Vulgun
Vulgun
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Community Priority Feedback
This feedback post is reserved for all posts that get 100+ upvotes.
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@Kill_Yr_Idol83 said:
It truly is terrible what they did to him especially for console players who are already handicapped playing him with a controller. All he needed was a buff to his movement speed to about 112% and he would've been fine. SMH.
112% is just Tier I NOED and it doesn't do much for him.
I would've preferred he just get a 115% movement speed and infinite hold on Main Event or just not receive the PTB-to-Live nerfs he got since that'd never happen. While I originally thought that the PTB changes were good, I've come to the realization and understanding that they were not what he needed.
The problem that the development team has is that they went and changed a whole bunch of things when the two solutions to making him a better-playing Killer were slapping them across the faces. If there's two solutions and one of them is more complicated than the other, but both lead to the same result, wouldn't it be preferable to just go with the easier solution?
The current Trickster needs to just be flat out replaced with something else. This new Trickster is an abhorrent mess of a Killer and he's arguably worse than he was originally. Somehow, that's a possible thing to do.
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@TAG said:
Amanda's Secret is worse IMO. That actively takes away something from the Pig and replaces it with something way worse. Field combat manual does not do that at least.
Amanda's Secret is a better Jill's Sandwich. It removes your ability to see the Jigsaw Boxes, but grants you a notification of when a Survivor takes the bear trap off and lets you see their aura.
Jill's Sandwich just lets you see the aura of a Survivor when they open a crate, which is purely up to chance on if you'll even see it.
Field Combat Manual, meanwhile, just highlights a Zombie when it hits a Survivor. When it hits a Survivor.
When it does one of the rarest things that can happen in this game.
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Addendum
In the event the Shattered S.T.A.R.S. Badge add-on suggestion isn't well-received, I have an alternative version I would like to share. If you enjoy this version more, or think this one's more realistic, do upvote it.
Shattered S.T.A.R.S. Badge
- For 60 seconds after reaching Tier II Mutation, gain a 5% movement speed increase.
- Upon reaching Tier III Mutation, gain a permanent 5% movement speed increase.
- Considerably increases the amount of Mutation points required to reach Tier III Mutation.
- Tremendously increases Tentacle Strike's range at Tier III.
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Bruh, he's asking for this add-on to be nerfed.
Dude, you weren't here when Huntress had the ability to carry MULTIPLE Iri Head hatchets. Hell, I wasn't even here when that was there, and I still remember it as if it were a traumatic memory.
There's a reason she can only run one hatchet at a time with Iri Head.
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This game has some very potato latency with regards to hit detection. That's to be (unfortunately) expected.
And yet we get the fancy new chapters and skins without any changes to the actual problems at hand until it's far too late. Holy hell, BHVR has their priorities backwards.
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Imagine thinking that making yourself vulnerable by performing a bad play, where your back is exposed to the Killer that's in range to grab you, is a bad mechanic.
I've seen some very bad feedback, but this takes the sacrificial cake on this one. You put yourself in danger, you made a poor decision, you gotta live with the consequences, buddy. Can't handle it? Play another game while you wait for your friends to finish all the gens and leave you because you were THAT much of a ninny.
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@Seiko300 said:
Here's my question:
Why are the Evil Within killer options the artist and the obscura? Why not The Keeper?? Personal opinion aside it seems to me that he's the most popularly requested killer pick from the franchise, and seems to fit the tone and theme of Dead By Daylight the best.
The Keeper was actually what got me interested in The Evil Within games and provoked a bunch of research into it.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VBF3IJ6Z9WLV/image.png
Evil Within aside I'd really like more of an effort to be made to make The Thing a viable killer candidate beyond its shapeshifting ability, which would in all likelihood function as a secondary power that gives stealth. A chapter about The Thing would be absolutely magnificent.
Honorable mention is an original water/nautical-themed chapter, it's my most wanted original concept (although a firefighter killer comes close) for a long time now. A killer in a vintage scuba suit or old sailor or perhaps an old naval officer or even a pirate would be super cool.
Also there are so many options for a nautical themed map. "The Lighthouse", "The Docks" or "The Dockyard", "The Isle" or "The Island", it all sounds super cool.
My reason for Stefano w/Obscura over The Keeper is because of the fact that aside from The Keeper's ability to warp across areas by dying or killing itself and re-emerging in another safe head thing (which is already derivative of Hag and Nightmare), he has nothing else going for him.
Stefano and Obscura, meanwhile, would be more focused on Stefano's time pocket-based abilities and Obscura's progression-denial ability as a summonable partner to Stefano. While The Keeper is the most popular pick, he's also one of the least imaginative ones of the bunch (being more imaginative than Sadist and Laura, but less so than Ruvik, Theodore and definitely Stefano).
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So far the leads are:
- Seas of the Damned with 6 votes
- The Thing with 5 votes
- And Persona with 4 votes
We're also coming close to the first "Vote Goal" of this poll. One more vote on anything will seal the deal with the art.
Also, just in case anyone's curious, in the event that the poll ends up in a tie, I will run a secondary poll that lasts 3 days that will be the definitive tie-breaker. If that is SOMEHOW also a tie, then I will just pick whichever chapter's more appealing for me.
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Addendum: I'll be setting a "Vote Goal" for each nominee.
If all nominees get past 25 votes, I'll draw up concepts for the Survivor and Killer.
If all nominees get past 50 votes, I'll draw up the icons for the Perks.
If all nominees get past 75 votes, I'll draw a full art of the Survivor and Killer.
If all nominees get past 100 votes, I'll (hate the fact that I'll have to) draw the concept of the map.
Of course, only the winning nominee will get these done, so again, choose wisely.
EDIT: Now instead of "a" nominee, it's "all nominees". If all nominees get to these goals, I'll do said goals for the winning vote.
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@Milo said:
My only question is, why would you ever want to Main Event with your changes then?
You don't. Remember this guy? Remember how he played in Smash 4 once he got Limit? That's how I envision Death Throes Compilation to be in essence. Unlimited speed-up at full charge but if you use it, you use it when necessary.
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@Soulpaw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329733#Comment_2329733
Because it was asked already for permission at the time of the license was obtained. Since the anniversary crowns are all different each year, they need to make contact again for it. Not all companies/license owners will be available to discuss these kinds of things, heavily depends on the license that we are dealing with.
