SpringMyTrap
SpringMyTrap
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4 months of it btw
they really should add new content to it retroactively or figure something out cuz it is just bad
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@Mandy said:
Off the Record was always on our list for changes, even without the tunneling solutions tested, we were aware on how the perk was able to be weaponised and felt that 80s Endurance was a pretty long length of time, it's part of why when adding it back, we've halved the duration so it is still strong in a situation where a player is being tunneled but it will be in a healthier position which won't allow it to be weaponised in the same way.
can you consider going back to 80s no endurance version and just buffing it? or at least separating the endurance from the secondary effects?
reworked 80s OTR felt really great with how much it helped you to stealth and avoid being found after someone else got chased down.
long endurance is too abuseable, but other effects felt genuinely fine imo because they only worked as a passive defense.
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@ProfessorAutodidact said:
When I first read the perk I thought what it does is if you injured, you hit X great skillchecks and then you get fully healed. Now that would be still bit niche but decent and interesting perk!
Current version is terrible, even if you buff the numbers it would be bad. Just run any passive healing perk.
if it worked like this, it would be insanely OP.
It`d basically be a perk equivalent of a syringe.
I think the effect it needed was just enabling self healing at a bit reduced rate like 70-80%.
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@OrangeBear said:
I mean we did get quality of life to be fair. Abandon option, bulk bloodpoint spending, mouse and keyboard on console. But they haven't delivered on "bug fixes for long standing issues" and the game has got worse on this front.
And yeah, about the cosmetics, idk whats going on, they are the worst they've ever been. Choosing some of the most unpopular characters for the halloween event rewards and a plain awful rift.I dont even think they can actually deliver that unless they fully recode the game which they dont seem to be able to do.
allegedly, they're slowly recoding it on C++ or something like that, but so far it doesnt seem to yield visible results.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012038#Comment_4012038
you have essentially made any argument void based on your 1 statement admitting not all killers are designed to win against good teams. how to gain pressure is irrelevant because you yourself have admitted they are not designed to win, which means no amount of pressure via map or gens or powers is enough….they are simply not designed to win. You said it. therefore your entire argument of apply pressure is non existent.
"game is not balanced for good team"
"yOu hAvE MaDe yOuR aRguMeNt vOiD"buddy, half of the killers in this game are conceptually and fundamentally weak. they're way too easy to pick up, use and have such low potential in comparison to other killers that making them keep up vs top 1% survivor players means making them completely unfair against the rest 99%.
it's a genuine delusion to demand the game to be balanced around these players and have every killer being able to keep up at that point.
if they have the potential in their design and their balance allows them to, they can do that, otherwise PLAY SOMETHING ELSE or DEAL WITH IT.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011995#Comment_4011995
killers like pyramid head with strong anti loop helps gets downs but it doesnt help gen pressure when the gen is on the opposite side of the map. 4 players, 1 hooked, killer can waste time traveling the map to kick someone off a gen which the gen will most likely already be done by that point. get a hook but lose a gen regardless.
trickster and bubba relies on the team being together to actually do anything which i remind you we are talking about GOOD teams v these killers. a good team wont clump together like that.
knight is designed to tunnel and camp and has ability to pressure gens without actually being there
chucky is awful at pressuring gens and very easy to counter, especially on wide open maps where stealth isn't an option
pinhead i agree has a power that can create pressure but i would say killers like this are the outlier to the rule, generally speaking fast speedy killers can pressure easier than slow killers
Nemesis and deathslinger are another 2 that lack speed and have no power to pressure gens.
you said it yourself, "most killers arent even designed to have enough potential for winning against good enough players unless they throw". yes they can win v average players, but this is about good teams, teams that know how to play, teams that dont make many mistakes. these killers just cant compete which is why people tunnel and slug…to try even things out. you have just said my exact point.
do you understand how you get map / gen pressure?
yea, map mobility helps a lot, yet it's not the only way to apply pressure. it's always about making people busy anyhow.
it's not inherently related to map mobility, map mobility simply enables more commonly accepted playstyles, yet the game isn't limited to "commit to chase, hook, ######### off somewhere else for a new chase".
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@DefiajaKennec said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011995#Comment_4011995
Delusional. Your parents need to take your internet privileges away.
im just better :)
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While I think they need to nerf her more, I kinda dislike how one thing she has interesting macro potential in (mushroom management) is just irrelevant because they respawn regardless of you using the head form.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011983#Comment_4011983
like i said the list goes on, there are many more killers with no speed and no means of teleport. if 2 people are working on gens on the opposite side of the map, i truly would love to know how you intend to pressure the gens…. kick one off, chase, the other will do the gen by the time the killer gets a down and there is nothing the killer can do about it because it takes so long to get there even if they tried to kick them off.
i dont think the game should be balanced around the bottom 5 killers or top 5, im just pointing out that your statement of "if your applying enough pressure" and then trying to use a teleport killer to show how it can be done is flawed when there are an abundance of killers that simply cant apply pressure because they lack the speed/teleport ability to do so.
and like I said, most killers make up for that with something else.
