SpringMyTrap
SpringMyTrap
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@fussy said:
This is what I am keep saying for last 3 years. If survivors want killer be able to do nothing but chase different survivors on different sides of the map – be ready to get Krasue and Nurse level of killers. Killers with 20 seconds chase no matter how good or bad survivor is. And it will be uninteractive hell and total reduction in need for skill for both sides.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967766#Comment_3967766
I don't think even 10% of playerbase understands it, but when we suddenly will find ourselves in the game where chase as interactive as doing gen, it will be too late. But at least it will be casual party game that survivors wanted.
the biggest irony is that it backfires first and foremost on these casual players because when killers will be forced to play fair on unfair killers, there wont be any skill issues or self regulations with spreading hooks on balanced killers.
better players will be better.
in a very messed up way, the game will become even more competitive.
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@Ohyakno said:
How does nurse power creep demo when she came out before him? That's not how power creep works.
It seems like you're advocating for all killers to be high C tier. Demo sucks. Against good survivors his shred is just a zoning tool rather than something you use to get hits outside of animation locks because it's piss easy to crouch tech and dodge at max range. I've had games where I didn't even have time to set up portals because gens got done so fast and it was back to back chases constantly.
Like if demo is your gold standard for what killers should be then you've got problems. You want pre-6.10 queues for survivor.
no, im advocating for all killers to be not stronger than high A tier killers (Singularity / Spirit level) and no weaker than low B tier (Knight / Demo level).
Demo is a solid killer if you're good, it doesnt mean he isnt outdated or cant be buffed, but he is a good showcase of the lower end of killer power/difficulty.
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@Blizer said:
Krasue apparently is also Flashlight Save immune if she looks into the sky in head form
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1nqzyq7/bug_krasue_immune_to_flashlight_saves/
This killer man…
this is luckily a bug, but this is just salt on the wound atp yea
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007185#Comment_4007185
Fair enough. It feels like people won't accept non endurance OTR atp but hopefully im wrong.
I do quite like the new OTR personallyyeah, they really want their crutch perk back and, frankly, i'm content with that, better this than the game being broken with the systems that would've come with the perk.
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losing collision doesnt matter here if you're just running behind the chased guy, shielding them from the hit, forcing the killer to walk through you instead of hitting right away.
Removing collision is only helpful to stop basekit BT abuse where killer is close enough to walk through you.
any lasting "protection" like that is fundamentally flawed and going to be weaponized.
They did a good change by removing the endurance, but they need to give a better defensive effect rather than just removing the scratchmarks (though it is also pretty great, people will appreciate it once they calm down)
I think the change OTR really needs is to be "personal" babysitter
- After being unhooked you receive elusive status effect for 80 seconds and 10% haste for 30 seconds.
Devs need to move away from weaponizeable anti tunnel and focus on making anti tunnel perks that make it way harder to catch / hit the survivor in the first place.
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@JustWhimsical said:
Wish they remembered the infection issue wesker had on release. Because due to his infection not going away when hooked, you just got tunneled out. After they tweaked things they made him feel way better to play against and play in my opinion.
I think she can still be fixed, but if they wait too long to fine tune her ability and infection, I am afraid she might be in the perma unfun to play against category with ghoul. It sucks cause we were actually doing pretty well with new releases like Springtrap, he was pretty well received, but they went really bit the bullet and went overboard with her.yeah, too bad springtrap is simply unfit for the game they're trying to make around failures like krasue or ghoul
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@Anti051 said:
If they nerf it now, they'll just have to buff it again after the revised anti-snowball effects go in. So quit hooting, hollering and crying like kids in a day-care and just chill out.
Or they can just nerf it and NOT release the systems that will require every new killer to be this mind numbingly boring slop.
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OP thinks killers are the 20% minority when the real split is closer to 40/60 if not 50/50.
OP also thinks devs are playing favourites with sides instead of dumbing down the game for casual players on either end.
cute.
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@Xord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007033#Comment_4007033
And yet I'm afraid she will get the Kaneki treatment:
She will get very minor, barely noticeables nerfs, and they'll call it a day because "we nerfed her 2 times that's enough".
And she will remain among the top killers right below Kaneki but probably above Blights or such. (not counting Nurse, as Nurse is only overpowered in the right hands, difficult to compare with killers very easy to play)yup and then they'll use her and similar killers as justification for these systems.
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@Cave17Plays said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005329#Comment_4005329
Not to mention the three slowdowns and dissolution, so any chance you had at any counterplay whatsoever is gone. It is honestly so miserable to play against her.
She has all of these things going for her:
- Mobility
- Third-person Camera View
- Disorienting Terror Radius (due to the bells) - this is an accessibility issue that was overlooked entirely.
- The Lack of punishment if she misses.
- Her misaligned hitbox allows her to hit you over a downed pallet.
- Her lunge is massive, to the point where it ignores dead hard (This is probably a bug, as I've seen people dead hard go white from endurance and immediately hit the floor).
- The lack of cooldown from transforming to being able to land a hit.
- The lack of cooldown from a basic whip attack to another attack.
- The fact that she can vault without punishment is due to her mobility, which counters the slowing effect of vaulting.
- Lack of cooldown from spitting and missing.
- Lack of cooldown from spitting to transforming.
- Landing a spit is a guaranteed 100% infection, with the bonus of infecting multiple people at 100% in a single shot.
- Survivors on hooks are infected upon being unhooked, if they were infected prior, making them very easy to tunnel.