Well, let's see...
They still have a year to talk it out with them, and likely have multiple people out there trying to discuss deals with various companies. Surely, surely this would've come up in talks at some point.
Also, why would you need to ask for permission to just add some sort of thing that is not even attached to your character's body? It's ridiculous to think that charms are okay for Survivors, but crowns? Crowns draw the line?
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@Soulpaw said:
i would love for it but the problem is licensing, getting in contact with every license holder and asking for permission to do this and it can be difficult to get into contact with said licenses.
They have a literal year to do this. Every year. And probably only need to ask once.
Also, if the problem really is licensing, then let me just ask this question, for all of you. If the issue was licensing, why do all licensed characters get P3 skins, by default? These alter the Survivor and Killer more than the crowns do (as the crowns don't change a thing), ergo wouldn't that mean that they too are exclusive to non-licensed characters?
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@FFirebrandd said:
Those changes will make Survivors hate playing against him even more than Deathslinger. Possibly more than Spirit too.
At no point should Trickster be able to move faster while throwing knives than Survivors. If Trickster is faster while throwing what exactly is a Survivor supposed to do when Trickster "back revvs" them with knives? Especially with Main Event which doesn't have the stacking slowdown on it.
There are a few buffs in here that would be welcome. Main Event not decaying, entering and leaving throw state, recoil, Diamond Cufflink's buff. rewording Death Throes Compilation. Those buffs should all be fine and be welcome changes to Trickster that won't break him. But overall... there's just way too many, too powerful buffs here.
I will give you one thing though. If your changes did go through, he wouldn't lose basically all the reasons that I personally play him, so props for that. I've seen too many proposed Trickster reworks that would butcher him from my point of view.
I've added two additional things:
- Showstopper's movement speed reaches its slowest speed faster (at 20 blades instead of 30). This means that by 10 blades, Trickster will be well under 4 meters per second, allowing escape.
- Main Event's movement speed remains unchanged from its original 3.86m/s speed to allow some counterplay against it.
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@TripleSteal said:
Your poll only offers the most extreme answers for whatever reason, and therefore is hard to participate in.
This event is at "meh" level imo.
If anyone does think it's "Meh", then I'll count it as a choice, though it'll have to be written.
Unfortunately I can't change the poll's answers. This forum is designed about as well as the game.
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@TapeKnot said:
You do realize that BHVR needs permission from the license holder to give them crowns, right?
You do realize that they had all the time in the world to do that, right?
You do realize that they allow characters to run charms as cosmetics to licensed characters, right?
You do realize that the license holders are fine with BHVR giving them Prestige skins, right?
You do realize that Demogorgon got DbD-exclusive skins, right?
But oh, a crown is tooootally a no-go.
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Let me clarify for those who don't understand; she's not going to be a harmless 4.4m/s M1 Killer like you're all suggesting.
This "Lightburn"-like effect only affects her visibility and nothing more. Spirit can still Phase Walk, but unlike before where she's invisible to a Survivor, if they actually get her, she will be visible for any Phase Walks she performs for 60 seconds, with an invincibility period of 20 more seconds. This means she can still move fast and do her things, but her being visible now makes her more predictable.
Also, not everyone is going to either be prepared or know when she Phase Walks. See, the only stipulation is that this occurs when she's performing the ability. Not before, not after. This means that in the right hands, Spirits can still juke Survivors and find ways to counteract this new effect.
@papichulo said:
- "This version of Lightburn prevents The Spirit from becoming invisible during a Phase Walk for 60 seconds."
Two questions: [1] Lightborn will counter this? [2] Why 60 seconds? Purple flashlight swf? Come on dude.
Lightborn will NOT counter it.
60 seconds is because otherwise this idea would be useless and Spirit would still be a little too powerful. As for the flashlights, there's things you need to consider:
- Spirit isn't going to be in every match in the game. You won't know it's a Spirit unless you're stream sniping someone. You could still go in a trial completely unprepared for the Power and its weakness.
- This only activates once she uses her power, and the light hits her. So if there's actually some sort of team that tries to take advantage of it, you can always, again, find ways around it as Spirit. Maybe you go hide, maybe you fake phasing, maybe you do anything but sit in front of the Survivor trying to do Spirit things.
Also, you know what? Fine. Some add-ons will now reduce the total duration of the "Lightburn" effect that Spirit is inflicted. Not saying which, so come up with whichever add-on of hers fits with it.
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What's more astonishing is the fact that crowns have to be worn as a head piece anyway. Why not make crowns something like, I don't know...
A fourth cosmetic slot that goes ABOVE the head?
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@Mandy said:
We're going to monitor this map before enabling the offering - just to make sure that things are stable on it. As soon as we can, we will enable the offering again. You can still collect the offerings in your bloodweb in the meantime.
Using the Offering would help you guys, you know...
Solve the issues FASTER?
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Whenever members of The Legion are hit by Pallets they will utter the following phrases:
- "Damn you...!" (Frank)
- "I'll gut your entrails for that!" (Frank)
- "Oh, keep running..." (Frank)
- "You're next...!" (Frank if he is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Dirty-" (Frank if he is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Think that's going to stop me?" (Julie after being stunned)
- "Why you...!" (Julie)
- "I'll kill you!" (Julie)
- "Keep running." (Julie)
- "Tick...tock...!" (Julie if she is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Playing cheap, are we...?" (Julie if she is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Gack!" (Susie)
- "Why won't you just die?!" (Susie)
- "You're postponing death." (Susie)
- "I'll cut you to ribbons for that!!" (Susie if she is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Now...I'm pissed..." (Susie if she is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Playing hard to get...I like..." (Joey after being stunned)
- "Keep going..." (laughs) (Joey)
- "Don't worry, I'll catch up." (Joey)
- "Better start running..." (Joey if he is stunned by someone outside of chase)
- "Your skull's going to make a nice mantle." (Joey after being stunned)
- "That's not going to stop me." (Joey after being stunned)
- "You're running out..." (all if there's less than 6 active pallets on the map left)
Whenever members of The Legion are stunned by any source of light, they will utter the following phrases:
- "My eyes!" (Frank)
- "God damn it! I can't see!" (Frank if he is hit by a Flash Grenade or Blast Mine)
- (screams of agony) (Julie)
- (screams of even more agony) (Julie if she is hit by a Flash Grenade or Blast Mine)
- "Where are you?! I know you're here...!" (Susie)
- "That's it! No more games!!" (Susie if she is hit by a Flash Grenade or Blast Mine)
- "That's cute." (Joey)
- "Seriously?" (Joey if he is hit by a Flash Grenade or Blast Mine)
Whenever members of The Legion are stunned by Decisive Strike:
- "Oh, now you've done it." (Frank)
- "I'll flay your skin slowly when I find you." (Julie)
- "Why me...?!" (Susie)
- "Damn it!" (scoffs) "Smart one..." (Joey)
And this concludes what would make Legion better; a new rework full of unique and interesting abilities that would put DbD to its knees, but would be, at least in my opinion, the single most fun and interesting character to play as in Dead by Daylight.
