ZaKzan
ZaKzan
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ds and bt remove the risk of unhooking / getting unhooked
dead hard removes the punishment of making mistakes
To actually punish tunneling, I would reduce ds timer to 10 or maybe 15 seconds after being unhooked and then remove the skillcheck so it's guaranteed if the killer picks you up. To balance BT I would make the speed boost only last 1/4 of the time it is now. To balance dead hard I would remove it from the game completely.
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it just shows how much this game gives survivors that they can be that bad and still be in the high ranks. It also illuminates the reason why the devs favor survivors. Although this creates a cycle where survivors get progressively worse at the game. Survivors are just bad at the game and there's no reason for them to even get better because the game is so easy for them in the first place.
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@Sunri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1431907#Comment_1431907
Pallets are limited and what do you mean by killlling too efficiently? using mori? or hooking them once and camping them if you hook all the survivors in your match there no way that you won't rank up
you can run up to a pallet, not loop it, throw it, move to the next pallet and keep doing that and by the time you are done, all 5 gens and the exit gates will be done. You actually don't need to loop pallets, there's plenty that spawn on the map for you to utilize, then you can use your second chance perks to help with any mistakes in pathing you make.
So you can't think of any other situations where the killer kills too efficiently? Like being able to down all the survivors and then hooking them?
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because this game started as being heavily survivor sided. The fact that you can throw down a pallet in the killer's face and have time to teabag them and then run to the next pallet or make a mistake and cover it up with a second chance perk proves this. Survivors have always been the power role in this game. Hell, if you're a killer and you kill too efficiently, you can't even rank up. You are supposed to let survivors go. Meanwhile survivors do not afford the killer any modicum of mercy. The reason why scoring now assumes the first 2 gens will be done near instantly and the reason why bloodlust is even in the game is a testament to how strong survivors are and the devs' unwillingness to balance survivors. Any attempt at making any sort of tournament or competition for this game fails because once you get 4 survivors that know what they're doing on top of giving them the ability to communicate, there is absolutely no hope even for the strongest killers.
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make deathslinger movespeed 115 or 120
have trapper spawn with traps that regenerate over time, instead of having to roam the map to get them
ezpz fixes that exponentially increase the strength of both killers
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Dead by daylight is a good example of why balancing around the majority of players is bad game design. It's like they think this is an MMO and not a PVP game.
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because this game is not skillbased and if you get 4 survivors that aren't braindead, they are going to destroy a killer no matter their skill level.
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@Valor188917 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1427707#Comment_1427707
It doesn't matter if I can run billy for 3 minutes, he can just zipp off with almost no penalty for trying to commit to me even if he doesn't even get a hit, find another survivor who can't and it's basically game over. Not everybody plays in sweaty SWFs, many just play with friends who are of very differing skill levels. Freddy offers the same problem, he can overcommit but his teleport makes it so that this mistake is not really a big one, but at least Freddy doesn't down mediocre survivors in a second.
The problem with balancing a game around bad players is that higher level play will be broken and unfun. If you balanced towards skillful play, you will balance the game at all skill levels. You don't have to learn how to play the game if you don't want to.
Reposting this because people don't seem to understand how pvp games should be balanced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw -
God forbid survivors having to actually get good at the game.
Shame on killers for complaining about X, they just need to get good at the game though.
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Ruin was a crappy bandaid to fix a glaring fundamental issue with this game, an issue the devs have not addressed after they nerfed ruin. Ruin needed to go, but we were hoping that what would follow would be a legitimate fix to gen speeds. Instead we got an imperceptible change in toolbox speed, breakable walls that have not been fully implemented, a capitulation in the devs changing the way scoring works and just saying the first 2 gens are supposed to be done quickly, and an ineffective change in how skill checks work and multiple survivors on one gen works ( I think this was so ironic, considering they nerfed ruin because it was hard for players to hit skillchecks, yet they changed great skillchecks because players were hitting them too often). Now we're getting this billy nerf, and I imagine spirit doc and freddy are next. Now we can hope that the devs start actually working on balancing this game after these nerfs, but considering what happened after ruin, it's reasonable to be skeptical.
