter plays aren't perfect, nor do they always resolve successfully. You, on the other hand, clearly only know how to play the meta. I would advise experimentation.
And FYI, I'm a Rank 3 Wraith/Plague main, so I know a thing or two about these set-ups because I run them, myself. No, they aren't always perfect. But they do work. I'm sorry that you're limiting yourself so severely that you think a killer NEEDS certain perks. What a killer NEEDS is to be able to think on their feet and use predictive logic. The rest is pretty simple.
no killer runs the perks you've mentioned because they are trash. You do not run perks that are active for only a certain part of the game. It's just not the way the game plays out.
You're still not offering viable counters to all the meta perks I've mentioned. Speed does not help against 3 seconds of invulnerability.
Your set ups don't work in high level play. They just don't. There is no way I can make this point any clearer. No one is using the perks you're using. They are way too weak. They are way too circumstantial.
Not only are you so far away from conventional perk layouts and killer theory, you are even way far away from the unconventional theories. There is absolutely no way you play this game at a high enough level because you think the perks you've mentioned are actually viable.
I implore you, find a top tier killer that uses the combination of perks you've mentioned. Not even the more creative killer players and unconventional killer players use these perks.
There's a player trope that describes you almost perfectly, and that's a Timmy
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03
You do not run perks that will give you the most consistent winrate, you run perks that will give you the best enjoyment when you are able to use them. It doesn't matter how consistent they are, only that when they work, they work in big ways. Take, for example, Iron Maiden, you use iron maiden, survivor gets into locker after you hook your first victim. Survivor now knows you have iron maiden and will not enter into a locker again, one quarter of your perks is now effectively useless. At the very most, if all survivors do it, you get the location of each of the 4 survivors once in the entire game. 9/10 games this does nothing, but in 1/10 games you are able to snowball the game due to this. You are fine with this outcome.
I find it quite comical that you say I'm limiting myself on perks, that I play a certain way, and then you tell me to run 3 perks alone just to counter toolboxes.
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@Cable2486 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1106143#Comment_1106143
So your best argument is to present single perks and semi-effective counters? And drop pallets early? You act as if a killer is required to break them. As to Survivor perks:
Dead hard, for example, can be countered simply by faking a Survivor out or bringing Unrelenting to decrease swing time.
Franklin's + Overwhelming Presence + Unnerving should fix your toolbox issues nicely
Hiding from BBQ in a locker? Cool. Iron Maiden solves that nicely.
Sabotage issues, swarming rescuers, and hook blockers? Mad grit + Agitation + Iron Grasp, or Hangman's Trick
Deathslingers new hex plus Haunted ground + any other hex perk make life easier than ever.
Exhaustion perks? Gen rushing? Cool as well. Discordance + Mindbreaker + Surge
I can do this all day. The point is, a killers perks aren't what counters a Survivors perks: it's their powers + add-ons. Perks just offer fine tuning and alter play style.
Dead hard can only be countered when you are chasing a brain dead survivor. I know the majority of survivors are brain dead, but that's not where the strength in dead hard lies. It gives survivors about 3 seconds of invulnerability, which will allow them to get to the next pallet chain where they can minimally loop a killer for at least 2-3 minutes. When a survivor does this, the only option is to abandon the chase.
Franklin's + Overwhelming Presence + Unnerving are not going to fix the issue of the toolbox, because I have just dedicated 3 perks for toolboxes, nothing else. Generally a killer needs a detection perk, a looping perk, a slowdown perk, and a utility or tech perk. You're not going to win games at high rank killer without a clear strategy and a broad range of perks. You can specialize with your utility perk which can make you better at looping or detecting or slowing down the game, that's it.
Iron Maiden is also a useless perk for every killer but maybe huntress to get hatchets quicker.
What game are you playing that these perks you're firing off are even semi viable at even an intermediate level? nevermind top level.
Why do you think dedicating so many perk slots to skills which are only useful in certain situations?
Killer is not like survivor where you can just close your eyes and pick 4 random perks and climb your way to rank one.
Also I would like you to explain how addons counter survivor perks. The only thing in the game that exists now that counters dead hard is a trapper's trap. There is nothing else that gets through the invulnerability. What addon counters adrenaline? Sprint burst? Balanced landing? Unbreakable? Decisive Strike? Borrowed Time?