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@Milo said:
I'm gonna start with this: Yes, please go make your own game, cause most if not all of these ideas are just straight up awful.
Bloodpoint Gains
That's cool. Neat, small change that would (if you escape) guarantee almost 8k points. Would slightly fix survivor points problem.
Generator Repair
And we immediately fall on our faces. Survivors don't want to spend even longer on gens. But (and that's a big but) you "reworked" Prove Thyself to out-value this 40s increase. So basically EVERYONE would run Prove Thyself. I'm gonna continue this on the perk itself.
Totem Cleansing
Do you want survivors not to do totems? Or do you just want games to last longer? Or do you want Counterforce to be run in every game? I think you legit want to change the meta from 4-5 same perks to... 4-5 diffrent perks. (and as Clarity above me mentioned, Undying exists)
Healing
Neat.
Hatch Escape
Do you mean after 20 seconds of it being closed or it can be open in 20 seconds (like the total time)? If so, why?
Items
Keys and Maps
Oh that's why. Still, it doesn't make much sense to me? Could you explain why?
Wooden Planks and Iron Pipes
And this also needs a little bit explaining - when you activate the item, does it have a charge time? Do you become immune to damage and "reflect" the attack back at the killer? How long does the killer have to wait to not get recoiled?
Dodge Roll
Does it function the same as Dead Hard or (again) are you immune for a period of time?
Perks
Retired Perks
"either due to their ineffectiveness or being filler" "Balanced Landing, Spine Chill, Resilience, Rookie Spirit"
You're joking right? ALSO you can't just delete perks and not replace them WITHOUT mentioning anything about teachable system. (also funny how for example Stake Out isn't here)
Adrenaline
Ye.
Any Means Necessary
Isn't really needed, but could be added.
Babysitter
I'm against giving the unhooker Borrowed Time, but the amount of time is so low that it wouldn't matter. (also for how long are you broken)
Bite the Bullet
And I just disagree, because while yes, this perk needs a buff imo, it needs a diffrent one. It also working when you're the one being healed would be great.
Borrowed Time
Ok.
Breakout
Um... okay?
Counterforce
This at the same time is a nerf and a buff. Depends on how many totems per game the person who runs this actually does. So I'll refuse to speak more about this until I run it more.
Decisive Strike
- Hell no
- How would the game force the survivors to only run one decisive?
Deliverance
So what is the 2nd hook stage then? Just you chillin?
Distortion
Idk if it being a team perk is a good buff but it's interesting.
Flashbang
"Flashbangs that are within a 4 meter radius of the Killer will now stun them out of any actions they are performing, including pallet breaking and hooking. This is on a cooldown of 120 seconds to prevent abuse."
I disagree. +the cd doesn't make sense.
Flip-Flop
(This isn't a rework if you change numbers). But again, I would say 75% but remove the cd.
Head On
You're legit trolling at this point.
Hope
Why are we nerfing meh perks at best?
Left Behind
I like it, it's like a mix of old Left Behind with the new one... however that doesn't mean it's good. Repair and cleansing is useless at that point.
Mettle of Man
NO
Off the Record
So let's talk about this for a second - you classify this as a nerf but it's clearly a rework. But then a question, if you want it nerfed... why?
Prove Thyself
And we're back to generator repairs problem! EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE will use this. You keep the added bonus of working together AND 10% for great skillchecks AND it basically stacks (if everyone uses their own Prove Thyself).
Smash Hit
Holy crap this is overpowered. One stun and you basically end the chase. 5 seconds of a stun AND 4 seconds a sprintburts. This is only a problem on safe pallets but then again you can drop these early.
Soul Guard
Again, how would the game force it. 2nd while this is interesting (and doesn't make sense on Undying) I doubt this can be programmed into the game for it work.
Sprint Burst
Okay, this is a change because Dead Hard became base kit. Fair enough.
Unbreakable
Removing the DS+Unbreakable, understandable. However what do you mean "It will no longer activate". Why? That just seems so out of place for no reason.
We're Gonna Live Forever
... Any other ways to get tokens? No...?
Alright, time to answer all of these in a manner that makes my points understandable, and also time for me to fix a few "meh" ideas I had when writing it up.
Generator Repairs
I'll get to this later.
Totems
I want Totems to have a reasonable base amount of cleansing required to take them down, not a simple 14 second (or significantly less) cleansing that would make it nigh-on impossible to keep them after the first 30 seconds of a matchh.
If need be, I can add that Totems can be cleansed by two people at the same time for a 25% boost in cleansing speeds. Plus, Counterforce itself would also work in handy here since you can run it to make it 75% or even 125%, which is admittedly both lower or higher than current; it's a change that would give the perk some use alongside its change.
Hatch Escape
If the hatch is closed, Survivors can try to go for it immediately to try and open it. The opening time is 20 seconds, but you can attempt to open it whenever. Opening time is also cumulative and doesn't reset.
Keys and Maps
So Keys are just plain dumb to play against; if a Survivor is smart (or just has good memory), they can just EZ escape a hatch around the end of the match. Escape shouldn't be that easy for anybody, so keys needed to be removed.
But I didn't want to lose all of the aura-reading abilities of keys. Those are really good for the game, so they would belong on the maps instead. I'd probably also rework maps so that they are one rarity less so they pop up a little more often.
Wooden Planks and Iron Pipes
When you activate the item:
- Charge time is 0.25 seconds
- You gain a "parry detection hitbox" in front of you for 0.3 seconds.