The changes the devs make to survivors have, at the most, a moderate impact on survivor play. The changes the devs make to killers have severe game altering and game breaking impact on killers. This is especially notable in listening to how the devs explain why they fix certain things. It also shows in their inconsistent reasoning like what I pointed out above about skillchecks. I don't know if it's an issue with the devs themselves, or the person that gives them orders, but whoever is calling the shots clearly doesn't actually play this game beyond just hopping on for 20 minutes every couple of days, and the voices of those in the team that actually do spend significant time on this game are not being heard, and the voices of the players are certainly not being heard.
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@ins0 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1424877#Comment_1424877
Translate what you just said into the real world - China keeps it's 95% of its population happy by persecuting the 5% Uighur minority. Does that sound good to you? is that fair?
Fun fact - are you aware that NetEase made a "strategic investment" into BHVR a little while back? just a fun fact, nothing more.
I'd say keeping 95% of people happy is in china's favor. Doesn't matter what it sounds like to me, what matters is what it sounds like to china and what it does. You're just not putting the matter in perspective
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1425309#Comment_1425309
No im saying that not all the money Bhvr gets goes to dbd so people saying they earned 13 million dollars don't know how companies work.
If you're on about USELESS, afaik they were banned for continuously posting about how much they hated the game several times a day, even several times an hour.
"salty survivors" and "low rank survivors" are two different things man.
it would be very stupid for them to not spend a significant amount of money on their bread and butter, and considering the amount of consistent players they have playing their game, buying new dlcs, buying cosmetics, and considering how small their team is, it is not out of the realm of reason to wonder where their money is going towards, especially considering how they change certain aspects of this game combined with bugs that have been in the game for years now and haven't been fixed.
They're either wasting their money on useless employees or they need to use the money they have to expand. If they lose DBD, they go bankrupt, I don't think they're stupid enough to hedge all their money on other endeavors.
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killer is only 20% of the playerbase if that with previous changes. They have no incentive at all to help killers at all, and they have every incentive to make gameplay easier for survivors. Keeping 80% of the playerbase happy at the expense of 20% is pretty good for a game.
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killers are designed around camping / tunneling / slugging. Don't play by survivor rules and you'll do a lot better.
That being said, there will be games that you just cannot win as killer as this game heavily favors survivors at the higher end of play, especially swf. This game is a PvP game, but it is not balanced like one.
You don't chase down loopers until you have people hooked or sacrificed. Unless you can get them to either drop a pallet or get a hit within the first 15 seconds of a chase, there is no point in chasing them. You have to learn to zone and then prepare to stay in the game for 30 minutes to an hour or more if you want to win if you are fighting against survivors that understand what you're doing and start a war of attrition with you. This game is designed to be as unpleasant as possible the more seriously you play it, as it is designed around bad players instead of good players.
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if it's a killer bug, you're gonna wait a while. Especially after major patches. Devs have to fix survivors first, then they'll spend 2 minutes on killer bugs
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Unfortunately, in modern times, most devs don't really play their games. By play, I mean really play. This, I believe, leads to a disconnect between them and the playerbase, especially if the playerbase generally has a large amount of time invested into the game. Just because a change is statistically good doesn't necessarily mean that change will feel good to the players. This is what the vast majority of devs get wrong in gaming. Playing 2-5 hours a week is good and all, but you're not going to get the grind and game experience of the person playing for 20-40 hours a week. Not only is the playtime important, but the mindset as well. Devs can circumvent this shortcoming by talking to and watching the best players in the game, as those players are the players that do a really good job of breaking the game. Unfortunately for this game, the devs seem to largely ignore what the playerbase says and they don't do a very good job gauging skill, so taking statistics is all but useless. Moreover, nothing is done to encourage survivors to play killer or killers to play survivors or to combat toxicity in the game and generally a nerf or a buff one way is largely seen as zero sum.
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the game is designed in such a way that you will lose if you fight a team of survivors that have any semblance of understanding of what to do.
You can improve a little bit, but there is only so much you can do against 4 people, 3 of which are slamming gens while you chase one. The only games where you can get 3ks or 4ks are if the survivors don't do generators. The game doesn't rely on you making mistakes or not, it relies on survivors making mistakes, although you are punished very severely for making the tiniest mistakes, even as small as costing you 2-3 seconds of time.
