SpringMyTrap
SpringMyTrap
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@Memesis said:
Does the exhaustion still occur? Haven't tested that myself yet.
it should, no reason why not, but the aura thing doesnt work for obvious reasons
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clown wouldve been op and obnoxiously unfair with or without haste stacking.
if anything, he'd be even worse because they probably wouldnt have nerfed purples this hard or buffed yellows more
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@pestillfrash said:
It's WILD that people actually advocate for this perk. You know they only play one side of the game.
same people on killer side defending new clown except theres way less of them
"oh just win harder"
"just try harder"
"just do self contradicting counterplay thats massively detrimental and just rush gens in SWF idk"
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975448#Comment_3975448
I'm not sure where the "fictional" came from, since I didn't say that.
You're honestly going with "it takes me 30 seconds to kick a gen?" in this conversation?
Cause, again, when gens are still up you can leave the conviction survivor completely alone and they'll just go be a slug somewhere else, because that's how the perk works. No killer action needed there.
I thought you were complaining about end game, but since you can't make a coherent argument aside from angrily screeching that the perk seems to function in some very, niche and specific situations, I guess I'll have to just leave you alone with your entitled rage on this one.
i didnt expect anything different from you than to try to muddle the waters and lie by pretending like conviction takes 30 seconds to activate
i suggest you move on from this conversation, you are not making any sense anymore and I dont really have a mood to educate you on how the perk you are defending works nor take time to call you out for every one of your lies.
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for that to happen bhvr need to buff survivor 2v1 / 1v1 and tremendously nerf 1v4 while making 1v3 depend on the stages killer got prior to the first kill.
they need to make it so that survivors' team doesnt immediately lose the game the moment they lose 1-2 people and killer isnt under tremendous pressure in 1v4 that they need to get rid of ASAP.
bhvr would rather keep the snowball nature of the game for the survivors and nerf killers' ability to engage in that, while acting that killers arent allowed to express macro skill more than to get minor advantage, up to the point of implying that killers (specifically killers) are boosted in current mmr system.
the more they keep doing that, the less there's hope for either side to win in the match if it goes wrong from the start. comeback systems devs implement feel artificial and like rubberbands pulling your punches.
the game is getting scripted in really wrong ways.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975445#Comment_3975445
I think you misunderstood what I meant when I compared it to flip flop power struggle. I'll explain it in a bit more detail just so my point is clear. 'Walking through pallets' has nothing to do with it.
Survivors who bring it and have a buddy can go down on a pallet, if their friend shows themselves nearby then the Killer has been put into a situation where they have to leave the person under the pallet because if they pick up immediately, they get pallet saved but if they simply push the person away they also get pallet saved by Flip Flop Power Struggle.
Conviction creates similar lose/lose scenarios. What helps keep other anti-slugging perks in check is their limitations; Unbreakable is one use only, Exponential is a boon and so on. The only limitation Conviction has is healing someone which is not difficult.
the other "limitation" is incredibly generous 30 second timer thats just barely under survivor expected chasetime for one hit vs most killers
enough to cross the map and die in the best spot possible for an easy reset later
assuming they arent abusing bugs (lets give bhvr shills a benefit of the doubt and assume this interaction isnt intended) to reset themselves like with inner strength
conviction reminds me of the original borrowed time with this timer. gaslighters also claimed that "it doesnt matter they go down after timer runs out anyway".
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its wild how anyone thought this change would be a good idea.
really good showcase of bhvr's current mindset with killers smh - just take all the skill away from playing the killer by lobotomizing macro and dumbing down powers as much as possible so little timmy can feel STRONG mowing down survivors until the survivors are good enough at which point little timmy will have to lose no matter what
they should stop balancing the game and killers around the idea a person should easily do well with any killer they pick right off the bat.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975480#Comment_3975480
The problem was that killers sit on 3 gen entire game, it's not possible anymore. It's more of basekit gen defence for less perk reliant.
