Thusly_Boned
Thusly_Boned
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@Raptorrotas said:
Imagine if killer players were allowed to hide behind their "bad" players; like survivors do behind "solo" they already falsely associate with "bad".
To be fair, matchmaking is horrible (increasingly so since 6.1.0, imo), and if you're a good player matched against a good killer but you draw a potato teammate (or two or three), you really are kind of screwed.
The problem often is that people aren't are that willing (or able) to recognize when it is they who are the potato. Dunning-Kruger effect and all that. A lot of Spider-Man meme style finger pointing.
But yeah, surv main copium comes in layers like an onion, from the often legit (terrible matchmaking) to pathetic straw grasping ("surv requires Omega skill and killer is OP, therefore you suck and I am better than you even though I am dead").
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@proxy_taxfraud said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305284#Comment_3305284
And in all the cases you get bad teammates, just take the L and move on.
That's literally what every M1 killer in high mmr does when he gets map offered.
Yeah, pretty much. For like half the killer roster having a map offering (at least the ones that are typically used) is pretty much an auto loss.
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Sure there is a chance, you just have to draw three good teammates.
Admittedly, you're lucky if that happens once or twice a week.
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@TheSubstitute said:
Honestly, I think that if there are two survivors left then AFK crows should start to accrue if a gen isn't touched within a reasonable time frame to eliminate survivors holding the game hostage. If there's more than 1 gen left and only two survivors you've already lost more than 95% of the time. There is no winning. Get what BP you can from gens and move on.
As a side note, why is it there are some people who will DC or give up on hook because 'there's no point' when the match is too early to tell and then will stall out the game as much as possible and hide to get the other survivor killed so as to get hatch when there is actually no chance of winning? Selfishness on both counts?
It's power thing. Killers often power trip (even giving hatch is a power trip), but suvs have their own ways of making themselves feel like they're in control. DC'ing/suiciding on hook are examples (it's like saying "I'm choosing to leave, you're not removing me" - especially notable when you're about to be hooked for the third time, which generally makes zero sense), and so is hiding.
DbD was not designed to be a hide and seek simulator, and simple hiding from the killer is one of the easiest things to do in the entire game. But it is also a means of wielding a form of power over the killer.
So those two things seemingly oppositional things serves the same purpose in that regard.
And yes, both are pathetic and childish. Saying "there's no point" is just a flimsy rationalization.
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I am not an "Eruption Apologist" by any means (it's miserable to face in solo queue, and needs heavy tweaking for sure), but to even insinuate that that it's the most busted perk ever is a case study in recency bias. It's laughable.
I won't name others because they have already been named multiple times in this thread, but Eruption wouldn't crack my top 10 (maybe even top 15) most infuriatingly busted perks ever. DBD's history is loaded with perks that were disgustingly broken for periods of time (sometimes years). Eruption is just the latest flavor of the month.
As for the 3 gen angle to the argument, as has been said 90%+ of the time a lockdown three gen is a bed the survs had made for themselves; Eruption just pulls the blankets a little tighter when the killer makes them lie in it. You're not entitled to a mulligan on your poor play.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301148#Comment_3301148
Winning isn’t important…..to you. I was with you until you decided to make judgements about people who don’t share your mentality.
Am I making judgements about people who prioritize winning above all else in a game with no clear win conditions, trash matchmaking, wildly inconsistent game parameters and a grip of other potentially determinant variables that matter more than "skill"?
Yeah, I suppose I might be. I am only human, I guess.
I respect people's right to play that way, and won't berate them for it, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend I don't find it absurd.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301542#Comment_3301542
Yeah the MMR system isn't that good or reliable.
So I'm afraid I just don't believe you.
Yeah, this person is either lying or mainlining the same "TOP MMR" smack that Tru3 is.
I have ~3K hours in DBD (which isn't all that much, really) and I don't face "professional" teams all the time. Or even at all probably ("professionals" probably don't spend much time on public matches). If you watch even the best streamers, you can tell they don't, either. MMR is far, far, too imprecise for that. And if it was, your "top MMR" queues would be astronomically long.
Maybe a third (and I'm being generous here) of my matches are against teams that are good enough that I feel tunneling would be necessary to win.
Embracing the flawed line of thought that every match is against atomic supermen and tunneling is the only way to survive is just a way for people to justify refusing to vary their playstyle and/or consider others for even a second.
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If you're determined to tunnel, that's your prerogative. It's not against the rules, so no one can stop you.
But the sentiment that you have to tunnel to win is waaaay overstated, and based on the misapprehension that many people have that they are always facing SWFs or comp teams. The reality is that regardless of how high your MMR is (and it isn't as high as you think; it never is), most of the teams you face aren't going to be all that great. Your opposition isn't as consistently good as you (or anyone) think it is.