Pyramid Head has no map mobility and he gets one of the best ways to secure stages / kills & one of the strongest midrange antiloop power in the game amongst similar killers.
Chucky gets very easy and oppressive chase power with multiple different abilities including his own size.
Knight can multitask and pressure different survivors.
Pinhead, if we are being fair and not counting box tp as map mobility, can stall the whole team from doing anything if he pulls off box logic well.
Trickster or Bubba can shred the whole team if they happen to group up together with them being close.
tHe lIsT gOeS oN aNd oN.
dbd isnt balanced for esports and most killers arent even designed to have enough potential for winning against good enough players unless they throw. in hands of average player against average survivors even the weakest killers are doing pretty well if you are willing to put effort and skill. it doesnt matter changes arent needed, but you're lying to yourself if they are incapable of applying pressure and winning games.
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I find them to be really boring.
They trivialize the chases so much and their balance is in how slow they are at securing hooks / 2 tapping people so they need to play in a macro heavy-slugging playstyle which I dont think is fun.
I like opportunistic sluggers more like oni/singu/plague though i only mainly play singularity for unrelated reasons. it's more enjoyable to actually play chase, interact with survivors and outplay them in 1v1s rather than play fully 1v4 that never feels fair unless you're vs a coordinated team at which point your chances of being outperked are getting exponentially higher.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011973#Comment_4011973
1.trapper, 0 speed, very limited anti loop if any.
2. myers, 0 speed, 0 anti loop
3. doctor, 0 speed, somewhat has anti loop but not if people predrop.
4.bubba, 0 speed, 0 anti loop. basically useless v vaults.
5.pig, 0 speed, 0 anti loop and useless on big open maps.
the list goes on. if we are talking about pressuring gens, these killers struggle simply because they are slow and cant teleport from 1 end of the map to the other to kick someone off a gen. speed/teleport killers have a much easier time applying pressure, they just as lethal, if not more so and they have the speed.
cool, you've mentioned 5 killers, let's add skull merchant to the list, who are all notoriously bad and need to be reworked.
if you're trying to argue the whole game needs to be balanced around these killers, you're just as bad as people who try to force the game to be balanced around top 5 killers.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011969#Comment_4011969
Xenonhas map mobility that most killers don’t have
more than half of the killers in the game have map mobility and others make up for by higher lethality / better utility in comparison to their counterparts in the same weight group.
i think you're just looking for excuses here.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011956#Comment_4011956
Can you show us how to do this with mid- to low-tier killers?
is xeno good enough for you?
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I dont think gen speeds are a problem if you're applying enough pressure.
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@Crowman said:
BHVR isn't going to better balance the game by throwing out the ptb anti-tunnel/slugging system. What would happen is BHVR sees that the only killers who can compete are Nurse/Blight/Ghoul/Krasue level and we start seeing more killers that strong. When really the problem with DBD is the power level of the strongest stuff is too high and needs to be brought down. DBD matches should be less about who wins in the first 5 minutes and be more of a slow build up like a horror movie.
exactly.
we dont want blight by daylight.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011551#Comment_4011551
If survivors use brain and make good turret placements in good places with strong perks and great gen effiency then xeno is toasted, he has great antiloop (chase power) but at the cost of very strong counterplay (turrets) which can slow him down or get him out of his power and hinder him enough for survivors to get even or upper hand.
If xenomorph uses brain and makes good plays to zone survivors from reaching said turrets and doesnt miss the tail, then there are no problems.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011529#Comment_4011529
oh now we're twisting my words to form a strawman that's easy to argue against, lmao.
Then do.
you'd see that these things will go live eventually.
At an undisclosed point in time. The last time they tried anti-camp and it got booed off the stage, it took them literal years before they tried anything again. We're still waiting on Skull Merchant and Twins reworks. 'A future patch' could be next patch, but is more likely on a longer term schedule. The +10 seconds hook timer that was supposed to come with 6.1 to counterbalance the longer gens and not have that be a strict buff to camping took 'em two years. Are we gonna have two years straight of killers being designed for anti-tunnel before we actually get said anti-tunnel? Do you think that that is their plan?
Or they dont and then we're going to see these two getting actual nerfs.
See, that's the interesting thing that you also didn't address: Krasue was tested on PTB with the anti-tunnel/slug changes. We then didn't get the anti-tunnel/slug changes, but they did buff the hell out of Krasue moving from PTB to live.
IF what you're saying is true and the reason Krasue is this overtuned is because of the anti-tunnel changes that didn't come in, wouldn't it make infinitely more sense to, when they realised they weren't going to push the anti-tunnel, leave Krasue as is and not buff the hell out of her in response to a patch that is not happening?
devs are clearly incapable of making drastic sweeping changes overnight
That's nonsense too, considering all the other changes they made and have made in the past. They have no problem making 'drastic sweeping changes' on the short term, and this PTB, if anything, proves that to be the case!