the problem is that with the amount of kicks & regression you suggest most killers could do it nonetheless
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@ImWinston said:
- For those who don't know how to "evaluate" this video, the survivor, to do what you saw, had to use 3 slots of his build, namely Convinction - Unbreakable - Soul guard, a strong combo, but EXTREMELY situational that you might not use for many games, unlike Sprint burst, DS, Windows etc etc .... because they are always useful. You need to stop complaining all the time, or at least stop complaining if the survivors always use the same 10-15 perks. It's starting to get ridiculous.
totally situational, just requires killer not to instapick.
playing against sb windows and other classic survivor meta is magnitudes more fun and enjoyable than against this.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974935#Comment_3974935
My suggestion is to make base game gen patrol way more valuable to incentive more perk variety and just give slowdowns small impact. You idea is in theory the same just applied to different mechanic.
they had this exact mindset like you did when they tried overbrine eruption meta
this does not work out
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@UnicornMedal said:
I still don't really see the problem. During the trial, it causes the player to go down after 30 seconds which means it's essentially useless outside of recovering from hard slugging or escaping near the gates, like the gif. But even in the gif, the player ran a build specifically designed for that scenario and the stars aligned for it to happen. If we have a strong endgame build, I think that's a good thing. Granted, BHVR has spent the last 3 years gutting endgame for Survivor so rest assured it's temporary.
its not just the build, I had conviction happen in spite of me not slugging with people have just 2 perkslots dedicated for the thing.
i already lost midgame 3v1 to this nonsense once because the survivor I needed to kill just instapicked because I dared to kick a generator
then they have up to 30 seconds to die in the least favourable spot for me even though they just went down on the generator
this is not okay
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975174#Comment_3975174
But the killer isn't slugging, he just downed Soma. It just so happens that Oni has a slightly longer animation, but this isn't fair.
well this is a fictional scenario anyway so who cares, amiright?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975406#Comment_3975406
At this point you're literally just complaining that the perk has any function in any scenario.
You went from the video, which is end game (like blood warden), then shifted the goal post to "being forced to slug"... So if your already chasing another survivor for 30 seconds to be actually forced to slug, it sounds like the conviction player is just downing themselves for free while you chase another player.
Sounds like you're choosing actively to not hook in the second scenario here.
That's called map pressure, and having two survivors occupied at once. And one of them is literally a free down by their own perk if you leave them alone.
The survivor perk worked once, with a full build dedicated to it, in a highly specific situation that the player brought all of that for. You are really, really upset that this perk does literally anything at all. That's the punch line.
>any fictional scenario
>i stop to kick a gen
its okay to admit to being wrong, you dont need to double down on gaslighting
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975241#Comment_3975241
Stuff with conviction is only rare because it just came out and people haven't completely caught on to it yet
It's like the situation with flip flop power struggle, it took a while for people to figure out how busted the combo is if you just have one other person be near you when you go down and Conviction just adds fuel to this problem
its worse because with that combo is at least negligible by committing to a slug.
conviction has no counterplay like that, youre ######### no matter what you do
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975243#Comment_3975243
So, no. You don't have an argument against what I said.
Because, by itself, you can just instantly down the person I've the blade wipe animation completes, or just pick them up before they have time.
You can tunnel them out first and the perk never activates at all. Or camp. Or they may just not get gens done at all without "gen rush".
Because unless the doors are actively open, the survivor downs themself for you, for free. While you do literally anything else (like, for example, pressuring the other survivor nearby).
I found a better analogy: this is like blood warden. You build for it, the stars have to align, and your opponent has to basically play into it for it to work. It's not common, but when it finally, finally works there's a payoff.
comparing a perk that lets survivors delay a hook by up to 30 seconds if the killer doesnt instapick to bloodwarden, literal meme perk is wild
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975236#Comment_3975236
I never said impossible, I said very rare.
Which part of what I said is incorrect? Because it appears to be like you're simply upset that this survivor had a strategy, built an entire kit around it, and finally got it to function... And that's somehow completely unconscionable for you.
killers slug people for less than 10 seconds so rarely indeed
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because some perks dont differentiate between stages survivor is in.
killer perks tend to do that more because the killer is able to take less perks than survivors can.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975181#Comment_3975181
So, I'm not sure where this tantrum comes from, but...