So the out of the gate tunneling just isn't necessary like 90% of the time. It's just overkill, and inconsiderate of other players.
If I knew out of the gate I was facing a high tier SWF (and in a spicy mood, or had money on the line), then I might consider tunneling the first surv I see. But I don't know, and don't do that. If I am getting my ass handed to me midmatch, then yeah, I might remove someone. But I don't care that much, especially in an imbalanced mess like DBD, which is about as far from being geared toward direct comp as a multiplayer game could be.
Give the match some time so you can gauge how good the survs actually are before you go full sweatlord.
If you're invested in that 4K, so terrified at the prospect of losing that you are going to come out of the chute in every match laser focused on the most efficient route to winning, then my advice would be to chill the hell out.
The same applies to survs, who can be just as bound up about that escape as any killer is about their 4K. Winning in DBD really isn't all that important.
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Killer seems fine to me right now, as good as it has in a long time. From last fall until 6.1.0 dropped, it was really, really rough, so I think it feels especially good now having so recently dealt with that nonsense.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
The matchmaking system is fueled by pure spite and black licorice.
Aren't those two the same thing?
But seriously, it only seems like the MMR is out to get you in situations as mentioned above. Huntress is one of the most played killers, so odds are good you'd draw her when doing a pallet challenge.
That said, it does often feel like every time I choose a stun challenge I immediately start drawing Huntress, Nemesis, Trickster, etc. But it's mostly perception.
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Haddie (I just wish her in game model looked more like her profile pic), Jane, and Yui.
I like Ash a ton (huge Evil Dead fan), but he's big and loud, so I rarely use him.
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Not even to mention that exposing GF is maddeningly inconsistent. If I knew I couldn't expose him, I might not waste my time trying in futility (and disbelief) to expose him while staring straight at him.
I might add that the mark would have to remain in LOS to prevent the stalk degradation, which would need to be pretty rapid.
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@Blueberry said:
Neither is holding the game hostage. That would imply that one of them is preventing the other from progressing the game, of which that applies to neither person. The killer could just open it and end this and the survivor could just exit the locker and end this. Either of them could end the match right now if they wanted to, they aren’t stuck.
Yeah, there is no "hostage holding" going on here. Some people refuse to accept that jumping into the jaws of death is still progression.
As for who is being a bigger jerk, it's a tough call. If the surv is the last alive, I'd say it's 50/50 at best, probably more on the surv, since they're dead either way, and the killer (ostensibly) is at least doing it for a reason (Evil Incarnate). At that point, the only reason the surv has to stay in that locker is spite.
If there are other survs alive, then the killer is clearly more in the wrong.
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Yeah, it's definitely not a well structured answer scale. I feel like most of my answers would have been in the ~5% range, which isn't never, but it sure isn't 25%, which would be pretty common.
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@ShroudedGhostFace said:
I recently watched a video by SpookyLoopz about how he would change every killer.
He said Ghostface is in a good spot after his rework but he suggested that GF could be changed to be the first killer to not have a terror radius or red stain but at the expense of stalk % decaying on non-marked survivors.
I actually think this would be a great change. I don’t get to stalk survivors to 99% but I don’t have to constantly broken out of stealth either. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.
He talks about it at 14:27 for those who want to watch the clip.
My initial reaction to that was like "no way", but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made.
It seems OP, but perhaps not more than being able to 99% mark survs, leave them, and then essentially instadown them without warning at any point later. It just doesn't make much sense the way it works now.
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299667#Comment_3299667
Cause most of my experiences with TTVs have been bad; or it is just them talking smack in the VOD. Lots of cheating accusations as well because mr strimmer can't handle the fact they got beat and need an excuse for the viewers.
Plus they are trying to get fame and money by beating me in a video game, why would I make it easy?
Most streamers make money by being entertaining, many aren't necessarily good at the game. I wouldn't take it as such a personally adversarial thing.
And why even go back and watched vods? In thousands of hours of DBD I have faced gd knows how many TTVs and never once gone back and watched the VOD (I tried once after a particularly funny end to a match, but they hadn't been streaming).
Don't watch VODs, disable post game chat, profit. Or at least have a better time.
Personally, when I am watching a surv stream and see the killer tunnel the streamer, I assume it's because they are a streamer, and tbh, that seem kinda sad and insecure. It seems either attention seeking or like someone desperate not to be beaten in front of an audience.
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I don't do anything unless they're stacked. If there are 3-4 of them I usually dodge, because they probably have some shenanigans planned.