- If you are successful, you will know from the item breaking or the Killer recoiling.
- The winddown for missing is 3 seconds, but hitting is 1 second for Wooden Plank.
- The winddown for missing is 5 seconds, but hitting is 0.5 seconds for Iron Pipe.
This means Killers don't need to wait too long for the parry to run out. The counter detection hitbox is also pretty huge since it needs to be for latency. It's about 2 meters long in a 70 degree cone.
Dodge Roll
It's Dead Hard as a native and universal Survivor ability.
Retired Perks
Balanced Landing was included because I changed Sprint Burst to be an ability you can activate rather than something that just happens. This means that there's no 75% reduction in stagger, but you can use Sprint Burst to just accelerate yourself. If I were to not retire it, then it would just be a reduction perk; 50% reduction in stagger at most, but no exhaust.
Spine Chill is removed because it's honestly NOT a good perk. Yes, I'm aware it's good for trying to track when a Killer is looking at you (outside their terror radius), but it is heavily inconsistent and its other effects are even more inconsistent since they almost never occur (due to the Killers primarily not targeting you if they look in your direction).
Resilience is also like Spine Chill; not good, and arguably worse because not only do you have to be Injured, but some Killers just run Stridor. If you want, I could probably replace Resilience and Spine Chill with something that grants a native 7% increase in repairs for 10/12/14 seconds whenever the Killer looks into your direction, but that increase in repairs is further increased to 15% whenever you are injured as well. Then add a cooldown of 30 seconds afterwards and boom, Spine Chill + Resilience but at least moderately better.
Also maps would be great for Killer location now, just saying.
Rookie Spirit is actually extremely laughable, and I love Leon as a character. I'd probably replace Rookie Spirit with something like, I don't know, perhaps a perk that probably ties into Leon's side of justice; something more befitting to his character. Maybe if you take a protection hit for somebody else within a certain range, they get inspired by your bravery and gain a brief boost of speed or something. Something to help the team out in chase.
Babysitter
- You are broken for 60/50/40 seconds.
- And for Firellius specifically:
- The idea for this is that it gives you time to save the hooked Survivor and protect them. It gives you a chance to unhook the Survivor, then do a second protection hit for them; two different Endurance Status effects at the same time, which is meant for some very clutch plays.
- You are literally "risking it all" for those in need, as the description says. You are constantly body-blocking to ensure your teammate escapes.
Bite the Bullet
- A Nurse's Calling is absolute BS even for the Killer side. It needs some sort of counterplay to it.
- But making it so that you are also silent when being healed would be nice.
Decisive Strike
- What I wanted to do with Decisive Strike was make it "literally the clutch move it's meant to be". So one time use, can use it at any time when the opportunity is right.
- As for how the game can force it, simple. Decisive Strike acts like Prove Thyself. It simply won't work if multiple players try to run it.
- So how is this solved? Simple:
- Decisive Strike guarantees that you are the Obsession.
- If Decisive Strike and Soul Guard are used at the same time, Decisive Strike's effect takes precedence. Soul Guard's effect only takes place after Decisive Strike is used.
- If two players run Decisive Strike or Soul Guard, the player with Decisive Strike will always be the Obsession.
- If the Decisive Strike player dies or uses Decisive Strike, the Soul Guard player then becomes the Obsession.
- This is to prevent the two abilities from overlapping and creating a busted set of perk combos that would just be another DS Unbreakable.
Deliverance
- The second hook state acts completely like the first. This means that you have the ability to negate the "Struggle Phase" when running Deliverance.
- This would be reasonable for two reasons; one, you will still be dead on hook if you are hooked twice already and then hooked a third time, and two, it would make sense that Deliverance allows you to escape hooks after helping others.
Flashbang
- See, that buff is only there because I want funny stuff to happen.
- And the "cooldown" is a stun cooldown, not a cooldown on earning or using the Flash Grenades or their blinding effect. Just the stun.
Flip-Flop
- Fair.
Head On
- No, screw that Perk and its absolute horse dung of a hitbox.
- But if you want it to be a reasonable nerf, then fine. 80/70/60 seconds.
Hope
- It's its combination with other perks that makes it awful to play against, especially for some Killers who don't have extra mobility or good ranged attacks. Hope alone against endgame Trickster means he only runs 3% faster than you (not accounting for any speed boost perk like NOED or PWYF.
Left Behind
- The repair and cleansing is actually good for extra BP and stackable perks. So basically you can further try to reward yourself at the risk of getting caught, but you yourself now have the willpower to try and best the Killer in any way possible.
- And with the right perks, it could be a monster.
Mettle of Man
- 3 minutes of cooldown is pretty huge compared to its original 0 seconds of cooldown. You're not going to get this often, but when you do, it'll feel a little more rewarding and earned.
- Also because it sucks right now.
- I'm a Killer main asking for a Mettle of Man buff.
Off the Record
- It's a rework that's also a nerf. The reason I want it to be changed like this is to prevent abuse from using it for the entire match. 4 minutes is both long and short, but it's a fair number of time that I would give to it simply because I would find it more fair.
Prove Thyself
- Prove Thyself can only be used by one person and again:
- The perk completely deactivates if a toolbox is used.
- However this in and of itself would be awful, so it would just force Prove Thyself to be on a 30 second cooldown at most.
- The perk being only usable if all players aren't trying Toolbox repairs would make it so that things such as 2 second generators simply do. Not. Happen.
- Yes, many people will still run it, but I wanted to strike at what makes it extremely powerful, not at what makes it useful.
- Oh and one more thing:
- The window for Great Skill Checks is continuously reduced to almost nothing when running Prove Thyself. This means if you want to get that 10% bonus, you better be getting some REALLY good shots in.
- By continuously reduced:
- 1 Survivor: Normal (100% Size)
- 2 Survivors: 50%
- 3 Survivors: 30%
- 4 Survivors: 25%
- This means that each Skill Check is going to be so tiny that you'll deserve getting those hits in.
Smash Hit
- This ends chase...
- But it also gets rid of potential god pallets quicker.
- Also, it would make Enduring pretty decent and relevant.
- And also, it only activates if you're NOT exhausted, giving it some balance.
Soul Guard
- Unlike Decisive, the method in whichever Soul Guard can be used can be determined by whomever has the ability. So let's say that you and someone run Soul Guard, both cleansed totems.