This scenario takes exactly 4 perks to run: unbreakable for the speed, conviction for speed and pickup, tenacity so you can't just grab them at your feet and drop it off power that way, and soul guard for the endurance.
Without any single one of those perks, this wouldn't work.
On top of that, the exit gates have to be either already opened or 99'd, as well as immediately available on the map. And if this was literally any killer other than oni, the killer could probably blade wipe and still be able to pick up before conviction comes up.
Literally the stars had to align for this to be possible. This isn't going to be a meta by a long shot.
And the other things to consider here too, is that this is at a pretty steep cost. The survivor has zero anti tunnel, no anti camping, no gen rush. This build does not function at all if they're the first one found, and they down themselves automatically if it isn't end game.
This is basically like someone posting an orbital strike from the huntress and saying it needs nerfed because they managed to get lucky and make their long shot strategy pay off once.
its wild how much mental gymnastics conviction defenders go through instead of just admitting the perk is unhealthy and broken
oh stars need to aling, this is just impossible, never happens, the killer just needs to go out of their way to kick a generator or check for save, wild, is impossible and can never happen
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its annoying but believe it or not this is the healthiest slowdown so far.
anything else is either encouraging less healthy gameplay or is much more disproportionately weak on already weaker killers than it is on meta killers.
f/e if we had pop meta back, the killers that use it the best are high mobility killers for obvious reason.
overbrine meta wouldve been miserable genkick simulator slop
tinkerer/ruin/undying is a meta of blight/billy dropping every chase running to info procs on autopilot applying massive amounts of pressure.
deadlock meta is meta of camping/tunelling killers cuz slowdown works for free and gives them more time.
the only way this should change and the change would be for the better is if they figure out more healthy versions of these perks that are even less disproportionately powerful on killers of difference mobility/chase powers and which encourage even more healthier gameplay from killers.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
"it's your own fault if you get slugged. if you don't want to be slugged, bring the perks to avoid that"
Survivor brings the perks, against a slugging killer
"Wait, no"
tomorrow they make a perk that makes it impossible for survivors to have more than one survivor on generators at once and label it as anti genrush perk and say that it's completely fair and survivors should just adapt, stop splitting gens and quit complaining. they get told they just need to bring sabo, play for bodyblocks and that's completely viable and healthy way of winning.
do you complain about that or you also take the stance ""killer brings the perks against genrushing survivors"?
judging by your post history, you complained about less so I doubt.
btw, fun and balanced perk, totally deserved to nullify this skilled tactical feed lara committed, god forbid I dare kick high prog last generator these people are trying to complete
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974881#Comment_3974881
The limits are still on, it will be just little bit more viable to hold gens but not to the point of 3 genning. As I said the perks would have to be adjusted, but it will make gap between gen perk and no gen perks less different. I mostly run max 1 slowdown perk and orientate more on chase/info builds as I prefer better chase potential over stacked slowdown. But people have different playstyle.
the limits are on but that means the killer has 100% regression capacity on each generator making survivors have to apply up 190 second time sink baseline on the generators killer chooses to pressure.
even with nerfs to slowdowns which cant be too massive this would be tragic to deal with
i think better way is to make gens take less to do but have more to be done
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974867#Comment_3974867
As long as I understand there are multiple teams hired for the particular dlcs and game mechanics. So one did Castlevania and other did FNAF, fe. I know that same guy did Spingtrap and Ghoul.
which is surprising because they feel like being designed and balanced by completely different people
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@Pablo___Pablo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972477#Comment_3972477
Springtrap invisibility wasn't even that bad.
If you were close to the door, you could see that he's coming by looking on the little screen so you could pre-run.