Other than that, it's just business as usual.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299227#Comment_3299227
The same reason I don't watch NASCAR.
"Oh look, Bill is approaching that tile that is between two bales of hay with a pallet in the middle. WHATEVER WILL HE DO? Oh, look. He ran through the pallet, now he is going in a circle. He has enough distance, he is gonna do it again. And a third time. Gee, I wonder if he drops the pallet now. Oh, look he did. What a shocking development this is. I kick the pallet. Now he is heading over towards that tile over there with a pallet between two chunks of garbage, I wonder what riveting gameplay will happen THIS time?"
Absolutely slog. Boring as hell.
Yeah, pretty much this. You play the game enough, it's all painfully predictable.
The only time something catches me off guard is when it's a bad player making a non-sensical play. Funnily enough, the better players get, the more predictable they become, and the game turns into a series of coin flips. But because of how the game is designed, doing the obvious thing is often the most effective. It's formulaic, and actually a very poor expression of skill (unless you consider learning patterns a skill).
The times I feel the most like walking away from DbD are when I am looping a tile, and it just feel like every other chase, like a skipping record. It's like repeatedly working a basic equation where there are multiple variables but their values are always the same. It's exceedingly rare something unexpected happens.
Personally, I like hit and run, jumpscare gameplay. It's certainly not the most effective, but to me it's miles more fun that doing the same dance around a loop over and over again.
As for the topic itself, killers being salty about being looped for five minutes simply aren't good killers. Why do I say this?
- If you're that easily tilted, you probably won't play this game for long
- Good killers don't get looped for five minutes. Not because they absolutely would have caught you in that time, but because they would have dropped chase waaaaay before that. Good killers won't waste their time on a long chase.
Smacking on hook or otherwise being a salty goober because they got looped for a long is 100% a potato move; someone who brought a schoolyard 1v1 mentality to a 4v1 asym.
And yeah, getting salty about having been spanked is a both sides phenomena. Gotta point that finger somewhere rather than accept not being the better player.
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There are two ways to know if tunneling is actually occurring:
- You're the killer and you're intentionally tunneling
- You are being tunneled/camped so hard you've never lost line of sight with the killer, and can see they haven't gone after anyone else.
Outside of that, it's down to perception, which is usually flawed, biased, and/or incomplete.
I would say the overwhelming majority of tunneling claims are BS, and with so much of that noise out there, it'd be easy to justify doing it because you'll be accused of it regardless.
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@RavenousSix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299487#Comment_3299487
A killer queues in solo. There is no killer swf.
Besides having to deal with swf as a killer now we also need to deal with solo queuers having swf like features.
Good luck with queue times when people don't play killer as much.
Killer got a much needed bump in the 6.1.0 update, and since then solo has been more difficult. I don't feel that is really a debatable point.
The real problem is the huge imbalance between SWF and solo queue, and this addresses that to some extent (nothing will ever full approximate voice comms).
I feel like this will bring the game as close to overall balance as it ever has been.
The solo surv side of me is glad to see this, and the killer side of me will be glad that the "solo queue is worse than being waterboarded" hyperbole crowd will have less of a leg to stand on. Yeah, it'll make things a tad more challenging for killer, but let's be honest, the people who will benefit the most from this are the ones who were getting steamrolled before.
For most players (casuals), this will be amazing. For really good players this will only move the needle a bit. For really good teams, it won't move the needle much at all.
Not sure what the full array of icons are going to be (forgive me if I missed it somewhere), but I wonder if there is going to be a "going for the save" indicator, because I feel like that would be the most impactful one. Not sure how that would trigger, though.
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@BenOfMilam said:
Imagine if you checkmate someone in 12 turns in chess, and they call you a sweaty tryhard loser.
I feel about the same when I see three injured survivors cluster around the hook and all go down within seconds of each other and they say the killer is sweaty. The truth is, those players made an embarrassingly bad mistake and lost the game for it.
I agree with your general point, but the obvious thing to point out here is that DBD is not chess. Chess is a game with clear parameters and rules, the pieces all operate the same ways as their counterparts, the board is always identical in each match, skill and knowledge are expressed clearly, and the win condition is the same for all players.
DBD is about as far from this as you can get; there are no clear win conditions, not everyone plays in pursuit of the same goal. Skill is ill defined and poorly expressed, not all killers operate under the same constraints, and the board is different in almost every match, and you almost never know what configuration it will take beforehand.
There is no real balance, no symmetry, no consistency in variables.
All that said, if you're going to play DBD, you have to be prepared to accept all of the possibilities, including that your opponents will be heavily invested in their win condition and might use any allowed tactic to meet it. Some people feel like DBD is a way to express their competitive skill, and though you might find that silly (justifiably), you have to accept it.