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Looks like the judge from the frighteners tbh. Good movie, you should watch it if you haven't already
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@Cable2486 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1105969#Comment_1105969
I would love to think you're kidding with that last comment, but it seems unlikely. Killer perks aren't weak, they simply require more skill to employ then most of the Survivors perks, which are almost passive to employ, being mostly just extensions of actions already being regularly done.
Any killer, sand a few can be devastating, given proper play and build. It's just about playing to strength and strategy. Obviously there is going to be differences in skill between individual players, as well as preference in play styles, but it's not really as big an issue as you're making it.
As to sabotage, while it's true it will speed things up, it also allows killers to slug more openly, and let's ambushers open up more opportunities to do what they do.
Survivor perks cannot be effectively countered by the killer, and they are strong enough to give survivors enough distance to run to the nearest strong tile / chain.
Most killer perks can be countered by survivors. If a killer is running enduring and spirit fury you will cut the amount of effective perks he has in half just by throwing pallets down early, and it has been shown that you do not even need to loop pallets to run a killer for 5 gens, just run up to a pallet, throw it early, then run to the next one.
BBQ is easily countered by hiding behind gens and in lockers
Infectious fright is countered by just being out of terror radius when the killer downs someone
Any hex is countered by doing hex totems.
STBFL relies on survivors being inefficient with gens since it takes some effort to build stacks
PWYF same thing as STBFL
Corrupt is countered by preparing for noed or just hiding or even stacking on 2 gens with 2 surv each.
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@Brucecastro81 said:
I think they should remove breakable walls, cuz its an surv buff
gez you're dumb. They sayed that RIGHT NOW (at the moment, as the moment) that is the only map, but after they will add to all maps. Why would they create an whole entire mechanic that interacts with addons and perks, but only use in one of the maps? hope this is bait
Because they created the new map specifically with breakable walls in mind. They did not create every other single map with the intention of adding breakable walls. They created the other maps with long walls specifically to counter problems with killer pathing and movespeed. To just add breakable walls to these maps would break the game. This means, in order to balance breakable walls, they would either need to make it take a very long time to do, or they would need to redesign every other map in the game. I doubt you are knowledgeable enough with this game to understand where breakable walls would be put in the older maps and why they would be too strong for killers.
The shortest path between two points is a straight line. This single statement should be enough for you to understand, but I doubt it.
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@dont_ask_me_again said:
Everything’s basically been said but new killer perks>new survivor perks
that's because nothing stacks up against adrenaline, borrowed time, unbreakable, iron will, dead hard, sprint burst, decisive strike, and balanced landing.
killer perks are not strong for a very simple fact that the devs leave out in their explanations: killer perks can mostly be countered. All of the survivor perks I just laid out are not able to be countered by the killer. Before you mention it, dead hard is not countered in the situations where it is useful, in that where buying an extra 3 seconds means an extra 3 minutes in looping with pallet and window chains, if you want a thought experiment imagine a killer perk where every 40 seconds the killer can triple their lunge distance. Decisive is not necessarily countered by slugging, as the slug can recover and move to a more favorable position and it's completely broken by the survivor just running into a locker.
@Cable2486 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1103806#Comment_1103806
While you are correct that they are testing it, the plainly stated they were testing how it worked on a new map BEFORE they rolled it out to other maps, not IF they rolled it out. The devil's in the details. Speaking of, when was the last time in a high ranked game that you saw someone sabotaging hooks in a dedicated role? It doesn't happen often. If it does, it means taking someone away from gens more often. Combined with the new killers perks, it could make for some very effective anti-genrush tactics.
As to the encouragement of more powerful items, it should also encourage the use of Franklin's Demise, so it's not really something to worry about. Once charges are gone, it's useless. It means losing items to a chest item, or not bringing items in favor of chests. In either scenario, Franklin's will be more relied upon. Unnerving and Distressing are also commonly played and should help as well.
The toolbox changes should also reduce some issues, but synergy with certain perks(looking at you, Prove Thyself) will still be a problem, so it's not really much of a nerf, but time will tell.
The sabo change is certainly a buff to survivors, it's certainly not a nerf to them. It effectively reduces the maximum distance a killer has to get a caught survivor on a hook.