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run franklins, troll survivors
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everyone uses DS, killers just slug, everyone stops using ds, killers start to tunnel, everyone uses ds, killers just slug......
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because you can totally dominate killers after only 20-30 hours of playtime.
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why would the devs appeal to 20% of the playerbase at the expense of 80% of the playerbase?
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The game does a very poor job at managing skill level / ranking. So players (especially survivors) ranks are generally inflated. This pushes a lot of bad players into ranks they shouldn't be in, which then skews statistics at these ranks. Then we are given these statistics and changes are made based on these statistics that further unbalance the game, which then creates the cycle we're in now where the game is horribly balanced and it's becoming harder to have fun playing.
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Those who have the power to do something about it are responsible, obviously.
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If a game isn't going a survivor's way, the survivor has an out of just getting caught and dying on hook. If a game isn't going a killer's way, they have to keep playing it, and survivors will stop doing gens and start running around the killer once they realize the killer is afk or not participating. You are not forced to play the game as a survivor, but you are forced to play the game as a killer.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1380636#Comment_1380636
This is cute, but the first part is also false. Unless you play low rank/skilled Killers...then maybe.
I will say you are right though, survivors aren't as pressured as Killers when it comes to time efficiency. They are pressured in other ways. That is the nature of the two different roles; two different objectives. But in no way can survivors actually use any BM that has a real effect on the game more so than Killers.
The game gives a killer 15 seconds at the start of a chase to either throw down a pallet or hit a survivor. If a survivor can refrain from getting hit within the first 15 seconds of a chase, they are reducing the overall amount of time the killer has to hook them all by a significant amount.
Just by running in a straight line, getting hit, then dead harding, and then getting hit a second time, you are wasting about 45-60 seconds of a killer's time. That's up to 2 gens done worth of time for your team mates. You can do this 2 times. The killers that can circumvent these grace periods are the killers that are seen as the strongest killers. It's not a question of fighting lower skilled killers, it's a question of fighting certain killers. The skill cap for killer is quite low, once you reach a certain level, you can't really improve much afterwards, barring becoming a master of psychology and being able to understand every single survivor you meet just by chasing them once.
Survivors can BM and not be punished for it. Whenever a killer BM's they are punished for it. What can a killer do at the end of a round, chasing a survivor to the exit and the survivor BMs just before they exit? Or if the survivor throws down a jungle gym pallet, they can easily bm without costing them anything, the only pallets they can't effectively BM at are unsafe pallets, which are quite rare.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1380453#Comment_1380453
If you are good enough as killer. And if not? And if the survivor team uses their plenty tools to deny the killer even that one hook or kill? Is teabagging then an issue and the killers fault because he could not deal with it?
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1380560#Comment_1380560
Everything a killer can do to bm is difficult or bannable?? You clearly don't play survivor if this is your opinion. Maybe you should. Might give you some more ideas. 😂
I play plenty of survivor. When I am BMed by the killer, my 3 other team mates escape, because I can effectively stall the killer for enough time for them to escape. You're right, the killer can BM survivors, but the killer can only BM 1 survivor at the cost of having the 3 other survivors escape. Inversely, every survivor can effectively BM the killer with very little to no cost to them or the game. The game gives survivors enough perks and safe areas that they do not need to play efficiently to successfully evade the killer and escape. Every single second counts to the killer, the same is not true for survivors.
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@Peanits said:
You've always had the power to deal with teabagging. You are the killer. You move faster than them, you can hit them, and you even have a power to help you do so. If anything, it was in favour of killers for years since the guy on the hook can't just hit the killer to make it stop.
Too bad that this game gives survivors enough second chances and free space to roam that they can safely BM while the killer either has to break the pallet, or go around an inefficient wall. Everything that the killer can do to BM survivors is either limited severely, or just outright bannable, yet nothing is done to limit teabagging or flashlight clicking or any of the other myriad things survivors can do to rub it in the face of the killer. The very few things that the killer can do to BM survivors will severely cost them precious time, because apparently the game can't be balanced around 5 gens and it has to be balanced around 3 gens.
I think it would be very revealing for BHVR to go out and ask gamers who don't necessarily play DBD what their thoughts on DBD are and what they've heard about it, you'd have a lot of important information as to why your competitors in this genre are starting to gain ground on you. Taking opinions of people who play this game would be redundant, as these forums show, every day, what the playerbase thinks of this game.