Just as someone who wants to play a "serious" or "competitive" match has to accept when their opponent wants to goof off, which might be equally frustrating to them as being a "tryhard" is to their counterpart.
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Like a month or so ago.
Frankly I'd like to see the rifts extended further (to like tier 100), but maybe with BP or shard rewards toward the end. I still don't like the earning rift fragments and having them just disappear because you already completed the rift.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297047#Comment_3297047
Shrug. And I wish people stopped wanting every killer perk to be post-nerf Thana tier.
So, if we're done with massively uncharitable exaggerations, there is a gigantic gulf between Nurse tier and the clunky, punishing mess that Billy is right now. Which is what the OP is talking about.
This. Billy's power isn't what's lacking; a really skilled Billy player (and I run into them on rare occasion) will still feed you your lunch.
The problem is that he is inaccessible to most players. By that I mean he is mechanically very challenging to use (probably the hardest to use in the game), and on top of that has been handcuffed by mechanical and environmental limitations.
He's just miserable to play unless you already have a ton of play time with him. And even for those, it has become a chore to squeeze the value out of him.
I am not experienced enough with him to give the best suggestions for improvements, but I do know what when I did try to play with him it was unwieldy, tedious, and just plain unfun.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297231#Comment_3297231
I never really understand why people dc against Legion. I think people vastly over exaggerate how much they're mending (i mend in a legion match maybe 5 times tops?) and are playing wrong against them (trying to heal).
Legion is tedious to face, but I never even feel the urge to DC, because I also feel like I'm almost certainly going to escape in the end. Legion sucks.
@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297223#Comment_3297223
I started playing in early 2020 (I think - Pyramid Head was coming out) and survivors were absolutely, brokenly overpowered far beyond anything right now. I mean, off the top of my head:
- OoO gave any SWF permanent wallhacks.
- DS was basically an extra life.
- Any lobby with more than 1 key was an automatic 'nope'.
- Every map had 2 or 3 spots at least where a survivor couldn't be picked up (but could still be healed), and you'd have to either slug camp them or give up, because they'd do this deliberately, all the time.
- A few maps had spots where survivors could get and be unhittable.
- Pseudo-infinites, especially on Haddonfield and Badham houses.
It was awful to be a killer, which is why killer queues...honestly, until recently, were always instant.
Yeah, 'clicky clicky' was fun unless you had even mild photosensitivity issues and had to stop playing because of the migraine.
Slugging...whatever. It's being changed soon, and yes it's annoying. But at least you can just grab a coffee, it's not like 2020 where a survivor could essentially prolong the game forever because they'd found a spot where you couldn't hit them and two people climbed in and went AFK.
Yeah, I started playing in late 2019, and survs definitively had the upper hand, for all the reasons you stated and more.
Which is why as you say killer queue times were instant (and surv times were often brutally long). 6.1.0 really just moved things to a relatively balanced state and the queue times normalized quite a bit.
And even though things are more balanced now in terms of power, survivor is still the less stressful, more fun, chill role, which keeps the majority of players playing surv. That and the fact the a good chunk of the player base are just locked in to their preferred role and will never change.
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I could name a bunch of small irritants, but one thing towers above the rest: map imbalance.
Except when using a small handful of killers, whether or not you have a good chance of winning depends largely on what map you load into. With some killer/map combos, you're just screwed unless the survs are bad.
I would say DCing survs, but honestly that is more irritating to the remaining survs than the killer.
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I haven't had a 5+ minute queue in a long time (pre-6.1.0); 2 or 3 minutes is the high end these days. For either side.
I play in the Western US, crossplay on, somewhere mid evening to late night/early morning (7:00 PM - 3:00 AM MST), and queue times just aren't an issue for me at all. On average, less than a minute for either.
Compared to how they've been in the past they are a little longer on the killer side, much shorter on the surv side; on balance, they're the best they've ever been.
I think the game is fairly balanced* (though solo queue needs help), though perception of balance is never really there for people who only play one side or the other. I think killer is stronger than it had been for a long time prior to 6.1.0, but not OP by any means (outside of the usual suspects - Nurse/Blight), just that the game balance had been skewed pretty hard toward survivor for a long while, and the shift toward balance has been jarring for some.
*fairly balanced in the context of DbD's history; it's never going to be objectively balanced, nor do I think it can be. If balance is what people are looking for, they would do well to look elsewhere.
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I want to say just do whatever you want, but I am of two minds here:
- Just play on as normal. It sucks for the three remaining survs, and increases the chances that one or more of the others will also DC.