- Whoever is the Obsession first gets their "getup" first, then the next person, so long as the Obsession's is on cooldown at the time.
- If the Obsession dies, you become the new Obsession and inherit the abilities in full. (Like a Soul Guard.)
- Or a better method is to just be able to see the builds of your teammates before the match starts and change accordingly.
- If no change happens, see the first three steps.
- As for it working on Undying, it's exactly how I said it. It just completely negates Undying's ability to spawn a second totem to "save" the Hex Perk. This is why cleansing speeds are so much higher.
Sprint Burst
- Also because Balanced.
Unbreakable
- I want Decisive Strike and Unbreakable to seem like two perks that will come in clutch at the end, but not something that should be combined whatsoever.
- So when I mean "it will no longer activate", I mean that if you try to run Decisive Strike and Unbreakable, you cannot use Unbreakable. You cannot use two clutch perks like this. That's my stance.
We're Gonna Live Forever
- New methods of getting We're Gonna Live Forever:
- Granting someone the Endurance status effect under any circumstance.
- Cleansing a Hex Totem that would affect the health of your teammates (i.e. Third Seal, NOED, Devour, etc.)
- Healing a Survivor back to full health by yourself.
- Letting a teammate vault before you.
- Successfully getting a Survivor 16 meters away from the Basement.
- Using Unbreakable or Soul Guard to pallet stun a Killer at any point.
- And 1 stack for each Survivor that gets out with you.
- Additionally, stacks of the perk can be seen to Survivors only near their icons, just so all Survivors can get maximum value out of it near the end.
These explanations help a little?
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@Emeal said:
Its a good idea to point out the flaws of the Original Power and why your solutions will remedy those in detail, when suggesting changes to a Power.
I don't think there's ANY reason to point out the flaws when just observing gameplay of or playing him will do the trick.
Besides, I'm more of a "to the point" person.
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@Afius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2317127#Comment_2317127
Iridescent add-ons are random though and honestly I don't think killers have any issues with getting blood points, I know I don't. Survivors on the other hand is a complete headache.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316089#Comment_2316089
Yeah you don't have to have perks but it's part of the gaming experience it's the equivalent to saying you don't need a specific gun in an fps to win you don't but it's part of the game.
I don't see the problem with getting new perks faster it actually speeds up the process in getting to a point in balancing then because they're being used at the top level with different perks to see their synergy and powerfulness you don't get that running them barebones.
Oho, you wanna know headache?
I ended up calculating how many Bloodpoints it'd take for all Survivors to 100% (Prestige III w/all Tier III Perks) and, not counting Items, Add-Ons and Offerings...
For all 27 Survivors, it would take approximately 153,009,000 Bloodpoints to 100% them. Yes, that's right; in order to 100% every single Survivor in the game currently and get all of their Perks on every single one, as well as Prestige them to P3, you need to spend this amount of Bloodpoints for the Perks alone.
This factors in the following:
- 27 Survivors
- Times 95 Perks at 5000
- Plus 95 Perks times 6000 (Tier III)
- Plus 92 Perks times 4000 (Tier II)
- Times 4 (Prestige 0 to Prestige 3)
- Plus 81 Perks times 5000 (Unlock Teachable)
Considering that Survivors have substantial issues in even earning Bloodpoints, and accounting for the fact that there will be items and add-ons, this means that Survivors would have to grind far too long in excess to unlock all Perks and Prestige them altogether.
Now if you want to simply unlock them all regardless and don't want to prestige, then divide the number without the teachables (152,604,000 BP) by 3 and then add on the 81 Teachables for 5000.
It would still cost 51,273,000 Bloodpoints to get all Survivor perks without needing to prestige.
But accounting for again, items and add-ons, this amount could just triple, quadruple, even become tenfold or hundredfold. I might've gotten my calculations off (forgive me if I have), but if the math serves me correct, this answer proves that the grind is far and beyond too substantial for any player (especially Survivors) to deal with.
This is why I suggested all that I suggested. It takes far too much in excess to do grind this game.
Bloodpoints are only earned through in-game actions and there are no systems that monetize progression (thank god, since we already have a pay-to-win system in the form of Killers, Survivors and other Perks), so there being this much grind, for survivors alone (who make around 20k in a match on average), is just extremely ludicrous.
The grind needs to be fixed. It doesn't need to be monetized. It doesn't need light band-aid patches.
It needs.
A damn overhaul.
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@Emeal said:
It isn't an issue really, because most perks you don't really need, if you learn to play well, perks are really just crutches.
The grind issue is an illusion cause you can do fine with Tier 1 Perks too.
What DOES need to change is how easy it is to level a character to get the teachables that are good for new Survivors/Killers.
See, the grind isn't even an illusion and you'll perform significantly worse with Tier I perks than Tier III perks.
At no point will you perform as well as you would with Tier I Play With Your Food or Adrenaline than you would Tier III versions of those same perks.
@Hex_Ignored said:
These changes would be such a relief but alas the grind wasn't even mentioned in the last stream, so they don't see it as a problem apparently
They don't see it as a "problem" because they're making money and still somehow keeping players. In all honesty, this is easily one of the biggest issues of the game in general (not counting bugs), and so many fans wanted this grind to be made better.
If this is somehow not on their radar, then they're failing to give what the community wants.
They have to realize that the grind for players (especially Survivors) is extremely arduous and new players will just get frustrated and leave to play another (and better) game instead. No one wants to have to spend such an incredibly long time to unlock everything that should be more readily available.
@fogdonkey said:
Removing perk tiers is a good enough solution for now.
Giving more bloodpoints has this issue: someone who does not care about leveling up new characters could use all these bloodpoints to run the strongest iri add-ons all the time. So you should somehow also address the addon balance in your proposal
My suggestion:
Well, the idea of giving more BP is still a double-edged sword. It gives Killers more Iri add-ons to work with, but also gives Survivors more items and tools to work with. The add-on/item balance won't be that much of an issue anyway, in spite of the fact that there'd be a substantial increase in Bloodpoints earned and the maximum capacity of them.
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@CornHub said:
In any game where a character is bannable, people never learn to play around them with a good team, & instead get stomped whenever they don't get banned. Games like that always have the worst balancing issues too.
Sometimes there are games out there where one character is far too oppressive to the point where no one else but a select couple of characters could be feasibly playable otherwise.
