Ragna_Rock
Ragna_Rock
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@Foggyguy said:
Yep, which is why we need to nerf the broken killers so people will actually play the others. God I hate ghoul.
No that would just get people to stop playing the game.
People are playing killers like nurse, ghoul or blight because their fast abilities allow them to keep up with the current fast paced state of the game. Other killers especially more macro intensive killers just cant keep up.
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Singularity is my main love his playstyle, character and power.
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@PizzaDweet said:
Please, I want to face these killers. I haven't played against them for months/a year!
You haven't seen them in a year? I haven't seen doc in nearly 2 years missed like 50 appointments.
But the problem with this game is that it just has become a super fast paced nightmare and the only killers to be able to keep up are like the top 5 (dash killers) and that's why we have Ghoul by NurseBlight, macro playstyles just not as much of a focus anymore too much power creep.
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Moderation of a chat system is going to be needed its just the defacto expectation with multiplayer games that you will get bad actors and for the first month I would imagine it would be at its worst but over time most of it will settle down as the worst offenders would get banned setting the precedent that it is not tolerable to be toxic on comms.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453247/dbd-needs-comms
It'd be a nice option, but it would make survivors way more powerful if your teammates have good comms [Clock callouts memorized, calls death spots with deja (deja vu is a must in any team tbh. Knowing what gens need to be done first for the whole team is important), finding teammates without the need for aura perks, etc...]
I know it would make them more powerful and I would expect massive killer buffs to go with it the main goal of it is to bring the balance sphere in to one instead of SWF v Soloq as balancing for the two is going to always fail so for the future of the game I think trying to even out the power as much as possible, even if a 4stack with better chemistry will still do better, just trying to close the gap as I think a ping wheel can only do so much.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978941#Comment_3978941
The former is a lie based on your sentiments about DS and the endgame. The latter is one-sided.
Now, not that I think you care, but the ideal situation would be a stronger endgame for both sides (instead of shutting off everything for one and not the other to encourage consolation kills) or conversely a weaker one where everything is shut off for everybody. Likewise, to combat dodging before the trial since we've made it impossible to do during the trial, the wise choice moving forward would be to rework the lobby screen so that you're locked in and can't abandon. Maybe even lock in your builds so you can't change them around. Personally, I think that would be frustrating for many, but it would be fair.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979057#Comment_3979057
For me it's more that I think its influence was overstated. Not that I don't think it could've been worked on, but that gutting it the way that they did along with everything else to chase was a bad call. Although I guess it's neither here nor there since its pick rate hasn't gone down much despite what they've done.
"The former is a lie based on your sentiments about DS and the endgame. The latter is one-sided."
If you cannot accept that DS giving a free escape was a bad thing then just peak delusion.
"Now, not that I think you care, but the ideal situation would be a stronger endgame for both sides (instead of shutting off everything for one and not the other to encourage consolation kills) or conversely a weaker one where everything is shut off for everybody. Likewise, to combat dodging before the trial since we've made it impossible to do during the trial, the wise choice moving forward would be to rework the lobby screen so that you're locked in and can't abandon. Maybe even lock in your builds so you can't change them around. Personally, I think that would be frustrating for many, but it would be fair."
First if you want end game perks adrenaline and hope are far more fair that old DS was as the killer still has a chance and was not free so there is stuff for both sides for an easier endgame.
But the match has not started yet why would you lock someone in? Locking in perks and items in lobby that sounds like a miserable idea and if you want right now you can switch last second to the build you want to trick the killer if you wanted to. The whole point of a pregame lobby is to make final adjustments to your build, to lock people in is just insane why even have a pre-game lobby then?
To fix your problem with killers dodging lobby's you want to make the game miserable for an issue so small is just insanity.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978666#Comment_3978666
Well, it's good for you then that going next is out of the game but lobby dodging for Killer is still in. Despite them serving the exact same function, as I said.
Also bad takes on the perks so I'm not going to bother replying to that.
I think giving people free wins is horrible take. And lobby dodgers are not the same not even close to people who dc in the middle of a game to claim otherwise is pure delusion.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977654#Comment_3977654
Going next is the equivalent of lobby dodging, just during the trial because it can't be done before the trial for Survivor (proportionally as far as avoiding your opponent I mean). The queue is still rolling and trials are still playing out. When the queue stops moving, it's a different story entirely. And that is what happened with Killer.
But was it free? No. Was it game-breaking? No. It could be baited out, which was part of its interactivity. A lot of Survivors picked it to gain an advantage and would blow it too early or bump into walls as well. Using it to bait a whiff wasn't the ideal play after hit detection favored Killer. That's why I mention pallets because that's what the biggest complaint over time became. Much like how the community decided that DS was finally in a healthy position as THE anti-tunnel perk, but then on a dime had to be nerfed because using it to escape the trial was considered free and unfair when it was far from being either.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977556#Comment_3977556
This is where I get hung up ultimately. Is that for the longest time it's been generally accepted that the difficulty goes Solo Q → Killer → SWF. So naturally, you'd want to find some way to draw Solo and SWF together and then go from there right? But instead we've focused so much on trying to bring every Killer to an average level, without any variation in between, and then make them viable at every skill level against SWFs without much regard to Solos. And any time that shifts, we have to snap it back.
It's what makes these discussions very difficult to have, because how can we really agree that the role that never suffered quite to the same extent as one portion of players is the most important while that portion of players continue to suffer? Even while the KR proves that SWF is starting to get knocked down a peg as well, the conversation stays the exact same.
"Going next is the equivalent of lobby dodging, just
duringthe trial because it can't be donebeforethe trial for Survivor (proportionally as far as avoiding your opponent I mean). The queue is still rolling and trials are still playing out. When the queue stops moving, it's a different story entirely. And that is what happened with Killer."No its not it going in to the match you queued up for and going "Im not having fun" leaving ruining everyone else's fun, in any other PVP multiplayer game this behaviour would get you banned I dont see why we have to people should have to tolerate it here. When you start the game I think its the bare minimum to expect someone to play the game they queued up to play and if they want to wase everyone's time they should get banned. If a game is so bad you quit all the time stop playing its unhealthy.
"But was it free? No. Was it game-breaking? No. It could be baited out, which was part of its interactivity. A lot of Survivors picked it to gain an advantage and would blow it too early or bump into walls as well. Using it to bait a whiff wasn't the ideal play after hit detection favored Killer. That's why I mention pallets because that's what the biggest complaint over time became. Much like how the community decided that DS was finally in a healthy position as THE anti-tunnel perk, but then on a dime had to be nerfed because using it to escape the trial was considered free and unfair when it was far from being either."
I assume this is about Dead Hard. First when talking about balance who cares about the people who cant use it properly, why would anyone want feedback on dead hard from someone who always misses? No when used at a competent level it was always used for mainly for distance you could cause a wiff but the main purpose was to DH for distance and was uncounterable and always led to chase time being massively over extended all for what pressing E was about as close to FREE as you can get.
