Visionmaker
Visionmaker
About
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- Visionmaker
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Survivors have the 3rd person perspective. If they know you're there and see you with their camera, doesn't that mean you've failed and should be detected?
The point of getting the zero TR and no stain is to make sure they don't know where you are.
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I've got to admit, I like what they've done. It's hilariously insultig to hear the hook do a little celebration when I get caught.
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Ghost
Wraith
Spirit
Nurse that looks like Ghost
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It's always like this on double BP events. Killers just get more BP, so more people play it.
Meanwhile survivor queues are almost instant.
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@Paladin_Goo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/533815#Comment_533815
The shack..is an infinite. It's the most notorious infinite in the game. The fact that you don't know that shows you're actually just a baby survivor. You really must be new, lol.
Your opinion is from now on invalid. Since you actually don't know what balance is.
You can't loop the shack infinitely. You need two vaults or a long enough loop that allows the window to unblock itself or consistently break chases. The shack does not have this. Bloodlust, entity blockers, and mind games easily stop the shack from infinite use.
This is why I was skeptible when people kept saying this change was to prevent infinites when the same people kept calling the Cow Tree an infinite.
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@AetherBytes said:
Whats my evidence? A pallet stun is 3 seconds. Breaking a pallet costs 5.6 seconds.DS, in it's current state, eats up nearly as much time as a perkless killer getting pallet stunned, then kicking the pallet. That's a lot of time, especially since in a fair few situations you're gonna be able to chain stuns, or slow down with more pallets or a window.
That goes back to my original point.
Yes, it can be a harsh punishment to eat DS, and that is reasonable, since eating DS is no longer countering it. So now it is significantly more profitable to counter it in the other ways, such as by slugging or simply not tunneling.
While I don't think it was necessary to nerf Enduring to begin with, I think there needs to be a more compelling reason to nerf DS across the board, given that there are still reasonably accessible ways to counter it.
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@AetherBytes said:
@Visionmaker this is a situation of DS getting buffed because of it's only good counter, endurance, then having that counter removed. Imagine it as if I buffed hag to teleport from anywhere cause survivors could always trigger the traps anywhere, then nerfed survivors so crouching still sets it off. One side has gotten boosted to balance, then the other side nerfed, so it's become broken again.
@AetherBytes Where is your evidence that it is broken?
I understand that DS has been indirectly buffed due to removing a soft counter. But I'd like to understand how it has impacted its prevalence and impact on the game because of that. After all, having one less counter does not necessarily "break" a perk, given that this perk has many other options of counterplay.
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@Caretaker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/533730#Comment_533730
Invuln frames after being unhooked. We'll Make It to heal. Don't unhook inside the TR. Borrowed Time if they're camping. Why is it more profitable to go after the weaker target that I can remove so I can put an ounce of pressure on the game? Are you serious? Did you really just ask why making a 4v1 a 3v1 is a good idea?
Let's take my last game. I spawn in, find someone, start chase. Mark, down, gen pops. Ok, that was pretty fast. Cut to end game, 3 slugs, one gets off with BT, runs to unhook, they get adren and run across the map and leave. How is that fun or skill based? Are you gonna tell me that that survivor deserved that win? Cuz a perk? They didn't play well, they just held m1 ran to safe pallets, and relied on their crutches. There was 0 looping. Not a single person actually tried.
They just ran to a pallet, sat at it, moved to the next one. Then when I caught them they dead harded into the pallet, and repeated it. Why is this fun for survivors? Do you think you're special? Why are perks made to stop behavior, easy, people cried.
They made mistakes, they bitched, they got perks to fix their boo boos. It's what BHVR does. Instead of addressing actual issues, or gamebreaking bugs, they shuffle out a garbage perk and say they fixed it with bandaid soaked in drool. Let's go through your list.
DS: I got unhooked, now I'm immune for 60s. Just slug them right? Well slugging got nerfed, and every survivor cries about slugging so.