- Low mushroom spawns - sometimes, to remove infected, you have to cross the entire map.
- Holding a mushroom gives you no advantage whatsoever, because if you get infected, you can't eat it before you go down or get hit again. After all, the effect takes far too long to take effect.
- She can hit over low tiles with her whip, even if you are crouched behind them.
- No collision, so she doesn't get punished for missing a whip attack.
And if anyone says "Learn the counterplay…" would you care to explain the counterplay?
Yeah, people who think she has any actual counterplay are delulu.
The only counterplay is praying she has been dropped on the head or pays zero attention to what is going on.
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I wont apologize, because they had same issues just less extreme.
Every few years, BHVR make the same mistake - they try to make a killer that doesnt require skill to do well with expecting the community to suck it up.
They make a killer that doesnt really take any skill to pick up and nearly hit the skill ceiling, while requiring tremendous and incomparable effort from the survivor side to deal with.
First time it truly happened in 2017 when they released Freddy 1.0 whose power made it really easy to find stealthing survivors, keep track of them and thus was very oppressive for bad players, while being very easy to use. Freddy was objectively bad killer, but only if the survivor were good enough to loop which was a WAY LESS common skill back then. Most people relied hard on stealth and Freddy just made it outright impossible because you couldnt hide from what you cant see and once he found you, there was no hiding.
in 2018 when they released Legion 1.0 who could vault pallets, turn on 5.2 movement speed, but requires 5 hits to down people (sounds familiar, doesnt it?). Scamper gameplay progenitor.
In 2019 they reworked old Freddy into Freddy 2.0. whose power was notorious for being first jack of all trades kit in the game that played the game itself for the player - it had free pressure, free antiloop, free map mobility and addons provided free gen slowdown which gave birth to Forever Freddy.
In 2020-2022 we didnt really have "no skill" killers, though you can count trickster or old zoning slinger/pyramids if you're really trying to stretch it, but I personally wouldn't.
In 2023 we hit big - Skull Merchant whose power was another overloaded jack of all trades kit that plays itself. At first she was just a 3 gen monster that was so easy to use that some no name bozo could hold the best survivor team in the world hostage for an hour while listening to music. Then she got reworked and turned into a worse combination of ghostface, clown and legion. She had 10 seconds of on-demand stealth that was given for shitting out drones, she had slowdown, haste and free hit that were giving for #########-a-drone in loop and walking back and forth while survivor couldn't really do anything.
Then we got Chucky - the smallest killer in the game (which already passively makes him much harder to keep track of, thus making mindgames way easier) whose power was a 2 hit budget Oni dash on demand and..
THE SCAMPER - the mechanic that lets a baby killer ignore the most important map resources and dont bother outplaying / removing them.
this is self explanatory.
and in 2025 we got a hitscan free injury killer with a mobility power rivalling blight while taking same skill input as legion while also having scamper.
and now we have Krasue who has all of that and more.
except the Ghoul and Krasue weren't designed for the "old" dbd where killers can be mean and tunnel or slug. They were made for the HEALTHY dbd, where killer isnt allowed to threaten survivors with fast death or snowball, so while most of these old killers were piss easy to play and dominate pubs with, they were also pretty weak which is no longer the case for Krasue/Ghoul both being better than The Spirit.
Casual design/balancing at its finest.
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thats the least they could do but she would still be really miserable to deal with, just not THAT good at tunneling
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@OrangeBear said:
Let's not break what is already working with ACTUALLY fun and interactive killers like Wesker, Springtrap or Unknown. THESE are the killers that offer the best for both casual and competitive playerbase and they should be what the game is balanced around.
This 1000%. It makes me very sad that people think springtrap is weak only because the other killers being released are so broken. Like literally the game would actually be better right now if ghoul and krasue didn't exist.
powercrept before his own release, yea
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@Skitten56 said:
Even if she was balanced for that kind of game balance design, it would still be horribly unfun if implemented within such a system.
There is nothing fun about getting easy downs due to an OP power in order to force quick chase times. or going down quick with no counterplay options because BHVR decides punishing killer mistakes is unfair.
Designing / balancing killers the way Krasue was is a HORRIBLE mistake we're seeing play out LIVE.
Their design and balance direction as of late is just terrible in general for the game and will lead to bad outcomes. I'm deeply worried for the future of the game at this point. Killer powers and map rebalances have been utter garbage as of late.
of course she would be unfun, that's the courtesy of the "killer is somehow supposed to win twice as many chases for 60% killrates" design mentality.
the only way BHVR can maintain expected killrates, fair killers and no tunnelling/slugging is if they drastically nerf generator times, because killer cannot afford to spread hooks if they are not crushing survivors in every chase.
or to just watch every killer play endgame builds, that will also work.
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@OrangeBear said:
The youtube link's not working but i can imagine
I tried to directly link the video, tell me if it works.
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@IamFran said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006213#Comment_4006213
But at least Nurse isn't piss-easy to play so she is a more niche killer, only seen frequently in high MMR.
yeah there is also a factor of accessibility.
krasue / ghoul are extremely accessible and easy to play, but nurse/blight/etc arent.
and in spite of that, the former are way less fair / interactive despite rivaling the latter in terms of strength.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006225#Comment_4006225
It doesn't cancel the fact that his haste add-ons encourages missing with power or teleports done in messy way without actual interactivity and meaning. On PTB, for example, with haste incentives and specific build he were able to zoom around map and getting free downs just because high haste can deny any skill from survivor and make every 50/50 pallet trash. The way how they artificially limited his special ability to justify turning him m1 killer for this few seconds just work because they recycled another killer's ability. Not a rework, not a new take, but a recycle with an artificial limitation and a crutch in the form of speed.
