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@CyperX said:
This game was/is a masterpiece ...they messed it up with these stupid changes...so now no more worried , nervous character but more upright character standing tall proud and confident like there's absolutely no killer in the game ..less realistic now
I mean, considering they used a skeleton for David on everyone, I am actually positive that the animations will be fixed. My only question is why implement them now? They are obviously unfinished for anyone but David. Do they expect everyone to start playing David untill they finish it? They already decided to delay Open Handed due to time constraints, so I dont know why they didnt do the same for the animations.
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@SonicOffline said:
I'm a big fan of the new UI, but it does have some glaring issues that could be addressed.
Like, I agree the survivors being in the top left away from literally everything is a bit silly. Why not put it on the top right above the tiny indicators they use on the right? lol that way at least everything that's relevant is together. Survivors, NOED/Exhaustion/broken/whatever below that, then your icons for your perks.
No one truly dislikes what is available in the HUD, the thing people hate is the way the information is spread out. Why are survivors and perks the furthest possible distance away from each other? Sometimes you need to check who is injured and if certain perks are in effect or not(for example, if you hit a survivor to confirm which survivor it was because 2 yui's are still 2 yui's, then look if you're still within Devour Hope range or not).
The whole issue is that we've been complaining about the HUD being spread out since the start of the PTB, and instead of putting all relevant information back together, they kept it spread out. It's been nearly a month of negative feedback on the HUD and they still pushed through.
I mean, that's like giving survivors a perk that's basically old Brand New Part, then everyone saying how bad the perk is because it means survivors can finish 4 gens within 5 seconds of the start of the game, then still being like "nah, must be fine". Or same for killers with a perk that is basically old Mori's, where a killer can instantly kill anyone at the start of the match without hooking anyone. Not even making that perk a hex and then being like "nah, must be fine". They normally already ignore a lot of feedback because the feedback is all over the place as some people like or dislike new effects(remember when people thought Flip-Flop was going to be OP?), but this time, the feedback was almost 100% negative and they still decided it was good.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1934781#Comment_1934781
They are still going to break something with the game just by doing anything.
Exactly my point. It's better to wait a tiny bit and confirm everything works as expected. Altho, knowing the mess of a code DBD has become, I am fairly certain that the Open Handed change somehow affects Oni's power again.
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@Moxie said:
To apologize like that is to admit they made a mistake.
That is not going to happen. They are already doubling-down on the UI change with not_queen saying "we cannot go back".
I mean, not going back is fine as they probably mean code-wise, but they can definitely improve the new UI to at least have a similar use to the old UI. Heck, they could even download old image files and simply move the tiles on the UI.
If there are people who can improve the UI 100000 fold by simply moving the existing UI components with paint, then the devs can do that too. I get that the new UI has a new code that would be really messy with the old UI standard, but no one necessarily wants the old UI, we would LOVE a new UI if the new UI at least improved upon the old UI.
Being able to know how much you hooked as a killer is great for the purposes of an emblem(those who think its useless, believe me, nothing is better than a quick confirmation on your post-game progress, altho I believe there should be an indication of who has and hasnt been hooked as 4 unique hooks also matter for emblems). Being able to know who is on deadhook as survivor and who hasnt been hooked at all is also great. Having the bottom side being relatively empty is also great for killers, because survivors cannot hide as easily in the lower corners of your vision anymore. The generator being in the top center is actually quite nice IMO as you can very quickly check it if you need to and its actually closer to the center of your screen. The survivor icons are nice, and I hope custom outfits will end up in that portrait too, and while the injured status needs getting used to, its actually quite nice and fits the style of the game. And I dont know what it is, but skillchecks as an action feel smoother, they barely lag behind anymore.
However, as I now complimented the new additions that prevent the UI from going back, here is a list if issues that doesnt rely on the coding of the UI and should be relatively easy to improve upon:
- The information is EVERYWHERE, why the ######### would anyone think its fine to spread out information on a game. Let alone that the information is away from your focus as killer, because the distance between the scoring system, survivor information, ability information and perk information is seperated by a grand canyon.
- The text and progress bar is TINY AS #########. WHAT IS THIS, A HUD FOR ANTS?
- IN WHAT WORLD WOULD YOU PLACE 3 OBJECTIVE MARKERS IN 3 SEPERATE PLACES?(I guess this is just point 1, and I am sure that this will repeat, but this is by far the largest issue).
- WHY IS THE DESIGN OF SKILLCHECKS SO CLEAN? THEY USED TO BE GRITTY AND IN THE STYLE OF THE DBD LOGO. It's such a tiny detail, but the tiny details are what made it so great.