Killer perks are so weak and starved of power that running Franklin's, Unnerving, or Distressing with 3 other perks alone will actually push you into purple ranks. Killer perks are so easily countered by survivors and they have such a little impact on the game that removing one for a 'tech' perk will seriously hamstring about 95% of the high rank killer playerbase. I don't think people have an appreciation for how weak the non freddy non billy non spirit and non ghost face killers are vs the strongest survivors in the game.
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@Mtom912 said:
So I’ve seen multiple people state this, but i haven’t seen you acknowledge them at all
so can you repeat after me so I know you know about at least 2 of the 3 individual killer buffs
trapper doesn’t have to pick up a trap to reset it, and can reset while holding another trap, and his traps can’t be saboed
plague starts with a corrupt fountain, so it’s basically the apple add on base kit
ok, your turn
Trapper is one of the weakest killers in the game, having to sacrifice map pressure to set traps.
The buff I would personally give trapper is to give him 4-5 traps starting and on top of that give him the buffs that have been mentioned, having survivors not be able to sabo his traps and on top of that resetting traps. This would bring him more in line with the stronger killers of the game.
Plague kind of suffers from the same problem in that she needs some set up in order to be effective. Since killers start with 0 map pressure and setting up takes time, this can be enough time for survivors to approach a point where they all have a good chance of escape. Plague is a weak killer, you can't deny this. The devs are addressing this glaring issue by throwing her a bone at the start of the map to do with as she pleases.
I am willing to forgo these changes if survivors and strong loops / pallets are nerfed, along with the strongest killers like billy and ghost face nerfed and also map size reduced. I do recognize some killers are very strong, but the thing is I understand why they are strong. Strong killers are strong because they can circumvent the grace period that is afforded to survivors to get to the next pallet / pallet and window chain. The strongest survivor perks revolve around giving them more distance to get to the safest spots on the map and being able to unhook other survivors with absolutely no risk.
Toning down the power level of both killer and survivor is completely fine. My goal is to have a fair game, not an unfair one.
Inexperienced game companies tend to power creep their game content to try to keep their numbers steady, but this is a very short term business model. Dead by Daylight and Behaviour seem to be at this crucial impasse most game companies with a business model centered around one singular game tend to approach.
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being able to 'catch' survivors from a distance is certainly a very strong ability. I don't know if the devs can truly balance around such a power without entirely breaking the game, especially with the new breakable wall mechanic.
I don't think it's very wise for the devs to add a new killer and on top of that a new mechanic without even addressing very fundamental issues with the base game first.
It really seems the devs are pushing ahead without much thought to what they've left behind. Dead by Daylight is quickly approaching a crossroads where the devs have to decide whether it's a meme game or a serious game. Meme games certainly have their place, but serious games tend to bring in more interest, popularity, and thus money for game companies.
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killer perks that are useful, but still too early to tell if they will be meta, they at least look strong enough to use. I think going the route of blocking gens for X seconds when the killer fulfills a certain task is a very elegant way to slow down the game.
as for the survivor perks, I don't think for the people is healthy for the game with the current perks that are available to survivors. I'm glad there is a downside to it, but it reeks of old insta heal. Red herring looks like a great cheeky perk akin to head on and off the record looks useless.
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@KibaWolf said:
I love how OP quotes the dev saying that wall breaking will make loops less safe and still calls it a buff to survivors.
Obvious troll is obvious but quite funny.
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You just forgot to read the part where I said that it's only going to affect one map. It is also unclear how it will be implemented into the rest of the game if it will be even implemented at all, as I have laid out how broken the mechanic can be on some maps.
Really you just need to read is all.
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@DwarvenTavern said:
Well, let's take a guess what's going on
They are like pallets that the killer can interact with. Brutal Strength can actually work with these walls too, so that's fun. But, that also means they're limited and I'm pretty sure the devs will make it where they will not be closed to each other the exception being houses nearing each other.
Each map seems to have at least two God loops at least. Two very distinctive. The killer shack and something that's almost always inside a building. They might make it where it's a 50/50 on where it spawns. Here's a good example. If one is in the killer shack, there will not be one in the building and vise versa. So survivors can at least have one loop they can kind of count on. But, who knows, but I seriously doubt there will be that many walls that would hugely impact the killer's kill rate
The killer shack is fine imo, it doesn't need a change because it's usually off to the side of the map.