BT: Cuz making stupid saves/saves end-game with gates open when of course the killer will camp needed to be made fool-proof. Just needed to buff it what 3 times after it was finally addressed? Oh no, a rank 17 camped me, better add a perk to fix that up. Who cares that people will use it to cheese end-game and extend chases that shouldn't be extended.
BBC: Is for points. That's it. Also you have how many counters to it? If a killer has BBC and doesn't see an aura, why leave? If you're in a locker, they don't know. So yea, they'll stick around.
MYC: encourages killers to give you a chance and get away from the hook cuz they have actual pressure when they do. It's one of the few decent perks we have that encourage healthy gameplay and has a good counter/benefit.
H:DH: Blows before they can usually power it up, and let's face it the devs don't really have many more ideas for perks. Also, rank 17 camping you isn't a cause for alarm for players that don't tunnel or camp.
PGTW: Is a bad perk even after the change. 25% is fine, but you have to find a gen with that much done, have hooked someone, not be in a chase, and hope they don't just hop right back onto it.
My last match was miserable. I didn't tunnel, I didn't camp, and you know what happened? I lost a gen immediately. Then another, then another, then all gens were done, 2 adren'd, and one adren'd off my hook. Wow, I really feel good about completely losing a match cuz I wanted to play fair and care about the other side. That teabags me at the gate, and talks ######### cuz they lived due to a perk. Not skill, a perk that's been an issue for years, but it's ok, cuz, "It's only if all 5 gens pop!!!!" Which let's face it happens pretty often unless survivors screw up.
No offense, but i wanna be rewarded for making a good play. Not lose cuz I didn't want to be an ######### and facecamp the special person teabagging at every pallet pretending it'll somehow win their parents affection if they do.
Also, I play both sides. I've advocated for trash perks to be buffed and I'm happy they address older perks. I know how that side plays. I know it's frustrating to die immediately, but I also get the killer probably isn't gonna wanna let me go after I looped him for 3 gens with minimal effort.
I don't think you understand who my questions were directed toward. I am not asking you why or how YOU would do something, I am asking why things stay the way they are and why we have to end up complaining about perks that are bandaids to bad design.
You should stop thinking about survivor vs killer and more about how the game manipulates the player.
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@Caretaker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/533690#Comment_533690
You probably think survivor is hard and Freddy is op too huh? Do you want video? I can get plenty. DS shouldn't exist. Why should you get rewarded for being found? Why is it ok to make stupid plays and get a free 5s stun? Survivor mains are special. Same people that said MoM was ok and this nerf wasn't needed.
We lose perks all the time, but we don't get to complain. One minor thing happens to survivors. All hell ######### breaks loose and the devs need to be dragged out back. Play both sides. Tell me how much you enjoy getting stunned cuz you happened to be snowballing or playing well. Game is a joke.
Your entire gameplay loop holds your hands the entire time, you got friends to help you, perks to fix any mistakes you make. Downvote me into oblivion cuz someone dares speak against the holy DS.
Why should survivors be most vulnerable right after being immobilized? Why should survivors cease to be able to play a match solely based on another player's actions? Why is it far more profitable for killers to tunnel and camp than to seek out a different player who hasn't made any contact yet?
Why is there the need for perks to modify player behavior (DS, BT, BBQC, MYC, H:DH, PGTW), when it could directly be dealt with through game design?
Ironically, you are the one that is obsessing over sides and asking all the wrong questions.
Instead of blaming the player, you could blame the game.
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@Caretaker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/533671#Comment_533671
Minor edge-case? Multiple survivors do this. They use DS as a get out of jail free card and make increasingly risky/stupid plays knowing fully well they basically have immunity for 60s. Also 5s stun is absurd, especially considering it was nerfed due to Enduring, but not changed back to 3-4s after Enduring's nerf.
Perfect. So now you know they have DS and you can slug them to prevent its activation. You described a situation where they give themselves up to you on a platter and get to be useless until picked up.
Again, it simply annoys you. Something annoying you is not a reason to nerf it.