If you were far from the door, you could hear him coming out so it didn't matter that much.yeah it was just confusing but if you payed attention and had awareness that it's a thing it was completely negligible.
you still heard and saw the door open.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974871#Comment_3974871
Zombies are already very good AI supportive tool. You don't get feedback on how much value Zombies do on pushing people off objectives, healing etc. apart from aura. Doesn't mean they need qol. They can win you game and do mostly nothing, but they are not primar power tool, just supportive unlike Knight's guards that are strong for reason.
theyre highly rng which is not good design
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@Elan said:
Gens are hot topic. Swfs will rush them anyway and solo q will barely touch them. I was monitoring my teams productivity mid matches and average time before randoms start repairing gens (with no corrupt btw) is about 50s. Which is mostly one person on hook. While I feel that people have their objective on both sides and should do them each extrem - swfs rushing, solos doing nothing are hard to bridge and adjust. I feel they should probably do some base changes, I might see:
→ Increase gen time to 95s
→ increase damage per kick to 10 %
→ increase kick limit per gen to 10 kicks
→ adjust slowdown perks to reflect those changes (fe. DMS being 30s, pain res being 15 %, corrupt being 60s etc.)
i feel like these changes will just push killers into 3 gen gameplay + it will require a lot more additional balancing to make the entire perk archetype in line
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973375#Comment_3973375
Not really. I just don't understand the urge of "buff strong killer" when there are weak killers that need buffs or reworks. Nemesis doesn't need any buffs, because he's currently in very good spot after his late buffs.
he could use some qols to make zombies actually useable, but yeah, all things considered he is much better than he was before and he pretty much powercreeps similar killers
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i find it insulting how they overbalanced and played safely with fragile pallet perk and just didnt care about properly balancing or at least designing michone's perks well
oh, infinite UB you can just set off in 25% recovery which has a downside so bad it lets you cross half of the map before putting you back down? yeah, that perk can wait a few months to be changed, solo q survivors need perks too
fragile pallet you can only place instead of broken pallets after doing an animation long enough to make it unviable when killer is nearby and which requires to do side objectives? yeah, this one HAS to be released as weak as possible, god forbid we ever allow the possibility of 4 comp survivors perfectly cycling through chests to create one in a million set up for this perk to be unfair.
sometimes I think there are two dev teams working on this game's balancing with diametrically opposite mindsets (one balance the game like esports comp and the other balance it like people who play it are incapable of playing even remotely well) and none of them did a good job with this patch.
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@UnicornMedal said:
Having the notification is unhealthy for the game if they're really truly concerned about fairness. Ideally there would be more to protect the unhooked Survivor as well, which is the main issue with it. When implemented too early (as is usually the case), the Killer is able to turn a losing trial into a 2 - 4k with minimal effort UNLESS they're greatly outmatched.
As it stands, the odds of any of that changing are slim. But if Survivor had more catch ups of their own, it would be helpful in balancing the scales a bit.
there's enough to punish/prevent already and hardly anything to reward the opposite plays.
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well killers will stop returning to hooks and proxying when not doing that will at least stop being punished by having unhook insta reset with various perks or getting hit by full value from StB and so on
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@UnicornMedal said:
It might work, but it's not enough of a change to make a real impact in my opinion. I think you'd either need even more gens that take less time to complete, or a system where progress on gens are locked from regressing at intervals of 25%.
im just brainstorming the easier ways they could buff killers' basekit if they intent to railroad them like they do. adding more gentime like they did in 2022 probably not going to work out well
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@Good_Pancake said:
The if I'm not using pain res and such perks I'm loosing is kinda dumb to me. Like ofc if you bring weaker perks, you are going to be weaker. Btw you can win with a unique build, you just need to be at the right mmr, not the mmr you are because you are boosted from gen regress. (My most used gen regress has a 20% pick rate, then the next is <1%) and my kill rate is 70%
Btw pick rate is for me, not the community
because devs band aided killers' intended optimal play in anti-perk/mechanic meta into killer having to bring particular perks.
if you, a survivor, dont bring perks that punish killer for tunnelling/slugging/etc you still have a chance to have a good game if the killer doesnt do any of these things because they play around a threat of these perks / have enough skill difference to not care about playing like that.