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@BlueFang said:
Survivors get more chances to survive than killers get to kill.
And this is because the survivors DIE while the killer is immortal. The killer can be smacked with pallets over and over again, bm'd, and the like but we can't die. Its what gives us an advantage where as for survivors they can die on their first hook they need some forgiveness
This is compounded by the fact that there are 4 of them. There is a point where you can become absolutely invulnerable to a killer as a survivor.
A condition that has become more and more circumvented with changes made to certain killers such as Freddy (bt) and now even Pyramid head who can send any tormented survivor to the shadow-realm. Bypassing Decisive Strike and Unbreakable entirely unless they can get to a locker. Cheese strategies have always for every DS locker there's slugging, moris, exposed status effects, bamboozle, spamming Freddy traps to win a loop, and many more
You can make any side look despicable by not recognizing the full picture
Cool story, not everyone plays freddy or pyramid head.
You're also forgetting the massive amount of bugs that make some killers almost unplayable that have been in the game and haven't been fixed. The devs have only just started to address gen speed issues and infinites. They completely broke the nurse. Spirit has had sound issues since she was released. Meanwhile if a perk like dead hard isn't working properly we get a fix within a week or two.
Moris are weaker than keys, you have to chase down each survivor and mori them, taking precious time. With key it's just about instant and all the survivors can reap the rewards.
You're actually not making any points here because what you have described is very easily countered by a survivor that is capable of some form of critical thought. I also find it amazing that you even bring up bamboozle. I might as well just have brought up spine chill self care and premonition in my original statement.
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@BlueFang said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1310297#Comment_1310297
Do you realize how many perks, offerings, and addons I can pull up on the killer side for this exact same thing. Knock it off with "survivors get billions of chances and we have nothing"
Not many killer perks offerings and addons give you a second chance. Moris are rare, the 'second chance' killer perks are mostly trash, and addons largely just fix fundamental problems with the killers and the game. You also can't reliably run multiple 'second chance' killer perks because they are so inefficient. It is extremely viable and meta to run multiple exhaust perks on survivors, which are designed around being limited use.
Survivors get more chances to survive than killers get to kill. This is compounded by the fact that there are 4 of them. There is a point where you can become absolutely invulnerable to a killer as a survivor. You can be the best killer in the game and still get survivor teams that will wipe you consistently. The killer cannot be in 4 places at once and survivors are way stronger than what the balance should be, 25% of what the killer is. Individual survivors are closer to 50-75% of the strength of the killer.
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Got hit at the wrong time? Don't worry bro we got you with Dead Hard
Got hit at all and no heals? Don't worry bro we got you with Iron Will
Made the wrong move and got spotted in the open? Don't worry bro we got you with Sprint Burst
Can't figure out how to safely unhook teammates? Don't worry bro we got you with Borrowed Time
Too bad to be able to properly run from the killer after being hooked? Don't worry bro we got you with both Dead Hard and Decisive Strike
Can't properly run loops? Don't worry bro we got you with infinites
Got a bad team? Don't worry bro we got you with hatch
Hatch isn't a 2nd chance mechanic, it's an 8th chance mechanic. There are more elegant ways to end the game that have been suggested than adding the hatch, and you can do it without giving survivors yet another chance to survive.
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why is a new killer designed better than an old killer?
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@ItzPixelYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1294122#Comment_1294122
Another delusional person who goes with the forum flow and complains with what everyone else wants to complain about. Dead Hard doesn't work half the time FYI. Iron Will doesn't make you invulnerable and it may cause mind games but as loops are effectively reduced, it's not a god perk unless your on a broken map like Yamokoa...
If you are a bad player, yes dead hard is not that strong. Iron will puts you at an advantage against higher tier killers because higher tier killers pay more attention to sounds in the game. The build that I recommended is one of the strongest builds in the game for survivor. IW and BT will buy you a good 2-3 minutes per game even if you are playing solo, as you can sneak up easier to the killer even while injured to get a safe save with BT. Even if the survivor you save is an idiot, on most occasions you can exploit the auto aim feature to make the killer hit the person you unhooked, giving you a free unhook and giving the person you unhooked a free grace period and essentially a free sprint burst, buying your entire team a good 30 seconds or more of time.