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I don't think DS needs to be changed for a minor edge-case that boils down to little more than a minor annoyance. People are far exaggerating how often this happens and its impact. The argument is mindlessly parroted and the outrage is merely symbolic.
Furthermore, they are mis-characterizing successful plays. A successful play is downing multiple survivors, yes. But a successful play is also intentionally countering a perk. DS is counterable, in multiple, explicitly known ways. Downing other survivors in rapid succession is not one of its counters. If you are hit by DS, it means you did not counter it, and thus should not be rewarded with its deactivation.
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Hook them as far away from the gate as possible, and slug them for a minute if they are unhooked.
Agitation, Iron Grasp, and even Mad Gritt will help you in these cases.
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Yes, a 5s stun can completely break your momentum. So don't tunnel if you can't afford it, and it won't activate.
Balance changes don't need to follow a tit-for-tat pattern. If you have no further reasoning aside from "if u nerf killer then u ned nerf survivor", then this conversation has ended.
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Unnecessary. It's not overpowered and it's fully counterable.
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That was the point.
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3 kills.
I get that you’d be frustrated, but from your screenshot, OoO didn’t stop you from destroying them.
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EGC is enough.
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If a killer slugs me after I get farmed off the hook, I take it as an act of courtesy or kindness.
I don't do that when I play killer though. Mercy isn't my thing, unless they offer their two hooks to me at the very beginning.
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Survivor gameplay has been virtually the same for three years.
Anything will be better. A secondary objective. A new way of escape. A new chase feature. Little ornaments on gens. Hats for hooks. Little party streamers when you put the offering down.
ANYTHING is a welcome change.
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I didn't see this coming.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/530771#Comment_530771
Oh sorry, i wasnt meaning to sound like that. Please forgive my tone(?), i just find it interesting some people downvote a reply not linked to them
Oh I said that jokingly.
And actually, reading the thread more carefully, it was just instigating. People know that his comment is off-base and they began stroking their own egos (i.e. "I told you we should remove the hatch!" "Tsulan you're so right!" "Thanks I know I'm right, look at these h8rs"), which is enough of a reason for downvoting.
And as you can see, the voting has started. Shame no one bothered to upvote my paragraphs of argument.
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I liked the footsteps as survivor and killer.
It's really damn weird not hearing my own footsteps, and I could hear the killers DOOMP DOOMP DOOMPS from a mile away too.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/530763#Comment_530763
When he's replying to someone saying thank you. Is that really in any way needed to downvote a thank you Because its barely related to him talking about the hatch?
You ask me like I'm the one doing it!
But it sounded like attention seeking to me. People like downvoting people that whine about downvotes.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/530268#Comment_530268
I think all those downvotes are just people who dislike you. I see them on a looot of your posts for no evidence why
Or maybe because it's a waste of time when it boils down to "but survivors don't deserve this! Why don't killers get a hatch too?!"
It is childish.
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@Tsulan said:
@all the people that downvoted my hatch removal proposal. Is there a similar mechanic for killers that I didn't knew? One that rewards utterly bad killers with 7000bp?
But survivors deserve that escape, right? Like when one of the last 2 survivors doesn't do anything but search for the hatch and then camp it.
It's not about deserving. It's never about deserving. You keep making arguments steered toward philosophical entitlement and it's such an unhealthy and irrelevant way of viewing the game, its functions, and players.
It's about balancing an asymmetrical game. Chances of survivor drops as the game progresses and survivors are eliminated. One less player reduces chances of survival exponentially and you can see this in the old 3-player games or matches with DCs in them. At one to two survivors left, the chances are so low, hatch is needed to provide a reason to keep playing.
If you look at games in the same genre or style, none flat out eliminate survivors and prevent them from playing completely. Other games circumvent this by allowing survivors to participate while dead, giving survivors revival options, or allowing them to have a massive team. We have the hatch.
If you take away the hatch, every game that doesn't power through 5 gens will literally be reduced to the last two survivors teabagging a hook waiting to die.