I can’t support such approach just because he is new player friendly killer and not op, as I told before.
Nothing bad about the players themselves, and I don't experience anything unpleasant towards people who main them. I appreciate when his main trying to use max potential of m2. I still enjoy playing against this killer and I’m not some dc fan just because I saw principles I don’t like. For me it's just a matter of how BHVR did the character design, and how they keep doing this. Krasue doesn't have free hit scan as Ghoul, her power just wasn't limited like Animatronic’s one with one axe only.
If you remove the artificial limitations on Springtrap's ability usage, giving him 4.6 speed after miss will seriously break the game. Because the core design is poor. Just like Krasue's. Her problem can be solved with literally one principle: switch the flight to a different button, and make her whip a special ability rather than a basic attack. That's it. Another limitation as a crutch for a problematic design approach
It doesnt matter.
It's fine if he gets options for alternative and potentially easier playstyle.
You are not seeing the forest behind the trees here.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005412#Comment_4005412
Every killer that was released after Hound Master is designed for new players only and have very little of progression. But ofc they overbuffed them by numbers or have extremely braindead mechanics. And it’s 4th killer (if don’t count Myers rework that has same principle) already that shares this tendency. I don’t even share widely accepted “Animatronic is fine” point just because he isn’t op. His teleports are very lazy mechanic and his main power instead of punishing u after missplay encourage with 4.6 speed and haste add-ons. I despise such approach
Just because they failed to teach players how to play the game and separating casualty from enthusiasts... It's so lazy giving broken toys as crutches only to claim about some need of anti tunnel later. And they doing same for survivors. Let’s create broken concept of anti tunnel, to justify buffs for already strong killer. I don't appreciate this from both sides no matter what. Killers should stay strong, but they HAVE TO be designed around player being able to do a little until he actually master it. Like Oni, Huntress, PHead, Artist. Or stay casual, but mid as Nemesis with low progression from the start.
Animatronic is in fact fine because all the "noob friendly" stuffs don't come at the cost of agency of the survivors.
He gets 4.6 for throwing axe regardless if he misses because he shouldn't be stuck as 4.4 for 7-10 seconds without power when any other 4.4 has access to their power almost immediately or have 4.4 due to small collision and being their own power.
Doors can be as boring as you want, it doesnt matter in this context.
He doesnt get like "axe autoaim" to help people who dont want to bother learning aiming or some other insane mechanic like ghoul or krasue do.
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Yesterday I played a dredge match on the Gideon where I 12 hooked the survivors (thanks hook counter btw, really helps to maintain awareness) and they complained about me being boring.
I didnt just 12 hook them, I had a choice to kill the tunnel out at like 4 hooks because they gave up halfway through and just let me down them, yet I kept playing because I saw I had enough resource to spare to not end it yet.
They still cried.
Wild.
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@Glaive said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006212#Comment_4006212
That’s my problem, why is it ok for Nurse to be this powerful but no one can ?
and how is that related? yea, nurse should've been nerfed a while ago, so just because she wasn't every new killer should be trying to one up her? this is a ridiculous mindset.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006189#Comment_4006189
Look, i know you're spamming this in hopes of forming a narrative that tunneling is necessary, but you're wrong.
Hard tunneling at 5 gens isn't necessary, people refuse to try anything else because this is an insanely simple and highly effective strategy that is difficult to counter base kit. It needs to be addressed.
The balance of the killer has nothing to do with this mechanic.
Kaneki was launched in a basically similar state, as were many of the recent killers. It's BHVR's mo, and business model at this point, is to push out incredibly powerful new killer releases to push sales, then adjust that character for balance after the next chapter or so.
It's not compensation for anything, they just want the new killers to be oppressive so people buy it. She was doing just fine on ptb, then after pulling the tunneling changes, they announced a laundry list of buffs for this character that would go live.
Those buffs make sense if they want to entice people to buy the new, overpowered killer. It doesn't make sense in your narrative because they already had scrapped the "supposed reason" for making her strong.
I am spamming this not to form a narrative, but to maybe finally wake up people like you from a self inflicted delusion.
let me explain it to you in terms you maybe will be able to understand:
DbD is a game being made for casual players.
On both sides.
If it wasnt the case, they wouldn't be gutting skill expression out of it or making killers that play themselves more and more.
One way or the other the game will have options for casual players to play the game and enjoy it.
if casual survivors hate being tunnelled, then they won't be.
if casual killers lose their agency to tunnel, they will be compensated by way higher agency in chase or anywhere else.
One way or the other, casual killers will be getting their 60% killrates, this isn't going anywhere.
If you genuinely believe BHVR will force half of their playerbase into "git gut" while handholding the other, you are under a severe delusion.
Either BHVR will be forcing both sides into "getting better" or they will be dragging down either. They are doing the latter by releasing handicapping systems and killers that leave survivors no agency in chase.
BHVR's choice to handhold survivors with tunnelling, leads to a natural choice to handhold killers with chases in form of overpowered oppressive killers. Of course, most of the older killers will either have to be buffed or reworked. Luckily, BHVR also figured out separate killer balancing so one of the things you are going to see very soon is overtuned compensation for "fairplay" that will ensure that people who stick to old fair designs will have something like better basekit PR to make gentimes even slower than they are now to keep up.