Using DS to escape a trial was not unfair for you? Im sorry but if there was any evidence you don't play killer much if at all its that. Why should you get to escape just because you have a perk and that's it, do you really feel like you deserved that win? All you had to do was get off hook and now your invincible for 60sec and can just leave and the killer cannot stop you, even slugging would not work as you can still crawl to the exit gate.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Meanwhile, iri hatchets, and iri pinkie finger got the charges forced down to 1, and I haven’t seen anyone using them since those nerfs happened.
It’s fairly normal for killer iri addons to get super nerfed.
And survivors absolutely will complain about overperforming killer iri addons until they get nerfed.
So there really shouldn’t be an expectation that survivor iri addons need to be powerful.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978625#Comment_3978625
I’ve refused to play killer this entire patch because of fog vials, and my survivor queue times have been absolutely horrible all week.
This so much.
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If you know chucky is going to use his power why would you use it!?
And yes its still powerful as when you use it you cannot be mind gamed by the killer when using it. The only killers with natural on demand undetectable are Ghostface, Skullmerchant, Wraith, Springtrap, pig, sadako and chucky. Thats 7 out of 40.
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What do you mean override? He still hit you and other killers can do this too in basement like huntress hit once for endurance removal hit again to down. I dont see why this is a springtrap specific thing.
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If your going against a stealth killer have you though about NOT using it? The key does not just activate on its own, its not like your forced to use it when they have undetectable.
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Wot
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New Streetwise is still really good wish there was an option for both but with the new if you get a commodious or a engineer toolbox its still enough to finish an entire gen (And that's when working properly).
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I think having country flags in the game would be great some people take pride in where they come from or the history of their nation and there is noting wrong with that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977357#Comment_3977357
Friday the 13th was remembered for having massive queue time problems, server instability, ragequitters that instantly ended the game for everyone else, and trolls that would sabotage their own team.
"Quit as in stop queuing up entirely. The only thing that has made Survivor do that in the last 3 years is the go next prevention, ironically. Unless you disagree that Killers were queuing much less in year 6, to the point devs had to intervene with the meta shakeup."
Survs have been quitting for a long time, just because most kept requeuing to only quit again the next match. I don't see why they have to full stop playing if they are still mentally checked out and no longer want to play. Leaving the game if its no fun is a good choice, continuing to q up even if your not having fun is addiction and is very unhealthy.
"Dead Hard wasn't exactly free either, though. It was probably the most unfair against Trapper and it could've been tuned down to make pallets more of a toss-up. But that also would've required changes to how Killer works with pallets too. Instead, they just heavily nerfed it twice. The only reason we still see it, in my opinion, is because it's one of the very few skill expression perks for Survivor and players really take to that element of it. MFT I don't even wanna get into."
Dead hard allowed you to doge EVERYTHING the whole roster was effected and that is if you even use it like that the most common and smart way to use it was to dash for distance to make it to a pallet or vault and extend the chase beyond when it should of ended all because of E. I would say it still very strong today I use it when the killer has to swing to extend the effect, like just making it to a pallet the killer has to swing and if not I still extend chase by dropping the pallet.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976904#Comment_3976904
Old MFT nearly killed the game as it made playing anything but blight and nurse painful as the 3% was enough to get an extra run at a lot of loops the dev recognised this and did the 6.1 patch to make killer less miserable.
MFT came well after 6.1. Did you mean something else?
Changed it.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976413#Comment_3976413
It doesn't matter how much you level a Survivor. If you're more invested in Killer, then that's where your bias will lie. The only way to get through that is to look at the game objectively.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976415#Comment_3976415
I don't think it would. We've convinced ourselves that comms would somehow be terrible for DBD, but it's the standard for any PVP game like this. It's an important part of teamwork that's missing and that's why players do it externally.
To be totally fair too, Killers are more fragile than Survivors. I don't mean that in a snotty way, but if I've noticed anything in the last 3 years, it's that Survivors will continue to queue up for the worst experiences while Killer won't. I'm not really sure how to make the game more balanced while avoiding that loss in the process.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976417#Comment_3976417
And even with Dead Hard, they just pulled a 180. Survivors could use it to win a palette race, so they nerf it and make it so Killers can win the palette race instead with a lunge. It's like they're allergic to a 50/50 chance when it comes to changes.
"To be totally fair too, Killers are more fragile than Survivors. I don't mean that in a snotty way, but if I've noticed anything in the last 3 years, it's that Survivors will continue to queue up for the worst experiences while Killer won't. I'm not really sure how to make the game more balanced while avoiding that loss in the process."
How else is this not a snotty thing? Its pure us vs them.
Also survs never quit before!? Are we playing the same game? The dev had to put in a "go next" prevention system because they keep giving up.
"And even with Dead Hard, they just pulled a 180. Survivors could use it to win a palette race, so they nerf it and make it so Killers can win the palette race instead with a lunge. It's like they're allergic to a 50/50 chance when it comes to changes."
Old Dead Hard nearly killed the game as it made playing anything but blight and nurse painful as the dash was enough to get an extra run at a lot of loops the dev recognised this and did the 6.1 patch to make killer less miserable.
Old MFT nearly did the same as it meant you could extend chases with the 3% which gave the same value as old DH.
(This is an edit got the two mixed up the pallet race part made me think of MFT over DH)
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976711#Comment_3976711
First when I was talking about the gen math that was under the assumption that they were being inefficient it does not always take 20 sec to run to a gen sometimes it can take a little as 5 but you only have a problem with this math when it calculated for killer hooks?Both sides can argue lopsided scenarios, but looking at this one:
20 seconds isn't out there. Survivors should be splitting up. Just going from one gen to the next immediate gen is an easy way to give a killer a favorable end game. Likewise there are things that can reasonably slow down survivors getting to gens: such as having to find them or waiting for the killer/the chase to move away from the gen.
On the other hand, the 8x15 is the absolute worst case scenario, far more of a hypothetical than anything that would actually happen.
I was taking equal inefficiently on both sides into account realistically a lot of survs carry a gen perk and don't take more than 10 sec to get to the next gen especially if they are more competent.This links to what you posted at the end of what your earlier post: yes, survivors can narrow down the time to get to gens, but what do they give up for it? Healing others, self-heal, anti-tunnel, chase, anti-tunnel for a teammate, anti-slug, info perks? They can't be everything.
(Also love how you leave out the gen math)There are so many variables that are unaccounted for that I'll barely be able to scratch the surface, but here goes.
Killers off the bat are at a disadvantage at the start no going into perks yet each gen if done by just one surv is 90 seconds/charges(1 charge at base efficiency is equal to one second) and giving about 20 secs to get to the other gen (which could be shorter but for the sake of argument I will assume a medium time) so if just one surv is doing gens all game it takes about 9min 10secs (9:10) which means you need to win each chase in about 45seconds every time in order to keep up the pressure assuming the surv is of an avarge skill level and there is not a ton of pallets in one area (Like the Game map).This presumes:
Killer doesn't tunnel. Killer not just doesn't tunnel, but 8 hooks and still lets survivors keep pressure on gens. Killer never catches survivors in a situation where he can damage multiple in close succession. Killer never creates a scenario where all survivors have to be off gens (example: injuring a survivor going in for the unhook and then camping, second example: survivor hook in a 3 gen). Killer doesn't slug. Killer never gets any regression on gens (we seem to be leaving out perks of the discussion on both sides, but this means the killer doesn't even kick a gen). Survivors never have to switch a gen (i.e. the survivor just completes 5 gens and the others never need to be touched).
