Ragna_Rock
Ragna_Rock
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992396#Comment_3992396
there was a new survivor and killer?
Oh yh they put out a shorts teaser about it during all the chaos.
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Because the 1v1v1v1v1 mentality was designed more for when DBD was trying to be a horror game but as the game changed the mentality has not.
Hell everyone goes by the 0-1 loss 2 tie and 3-4 win system even though the game only cares if you as an individual perform well.
So all survs can die but the one that got out still won in the games eyes, that lourie strode that hides with sole surv and left behind all match is considered a winner because they got out and no one else matters.
But having a 1v1v1v1v1 system is not compatible with the more fast paced competitive nature of the game now while still having legacy components left behind. The main core judgement of a player is still stuck in an old version of the game while people move on while the game fails to keep up, made worse by bad design by BHVR.
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All 3 twins mains are currently crying in the shower.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991577#Comment_3991577
Yeah no I just don't slug. I don't know why this info can't break through. Some people don't do it. I put them on the hook. But you don't think 90 seconds is enough pressure? That's a whole gen worth of time.
I mean cool that you're sweaty and care about some number. Who is some casual? You mean the majority of the playbase that doesn't take this game so damn serious?
I don't think you will ever understand so im not going to continue.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991545#Comment_3991545
I'm entitled yet you're mad it's mildly harder to tunnel and slug and you're crying about it.
There's no situation where you need to slug for 90 seconds. 15 or 20 to check for lurking saboteurs, sure.
My kill rate is 60%. Exactly where the game wants me to be. And I do it without those tactics. I imagine my kill rate will go up a bit as I already play fair and will be getting a buff for it.
"There's no situation where you need to slug for 90 seconds. 15 or 20 to check for lurking saboteurs, sure."
This already proves you know nothing about killer. You slug so someone has to get off gens to pick them up, that is slugging for pressure if they can pick themselves up there is no reason to get off the gen should be BASIC killer knowledge.
And I have a 80% kill rate because I have played at the levels where everyone is trying to win so I have the experience to back it up. You play at lower levels so you do not have that.
So when a casual walks in and demands the game be made easier for them because they don't like it just screams entitled.
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I know that playing soloq can be annoying (trust me ive been there ) but this is not the way to make the casual experience better.
I think what is really needed in DBD is a much better in depth tutorial of how to play the game e.g. how to loop, best times to heal, when to unhook and all of that not just here gen here killer here pallet, a link to Otzdarvas channel would be far, far better than this games "tutorial".
A communication update like a ping wheel and comms so there is a more level playing field then just having SWF and soloq in two different realms.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991511#Comment_3991511
Bro if you think being slightly limited in your use of two sleazy and heavily hated tactics is being shot in both legs then that's a you problem. No one should be on the ground for 90 seconds. And you can still tunnel. It's just not free anymore. This will have zero negative affects on me, only positives.
"It has no effect on me so that means its okay!" Least entitled dbd player.
They are only hated because they work, in some situations the smart play is to slug and now you get punished for it.
And with the anti camp update you can just unhook for free and the game actively misinforms the killer meanwhile if someone dies before 6 hook the survs get a buff for losing!?
If you truly play killer at all then you would be effected by this if not your level must be in the abyss.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991495#Comment_3991495
Killers are getting basekit buffs. Would you like an option to opt out? Wouldn't want your hand held.
Can survivors tunnel killers? Who else would be affected exactly?
A s.hitty verson of BBQ that only fast killers can take advantage of and all survs will know its there and expect it.
A small haste boost to again only benefit fast killers leaving the rest in the dust.
A gen kick boost which we don't even know the number of with gen kicking not being good anyway.
wow so amazing and all in exchange for essentially getting shot in both legs, def worth it👍️.
I would rather this update just not happen and keep both my legs.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991271#Comment_3991271
It's so weird how many killers are acting like they're tragic victims here. These measures aren't even severe. Tunneling and slugging aren't being good at eliminating. They're ways to stay bad at pressuring gens and winning chases. Like talk about refusing to become better lol
Remind me which side constantly talks about how horrible tunnelling is? For over like the games whole life span?
Oh right the professional victims on survivor.
Imagine having your hand held so hard you need like 10 base kit mechanics just to play the game.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991183#Comment_3991183
Is there like an argument you want to make against my points? Like I dont care if you never been told that using the most optimal perks, strategies and addons will make you win more easily than not using those. Ill gladly be the first to tell you that, but you I think you are just being deceitful and you already realize that.
But fine, yeah using the most optimal things is gonna bloat your MMR.
No I dont want to play with PainRes, POP and dead mans switch.I like playing inefficient, I play playing with random perks, I want to play with random addons/ offerings even.
Don't shift the goal post you said using these strats is "MMR bloat" and now you say its "most optimal perks, strategies and addons will make you win more easily than not using those. Ill gladly be the first to tell you that, but you I think you are just being deceitful and you already realize that." MMR bloat is not a thing stop making things up.
Then lets nurf anything that is optimal, no more gen rushing, no more exhaustion perks, no more second chance perks, no more looping, as that's too optimal so it should be removed👍️.
