SpringMyTrap
SpringMyTrap
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@jedimaster505 said:
the irony when killer mains suggest a killer change, is that they almost always pretend they're being reasonable by nerfing the killer slightly, then asking for several more buffs which would make the killer just as bad if not worse to play against. Kaneki needs 0 buffs whatsoever and only nerfs. He needs a bigger cooldown when he cancels his power and when he leaps over vaults since he both slows the survivor and vaults very quickly and can hit you almost immediately afterwards. also, the first free hit should require him to aim instead of being an aim bot.
you can't greed pallets or he just M1's you. you can't pre drop or he just fast vaults and downs you. you have to stun him like a legion stand off and pray he's too stupid to back up a foot when you drop the pallet. basically, it requires the survivor to have several times more skill than the Kaneki to even stand a chance to prolong the chase. currently a moderately competent kaneki can turn any god loop into a 50/50 where the survivor has to get a stun or will get downed after the first free hit. it's broken BS and needs a heavy nerf with no buffs whatsoever to compensate.
fortunately, in practice most Kaneki players are very bad mechanically at playing the killer since like most Blight players, they main the killer to tunnel for easy 4K wins with minimal effort. the only reason kaneki is not currently as oppressive as Nurse and Blight despite Kaneki requiring far less skill to learn, is that Nurse/Blight players have had thousands of hours to master abusing their mechanics to their full potential. whereas most kaneki players are only semi-aware of how to abuse his broken mechanics so if you're a seasoned survivor you can punish their ignorance when in principal the Kaneki should never lose.
lastly, putting lots of exclamation marks and spamming the same convoluted descriptions in multiple posts does not make those changes a good idea. in general BHVR overthinks killer changes and reworks way too much when all that is needed is a nerf to their speed to make their OP cheese tactics less effective, leaving less room for error for the killer. survivors in general are expected to be God tier loopers just to escape against mediocre average skill killers, which makes no sense in a PvP but not much I can do about it.
oh no kaneki having slightly more range to grab environment or having smaller range to start the grab will make him so much worse than scamper and long range hit scan grabs
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I think a lot of this is okay but I do feel like the fatigue duration after ending the power needs a slight increase as well (but only slight, no more than +0.5 seconds). It is a part of his power which can offer a decent amount of skill expression so I don't want to nerf it too much, but in my opinion 2 seconds is simply too little of a window for survivors to have a realistic chance in a lot of cases. Even just 2.5 I think would help a lot.
Obviously removing the vault would be a big change but I'd agree if something is to be removed from his kit altogether then it should be this, it's the least interactive and least skillful component of his power and removing it also immediately eliminates the pain points around kidnap and its awkward counterplay.
I agree that reverting the power range to 16m is probably fair compensation for removing the vault (although maybe Handkerchief should get reworked then, idk if >16m should be a possibility again). I wouldn't agree with Coffee becoming basekit though.
But overall I like most of your suggestions, this is a good start.
edit: also want to add that the CCG ID Card addon would also need to be reworked, as removing the leap vault makes it obsolete
any nerf you make to fatigue duration disproportionately hurts skill ceiling more than it increases skill floor.
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yeah, that's exactly what this killer needs.
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about 2,5k on springtrap and maybe like 300-400 more spread across other characters
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970133#Comment_3970133
Hypothetical situation, if the survivors had a perk where if they bring it they automatically win would you be fine with it? They 'paid' for it so it's totally fine in your eyes right?
this hypothetical situation in the context of this thread implies the ghoul is an autowin which is objectively not true.
in any case I'd be blaming developers and a terrible game design, as a sensible person should always do, especially when it comes to survivors who are immune to being blamed for running things :)
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@Dustin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970130#Comment_3970130
I absolutely agree with
most of it is just every person on the team understanding how to do the counterplay and not commit major mistakes that singularity relies on to snowball the game easily.