>At an undisclosed point in time. The last time they tried anti-camp and it got booed off the stage, it took them literal years before they tried anything again
good
>We're still waiting on Skull Merchant and Twins reworks. 'A future patch' could be next patch, but is more likely on a longer term schedule. The +10 seconds hook timer that was supposed to come with 6.1 to counterbalance the longer gens and not have that be a strict buff to camping took 'em two years. Are we gonna have two years straight of killers being designed for anti-tunnel before we actually get said anti-tunnel? Do you think that that is their plan?
no, I think that's their incompetence and/or inability to properly communicate. Logically, +10 seconds nerf happened so late because they didnt initially think it would've been necessary and gathered data to make a decision. They made it sound like they just forgot to add it right away. So either they're unable to communicate properly or they are actually incompetent and self reporting.
Either way it doesn't contradict what Im saying, they're either painfully slow at making decisions or have delayed reaction.
>Krasue was tested on PTB with the anti-tunnel/slug changes. We then didn't get the anti-tunnel/slug changes, but they did buff the hell out of Krasue moving from PTB to live.
No, I quite literally did. Krasue was buffed because she was NOT GOOD ENOUGH with these changes. If they are planning to go through and are already halfway done coding that, why not proceed? If people get mad, devs roll out a bunch of placebo nerfs like they did to ghoul and they'll have an easier time selling the systems to the community later.
Either incompetence or slow decisionmaking.
There's also multiple other factors like the fact they still need to sell the chapter and NERFING the killer people ALREADY perceived as "clunky/bad" wouldnt make a good case. It's not just one thing, it's multiple.
>IF what you're saying is true and the reason Krasue is this overtuned is because of the anti-tunnel changes that didn't come in, wouldn't it make infinitely more sense to, when they realised they weren't going to push the anti-tunnel, leave Krasue as is and not buff the hell out of her in response to a patch that is not happening?
IF the changes aren't actually coming in and not just delayed. Again, bigger picture, at least within a year which is slightly more than their development cycle IIRC.
Look at Singularity and his update. It was planned to ship somewhere in late 2023, but was promptly delayed and instead we've had Skull merchant 2.0 with 8 kick system / AFC. Then he got updated almost a year later and the changes he's got didnt involve any actual nerfs to 3 genning (unless you count camera CD skip exploit that got fixed w/o a patchnote) and a QoL that cut the camping punishment by 4 seconds. Something tells me if they didnt choose to go for the fundamental design change and opted to balance killers individually w/o external bottleneck, Singularity would've been nerfed badly.
>That's nonsense too, considering all the other changes they made and have made in the past. They have no problem making 'drastic sweeping changes' on the short term, and this PTB, if anything, proves that to be the case!
You just gave examples of them being unable to make quick decisions / changes.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011525#Comment_4011525
He is easier to outplay than nemesis because he can be doged or juked more easily than nemesis (you can drag his hitbox but its way less powerfull than nemesis drag), turrets are still strong if you place two close to each other on strong loops and chained loops which forces xeno to destroy them and go to tunnel to get power back if he doesnt want to play as super tall m1 killer. Turrets on hills are rare but they happen way more than before his patch came up (because everyone and more specific content creators told how to place turrets which was very rare to get before because he was in top 5 least played killers in the game), the second floors with holes work same as hills for some reason its even more rare than hill turrets but same outcome.
Loosing with xeno isnt nothing hard becasue he has strong antiloop with quite effective counterplay (like old emp which force killer to get his power back and loose time and preasure only difference is turrets cant be used so effectively in chase by chased or other survivors so easily as old emps), his mobility isnt bad but not great either and his tracking is great but for me he is more b-tier killer now than a-tier because he has too many flaws to be a-tier killer compare to killer who is simular like nemesis, he is same like springtrap I would say.
that's just wrong, you need to do better with this killer.
xenomorph has insanely oppressive and consistent chase power if you know the hit timings to prefire. if you knew how utilize it properly and understand how to deal with turrets, you would not be making these claims.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011393#Comment_4011393
I was aware of that. But if a turret ever caught you by surprise the addon made your reaction time to it much higher, making it feel like a strong addon, while everything else in the list was so minor that i usually just used nothing but that addon and the brown egg addon that makes the tail come back faster. With those 2 alone i barely felt a need to even experiment with the others. Now i like using the one that lets you see footsteps farther while in tunnels and the brown egg still.
try cereal rations, really nice addon to help with map awareness & turret placements.
brown egg is nice too, however I personally prefer not to get burnt out in the first place.
before the patch my go-to combo have either been the sloppy butcher addons or vaulting speed addon, with occasional use of footsteps range.
rn I dont think that changed much, maybe im using vaulting speed & range the most over sloppy addons cuz they're just too powercrept with vigil meta.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011393#Comment_4011393
That addon was neede into basekit but xeno got weaker for two main reasons even there were more buffs in that patch compare to nerfs, first reason is his tail got solid buff and is way easier to doge than nemesis whip and fov techs when you jump into xeno when he is about to use his tail is super effective, second reason xeno is weaker now than before on average is because he got takled about and became for short time solid topic for many content creators that revealed how to place his turrets which was something some survivors have no clue how to place them effectively (two near each other mean he is out of power no mather what he will do and placing one near strong loop or hill is now way more common which makes them bigger threat than before when most survivors place them just near tunnel exit).