One major example is that of Meta Knight in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, the character that killed the game. In a sense, Nurse is this game's Meta Knight (while Spirit is this game's Ice Climbers). An extremely oppressive character that can be very unfun to play against at almost any level and is practically what you'll need to run at top level to gain favorable results.
This is also the reason I made this poll in the first place; to gauge whether or not the community would even be up for potentially just banning a character in the first place. A willingness to ban a character for being oppressive or unfun to play against would be healthier for the game itself. In fact, that could happen for just about anything that could hinder this game's overall health from all points of view.
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You all make some interesting arguments, some more compelling than others.
I've also looked at the results and I'm surprised on how unfavorable The Spirit is versus The Nurse. In fact, I'm surprised that The Spirit's got more votes (at the time of writing this) than "no bans".
While this is a small sample size, I assume that the community just commonly dislikes The Spirit. And I can see why; high mobility and too much unpredictability with little to no counter. But I was thinking that The Nurse would be in a similar vein, considering she has high mobility and swift chase ending potential.
Keep going, guys. I'm interested to see what more comes out from this.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
I could probably name about 10 add ons that are worse
If their trade-off is better Bloodpoint rewards during score events, they are not worse.
If they are trade-offs in general, they are not worse.
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@TAG said:
Can you even name a single worse add-on in the game?
Amanda's Secret, Waterlogged Shoe, almost every single add-on that inflicts a self-imposed penalty in exchange for Bloodpoints. All off the top of my head.
You still gain a benefit for using them. Yes, there's something that penalizes you, but you still get something back.
Field Combat Manual gives you no benefit at all. I'd rather have something that trades off your benefit than something that doesn't benefit you at all.
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@TripleSteal said:
Well, cannibal has an add-on that makes his M2 injure survivors rather than down them; kind of hard to beat this killer's equivalent of no mither.
I know full well about Speed Limiter, but even that has its synergies when given other add-ons, and it still compensates with more points per scoring event.
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@Ruma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2301504#Comment_2301504
Why BBQ then? There are tons of better information perks.
Because it's a progression perk. It makes the game significantly more tolerable to earn your Perks, Add-Ons, etc.
Plus, it stacking with Offerings is REALLY godlike.
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My favorite bug was the Pallet Stun bug.
It was the first bug I was introduced to in the game and I legit thought it was a new way to outplay the Survivor. Oh, how I miss those days.
My second favorite bug was the "Select Killer before Match" bug. Unfortunately that one had to be patched out for no reason.
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@landromat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2298274#Comment_2298274
If you don't like things it's normal to not want to see them you know
Then play an offering to not get the map.
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Imagine if Prestige reduced the cost of Bloodweb items.
That'd make the game a shedload more tolerable and give incentive to actually Prestige.
I don't think anyone really cares about the Prestige cosmetics.
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If people dislike the layout of the map, it's time to play RE2.
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@skiodid7345 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2291014#Comment_2291014
First off, Killers don't need multiple weapons to have a power, that would be like saying "The legion doesn't fit in this game because they don't change the knife they're using when in FF"
Secondly, this game wouldn't immediately die just because a character that isn't super tall or average height is added to this game, and nobody I know that plays this game finds victors small size to be frustrating at all
By secondary weapon, I meant a weapon for his power, so in essence, he doesn't have much of a power aside from being a small, decently powerful and swift being; almost sounds like The Legion, in a way. And his ability to do voodoo magic wouldn't really fit in the context of Dead by Daylight since there's no situation in which he would feasibly be capable of going.
Also, no one finds Victor's small size frustrating or infuriating because he moves around fast, is normally used by people with accuracy problems, and he is just an extension of The Twins, not the main package. Imagine if you have to face a Killer who is just THAT small for the entirety of the game, with no penalty to hitting you, no way to beat them, and the ability to obscure themselves in areas small enough to make it almost impossible to tell where they're coming from.
Not to mention, Chucky's extremely small height would be the worst experience for the Killer. Again, Victor is only tolerable because he's not the main part of the two characters: Charlotte is. Imagine a Killer whose height is the size of Victor's, but they're a 110 or 115 Killer, and you have to play them for the entire game. You more than likely won't even notice that a Survivor's gone from a loop until it's too late, which would be frustrating.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2291714#Comment_2291714
Sounds to me the problem lies more with Chris then? How would amanda overpower a 25 year old military veteran and former officer of a special tactics force. Or Ghostface. Or Clown. Leatherface is also just a human. How would a mere human stand up against the supersoldier
By your logic it's better to discard Chris then right? Instead of half the killer roster
Cause if this is such a problem then BHVR can't make any killers anymore that aren't some overpowered monstrocity. seems like a lot of creativity going to waste. Better just discard Chris so we don't have to worry about things not making sense in a video game.
Also I've been to knife training. If you are unarmed against someone with a knife who knows how to use it you're always at a risk. Don't care what training you got, how beefed you are or what special forces you belong to. You watch to many movies.
Not to mention that in the games Chris can die to a decomposed corpse biting him. He's not the hero in this game and therefor can't enjoy his usual plot armor.
Whatever you say. A killer that people payed for and enjoy won't be discarded just because you don't like a character you're fangirling over getting killed by them.
I'm not even a fan of Chris, but I can still tell when The Entity's power just wouldn't be enough for one Killer. If all four of the Survivors just teamed up on The Legion (which is a thing that's already done because The Legion is just that bad in-game), they would probably end up killing them instead of the usual way it's supposed to happen, because The Legion is that weak.
I want to discard the Legion as a character, but I don't want to completely disregard the entire concept, no no. The Legion can still be a Killer, but it would have to be under a different identity, something that would make much more sense in the context of the game and what The Legion was originally seemingly marketed to be.
I'd rather The Legion be discarded in their current concept for something a little more imaginative and less likely to be a Crappypasta knock-off.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Barely kills a survivor
yes cutting someone's ribcage open is just a scratchwound after all
You don't have to like the Legion. there are 20 other killers for you.
For me the thought of your friendly neighbours teenager going out at night killing people will always be more scary then some random made up monster.
Their Mori animation has the Survivor actually fighting back, which means that The Legion can feasibly be overpowered with enough teamwork and effort, if not just by a select few individual Survivors. That's "barely" being able to kill a Survivor.