Damn I guess all Platinum players in siege just bloat their MMR.
Cool you like to play like that some like to play to win and taking away playstyles and tactics ruins any sort of competitive experience when BHVR just decide to hold the casuals hand.
You don't understand high level DBD so why do you seek to ruin it when you yourself said "I like playing inefficient" Imagine if a bronze player was dictating how plat player play just insane.
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@Emeal said:
even the strongest killers have a hard time 12 hooking
I disagree I think this is absolutely wrong, I think either people are using perks to bloat their MMR up or sweating alot themselves. Both of which will increase your MMR and get you higher MMR survivors.
If you play in a chill way, your MMR rebalances and you get chill matches. I have absolutely no issue getting 12hooks on trapper.
Ofc that would require a Killer to maybe lose some matches, which will attack ones ego.When killers sweat "EVIL DETROY THEM"
When survs sweat "I'm just playing the game lol"
Im all my years of playing pvp games I have never seen people refer to using the optimal strategies as "MMR bloating". Like imagine your playing a shooter and saying "He is using the best gun he is bloating his MMR!" No he just knows what's best.
Also 12 hooks on trapper you are playing against potatoes.
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@Ohyakno said:
People don't remember this but years ago during the one of the live streams they introduced some stuff for survivors and then someone said well we have some cool stuff for Killers too and two devs there literally rolled their eyes. Killers don't have any advocates left on the dev team and frankly I'm not sure they have anyone that understands the bones of their game and what made it successful. They're trying to ape other failed asyms by shifting power to the survivor role. How'd that work out for them?
Remember the famous civ 6 line. "Killer doesn't feel good? Just play something else!"
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990688#Comment_3990688
Don't you lose collision as survivor? How are you going to get hit? Can you still get hit without collision?
You do but the hit box does not go away so you still can.
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No you can still use it to pester the killer by running in front of them to bait a hit.
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@Phaliure said:
it's insane they even considered just not allowing you to kick gens. I guess we're all gonna have to play A tier and above if these changes go thru.
Yes, lets crank those ghoul numbers up. If they weren't sick of it before its going to get a lot worse.
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Soon its going to be Meg chasing you.
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@Caiman said:
"I'm so tired of playing against Ghoul."
Y'all about to get a lot more tired, myself included.
True, let the real Ghoul by NurseBlight begin
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Who knows if enough people leave we may end up with another 6.1.0 again.
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So true
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990110#Comment_3990110
Dude, please stop trying to defend them. They are just out of touch and the video is bad. You don't need to go down in a sinking ship and mindlessly defend everything. Honestly the fact that despite everything that's been explained and pointed out you can't admit any flaws in their video just weakens your position and makes you look so biased that there's no point in talking to you.
You are the last person who should be speaking.
Someone just tried to defend ghoul and instead of trying you just went full reddit mode and went "INVALID OPINION DETECTED"
So when it comes to bias at least im trying to explain rather then just say nope and stop, if anyone's opinion deserves consideration yours is the last.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989597#Comment_3989597
No it does not maximise killer pressure if one person is on hook. As one guy at all times should be on gens. One guy is being chased and another is unhooking.
How does it not? The scenario you're describing requires one on hook. If no one's on hook, there's one in chase and three on gens. How is that not far less pressure than one on hook, one in chase, two on gens, with one having to rescue and opening plenty of space for killer to punish?
As killer, you WANT that survivor on the hook, dying. It's better than having them on a gen, not dying.
The reason why killers tunnel someone out as fast as possible as when it is just 3 people one is being chased, one is on hook and the third is un hooking making gens slow down a ton.
Why would the third be unhooking if leaving them on the hook is so much better?
No it does not maximise killer pressure if one person is on hook. As one guy at all times should be on gens. One guy is being chased and another is unhooking."How does it not? The scenario you're describing requires one on hook. If no one's on hook, there's one in chase and three on gens. How is that not far less pressure than one on hook, one in chase, two on gens, with one having to rescue and opening plenty of space for killer to punish?"
"As killer, you WANT that survivor on the hook, dying. It's better than having them on a gen, not dying."
Now this is a strawman. Keyword MAXIMISE.
The reason why killers tunnel someone out as fast as possible as when it is just 3 people one is being chased, one is on hook and the third is un hooking making gens slow down a ton.Why would the third be unhooking if leaving them on the hook is so much better?
Because if there is only there left one on hook one down then the killer goes back to hook and win right there when there is 4 he cannot do that. Feel like that should be obvious.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989541#Comment_3989541
The only perks that can even have any kind of failure factor om that level would be Shoulder the burden, Deliverance, Background Player, Dead Hard and Conviction (If you don't have a build for it). Meanwhile you have perks that are so easy if effortless to pull of like Vigil, WIGLF, Lithe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Resurgence, MTF, Soul Guard, Do no harm, Finesse, Dramaturgy, Deja Vu and Last Stand.The video you linked spends a huge amount of time disagreeing with you and goes into detail on how survivor perks are strong with practice.