Ive been playing xeno since the changes and he doesnt feel weaker.
double turrets are generally useless unless you're already losing the game badly. CCs yapping about "correct turret usage" did not change anything in my games. Just because more people know how to use them right does not change the fact I know how to play around them and minimize the impact - zone people to edgemap, cut them off and deal with turrets in the downtime/before I commit to a chase.
Worst case scenario you can always just tank the setup and reset your power in 10 seconds while getting a reposition. It's not a big deal unless, as I mentioned, you're already losing the game.
Turrets on hills are rare because hills arent common and even less common with a tunnel nearby. Getting that setup w/o good RNG is a massive time sink that benefits me way more than it benefits them.
0.1 wind up increase took time to get used to, but it's generally a nonissue and it overall accomplishes the opposite - gives more time to react to survivor dodging the hit and secure it. the only times it's a problem is when you need to get a hit in a very tight timing, f/e in predropped shack after vaulting the window when you cannot prefire, but even now it's doable with the addon / survivor ######### up the checkspot.
cooldown decrease was a massive buff that nerfed correct turret usage by ~20% of the distance value and it also gave xeno slightly better 2 tapping potential.
overall xenomorph just got sidegraded at worst and still is a strong low A tier if you have the skills.
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011393#Comment_4011393
No you could not. Unless we have a different definition of the word "fine".
we clearly do and yours is wrong.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I recall xeno needed 1 addon in particular every time to not instantly be burnt out from turrets, so they just nerfed it, and made it harder to be burnt out from turrets basekit. The rest of the addons got adjustments but dont do anything new lol
that addon's value was largely overrated.
It was nice to see it in basekit as a compensation for nerfs, but you could deal with turrets just fine w/o it back then.
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oh no oni gets 3 more orbs per hook which amounts to 5 orbs or roughly 12.5% of the power overall, that's so much, oh no..
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@TheBubbaMain2003 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010773#Comment_4010773
They added already much worse thing that Anti Tunneling & Slugging system from PTB. They just made every map having 20-30 Pallets. It does not fix anythinh. It just makes this game even more easier for Survivors. Weaker Killers are punished even more than Anti Tunnel Changes from PTB.
For people reading this. I wanted Anti Tunnel system from PTB. (with some changes of course). It would increase the health of the game.
health of the game by shifting balance focus to killers like krasue/ghoul as default? you do realize this is how it's going to work, right?
pallet density was made because it was part of them balancing for these killers, you know that, right?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010894#Comment_4010894
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011247#Comment_4011247
But alas, baby survivors refuse to get good vs other killers playing optimally
What can I even say at this point?
incredible way of arguing, you might as well just quote individual words and smugly say "what did I say" and have the echochamber upvote you nonetheless.
actually, please do that, you seem petty enough to do that when pissy about not being able to argue back
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@DeeBeeDeeAddict said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011020#Comment_4011020
You've offered absolutely nothing of substance. You're just doomposting and saying, "We shouldn't change anything about tunneling or slugging, OR ELSE you'll face nothing but Blights. You don't want that!!!"
The game is already that for many of us. You're talking like this is some zero-sum game where we can't have an anti-tunneling/anti-slugging system in place while ALSO balancing some killers.You sticking your head in the sand and saying, "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas" doesn't help anybody.
Get offline. Adults are talking.
are these adults here in the room with us, mr adultman? im only seeing people throwing a fit about being killed in a videogame about killers and beating themselves in a chest about how adult they are which is the most immature thing one can imagine.
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
So from my perspective (97/3% killer main) I think some changes need to be made, this is completely unbiased as I hardly ever touch survivor in fact I have over 1100 in game hours on killer and only 99 on survivor.
So we all can agree that hard tunneling combined with camping/proxy at 5 gens can and do win games that's an undeniable truth. We see then stats of 80+ KR daily, the win streaks daily, and what they all have in common. If hard tunneling wasn't as strong as it is then you wouldn't have so many people staunchly defending it while refusing to admit these things wouldn't be possible without it.
I do in fact think the 1st iteration was over kill from the perspective of someone who rarely if ever tunnels. 6 hooks and all gens being blocked was crazy. I feel like 4 is more reasonable due to the fact that someone dead at 4 hooks is without a doubt hard tunneling.