You should probably learn to play the game before you comment on issues related to game balance. The 3 seconds of invulnerability that dead hard affords you is enough to get to a chain of windows and pallets on nearly any map, given that you have already been hit once by the killer and have got the speed boost.
I suggest you start learning maps and map layouts if you are having a hard time with killers, especially if you are running dead hard, as you are not using the perk to its fullest if you are allowing the killer to down you shortly after using dead hard.
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DS and Dead Hard are still the strongest perks in the game, able to win it.
DS DH IW and BT makes you pretty much invulnerable to anything a killer can do, and doubles or even triples the amount of time you are chased by the killer, however bad or skilled you are.
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Actually what skews the numbers quite a lot is the fact that it's so easy to pip with survivor. The pipping system tends to put survivors in higher ranks than they should be at.
BHVR then tells us the statistics of red ranks when the red ranks are filled with very low skilled survivors. This is precisely why it is so bad to not actually play the games you develop. Putting in 5-10 hours a week playing the game you are developing is not enough to get a feel for the game and it is not enough to reach a level of competitiveness to properly balance the game. This is where a lot of devs fail, but the more successful devs look to the most experienced players to help balance the game. Community feedback, and especially experienced community feedback is largely ignored here. The fact that the devs acknowledge that it feels painful to fight against SWF or be a solo survivor yet are not doing anything about fixing the experience says a lot here.
If you rely purely on spreadsheets to give you clues as to how your game is doing, your game is going to end up feeling very bad to play, especially with players that have more time invested into it. What I'm talking about here isn't even nerfs or buffs, it's just making the game feel good and feel fun to play. It's nice and all to make changes that will alter the win or loss percentages of a certain side, but the goal should always be the player experience. If both sides have fun, regardless of winning or losing, then the game will be in a healthy state. If you can't put 20-30 hours a week into making sure you game feels good to play, you should probably start seeking the advice of players who do play 20-30 hours a week and see what they say and reach a consensus.
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in any pvp game, you are used as a farm against your will, whether its for xp money honor or in this case bp, I don't understand your point.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230697#Comment_1230697
Yeah, don't worry about anyone but yourself. Only you should have fun. You don't even know those four other people who also paid money to play a spirited game and have fun, so who cares about them anyway. They are only, like, other human beings. 🙄
Not my problem to worry about other players. I paid money for this game too. The issue of balance and fun is solely up to the devs, not me. It is not my responsibility to provide you with fun. The devs have also stated that their goal is to make this game frustrating.
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@ZoneDymo said:
@OP, first I did not read your post nor anything posted so far but I just want to say that maybe you are right, maybe it wont fix everything, but this is where the devs are smart, they dont do everything right away.
If you throw everything out right away you introduce way too many variables, its hard to then check what some changes have done.
This is why im so annoyed by threads that immediatly say "well if you nerf ruin, also nerf X"... like...give it some time? actually try it out? see how it works?
If its not good enough then its not good enough and more changes will come but lets do it step by step.
considering this game hovers around 30k players on average, you're getting hundreds of thousands of games per week. There is absolutely zero reason to wait so long for changes when large amounts of data can be so easily obtained.
The devs aren't smart in this regard because they leave glaring problems in their game for such a long time that it's doing damage to their game and playerbase.
Also not to mention they almost completely ignore player feedback and there are very serious bugs in this game that have been in this game for years now that they seem to not have any intention of fixing any time soon.
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stop worrying about the survivors, play your game, have fun, stop trying to follow rule books.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230355#Comment_1230355
I love that you talk as if I'm not familiar with that concept when I've had talks like this with multiple people here before, and probably will have more in the future. I'm just not going in depth in a subject that has nothing to do with the original point of the thread.
You're not bringing any revolutionary ideas here with that, it's a very well known concept.
so because this game has been balanced around the majority of the playerbase, where killer is oppressive, survivor becomes very oppressive at higher ranks and skill levels
So, survivor was made easier and killer was made harder. We come full circle. This is why i brought up this point.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230355#Comment_1230355
The problem with your logic is that the ranking system is completely broken.
