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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/475836#Comment_475836
We could do that. However, if you are getting to the gates being powered without having used all your traps yet then it was already a really bad game to begin with. It's very rare for that to happen.
I think given how inconsistent Pig's ability to stall the game is, it is very possible to reach the endgame without using all your traps (in this case, it would mean using only three), especially if you opt to spread them out over the course of the trial instead of burning through them ASAP.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/475296#Comment_475296
I think those situations would be far and few. Also, by the time they even caught onto it you would've already got quite a bit of use out of it imo.
That said, we could make it only have like a 50% chance of effecting each trap and give you an extra trap as well. This would make it so even if they did know you had it they couldn't guarantee they would all be fakes and not be able to chance it. Maybe even make it so JUST your last 2 traps are fakes? By the time they knew they were fakes it wouldn't matter.
Hm...what if we made it the first two (maybe one) traps instead, had it also let Pig start with +1 RBTs, and possibly also dropped it a rarity? My concern with it being the last two traps is that if the last gen is popped before you get to those two traps (which could realistically happen if you have 5 traps), you just wasted a high rarity item for absolutely nothing. At least by putting it on at the start, you guarantee maximum time waste early on unless they successfully call your bluff.
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@Blueberry said:
I like the idea. It would give her a lot more continued pressure.
Her Rule Set #2 effect should be baseline.
In its place the new effect for the addon would basically make your traps "fakes". Essentially your traps would act just as normal, but be entirely non lethal. ie beeping as the timer gets shorter, beeping fast if you go near an exit gate like it's going to activate and kill you if you try and leave. When the timer ends or you try to leave an exit gate with it active, instead of it killing you it will just pop off. The thing is though that none of the boxes have a key. So essentially it will make the survivors waste the absolute maximum amount of time possible checking all boxes, panicking and maybe even making bad plays or letting people die because they think they're about to pop.
This trades lethality for much heavier time wasting and possibly bad plays from panicking that they are about to die.
Now yes this could be hindered a lot by SWF, but remember most games aren't SWF and even then most of them are just 2 people. This is also only if they are actually in voice comms to tell eachother. Even then, by the time they know what's going on they would have already gone through ALL the boxes much less other survivors currently still looking through them as well. I still think it would be highly effective in these worse scenarios.
This would also add some interesting builds where you want to combine addons that add boxes AND ones that increase the time they have to get it off so that it takes longer before they realize it's a fake.
Not to mention the added bonus of any RBT effects you are using from addons would stay with them much longer.
I think this would be an extremely fun and heart pumping addon, while also being quite effective.
This is an interesting idea, though it would be supremely feel-bad for the SWF Survivors to catch on to the fact and for your Ultra Rare add-on to be made 100% useless. Is there anything that can be done to alleviate that?
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@ba_tetsuo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/475156#Comment_475156
My idea is that its Punish yourself for the chance to escape the trap vs Don't punish yourself and die.
Jigsaw was rarely EVER a "if you hurt yourself, you definitely live". It was a "How much are you willing to hurt yourself to survive?"
How many people died in Jigsaw's traps right before they would have escaped, even after they had say, dipped their hand in acid, or crawled through razor wire? The point was always:
You need to be willing to mangle yourself, exhaust yourself, break your self to even have a chance. You need to endure all of those things and keep pushing to survive.
Because of that, my idea is punish the survivor per box that they search. How far are they willing to go to live?
Of course, this would require traps to be reworked similar to legion, where the timer doesn't tick in Pigs radius, as opposed to in a chase.
The problem is that would likely lead to pretty awful and unfun gameplay. It's always cool to keep as true to the source material as possible, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the gameplay itself.
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It's not much of a choice in Dead By Daylight when it's either "definitely die" or "maybe don't die". You're gonna pick the second one every time. I'm not saying something like this should be implemented, but if it were, I think it should be implemented as "punish yourself and definitely escape the trap" vs. "don't punish yourself and possibly don't escape the trap."
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Pig, I guess? Largely give her add-ons a nice 'ol lookover.
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@TheGameZpro3 said:
No.