But its also missing the broader point of what it takes to make a perk useful. Take WGLF, let's say a survivor follows a chase to get in position to use it. They give up gen time to try and get the rescue. If they get spotted or don't get to the down before the pick up, they've wasted valuable time. Even if they do get the pick up, but were off gens for a lot of time, it can easily be harmful. If you only look at the action of the pick up it looks easy with little trade offs, but misses the larger context that it takes to deploy the perk.
Then you have perks like unbreakable. Again, easy to use when downed, but the usefulness is highly dependent on how the killer plays and easy to have a trial where it gets no value.
Then there are perks that always get value, such as Deja Vu, but not nearly as much value as a perk that is more situational or requires more skill.
But a lot of what separates the low tier players from higher tier players is game sense and what to follow up on, when to reset, when to commit to a gen, when to save someone.Game sense is one of the few things in the game that is true for both sides. When to pursue a chase, what gen to go to, which survivor to chase, are what separates low tier and high tier killer players as well. It really has no bearing on this issue.
you cannot compare the state of exhaustion perks to old dead hard a perk that literally was a get out of jail free cardNot only can you, you have to. You can't compare how things have changed and just ignore the 'get out of jail free' card that survivors used to have.
Also no improvements since?That's not what I said. Nerfing DH made other exhaustion perks actually viable, making it look like survivors had more good perks. That was an improvement in game design, but if old DH returned all of those perks would suddenly look pointless.
Allot of surv perks do stack in meaningful ways.Missing that I was discussing exhaustion and healing (which the video focused on), which have self limiting factors. Just because survivors have multiple options in these categories doesn't have a huge impact on balance, they make for a more fun game, but whether survivors had three good exhaustion perks or seven is not a huge issue because they're only going to run one (and if they had a broken perk like old DH that would override the variety really quickly).
So when surv perks get nurfed its "Now there is nothing left to use" when that is clearly wrong.Strawman.
You also get more tunnelling and camping to boot since going for multiple hooks is now detrimental to you all it leaves the killer with is to tunnel, camp slug even harder than before.Except that's not true. That was the argument for the strong gen defense era, but tunneling and camping where just as prevalent then, if not more, because the gen defense made the tunnel even easier.
If you insta pull me in a public game like that im going myers mori you as dwight for it.This has nothing to do with the 10 extra seconds on hook argument.
There is a giant chasm between an insta pull and getting past the 60 seconds of the old hook states.
But if you look at the bigger picture the role as whole as gotten far worse if you are not playing these top 5 killers and with every new update its only getting worse.Except the bigger picture needs both a start date and to factor everything in. We're talking survivors losing things like DH (twice), MFT, the ability to heal in chase, etc. This actually was something I noticed in the video where he briefly discussed the killer improvements he actually liked, but then ignored those as he hyper focused the discussion on clown.
The only perks that can even have any kind of failure factor om that level would be Shoulder the burden, Deliverance, Background Player, Dead Hard and Conviction (If you don't have a build for it). Meanwhile you have perks that are so easy if effortless to pull of like Vigil, WIGLF, Lithe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Resurgence, MTF, Soul Guard, Do no harm, Finesse, Dramaturgy, Deja Vu and Last Stand."The video you linked spends a huge amount of time disagreeing with you and goes into detail on how survivor perks are strong with practice."
The time I spent talking about these perks was about the failure rate trying to use it not the perk itself but the person using it. Besides that is was about how most perks don't really have any massive drawback or in the case of STB not enough. Even then the whole point I made was counter to you saying they are high risk high reward when that is not the case.
Also when it comes to WIGLF in the video he used it Infront of the killer most of the time and got value from it if that does not scream too easy then what does?
Deja Vu prevents 3 gens which is pretty strong to say otherwise is insane, 4th most used perk for a good reason (While requiring nothing to activate ).
In the video he said this.
"Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That is not an improvement to survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game.
"On the other hand, killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc."
"That's not what I said. Nerfing DH made other exhaustion perks actually viable, making it look like survivors had more good perks. That was an improvement in game design, but if old DH returned all of those perks would suddenly look pointless."
"Not only can you, you have to. You can't compare how things have changed and just ignore the 'get out of jail free' card that survivors used to have."
All exhaustion perks were viable before deadhard most just picked the easiest option. Yes if you gave back press E to avoid all damage and dash is would be best over night but I would also imagine the rate of hexes would go up if we got TOTH and Ruin at there best back as well but these do not get brought up as original ruin was out of line. The reason I say you cant compare them is due to function being something that cannot exist as its too strong.
"Game sense is one of the few things in the game that is true for both sides. When to pursue a chase, what gen to go to, which survivor to chase, are what separates low tier and high tier killer players as well. It really has no bearing on this issue."
Yes it does. When talking about game balance you need to assume a level of play to focus so a medium competent level, you are expected in a balance discussion to have an idea how to play the game.
"Missing that I was discussing exhaustion and healing (which the video focused on), which have self limiting factors. Just because survivors have multiple options in these categories doesn't have a huge impact on balance, they make for a more fun game, but whether survivors had three good exhaustion perks or seven is not a huge issue because they're only going to run one (and if they had a broken perk like old DH that would override the variety really quickly)."