The BK tenacity wasnt needed. The 90 secs slug prevention in my eyes was fine I mean come on outside of end game why in the world are you slugging for that long.
The perks of not tunneling were kinda meh but also good as you actually got a basekit benefit for going unique hooks, which if you already did you got nothing for so it was just a straight up buff.
I do think removing tunneling entirely would make killer extremely unbearable and most of the vets would probably drop it. As it stands tunneling has never been truly addressed and I think it's time we actually see how the game would fair with a bit of it's power stripped away, you can doom post all day long but no one actually knows exactly how it would play out. Making straw man arguements definitely isn't the way to go.
the best ways they can make dealing with tunnelling easier is adding things like elusive status effect and removing unhook notification (just the notification, not the whole UI obstruction failure they've made)
a lot of problematic tunnelling happens because killers autopilot back to the notification and fresh unhook can't really get away because they're injured and leave scratchmarks.
raising skill floor for implementing the strategy and lowering the skill floor for dealing with it is a good way to make it less frustrating without compromising the fundamental balance/design approach.
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@Clevarz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011020#Comment_4011020
I think both need to be taken in to consideration to be fair the killers aren't the only thing that needs to be tweaked as the more they release the more the likely the outcome is going to be the same
well they can keep releasing springtraps and unknowns (great killers btw, both my secondary mains despite my gripes with them) with occasional blights/singularities that would only be recognized months or years after enough people finally get good with them.
or they can keep releasing krasues and ghouls, killers so painfully strong AND easy that playing them feels like watching the movie with how much they play the game for you.
knowing them, they're going to ######### up either way, the only difference is if they're going to put the latter in line or not. If not, then we'll have to deal with anti systems as a blanket solution.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010773#Comment_4010773
I'd like to have actual balance discussions instead of this bullshit "the game will die" every single time.
Zero constructive feedback for how to actually improve on the problem, let alone fix it, while avoiding these self proclaimed "catastrophies".
We can't even have a meaningful discussion because of doom posts like this that just serve to derail useful conversation about it.
Why should I recite that over and over to have people like the other guy screech im making ######### up? Oh no, krasue/ghoul (and clown sidegrade by an extension) totally didnt happen in relation of these systems, these are TOTALLY isolated cases of devs hating their players and wanting to make them miserable and totally not committing to a different formula of appeasing casual players that refuse to learn playing the game.
Idc enough, Ill just keep it short and laugh when people like OP who are dreaming of "being free" will end up "under new management". Same for people typing novels about "krasue feeling like the only real killer". Have fun, Im going to be winning either way.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010894#Comment_4010894
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here.
That is absolutely how things work here. Every bit of killer powercreep has been met with survivors being told to 'get good'. Complaints about tunnelling get met with 'just loop for 5 gens, 4head'.
Every single killer buff gets forgotten by the end of the week they're released and then we're back to footstomping on the forums, demanding more killer buffs. This is absolutely how things have been working for the past couple of years.
if they remove killer's macroplay that is vital for equal skill performance
Tunnelling is the absolute lowest level of macroplay that any bot could figure out. This argument always tries to present some kind of grand strategic choice but ultimately always comes down to 'just tunnel 24/7 lol'.
you can already see it with ghoul/krasue fundamental design - unavoidable free hit + freest catch up / mobility in the game + scamper for ghoul or unmindgameable / uncounterable head/body form powers with slow burn free tag, scamper and catch up.
Ghoul got released before anti-tunnel's design was even on the table. You think they released a killer designed around anti-tunnel, months before their first attempt at anti-tunnel?
This is defeatism for argument's sake, where there's a hope that they're the way they are because of the anti-tunnel, because then you can claim that anti-tunnel is the cause. Sadly, though, both of these released without anti-tunnel, one of them long before anti-tunnel, so it's more likely that BHVR just keeps powercreeping killers, and anti-tunnel has nothing to do with it.
Also, we didn't get anti-tunnel, but we did get Ghoul and Krasue, so the threat of getting broken overpowered killers is kind of moot by now. The reversal of the anti-tunnel changes did not see these two get adjusted in any way, so the choice is basically 'get all the alleged drawbacks of the anti-tunnel without the anti-tunnel' or 'get all the alleged drawbacks of the anti-tunnel with the anti-tunnel', and that's a very easy choice to make.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011098#Comment_4011098
The doom posts are a real concern though, and they aren’t there to derail conversations.
They are absolutely there to derail conversations. Just in the post quoted, they refer to an 'inevitable' compensation or killer design change that will make the game much less enjoyable.
Given we've had one (1) iteration of this system, this is just absolute doomposting without any constructive criticism or logical underpinning. It's got 'We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas' energy to it.
It's declaring the problem unsolvable, not because of a genuine belief that it is, but because it's a problem they don't want solved.
> Every bit of killer powercreep has been met with survivors being told to 'get good'.