The change I'm more worried about changing the overall balance of the game is the god loop and god window that's usually in the middle of the map. An unsafe zone on the outskirts of the map is bad, but it can be avoided. You can't avoid a weak zone in the middle of the map. The middle of the map is the most effective route for survivors to take to do their objectives and is also the most effective way the killer can traverse the map. Having an unsafe zone in the middle will force them to take safer and longer routes around the map instead of through the middle.
The god windows need to be nerfed, but giving the killer the ability to take down a wall and have that be present for the rest of the match can be game breaking for some maps and some layouts.
There can be some serious strategic flaws in the new breakable walls mechanic if they are implemented into the old maps the way the old maps are designed right now. New maps going forward can be designed around the new mechanic, the old maps would need significant changes.
@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1104088#Comment_1104088
I have to admit, I'm intrigued by that first part. I cannot for the life of me figure out how you could possibly get "the devs are worried about survivors' safety" from that quote. Please explain? I'm genuinely curious.
"For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker."
"These changes may make some loops we intended to be strong to be weaker, we will have to see how players play to gauge effectiveness"
Do you agree that making a loop strong is beneficial for survivors?
If you do, then the safety of a survivor is considered in the strength of a loop
Therefore, making sure a loop is strong and not weak is a consideration on the survivor and their safety, not the killer.
It's quite logical.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1103958#Comment_1103958
Quoting that line proves nothing except that breaking walls will improve things for killers - a point on which we have already agreed.
And no, Quality of Life changes are by definition not nerfs or buffs. They simply make the experience of playing the game smoother or less tedious, without actually affecting the balance of the game in any notable way.
Everything you just said about sabotaging hooks is already the case, and has nothing to do with the upcoming changes.
Once again, we don't yet have enough information about the toolbox changes to say which side they will benefit the most. Any speculation along those lines is just that - speculation.
Even if we assume you're correct in saying that add-ons don't have much of an effect on the power of an item, that doesn't mean that losing them at the end of every match isn't a nerf. Kind of like how the fact that hooks now respawn faster doesn't necessarily mean the sabotage changes aren't a buff. You're operating to a very obvious double standard here.
Nothing you have said, aside from your own speculations, indicates that the new patch is "actually a buff to survivors". With all respect, the fact that you still think it does tells me that I'm not going to be able to convince you to look at things objectively, and so I probably shouldn't waste any more of my time trying. Others have already made many of the same points, so if you want additional counter-arguments, look to them instead.
Except that quoting what I quoted specifically lays out the devs' interest on survivor safety.
Like I said, you even admitted that the item change is a nerf to franklin's. It's a QoL change for survivors plus a slight nerf to killers. This is exactly what I said, a slight buff for survivors.
We have enough information to make an intelligent guess as to how the changes to toolboxes will effect the game. At what part of the game do you need a boost in repair speed? Towards the end where the killer is strongest and has the most map presence. What do these changes ultimately do? Change the current staggered repair bonus of the toolboxes to a quick bonus. If the changes were only to the charges and nothing else, it would be a clear nerf.
I have laid out why the sabotage changes are beneficial to survivors. Hook regeneration speed is quite meaningless, what matters is that a survivor can quickly sabotage a hook that the killer is on their way towards, preventing them from getting a hook. I said addons do make items more powerful, but the base items are powerful on their own. I don't see the double standard here, a regenerating hook is different from having addons be one use. I've laid out when the sabotage changes will be useful, and they will be severely detrimental for the killer when pulled off. Losing addons is tied to the bloodpoint system, not necessarily the balance of the game.
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@DwarvenTavern said:
With this up coming update, I highly doubt it'll be survivor based. Breakable walls are only on the new map for testing purposes. After things run extremely smoothly or they're done touching up the maps or both, then we'll actually see the walls in every single map. It's just a new feature that they're working on, they'll get the maps soon. Toolboxes were nerfed, which is nice and with a decent trade off. Sabotaging hooks is a lot better now, it always felt clunky. The item depletion thing is just a survivor quality of life. We got stuff like that as killers, actually in this update we have some
A junk pallet next to a jungle gym with a breakable wall will make an entire zone of the map very unsafe for survivors.
On god windows and god loops there are unsafe pallets where a breakable wall will most likely be put. If you think of these, it will turn the god loops and god windows into very unsafe areas, and these are usually in the middle of the map.