45 chase time can also be cut down by killers with insta down, anti-loop, ability to sneak up, etc. Sure, there are circumstances where that average time can be lengthened, but also lots of circumstances where it could be much shorter.
Killers have powers because they are alone its a 4v1 the killer needs powers in order to have a leg up if the killers didn't have powers all you would need to do is run loops tightly and always win, if killer was just trapper with no traps no one would play, killer would be awful and surv would be boring.I never said killers shouldn't have powers. But perks are all survivors have to give themselves any type of uniqueness. You can't compare survivor and killer perks because they are meant to do radically different things.
People are running Corrupt and lethal as a patch to the bad spawn logic (Again going un mentioned).In the current game, I've literally spawned right next to survivors. If we want to talk about the current issues with spawn logic the brokenness goes both ways.
Also bad spawn logic is subjective. It would be like saying survivors are running deja only because of bad map design that makes breaking three gens absolutely critical. Are we discussing the game, or a hypothetical of what we want the game to be? Because in the game right now two of the most common killer perks give value for free and provide quite a bit of benefit, which goes against your earlier argument.
Your comparison to finesse is so dishonest how thehell is dedication time to downing someone comparable to running to a vault and pressing a button?Because both are normal gameplay.
The killer will get downs in anything but a massive mismatch. Between faster speed, powers, window blocks, limited pallets, and blood lust, there are many advantages that make certain it will happen. Survivors will rarely escape a good killer, the goal is to make the chase take a good amount of time (you use the phrase outplay, a down isn't outplaying a survivor, who outplayed who is a question of a number of variables but the most pertinent one being the time taken).
You will get hooks, so its crazy to compare it to winning, just like saying getting to a vault location for Finesse is winning.
Dead hard and decisive only need to be one time use as the effects of both are game changing with dead hard massively increasing chase timesSo we agree that the one time use thing is not unique.
DH can also be baited, decisive can be played around in multiple ways (or literally just powered through if tunneling). In anything but an absolute stomp the killer will get downs and the hook perks will come into play.
Perks like resilience are a good example but are few and far between.Are we talking meta perks, or all perks? Because if we're on all perks we can talk about things like No Mither or the Invocations which are basically penalties to the survivors. Killers have weak perks, but I can't think of one that actually makes the game harder for them.
Devour hope and unbreakable are not comparable DH requires the killer to be winningIt requires 2 unhooks to get an effect, 3 unhooks to get a really strong effect. 3 hooks is not winning in most DbD trials, especially if those hooks were spread out, which is usually how devour players play it. All indications can make it look like survivors are winning a trial and suddenly DH turns it around.
The killer out played them so why should that be waved away and it is losing the perk gives you a powerful effect for losing or are you going to say the killer downing you in chase not losingIf the killer downed the survivor in a place where it either would take too much time to pick them up or they are baited away by another survivor, then the killer didn't outplay them.
Perks are resources. You might as well say a killer outplayed a survivor, except the survivor had a pallet to drop. The killer is faster than the survivors and has a power, survivors have resources (pallets, perks) to fight back.
that power should not be given for free so readily without trade off if the effects are that powerfulThat's true, and DbD has been a balance war its entire existence.
Also if you get hit with a hatchet you didn't out loop them did you? You cant be serious with that example if you go against huntress you need to expect a throw if you try and hold W they are not an M1 killer? Your example made no sense.And when you go against survivors you need to expect that they can do things as well, just like survivors can't expect that all killers are only M1. If you downed the survivor but let them get back up, you didn't outplay them, did you? They are the ones who got what they wanted.
Unbreakable doesn't give anything for free. After all, the killer can just pick them up. The survivor(s) have to put the killer in a situation where picking up doesn't make sense. They need to earn it. Nothing is free about it.
What if the killer bring perks that end up being useless because they figured it out quick, totem being destroyed in 10 sec of the game starting, pre-dropping to avoid SP/Enduring, hiding in a locker after a hook to avoid a bbq read? It goes both ways and wow one killer in the entire 40 killer roster. Oh and to use you plague example what if the plague goes gainst a toolbox team all running an injured build?Sure, that's all true. Though there are more examples than Plague when we expand it out, Plague has the benefit of just being the clearest example.
Using RNG as an example for balance is not great as yes RNG is a factor but is uncontrollable without drastic change and even then a little RNG is good it prevents the game going stale and predictable.RNG is a huge part of the game and it needs to be discussed with balance. Both sides, though I'd say it is little more on survivors, have perks that can be incredibly effective against some situations, useless in others, and they have no way to know until they enter the match. That's a core part of DbD's design.
20 seconds is the longest time for a surv to make it to a gen in a mid level match with competent survs most will find the next in about 10 second due to predictable spawn locations. But hey lets redo the math then with more favourable times in mind then. so just -50 secs off the total for 5 gen runs bring s the time down to 8:20 m/sec meaning you would need to down in 40 secs instead. As for killer hooking 10x8=80secs still a lot of time wasted.
The whole point of that argument was to point out that the killer wastes a lot of time on things they have to do while only one guy on a gen the whole game leads to a short match that's why killer often have to tunnel slug and camp in order to increase the pressure on the survs.
There are four survs in the trial all should be doing something healing, unhooking or doing gens in a normal match there should always be one guy on a gen if not then that team is doing horrible and the killer is doing really well.
Ok assuming that spawning next to the survs as killer is common (Its not) how is the killer going to know that? The most likely thing to happen is the killer is going to check farther areas expecting normal spawns while the real spawn was not too far away that is why killers run lethal to prevent that RNG at the start then its main effect is off for the rest of the game.
No they are not comparable a window vault is not comparable to a down. The killer has to invest a chunk of time into getting that down. Yes a down is an outplay?! What are you talking about? The killer made a correct decision at a loop and got a hit, twice that is an outplay. Also yes getting hooks is winning? It advances your objective of killing the survs like how lasting long in chase is also winning vaulting a window is nothing lasting longer is the goal. And yes the killer has to be stronger in the 1v1 as if they are on a similar level there would be no killer players left and bloodlust exists due to bad loop design giving a lot of time for very little effort.
Dead Hard when used correctly is used when the killer has to swing to guarantee the effect which you got for losing to give a 3rd health state and people who use decisive to its full extent try to use it aggressively (despite it not being its intended purpose) as a DS strike can gut all killer pressure.
Resilience like perks e.g. "This is not happening" are fine but resilience itself is meta for just having a more powerful effect.
Devour hope is countered by paying attention to totem if you just ignore totems then you get punished for it, the most common outcome for the totem is get one with the exposed everyone drops what there doing to go get (assuming soloq otherwise SWF would just have one guy) the totem clensed and now the killer has no perk for the rest off the game is a high risk high reward perk meanwhile inbreakable just requires you to lose and the killer has no way to tell if you have it, not equal at all.
The part talking about after huntress is confusing and looks like an AI made it as it goes back to unbreakable when that part was talking about some killers require the surv to take more into account like larry and his cams or wesker and his sprays, you cant just hold W against a ranged killer in exchange they have no mobility so are easier to loop.