I just find it's easier to avoid that in a swf even if you're playing casual. It's easy to forget things on occasion as a solo player but having a friend just kind of poke at you while playing keeps you focused on a killer that requires so much of that.
I wouldn't say comms fully dictates the outcome but I feel it does make it less stressful / easier for players which makes them more committed to playing against a difficult killer. Maybe this is more a psychological thing rather than a balance issue.
just saying that it's not really that much different for this killer, comms and cherrypicking teammates do trivialize the encounter for sure tho
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@Dustin said:
Really depends - I enjoy playing as and against a Singularity player. Although playing against really depends if they are trying to have fun or doing absolutely everything to win. I admit I feel the killer maybe has some problematic points that can't really be addressed. It's very easy for them to micro manage a lot of aspects in the game if they are good.
Usually the common case against the good ones I've played is they bring the game to a crawl and do not allow any mistakes and will absolutely kill a survivor early if given the chance. I feel most of my fun games against a good one has usually been in a SWF which makes managing their power a lot easier. Although I admit I've struggled against good ones as a solo survivor due to survivors not knowing when to EMP or sometimes even myself not being sure where a survivor is to EMP them.
I feel a lot of their power thrives when comms are not in play. I also feel this when I play them. Overall though I enjoy versing them even with some rough games. I feel their power is mostly fair to deal with and counter but at the same time maybe something could be done to improve the gap on managing their power between solo queue and SWF.
I personally wouldn't suggest anything to change them though. They're one of the stronger killers I personally enjoy versing and wouldn't want to see their kit ruined when there's a lot of cases where this has happened with killers I did enjoy versing.
I think comms dont really play that big part in dealing with singu, unless it's really high level of play.
most of it is just every person on the team understanding how to do the counterplay and not commit major mistakes that singularity relies on to snowball the game easily.
like if people just dont give him free TPs and dont waste most pallets in first chase when they could use windows half of the time, it's way easier to handle
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Just make perks visible in game.
Yeah it would take away a bit from cherrypicking builds in lobbies, but it would eliminate most of the toxicity and would help people know what perks to play around.
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Yes if they arent playing anti solo q cheese strats.
Singu is a pretty interactive killer with interesting chase and macro counterplay
though with my luck, every singu I get is on killer sided deadzone maps where dealing with him is rather tough
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@100PercentBPMain said:
it's wild just how differently survivors play when you use the nerfed Iridescent Lament Configuration vs no iri. Pinhead should be getting his box off the start 100% of the time, but without it you get seekers of pleasure trying to beat you to the punch. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but calm down Sable!
yeah, hiding aura really makes survivors struggle to locate the box right away, though I wasnt thinking about this addon when making the tierlist, I was more focused on things like iri fang or original pain that can make pinhead really nasty
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@R2k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969837#Comment_3969837
I would disagree with you. It was multiple times proven Discord beats everything. People even streamed how they 4 man perkless squad outplayed killer just by using voice calls. Also voice call completely removes any stress and doubts from game as one who loops killer tells others what to do. It's win-win scenario in comparison to SoloQ players who must pick auras to be effective.
please read what I just said.
auras are always stronger than comms when it comes to sharing info because they give accurate and up to date information.
in any case unless your proposal includes nerfing survivors' skill ceiling in any reasonable ways, you are not making a convincing case why we should trivialize yet another form of survivor high end skill expression.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969729#Comment_3969729
Yeah killer feels you have to do too much sometimes for me helps farming with last 2 survivors for example or playing survivor side to relax and not caring about the result. But I find survivor side more annoying if I actually try to win...
its annoying when you try to win as solo q cuz you either need to rely on random number generator operated teammates or you need to play for hatch which is an incredibly boring experience.
but at this point i just go play SWF
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969818#Comment_3969818
That is the mistake in mindset though, many SWF already have access to each other's information and location through coms. It's only the solo players that don't have access to this, which is what creates a gap, and this gap makes the game harder to balance. The smaller the gap, the easier it will be to balance the game
auras are always stronger than comms when it comes to sharing info because they give accurate and up to date information.