I can see with just these two issues alone that this change will drastically increase killer efficiency with the way killers are balanced right now.
The walls in this game have been designed to be so long for a very clear purpose, for survivor safety. If these walls are not as long as they have been designed, over the course of the years this game has existed, it is a very real problem for the overall balance of the game.
If the breakable walls are like pallets, there can be some play around them, but if they are just easily breakable by the killer at the killer's leisure, they will be in areas that will be very strategically advantageous for killers, enough to break the game in the killers' favor.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1103827#Comment_1103827
Alright, I'll take it seriously.
There's nothing really to address in that first paragraph - you admitted yourself that it's actually a buff to killers, small though it may be (and small for very good reasons, none of which have anything to do with "not wanting survivors to be too unsafe" - that right there is pure conjecture, as survivors' safety wasn't even mentioned in the official post).
Item retention is barely anything more than a QOL change. You could interpret it as a minor nerf to Franklin's Demise, but that's it. The vast majority of survivors already use their item up until the last couple of charges so that they will be able to leave the match with it. This update is not encouraging anyone to use any items that they don't already use. All it's doing is making it less of a pain to do what almost everyone already does.
The sabotage changes actually look like they'll be to the ultimate benefit of killers in my opinion, but we simply don't have enough information about it to know for sure one way or the other yet. Numbers will make all the difference here. It's highly presumptuous to refer to it as either a buff or a nerf at this early stage.
Toolbox changes, again, depend on numbers. You even acknowledged as much yourself. The most compelling evidence we currently have access to one way or the other is the statement that "the amount of time saved with a Toolbox is much lower overall", which I would argue therefore indicates that, based solely on the information we currently have, the toolbox changes can be considered an overall nerf.
You also left out of your original post the fact that survivor add-ons now disappear after the match, which is a very obvious nerf to survivors, and the significant buffs to Plague and Trapper and what is arguably a buff to Doctor as well.
So basically, none of the points you mentioned conclusively constitute a nerf to killers or a buff to survivors, and some of them are quite the opposite. You have also extrapolated unfairly on certain parts of the dev post, and conveniently omitted certain other parts which don't support your narrative, both of which make it very difficult to interpret your argument as anything more than propaganda - ironically enough, considering the title of the thread.
"For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker. Others might open up new paths to get around the map faster. We’ll be keeping a close eye on how everyone uses them to see what works best before adding them to existing maps." -Verbatim from the dev update.
So a quality of life update is not seen as a buff in your eyes? You even admit it is, at the very least, a nerf to franklin's. Please reread what I said, I said this will be a slight buff to survivors, not a large one.
The sabotage changes will negatively effect the killer. Even though hooks will regenerate faster, what matters is the hook being sabotaged and the killer having the caught survivor wiggle free from their hands. This is an insane loss for the killer, to have to have spent the last 30-40 seconds trying to down a survivor for them to only wiggle free. Since the distance of getting a safe hook has been drastically reduced, survivors can exploit this with burning offerings and keeping track of where they are in relation to hooks.
The strength of the toolbox changes will not be in the first 2 - 3 gens of the map like they are now. The strength will be in the clutch part of the game, where the killer can patrol gens easier. It will make doing the last few gens that are more easily camped by the killer go by much quicker, which reduces the strength of 3 gen strats. This combined with the devs' intention to reduce the effectiveness of slowdown perks in the future will likely end up making toolboxes actually stronger in the long run. The devs have elucidated this intention by explaining how survivors can strategically use the toolboxes, instead of just slamming them right off the bat.
Addons increase the power of items, but items are still quite powerful on their own, especially if survivors bring 4 of them into a match. As a high rank survivor, I don't find the need to even use addons much of the time, having a green toolbox / flashlight / healkit is usually enough to drastically increase my chances of escape.
Actually what I've laid out shows that it's ultimately a buff to survivors. Breakable walls are a very large variable and we can't be guaranteed that they will be added to old maps because they might break old maps without those maps being significantly changed. The amount of breakable walls will matter too. I don't see what I've misunderstood in the dev update. I've clearly and concisely laid out what the changes are and what they mean for the game.