For someone to become the next obsession, they must unhook the obsession.
If you kill the obsession, then no one can unhook them, to become the obsession. Good Try, though.
The perk says you only need to unhook another Survivor. It doesn't have to be the Obsession specifically.
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Simple Formula: You unhook my victims during Endgame = I GET ANGRY.
Simple Formula could also be useful for Myers when paired with Judith's Journal (Considerably increases stalk rate when stalking the Obsession).
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FOUR. TRAP. KILLS. ;)
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Patch 2.7.1:
The Monkey's Paw update
- Added a Bikini skin for the thiccest character in the game.
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@DarkWo1f997 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472996#Comment_472996
Yeah. And it emphasizes my point. The costume is IDENTICAL and looks ridiculous.
It would look equally ridiculous if the one in Scary Movie was wearing the DBD outfit.
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@Orti said:
@TAG just use your traps before the last gen is done. you can force survs now to not finish the last gen by putting traps after the fourth gen is done. that's you're new endgame and if played correctly a stronger way to extend the game then before. by stopping the timer when the endgame stops you couldn't close the hatch if the last surv is trapped and in all other endgame situations it would just force everyone without a trap out to give the last one a chance for the hatch otherwise you would just always secure one kill. it's a skill less play style without a a change. I wouldn't even call that what happened to the pig a nerf. as I said before peoplem seem to lazy to adept. freddy rework can't be good i9f people will act like they did with the legion and pig changes. But this talk is circling you repeating the same stuff without answering to what i said and I keep repeating the same stuff. Have a nice day and maybe try a different way of playing pig. i know a great Pig main who
"you can force survs now to not finish the last gen by putting traps after the fourth gen is done. that's you're new endgame and if played correctly a stronger way to extend the game then before"
If it's okay with you, I'd like to propose a hypothetical scenario to try and understand the logic behind this. If anyone else wants to put in their two cents, they are more than welcome to.
Let's say there are three games from three different timelines where three Pigs with identical loadouts play against three groups of four Survivors all also with identical loadouts, all on identical maps.
Pig #1 is from Patch 2.6.4, so no Endgame Collapse or Pig change. Pig #2 is from Patch 2.7.0, complete with Endgame Collapse and the change she received. Pig #3 is from a hypothetical 2.7.0 where instead of that Pig change, instead she got "The Endgame Collapse Timer pauses while a Survivor is wearing a Reverse Bear Trap."
All three games played out completely identically up until the fourth gen is finished. All four Survivors are still alive (how many times each has been hooked is the same between all three games), and the Pig has two traps remaining.
Once that fourth gen is completed, which Pig is in the best position, and what makes their situation better than the others?
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@Orti said:
@TAG I love playing against the Pig, I just see how brainless her rbt would be without a change and how it actual counters the whole EGC if the timer would stop completely right now you have the ability to actual force survs to not finish then last gen something the Pig couln't do before. I don't see the Nerf at all and I think most people just to lazy to think about a change for at least 5 seconds before complaining. Pig is as viable as before and still a lot of fun to face and play as. You just repeated what you said before without adding anything to my message or even acknowledging it. But I'm fine with talking about the same point over and over
I'm not understanding your logic. Right now, if the Survivors finish the last gen, all your unused traps go in the garbage. That actually incentivizes Survivors to forcefully finish the last gen to strip Pig of half her Power. How do you not see "Pig loses all of her unused RBTs when the last Generator is finished" as a nerf? I've said this before in other places, but pre-2.7.0, Pig put Traps on Survivors during the endgame because she did NOT want the game to end. That by nature already meant that she didn't have much to gain out of the Endgame Collapse (outside of the Hatch closing, which is not too relevant to the issue the Pig has currently). Of all the Killers, Pig cared the least about Survivors not leaving the trial. If anything, she gained the most out of it because them not leaving denied RBT Survivors the Hatch. They could have made it so Pig gameplay was largely unchanged by pausing the timer, but instead they strip her of her RBTs at the point where they were the most effective.