I went over exhaustion already in terms of stacking, the video went on about how perks interlock with each other.
But if you need more examples for healing .
First just to lay ground rules when you increase healing is the amount of charges you do per second not reducing them so it has diminishing returns.
But at base survs heal 16sec/charges lets say you have We'll make it and just unhooked someone that cuts the time down to 8 as you heal at 2c/sec but then lets add Do no Harm to the mix and just to make things easy say it someone on death hook so 100% for a combined 200% extra speed so thats 3c/sec that comes to 5.33 secs so stacking that high is not necessary so most just run one or two healing perks to make things easier.
Anyway about perk to run Resurgence on it own is super powerful Do no harm is also great on its own but can be run with botany for extra efficiency, if you want to devote your whole build to healing Empathetic connection + We'll make it/Botany + Desperate measures/Do no harm and depending on what's more important to you Strength in shadows/Solidarity/Resurgence a really solid SoloQ build have personally had allot of success with.
But all this boils down to allot of healing that makes it so injuries do not provide any pressure or next to none for the time invested getting it.
So when surv perks get nurfed its "Now there is nothing left to use" when that is clearly wrong."Strawman."
Strawman but does not include the second bit hmm. And you said yourself
"Then you have things like exhaustion and healing perks. Yes, survivors have lots of options, but primarily because BHVR has made them
extremely hard to stack in meaningful ways. Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That isnot an improvementto survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game.""On the other hand,
killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc.""And on the issue of gen regression perks since 6.1, the meta at the time was overpowered and incredibly stale. Yes, many things have been nerfed since then, but it was
desperately needed.""Hard to stack meaningfully" "Not an improvement" "Killer perks stack" "The killer perk nurfs where desperately needed"
This shows you do not think that there has been meaningful improvement with surv perks and that they do not stack meanwhile killer perks are easy to stack and provide value when that is not true.
Not all hexs provide the value to your build, some gen regression/defence perks conflict and not all aura reading is acquired the same way and may be better for some worse for others.
You also get more tunnelling and camping to boot since going for multiple hooks is now detrimental to you all it leaves the killer with is to tunnel, camp slug even harder than before."Except that's not true. That was the argument for the strong gen defense era, but tunneling and camping where just as prevalent then, if not more, because the gen defense made the tunnel even easier."
Ok if that's the case why do people not run DS, OTR or Reassurance more often? Despite is being so common? Nightlight shows that these perks that hard counter tunnelling dont have as high pick rate to reflect that.
Even in the video he talks about bringing STB a lot and getting value out of it even with solos.
If you insta pull me in a public game like that im going myers mori you as dwight for it."This has nothing to do with the 10 extra seconds on hook argument."
"There is a giant chasm between an insta pull and getting past the 60 seconds of the old hook states."
Besides the clear memeing. Its an exaggeration saying that you dont pull to early as you may be giving the killer free reign to interrupt and possibly get back to hook and tunnel. With the old 60 sec system you had to be in position to unhook quicker but now with the extra time it make proxying more risky as well as giving someone more time in "time out" before being back in the game and be able to die again.
But if you look at the bigger picture the role as whole as gotten far worse if you are not playing these top 5 killers and with every new update its only getting worse."Except the bigger picture needs both a start date and to factor everything in. We're talking survivors losing things like DH (twice), MFT, the ability to heal in chase, etc. This actually was something I noticed in the video where he briefly discussed the killer improvements he actually liked, but then ignored those as he hyper focused the discussion on clown."
6.1.0 is the start date and we hit critical mass in the FNAF chapter(9.0.0). Again it was slow and gradual and nothing was even noted until around Dracula's chapter so if you want a date of when you would start to feel it it would be 8.2.0.
The reason Clown was brought up was due to it being recent but even then he talks about Huntress, Singularity and Vecna being made easier but not more powerful as the range of their capability's is about the same. And going back to clown his old rework when they first added the yellow bottles is a good rework allowing for play he was not able to do before hand.
Killers also lost odd meta perks now and then like Thrill of the Hunt which is again brought up in the video.
Your whole speal reads like your trying to find the wrong points or take thing out of context.
So I'm only going to do this a final time.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989541#Comment_3989541
People should never just insta unhook I see this happen in lobby's and when I am playing surv its really annoying when you do that. When someone is on hook they are INVINCIBLE and cannot be touched anymore meaning you can leave them there untill last second to pull and the killer cannot stop you. The only time you pull early is if a second person goes down but at that point you are already failing horribly and the killer is demolishing your team or if you know the killer is somewhere else and cannot stop the unhooker.
But the only two states you're describing here are 'do not unhook ever', but if you do that and the killer gets a second down before you've unhooked, you immediately switch to 'you should've already unhooked'.
Yeah, obviously hookbombing is bad, but leaving someone on hook also maximises the killer's pressure and slowdown. So many people insist that the best thing for killer to do is to make it 1v3 as fast as possible, but when the hook timers are mentioned, it's paradoxically also best for survivors to maximise the 1v3 time?