Under no circumstance should a character like Jill or Chris be bested by some 19 year old homicidal punk when they have years of literal military and police service on their backs, and in Chris' case, he's fought worse. Even if The Legion were powered by The Entity, it seems like they were given so little. Or worse I don't see how some probably 15-16 year old high school girl (Susie), even WITH The Entity's power can defeat a 25 year old military veteran and former officer of a special tactics force.
My point is that The Legion, in terms of their lore, physical attributes and abilities, just don't make any sense as to why they were chosen as Killers, or why they are even kept as Killers. In all honesty, they should just be discarded.
@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2291600#Comment_2291600
And if you take more than two seconds you'll find various theories out there that support it.
Alternate versions, as in alternate realities, where in one, Meg/Suzie was brought up by her father instead of her mother, fell into the 'wrong crowd' and was taken by the entity earlier, etc.
Facts before theories, my guy. This theory holds no real water and has little evidence to support it, if any. Just because they both got pigtails and wear masks doesn't mean they are the same person.
@Altarf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2291623#Comment_2291623
That just seems like grasping at straws to me. There's literally no evidence for this in the slightest - less than no evidence, actually. Why would her name and face change when being taken in by her father? Not to mention the fact that if this theory is to be believed, then Julie is an allegory for Claudette, which just does not fit.
Plus there's the fact that Meg is American while Susie is also Canadian, which wouldn't really make much sense if they were the same person.
I'm going to agree and say that the Meg is Susie theory is a load of bologna and that the developers didn't actually put THAT much thought into every character and how they are connected.
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@Seraphor said:
They're supposed to be alternate versions of the four main survivors. Suzie even has Megs pigtails (and Meg has a cosmetic Suzie mask) The concept was meant to be killers who pretend to be survivors but that didn't really go as planned and they got a more watered down power.
That first sentence is a complete lie if you take two seconds to investigate the characters we're discussing.
Meg is probably the closest to being Susie's counterpart, but it's also stated that Susie is the youngest member of The Legion,, as it's implied she was taken by The Entity as a Sophomore, whereas Meg looks like she's probably graduated high school.
Also, I agree that the concept kind of fell flat on its face. The Legion, as they are right now, are probably the least redeemable Killers in terms of playstyle.
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@elpoh said:
Since with these buff, Nemesis can hit uncontaminated survivors, making syringes useless....
Can we add that survivors can use syringes to kill zombies?
Example:
Making a Zombie miss a hit, the Zombie Lights Red as Victor does, and you can inject the Syringe to it.
Killing a Zombie with a Syringe increase his respawn time.
Altered it so that Contamination has a very, VERY special system to it that makes it something dangerous and making Vaccines useful.
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@skiodid7345 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2290836#Comment_2290836
It's ok to be wrong sometimes
First off, Chucky has no power or ability, nor even a secondary weapon that would make him work.
Secondly, Chucky is about the size of Victor, which would not only make playing against him feel frustrating, but also playing as him feel frustrating. He'd be the Oddjob or Yoda of this game. And believe me, no one liked either of those in Goldeneye or Soul Calibur, respectively.
Chucky is just far too small and far too powerless to really be a decent choice for a Killer.
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Well, for me, this is my criteria on how I'd rate the Chapter experience, from a scale of 1 to 10:
- Killer
- Survivor(s)
- Map
- Performance and Technical
- Balance
As for my ratings and the explanations behind them, they are as follows:
- Killer: The Nemesis
- Rating: 2
- The Nemesis is a very underwhelming and mediocre Killer who is the only Killer in the game whose Power requires that you hit the Survivor three times in a row, with no real benefit over using his M1, which reaches further and deals a health state.
- Zombie AI and collision are also very awful and overall not a fun experience when they get stuck on unintended areas.
- Nemesis' only saving grace are the fun Perks known as Eruption and Lethal Pursuer, both of which can lead into interesting games.
- Survivor: Leon S. Kennedy
- Rating: 10
- Leon S. Kennedy is the best part of the chapter, not only due to his design, but his Perks. Rookie Spirit and Bite the Bullet are decent perks for new players to use and get used to the game, and Flashbang is probably the most fun Perk to play with and against.
- Survivor: Jill Valentine
- Rating: 1
- Jill Valentine, on the other hand, encapsulates the worst of the Survivor experience by "blessing" us with the biggest anti-everything Perks in the entire game. Resurgence grants too significant an advantage to players being unhooked, Blast Mine is simply annoying and gets even worse with other Perks, and Counterforce is the single worst-implemented Perk of all time due to how overpowered it will show itself to be.
- Map: Raccoon City Police Department
- Rating: 1
- As we currently cannot play on the Raccoon City Police Department, and due to the fact it had caused many crashes to players' games earlier, I cannot rate this any higher than a 1 since not only was I unable to experience the map, but also because it came with horrible technical issues.
- Performance and Technical
- Rating: 1
- This is the single worst patch for performance and technical issues that this game has seen yet, and this game has seen a significant amount of bugs on other patches, including the dreaded Pallet bug that was in just a few patches ago.
- FPS and performance issues, crashing with the R.P.D. map, collision issues in Red Forest, and an overall unfun experience as of late to the point where even the DC penalty has to be removed.
- Balance
- Rating: 1
- Once more, the developers show their complete disregard for actually making the game fun by balancing things that currently need to be fixed. Instead, we just get a new chapter with little changes done that would make a good impact.
- One of the more major changes of this patch was the significant nerf to Franklin's Demise, which now means that Keys have no counter, all because the developers couldn't hard code Nemesis' Vaccines to not break.
- And then there's no changes to anything else that would really improve the Survivor or Killer experience. A shameful patch for balancing.
Overall Chapter Rating: 2.6
This chapter is an overall disappointment that failed to really live up to the expectations set for it, as well as introducing a significant amount of performance issues that will more than likely plague the game for weeks, if not months.
This chapter is easily my second worst pick (the first being A Nightmare on Elm Street), and is definitely something I have complete buyer's remorse in getting, aside from Leon S. Kennedy and the Nemesis Perks. This chapter should have gone in another direction.
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Chucky should NEVER be in Dead by Daylight.
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Nemesis.
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So THAT'S why I've been having a better experience and getting into actual fun matches as Killer lately.