So you think that is the surv goes down in a bad spot for the killer then the surv just gets to run away? That seriously does not sound like an unfair situation? Chase someone for a minute they go down on a pallet and because one dingus is hovering around and you need to chase them away the downed surv just gets up for free!? And you honestly think that's healthy?
Ok then if RNG is a factor you take into a account then dramaturgy is not fine as you can get a commodious with a BNP for doing nothing even tho you can also get exposed for it but at the same time be given another speed boost on top of it this is RNG but the fact you are more likely to get a massive positive for pressing E. Then Hex's you can have someone spawn next to it and now you have no perk for the rest of the game, fair? Do you see how mainly balancing around the part you cant control much if at all is a problem.
Anyway the main balance points I want to get across is that right now killer agency is at its worst as it is too easy to heal (6 sec heals) and too easy to do gens (can be done in half the time solo) and lasing long in a chase has neve been easier due to perks which makes killer feel unrewarding (I mean look at the reaction to fog vials). These days it feels like as killer your going against just perks not people.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976441#Comment_3976441
lot of things that can take up time just hooking a surv takes about 10-15 which means if you took the time of every (usable) hook state 8x15= 120secs just spent taking someone to hook giving free time to do gens or reset.It takes 16 seconds to wiggle off, if you're presuming that the killer is averaging 15 seconds a hook that's absurd.
Usually when math likes this gets brought up, it presumes the most possible efficiency for one side, and the worst possible circumstance for the other.
Yes, if the survivors play very efficiently, and the killer plays very inefficiently, the survivors are likely to win. The fact that if one side plays better than the other, or just has more random chance on their side, they are more likely to win is true for every game and tells us nothing about balance in DbD.
Now I want to go on to perks.Killers have powers, which survivors don't. Perks are meant to do radically different things for both sides. Perks are what survivors use to build their 'character', the killer has 40 options for starting builds before modifying them with perks and addons.
Most perks on the killer side requires them to be winning in order to get full value or it is a one time useThe game does have win harder perks, that's true. However, looking at the top ten killer perks on Nightlight, Lethal Pursuer, Corrupt Intervention, Nowhere to Hide, and Bamboozle either have no or very simple requirement.
As for the hooking perks, the killer is going to get hooks unless its an absolute, massive stomp. It would be like saying Finesse is a perk survivors can only use when 'winning' because they are winning if they managed to make it to a vault.
As for one time use, Dead Hard and Decisive Strike have the same, if not more extreme limitations. Survivors also have perks like resilience that require them to play in a more dangerous style to get the reward.
And that is not even the worst of it as a lot of the strongest perks in the game reward you for losing take unbreakable or Boon: Exponential perks that allow you a second chance after the killer out played you and probably invested time into getting you down so why should you be able to wave that away for free?Because you brought the perk to do just that. It's not free. Survivors, just like the killer, get a few choices that allow them to circumvent the normal rules. If well deployed, on either side, they can make a big difference.
It's also not losing to make effective use of what you have. A killer who doesn't tunnel, but has Devour Hope, isn't losing by spreading out the hooks. A survivor who baits a killer into chase because they know they have anti-tunnel isn't losing, they are deploying what they have effectively.
This would be like arguing that its unfair a Huntress can still throw a hatchet at a survivor after the survivor out looped them. No, that's the killer power, it has to be taken into consideration before deciding if one side outplayed the other or not. If the survivors set up an exponential away from the gens, and they manage to draw the killer over there, the survivors didn't lose, they executed a strategy.
So at the end of it all its lead to a meta where people can do a gen solo in about 45 seconds heal in about 6, just say no to death with second chance perks and last way longer than naturally with chase perks that have no downsidesExcept they can't do all this at the same time. Take a fast heal build, hit a plague or an insta down killer, or you are the one tunneled, you've got a useless build. Take an anti-tunnel or chase build, well what if the killer goes after the healer and now the survivor has nothing to help them?
As I said at the beginning, if you imagine everything goes right for one side and wrong for the other, its very easy to make your case. However, its not reflective of the actual game and thus doesn't actually tell us anything.
First when I was talking about the gen math that was under the assumption that they were being inefficient it does not always take 20 sec to run to a gen sometimes it can take a little as 5 but you only have a problem with this math when it calculated for killer hooks?
I was taking equal inefficiently on both sides into account realistically a lot of survs carry a gen perk and don't take more than 10 sec to get to the next gen especially if they are more competent. (Also love how you leave out the gen math)
Killers have powers because they are alone its a 4v1 the killer needs powers in order to have a leg up if the killers didn't have powers all you would need to do is run loops tightly and always win, if killer was just trapper with no traps no one would play, killer would be awful and surv would be boring.
And if you are going to talk about killer power balance the only real problems are Nurse, blight, ghoul and even then against a strong team sometimes they are the only ones who can compete at a high level there is a reason the comp player like blight the most as he requires skill to use at high level and can compete with high level teams.
Also the reason you barely see weaker killers as the meta changes it forces killers to adapt and chose what is best to deal with it naturally selecting out weaker killers. Like what about ghostface, trapper, skullmerchant, trickster the list goes on. Weaker killers don't really have a place in the current meta and its unfair to say "just play ghoul" if you want balance you would think about their place in the game as well.
People are running Corrupt and lethal as a patch to the bad spawn logic (Again going un mentioned). Your comparison to finesse is so dishonest how the hell is dedication time to downing someone comparable to running to a vault and pressing a button? Dead hard and decisive only need to be one time use as the effects of both are game changing with dead hard massively increasing chase times and therefor more time for the rest to do gens and decisive can just end the game for the killer on the spot by destroying all pressure.
Perks like resilience are a good example but are few and far between.
Devour hope and unbreakable are not comparable DH requires the killer to be winning and going out of their way to not tunnel for best effect and if the totem is found early its a perk gone for the rest of the game high risk high reward but what is the risk of going down then having a free second chance? The killer out played them so why should that be waved away and it is losing the perk gives you a powerful effect for losing or are you going to say the killer downing you in chase not losing?
And the hole point of the perk rant was that power should not be given for free so readily without trade off if the effects are that powerful. Also if you get hit with a hatchet you didn't out loop them did you? You cant be serious with that example if you go against huntress you need to expect a throw if you try and hold W they are not an M1 killer? Your example made no sense.
But the logic of "If you just imagine if everything goes right/wrong for one side" What if the killer bring perks that end up being useless because they figured it out quick, totem being destroyed in 10 sec of the game starting, pre-dropping to avoid SP/Enduring, hiding in a locker after a hook to avoid a bbq read? It goes both ways and wow one killer in the entire 40 killer roster. Oh and to use you plague example what if the plague goes gainst a toolbox team all running an injured build? Using RNG as an example for balance is not great as yes RNG is a factor but is uncontrollable without drastic change and even then a little RNG is good it prevents the game going stale and predictable.
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Right so off the bat I just want to set some ground work when it comes to balance.