You are right about one thing - BHVR realized that "overpowered" chase killers sell so much better than fair and interactive ones. Of course, that leads to absurd amount of balance and design issues, but these are not yet concerning people who are still scared of the killer. So they'll just roll out said anti tunnel/slug systems that will definitely balance Krasue and call it a day.
So yeah, I strongly suggest that you reconsider YOUR narrative about tunnelling being the root of all evil and consider that it is just a boogeyman people like you made up without understanding what are the inevitable consequences of developers designing the game without considering tunnelling.
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@Glaive said:
What would you do against Nurse in the same situation ?
since when Nurse is a good example of a fair killer?
but sure, let's say what I would've done against Nurse - sent it to edgemap and played junk tiles where I actually play 50s or force her to walk me down.
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@PinheadGlazer said:
Its gonna be unfun until they nerf her thats just how it is
yeah, ill just keep playing my mains until they become obsolete / not worth playing to anti tunnel/slug systems.
then Ill probably quit dbd because it will be miserable on both sides for people like me who value competitive and interactive elements of the game.
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New killer isn't overpowered, just completely unfit for the dbd where killers are bottlenecked by their potential ability to tunnel.
Turns out when BHVR don't have to worry about balancing the killer around the threat of tunnelling, the killer ends up being uninteractive miserable piece of slop.
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How are we feeling about Krasue, the first killer they designed and clearly balanced upcoming anti-tunnelling system, are you enjoying this gameplay more?
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yeah low ping on surv / high ping on killer is insane.
they really need to figure out how to make that stuff consistent
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@tes said:
Never balance roles in game around casual players
Another non skill killer who were buffed because of non skill PTB
i mean, either way they were balanced around bad / casual players, it was just a matter of HOW was that accomplished.
casuals cried too hard about being bullied and tunnelled/slugged, well, here we go, this is the first half of that.
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@Crowman said:
I think the issue was bhvr took qol issues and slapped buffs to them. I said during the ptb all they needed to do was give her qol adjustments for the clunky parts of her kit and see how she does. But it's obvious the entire ptb was balanced around the anti tunneling system they added and the devs failed to consider the changes being made without the system in place.
She wouldnt become much more fun to face if they didnt also buff her.
She would still remain a killer who can just scamper every pallet, chase you down with 4.8 / 7.0 ability and hit you with extended attack reach.
The only difference would've been that MAYBE in some loops she would be clunky enough to be forced to swap. MAYBE.
but it's still same uninteractive slop gameplay with no meaningful skill input from the killer.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005338#Comment_4005338
Damn, beat me to it, and said it better than I could...
The new benchmark for DBD is very concerning... Survivors got so much stronger, but no one noticed because of new A and S tiers non stop for the past year and a half.
We live in a world where Huntress is no longer considered A tier... AFTER getting buffed.
yeah, Im the kind of a person who was dying on a hill that xenomorph is A tier if you're good, but looking at all that, yea, nah, that's just a different dimension of power.
and these are "easy" and "medium" difficulty killers so far. We have yet to see their vision of the "S tier" killer with that benchmark.
They might unironically try to powercreep nurse next time.
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Boring one dimensional killer.
I played maybe 3 games at most, won all of them, then went to play 1v1s with my teammates one of which unironically alt+f4'ed the game and said they had enough for today and I would never touch her again unless something fundamentally changes about her.
The only part I was mildly interested in is her macromanagement with mushrooms but it's pointless because they respawn automatically so you dont really care about restraining yourself from swapping at your convenience, granted that is rarely required.
Her actual chase power is grossly overtuned and has too much going on simply for existing, way too easy to use and barely has any ceiling to it. At most you can just hold checkspots with 3rd person view and bodyblock people like wraith. That's it. The rest is just hold W, hit them with unavoidable attack, catch up with flight, do again.
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@XDgamer018 said:
what killers should bhvr think of when creating fun killers that are strong enough to hold actually work but also fun to play as AND against? (killers like demo who are seen as fair SUCK to play since demo currently is very weak)
what?
demo is outdated, but he is a very good example of the BALANCED and FAIR killer. he is on the weaker end, but he represents the healthy balance between "killer has options" and "survivors have options".
the choices he and survivors make actually matter and he isnt insanely oppressive/OP to be unfair when he expresses HIS agency in the match by tunnelling or slugging.
the problem with him is that he is, well, outdated and powercrept by newer better killers even in the same jack of all trades niche even if these killers arent remotely harder to use. He is also massively powercrept by killers like blight, nurse, ghoul and now krasue who the game is BEING BALANCED AROUND, resulting into killers like him being inherently obsolete in the absurdly oppressive survivor perk meta made to keep up with S tier killers.
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@Amanova said:
Very true she is so broken, super unfun to vs, also they like to tunnel for some reason because your infection doesn't go away when being hooked...
the last part is very worrying, they didnt even bother to change that, knowing none of the systems go live yet.
this is either peak incompetence and lack of foresight or a deliberate set up so that when they try with these fundamentally flawed systems again next time, people won't argue anymore because there will be a scarecrow like her.
and like the thing is that she is going to be uninteractive, unfun slop anyways, the only difference being she wouldn't be able to tunnel with the systems, but it doesnt matter when the gameplay quality will rapidly descend.
they will never make another springtrap or any similar interactive / balanced killer ever again if they want to sell them well and if they do make such mistake, this killer will have to be absurdly overbuffed to ever stay relevant in that tunnelling free game design.