- Back off the gas, maybe even farm. You'll still come out all right on points, and it will take the edge off having the game ruined for the survs. Downside is that when this becomes the norm, it helps DC'ers justify DCing, since they feel like they're not totally screwing over their teammates. Actually makes the problem of DCing worse.
My empathy wants to go easy, but I feel like going hammer down and just ending the game asap might be the best play, except that so many will blame the killer and not the cause of the problem, the DCing surv, which is backwards.
We need to make disconnectors the villain as much as possible, imo.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293984#Comment_3293984
Pain Res still gets used every other games
Pop, is used less but still I see it every 3-4 games.
DMS is still in every 2-3 games.
So I don't know what you're talking about pretending these perks aren't still being used
I'll give you the others, but I can't even remember the last time I saw Pop.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293706#Comment_3293706
Killer has the biggest advantage over survivor for the first week when neither side really knows anything.
Several months later when you get to middle ranks the game is relatively even. The only problem is that most of the killers can be completely shut down by god pallets.
When you get to above average players - the survivors have a little advantage overall. The only saving grace for the killer is that you probably learned to play a more advanced killer. Nemesis is not the best killer by a long shot but he's way better than trapper. If you want to win consistently in what would be old "purple rank" play then you can't really keep playing the weak killers and still have fun matches where you feel you had a fair fight.
When you get to the comp scene you realize there are only a few viable options for killer. Survivors are completely amazing and make you look like a noob even playing the best killer with really strong addons. This happens because overall the survivor has more skill potential than almost all of the killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294010#Comment_3294010
"Survivor is not the easier role, not even close"
Most people would disagree with you. At any given point during the day how many "really good" killers are streaming? There's always about 5x survivor mains for every killer main.
Survivor starts as the harder role but becomes more powerful with a higher overall potential.
When you look at competitive DBD it is the survivors who are usually severely limited - not killers (who often only have a few restrictions).
Yeah, I agree that at base, entry potato-level, killer is easily stronger. But I think that power balance pretty quickly turns, well before you even get to the "average" tier of players. At the stage where all players are of average skill, I think the survivor side is easier, and this only increases as the skill of all players increases. At "top level" (in cases where all players are actually top level), surv is the power role, for sure.
A team of four legitimately good survs, even in solo, is quite strong, I would argue stronger than a similarly skilled killer. A team of four really good killer in SWF are bringing a gun to a knife fight.
And speaking for myself, I reached a place of competence on the survivor side far more easily than I did with killer (even accounting for the fact I started with killer and already had a fair base of game sense before I picked up survivor). And survivor is far, far and away the less stressful role. I don't feel that latter point is even remotely arguable.
And even though I think killer has the advantage at nascent levels, this isn't always the case. My wife (who is not much of a gamer), started playing as survivor and became passable pretty quickly, but struggled immediately (and mightily) as a killer, to the point where she gave it up.
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I feel like the killer meta has changed a fair bit actually. I mean we're still seeing SH:PR and CoB a lot, but I am seeing a lot more Eruption, and a ton more aura perks. The slight buff to Lethal Pursuer has also led to more of Darkness Revealed, Nerfed BBQ, Floods of Rage (and now Nowhere to Hide), etc.
I run Distortion constantly now (not a coincidence), and it is popping off more often than not (heck, against Huntresses, it's not uncommon to lose all three tokens in the first minute or two of a match) because we're seeing stacked aura perks like never before.
Sure, generally speaking it's still a slowdown meta, but until they balance maps (ha!) that is always going to be the case, since for most killers, not slowing the game down is essentially throwing. And the specific perks have changed a bit. It's boring for sure, but until broader issues are addressed, slowdown is gonna be a huge part of the game.
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I was seeing him constantly, but went a few days without seeing even one, before last night. Seems like with some killers I'm either getting them all the time, or not at all.
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Yeah, it's a joke.
I'm gonna grab the ones I want that I can buy with shards, but I'm not giving BHVR a red cent of actual money for any of the ones they are retroactively pulling into this sham.
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Really any mercy the killer shows after an early DC is a gift, since the game is effectively over at that point unless the killer is awful.
While I often let everyone go eventually in those situations, I might screw around for a bit and then kill one or two, because I want some points as well.
And while not remotely bannable, farming and then teasing you with the hatch is a high tier power trip dick move. If my intent is to kill you, I won't try to indicate otherwise. Really teasing a surv with the hatch in any circumstance is just a petty, tiny pp energy move.