- This is the last, but WHY THE ######### DO YOU PUSH THROUGH A DESIGN THAT 95% OF THE COMMUNITY DISLIKES? WE DID LIKE THE IDEA OF A NEW HUD BUT WE VOICED CLEARLY THAT THE CURRENT DESIGN WAS MESSY AS #########. HOW THE ######### ARE YOU SO STUBBORN THAT YOU IGNORE FEEDBACK? DO WE HAVE TO MAKE A POLL? IS STATISTICS TRULY THE ONLY WAY YOU'LL LISTEN? HERE IS A ######### STATISTIC:
Do people like the design of the new hud?
1 no |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
2 yes |||
95% of the community has voted no
THERE IS A ######### STATISTIC FOR YOU GUYS.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1928731#Comment_1928731
Is it really that hard to change a number value for a perk?
I mean, considering they are essentially recoding the game piece by piece right now, yes, I imagine it would be that hard without breaking another part of the game.
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@Anara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1934218#Comment_1934218
I like how you all tell me about that addon when in the original post i spoke about three addons....
Which 3? You only stated one and that you liked the "new" aura reading one(if you mean the pink addon, that was the old one, or did you mean the cigar box? Because that one is 50/50).
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Thing is, I left 3 years ago right before the EGC was even introduced as a concept. The game wasnt in a healthy state back then.
Now as I have played it off and on again for the past year, I can say that the game has periods of being amazing, periods where the game is horrible for both sides, and periods where either survivors or the killer can be really toxic without there being any hotfix for months.
They have changed their way a little bit, they listen more to what players want, they revisit perks from recent releases and alter them if they are either too static(aka map meta with ruin/undying), too weak or too strong. Which is much nicer than before, as its guaranteed for new perks to only be too strong for 3 months, rather than lasting for literal years.
You just literally happened to be coming back in a bad period. I am personally giving them up to the anniversary to make the necessary adjustments before I decide to actually uninstall. Untill then, im just gonna play it with friends and perhaps some customs. Because its still a fun game overall, its just a very, very ######### update.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1930970#Comment_1930970
Nah, I think 4 at base with the new 3 second reload is fine. Throw on Soda Bottle and Cork Stopper and you’ve got 5 bottles with a 2 second reload. For all intents and purposes that’s almost like having unlimited bottles.
Yeah true, but to me, there are a lot of addons that would work really well together to the point of having a totally different playstyle with clown, but only if you had a 5th bottle instead of only 4.
I really like killers who have very different playstyles. Myers, Doctor and Piggy are my favourite killers because I have 4-5 different playstyles that work in red ranks depending on which addons I use. So seeing addons on Clown that allow for very different playstyles and very off-meta perks to be amazing on those specific addons actually excited me, untill I realized that you're always 1 bottle short. And having to drop 1 addon for that bottle would make the perks too weak.
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@Anara said:
Im a survivor main, playing killer sometimes, im green rank killer and im ok with only two killers : legion and clown.
I was so excited for clown update but now im feeling disappointed...
First the new bottle : the speed boost effect is not that great and it takes sooo long to activate, between 3 and 4 secondes. Im asking why the new bottle turn white to yellow but the first one is activated immediatly ? The white gas should be removed and turn yellow immediatly. And why survivors can get the speed boost ? I really dont understand the point. And why bottles share the same charges ?
Second the addons rework : one addon was my favorite, the one that makes survivors exhausted a true powerful addon. Now it doesnt exist anymore. New ones, they are not that great, except aura reading one. Whats the point of switching colors if the second bottle takes time to activate ? Too easy to read for survivors and 0 trick...
Yes, maybe im not that great at killer, yes maybe i dont know how to use new bottle correctly. But I feel like I dont want to play clown anymore, im missing the old one already...
Is there clown mains here feeling the same ? Or some people who can give me tips ?
For me now it feels like more a nerf than a buff.
RIP mister puddles, it was a great time with you.
PS : sorry for my poor english
The exhausted addon needed to be removed. 30 second on an effect that remains when you're running? Fully negating any an entire perk slot on a survivor? That's simply broken.
As for the yellow gas, you're supposed to throw the bottle ahead of you in chase. You throw it in front of the survivor so the survivor doesnt get the bonus as they have to run away from you, then you throw a pink bottle towards the survivor. Now you have 10% extra movement speed while the survivor has -20% movement speed. That's 80% movementspeed vs 125%. You realize how easy it is to gain hits with Clown in this situation?