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@Gastongard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976619#Comment_3976619
I think the perk shouldnt work on endgame either. I dont know, it seems cheap, a free scape paired with soulguard.
i think it just needs to not be affected by recovery speed & work once per trial so killer can play around it and not just deal with it throughout the whole match.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976668#Comment_3976668
yeah, thanks, I know, MMR system does the same thing - survivors can still win at the same time as killer.Not the same thing. I said "everyone". Every survivor and the killer used to be able to "win" in a trial going off their matchmaking system at the time. In the current 1v1 MMR system, that's not possible.
It just goes to show BHVR's history of not wanting firm win conditions.
just like any other similar MMR system? your skill level is derived from a big sample of matches, the more, the better.Except most MMR systems are a more clear binary than DbD is.
objectively, there's no reason to play for rescue, people just do that because it's fun and rewarding.How dare people do something that is fun and rewarding.
There's an MMR system. BHVR says people don't have to treat it as the win system if they don't want. People who play the game don't treat it like its the win system. It would be silly to say there is a singular standard of wins when neither the devs or the player base act like there is.
that's the criteria devs use to determine skill. good or not it's what we have.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
Conviction is fine. It's basically only really powerful in good SWF, and as you know, killer players only go against good SWF like 0.1% of the time. The vast majority of games are against hapless, discombobulated solos
i mean, yes, its mainly powerful in hands of SWFs and that's why it should be nerfed. Solos can abuse it, but to a much lesser extent because for conviction to become broken, survivors need to apply gen pressure on the killer.
we don't need more perks buffing SWFs, teamwork and high gen efficiency.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976423#Comment_3976423
I’m one of those people too.
Look, the game has to be unbalanced. The killer needs that “unfair” edge.
It’s PvP, yipp — but asymmetric PvP.
One killer vs. four survivors. That’s the core.
If both sides were equally strong, the four survivors would just coordinate and crush the killer every time.
No way around it. Survivors have numbers and task division on their side.
So the killer gets tools that feel unfair. That’s how balance works here.
Without those tools, the killer gets steamrolled — and we’ve seen that era before.Why should the killer be a threat?
Because one survivor’s mistake means instant punishment.
Survivor errors cost more because they weaken the whole team.
For killers, a slip-up just means reposition and try again.
But survivors? One wrong move, and they’re hooked, downed, or manchmal out early.
The killerrole need this.
Because mathematically, one killer alone can only handle so much pressure.
If survivors didn’t make costlier mistakes, their 4-to-1 advantage would always overwhelm the killer.
So the killer’s power has to be stronger to balance the equation — making sure one strong player can still contest four coordinated ones...but..
That’s why so many survivor groups lose.
It only takes one person not doing their “job” to throw everything off.
Mathematically, losing one player in a four-man team cuts your overall effectiveness by at least 25%, while the killer still operates at full strength.
That’s why so many teams fall apart — because even one weak link can break the whole balance.(You really shouldn’t balance this game around the “-25% team value” scenario — which happens way too often (especially in solo queue) when one survivor basically drops out or stops being useful.
That’s why I also agree that many killers still need buffsAnd um, .. idk: the current kill rate is honestly a bad indicator for balance right now — because MMR is so unreliable that in many (if not most) matches you end up with that -25% or even -50% team value situation, where 1 or 2 survivors just drag the whole team down.
That’s why, in my opinion, we desperately need a proper, functional MMR system first — before we even think about doing something like “Operation Health.”its a bit simpler than that - killer is a solo role with more agency for a single player than the team role, therefore killer should statistically be more successful by whichever metric devs choose to use. they choose killrate, therefore killers need to kill more than they let escape.
generally, massive amounts of issues with counterproductive and unclear wincondition, soloq/swf gaps should be addressed not by blanket buffs, but by reworking the way the game fundamentally works in terms of the power balance in 1v4/1v3/1v2/1v1.
right now the game is still functioning as mainly team game with survivors being incredibly strong while in 1v4 and exponentially weaker the more of them die.
the desired curve of escalating player agency can be organically accomplished if killer camps, tunnels and slugs while survivors are chase&gen efficient enough to get a good setup (f/e be at 1-2 gens with some prog) by the time killer claims the first kill.
however this is not really possible organically in normal gameplay for various reasons (mainly massive skillgaps, perks&mechanics specifically made to force killer into counterproductive playstyle, as well as players simply refusing to play against that / like that)
so devs really need to look forward to different ways to make the game feel more fair, rather than keep balancing around the idea survivors are consistently bad at the game they're not allowed to play properly.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976448#Comment_3976448
that just means winning and losing isnt binary.But the moment we agree its not binary, and the moment we see that kills are the same as MMR increases, then the 3k+/win rate goes out the window as a topic of discussion based on the game's metrics or conclude what the percentage of 3k+ games might be.
firstly they do say they never themselvessaidthat killrate equates to winrate in this proportion, that's true, they never claimed that, that's just something you derive from using existing data including the official one.No, they are saying that if you want to use MMR, its kill rate to win rate. If you don't, and they are absolutely fine with you not, then things are up in the air. For the purposes of MMR they needed a 'win' and a 'loss' stat, they went with kills on a 1 to 1 basis with some modifications thrown in for SWF (I don't think anyone knows the exact percentages), then it gets into all the normal MMR stuff.
they're saying in a very polite manner that they are not going to officially define a win con. Same rationale as to why they are not going to reveal MMR altogether despite them using it as their way of balancing matches and determining player's final performance.if this particular metric (mmr system's definition of win) did not matter or mattered as much as others, then it either wouldnt be used for matchmaking or matchmaking wouldve been done based on stages, bloodpoints, emblems or whatever other metric devs imply people should care about1: They used to matchmake off of emblems and quite a few people would like them to go back to it. Back then everyone was able to 'win' within the trial at the same time. This didn't stop people from coming up with their own standards of win or loss.