Killers off the bat are at a disadvantage at the start no going into perks yet each gen if done by just one surv is 90 seconds/charges(1 charge at base efficiency is equal to one second) and giving about 20 secs to get to the other gen (which could be shorter but for the sake of argument I will assume a medium time) so if just one surv is doing gens all game it takes about 9min 10secs (9:10) which means you need to win each chase in about 45seconds every time in order to keep up the pressure assuming the surv is of an avarge skill level and there is not a ton of pallets in one area (Like the Game map).
Even then there are 4 survs if you are chasing one the other three going to be doing something and most of the time if its not unhooking and healing its going to be doing gens meaning if the killer loses pressure even just once it can end in a loss for them this is the real reason why perks like decisive are have been so hated as just being hit with it once can mean a loss as it stuns the killer at the most critical moment removing all pressure(This is just an easy example of how lost pressure means everything).
DBD at is core is very heavily snowball like with the main tempo of each game being who can keep up the pressure for the most of it.
And assuming that the killer is in constant chase as there are a lot of things that can take up time just hooking a surv takes about 10-15 which means if you took the time of every (usable) hook state 8x15= 120secs just spent taking someone to hook giving free time to do gens or reset.
Worse even is the spawn logic that can place survs in horrible positions for the killer with them in the middle of the map and the survs being put right next to a gen giving what can be 20-60 seconds of free progress on gens giving the survs a massive head start when they are already at their strongest.
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Now I want to go on to perks.
Most perks on the killer side requires them to be winning in order to get full value or it is a one time use, then its off for the rest of the game. For example the most META perk Pain Resonance has 4 token that each take off 20c on the most progressed gen that 20c= 20secs (25 if you want to be 100% specific due to screaming) remember it can take up to 15 secs just hooking and PR requires a scourge hook that usually spawn in bad spots and cant always be taken advantage off and if you say that the time it takes to hook is not a big deal your wrong there is a reason that people who know they will die go out of their way to die in far out spots (Comp corner anyone?). Remember the killer has to win their chase to get this and deal with hook times.
Then on the other hand surv perk desing philosophy is bad real BAD most of the strongest perks do not require anything to activate or activate when LOSING. In current terms take vigil a perk that makes it so exhaustion perks (most of which are activated for doing nothing as well) are up more often despite being the most powerful surv perks already and on top of that is kills any de-buff build that the killer may want to bring going from 30-20 seconds of exposed to around 18-12 seconds in no time at all to try and get value and then their is windows of opportunity a perk that allows you to take all RNG out the game by knowing before hand if a pallet is there or not as well as plan your looping for FREE if we want to talk about balance in a game why should these perks give so much for nothing no down side at all?
And that is not even the worst of it as a lot of the strongest perks in the game reward you for losing take unbreakable or Boon: Exponential perks that allow you a second chance after the killer out played you and probably invested time into getting you down so why should you be able to wave that away for free? This is just one example but there are a lot of perks that do this. And if your response to this is "But what about hubris?" to an extent I do agree (Like a token system for either hooking or winning chases by dowing) but the power equivalency is just not there as it is not easy to pull of against a competent surv unless you have a pallet shred build to try and get the full value out of it while unbreakable just requires you to lose and be on the ground for a bit and can ruin killer pressure.
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Now for the surv items/killer add-on most of the worst add-ons for killer have been nurfed to the ground and are a far cry from what they used to be (mostly just instadown stuff) now they are stuff related to gimmicks that are niche or insta down with heavy nurf with them (huntress having only one hatchet or clown having one bottle).
Meanwhile for surv items have far more power in most situations. Medkits allowing for a selfheal or two means only one person needs to do the healing action while the other can do gens reducing pressure on the survs and increasing pressure on gens. Then toolboxes can save so much time for example a commodious tool box (blue) on its own no add-ons results in a 35.5% faster completion rate cutting about 35 seconds of time and remember survs can bring 4 of these things and on top of that bring gen progression perks to make it even faster which can lead to games that go as fast as 3-5 mins.
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Oh and about kill rates I know the devs state that 60% is the intended goal but I just want to say that using only data without asking why is worse than no data at all as most people know that killers like onryo and nurse have kill rate that do not reflect actual performance. Nurse has one of if not the lowest kill rates in the game but does that mean she is bad? Not at all as she is actually the strongest but take Onryo has one of the highest kill rates but if you play the game to a competent mid level you would know she is one of the weaker killers in the game? So why the bloated/deflated numbers then, player learning curve people who play nurse have to adapt to he weird play style like no other killer while with onryo survs have to adapt to her instakill power and newer players who probably don't even know the fundamentals of looping yet as the tutorial is bad now have to deal with a power mechanic they have never seen before massively inflating her kill rate beyond what it would be if it was only competent survs going against her.
Also while on the topic the kill rates for each SWF number solo/duo/trio/squad has the same apply, people play in swf more than you think but are not all doing clock call outs to there team most of the time its people who just want to have fun with their friends so it being below 50% is not what you think it is.
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So at the end of it all its lead to a meta where people can do a gen solo in about 45 seconds heal in about 6, just say no to death with second chance perks and last way longer than naturally with chase perks that have no downsides. All this has lead to the killers only really having two options play the most powerful killers or camp and tunnel harder and harder which then causes survs to complain about it with the devs responding with base kit buffs to survs that only further make the problem worse.
And we have seen how this road end with people leaving the game, killers left on mass due to second chance perks being too obnoxious and MFT making M1 killers miserable to play until the devs caved and did the 6.1 patch and the same seems to be coming back again and may lead to the same situation.
With the main reason people quit is the lack of agency on the killer side, hit someone they heal 6 secs later, down someone they just get up on their own, you regress a gen and its still fixed 30 seconds later it can just feel like a lose/lose situation where no matter what it means nothing which when all pressure is on you alone can feel worse and if the game is not fulfilling why play? I have seen people who play killer say that even before playing they feel anxious before playing and I don't blame them the feeling of anxiety is just not felt or no where near as bad on surv as the pressure is split between 4 people.
(TLDR no, read it all of it.)
(Oh and if your wondering why this is so long its so I can just link it in future)
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Clown buff no, key nurf yes. Also the map now does what old key did you just need the iri add-on.
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I mean if you go on nightlight the only killers with a 60% kill rate (as of now) are hag, onryo and nightmare, but if you want to be technical only hag has 60% at the moment. But like with nurse stats are not telling of a killers true power as the high kill rates on most killers are due to their kit being difficult to understand or not. Like hag has one of the lowest pick rates in the game and due to this people never get to learn how to play against her. I mean hell on nightlight pig has a higher kill rate than ghoul but if you play the game you know their power in no where near equal. So going for a 60% kill rate statistically in not great as there are many underlining factors causing bloated kill rates, onryo has a high kill rate but once you know how to play against her she becomes one of the weaker killers as you can make it so she almost has no power.
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@TWiXT said:
I honestly don't see it. Maybe its because my clown builds feature no slowdown in favor or more haste, maybe it's because I'm, only a "decent" killer main, hell, maybe it's because I haven't played clown in over a year, but so far, every clown match I've played since the 9.1.0 patch, have been a race of how fast I can hook survivors vs. how fast they can complete 5 gens, and "Spoiler alert" I usually get 6-7 hooks by the time there's 1 gen left, and typically at least 3 escape.