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@asergioam said:
It seems to me that we haven’t read the same thing so I will cote:
“For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker. Others might open up new paths to get around the map faster. We’ll be keeping a close eye on how everyone uses them to see what works best before adding them to existing maps.”
breakable walls are a new thing and for what I’ve read, they want data to analyse before changing the other maps so, yes, they will be bringing it to all maps but they don’t want to mess those maps up before knowing what they should do exactly but somehow people still manage to turn a good decision into seeming to be a bad one. What would happen if they decided to change all maps right away to the new update?! The game could actually turn into an unplayable one! Just be patient and be thankfull that they are trying new interactions and trying to make the game more fun to everyone. With every update there are always players saying bad things of it without even trying ore knowing exactly how it will be!
What you said is exactly what I'm saying about breakable walls.
They may break the game without significant changes to the old maps, so they may not be implemented.
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@Fibijean said:
Ah yes, they've had us all fooled and only the most wise and astute of players are able to see through the veil of lies to the true intentions beneath!
... Or maybe they're actually doing their best to make the game better for both roles, and you're just trying really hard to pretend that isn't the case so you can keep feeling hard done-by.
Sorry if that seems harsh, but as @Dehitay suggested, anyone who isn't actually biased towards either role can see that this update is pretty much a net benefit to everyone.
I've clearly laid out my points here, you are free to take them apart and refute them with evidence from the update notes.
Whether or not the devs are trying their best is actually irrelevant to this discussion.
@TAG said:
The devs have also gone on to say that this is a test, so we don't even know if breakable walls will make it into the game, as they don't want survivors to be too unsafe.
This is a pretty hard twisting of words. They're not testing whether breakable walls will make it into the game; they're testing how to best implement breakable walls into existing maps. That's why it will for now only appear on the new map, as that map was designed entirely with breakable walls in mind.
Breakable walls may be too strong for killers, and it may make certain loops too unsafe for survivors. If every other map in the game has to go through significant changes to make breakable walls viable in this update, the devs are not likely to implement them in the old maps. Maybe new maps going forward, but not old maps.
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@Dehitay said:
It takes a considerable amount of bias to look at the update notes and actually think it's survivor sided. You seem to completely be ignoring anything other than what favors survivors.
Breakable walls will definitely be killer sided since if it's an advantage, they can break them whenever; and if it's not an advantage, they don't have to be broken at all.
Item retention was always ridiculously easy on escape. If you think this will increase item retention by any significant margin, you have no clue what survivors have been doing all this time. However, the garunteed addon loss on the other hand will be where the true difference comes from and that is huge unless survivors start running Ace in the Hole to counter it.
Sabotaging will now require a deal more of a head start than previously. If a survivor is downed too close to a hook, it's impossible to do anything about it with this change. And the faster hook spawns are definitely in the killer's favor.
Toolbox changes were clearly a nerf. If you bothered reading the details, that much was definitely made clear. You're just desperate to see everything as a survivor buff if you're honestly questioning this.
And all 3 killers that got changes were definitely buffed. This is one of the most killer sided patches in a long while.
Breaking walls will definitely take time to do, we don't know how much time and we don't know how many walls. Like I said, this is only affecting one map out of many, so the change here is not clearly killer sided. The devs have pointed out that the breakable walls may make survivors less safe, so survivors are definitely in their mind even with this new mechanic.
Like I said, item retention will encourage players to bring rarer items in, since there is less fear of losing those items. It will also encourage them to use those items more often. I also said this was a slight buff to survivors, not a large one.
The fact that sabotaging a hook is clearly easier in this new update gives survivors more of a chance to sabotage a hook before a killer gets to it. I do not understand what you're talking about here, it is going to increase their efficiency.
Also like I said, toolbox changes aren't going to be a clear nerf. It all depends on the numbers. Considering they are making toolboxes into mini spare parts, there is definitely room for these to be abused and exploited for the survivors' favor.
The three killers that got buffed needed the buffs, and 3/18 killers being changed is hardly an overall buff for killers.
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@scat said:
Let's just ignore the fact that the hook will respawn almost right away unless they have breakdown, or let's ignore the perks killers have to see survivors near the hook, or how about we ignore iron grasp or agitation, survivor perks are the only ones that exist right? Jesus I love the killer salt that appears after every update. You could make it so killers move at 300% speed at all time and they would still ######### about something
The fact that you think iron grasp and agitation are viable or will ever be viable is absolutely astonishing and that statement alone just proves you don't know what you're talking about.