With regards to BP, survivor BP gains are already lower than killers and killers benefit off of far more consistent and straight forward BP options. The hatch is insignificant.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Being slugged for the 4k sucks, but the game has made it necessary at times. Pipping is more difficult without 4 kills. Some achievements require getting 4 kills.
I understand the desire to make sure at least one of your teammates escapes, and I understand not wanting to be on the ground for 4 minutes, but DCing is a way of giving your side an advantage by circumventing the game's mechanics. Just because it's benefiting someone else rather than yourself doesn't mean it's okay.
(I'm not talking about suiciding on the hook, which is a legitimate tactic. I'm specifically talking about disconnecting.)
That's the dev's problem.
There are Killers that find the 2 minute end-game timer intolerable as it is. Why should survivors be expected to sit around incapable of doing anything for twice that amount, for someone else's enjoyment?
It's not scary. It's not entertaining. It's not interactive. It's literally a huge waste of time that's unfairly and randomly put upon someone. And boo hoo to your achievement or pips. Endgame is way more balanced now. Go find the damn hatch and kill the last survivor the same way everyone else does.
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I've D/C'd for strangers while slugged before.
Sorry but there needs to be an optional "leave your corpse bleeding on the floor" option because crawling around for 5 minutes while two other people get to play the game is not at an enjoyable experience worth sticking around for.
Sure, you want your 4k, and I want to die already and play a new match.
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@GrootDude said:
Depends on my mood
Same.
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@Kiskashi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/530710#Comment_530710
I agree, the issue is partly that we don't actually 100% know who is in a SWF so most assume when people get a sweaty match it's (4 man) SWF but that data showed it's not that common but all "data" things are kind of "with a grain of salt" (or a ton if it's dbd). That's why indicators were mentioned above, people just want to know once and for all so we can put away this SWF is the source of all misery perception, be it true or false.
The 5% prevalence is convincing to me. Many people complain as if it were practically every game. Even at high ranks, I doubt it reaches a problematic number.
It's unfortunate that many killers will just abuse that by dodging, and then SWF players will respond by lobby jumping to mask themselves.
I have proposed a compromise to show SWF, punish dodging and DCing, and provide a BP bonus to killers facing SWF, but who knows what BHVR has planned.
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@Kiskashi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/530685#Comment_530685
But toxicity isn't a SWF restricted thing. Solos can be toxic, killers can be toxic, I think it's the general match experience with them that makes it feel terrible, can't sneak up, your position constantly reported, gens done at the speed of sound while you're chasing one, light speed saves/heals and flashlight saves, can't have hidden traps, can't have hidden totems. As soon as one sees it it's gg. That's why most suggest these changes, toxicity can be linked (and make it worse) but it is a whole other topic in itself.
I just suggested black pipping because some people do like maintaining their rank and depipping just because they got a SWAT squad probably isn't great considering it's an increased difficulty match. I did mention a few points of compensation, that was just a suggestion.
I personally believe that's more of a perception issue. Given that we see that, on average, 4-man SWF only increases survival by 10% (arguably 20% more than solo average) and are only in 5% of games, the actual impact of these perceived benefits are much smaller than on paper.
Maybe in the tippy top ranks, SWF wreck havoc and/or allow for boosted lower ranks. However, we see complaints about 4-man SWF across the board, so it leads me to believe that much of what is believed is just self-perception. Plus, we don't know who is in a SWF in-game. I've loaded in and matched outfits with random strangers myself for the funsies.
You are right that there are multiple layers to this issue, but I think balance changes will only do so much. I strongly believe that the feeling and self-perception of being bullied that is driving much of the anger.
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@Kiskashi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/530246#Comment_530246
Player 2: "Uh...I think it's a Billy. Yeah, it is."