No it does not maximise killer pressure if one person is on hook. As one guy at all times should be on gens. One guy is being chased and another is unhooking.
Just as a baseline when im talking about this is assuming you can hold your own in loops like 40-45sec minimum plus the time it takes for the killer to find the next person which could be anywhere between 10-20 secs.
Its not a paradox as the guy on hook is still in the game and will still need to be dealt with. You need to have the game sense to be able to know when you unhook early and having someone healthy to force the unhook.
The reason why killers tunnel someone out as fast as possible as when it is just 3 people one is being chased, one is on hook and the third is un hooking making gens slow down a ton.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989406#Comment_3989406
Others have already answered this, but I'll throw a couple of points on.
A lot of the video is a non-sequitur to the title. He talks about the merits of rewarding skill expression (skill floor vs skill ceiling) and whether it is good or bad that some things are made easier and more accessible. That's basically a discussion on a different topic.
On skill expression he also makes the mistake many players do of only being able to judge the survivors off what they see. Survivors do have perks that are high risk / high reward, but if you only focus on the time that survivors pull it off you're missing the point. It would be like watching a few minutes of a basketball game and seeing a team not miss a single 3 pointer and concluding 3 pointers are too strong. You need to take the entire picture into account, successes and failures, and be aware that streaks of everything going right, or wrong, will happen.
Perks: he doesn't address a few of the major things here. Perks are primarily what the survivors have to make them distinct. Killers have powers that provide them uniqueness. With 40 killers and only one type of survivor, perks on killer are always going to face the fact that if a killer perk is broken on even a single killer, then the perk is broken.
Additionally, when he lays out what the survivors can do, there's lots of 'ifs' (he does touch on the randomness issue a bit). You can bring a strong anti-tunnel build, but if someone else is tunneled, nothing to help. You can bring anti-slug, but if not slugged, useless. Lots of his examples of builds survivors can run actually highlight how many strategies killers have and the difficulty of survivors on trying to guess what they might run into.
Then you have things like exhaustion and healing perks. Yes, survivors have lots of options, but primarily because BHVR has made them extremely hard to stack in meaningful ways. Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That is not an improvement to survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game.
On the other hand, killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc.
And on the issue of gen regression perks since 6.1, the meta at the time was overpowered and incredibly stale. Yes, many things have been nerfed since then, but it was desperately needed.
Hook stages: he compares these to gen times, which BHVR has also down, but they aren't close to equal. Unless the killer is camping, leaving the survivor on hook is always going to be a bad idea. On the other hand, 10 extra seconds is a minimum of 50 extra charges the survivors have to complete. One was an absolute nerf to survivors in literally every game, one was a nerf to killers in limited situations (which is how a lot of killer nerfs go, 3 genning, AFC, etc. are nerfs in situational circumstances).
Basically: like a lot of these takes, he compares unalike things. He imagines a killer playing a weaker killer hitting a survivor team running all meta and that meta being executed against the strategy the killer pursues. But that's not a fair comparison. If you want to talk about the extreme maximum sweatiness end of things, you have to do it for both sides.
"On skill expression he also makes the mistake many players do of only being able to judge the survivors off what they see. Survivors do have perks that are high risk / high reward, but if you only focus on the time that survivors pull it off you're missing the point. It would be like watching a few minutes of a basketball game and seeing a team not miss a single 3 pointer and concluding 3 pointers are too strong. You need to take the entire picture into account, successes and failures, and be aware that streaks of everything going right, or wrong, will happen."
The only perks that can even have any kind of failure factor om that level would be Shoulder the burden, Deliverance, Background Player, Dead Hard and Conviction (If you don't have a build for it). Meanwhile you have perks that are so easy if effortless to pull of like Vigil, WIGLF, Lithe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Resurgence, MTF, Soul Guard, Do no harm, Finesse, Dramaturgy, Deja Vu and Last Stand.
There are more but that should be enough to show most do not require much to get value, with the worst offenders giving the player an instant get out jail free card in a lot of situations.
"Additionally, when he lays out what the survivors can do, there's lots of 'ifs' (he does touch on the randomness issue a bit). You can bring a strong anti-tunnel build, but if someone else is tunneled, nothing to help. You can bring anti-slug, but if not slugged, useless. Lots of his examples of builds survivors can run actually highlight how many strategies killers have and the difficulty of survivors on trying to guess what they might run into."
Yes the game has a lot of RNG, a killer can bring hex perks into a game but they may get cleansed two second into the game and now you have no perk. Your not always going to get the value out of what you bring. But a lot of what separates the low tier players from higher tier players is game sense and what to follow up on, when to reset, when to commit to a gen, when to save someone.
"Then you have things like exhaustion and healing perks. Yes, survivors have lots of options, but primarily because BHVR has made them extremely hard to stack in meaningful ways. Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That is not an improvement to survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game."