I kept asking myself… "WHAT AM I DOING WRONG? ISN'T HE SUPPOSED TO BE BRAINDEAD AND BROKEN NOW?" and I just don't see it! Hell, I even adopted a build from the guy who wrote the 350+ page clown guide, and STILL found myself falling short. I know it's not that I'm on a higher MMR, because of how long it's been since I played Clown, which should put me in the much lower sbmm/mmr range, and while my chases are over with very fast (less than 20 seconds), I just can't keep up with how fast the gens are finishing.
I've adopted the "2-down" strategy, wherein you down one, and immediately chase, down and hook another in order to get the remaining 2 off of gens to come help their teammates, and that at least won me a couple of matches, but Just doesn't work if, after you down the first one, there's no one else in the immediate area to chase. Overall the strategy is heavily flawed, and outright doesn't work against a swf, but as far as strats go, it's the only one with the new clown that actually worked.
in summary: Either survivors are too strong atm, or I'm just a ######### clown player, because these buffs that make him "braindead" or "Overpowered" aren't doing anything for me. If you want evidence of this, Just watch my latest Video on Kick (TWiXT_Pr1me) and see for yourself… hell point out where I went wrong too, I could use some tips.
If at first you don't succeed tunnel, tunnel and tunnel again.
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At the moment I am embracing the jank as yes its broken but its is silly going mach 5 on clown in silent hill. The game is beyond broken tho.
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On one hand its aids on the other its really funny seeing a bloated alcoholic run faster than most killers while wheezing to himself.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452673/killers-returning-to-hook-every-match
And now.. I .. just try to not sound so harsh right now — because… to be honest… I’m so damn tired of this whole discussion:I’m genuinely sorry for always getting so involved in posts like this.But BHVR is planning future changes based on posts like yours.So many changes that, to be honest, I’m afraid of. Genuinely afraid.
I know it can be super frustrating to have the killer come back to the hook.But… please, please, if you’d do me one favor before making demands like in your post: please try playing killer yourself.And not just once or twice. Play for a while. Play against good teams.Teams who know exactly what they’re doing, who know your limits and how to exploit every single one of them.Not people hiding behind rocks in dead zones praying not to be found.Not teams afraid of you — but teams that actively fight you.
Then maybe you’ll understand what it is you’re asking killers to overlook.What you’re asking them to give up, all while good teams are using every single "goodie" BHVR gave them — thanks to posts like yours — against you.
Do you think good survivors are happy and grateful when you ignore the hook?Nope.They’ll just keep their OTR or DS in reserve — to “thank” you later by throwing themselves into your next chase full-health with two bodyblocks, basically saying:“Come on, chase me — I’ve got DS. And if you don’t want to, no worries, I’ve got Unbreakable ready and I’m lying in a pallet anyway.”
That’s the kind of “gratitude” you get for ignoring the hook.
They’ll still play super aggressively against you.The only time you’ll see a bit of respect from many players is when they’re on dead hook.Then, maybe, they won’t sprint into your next chase with DH and Unbreakable ready.
I know my posts tend to provoke a lot of people and usually end up farming downvotes.
(Ye, I know — the evil killer is just trying to provoke people by showing how hard he tunnels, right?)
But honestly? I don’t care.
I still feel like… I need to speak up.To fight back, in a way.Against all these changes that are supposedly coming — anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-this, anti-that.Basically: anti-killer.
And even though I understand the frustration survivors feel with certain things,I genuinely don’t believe we need even more “anti-killer” mechanics.
I strongly suspect you’re not playing in high MMR,and what you experienced in your match isn’t some meta strategy used to stomp survivors —it’s often what weaker killers in high MMR have to do just to stay in the game.Especially when they’re not playing strong killers or are missing key slowdown.
In your example, things might already look much less frustrating if survivors simply didn’t run directly to the hook after a person beeing hoked,or didn’t heal right under the hook(seriously, just take the time to run 30 meters into a safer area with better structures —suddenly the killer controls nothing there, and coming back to the hook is just wasted time).
Once you expect the killer to maybe come backand prepare accordingly instead of healing under the hook and praying —it often stops being such a big issue.
And in the lobbies you’re likely in, the killer often comes back to the hook just because they didn’t find anyone else.That’s not "proxy camping” or “tunneling” — it’s the result of failed info or pathing.You’ll notice all this the moment you start playing killer yourself.
So please, please, I’m asking genuinely —before you go asking for more changes, try playing killer.Try it for a while.Try it against good players — the kind that make you feel powerless.Then you might see why killers do what they do, and what kind of pressure they’re under just to survive a match.
This. This so so much.
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yh with the fact franklins got gutted with this update killer does not really have a good way with dealing with items anymore and with recharge ability of theses things means you will see it used a lot in one game with no way to stop it.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972613#Comment_3972613
"completely ruin the game". Bro, those things are in the game for a few hours. Give it some time and then reflect instead of going for kneejerk reactions.
It is always the same with this community.
…
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@Chinpokoman said:
Someone from behavior needs to explain how the Clown and Franklin's changes amongst others made it into live despite literal mountains of negative feedback. Does behavior even care what players actually think???? What is the justification for these changes despite a literal 1000 page explanation of why the changes are bad? Absolutely ridiculous.
And a bug with smoke clouds stopping you from being able to start a chase that has been a know bug for the last 4 times they were in the game. Still not fixed.
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@DeBecker said:
8 Addons got retired for survivors. We get a total of 2.5 Million BPs as "compensation". I just looked up my numbers on Dwight. Thats already 1.5 Mio Bloodpoints that have been wasted. And I have 44 other surviors with a huge mass of retired items.
Was it really too difficult to make a proper coding for a "true" compensation?
I can just call this scam.
How much were you expecting for them to give you?
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972151#Comment_3972151
All of you mentioned are def not weaker than that who I mentioned.
Yes, using doors have high risk as he can abandon chase any time and unless you play swf it's not worth using his doors at all. Very rarely, however he can easily go cross map back and forth without any counterplay or limitation. The axe has decent hitbox, I never truly find it harder to land than on Huntress. Not even saying that m2 into grab is insane. When I play ST I have good time, he's not S tier, but he's nowhere near being anything close to being weak.
Ghostface is like the weakest killer in the game are you kidding me? All it takes is one dingus following you around to no power.
The doors do have counterplay the screen glitches when in use and the ambience for the game goes silent when he uses it. He is extremely weak to pre running and exhaustion perks are his kryptonite a lot of Springtraps run Mindbreaker to try and mitigate this. The M2 into grab should not be so easy to pull of often if so your playing against weaker players. Also the hitbox of huntresses hatchets are the size of a basket ball (look at game data if you dont believe me).
Maybe we just play at different levels of the game but playing against him with all the counter play in mind has made it so then Xeno and sadako feel way more threating then him and stats of nightlite back this up.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972106#Comment_3972106
Springtrap is defienetly not weak. He's above average. He has great zoning, insane map mobility, awesome antiloop and one of most busted add ons. The term "weak" killer suits about 5 current killers in roaster (Pig, Myers, Trapper, Skull Merchant and Doctor).