2: BHVR has a history of pursuing vague win conditions as part of their design philosophy. If you did not play Deathgarden, it was even less clear on what the win con was.
3: I don't know what you mean by 'player's final performance'. BHVR has been clear that MMR is meant to roughly match people up of equal skill. Its not there to give precise definitions of win and loss. Single trials have little impact on your overall MMR score, its a long term matchmaking tool.
4: If you take this as you're only standard to use, a whole segment of the game breaks down when survivors have the gates powered and could just leave, but they go back for a rescue. If MMR was the only thing defining a win or a loss this whole stage of the game makes no sense.
they change the language inside the game from "entity's displeased" to "entity hungers" (i wonder why this change was so warranted, did killers lose this much at that point?)To my understanding its because lots of people ran the BBQ bloodpoint meta and didn't like the idea that they got 6-8 hooks and spread them out, which is what they were going for, but then got a negative message. Playing for blood points and emblems was a much more significant part of the game.
also, draw is not a unique possibility, yet survivors also have it - hatch escape.So I usually don't bring this up because we don't have concrete numbers on hatch escapes and it makes the killer position that 60% KR is somehow balanced even more absurd.
Because if we want to talk hatches, the 40% escape is not 40% survivor wins and killer loses, some of those are draws. So we know the killer is increasing MMR against 60% of the survivors he faces, but of the remaining 40% not all of those are even losses. If a killer is frequently giving hatch instead of pursuing the 4k, its probably their kill rate could double escapes that count as MMR losses.
But the moment we agree its not binary, and the moment we see that kills are the same as MMR increases, then the 3k+/win rate goes out the window as a topic of discussion based on the game's metrics or conclude what the percentage of 3k+ games might be.
No, because there's still a clear distinction and ratio between wins/losses, the quality criteria that distinguishes the 0-1ks and 3-4ks doesnt take away from either being killer loss/win/draw. getting 0k/4k is hard because the game is made in such ways that make getting a pity kill / pity escape way easier, therefore the quality of such wins/losses is higher.
if you tend to win more and better, your mmr will be higher than if you tend to draw/lose as much as you win. same goes for quality of the wins/losses. yeah it's unnecessarily complex but it doesnt take away from the general tendency.
1: They used to matchmake off of emblems and quite a few people would like them to go back to it. Back then everyone was able to 'win' within the trial at the same time. This didn't stop people from coming up with their own standards of win or loss.
yeah, thanks, I know, MMR system does the same thing - survivors can still win at the same time as killer.
3: I don't know what you mean by 'player's final performance'. BHVR has been clear that MMR is meant to roughly match people up of equal skill. Its not there to give precise definitions of win and loss. Single trials have little impact on your overall MMR score, its a long term matchmaking tool.
just like any other similar MMR system? your skill level is derived from a big sample of matches, the more, the better.
4: If you take this as you're only standard to use, a whole segment of the game breaks down when survivors have the gates powered and could just leave, but they go back for a rescue. If MMR was the only thing defining a win or a loss this whole stage of the game makes no sense.
To my understanding its because lots of people ran the BBQ bloodpoint meta and didn't like the idea that they got 6-8 hooks and spread them out, which is what they were going for, but then got a negative message. Playing for blood points and emblems was a much more significant part of the game.
because the game is self contradictory in many ways this one included. objectively, there's no reason to play for rescue, people just do that because it's fun and rewarding.
that's an overarching issue with the game's core design - the game really struggles with making a win condition clear with its own reward systems and the way the game works and devs refuse to communicate that clearly as well, opting to settle for a flawed metric of killer success - killrate.
as you examplified before, 60% killrate can mean killer decently winning 8/10 games and miserably losing 2/10 or having a bunch of 4ks with more draws and losses.
So I usually don't bring this up because we don't have concrete numbers on hatch escapes and it makes the killer position that 60% KR is somehow balanced even more absurd.
in this context it doesnt matter because killer wins regardless of the hatch. it's just an example of how "wins" dont and shouldnt correlate with "kills" as killers can choose to settle on 3ks and get twice as less MMR than they normally would.
that's another general issue - skill disparity between players in the matchmaking, often due to counterproductive playstyles - killers choosing to let survivors escape through hatch cuz they dont feel like sweating for it, survivors throwing the game by trying to help the teammate get an out when they by all means should just leave and win.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976278#Comment_3976278
it doesnt matter, the sample is big enough to extrapolate general tendency.If a sample is drawn from a non-representative source, the size of the sample is irrelevant.
is anofficialdefinition of the win in the only system that directly specifies a win, loss and a drawIf you want to say MMR is your standard for wins than kill rate = win rate.
If you play ten trials and kill 24 survivors (60%), it doesn't matter whether that was six 4ks and four 0ks, eight 3ks and two 0ks, or three 4ks, three 2ks, or four 1ks - you get the same MMR.