"On the other hand, killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc"
No Lithe, SB, balanced landing and so on are all really great perks the first two being hard meta, you cannot compare the state of exhaustion perks to old dead hard a perk that literally was a get out of jail free card when they were always viable its just dead hard was leagues stronger. Also no improvements since?
A lot of survs run Windows, SB/Lithe, vigil and either resurgence, resilience or finesse and that if all you want is just chase perks there are builds for pretty much everything.
Or you can run Dramaturgy and finesse another powerful combo then there is SB+Vigil+Fixated+COL a very powerful chase build that makes the already high uptime of SB even more available. Meanwhile killer has gen defence and aura reading that's it.
Allot of surv perks do stack in meaningful ways.
"And on the issue of gen regression perks since 6.1, the meta at the time was overpowered and incredibly stale. Yes, many things have been nerfed since then, but it was desperately needed."
So when surv perks get nurfed its "Now there is nothing left to use" when that is clearly wrong. Then you nurf all killer gen defence without introducing any alternative its "oh but it was needed". You also get more tunnelling and camping to boot since going for multiple hooks is now detrimental to you all it leaves the killer with is to tunnel, camp slug even harder than before.
"Hook stages: he compares these to gen times, which BHVR has also down, but they aren't close to equal. Unless the killer is camping, leaving the survivor on hook is always going to be a bad idea. On the other hand, 10 extra seconds is a minimum of 50 extra charges the survivors have to complete. One was an absolute nerf to survivors in literally every game, one was a nerf to killers in limited situations (which is how a lot of killer nerfs go, 3 genning, AFC, etc. are nerfs in situational circumstances)."
If you insta pull me in a public game like that im going myers mori you as dwight for it.
People should never just insta unhook I see this happen in lobby's and when I am playing surv its really annoying when you do that. When someone is on hook they are INVINCIBLE and cannot be touched anymore meaning you can leave them there untill last second to pull and the killer cannot stop you. The only time you pull early is if a second person goes down but at that point you are already failing horribly and the killer is demolishing your team or if you know the killer is somewhere else and cannot stop the unhooker.
"Basically: like a lot of these takes, he compares unalike things. He imagines a killer playing a weaker killer hitting a survivor team running all meta and that meta being executed against the strategy the killer pursues. But that's not a fair comparison. If you want to talk about the extreme maximum sweatiness end of things, you have to do it for both sides."
He did talk about this, that is why he said the power creep for surv has gone unnoticed because of the recent killers all being powerful untill the FNAF chapter when people started to take notice at the new killer was not great compared to Dracula and Ghoul. But if you look at the bigger picture the role as whole as gotten far worse if you are not playing these top 5 killers and with every new update its only getting worse.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989344#Comment_3989344
I saw that video, it didn't make a lick of sense. Talks about how critically important time efficiency is and subsequently claims that the game got harder for killer because 70 second hookstates means survs will just leave someone on hook.
What? Did you even fully watch it?
The video was not just about how Hook times being buffed added 80sec of extra time to do gens (which kind of invalidated the gen time increase), heal or whatever but that was not the only point made. The video went into detail about the slow addition of powerful perks has made things harder and that the best perks for killer are all nurfed into the ground.
Gen regression outside of DMS+PR is pointless, all anti-heal is so weak its next to useless and perks used to counter or make certain actions more difficult like franklins being nuked so no counter to items then there was the knockout change to make slugging more difficult then the mangled changes to make hit and run worse.
Meanwhile survs have perks that are all powerful on their own and also synergise with one another like vigil feeding into shoulder the burden into resurgence into conviction into soul guard into unbreakable. Killers just don't have same choice for powerful perks that the survivor role has.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989344#Comment_3989344
Watched that and it's hilariously out of touch.
How
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I think pixel bush did a great video on about it.
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Shattered Hope should be base kit its insane they can boon more than once considering Boon/Hex totems are supposed to be high risk reward but there is no risk when you can just relight the thing.
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@KeefCheif said:
We need a social credit system in the game. If you behave like a toxic a** then your social credit will tank.
Then they can make it so that you only match with people that have a similar social credit. Good players get other good players while the toxic sheets enjoy matches with one another >:D
- obviously not practical, but would be nice in a perfect world
"yes comrade killer your social credit it too low now you will be sentenced to 50 matches of comp swf"
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988652#Comment_3988652
Several points: -
- Footsteps are loud yes, but he is a ranged killer, footsteps only matter when you are in range to hear them. Also footsteps don't matter if you are going through doors, and considering they are all right next to the gens, sometimes less that 4m away, it's moot lost of teh time. Then there is also Glitchtrap, that is much quieter.
- Easy to pre-run, despite no tell (unlees youre staring at door)? You're telling me all 3 survivors on gens come off and run once one player is hooked in case he comes through the door? That's great passive slowdown if true, and a non point if they don't. Do please tell me how you pre-run a character you mostly can't tell is coming or not.
- 4.4 is faster than 3.8 if my maths is correct, not even counting STs teleport, so yes Springtrap has better map mobility than Ghost Face... I'm not sure why you even contest this point.