And balancing the game around the best players would make strides in determining what a skilled player is and does. What their goals are, how they play.
"So what if a killer just tunnels a survivor out of the match?" - that killer won't be in high ranks
"so what's stopping this system from being abused?" - It doesn't, you have sealclubbing in every single truly skill based game, and it's no change from now either
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230341#Comment_1230341
I'm not even going to get into this discussion here. Just know that I'm perfectly familiar with this concept and I don't think DBD should adopt it while the game sucks at other basic balance things.
Until the SWF-Solo gap is smaller there's no point in following that.
You should probably read that quote a little more critically.
If the best players in this game are good SWF players, then by the same logic applied by the quote means that the game would be based off of them. The same holds true for the killer side as well.
If this game was properly balanced, solo queue wouldn't be painful because you wouldn't have bad survivors in high ranks. The ranking system would solve itself. Bad players that have no concept of teamwork would be in the low ranks, and good players with a knowledge of the game and teamwork would be at the top.
This is the elegance of balancing the game around the best players, because then there's a definite point where the devs can go 'ok this [whatever] is being abused too much, we have to change it.'
You need to understand that the ranking system and the failure to implement a proper one is by far the most fundamental issue with this game, and most other issues this game has with balance could be ironed out with a proper ranking system.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230336#Comment_1230336
Congratulations, you either faced a terrible killer or had an OP setup then. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't extrapolate to the general playerbase.
And basing the game on the general playerbase is by far the worst thing you can do in game design, especially in a pvp game.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230285#Comment_1230285
Carrying as solo survivor only exists when broken setups exist. Unless the killer misplays horribly, there's no way a single survivor can last long enough to "1v1 comfortably" in newer maps without OP connected tiles.
I don't have the numbers on that but the streamer population proportion probably matches the general playerbase proportion. This game needs to be roughly 4 survivors to 1 killer in order to work. Besides, I've seen many killer streamers roflstomp survivors while playing attention to chat and stuff. It's because those people are obscenely good at the game when compared to the general player and nothing else. Of course the role where you interact with your opponent for 25 ish% of the match is gonna be more laid back, but that's, once again, a design thing not a balance thing.
And all of that goes out the window when talking about snowball killers. A killer can win a game just as quickly as they can lose it as most killers. If every single killer was at a power level of, let's say, Huntress and above, this game wouldn't be survivor sided anymore besides very few deathsquads, which are far too uncommon to have the game be balanced around them.
If you're facing an average red rank solo survivor squad you absolutely do not need a weak link in order to win. Then you can argue that some red rank survivors don't belong at red ranks, to which I respond that quite a few red rank killers don't belong at red ranks either, because the ranking system is awful.
One more thing: bloodlust was created primarily because of infinites and god loops. It belongs less and less in the game the more maps get updated.
"But the underlying problem to your argument is that ultimately a good survivor group will have a very high survival rate against a good killer." If the survivors are on comms, yes, but we all know information is too important in this game. If they're not, I'd be willing to bet a good player playing a good killer might have the edge.
It is very easy to carry as a solo survivor.
If you think that having a small minority of the population being absolutely oppressive is fine, we just have different opinions on game philosophy.
I think this video needs to be constantly posted here because many problems with this game would be solved by it.
in fact, just between forum posts, i was able to run a killer for 3 gens with only using 2 pallets, and im not that good of a survivor player.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230261#Comment_1230261
You can argue the exact same thing for both sides. Truth is, the game does a poor job teaching people fundamentals - tiles, pathing, patrolling, when to give up chases, when it's safe to save or not. I don't blame the devs too much because those things are highly nuanced and subjective, but there are both survivors who rank up by playing immersed, doing gens and leaving without interacting with anyone else and killers who rank up by hard camping and tunnelling without learning how the game works from within. The core difference is that in these forums survivors are entitled and should "git gud" while killers are somehow victims of game design and shouldn't be held accountable for their own failures. As long as we have double standards like this being so widely accepted here, it's very hard to have productive discussions.
But the underlying problem to your argument is that ultimately a good survivor group will have a very high survival rate against a good killer. The only balancing factor that survivors have is the weak link on their team because this game does a poor job putting people in a rank that they belong.