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@R2k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969730#Comment_3969730
You are wrong. Casual players are core and majority in every game. And I mean literally. People in majority don't tend to improve or play for competitive level. They play for emotions.
Also you can check steamchart . Biggest player income is during events. The moment event ends, they go away.
yeah and thats why it gets extra funny that they balance this game for tryhards but design it for casuals
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969720#Comment_3969720
Then you need to see/listen more. Any comp Nurse player will confirm you that those are her best addons by far.
you missed the point of the post.
they can be the best, they just wont make enough difference for me to consider them power defining.
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yeah, im getting burnt out on killer recently.
surv is way less annoying to play because you need to do so much less, just know the game well.
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@Choaron said:
Nurse less than 20%? I get that her default power level is so absurdly high that it may feel this way but it really isn't. The 3-blink, recall blink and increased lunge addons are all ridiculously overtuned.
I dont think they make an actual difference.
yeah, 3 blinks make nurse unfair, but they dont really enable particularly more. you should be getting your hits with 2 blinks, you should be making correct reads already anyway.
bigger lunge / sloppy / recall arent that mandatory to her power either, but sure, you could make a case they make massive difference.
but from what I was seeing, most good nurses, streaking nurses and comp nurses arent taking those addons even if they have an option. On contrary, blights used to run his pre-nerf iris quite a lot
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The "strange" positioning of DBD. A casual game with competitive logic (both the DEVS' and the players' fault)
There's a massive dissonance with how the game expects you to "treat" / "play" either role and with how the role is actually played.
The survivor is being forced to be the competitive tryhard git gut role even though for that to work they need to play in SWF or lose miserably, while killer is forced to be a casual role with less and less reward for skill expression even though it's played in a competitive and stressful way due to increased player agency.
It's not really fun for either side.
The point where survivor role gets fun becomes further and further every year because there's more things to be good at and the bar is higher while killer role ceases to be rewarding for your time faster and faster as you lose more control with survivors getting better.
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Singularity's basekit power.
one of the best designs they've made in years, unique, fair, rewarding, powerful with a lot of skill expression and good learning curve especially after the update.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969329#Comment_3969329
So where is it stated by the devs that the perk description is worded wrong? Because that would be the accurate statement. Increasing recovery rate is not the same as reducing a timer and BHVR should know that.
Since I know BHVR loves their charge system I highly doubt its the other way around.
Ah so just a shadow change randomly. We love no patch notes.it's not worded "wrong", it's worded in a "misleading" way because it's not consistent with other perk descriptions in the game.
it's like saying that resilience, instead of making you do generators 9% faster, reduces the amount of time it takes to complete a generator by 7.55% and whichever amount to do heals, totems, etc
they need to correct the description to be in line with other perks - increases the rate of recovery by 66% and nerf it because, frankly, current effect is ludicrously good because it's both massive and stackable.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969416#Comment_3969416
I’m going to crawl away if you down me and chase someone else, why would I stay where you left me if I know you’re trying to snowball and put the team in a near if not impossible position to recover from? The killer gets so much pressure from having two people hooked at the same time, it’s almost impossible to fumble as killer at that point.
Why would anyone stay there? It’s better to crawl away and recover. It’s almost always the best option unless you got being a slug perks for that exact situation.
yeah that's an optimal play, just like slugging is an optimal play here.
the issue is that we somehow call this scenario "excessive" slugging when it's caused by the survivor choosing to crawl away to deny the hook in case of tactical slugging.
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@PatchNoir said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/451911/so-this-is-the-vision-with-the-ghoul
its a bug, he should only mark the survivor OR jump after. its a bug because both are happening. Sometimes the devs are wrong/didnt undertood the situation
well lets hope so, but even so it's wild we're even having a discussion about this killer having any kind of anti loop whatsoever. the whole power makes sense when he explicitly cannot play antiloop unless he's cracked at using leaps to bodyblock people.