Pig right now has the same inconsistent early-mid game and a far worse end game. I say this as someone who loves playing the Pig and who did not care for making dedicated endgame builds. I've thought this through. I understand that Pig could not have been left as was. I still strongly believe this nerf was too much, and I legitimately do not understand your stance of "Pausing the EGC timer would be a bigger nerf to Pig than taking away her Traps when all gens are done."
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@Orti said:
@TAG I tried to explain why it wouldn't work if you can't see the issue with the old mechanic i don't mind, I wouldn't play against the Pig if they wouldn't changed the RBT for the endgame. This ability would have been even more brain dead as old Legion but people seem to like skill less mechanics aren't they?
And I explained why your explanation does not make sense. You seem to be ignoring/missing the fact that pausing the Endgame Collapse timer while someone is wearing a Reverse Bear Trap would mean that the endgame against the Pig would largely play out the same as it did before the Endgame Collapse was implemented. It's not "not changing the RBTs;" it's "changing the RBTs so that Pig could still play the same way without being potentially problematic due to the Endgame Collapse."
Unless your issue is simply that you never liked the way the Pig's endgame was implemented?
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@liquidlight said:
@TAG I never said that it didn't apply to survivors. Yes, they could jump in if they have a decent head-start or the killer has no idea where the hatch is. If it comes down to it the killers closing animation is faster than survivors jump animation. That's been proven.
Doesn't it come down to who reaches the Hatch first?
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@liquidlight said:
Killers aren't limited in any way when it comes to patrolling. It does come down to game play. A lot of killers in higher ranks are very thorough when searching around gens or in areas where they may have lost sight of a survivor or thought they saw one in. you saying that survivors are free roam is silly in comparison since survivors are trying to get gens done as much as killers are trying to stop them. Your logic would suggest that survivors would go nowhere else but to gens in that case, just as killers walk straight lines to them apparently. -sarcasm-
I didn't say Survivors are free roam. I said that Survivors can also look for the Hatch over the course of the game.
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@liquidlight said:
If they don't think they can finish the gens and have a key or don't care about each other at all then sure... they could look for the hatch. That doesn't mean they'll find it and if they do it doesn't mean the killer still won't reach it and close it before they jump in.
The same applies to the Killer as well, does it not? The Killer could look for the Hatch, but that does not mean that they will, and if they do, it doesn't mean that the Survivor won't reach it and jump in before the Killer closes it.
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@liquidlight said:
If the killer gets to he hatch before the survivor it's basically a free kill unless in the rare chance the gates are on opposite sides of the map.
Didn't I just say that it can't be a free Kill if the Killer has to ensure that they reach the Hatch first? Both sides have to put in work to get to the Hatch first. The amount of work they have to put in varies on how the game unfolded.
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@liquidlight said:
The survivor isn't going to patrol for the hatch if another survivor is still alive unless they're selfish and think they can get it before the other. Most survivors aren't and will continue to work on gens which leaves them static. You said it yourself... the killer is going to patrol which gives them a greater chance of viewing the surrounding areas (not even including when chasing) and seeing the hatch.
"The survivor isn't going to patrol for the hatch if another survivor is still alive unless they're selfish and think they can get it before the other. Most survivors aren't and will continue to work on gens which leaves them static."
C'mon, really? You don't think a non-negligible number of Survivors look for the Hatch if there are only two Survivors left and they don't think they can finish the gens?
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@liquidlight said:
It's not really a loss if you stood no chance to begin with and in some cases survivors stand no chance. If a killer shuts the hatch and the map is small or gates too close together... the killer is the one getting the free kill, the free win, and in some cases doesn't have to do anything but stand there and watch gate lights since they're usually within sight of each other.
If a Killer has to get to the Hatch before the Survivor, it's not a free kill, is it? Much like how it's not a free Hatch escape for the Survivor because they also have to get to the Hatch first?
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@liquidlight said:
@TAG That is a reasonable assumption that the killer didn't see the hatch because he's too focused on his objectives. Yes, there's a chance the killer didn't see it because they didn't run in that location, too. You're really looking for a fight, aren't you? So angry.
I'm saying that is circular logic that doesn't hold up.