if you, a killer, dont bring perks that reward you for not doing any of these things, then you have to go out of your way to play in a particular way while still dealing with a potential threat of the anti perks.
you surely can win with whatever if you get against people you'd curbstomp on sheer massive skill&experience difference, but this is a really shallow victory imo
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974592#Comment_3974592
Doesn't really work for you, when in clip he doesn't use either of those…
nonono, you dont understand, this is a collective punishment, same demented mindset that justified balancing the entirety of the survivor meta around ~4 killers that they bring into every game against 40 killers
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@francesinhalover said:
Fair when killers bring pain rés + dead man overpowered switch every single game
so i guess you dont actually have defence for it if your only argument is whataboutism
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974040#Comment_3974040
We've just had a string of very strong Killers added to the game that can make very good use of the best Killer perks that are already in the game. Personally, I think the current Killer design philosophy of creating high mobility Killers with multiple powers is also very unhealthy for the game but that's just my opinion.
Is the current meta really "healthy" as you say, or is it just a case of better the devil you know? I'm not really a meta gamer and I tend to run whatever I like. But you can't deny that seeing the same perks over and over again is something that a lot of players complain about.
As for MFT, I think it was the haste stacking with Hope that was the most unhealthy thing about it, not so much the perk itself. BHVR were going to do something about haste stacking, but players reacted badly to the planned changes so now we have to deal with Sonic the Hedgehog speed Clown, I guess. I get it, haste stacking builds are fun, but are they healthy? I'm not so sure.
So who gets to decide what's healthy or unhealthy? The players that shout the loudest about the things they don't like? Because to me, that's how it feels sometimes. Is being able to run 4 slowdown perks on a top teir Killer healthy? Is being a SWF on comms able to make the best use of certain perks (and get every info perk for free) healthy? Both of those are part of our stale but "healthy" meta right now. Everyone has different ideas about what's healthy or unhealthy for the game and the community will never be able to fully agree on what that balance is.
I'm just saying that sometimes I think the game might be better off if BHVR didn't always listen to us.
and we should balance the game around ghoul or what? ill let you in on a secret, even though ghoul is a popular killer, not everyone plays ghoul. lots of people play killers like springtrap who, like it or not, are not feeling well in the meta balanced for average clueless survivors playing against ghoul
current slowdown meta is way more healthy than previous alternatives, it's an objective fact - it encourages committing to chases, spreading hooks and doesnt require killer to rely on a mobility power to get value out of it. it could be better - not rely on chase efficiency as well yet it's far more preferable than ######### like ruin/undying meta that only really benefitted blight and was mediocre for most other killers, overbrine eruption that benefitted low tiers well and made up the most mindnumbing boring gameplay and so on.
mft was unhealthy because it was 1) free value 2) two perks in one 3) breaking killer's perception of timings 4) specifically targeting already weaker killers. haste stacking was hardly top 5 of the issues, just the most blatant example of the perk being stupid because it was two permanent haste effects combined together.
So who gets to decide what's healthy or unhealthy?
people who understand why it is not okay to have a constant stream of perks specifically targeting fairplay, skilled play, interactive parts of the game, soloq, bad players or offmeta killers
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@tjt85 said:
It's a frustrating trend, for sure. Players will complain about a stale Survivor meta, but then something new like MFT comes along to shake that up and they'll complain about the new perk even more. I liked OG MFT because it was a solid alternative to the standard exhaustion perks. It was harder to get real value from than Sprint Burst or Lithe, but you wouldn't have known that from all the complaints about the perk. Of course, after the nerf everyone just went back to their usual old exhaustion perks and so nothing ever changes.
While I think BHVR should listen to player feedback, sometimes I wonder if they listen to the feekback of the loudest, grumpiest voices in the community a little too often. It's honestly really hard to imagine a strong perk like Sprint Burst being introduced today without it being nerfed into the ground within months because of negative feedback.