Im not wasting my time on this immature game of counting "who gets it worse"
I understand that you werent here since first year and dont remember OP ######### killers could crutch on, but Im not going to take the role of educating you on it.
Killer role's only "powercreep" was in getting more alternatives, if that's how you define powercreep, you're compromising your entire point so badly, I am going to consider not wasting my time on you any further.
>Tunnelling is the absolute lowest level of macroplay that any bot could figure out. This argument always tries to present some kind of grand strategic choice but ultimately always comes down to 'just tunnel 24/7 lol'.
If you actually took time to understand what Im talking about instead of yapping and knee jerk reacting to dogwhistles, you'd understand Im not saying that tunnelling is some kind of a high skill grand strategy or whatever strawman you made up here.
Tunnelling is the easiest / most consistent strategy that exists for casual killers to rely on and get their 60% killrate in the game balanced around said casual players (not killers in particular, I hope you're clever enough to recognize that devs arent actually either side biased) with the general killer design being fair / counterplay / medium strength level killers in that skill bracket. Any anomalies tend to happen either because devs didnt expect the killer to be so good in hands of players like you, in which case they promptly nerf that killer or killer's high capabilities are not an issue in the skill bracket they're balancing for, therefore they wont be a high priority issue - every S tier killer ever.
If you take away tunnelling which, amongst all other things, is the strategy casual killers rely on (and you will have to cope with le bad and casual killers, just like they cope with le bad and casual survivors) and force these people to do 2-3 times more work for the killrates, you end up with krasue/ghoul as default killer balance and judging by the fact these two not only didnt get any marginal nerfs but also got BUFFED and only insignificantly nerfed later on.
If you're content with dealing with these killers - I can only wish you the best and make sure not to regret it, but if not, you're not different than a sheep voting for the wolf.
>Ghoul got released before anti-tunnel's design was even on the table. You think they released a killer designed around anti-tunnel, months before their first attempt at anti-tunnel?
Rofl, lmao even.
Do you know how long they cook that #########? Like, do you have at least a slight idea? Or do you think they make patches from scratch in those 3 weeks in-between? To give you simple example, they were ALREADY PROMISING these systems (just nothing concrete) BEFORE the ghoul was even revealed.
And obviously, as I explained above, Ghoul's insane power has a different, not mutually excluding, explanation - devs' gross incompetence in estimating killer's power level because unlike other sanely developed games that often consider the full potential of something, DbD's balance is based on mediocre players which are insane wildcards in terms of how good they get with the newer killer or against them. The only thing defining the intention is how devs proceeded with addressing his issues.
They easily could've said that slide cancel is an exploit or that they didnt anticipate that and will nerf cancel more to account for that, they could've cancelled scamper buff, but all they did was add an insignificant token penalty while keeping Kaneki to be A+ Legion equivalent in terms of difficulty. Use your head and connect the dots, human brains are known to have pattern recognition ability.
>Also, we didn't get anti-tunnel, but we did get Ghoul and Krasue, so the threat of getting broken overpowered killers is kind of moot by now
And in that case those two would've got skull merchant treatment that they deserve as killers who do not deserve most of the strength they have in their kits. But alas, baby survivors refuse to get good vs other killers playing optimally so they're getting anti tunnel and baby killers will get a different way to autopilot the game by playing on these new killers and ######### on solo qers.
But recognizing that apparently means to be a biased survivor main. Oh wait, biased killer main, because that's what you're effectively accusing me of here, my apologies, Im lost in these accusations from different bad players being mad at truth.
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@DeeBeeDeeAddict said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010773#Comment_4010773
Buddy… it's already Blight, Nurse, Krasue, Ghoul nonstop in my games without anti-slugging/anti-tunnel in place. This argument holds absolutely no weight.
buddy, if you'd rather keep facing these killers and have the game balanced around them instead of having THEM balanced, I think you should heavily reconsider your priorities.
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i too dont understand this bhvr's obsession with giving pallet vaults to killers.
it has worked (barely) A SINGLE time and failed every other.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010895#Comment_4010895
i mean, yeah, but at this point there will be no excuses left.
Yeah, I kinda want it more for that reason. Because soloq got so many giant buff that I can't read all these "poor soloq" doomposts anymore. And some form of communication literally the last argument in the question "what soloq is missing?". And I wonder if these people will claim that soloq is "unplayable" on its own even after that or will they finally accept that soloq is completely fine and players and MMR are problems?
it's the same as "will anyone think about m1s / children". literally just a buzzword(phrase) used to justify whatever insane ######### the person is demanding.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010871#Comment_4010871
but they either dont know how to use them or cant access them because solo q doesnt offer proper communication options
Meanwhile 7k hour survivor in my team yesterday: get out of Trapper's trap with Honing Stone within 10 meters of me running to him. Twice. Trapper was on other side of the map both times.