A survivor that knows how to play is very oppressive in their own right 1v1 vs a killer. Usually, if the other 2 survivors know how to hit skillchecks, if you are unfortunate enough to run into the 2 good survivors on a team, you have already wasted enough time for those two survivors to throw the game in their favor, even if you abandon the chases quickly.
The simple fact of the matter is that survivor is very laid back. There's a reason why most of the streamers for this game play survivor, because you can effectively be distracted and doing something else while also having an extremely easy time surviving even solo.
The only part of the game where killer is oppressive is in the lower ranks where survivors barely even know how to hit skillchecks.
I have tried to get friends to play this game but they cite the fact that this game is too heavily survivor sided and thus not fun as their reasons for not playing. This isn't even an opinion, there's a reason why killers get bloodlust, because the game is broken in the survivors' favor.
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@Peanits said:
That's an awfully big blanket statement, and those don't tend to help anyone.
Yes, sometimes people just don't bother cleansing the totems in spite of the match going very well and then get hit by NOED. That's not all matches, though. There are times when the match is really close and they simply don't have time to go look for all the totems. Especially when you've got someone using a strong killer with 3 slowdown/regression perks on a map with very well hidden totems, stopping to go find all five totems is easier said than done and would probably do more harm than good.
To dismiss them all as lazy is a pretty lazy excuse.
I think the problem is that the game just doesn't force survivors to learn it. You don't need to understand the intricacies of pathing, anti gen patrol, looping, or with the recent ruin nerf, even finding totems because totem perks are so weak. The only thing you really need to learn how to do as a survivor is hit skill checks and be able to approach a hook and unhook someone. You're given plenty of perks to mitigate any problems you have with looping the killer or being chased by the killer. The fact that the majority of totems spawn in quite plain sight also exacerbates this, so when survivors feel forced to learn where totems are, they can just rely on how common it is for a totem to spawn near a gen and use the gens as markers.
So while it isn't explicitly laziness, it's more of a lack of real challenge the game gives survivors so they feel like they don't have to do totems, they can just slam gens and reliably survive just basically doing that.
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@GoddessStacia said:
In their most recent QnA stream, Ethan argues how that killer should exhibit pressure onto the survivor by gaining movement speed throughout the chase. I find this argument to be pretty weak. A survivor should not be punished by outmaneuvering the killer in a chase. If the killer is being out-skilled then they should not be rewarded with a compensation speed boost to make up for their misplays. If you as the killer is chasing a survivor for extended period of time, then it is more smart/efficient to leave that survivor to pressure others that are on generators. My argument to the devs is that as the killer there are other ways to exhibit pressure around the map than just giving killers a free and undeserved movement speed boost. This discourages killers to play better and instead fall back on a buff that they will inevitably get. This also makes those unsafe pallet 50/50 mind games much less fun. Thanks to bloodlust, the killer is able to down the survivor not because they won the mind game, but because they didn't have to break the pallet and bloodlust passively allowed them to get the cheeky hit on the survivor because suddenly they can move much faster. This meant that it didn't matter how well the survivor played the mind game and that the killer was eventually going to catch up to you with their bloodlust no matter what.
Tofu explains this very well in his most recent video, so if you have time please give it a watch.
Survivors get BT SB DH DS IW Adrenaline all to nullify their mistakes, why do you have a double standard for killers?
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I just can't believe survivors chose to make their stand against such a weak and almost entirely useless perk.
If killers couldn't get multiple kills off of noed, you'd see it used a lot less. When you know the killer has noed, just escape and give the killer the kill. This simple solution would see Noed basically killed.
I'm not even going to say do totems, just don't be greedy.
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survivor gameplay is braindead, which puts survivors in ranks that they shouldn't be in. We are then given statistics on red ranks with a massive survivor population inflation, which then is used to nerf killers into the ground and buff survivors.
There is no attempt to curb SWF which absolutely breaks the game because it gives survivors too much information, and there's no real intention to make large changes to this game on top of that the time between patches is extremely long considering the amount of people that play this game and how many millions of dollars BHVR can throw at their dev teams.
If you want to have fun in this game, you have to play SWF, if you play solo survivor or killer, you're not going to have a good time.
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the devs will tell you that this system can be abused, and completely ignore the fact that the current system in place is also abused.