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@liquidlight said:
@TAG Uh... the fact that the killer didn't see the hatch.
So the Killer didn't see the Hatch, which means that Killer is way too focused on the people they are chasing, and the proof for that is that the Killer didn't see the Hatch?
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@liquidlight said:
If you don't see the hatch when you're playing killer then you're way too focused on the people you're chasing. If killers finding the hatch first and closing it wasn't a problem then we wouldn't have the countless posts about broken End Game right now.
"If you don't see the hatch when you're playing killer then you're way too focused on the people you're chasing."
And what exactly do you base this on?
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@liquidlight said:
Obviously. That's why I said in a prior post that devs should share data on it.
Right, but it means that there isn't much of a reason to take your word on it. So it becomes "You Killer mains are entitled for not seeing things my way even though I can't really prove my point effectively."
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@liquidlight said:
Well, I have several maxed killers that I play every day with wraith and spirit being my favs (I also play survivor every day). If I didn't find the hatch first then the survivor jumped through it. In the majority of my matches I find the hatch first unless its a huge map and I didn't know where it is (usually I stumble upon it). If its a small map like swamp I know I'm going to destroy the team. In the streams I've watched... killers are finding the hatches before the third person is killed and know where it is. If there's a standoff in my match its because I found the hatch and stood there until the survivor just gave up waiting for me to leave and revealed themselves.
But you go ahead and remain unconvinced. The fact that people who play killers are shooting this down simply because they can't shut the hatch even though the timer would remain and promise them a kill shows its not about hatch standoffs at all. It's about that win and getting a 4k. So who's really entitled?
Anecdotal evidence is not great evidence. I could just as easily say that my experiences contradict yours, and neither of us would be able to prove the other wrong.
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@liquidlight said:
Hatch standoffs do not always occur from a natural chase all the time. Usually the killer finds the hatch first. Either way it results in the same thing that the timer would ultimately fix. So I don't see why you think its such a bad idea. The killer still gets the advantage and if a standoff does happen the killer also gets a free kill, just like now when a "gate" standoff occurs.
I'm saying that I don't buy your claim that Killer almost always finds the Hatch first. And because of that, I'm not convinced that the Killer is vastly favored in the race to the Hatch. And because of THAT, I'm not convinced that the ability to close the Hatch needs to be removed.
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I want to like Pebble, but I've never been successful with mindgaming a Killer with it. How of that is the perk's viability vs. me being awful as Survivor, I can't really say.
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@liquidlight said:
That is literally a hatch standoff so I'm confused by your point. The fact that there would be a timer means that there would be a 4 minute standoff at best. You can't tell survivors to stop crying about 4 minutes if you're going to. If the survivor doesn't go for a gate... they're dead.. killer gets the kill.
That's a Hatch stand-off that occurs as a result of a natural chase, not as a result of the Killer finding the Hatch first. Doesn't seem like you are accounting for that when you say that the Killer finds the Hatch first 99% of the time.
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@liquidlight said:
@TAG See point three.
3) The sacrifice animation allows killers plenty of time to get to the hatch if they know where it is, which they almost always do, and if they don't somehow know where it is then it gives them time to find it
Hatch standoffs were a thing because killers almost always got to the hatch first. if they didn't... survivors would jump in and the match would be over. The sheer number of posts and complaints about hatch standoffs are proof enough killers reach hatch first 99% of the time or hatch standoffs wouldn't be a thing.
What about the times where the Killer finds the Survivor, and during the chase, they both make their way to the Hatch, where the stand-off occurs because Killer couldn't swing but Survivor couldn't jump?
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@liquidlight said:
Reason killers usually reach hatch first:
1) Killers have more movement speed - this doesn't count special abilities like billys chainsaw, nurses blink, spirits phase, wraiths invisibility speed boosts (which can be increased by add-ons), etc.
2) Killers will almost always know where the hatch is because they are patrolling gens and chasing survivors while survivors, unless chased, are relatively static and working on a gen only to bounce to the next one and again remain static.