People really overestimate how much communication will give to soloq. It will be nice to have for already good players, sure, but it won't be any better at all for bad players. Communication won't fix "guys I almost finished my gen and you didn't even touch it" or "dying under survivor on hook just did this match ten time harder for whole your team" or "can you please last longer than 10 seconds in chase against m1 killer on a map with thousand pallets?" or "maybe unhook in first ten seconds isn't a best idea if you see that killer tries to tunnel out this person?". Communication isn't as big a problem as everyone tries to make it out to be, lack of brains is.i mean, yeah, but at this point there will be no excuses left.
it will be entirely boiled down to a "skill issue" to which any reasonable (my bad for expecting that tho) developer would respond there's nothing they can or will do.
Lots of team games have atrocious solo q, DbD isn't unique here. If you're so asocial you can't find people to play together in a TEAM BASED game, maybe you should go play something else if you can't cope with losing to bad teammates. There's conveniently a killer role that offers exactly that in the same game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010774#Comment_4010774
They did not. They said 'a future patch', so they've not set any kind of timeframe anymore. It's entirely possible it'll be years before they make another attempt.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010773#Comment_4010773
This argument always assumes the game would be horribly unbalanced without tunnelling and slugging to underpin 'weak' killers, something that hasn't been proven in the slightest but gets rammed down everyone's throat regardless.
no, it assumes it WILL BE BALANCED :)
DbD is balanced around casual survivors AND killers.
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here. either everyone has to get good or nobody does.
if they remove killer's macroplay that is vital for equal skill performance, then they're going to make up for that anyhow which you can see with killer design philosophy changing to more consistent and efficient chase powers with less defined or functional counterplay.
you can already see it with ghoul/krasue fundamental design - unavoidable free hit + freest catch up / mobility in the game + scamper for ghoul or unmindgameable / uncounterable head/body form powers with slow burn free tag, scamper and catch up.
the only way this whole thing works out is if they somehow manage to create an ACTUALLY viable compensation for tunnelling / slugging removal in which case the only consequence will be in DRASTICALLY increased amount of "win harder" killer matches and gen repair simulator.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010707#Comment_4010707
I partially agree with you. I think survivors need to overcome the killer in the 1v4 aspect to win the game; otherwise the assymetrical nature of the game would make no sense. Even if you are a 1v1 god, you need a good team to support you, doing gens, eventually bodyblocking, saving, etc etc.
But i agree with you: 9.2.0 won't solve one of the biggest issues of SoloQ, which is bad teammates. That's why i don't agree 9.2.0 is what SoloQ needs since the casual survivor would play against very experienced/sweat killers after the more casual one couldn't maintain their MMR. Also, as you said in the 3rd paragraph, I personally believe that macro play is the most important skill for survivor, since it is what make survivor stronger than killers in general. Probably people will play even less skilled since now the game mechanics force the killer to don't capitlize on their mistakes, leading to more situations where people do dumb bodyblocks, lead killer to generators, drop god pallets without thinking too much, etc, etc.
>I partially agree with you. I think survivors need to overcome the killer in the 1v4 aspect to win the game; otherwise the assymetrical nature of the game would make no sense. Even if you are a 1v1 god, you need a good team to support you, doing gens, eventually bodyblocking, saving, etc etc.
yeah but this can't happen if killer isn't allowed to focus one guy turning the game into 1v1 for early game where survs are at their strongest due to high amount of resources and difficult to pressure gens (too many to control).
killers cant be inconsistent and outplayable (to the degree they are right now in general where you can easily get +30 seconds to chase by playing for distance at the right moment or looping the killer for long enough) if the killer needs to win twice as many chases on average for their 60% killrate.
and yea, macro is important, but the game keeps being designed in a way to move away from it on the survivor side beyond general strategies like splitting gens / dying good spots. survivors already have enough tools to beat all of the "annoying" killer strategies in basekit, but they either dont know how to use them or cant access them because solo q doesnt offer proper communication options
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somebody clearly didnt play before 2022
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because anything that involves actually addressing the gap (adding comms to solo q in any form) means admitting the game is inherently competitive and not a casual horror funhouse.
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>can guarantee I'm bringing my Krasue or Ghoul
so what were you doing before they added killers that autopilot playing the game for you?
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Hopefully never, they will be a massive decline in gameplay quality and the inevitable compensation / killer design change will make the game so much less enjoyable.
edit: to people downvoting me, do you genuinely want the game to turn into blight (krasue/ghoul moreso) by daylight? or do you just completely lack the ability to understand cause and effect and think they'll actually keep making fun and interactive mid tier (as of today's standard) killers in the dbd with these systems?
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010706#Comment_4010706
That sounds like pretty miserable gameplay for the survivors.
who would've thought, right? that's what trapper is at his core when his kit actually functions.