This is literally my friend (followed by/while getting chainsawed) I play duo SWF with, also them saying "what you gonna do?" repeatedly to the killer while running around an object/tree followed by getting promptly downed, just the other day they were playing as Jane (they're a Jane main, a rare species) and they asked why the trapper went for them when we were both at a ruin gen and I said he wants that booty he's down with the thickness, and as soon as they started singing down with the thickness they stepped in a trap. We were losing it. 😂
I'm loving how full of accuracy these SWF experience posts are, it's literally like they end up sabotaging you more than anything, I feel the "buddy runs past you while you're healing with the killer on them" ones on a spiritual level.
I get that some SWF squads can really abuse the game (it's dbd, what doesn't get abused really...) but most just use it to have fun with friends, I don't think removing it entirely is the way to go, more so compensation and notification as se05239 mentioned:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/529244#Comment_529244
Alleviating the stress/punishment of the co-ordinated SWF experience is the better way to go, bp bonuses, maybe shards /letting killers keep some addons/black pipping at least if it's a 3 man/full 4 man etc.
Pips don't make most people happy or unhappy. It's toxicity.
While it's questionable whether teabagging should be dealt with... the first step is taking a zero/low tolerance policy on chat toxicity or abusive language... AND making people feel that reports do something (like Overwatch does.)
Having SWF give an advantage to people is just an icing on the cake IMO. I don't think people would be as opposed to it if it weren't for the fact that being unsportsmanlike is so common.
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What killers think me and my friends are:
What we actually are:
"So how was work?"
"Uhhh, it was okay. Slow day. I hope there's no Ruin."
"If I spawn next to you I'm dropping the pallet, hahaha."
"I dare you #########. Oh there's Ruin."
"AAAAH I RAN INTO THE KILLER, IT'S PEPPA"
"LOL! Don't die so fast this time"
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH ######### eat that wood!!! WOW she hit me through it!!!"
"Haha I'm gonna watch you getting #########."
"I got you a present. I'm bringing her to you!"
"######### you, I need my daily."
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My God, someone seriously convinced you that OoO is the "second most powerful perk for experienced players"?
Seriously, no one even complained about OoO hurting stealth killers before Ghostface dropped. I bet you couldn't even find ONE thread that complained about a stealth killer player having a balance complaint about OoO before GF's drop.
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BHVR practically butchers killers over 10% MS. There is not a chance in hell they will allow a perk that does this for free.
I think you are severely underestimating the importance of MS in this game.
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I'd throw Spirit into S for sure. She has boundless potential, just like Nurse.
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I feel personally attacked.
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@NMCKE said:
Give survivors more LoS blockers and hiding options, then we can decrease the pallets. Survivors are pretty vulnerable when they run out of resources tbh! :)
Anything to vary the gameplay. 360s are really annoying to do on low sens and quite frankly I don't want to have to resort to using Ninja Claudette.
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@Raccoon said:
How would you address a survivor camping the hatch (you know where they are) and waiting for you to die?
@Raccoon If you're asking me personally, I don't see the point wasting my time by griefing or being petty. I usually just do a gen, maybe sneak around, and play the game normally and get some points before the game ends.
I treat it the same way as if I get left to second stage or die on the hook. Sure, I can do the same back to you, but it's not like I can force you to be a good teammate.
If you mean if I were the devs, then I think there should be an emblem penalty instated somehow. A hatch camping survivor is not doing the objectives or being bold.
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@n2njauwu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528732#Comment_528732
there is way more survivors than killers and leatherface is weak , so either haloween for ds or hag for ruin since every killer atleast want have it avaible and ds was nerfed not that long ago >?
Just want to point out that BBQC is the second most used Killer perk in the game.
Although Ruin is #1, it has been in the Shrine multiple more times than BBQC ever has, and I think this info was captured before BBQC was put in.
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Run up to the killer and teabag them.
You'll get to use it pronto.
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@DarkGGhost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528690#Comment_528690
If the obsession die you lose it
Oh. I guess that does make it weaker. I think they should change that to something more controllable.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528749#Comment_528749
You're really stretching the variables for your own sake now. Stop quoting/tagging me. You're making yourself look stupider ever post that uses misinformation.