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@RodanThrelos said:
From the DBD Reddit AMA:
For the Clown, the intention was to make Yellow bottles more useful, while making Purples less dominant in his kit. We're hoping this will encourage using both bottles more often. For The Knight, it was mostly quality of life. We tried lowering the Standard spawn time in hopes that it would make him less oppressive in "sandwich" scenarios, but it didn't pan out.
With the upcoming release, there are some changes from the PTB. The Clown's Purple bottles are being adjusted, and we've reverted the gas spread changes, as well as some of the addon changes. When it comes to Knight, we've reverted the Standard spawn time changes. We're thankful for all the feedback from the PTB, which helps us build better patches for all of our players!
-Jeff
so basically clown's skill ceiling just got massively hurt and knight was spared, for now.
yikes, my condolences to people who tried to make clown work.
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it's not bugged, it's just worded in a misleading way - unlike a lot of other things the perk talks about overall timer and subtracts %s from it rather from charge/second rates.
as a result, we have roughly 66% charge/second rate increase with 40% timer decrease.
40 / 1.66 = 24
40 - 40x0.4 = 24
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broken prevents healing altogether.
what i am suggesting will remove positive healing speed modifiers.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968845#Comment_3968845
The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches
It does though.
When you have a "strategy" that is so hands-down completely, no-contest more effective than everything else, people overly rely on it. That's why people like me complain about "tunneling at 5 gens" because it's taking something that really should be a comeback mechanic, and basing the entire match around it.
People "feel they need to tunnel" because of exactly this crutch. They tunnel, completely destroy survivors who are at their skill level, and boost their MMR to a point where anything else that would be required of them is too much. They can't find survivors quickly, can't chase efficiently, can't read the loops, can't identify which pallets are playable, can't manage their kit well. And they are so, absolutely convinced that they need 4 slowdowns, that they are even failing the meta game by not bringing the perks or addons that would help them in those situations.
And, it appears we agree on that, because:
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their actual MMR bracket.
This whole strategy is a crutch, covering up people's innate inefficiencies with the core game mechanics. And instead of looking at those and learning, or even admitting that they could have room to improve, they are going to use every buff, advantage, or new perk/ability to tunnel even more. When that doesn't work, they scream for regression, because, again, it can't be them being inefficient, the only answer is that the game is somehow tuned against them. But it's not. Demonstrably. The Devs specifically set out to make the game lean toward the killer, and every patch, every data point confirms that they've succeeded at this.
Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
I really don't care honestly. The "skill floor" is largely a subjective thing, and I feel like your entire fixation with it is disingenuous.
You started by creating a weirdly inflated and wildly biased list, in an attempt to show "look, survivors got more (quantity) than killers" and implied it was unfair. When I posted to show that, no killers actually got a decent amount more, you're shifting the goal post again here.
Here's what really matters: 3 years of the devs making active changes to increase kill rates. Not because 60% is "fair" or "perfectly balanced", but because "they want the killer role to be more lethal". And all of those changes to the game have combined to do exactly that.
The game has been made easier for killers, by quality (and possibly by quantity too, but that's really beside the point). So the skill floor, overall, has gone down for killers, and gone up for survivors… Which is one of the main reasons why killers are being mismatched with survivor teams who are actually more skilled than the killer.
"When you have a "strategy" that is so hands-down completely, no-contest more effective than everything else, people overly rely on it. That's why people like me complain about "tunneling at 5 gens" because it's taking something that really should be a comeback mechanic, and basing the entire match around it."
Tunnelling at 5 gens is a cause of a massive skill difference. For this to happen a person needs to be found very fast, get downed, hooked and unhooked before a single gen pops.
This should never happen, especially in pubs, if matchmaking was way more fair. This is what I am talking about when I say we're balancing for progressively bigger skill gaps.
Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their
actualMMR bracket.I dont think it's intentional, but pay attention to your wording. "Actual mmr bracket", not "actual skill level".
I dont like bringing up comp dbd because it immediately causes screeching, but look at it for an example of fair equally skilled environment. People, a lot of which play both sides obscene amount of time, have to slug, camp and tunnel and they struggle nonetheless in spite of having to deal with much less things than they would normally.
As I said elsewhere, I dont think DbD needs to be balanced for comp, but it trying to be the literal opposite is not healthy either.
Making killers legally smurf and balancing them further and further around disproportionate skill input, floor and ceiling compared to survivors is a road nowhere. Sure, some killers can be like that, but not all and not all of them need to be railroaded into this with backwards game design.
The Devs specifically set out to make the game lean toward the killer, and every patch, every data point confirms that they've succeeded at this.
Lean towards killer where? Where survivors are not capable of even remotely realizing their potential? This is what Im talking about when I call the killer noob stomper role and say devs make it worse.
Here's what
reallymatters: 3 years of the devs making active changes to increase kill rates. Not because 60% is "fair" or "perfectly balanced", but because "they want the killer role to be more lethal". And all of those changes to the game have combined to do exactly that.I see that you can't respond to what Im saying so you just accuse me of being disingenuous which is kinda a self report.
Killer role is more lethal on average, this is accomplished by making the role easier to play and more reliant on survivor mistakes. The buffs you've listed are doing exactly that.
So I dont really see how any of that is good unless you enjoy the game being autopiloted for you and you dont care about the pvp part of the game.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968960#Comment_3968960
Its not about the speed, its about spawning positions. There are maps like Midwitch where a nurse can blink on survivor in the lethal duration (helps when the survivor moves closer).
If a blight reaches me quick with lethal, it doesnt really matter for me. Its still a quick chase start with a S-tier killer, but he wont get a free hit with his first rush. So its fair perk value.
midwich is a highly specific example and even there nurse would have to cross the entire map sometimes.
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@littlehoot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968491#Comment_3968491
I'm not talking about "optimal play" because essentially no one is playing completely and totally 'optimally'. I'm talking about what I actually see in game, which is that even if hypothetically, the doors could be used to some huge advantage for survivors, most survivors won't use them. So buffing the doors or something else to compensate for the doors would just make Springtrap utterly miserable to play against.
what you're seeing in your games is people not bothering to play better because the killer doesnt push them to do so as he is already weak enough without pushing survivors to resort to use countermechanic.
time passes and in spite of that people will realize how OP doors are for survivors.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969031#Comment_3969031
Yeah, thing is it was also main reason why it got limited duration in first place. I would rather rework it for your idea and remove time limit.
hemorrhage being on timer does not make it harder to go back to hook for it.
timer was put on mangled because solo q survivors couldnt be bothered dealing with hit&run.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969003#Comment_3969003
I would keep mangled as is, but would be cool to have this instead of hemorrhage…
Issue is to get use of hemorrhage, you kinda need to always return to unhook. This would give it some passive function instead.yeah you kinda have to return to hook with this one, but it's also very rewarding for interrupting heals across the match overall.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968850#Comment_3968850
I would imagine that the argument is that in 99% of games tunneling is a free win that requires little-to-no game sense to execute effectively.
An anti-tunnel system would thus require killers to use game sense to know when to go for spread pressure and when to tunnel in order to maximize their potential.
kinda tired of this.
idc if they remove tunnelling if they offer equally efficient alternative even if it takes more effort/skill.
so far none of that is happening and killers are literally being accused of being boosted because they dare to play efficiently in a game designed around this kind of efficient plays and the solution people are advocating for is to just forbid killers from playing efficiently with a bandaid solution to current ######### game design.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969010#Comment_3969010
Do you have a picture on what you mean?