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@gilgamer said:
I completely agree with the vast majority of what you've said and I just hope it isn't ignored so I'm putting this comment down in hopes to boost the popularity of the post
Honestly, while I'm quoting this post in particular, I gotta thank y'all for all the support this thread's gotten. I'm hoping this thread can continue until (and maybe even after) a developer responds so we can finally make SOME sort of compromise to how things are working with communication and the game's health.
If we can get the developers to actually start listening to the people about the health of the game more, then that will be the success of this thread. But until then, I'm hoping to keep this thread alive so that the developers can't ignore it.
This game needs new direction, and so does communication with the community on the developers' parts.
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@maaadinsomniac said:
They're not able to do this not even when the game was only for Steam with like 1/5 characters and 1/3 maps.
If they weren't able to do it then, then that's quite the unfortunate thing to hear.
There are too many problems in this game that if they continue to ignore, it'll cause the game to just lose steam and popularity outright. I honestly want to keep this thread going until a developer at least responds or they finally come to the realization that the game needs to go into a better direction and avoid their inevitable fate as a deserted game.
I've honestly seen this with Overwatch and Resident Evil: Resistance, where the developers tend to not listen to common community consensus unless something egregious happens or they get competition that makes them wise up.
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@Kyxlect said:
Well, Behavior has said in the past that the graphical and programming teams are separate to make it seem like graphical changes aren't the issue but I think one thing is that the programming team does have to stop what they're doing to implement these graphical changes. So in that sense I do agree, they need to stop bogging down the programmers with graphical updates and other unnecessary things and fix issues in the game. Even something as minor as the ready up bug that's existed for at least a year if not longer where if you're searching for a match and cancel the search it's still searching for a match and will put you in a match even though you're likely AFK.
Another bug that's existed for over a year has to the grabbing one, where you're grabbing a Survivor off a gen or if they're unhooking someone then the game just says "Nope, that didn't happen.". On another unrelated note, I want this filter feature I hear was discussed among them about being able to decide if you, as a Killer, want to play against SWF's.
I personally wouldn't want to go against the programmers or the design artists too much, as the main people I harbor my disagreements with is those making the decisions for the game itself. The higher ups need to get it in their heads that the direction they're taking the game is not a good one.
No one is going to enjoy those fancy graphical updates, those new animations, those new legendary cosmetics, those new chapters and maps...
IF EVERYTHING IS BROKEN ALL THE DAMN TIME!
This, this is why I want someone, whether it be a programmer, graphics designer, or preferably one of the head developers of the game, to at least come out and communicate with us, the community, more often. They could even appoint a few people to be the bridge between them and us, it's not that hard to do that and it'd probably make things a whole lot smoother for everyone.
This would start solving so many issues outright instead of having the devs ignore them because it's possibly not worth their time. And no, McLean isn't enough to get us through; there should be at least one dedicated dev in every facet of the community; forums, Twitter, Twitch, etc.
Maybe there was a day where the developers of this game actually gave a damn about the community, and I envy anyone who had communications with the devs back in those days. If only the developers could just step up.
Or maybe they won't, and maybe there'll come a time where one game comes out and makes them change their attitude quick. Who knows?
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@Tempest753 said:
I agree, and it's sad because I'm not really sure what excuse BHVR has at this point. They have the money to hire devs to fix this stuff, god knows they should be making plenty of money considering the aggressive pricing of DLCs, cosmetics, etc.
And yet:
-Spirit, Hag, Twins, and Slinger haven't received any changes despite almost every survivor hating them.
-Keys are still grossly overpowered.
-9/10 perks in this game are garbage filler, and the perk grind is outrageous thanks to perk tiers.
-Every patch results in a plethora of game-breaking bugs.
-Devs don't listen to community feedback regarding map designs, such as everyone hating breakable walls and indoor maps.
-Generators get completed so fast that killers feel dependent on at least one of either Pop or Ruin to win, both of which are gated behind DLC.
-Camping and tunneling have never been addressed except with perks.
-Generators are still stupid boring to work on for survivors.
This game is hard-carried by it's excellent core concept. BHVR seems to have no sense of priorities, and from an outside perspective the gameplay/balance devs just frankly seem either lazy, incompetent, and/or are criminally understaffed. BHVR claims 300 people work on this game, so when can we get some support for the issues people have been complaining about for literally years?
BHVR has no excuse to hide from; and the game's core concept can only carry it so much until people abandon this game for the eventual alternative that will rear its head. It doesn't take someone hundreds or even thousands of hours to figure out that this game needs to be fixed and the developers need to communicate with their playerbase much better.
Anything, even an actual new forum to speak directly to the devs, or even just the devs acknowledging that they need to step up more for and actually showing that they're going to acknowledge the community, will just go a long way.
Because it's going to come to a point where everyone will burn out because of this game's poor optimization, bugs and balance, and licensed chapters won't be able to save the game.
I would take the next chapter/killer being delayed for a whole 6 months to a year if it means that issues with the maps, the characters, the balance, the hit detection, the keys, everything were fixed and investigated. I want the game to be in a better state BEFORE I want to see the next chapter.
And if the devs continue on this current path they're doing, they're just going to hurt the game even more. I don't want them to hurt the game more, either. I just want the game to be stable, fun and balanced, not pretty.
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@Rizzo said:
The changes to Franklin's have been made because of the Vaccine with Nemesis, since a single use of Franklin's could destroy the Vaccine.
So what if it does? That doesn't mean that you should nerf an entire thing just for it!
The better solution would've been for the devs to hard code Vaccines to not be destroyed by Franklin's Demise rather than to just nerf the ability so hard that Keys are just impossible to beat now.
But if the devs don't want to code it so Vaccines aren't destroyed, then the better solution is to nerf Keys so that if it's hit by Franklin's Demise and all charges are lost, it should become a Broken Key.
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@Northener1907 said:
Clown. I hate him mori. Fat old man with finger licking fantasy.
And also GF is licensed killer btw. I know he is not from Scream series. But it does not matter. Because killer is not important, Mask is important. Killers changing but all of them using this Mask. So Danny Johnson is one of the Ghostface killers, does not matter he was in Scream or not :)
Only the mask was licensed, not the character.
The character matters, not the object they have. If the character is an original character, but they're given some copyrighted object, that doesn't detract from the character being ORIGINAL.