Here's a dev talking about it with my highlighting
"I can clarify a bit. I'm not sure where the 60% kill rate = 50% win rate bit comes from, but I don't recall it being said by us. We don't tend to talk about "win rates" because a win is still somewhat subjective. Some people count a pip as a win, others if they get 3 kills, some even consider only 4 kills as a win. If we're talking about solely kills, kill rate and win rate are equal.
Thread here:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591335#Comment_3591335
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976365#Comment_3976365
Well, its generalizing probabilities without taking game design into account which is a combination of a logic error and a math error.
The extremes are relatively easy to draw. Let's say a killer played a 100 matches and faced 400 survivors. For a 60% kill rate they need to kill 240 survivors. For the sake of simplicity I'll go with the nomenclature of a 3k+ being a 'win'.
The high end of the spectrum: 80% win rate via 80 3ks and 20 0ks.
The low end of the spectrum: 20% win rate via 20 4ks and 80 2ks.
Both of those result in the same kill rate with vastly different win rates.
Obviously, those are extremes and not what actually happens in game. So what does happen in game? Where does the game actually fall within those ranges? No one knows for certain and believing it can be concluded decisively via math is huge mistake. To actually derive a win rate from the kill rate you'd need more data on how common the different outcomes are. For example, from logic and data its reasonable to conclude that 2ks are a pretty rare result, to make up that offset 3ks and 4ks have to be increased, but how much is uncertain.
Nightlight has a lot of problems, as I mentioned in this post already, but they are one of our few sources of data. Going off their historical data win rate tends to be 5 to 8 points lower than the kill rate (it varies by killer).
And on top of all the mistakes that get made, even the most general assumptions on the killer side, it frequently gets limited to comparing win rates, while the killer would have a far lower loss rate than survivors because within this framework the killer has the unique possibility of a draw.
If you play ten trials and kill 24 survivors (60%), it doesn't matter whether that was six 4ks and four 0ks, eight 3ks and two 0ks, or three 4ks, three 2ks, or four 1ks - you get the same MMR.
this is more a showcase of how valueable are 4ks and how devastating are 0ks compared to 3ks and 1ks because you lose/gain way more mmr for (in)complete kill/out counts. its -4/-2/0/+2/+4 when each kill is either a plus or minus point.
that just means winning and losing isnt binary.
my bad for dumbing it down but the general point still stands. gain towards mmr = win, loss towards mmr = loss, no progress = draw.
"I can clarify a bit. I'm not sure where the 60% kill rate = 50% win rate bit comes from, but I don't recall it being said by us. We don't tend to talk about "win rates" because a win is still somewhat subjective. Some people count a pip as a win, others if they get 3 kills, some even consider only 4 kills as a win.
If we're talking about solely kills, kill rate and win rate are equal."
great quote. firstly they do say they never themselves said that killrate equates to winrate in this proportion, that's true, they never claimed that, that's just something you derive from using existing data including the official one.
secondly, they say "win is still somewhat subjective". pay attention to this, they're saying in a very polite manner that they are not going to officially define a win con. Same rationale as to why they are not going to reveal MMR altogether despite them using it as their way of balancing matches and determining player's final performance.
obviously you can cling on this with all your might and go in full denial that if they never said it outloud then it doesnt count and win can be anything up to my sinister's 4 injury wincon and that killers are entitled for acting like this wincon is not enough. but let's be real, if this particular metric (mmr system's definition of win) did not matter or mattered as much as others, then it either wouldnt be used for matchmaking or matchmaking wouldve been done based on stages, bloodpoints, emblems or whatever other metric devs imply people should care about.
i think it's pretty apparent that devs are very afraid of making killer and survivor players upset about losing. they change the language inside the game from "entity's displeased" to "entity hungers" (i wonder why this change was so warranted, did killers lose this much at that point?), they avoid showing MMR at all costs and so on. So just because they're afraid of saying something outloud in order not to upset the community or give bullies ammo, doesnt mean it's not the case.
finally look at the way they worded it. "If we are talking solely about kills". We arent and we shouldnt. Even by your own examples, killer is not losing MMR because killer loses less than he wins.
also, draw is not a unique possibility, yet survivors also have it - hatch escape. they can lose the match from game design standpoint - fail main objective and still avoid losing MMR by getting through hatch. the stats dont showcase hatch escape % but lets just assume its about 1/3rds of the recorded 3ks.
in most killer games at least one survivor is going to win or at least draw.
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funny to see this in context of multiple massive exploits going rampant
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
There will never be an operational health patch because the devs refuse to balance out the overpowered killers that they've left in the game for years. In any other balanced PvP game, Blight and Nurse would not exist.
gotta love the balancing around "thermonuclear bomb-nurse vs 4 coughing solo q babies" match up so fair and killer sided
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976255#Comment_3976255
Hasn't this math been disproven multiple times, or is that some other math I'm thinking of?
you'd need to elaborate on this.
i dont recall anyone else bring up the difference between kills and wins or 60% killrate ~ 50% winrate being disproven in context of MMR system counting 3ks as a win.
you can also see the numbers yourself and the other guy was kind enough to give me more evidence by bringing up other official 0-4k distribution %s which amounted to similar results.
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@Vrose29 said:
With the 4% thing I stand by they should've allowed a set # of 4% attempts (like 2 since it was 3) that doesn't take from your health bar (unlike before). Then after your attempts you just hang like you do currently. However, they should fix it so that if all people are down you can try to 4%. There's been games I didn't get to try because by the time I was 1 of 2 people left I had gone second stage while waiting for people to die. I would love to read other people's thoughts or other ideas :)
do you understand that the point of getting to 2nd stage by cobeing was to discourage people from just trying for free unhook anytime they get unhooked and only resort to it when they're losing anyway?