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3290929#Comment_3290929
then why are these people still dcing constantly
Because babies are gonna baby
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289800#Comment_3289800
O yeah the tunneling everyone at the same time complaint! Just recently had someone that claimed I hard tunneled their mate - even though said mate was first to get hooked and died in EGC when everyone else was on death hook.
these kinda endgame chats even make a lost game feel better than a win.
Surv or killer, people often just angrily throw crap at the wall when they lose, pretty much.
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@Mooks said:
Are you strictly talking about 4 man swf groups? Otherwise I am pretty sure the percentage of swfs including 3- and 2man is higher than that.
doesn’t mean all of them are sweat squats and some might not even use any voice comms of course..
Yeah, iirc the percentage of teams that contain at least 2 people playing together is close to 50%. Four person SWF is like 5%.
That said, telling yourself only lose because you are going up against SWFs is common killer copium. Kind of like "OmFg tUnnELing and CaMpiNg" is common surv copium when they just got outplayed; sometimes true, usually not.
And a lot of SWFs suck. They'll be better than if playing alone, but two to four potatoes in a group are still gonna potate.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289103#Comment_3289103
its definitely not impossible to fail, I see fails all the time. See it fail regularly in solo q and as killer.
For sure. Like 8/10 save attempts I see fail, and I have not noticed much change recently. The buffer helps marginally, but you still have to get into position, which is where the failure occurs for most people.
And the killer counterplay hasn't changed much, if at all.
As for the bump in Franklin's usage, I feel like that started a while back, before the flashlight changes were even announced. I think it had a lot to do with more people talking about how OP medkits are.
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@jajay119 said:
Personally I'd prefer the incapacitating element to be removed all together. It's an absurd premise.
The premise is fine, implementation is the issue, and it is an issue. I would remove the incapacitation, bump the regression and block the gen for like 10 seconds. Or keep the regression as is and halve the incapacitation time. It's just too brutal on solo queue as is.
But "Killing" DBD? Lol, no. DBD had survived many far worse things.
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Halve the incapacitated status time, at least.
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I get to iri 1 in solo pretty much every month, but getting from mid-golds to iri 1 takes as long as everything before.
The disconnection issue is a huge part of why this is. Getting from ash-silver is strictly a matter of time, but I would say getting from mid-gold-iri 1 (especially iri 4 - iri 1) actually does require some skill, especially when a good portion of your games are essentially 3v1. You really have to buckle down and play opportunistically when you get near the end.
And since those 3v1 games are essentially lost in terms of advancing in grade, you have to have some time to burn to get to iri 1. Unless you have a lucky run, it's not going to be an efficient run.
At the very least I think it should be that no one can de-pip in a match with a DC, but you have to be careful not to give too much to people for a teammate DCing, because that could be abused.
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I enjoy her, in my heart she's still my favorite killer. But I have lateral hearing loss and can't track sound directionally, which means I always had to use anticipation/prediction to make any use of her power, and the directional phasing sound crippled my ability to do that.
So now I have to phasewalk backwards to get max effect, and that is...suboptimal.
If we ever get some accessibility options to mitigate that, I'll be back on board.
As for the average player with two working ears, I would guess the changes to her were just enough to make learning to track sound necessary, which was a bridge too far for casual Spirit mains.
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They should nerf the condemned strat/slug specifically, and buff her in other areas (like chase). I have a number of ideas how, but I'm not going to rehash them here.
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@scenekiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3288485#Comment_3288485
This overly-simplistic argument hardly indicates why she's stronger than people claim she is, as they definitely don't "only" do this. Obviously it exists, but I personally have never faced this Sadako for example, and I'm sure others haven't either.
I'm not pretending she's the best, or even top 3, but again - most people who play this game aren't in the "top 1% mmr" that apparently everyone on this forum is, which in turns make her stronger to most casuals who play.
I play as her a lot, and don't use the condemned style (I play her straight up hit and run/jumpscare) and I do pretty damned well...to a point.
She is an absolute noob slayer for sure, but to succeed with her against better players, you have to lean into the condemned style, which isn't much fun, really.
In spite of her kill rate, I think she needs a fair bit of help.
That said, I have 4-5 killers squarely below her on my tier list, maybe 6-7.
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Honestly, I don't even think it looks all that great overall. Some of the elements are really cool (like the portcullis exit gates and a couple of the structures like the gallows), but it's mostly a plain covered in smoldering piles of crap. And I hate hate hate the red saturated color palette.
And of course it plays like cheeks.
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For people still not understanding what others are finding objectionable here it's not even primarily that BHVR is stepping into limited availability, it's that:
- They're pulling cosmetics that have already been available year round into it. Doing it with new cosmetics is disappointing, but not really a huge deal in and of itself. Plucking existing stuff out of the store is more alarming, not just because you're losing access to stuff we took for granted, but it's setting precedent. What is is going to be next? When?