I also didn‘t ask for anything meaningful. I asked whether we will get more Sadako, kaneki skins. I really want this skin.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7UINU6F487X7/img-6479.jpeg
there's no picture, just lore description. It'd be really dope to see the rendition of this form with blighted skin for example and, hopefully, custom voice.
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about singu's true form (pre-fire) skin we were sorta promised back in the 2023.
dont see the point in asking about design/balance/whatever
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@CrossTheSholf said:
How about we buff other gen protection/regression perks to be viable instead?
that'd be a problem because most of other gen protection/regression perks are terrible designs.
they either propagate horrible gameplay or scale disproportionately on high tier meta killers compared to everyone else.
for example, if we had DMS synergy with PR butchered, it'd be a perk used mainly by high mobility killers or artist/singularity.
perks like pop/eruption require killer to go out of their way to kick gens or reach the active gens fast enough after getting a hook which is also something higher tiers are more capable of doing.
we need BHVR to design more healthy slowdowns to be new meta or figure out how to rework existing ones.
otherwise nerfing what we have is an incredibly dumb idea.
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care to be more specific?
i cant recall any big amount of endurance in my games, unless you want to say that occasional OTRs/dead hards/styptics are "obnoxious level of endurance".
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i think it's about time mangled effect gets reworked to nullify all healing speed bonuses survivors may have.
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First billy cuz I liked the idea of running with a chainsaw and there weren't other options.
First main was nurse, I got legacy 1 on her, then I was basically "maining" whichever new killer that came out minus a few of them like huntress, spirit, twins, trickster, artist, wesker and skull merchant.
then actual 2nd and main-main killer was the singularity with second being the xenomorph, totalling together ~45% of the recorded playtime on my account.
otherwise im just playing whichever new things comes out and maybe grinding p100 on them if I like the gameplay initially or stick with them long enough, like unknown.
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the perk could highlight somehow if you're in chase with a survivor you have the most chasetime with
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@TicTac said:
The only killer who is a bit problematic is nurse. But only bc she can sometimes get a hit 5sec after the match started.
All the others are completely fine. They are only op against people who hide in unsafe places. I understand that not everyone wants to run in the killers face but then hide near a pallet and not behind a rock if you hear the tr. And pls dont go into a locker.
If were honest killer use lethal as a weak link check. Most of the time they ignore the survivor who run boldly in their face and go for the ones which are still crouching/walking in the spawn.
nurse doesnt traverse this fast.
it's blight.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968852#Comment_3968852
Barely around a corner = crouch. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Its not some insane skill ceiling only the top 5% of dbd players can get right.
it actually is because the majority of the survivors im seeing arent capable of that lmao
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OP has the right idea but blames absolutely wrong things lol
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968732#Comment_3968732
I think more than anything, this last 3 years has proven how resilient Survivors are. We expect to die most of the time, so it's naturally a bit less dramatic. But we've put up with diminishing returns to a ridiculous degree. If anti-go next was even slightly less terrible, I think it would've stayed. That's why I have very low hopes that phase 2 will actually do anything to help the game, but we'll see. You never know until it goes live.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968823#Comment_3968823
It's exhaustion. They'd rather the Killer be stuck with a bot and eat the penalty, because at the very least they aren't killing a real player. I tend to see it after a battle of attrition usually.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968863#Comment_3968863
Until the game is changed completely, it's gonna be a very slow back and forth. BHVR prides itself on its work practices, which listen—I don't think it's a net negative that devs aren't married to their projects or sleeping on the floor 2 weeks before launch anymore. But, that's a far cry from having what appears to be poor time management. I won't get into all of it, but it's obvious to me that that's likely what's going on. So we'll continue to get patches that conflict with one another or go into effect long after they're needed and promises that take years to fulfill.
We need a game that is dynamic, offers much more autonomy to players, is either conservative or liberal with the amount of busted mechanics you can use (not in the middle like it is now), and most important of all a clear direction for what the game is and what it's meant to accomplish. Realistically however, all of that is a pipe dream. At least at this point in time. So we can only hope that the pendulum swings toward something for fun sometime very soon before it moves again.