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976301#Comment_3976301
your "win" condition is your abstract standard of an outcome you are personally happy with. it is not an objective measure of how easy/hard it is for a killer to kill a survivor or the skill it takes for one role to counter the other. this is why BHVR published kill and escape rates, not "win" rates.
you are tiring to talk to because you are being given definitive proof of your being wrong which you proceed to blatantly deny. I think I'd have more fun discussing science with a flatearther, at least those show fantasy with their denial.
Read this for once, specifically the "general ratings" tab.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976255#Comment_3976255
Nightlight stats have been way, way off since at least the abandon feature was implemented. Mandy even confirmed that on these forums.
Nightlight in particular has been counting the abandons as escapes and artificially lowers the kill rate on that site as a result.
The stats for about 3 years before "abandon" were consistently about 35% 0-1k, 50% 3-4k, and about 15% 2k.
Which, honestly having killers "win" about 50% more often than survivors is also about what you'd expect from a base goal of having survivors die 50% more than escaping. Which is exactly what a 60% kill rate, and this 40% escape rate is.
Everything about DbD is slanted toward killers currently, kills, wins, and balance in general. And the devs have outright said that's the design goal. Not balance, deliberately for a "horror feel" and because they picked an arbitrary number to chase.
im not surprised you only picked on the nightlight and didnt look at the only official definition of the wincondition (skill-based matchmaking) that my whole point is based on and proceeded to make a point that survivors not 3 outing or more is a loss to them somehow.
not only that, but you've literally proven me right by bringing up more data prior to lots of killer nerfs that showcases the killer winrate being around 50%.
devs surely said they want killers to be a threat and kill more than they let escape, however this has nothing to do with the reality of how the target killrate correlates with winrates.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976278#Comment_3976278
It is disingenuous to balance around this definition because a killer doesn't need a 3K "win" for the game balance to favor killer role. If a killer plays 4 matches, and the results are 2K, 1K, 3K, and 4K, he has sacrificed the majority of survivors that he has played against (10/16, 63%). That is objectively balanced in favor of killer role. But your definition would entail he only "wins" half/50% of his matches, and therefore would erroneously conclude that the game is perfectly balanced for both sides, when in actuality it is significantly easier for killer. Expand the sample size to include all matches from the entire player base and the same obfuscation applies.
almost as if sacrificing a person =/= win, you need to sacrifice multiple.
almost as if this game is assymetric and has harder wincon for killer which therefore means that getting through steps to it should be easier than the entire wincon for the survivor.
you'd make a shred of sense if survivors only won if they got 3-4 out. this is evidently not the case unless the only actual definition of the wincon changes to indicate that. everything else is your fantasies.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976264#Comment_3976264
I don't know why you bothered replying.
Literally all of their posts are Us vs Them bait.
yes, all you do with such people is call out their lies and bull #########
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976255#Comment_3976255
Nightlight kill rates are unreliable and not official data. Anyone can submit whatever numbers they want. Kill rates in official data are very likely underestimated since DC matches are excluded, and many, many steamroll 4K matches involve a player or two DCing out of frustration.
The game is balanced around kill and escape rates. Your personal definition of "win" is unnecessary and obfuscates the fact that killers are succeeding at their primary objective (killing) more than survivors succeed at theirs (escaping).
it doesnt matter, the sample is big enough to extrapolate general tendency.
"my personal definition of win" is an official definition of the win in the only system that directly specifies a win, loss and a draw while everything else is using the most sterile and PC language possible just to avoid making people feel bad that they lost.
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i love how 60%killrate=killer OP adepts dont realize that 60% killrate means slightly less than 50% winrate for the killer if we go by the only metric devs have for the win - MMR system and win being 3/4k.
meanwhile according to this very system survivors win anytime they escape in exit gates and draw if they get hatch. there are multipliers, but win is a win for that system regardless.
it's not "1v1v1v1v1" like you'd like to claim, it's 1v4 for killer where they only win if they kill 3/4+ survivors and 1v1 for the survivor.
so yeah, killrates do need to be 60%, even slightly above to average into proper winrate for killer.
on a side note, here's the only available big sample of data on kill count distribution. ~45% killer winrate. I think real average stats would be closer to 48-52% at best, hardly more.
how many of these 3ks the survivor made it in exit gates? I think a decent amount, but Im not going to make any conclusions, just some food for thought.
survs win way more than they'd like to claim.
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@Skillfulstone said:
I mean, even without the aura, it's a hard counter to any exhaustion perk if the Survivor uses the vial before or at the start of the chase.
I honestly don't think that Fog vials's best use is for chases unless you build around it and/or get lucky and be on an indoor map.
It's very good for covering a recently unhooked teammate from a back-to-hook-Andy (Pop the vial just before or after unhook and the unhooked Survivor can make some distance without scratch marks or noise) or to use as a worse version of old Distortion (when it was still worth using) when you deduce aura perks (Pop the vial just before a teammate gets hooked to block BBQ, or Friends till the End if you're the obsession for example).
if you pop fog vial when killer is at some distance and then just go wide around them they'll have really hard time seeing you and going after you while you unzone yourself / drop chase
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976118#Comment_3976118
In a way, it still would counter fog vials. Some people are running Iron will to facilitate escaping through the fog. Overwhelming counters that strategy at least.
some value at least yea