- The direct contradiction in messaging from "all non-licensed cosmetics will be available for shards eventually" to "well, except the seasonal/event items". This really feels like an intentional misdirection. Like they're fostering goodwill by making older items available for in game currency, but then diluting the value there by then excluding many of the items people are likely waiting to become available for shards. If this new tactic of roping established cosmetics into the limited availability pool expands to other seasonal groups (Halloween, Lunar New Year, etc.), the gesture of making these old items available for shards means almost nothing.
Of course not everyone who is alarmed/irritated by this was or is going to buy these cosmetics, but many were. I know I was excited about some of these older cosmetics that I have been on the fence about becoming available for shards, but more than that, it's a principle thing.
At best it's incompetence in messaging, at worst is bold faced predation on consumers. DBD is not free to play, and the existing cosmetics are already objectively overpriced. Considerably. That being the case, moving in this direction is kind of a middle finger to the consumer.
It's a massive injection of uncertainty, and barring some sort of clear messaging on the subject, we can only assume this practice is laying the groundwork to metastasize into the other seasonal realms. For many this will result in just pulling back from buying at all, for some it will make no difference, but for others it's going to make fomo panic buying the norm.
It's gross.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3283892#Comment_3283892
but he needs the skill to catch you.
You only need a few elements, be it Spine Chill as a detection perk, be it awareness and trying to hide more than looping a killer or playing risky.
The moment you got down, he did outplay you with skill... what comes after is called his reward that is you on the hook. He wouldn't get you without being near you... to down. Even if you go with a take of "A killer will down me at some point, that's the way" and my reply: No, that's not quite right. A killer can end up easily with not a single hook if survivors play well... even if soloq or you play selfish have the power to not even be seen.
It's the way you play, giving the killer a hook or not.
I have a hard time accepting camping Bubbas on any basis, but there is a lot of truth here.
The same applies to tunneling; that fist down doesn't have to be a given. I have watched (I am not spectacular myself) a killer try to catch a surv for ages. I'm sure we all have seen that play out. I have also seen bad killers go back to the well and try to tunnel out the same surv it took them five minutes to down, and throw the game.
Which always circles back to the unpleasant truth: bad killers don't 4K teams of better survivors very often at all. Most of the time, if your team all died, it was because the killer was better. If their tactics seemed low skill and you still all died, follow that to the logical conclusion, unpleasant though it may be.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3283886#Comment_3283886
This is a weird take.
Imagine in a game people complain because one side has an atomic bomb that the other side has to counter with only 4 sticks. The side with the atomic bomb always manages to either wipe the other team or at the very least kill one of the 4 in the enemy team each time they press the "Atomic bomb" button.
When the side with the atomic bomb inevitably wins, the other side will obviously will complain. Yet your take is "lmao don't fall for it, you're giving a terrible impression of yourself."
The counterplay to the atomic bomb is several degrees more difficult to pull off than pressing the button to release the bomb. The people trying to counter it aren't making themselves look ridiculous when only the most skilled players get to actually counter it.
Your take only works if the tactic is easy to counter, like getting poked with a needle and dying when your team all have guns. That's when the other side is looking ridiculous for complaining.
If survivors complain for dying to a trapper's trap, I'd understand your take, but things like getting slugged, tunneled out or face camped require ridiculous amounts of coordination and team play from one side, and just the choice to do it from the other. I don't think the recieving end looks that bad when they could easily be average survivors vs a low tier killer and still be unable to coordinate against it.
No offense, but this is survivor victim complex nonsense.
In my time playing, I've come to feel that there are only two scenarios where you are really borderline helpless as a surv/surv team:
- A hard, focused tunnel by a skilled killer.
- A serial facecamp by a Bubba.
Outside of those, there is always totally viable (though perhaps not fun) counterplay, though it's often not counterplay surv teams want to consider (leaving someone essentially to die on hook, or being willing to be that person, for example).
Saying the killer is wielding an nuclear bomb and all the survs have are twigs is god-tier hyperbole. As a killer go try to camp/proxy camp and play the trade attrition game against a really good team of survs. You'll get absolutely rinsed the majority of the time.
Again, these "type B" tactics almost always only work because of lack of game sense and/or being overly altruistic, and is exacerbated in solo by lack of info. But there is no David v. Goliath going on here. If you got wrecked by a camper, they were either Bubba, or you allowed yourself to get played.