- Cooldown is not that long for ST at all, and you can choose to be 4.6 whenever you like. It takes less than a second to recall your axe and inflicts no movement penalty doing so, just throw it and then walk around at 4.6, recall it when you need it.
- There are plenty of perks he can take to be more potent in chase, such as Hex: Blood Favour and a general hex build, he is unironically solid with Bamboozle as again he can be 4.6 until he devides not to be, and I've seen people find success with the likes of Knockout to make running pallets much harder. His slow upon throwing is shortlived, and the need to dodge him requires a hard bank from survivor, that on Huntress is mitigated by the fact she is 4.4... ST is not 4.4, so he can use perks to effectively cut off loops paths, zone and walk people down. As I said not Unga Bunga good, but certainly a power you can build and adapt around.
- Springtrap has some crazy trickshot potential with hit Axe arc and can score hits over tiles that other killers bar Pyramid Head simply cannot. You make a big point about Huntress and 4.4m/s, but Huntress players have had years to master her, and the Axes do both behave quite different. Springtrap has only been out a couple of months, we're not really comparing apples to apples here.
Not weak at all, is he Blight tier? No. Is he Spirit tier? Probably not. Is he Wesker/Unknown tier... starting to look about right. He's better than Huntress, I know that much, and last I checked, she wasn't exactly in Myers tier.
"Ranged killer" His axe does about 12 meters total and is obvious when he goes for long throws. Most other ranged/mid-ranged killers are able to go farther than that or get a trade off of a easier to hit power spring trap has neither of this.
So you say it does not matter about sound as the doors are "4M" away from gens but then go on to say that there is no tell despite just saying there is last point. Yes there are tells the door and the ambiance also if that all fails and you still just turn your brain off and lay into the gen most exhaustion perks will get you far away.
So as ghost face do you just stay in crouch the whole game? Even when looping? No. Don't try to say that crouched silent ghost face is comparable to loud stomping springtrap.
Yh you can ditch the axe if you want to but then you have no power and may need it in a moments notice the surv isnt just going to give you an easy set up.
Wind up may be faster (If we are talking strictly huntress) but the slow down from a throw is debilitating.
You then even if you hit have to wait an insane amount of time before you can throw again no other killer has to deal with this.
Yh if you want to talk about perks we are in the middle of a meta with fast healing and SB/Vigil which hard counters him. Most springtraps use mindbreaker to even have a chance and even then vigil essentially waves any exhaustion away.
Trickshot are not optimal you should not be going for trickshots in a game where you want to win as its a huge gamble and just a wase of time its for flair not function to do so as to hit a target would essentially require them to be pathing super obvious and be on autopilot.
Also if you want to further compare huntress to springtrap the projectiles they both use are different hit boxes as the hitbox for huntress is the size of a basketball and the axe is far smaller and thinner so small that you can hide in a corner and crouch as surv and the axe is likely to go THROUGH you.
Also pyramid head can shoot through walls and has a much more forgiving area of effect AND when he misses can got for another shot quickly none of which spring trap cannot do.
He is weak. When going against any team who have even one active braincell he is so predictable and slow while being hard countered in the current meta.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988524#Comment_3988524
I'm sure the fact that he's a popular character and played by players who normally don't play killer, and even if they do, don't normally play ranged killers has nothing to do with it. By the same logic, Nurse is weak as she only 3 places higher, and Pig is one of the best killers in the game.
I myself am on console and can make perfectly fine use of his abilities.
- He has a unlimited no-cooldown TP with no limiting factors from survivors to hold a 3 gen anywhere on the map. A far better version of Xenomorph in this regard.
- He has a long lasting stealth that let's him get close for hits easily, especially as a stealth killer not mitigatedby usual movement penalties. He moves at 4.4m/s (and instantaneous teleport) compared to Pig and Ghost Face's 4.0m/s and 3.8m/s. Heck his mobility even beats Wraith in this regard.
- He can zone and go for hits during locked animations just as well as Huntress can, and he becomes 4.6m/s afterwards. Even if you miss, you can just throw and go for m1 hits, and often your zone can leave survivors in positions they can be m1'd.
Even if I flubb my axes on repeat, just my global presence, stealth and 4.6m/s m1 skills with perk synergy is already solid... someone with a strong axe game can be a demon on him...
He is good by any metric, has incredible control of the macro game and a solid skill ceiling. Yes he isn't unga bunga good, where you can force hits whenever you want, you do actually need to know what youre doing... but he's absolutely not weak by any stretch of the imagination.
"Long lasting stealth" His footstep are so loud you have to be deaf to not hear him coming.
His teleport is to set location and so easy to pre-run, better than wraith?! You must be smoking something good because I do not see how set teleports beat fast movement.
Also faster than Ghostface what are you even on about when he stalks? First ghostface is already one of the worst killers in the game if not the worst and he shouldn't be facestalking in chase anyway you supposed to 99 it to then tap it right Infront of them.
Meanwhile big robotic bunny man stomping around isnt going to surprise anybody except meg heads.
if you are flubbing your axes constantly and getting value still you are going against actual NPCs. In what universe should a ranged killer get punished so hard for missing when every other killer form huntess, trickster, artist, nemesis, pyramid head, xeno, unknown, etc do not have to wait as long just to try again, and bear in mind most exept huntress are all 115 the 110 is outdated.