I dont think it's an issue of them refusing to crunch (not like they should, just stop making terrible changes), it's a matter of the decisions they make.
For example - they try to preserve current fundamental snowball based gameplay dynamic, but limit how well killers can snowball instead of changing it to more streamlined one with more clear mid-term goals making the game more fair for players individually. This results into all kinds of issues Im genuinely tired of talking about.
Devs keep balancing and designing the game around mandatory teamwork and efficient gentime when this doesn't work out for neither side - way too hard for bad survivors to implement, way too hard to counter when implemented by good survivors.
Make teamwork important, but not mandatory, make it so that even if you got terrible team, you can still have reasonable chances to win normally instead of playing the "throw your friends under the bus" game. Make killers rely less on "all or nothing" snowballs and stop pushing them to play for setups where they work all the match for a preparation that pays off way less than disregarding it and going straight for the kill.
They need to address not the sides playing efficiently, but the lack of fair comeback mechanics and how utterly hopeless the games can be if they got out of control way too soon. As killer you can only hope to play for maybe one-two kills if you lost two chases in a row, as survivor you basically prepare to afk stealth for hatch if the killer did get that kill way too early. It is not fun, this needs to change.
The matches need to move away from this snowball nature.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968871#Comment_3968871
Survivors' current ability to reset is very good, true, but broadly speaking that doesn't counteract the fact that many tools for enabling macro strategies have been buffed many times over.
Even without taking into account that every killer basekit buff is a direct boost to their ability to keep up pressure, we've also seen information perks buffed + introduced to help killers not waste time searching for survivors, chase perks buffed + introduced to help them end chases quicker, even some stuff like stealth perks buffed + introduced so killers can get the drop on survivors and shorten the time for the first hit in a chase.
Hell, there's even good potent answers to current reset tools. This wasn't an intentional change, but the best answer to Resurgence - Gift of Pain - is even a universal tool at the moment, every player has access to it. The whole game is encompassed by just not tunnelling, and a lot of it has been getting buffed lately.
i dont think the buffs a lot of killers receive are comparable to the nerfs they get, as I already mentioned.
sure, if we say the game is being balanced for high tiers, then yeah, Im pretty sure singularity can hold up in pubs just fine and it would stay true even after another line of broad nerfs to hit&run and slugging, the things this killer actually excels at.
but then you look at someone like springtrap (who I believe is meant to play more as ambush kind of killer than blunt chaser, but alas) or dredge, not so much.
regarding what you suggested, I already do that, but the issue is that it's not really applicable to hit&run playstyle which I personally enjoy way more than scripted and low effort chase-hook-chase. Franklin is great for that though, but it's getting nuked next patch.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968866#Comment_3968866
I'm asking because tunnelling is very decidedly not a macro strategy, and I didn't want to launch into a whole point about it without checking that is what you meant.
Assuming that tunnelling here is any variation on "chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked", of course. Some people do have much broader definitions that can cover some kinda-sorta macro oriented things.
Chasing someone off hook to capitalise on them being injured and out of position, especially with the goal of getting them dead as soon as possible, is extremely focused on just what's right in front of you. It has a long term goal, but it isn't interested in engaging with the game's wider macro until you've tilted it massively in your favour.
The macro skill expression of this game for killer is very broad and nuanced so I can't summarise all of it in one message, but the most basic, fundamental element of it is pressuring multiple survivors at once to slow down generator repair. One on hook, one in chase, one going to save, and so on. Tunnelling is the opposite of that- leaving everyone except the person you're chasing unoccupied with only a brief break for them to be unhooked.
The whole point of doing it is to get someone out ASAP, not to juggle the survivor team or create deadzones or keep up any form of pressure. You only engage with the macro after tunnelling someone out in most cases.
Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly. Tunnelling is just a balance problem, not a macro strategy.
if you put it this way, then yeah, its not very correct for me to call tunnelling macro strategy. I would call macro to be any kind of strategy you're implementing in 1v4, your gameplan overall. Focusing pressure in one point is that kind of strategy as well, because you're putting all eggs in one basket, enabling survivors corresponding methods of counteracting.
"Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly."
they are not. the few buffs you could name are outweighed by nerfs. it's incredibly difficult to "juggle survivors" when they take very little time to reset themselves, marginally delaying the critical point where you pressure culminates into a snowball and making recovering from that much easier as well.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968678#Comment_3968678
The problem is that I, like most killers, would literally never queue up for the "Play against SWFs mode." I would honestly rather them delete every slowdown perk in the game than play against someone on comms. I would play the no-swf mode even if they just took away all perks and all addons.
I would if the game was actually fair.
I actually do that already and play dbd comp.
I dont really think the actual game needs to be balanced just like that, but I do believe that fundamental design should be more competitive instead of whichever abomination we're having with a streamlined gameplay and disproportionate effort / reward for both sides depending on the skill level.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968845#Comment_3968845
I'm curious about something here- when you talk about "optimised macro strategies", and also then go on to talk about how macro strategies get nerfed and that harms certain killers disproportionately, is the implication that tunnelling is one of those macro strategies?
are you trying to imply something? yes, im talking about tunnelling as well.
it's being nerfed because "muh muh tunnelling blight/ghoul so unfair" even though a lot of other killers in the game will struggle massively against fair opposition without tunnelling to some extension, as their powers are not designed for consistently winning chases and starting new ones in record times.
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968340#Comment_3968340
I think a better way to look at it is how do we improve the quality of games to reduce the amount of times people quit? I'm hoping the phase 2 updates will solve the major issues for why survivors have terrible games and DC.
yeah, how do we improve it?
do we change the design of the game and make it more fair? do we change matmachmaking system to be more accurate at matching people of equal skill? or do we defend this till the game dies and blame people for playing the game and punish them for it by handicapping them just so we maintain the unhealthy status quo?
spoiler for phase 2 update: if they're anywhere meaningful, things will only get worse, just in a different way. if they arent, nothing will marginally change.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968350#Comment_3968350
The skill expression for crouch tech is non-existant. If you're off to the side in a scenario where you would be hit anyway might as well just press the crouch button in the off chance you shrink your hitbox enough to not get hit.
press button - no skill, know when to press the button - a lot of skill.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968825#Comment_3968825
exactly, that's the point i'm making. it wouldn't make sense for someone to oppose trivializing game sense (or, put another way, for them to promote rewarding game sense) and also to promote removing rewards for game sense.
i would hope that by the time you start accusing people of doing that, you would start reflecting and saying "hey, maybe I'm accidentally doing a goomba fallacy here. maybe the person I'm responding to here who says they want to keep skill expression is not part of the group of people that want to remove skill expression. maybe there are two distinct groups of people here"
the person in question is simultaneously advocating for removal of the reward of said skill expression.
I know who I am talking to. They are being a unreasonable. If they weren't, they'd either say they have nothing against hook counter when tunnelling is getting fixed and thus it would contribute to more healthy gameplay or they wouldn't be advocating for massive tunnelling nerfs (defending upcoming anti systems and gloating about people asking for alternatives/compensations).
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968494#Comment_3968494
these people unironically thinking the game will become better if they just massively nerf killer's macro skillcap like this
Camping, tunnelling and slugging are at the bottom end of the skill bracket, not at the cap.
somebody is missing the point.
i dont care if they nerf any of these strategies if they offer viable alternatives even if they take more effort, skill, etc. I am perfectly capable of adapting, if I wasn't, I'd be a blight main andy with 4 slowdowns.
but it's very clear this isn't the approach devs will be taking. They won't give options, they'll just make it easier to win when you would win regardless of implementing these strategies and would take away the few options you do have against tough survivors.