First off there are more weak killers than that (Ghostface, knight and Trickster for example).
Insane map mobility? The very same Insane map mobility that can be used against you? The same map mobility that has two very crippling weaknesses with the static and ambiance cancel. Awesome anti-loop? You miss the small hitbox axe and you have no power for 7 seconds were the surv now knows that you are just M1 for the duration until pick up.
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Springtrap at the moment is weak if anything, if your getting hit by the axe and cannot make it to anywhere in time you are most likely in a dead zone and therefore out positioned.
At the moment Springtrap has some serious weaknesses that can really harm him such a door logic, ambiance cuts and if he misses he has to wait a bit before he can throw again and untill then he is just an M1 no other mid or long range killer has to deal with this.
That and due to all the warnings given he is also really weak to exhaustion perks/Pre-running.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971756#Comment_3971756
I think that game is balance about poor play on both sides. And if you want to balance game around mid to high mmr then game should have rank mode or mmr system needs to be explained.
The problem with ranked mode is that first the base game needs to be balanced which it is not and BHVR refuse to give a coherent system for MMR and are usually vague.
In order for ranked to even function at this point things like perks would just be disabled as RNG and anything that lacks skilled input is look down upon. For example in a lot of competitive shooter shotgun patterns are made static to avoid RNG. Its why in comp DBD they have to ban a lot of perks and even give judge based scores based on the killer used. Ranked in DBD just currently would not work.
But this is about general balance of the game, about DMS arguing for how its used at a baseline competent level.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971733#Comment_3971733
I will say it again. The game should not be balanced around high mmr, if there is not a rank mode. There are 40 killers and over 500 perks and knowledge that requires quite some dedication.
This is not just high MMR its just at a level of competent or mid MMR and even then why are we balancing the game around people who don't know what they are doing?
Would you not think that having a game balanced around bad players would just lead to one side quitting once they get better because they know there is nothing more for them?
"There are 40 killers and 500 perks and knowledge that requires some dedication" Yes that is called a learning curve people will fail against something they have never seen before but after 3 times will understand and try to play around it and that is not even talking about the people who actively seek information via wiki ,streamers or the holy DBD bible of Otzdarva.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971689#Comment_3971689
Not a valid argument. The perk itself is problematic for multiple reasons and value of it is just beyond old eruption/call of brine meta. Saying that slowdown was nerfed is irrelevant again, because gen time was increased. There was limitation for killers to run other perks than just same 6 perks all over again and it haven't really helped. There are some pretty busted killer perks that people still don't use because they feel like 4 slowdowns are requirement and then sre surprised that if they don't down anyone they have minimum value. DMS on the other hand is just as unhealthy for the game as Vigil, to imagine what value DMS offers for 8 hooks:
→ 20 tokens of pain resonance worth
→ 13 procs of deadlock worth
→ 5 additional gens worth needed
And that is a single perk. I remember when it got changed so it doesn't work only on obssesion and I immidiately knew that this perk will be fundamentaly broken. And on top of that they buffed it even more, so it's a pocket perk. Just to understand the slowdowns changes:
- Ruin value decreased from 200 to 100 % but now provides immunity against 8 kick limits for as long as standing, no longer disabled once someone dies.
- Corrupt - deactivates once someone is downed, by got spawn logic so now it truly blocks gens that will help you as spawn locations for killers are way more restricted (fe. when you played on azarov's you spawn in middle and got one gen blocked on one side, second side had too. Now you get one side completely shut down, and that's about pretty much every map and corrupt spread.
- Pain res - got nerfed to 20 %, but in solos, if you down someone within 30s the game is pretty much over, half team will do nothing and the progress is reset to zero.
- Deadlock - very minimal nerf of 5s
- Grim - absolute buff, synergy with other perks (did nothing before if you didn't find 4th survivor in time or haven't got time to hook them.
- Surge - got area increased, scream notification added (so buff)
So argument that slowdown was nerfed and is useless is beyond ridiculous. It does nothing for people who are bad in chase or weak killers (Trapper, Hag, Pig, Ghostface, Myers, Skull Merchant…) that will start the process of stalling game way later. Not even saying that best slowdown is hooking, downing and chasing people because 75 % people are not progressing games.
DMS is countered by touching a gen with 0% a crippling weakness and often requires you to pair it with something that can force people off gens like Pain resonance. Or you could go do another gen.
Ruin sucks, its random on how long it lasts for and can sometimes be found immediately so you have no perk for the rest of the game and even when it does work its only 100% that is only 1/4 speed(-0.25cps) of survs repair speed. That means to undo 20 seconds of repair it would take 80 seconds for ruin to undo it.
Corrupt is mainly used on M1 killers so they can find someone without free progress on gens if anything this perk should be base kit as surv getting progress on gens because of bad spawn logic is unfair and gives them a massive boost when they are already at their strongest.
Pain Resonance can only be used 4 times once for each surv and removes about 20c so 20 seconds lost for a chase that could of been way longer and considering the meta its not hard to last more than 40 sec against the killer with the WOO and Lithe combo used everywhere which BTW requires no effort to use while all gen regression requires the killer to make a good play or it a limited amount like corrupt and ruin.
Deadlock is only 25 seconds now and is only for the most completed gen all other are still available. Just taking someone to a hook takes about 10-15 sec (RNG dependant) so its not much.
Grimm. 10 seconds only really? That is how long it takes to hook someone and the 40 seconds for getting a fresh hook on everyone (which wont happen often if you want to win) can be countered by hiding and if you say "but what if someone get hooked" you can leave them in it for most of the duration and get them off when its about to go away.
Surge needed a buff because its weak. Most people who see you use it will run to an area already completed or an area with no gens to avoid it and even then its 8c just a little over a dry kick.
The argument that regression was nurfed is not ridiculous at all as if you pay attention to the meta over the course of the games life time gen regression constantly gets nurfed. Down below is the meta perks used on both sides, its a picture I took from JCglitchmaster giving you a simple and indisputable proof gen regression get nerfed constantly (you can see the specifics on the wiki this is just a visual representation) with the only buffs given to DS, vigil and DMS the rest unchanged since (And I just want to point out the DMS change was meant to be a nurf)
Oh and "DMS on the other hand is just as unhealthy for the game as Vigil, to imagine what value DMS offers for 8 hooks"
First off 8 hooks in a game with both sides being competent is never going to happen and if the killer 8 hooks anyway than the killer is usually going out of their way to do so and that team was going to lose anyway.
Second DMS can be hard counted by tapping a 0% gen while vigil can stack, cannot be turned off and requires no activation as its a permanent buff and counters all debuffs in the game making a lot of builds and play styles on killer useless on top of allowing far more uptime for exhaustion perks which most of them bar 3 require no effort to use and are effectively free value but yh the killer has to actually win to get DMS while vigil is given for FREE with no down sides the two are not comparable.
Also if DMS alone is causing you to lose you may have bigger problems fix first as well as you should not be lasting only 30s (especially with the current meta) in chase if that is happening the killer is either reading you like a book or you are bad at the game.
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I agree this seems like a nice QOL change and would make his power a little less clunky.
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Oh hell no.
With gen speeds being what they are right now no.