No he is weak, he is sharing a spot with ghost face and trickster both bad killers in the bottom 3
He is slow with a weak ranged attack that when used makes him a M1. His teleports are predictable and abuseable by the surv side. His stealth is weak because he is so loud.
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Bottom 3 kill rate 😭poor spingus
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Killer agency is continuingly being removed or down played every update.
Injuring people means little now as there are so many ways to heal fast.
Gen regression means nothing as it has been over nurfed.
Hooking is a problem as it often just gives survs access to their most powerful perks (For losing).
Slugging is a massive gamble now as there are so many way to counter it, so is not reliable for pressure.
Tunnelling can massively backfire due to Anti-Tunnel perks having some of the most busted effects in the game.
Far too little agency for the killer and way too much for the surv role.
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Tribalism
Red team shakes stick at blue, then blue shakes spear at red, then red shakes a sword at blue and it just escalates.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987997#Comment_3987997
I know the queue is double what it used to be, but what about MY fun?
yh because this whole discussion was about survs problems but have the audacity to say that killers have problems with 2v8 too is inconceivable!!!
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987876#Comment_3987876
especially after essentially gutting guide to be a troll class, they somehow can gut survivor items and classes but not killers, unless everyone keeps dcing against them for 2 years straight, makes sense bhvr.
ahh yes because insta-heals, on demand sprint burst and the ability to rebuild god pallets isnt op
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987920#Comment_3987920
Im just curious, have you tried maybe using common sense in game?
Impossible!
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Her kill rate is far too low so really we should be giving nurse back her omega blinks and 7 blink add-ons to compensate for the clear overkill nurfs of this underpowered killer.
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But we cant forget A
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yep because the whole 1v1v1v1v1 mentality is still in the games core loop since its days as an actual horror game and has not been changed from it as far as the game is concerned you can be as selfish or altruistic as you want, but the game only really cares if you make it not if the others do.
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@champzaza007 said:
I think boons should be nerfed, not buffed.
Not by nerfing their effects, but by limiting the number of times you can bless.For example: only 5 blessings per match, or only 1 blessing per totem.
This
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Yh its constantly appearing in every match the most used surv perk.
Its essentially an auto-pilot for people who don't want to pay attention at worst and at best it gives crucial in the moment information with no down sides.
But like with vigil for some reason powerful perks like this dont have conditions or down sides.
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We must nurf pig balance must be restored with the spaghetti code.
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Springtrap's (The Animatronic) Biggest Power Flaw (Security Doors) and Ideas to Improve it — BHVR
This was an idea posted a bit ago that didnt get much attention but I still think would be great.
But yh I am disappointed with springtrap as well.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980584#Comment_3980584
If survivors had a perk called screw you and it automatically finished all five gens the second you loaded into the game with no downsides would it be toxic to bring it? After all they are just playing a perk they like.
Also having precognition and knowing you will be camped and tunneled ahead of time is not humanly possible.Considering its the only thing a lot of people complain about would suggest it happens often.
"If survivors had a perk called screw you and it automatically finished all five gens the second you loaded into the game with no downsides would it be toxic to bring it? After all they are just playing a perk they like."
First one is a perk that gives a free win against a power that gives you speed there is quite a difference, sorry if your not good enough to realise this.
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I really want a killer that takes advantage of deep sea themes. Like the map is covered in a thin layer of water that when you look down its infinite and the killer can just pop up from the deep at any moment.
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Control would be cool just anything but another dash killer.
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@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980434#Comment_3980434
My MMR is average, so I'm facing average players… at least until I escape a few times in a row. But I'm usually in the middle. Just because people are higher MMRs, who always play meta crap, only play a few Killers doesn't mean it's because every other Killer is bad or that Survivors are good - it's because those Killers are still meta because of how broken they are.
Yes because survivors never play meta oh wait.
Meta just means that its the best choice if you want to win if its not being used because its not meta than its clearly not as effective. This is why we have Ghoul by NurseBlight because the other killers are not as effective.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980440#Comment_3980440
Any killer who tunnels gets free wins because there's no actual counterplay now that they gutted fog vials since high mobility killers can cross most maps in less than five seconds to tunnel the unhooked survivor.
Decisive strike, Off the record, Reassurance, Shoulder the burden, Dead hard and Base kit borrowed time. The 40sec timer allows you to slam gens when someone is on hook. There is counter play.
"Oh no… don't go… what would we do without toxic tryhards playing broken killers?"
Its toxic for people to play a killer they like? No its toxic to expect the other side to play by your imaginary rule set.
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@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980429#Comment_3980429
They're playing them because those Killers are broken and are free wins. I've seen plenty of other Killers who perform just fine but don't have high mobility.
Then you are at low mmr or just get weaker match ups.
When I play surv and I get a soloq lobby with competent teammates most killers who are not nurse, blight or ghoul just DC after the first 3 gens are done with no pressure.