3) The sacrifice animation allows killers plenty of time to get to the hatch if they know where it is, which they almost always do, and if they don't somehow know where it is then it gives them time to find it
Yes, survivor has a chance to discover the hatch when fleeing killer, moving around map, or during last animation but in a hatch race the killer wins 99% of the time.
1) Not really relevant if the Survivor already knows where the Hatch is and is going for it while the 3rd Survivor is on a one-way trip to Hooksburg.
2) Same can apply to the Survivor through going to gens, saving Survivors, or just being chased.
3) See point 1.
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@liquidlight said:
They both do, yeah. I never denied that. It changes nothing I've stated, though.
I mean, you haven't really proven your case that the Killer finds the Hatch first way more often.
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@liquidlight said:
I've already stated why its highly unlikely survivors will reach the hatch before killers. I haven't been in a game as a survivor or killer where this has happened aside from once on coldwind. I also haven't seen a game on a stream where a survivor without a key got the hatch first. And if my other post shows then you can ignore this one but it said it had to be approved first for some reason so... here's this post instead.
They both have a chance to see the Hatch before it opens through normal gameplay. If not, it's just a matter of who stumbles upon it first. I don't see reason to believe it's not true.
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@liquidlight said:
Well, maybe one day the devs will share the data with us so we'll know if its unfair or not. At this time, it seems unfair. I have yet to see a survivor escape through a hatch without a key or open a gate and get away except for one time when the gates were on opposite sides of Red Forest. I'm not saying it's never happened. I'm just saying in the streams I've watched and games I've played it hasn't.
I just like the idea of having more stimulating, suspenseful gameplay. The way it is now, it's not. Hatch gets closed, the survivor realizes they won't get a gate open in time or tries and fails and both survivor and killer stand there waiting for the entity to do its thing. That's boring.
Or the Survivor gets to the Hatch first. That's an option.
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I'm just not convinced that removing the Hatch closing is something that needs to happen. Doing something about the Gate spawns or something, maybe. But I'm not convinced that the race to the Hatch is an unfair one.
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@liquidlight said:
Most survivors aren't traveling all over the map. They're trying to get a gen done and unless chased don't leave it. Also, the death animation takes a significant amount of time, allowing a killer to rush to the hatch. If you're denying killers will reach hatch first in most situations than you're lying to yourself.
"If you're denying killers will reach hatch first in most situations then you're lying to yourself."
And what information do you base this on?
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@moonlunn said:
That’s kinda hard to punish though because if they just start punishing people who do that they will also have to punish people who legitimately lose their internet connection
The solution would be to punish people who do it too frequently. If someone's internet connection is bad enough that it would trip such a system, that would say more about their internet than the system.
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@SmokePotion said:
The surprise part of the attack isn't basic. if the power registers as a surprise attack, it shouldn't count. In fact, i was under the impression this is how it should be, to be in line with spirit and Hag in this regards.
I've never seen a MoM proc against my hag. Since 90% of my hits are phantasm attacks.
Edit:
Also, make your choice counters MoM, by removing one of the procing hits.
But the attack part of the attack is basic, no? I could be mistaken (if I am, someone please correct me), but I don't believe Spirit attacking from out of her Killer power or Hag attacking out of a teleport prevents MoM from getting a stack. I know they recently fixed Nurse attacks out of blinks to properly give MoM stacks.
@MystiKasT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472333#Comment_472333
Technically it is a basic attack. However this could be modified. Surprise attacks carried several modifiers with them the first being increased bonus points 1400 blood points if I recall correctly.
Surprise attacks can also inflict blindness and hemorrhaging which basic attacks cannot do without perks.
In that sense to even the scales, we could classify surprise attacks as non Basic attacks because of how they can be heavily modified.
I am not necessarily opposed to finding some way to modify certain Killer powers such as Wraith in a way that attacking following the use of that power would not technically count as a basic attack (such as the blindness or hemorrhage idea). The question then would be to what extent it should be done.
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@MystiKasT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472316#Comment_472316
It's an attempt to even the scales a little bit
But again, what about the attack isn't basic? I'm not trying to argue either way with regards to MoM, but I want there to be consistency in the logic behind it.