Most killer gen regression/holding has been nurfed to the point of being useless. The only regression perks left to use are PR, Pop, DMS and Surge(if your M1).
The perk is not OP as it has quite crippling counter play which is why it usually gets paired with PR to get value.
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@Memesis said:
No. Make them 10%. Or 5%. I hate map offerings and equally despise the people who use them for the unfair advantage they give.
This but just remove them from the bloodweb so I can save BP
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Spirit, just not a fan of heavy audio based mechanics.
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969447#Comment_3969447
- Blood amber removes your ability to mind game the killer… that's really bad for survivors and essentially removes the point of this add-on because of how useless it now is.
- Look around if you are concerned or just slug.
- Again, you are strawmanning my argument. There are rare occasions where there's no other hook, but like I said those are very rare maps and with the devs essentially removing map offerings it's now a complete gamble on whether or not you get a map where sabotaging a hook is even possible.
- An item should be useful on it's own and not require several perks to make it worthwhile.
- You are straw manning by misrepresenting my arguments and ignoring what I'm actually saying, like with med-kits.
- How is that useless? Hell I think your straw manning me at this point its still good and again THE MAP WILL DO THE SAME THING BUT BETTER or you going to ignore that part again?
- So you go after someone to stop a flashbang play but as you go after one another can just pick up anyway which is still getting the save and the intended effect.
- How am I straw manning? Map dependant saboing? What are you smoking? You can sabo on all maps if the killer sees you saboing obviously they will walk else its not just walk up and sabo for immediate value.
- Items are useful on their own again do you even know how to use them? A toolkit with a BNP is still powerful on its own, perks make them far better.
"So this really leaves med-kits as the best choice by virtue of the devs over the years intentionally and unintentionally nerfing all other items. If they actually buffed survivor items instead of making them incredibly weak we would be likely to see stuff other than med-kits."
Your whole point was that everything sucks and med-kits are the only viable item your statement here proves it. I am saying that is false and all you said was a lie.
At this point your not here to fairly debate you just want to lie so I will not continue this.
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969430#Comment_3969430
- They are making blood amber reveal you to the killer, the keys best add-on becoming trash is a nerf and as nice as getting items from a chest is… why don't you just bring in that item in the first place? This is only compounded by the fact that maps, flashlights, most toolboxes, and broken keys are all terrible and not even worth the time spent going to a chest to get the item.
- Flashbangs were always a skill issue on killers side but it's undeniable they are extremely weak now.
- Except for the fact in most cases the killer can just go to the three other hooks around them. It's only on very select maps in a coordinated swf where sabotaging can see consistent value.
- Yes, dedicating your whole build to one item is something you can do to make it better. Or you can just bring a medkit and it will always be useful.
- I never said med-kits were the only viable choice I said they were the best choice.
Straw-manning my arguments just make you look desperate, if you want to have a serious conversation try actually engaging with my argument instead.
"So this really leaves med-kits as the best choice"
"If they actually buffed survivor items instead of making them incredibly weak we would be likely to see stuff other than med-kits"
These statements clearly insinuate that you think Med-Kits are the only viable choice.
1.Blood amber revealing the killer and you to the killer does not change its main function as the aura reveal it used to stop mind games and it will still be able to do that with the next update if it remains as stated. Maps are getting buffed with the iri addon to do what keys do now but better.
2.Flashbangs were always a skill issue? How do you counter a flash bang you cant look away from or cant hear being put down? No flashbangs were op if you cannot see that you clearly do not know much about them.
3. No the killer cannot just go to another hook map RNG wont always allow it. To pretend otherwise is will full ignorance.
4. Damn you may have to invest perks in order to get value out of your item shocker. By saying that a med-kid will be useful on its own only really further proves the point of how powerful they are.
Don't say surv items are incredibly weak they are not you just don't know how to use them.
How the hell am I straw manning? I pointed out that what you said was false, just throwing buzz words does not make you sound intelligent.
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@PlotTwister said:
I think the main issue is really that they nerfed essentially everything else for survivors. They are nerfing keys to essentially remove blood amber and drastically reducing the usability of the addons. They are side-grading maps by nerfing it in some ways and buffing it in a few. Flashbangs got deleted and flashlights were never really that good outside of the insta blind era. Sabotaging with toolboxes makes little sense for how easy it is to counter and how they increased the number of hooks on maps as well as making hooks respawn after death. This left survivors with really only toolboxes for repairs and medkits and as nice as repairing gens a few seconds faster is that still has the issue of with how many killers run regression perks it's liable to get deleted.
So this really leaves med-kits as the best choice by virtue of the devs over the years intentionally and unintentionally nerfing all other items. If they actually buffed survivor items instead of making them incredibly weak we would be likely to see stuff other than med-kits.
All of this factually false.
- Keys are not being nurfed heavily if anything they are being buffed with the next update being able to be used more and when finished can be exchange for a new item in the span of a second and to add insult to injury maps will do the same thing next update but even better with the iri add on.
- Flashbangs used to be uncounterable and have been changed to be fair and requires some stealth and timing to work instead of a free blind.
- Sabotaging is really strong as there is no counterplay as you can sabo faster than the killer can attack you leading to saboing in the killers face if you want.
- Toolboxes with a build can allow people to complete gens in like nearly half the time and are insanely strong made worse by the fact most killer regression perks have been nurfed to being barely viable.
There is no universe where you can say med kits are the only viable choice as that is just being ignorant of an items true potential.
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I do think healing is way too powerful atm hit and run against healing builds is just impossible with the buff they have given to healing perks like botany and desperate measures allow for 6 second reset speeds which in turn allow for more progress on gens as time saved healing its time spent on something else.
The problem being only made worse by a lack of anti-heal on killer unless your base kit allows for it.
I also want to say that just because one thing is not as broken as it used to be does not mean that the current version isn't.
Injuring survs is sometimes the only reliable way to build pressure as survs would have to choose to be injured doing gens or spent time healing, with the current healing meta you heal so fast that you don't have to take any risks which I think is bad design as it should not be risk free.
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Love all of this, especially a FNAF1 style black out at certain parts of the match would be amazing.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963870#Comment_3963870
majority of players
Let's specify: majority of killer players.
As you can see here survivors were bringing map offerings far more than killers ever did and directly for a competitive advantage. (see most maps played for offering are heavily surv sided)
So for the sake of change I'm glad they are not used as much anymore, constant trips to eyrie of crow is enough to make anyone want to retire.
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I play both sides and the reason why people dont use the key is because your average surv just uses hard meta (Tool box and Medkit) as they are far more powerful.
Its not that its bad its that survs are spoilt for choice. Aura read is nice but a quick heal or extra gen pressure is far more valuable.
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@SalamanderAH said:
@Ragna_Rock what would you suggest then if it’s broken or to make it balanced? and be for real, I’m trying to be open minded to your suggestion.
To balance out the fact that it resets all pressure the killer has built up the person jumping off the hook should be incapacitated for a time (cant do gens).
The true strength of this perk is the fact it saves so much time spent on unhooking and putting yourself into a unfavourable position meaning less time saving more time on gens while removing killer pressure.
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The perk is already beyond busted it does not need any buffs at all.