Yes, at rank 20, using agitation and iron grasp will be better than using no perks for people who have just started leveling killer. That's it.
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There is a point in this game where survivors go from being complete trash to being able to easily loop a killer for all 5 gens. As a killer, you hit this wall around rank 7 when you start running into very high rank survivors. Survivors are extremely OP, especially considering there are 4 of them. Moris, Iri heads, and myers t3 are all rare addons / offerings. DS BT and DH can be used every game, and bringing even brown toolboxes almost guarantees a win for survivors.
The main problem in this game is the insane amount of window and pallet chains a knowledged survivor can utilize. It is impossible to reliably mindgame good survivors, and missing one 50/50 mindgame will take these survivors to the strongest chain of tiles in the map. When you abandon this chase, you can only hope the next survivor you find is worse or in a bad position, and if they aren't you are guaranteed a loss, as finding a survivor and chasing them for a few seconds then abandoning the chase only to do it again is enough time for survivors to do all gens before you kill them.
Since the killer starts every game with zero map pressure, the pace of the game is set entirely by the survivors, not the killer. The killer has to play flawlessly because the killer needs to exploit survivor mistakes to get ahead. Only when the survivors make mistakes can the killer gain anything. The strongest killers are those that can down survivors in that grace period that survivors get which gives them enough time to run to the strongest tiles in the game.
It has also been proven that survivors don't even need to loop pallets to win. There are enough pallets in the game that if you were in a chase and just threw the pallet down early and ran off to the next pallet, by the time you were done, all 5 gens could be done.
As a survivor, I actually find it quite insulting that the devs think I am so stupid and so inept that they have to make the gameplay so brain dead that the only thing required of me is that I hold down my shift button to run.
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Adrenaline has no counter play
Dead Hard has no counter play (if you respond to this statement, you do not play this game at a high enough level)
Sprint Burst has no counter play
Balanced Landing has no counter play
Decisive Strike has limited counter play and running into a locker with it is absolutely broken
Borrowed Time has no effective counter play
Object of Obsession has no counter play
Most meta killer perks are easily countered, including NOED. The only thing stopping you from countering most killer perks is your greed and laziness. If you think you can reach the highest levels of this game without knowing every single facet of it, you are the epitome of survivor entitlement.
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The devs on this game suffer from the same fate that I see the devs on another game that I play, World of Warships, where they are bad at the game and rely on testers and spreadsheets to balance their game. The problem with this is that the devs miss something by not playing their game, they miss the 'feel' of the game. Sure something will be statistically balanced, but it will not be immersive and fun. Taking data from the lower echelons and the higher echelons of the game is not a way to balance it. Unfortunately for the DBD devs, they have created a PVP game, not a PVE game, and thus the game needs very elegant balance, especially considering it's a 4 v 1 PVP game.
This game requires a lot of work for the devs, that includes spending hours a day playing at a high level and getting a feel of the game, not just looking at data or even spectating super high level 8 hour a day streamers. The lack of time the devs are spending on playing the game is starting to really show in their balance decisions, as now a lot the big balance stuff has been largely solved, and there are now a million smaller balance changes that need to happen.
As I said, this is a PVP game, there are players on two sides battling against each other, the experience needs to be fun for both of them. Balancing the game towards new players will make higher level play absolutely atrocious. Balancing the game towards high level play will make the gameplay atrocious at low levels. From what the Devs have released in where they get their data, it seems these two extremes are where they get most of their information from, and they don't play the game at a high enough level to understand how the game feels on either side.
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Chasing survivors and getting chased by the killer are the main sources of entertainment in this game. Reduce map sizes, DECREASE gen speed, remove most safe tiles, add a bunch of unsafe tiles for the killer and their prey to mindgame so that either side gets a feeling of outplaying the other side when they win that small engagement.
I like this idea because it helps create a metric by which player skill can be measured. If the game is balanced enough, ending a chase as a killer will score more skill points, and prolonging a chase as a survivor will score more points. Lets say every 5 seconds the killer loses a point and the survivor gains a point. This system is not highly dependent on addons like toolboxes flashlights or moris. It changes the primary task of the killer to chase survivors, and the primary task of the survivor to actually survive. The secondary tasks are the generators. This also plays into the theme of dead by daylight by having the killer play with their food. Plus downs naturally lead to sacrifices.