Bye. I'm off to actually play the game. Maybe get down to 2 and see who gets the other caught first. Good thing I WONT GET BANNED FOR IT.
<3
Quoting misinformation does make me look stupid, doesn't it?
"Good thing I WONT GET BANNED FOR IT."
Yikes.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528746#Comment_528746
Man it's as if you didnt read or comprehend what I wrote?
I said. If people are throwing pallets AND MAKING NOISE immediately w 4 people its throwing the game.
If it's down to 2 and a hatch, it's you or them. If they point you out and the killer kills you man that sucks but guess what? The killer has the option to kill the person MAKING ALL THE NOTIFICATIONS.
Learn comprehension and context. Try again.
Oooh, so if I throw pallets down, grief, and make noise when there's three people, it's okay! And as long as it's not "immediately", it's okay according to you!
And it's totally acceptable to sandbag, drop pallets, grief, and follow you around if it's just me and you! Second survivor dead? Time to fire up my Bond and grease up my space bar!
Boy, thanks for clearing that up! Glad to have you here. I hope to find you in one of my games as well, since you've made the distinction for me. Because it's completely not bannable and you'd certainly defend my actions.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528730#Comment_528730
You said making noise. As in indicators. Try again.
Vaults and lockers make indicators, genius. Pallets are expendable resources. Lockers and vaults are not. They are also infinitely vaultable outside of a chase.
Man, do you the play the same game?
You want to add making sound to the list too? Honestly, it's surprising that you sound so sure of yourself, yet still avoid yes or no questions.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528670#Comment_528670
No, I'd say it's a gambit. And it worked if the killer decides not to kill you.
If you start the game making noise and throwing pallets, its throwing the game. But the situation is 2 people alive. The killer could have secured a kill, but opted to take a chance and follow the person. Just as the 3rd took a chance of being hooked immediately.
It paid off.
And yes. It sucks, but if that's what happens AND the killer goes for it. Bully for them. Killer now knows where number 4 is making a hatch close even easier.
So when a killer opts to kill nobody, hit nobody, and farm, thus "preventing intentional gameplay," and removing survivors chance at max points , should they be banned as well?
I didn't say anything about throwing pallets, and AetherBytes' comment was about leading the killer to the other survivor in a hatch situation.
You're giving me a whole lot of "ifs" in defense of what looks like griefing and working with the killer, so I want to make it clear. So let me get this straight:
So the difference between bannable and nonbannable behavior is when you do it? Is it how many people are alive? Is it determined by the killer's actions? Whether or not it worked? Or is it as you had initially stated: whether you message the killer? Which is it? How much would it take to make the act of following you around and leading the killer, in order to intentionally sabotage, you perfectly normal and defensible gameplay?
And would you defend another survivor's actions of following you around and attempting to intentionally lead the killer to you as not bannable and "saving themselves"?
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BBQC? :)
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@brokedownpalace said:
I don't think this perk will become common or anything but the devs really do need to stop replying on aura reading. We have too many damn aura reading perks and add ons. It is not fun gameplay nor is it clever design. It's lazy.
Skill-free aura reading in a glorified hide and seek game is sooooo much fun.
I love it when the devs make the actual horror aspect less and less effective. Trying to sneak and evade a killer? Planning a getaway with clever use of lockers? Quick and quiet? No way, Jose!
The game is so much scarier when you just slap on 4 second chance perks and run around in circles instead!
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@DarkGGhost said:
The only way this will work if the obsession perks for the killer have no downside as well but the devs will never do something like that just look the new perk the Ghostface bring in the game.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527529#Comment_527529
What's the downside for Ghostface's obsession perk? How is it harming him in any way?
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Queue times can be pretty bad for killers.
I'd say queue times are the worst for 3-man SWF.
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@Arroz said:
Well, windows in overall are broken,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo2Q76Qpj8c
not only for survivors..
That's disgusting.
Why does it never work in my favor like this as the killer? :(