The only perk from the current chapter that interests me is Rick party pallet one, because it would fit in well with the kind of fun but gimmicky build I enjoy. I would probably run it with Smash Hit / Chem Trap / Any Means Necessary. But I'll wait until it's in the Shrine because I think the activation requirements are way too much for a single use party pallet.
are you going to act like this if they add a new killer perk thats like old eruption or something? or are you going to acknowledge that stale healthy meta is better than new unhealthy meta
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they literally just dropped conviction thats new meta for anti slugging.
before that they released shoulder the burden that's incredibly overpowered against tunnelling even if you dont intend to do it.
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@SoGo said:
I was saying it before, they should've adjusted the upload schedule to only release 4 or even 3 chapters this year, so the teams that do bugfixes and balance changes would get more time to get the game to a better condition.
they generally need to stop pushing 4 killers per year
they almost did that this year but from what im hearing that just means theyre wasting devtime on a massive killer rework thats basically an equivalent of a new killer
idk how they organized process but i refuse to believe they have a dedicated dev team specifically for printing new killers that cant be put onto anything else. not just bugs, literally anything else. make another item for survs, figure out some alternative ways of delivering new content than isnt another character that requires building the game around them
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973949#Comment_3973949
The Bulk Bloodpoint spending feature is a godsend. I love the additional perk and cosmetic loadout presets.
But the bugs. Those darn bugs.
The fact that they shipped a build to live with an obvious glitch in the OFFERING SCREEN is just not acceptable.wait till you learn about streetwise bug or exhaustion bug
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well youre playing through half of it already
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agreed, this is just sad
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@ThatRyanB said:
I've already acknowledged this on more Killer-focused threads, so I wanted to pop in here to say that I appreciate you sharing your perspective on Fog Vials from a Survivor POV. We've been collecting feedback since the update's release, so I wanted to make it clear that we're also taking Survivor feedback into account here.
For that reason, please don't hesitate to share your Survivor perspectives here, as I'll be keeping my eyes open for feedback!
please dont murder their vision obstruction, that's literally the point of their entire existence.
please just fix gimmicky power interactions like singu not being allowed to TP to people with m2 and make the visuals less "flashbang white" so people have the vision obstructed, not flashed.
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yes, they nerfed them roughly by 55%
people complained really hard about the new system being predatory and BHVR didnt fail to prove them wrong by making it twice as bad
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the only unbalanced thing about it is unintended.
otherwise its just one of many survivor perks and not the worst one because its one use and telegraphed
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972425#Comment_3972425
"op" has 2% pick rate and is useless once the items lose their charge
how op….
its rather funny how they dont see the corner they got themselves in.
if frankin was so OP despite being a niche counterpick to one particular optional thing survivors have, then that means that optional thing was overpowered as well.
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its being dumbed down a lot in really bad ways
idk why bhvr keep forcing inherently more competitive and skill expressive role to be like this, its just sad
if they put even half of this effort into making survivor easier to play&pick up and be weaker in SWFs, so many issues wouldve been resolved or relieved at least partially
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in high end play you have other stupid ass perks giving you a lot of time and spending extra time to do chests is not an issue when killer cant pressure you there
its more than viable, just not consistent bc of item rng and therefore never worth using even if they make items ultra op
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972479#Comment_3972479
Singularity and spirit have it the worst. Spirit is just a powerless 4.4 m1 killer and singularity now has TWO counters to his powers because you can't lock on with a bipod through the fog.
Having SWFs cycle EMP's and vials constantly ruining my chases is the most garbage experience ive ever had in this game.
yeah I experienced that already. I think singu's interaction seems unintended and rather unnecessary, but I still stand by what I said.
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
it’s not a new map. It’s a new tile that sometimes appears on Withering Isle maps if a TWD character is in the game.
Expecting a separate lobby for something so situational is unreasonable. Especially since no one likes playing on Withering Isle as it is. You’d have no Killers queuing for it.no, it actually is a new map.
its just wreckers yard variation of the greenville basically with reskinned gym
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i havent experienced much trouble with them. if you pay attention, you dont really get lost and them running vials means they arent actually op stuff.
good to them if it works for them tho
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its a bug, without it the perk is fine
meanwhile conviction is the actually op and fundamentally broken perk