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he's fine, just needs small buffs.
he's weaker than huntress at snowballing or getting quick downs, but he makes up for that with more versatile kit with no major weaknesses.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010670#Comment_4010670
Well, its impossible to make Solo completly equal in strength to SWF, but the devs can turn the gap smaller. TBH, in any game SoloQ is disadvantage and i don't think it can be easily fixed. See VHS: even with in-game comms and pings and etc. Solo was a much harder time than playing with a friend - although Solo play was a fun and viable option at that game.
I think adding some auras (like Kindred, Empathy, Bond) as basekit would be enough, enhancing the HUD and other infos would be great for Solo without messing up too much with the game balance.
About nerfing SWF: although i think SWF can be the strongest thing this game can have, limiting perks and etc would only just make playing with friends worse. People who want to bully and sweat will still find a way to do so, just leading casual players away from the game because they can have some fun with friends.
big issue with solo q vs SWF is the way skill expression in this game works.
Solo Q has been at its best not when "theres no tunnelling/slugging/camping" but when survivors had enough 1v1 agency to potentially hold killer long enough on their own instead of relying on teamwork/efficient gen split to outpace killer's consistent hook rate.
That's one of the reasons I clown so much on people thinking that 9.2.0 ptb systems or similar changes are going to make the game better for soloq, cuz removal of killer's ability to snowball or turn the game into 1v1 will ensure the 12 quick 1x1s gameplay where solo players stand no chance. This would happen either through compensation buffs / new killer powercreeps (like kaneki/krasue) or just a massive increase in skillgap as killers would have to drop in MMR until they begin running into survivors they can consistently destroy in chases.
apart from obvious decline in gameplay quality (cuz short chases out of your control are not fun to deal with), this will just make solo q even more unplayable because survivor skill expression will move away from chases into 1v4 macro even further and we all know how bad randos are at "dying in good spot" "splitting correct generators" and other funny strats like that.
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I think the only big change trapper truly needs is some kind of a mechanic that brings back his 2016 gameplay identity when survivors ACTUALLY had to be super paranoid about traps being anywhere bc they couldnt see them.
Like making them transparent and explain it with some entity magic or make them outright INVISIBLE unless survivor is in close proximity (like 1-2 meters so they'd be able to reasonably react to them if they walk or crouch but if they're running it would be very difficult).
One of the biggest issues with trapper is his identity loss and flanderization with traps progressively becoming less and less useful over the years for anything but area denial / bottleneck camping. It's more consistent, sure, but it took away what made trapper so fun.
I dont think he needs to be "viable", he is conceptually unviable and inconsistent because that's the nature of "high risk high reward" trap power that can instantly win you a chase if survivor gets into the trap. He just needs to do his job properly and he's been unable to for years.
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010211#Comment_4010211
There is a lot they can do. Not giving him 5 (FIVE) basekit tokens for his rushes would be a good idea, for starters.
i mean, there's a lot they can do if they dont care about keeping him properly rewarding or playable.
but even if they skull merchant him, nothing would change, he doesnt really "warp the game" around himself nearly to the same degree as kaneki or krasue.
BHVR haven't balanced the game for him in 5 years, at most they changed the most egregious cases like tinkerer meta (which, ill be real, wouldve been an issue without blight, just a bit later) and they haven't started now, they just made a bunch of blight clones / powercreeps that didnt have high skill barrier to make them not accessible enough to be a nonissue.
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Yeah, I agree he needs some CD buffs and small QoLs.
Small personal gripe, but I really wish fazcoin had actual perk synergy. It's not going to break the game if it could work with infectious or coulrophobia
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why?
most new pallets are outplayable and arent safe even when predropped.
do better.
I understand it's demotivating when they keep releasing killers that play the game for you or add systems that remove skill from playing survivor, but two wrongs don't make a right.
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what for? so that survivors can rebuild same god pallet over and over? as an alternative to just doing gens?
i dont understand the point of this as a base mechanic. it sounds like something that would be optimized the ######### of while being another weakness point for bad players/teams who wouldn't understand when it's the right time to do and thus will pressure themselves even more for free.
it's just another idea to buff good survivors while making the role have one more thing they need to figure out, thus raising the skill floor even higher and making low MMR killers have even easier time.
most of the current issues in the game stem from the fact how STRONG survivors are WHEN PLAYED RIGHT and how WEAK survivors are WHEN PLAYED WRONG.
ideas like that just pile on it and make it worse.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010342#Comment_4010342
Im aware of that, but Im sure many can agree that knowing how to properly run tiles is probably the hardest thing to learn, and being able to simply focus on that and learn 1 thing at a time is better than trying to do everything at once.
for sure, just want to mention that cuz Im seeing that mistake being made way too often
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@Shroompy said:
A good way to improve in chases is 1v1s.
Having nothing else to focus on really helps. And if ya dont have anyone I wouldnt mind :)
yeah, but you need to apply these skills correctly in 1v4.
getting 2 min chase at the cost of running killer through every active gen and dropping half of the map aint going to do that