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@Bravo0413 said:
Surprise attacks shouldnt count towards mom
Why not? What about the attack is not basic?
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Lol, it didn't occur to me that today was Mother's Day when I posted mom-themed Killer perks. Coincidentially, they also partly involve punishment for making messes.
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@Orion said:
I'm pretty sure Mother's Day was last week.
Mother's Day is today in the US. Not sure if it's different in other places.
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@ShyN3ko said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472174#Comment_472174
In my experience,
Wraith surprise attack give MoM stacks.
Pig Ambush attack give MoM stacks.
Maybe we need a Dev, how the perk should work with this killer abilities.
Far as I can tell, Wraith attacks giving stacks is intended because the attack itself isn't actually any different than normal, whereas the Pig ambush does not function like a normal attack.
Attacks that I would imagine don't give stacks to MoM are Grabs, Bear Traps, Chainsaws (both Hillbilly and Leatherface), Hatchets, Ambush attacks, Feral Frenzy attacks, and Corrupted Purge.
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@CustomerService said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472154#Comment_472154
No. My suggestion is to trigger the end game collapse when there is one survivor left and remove the hatch closing ability so the survivor isn’t trapped and has a way out instead of having none.
But they have their chance out with the Hatch. Why should that chance be permanent?
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@CustomerService said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472147#Comment_472147
It’s meant to be 3 minutes if what they said on stream is true. The fact it’s 4 minutes seems to be a mistake. If it’s not, even worse.
And of course it’s being held hostage. If you can do nothing but watch as you are kept there for as long as possible you are being held hostage. That the basement could be exploited to do that forever doesn’t change it’s the same experience even if much shorter.
BHVR has a very specific definition of "holding the game hostage" that involves the game not being able to end. Trapping someone in the basement while they have an active RBT, for example, does not meet their definition of holding the game hostage.
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@CustomerService said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472121#Comment_472121
As easily as triggering the end game collapse as soon as you are the last survivor standing. It would give the survivor the opportunity to find the hatch or open a gate quickly without being trapped. If he’s found he can hopefully stumble upon the open hatch instead of being slugged or held hostage for 3 minutes with no way out.
So your suggestion is to have the Endgame Collapse start when there is only one Survivor because then Survivors can just look for the Gate instead of the Hatch.
Why does the Survivor not do that anyways? If the Killer closes the Hatch, they are right there to start opening the Gate. If the Killer just camps by the Hatch, it means the Survivor has time to start 99%ing gens. Either the Survivor finishes the gens and powers the gates to open anyways, the Killer leaves the Hatch open to look for you so you can jump in, or the Killer closes the Hatch and the gates are powered for the Survivor to open.
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@CustomerService said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472115#Comment_472115
Keep in mind I’m talking about being -the last- survivor. Finding the hatch and closing it when there is one survivor left is really easy. The survivor can not just openly run around to find it or open a gate. Chances are the vast majority of the time you will stumble upon it as the killer within 1 minute easily.
The last Survivor and the Killer find the Hatch, the Killer cannot close it, and the timer has not yet started. How does the Endgame Collapse stop the Hatch stand-off?
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@Madjura said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472108#Comment_472108
What were the add-ons? Maybe one of the add-ons causes the ambush attack to bug out and not be considered as a regular attack anymore
Most likely Last Will + Bag of Gears, as I was burning through them a bit to save up on some of the purple add-ons. I don't use add-ons that affect the Ambush.
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@CustomerService said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472109#Comment_472109
Which shouldn’t be allowed since the end game already removes thw possibility of any hatch standoff or stalling.
A Killer and a Survivor both find the Hatch, but the Killer cannot close it, and the timer has not yet started. How does the Endgame Collapse end the Hatch stand-off in this situation?
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@CustomerService said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/472105#Comment_472105
The hatch standoff is already gone adding a timer. The ability to close the hatch is completely unnecessary.
The timer does not start until the Hatch is closed. You understand this, correct?
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It does not add a stack to MoM, last I checked. I've had a few games where I was able to keep MoM from activating by using Ambush when I was able to to keep them from getting the full 3 tokens.