But these tactics might feel like you are having a bomb dropped on you when you don't realize you can get out of the blast radius. Good survs don't consistently die to these tactics.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284876#Comment_3284876
What are you talking about other games do that with seasonal stuff all the time. It makes no sense selling a Winter Event cosmetic in the middle of summer...unless is a Christmas in July scenario.....
But calling BHVR Scummy or accusing them of lying when so many other companies do the exact same thing some DONT EVEN BRING THEM BACK. Mandy and the game post says they will be back next year.
Mandy gave the best information they she has a this current time.
I don't even care that much about the seasonal availability; it is, as you say, pretty standard. Whatever.
But two things bother me (based on my interpretation of what I have read):
- Pulling items that had been seasonal items but available year round for a long time into limited availability retroactively. Some are available with shards, but many aren't, and this is a move clearly designed to trigger even more impulse buying. Waiting a year is not a big deal to many, but for many others it is. It's very mask off opportunism. It's anti consumer, and it's gross.
- Announcing that all non-licensed cosmetics will be given a shard price, but then saying "well, except those, sorry!". The should have accounted for that in the initial announcement. It can't be that hard to plan out your messaging better than this.
These things really give them impression that there is a business model of "we'll do whatever makes us the most money, in the moment, regardless of whether or not it is consistent with established protocol". So it creates a general atmosphere of uncertainty, and will likely lead to even more impulse buying, because now we don't know what may be yanked from the store at any given time.
It's just disappointing.
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Stuff like this feels like BHVR is trying to sabo their own product like Elon is doing to Twitter.
They might want to go back to the drawing board on this one.
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@Omans said:
I think a lot of the people responding to you are completely missing the point (par for the course for a lot of posters on this forum).
There is no expression of skill in playing every match the same way - get the first down, tunnel/camp the first hook, suddenly start alternating hooks after the first survivor dies and you have an extreme advantage. Yet that happens so often.
I don't know why there is so much pushback to what you said. It is a simple fact. Players who play that way aren't as good as they think they are because it is a 'tactic' (according to some posters in this thread) that requires very little skill, yet is greatly rewarded.
Many players would rather killers who are the 'type a' be greatly buffed and 'type b' be greatly nerfed.
Never should I, as a 'type a' killer, have to think 'I should have stood next to the hook and secured the next hook state'. Yet more often than not that is the most optimal way to play.
Sad thing is the type B killers in this thread will see this post and think I am suggesting a nerf to killers. Nah, I'd like to see skilless 'strategies' nerfed and the actual mode of skill expression in this game (quickly winning chases) buffed.
Obviously there's little skill expression there, but I'd argue that there's equally little expression of skill on the side of the survs getting 4Kd. It's reciprocal.
- It's presumptuous to assume such killers universally "aren't as good as they think they are", and that thought comes from a knee jerk, insecurity driven response to being beaten. When I get a 4K because a surv team played in such a a way that it never made a lick of sense to leave the general hook vicinity, it don't puff my chest out and congratulate myself for being great, I take it as a gift given by poor survivors. If a team plays that way, they're going to keep playing that way more often than not, and they should be punished for it. If a team demonstrates they are going to immediately send 2 to the hook every time someone is put on, I'm not going to run away just because; that's an absurd expectation.
- There is yet to be a good proposal for nerfing camping put forward, and these skilless strategies are never going to go away completely, though I wish that were not true. As such, survivors need to look not just at the lack of consideration from camping killers, but their role in it, and more often than not, they absolutely play a big role in it. Type B killers are a thing, but a lot of the time survs lean into their playstyle, rewarding it, and helping propagate they behavior we all hate.
Here's the reality: more often than not, good survs don't consistently get 4K'd by type B killers. If you find yourself consistently on the wrong side of camper 4Ks, it's likely you're either playing with potatoes or a potato yourself.
This "these killers think they're good but aren't" may be true, but it's also copium for survs not being as good as they think they are. A loss feels like an insult of sorts, and when insulted, we want to insult back. It's human nature. Killers find continued success with those low skill strats because they are typically matched with comparably skilled survs that facilitate their success.
Of course this is all open to exception because of crap matchmaking, but is generally true, imo.
I am not a spectacular killer, but virtually every game I've dominated and rarely left the general vicinity of the hook was due to poor surv play. I didn't go to other areas because the survs weren't in other areas.
Conversely, most games in which I've really been challenged (or struggled) are games in which survs split up, divided attention, didn't send 2 or 3 to the hook for saves, etc. Games in which playing the type B style would not have worked at all.
Personally, I will play whatever way seems logical in the moment; I've never gone into a game thinking "I'm gonna hook someone and wait for the others to come to me, and trade until everyone is dead". That's not fun. Sometimes it ends up that way, but It's not something I ever want.