As for the "maybe who dont play killer at all tried to tell me to just use pink bottle and pouf ! Old clown is back. Dont speak if you dont know anything, its useless, like your comments."
I mean, this is 100% true. You even have a base pink addon. The ONLY thing gone from old clown is the exhaustion addon, and that one needed a rework anyway. The exhaustion addon from Clown was made back when exhaustion went down even if you were running. Then they made exhaustion permanent as long as you were running, causing this addon to be utterly broken(which is why later exhaustion addons and perks are only 3-8 seconds).
If you dont see how just using pink bottles is exactly how old Clown worked except with a base reload addon, then you simply didnt play Clown enough(or heavily relied on his exhaustion addon, which, again, you didnt really play clown if you did).
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@Yehzue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1933857#Comment_1933857
again it’s adjustable you can make it larger also it’s the top right corner that will not lose you a chase having to look to the right
Except that it makes EVERYTHING larger. And yes, sometimes it does lose you a chase. Sometimes you have to check whether or not the survivors in your view have anyone injured in case there is iron will, sometimes you have to check if the survivor you just injured is the survivor you thought you were chasing as people with the same skins can only be identified by having them injured. In those cases, having to look far away from where the survivor is, especially if you also have to check your power(billy, bubba, nurse, huntress, clown) and/or perks. You normally would have to look at most at 2 locations and between locations you would at least be able to keep track of everything.
If you could make the upper left corner bigger while making the power bigger/smaller depending on killer, well, then less people would complain.
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@Yehzue said:
Oh my fing god some of you are dramatic! It’s a movement update it’ll take at the most a week to relearn how to 360 and moonwalk but you want to remove something that makes the game look a lot better because you can’t moonwalk anymore. Some of you just ######### on the game for anything. Get off your high horses and realize it’s a game it’s not the end of the world that new movements were implemented, just play for a week and you’ll see this is better for the game. It’s honestly pathetic how most of you are asking to boycott the game over new movements.
People dont complain about how the movement worked, that didnt change. It's the way animations are done where people are complaining about.
When I am heavily injured, I dont think I would run the same way I run to the toilet with massive diarrhea and my pants dropped to my ankles.
Not only that, but they added this update too quick. They spend nearly a year to give every single survivor their own idle animation, their own injured animation. It was the same, mostly, but all characters at least felt different. Now they are just all David. I do understand that they can alter the skeletons based on survivor, however, why implement an unfinished product in the official game? Why not showcase it in the beta, see the response and tweak it untill its finished? That is why people are bitching about it. It's one of many unfinished alterations that are added to a game where things are supposed to be finished. Bugs and glitches will pretty much always exist, but why rush animations when its only fitting for David?
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This is what I instantly thought of when people complained that the yellow bottle wasnt useful because "2 pink bottles would do the same job". I mean, 2 pink bottles dont double slow down the survivor. They at best extend the hinderance timer. Having both 10% increase while survivors have a 20% slow tho? Thats like having bloodlust 3 and 3 stacks of play with your food at the same time.
My only downside about clown is that they kept his 4 bottle load out, I kinda wish he had 5.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Can confirm. None of the pallets felt unsafe at all. It's too easy to loop every single pallet. And they also added one of those pallets you have to break to get to the other side, like in lery's. If that wasn't enough, more breakable walls. Dumb rework really.
I dont have an issue with breakable walls, I have an issue with the location of breakable walls. Some are just added in that a killer is pretty much forced to kick, others you never even want to kick as a killer because it gives survivors practically an infinite. There are no in-between walls where its best for some killers to kick, but better for other killers to leave standing.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1930850#Comment_1930850
I play survivor. I know why survivors crawl. It was a rhetorical question: the OP was saying that killers slugging is boring, and I was pointing out that survivors seem to really enjoy it because they'd rather be slugged for 3+ minutes after everyone else is dead than move on to the next match. That's all.
Also, do slugged survivors make sounds? Did the devs ever fix that? If that's fixed I wanna know, I might unmute the TV if that's the case.
That issue of survivors not having any sound was fixed quick. It only remained on spirit for some time, and lets be honest, no one cares about a slugging spirit.
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@TragicSolitude said:
If it's such a yawn, why do survivors crawl away and drag things out?
I had two matches today where I downed the 3rd survivor and the 4th one was right there, so I downed the 4th one, hooked them, and.... where'd the 3rd one go?
No idea, so the match went on another 3-something minutes until they bled out. Apparently, bleeding out is the new thrill.
I mean, if you down people too much, people are gonna crawl away. If you leave survivors slugged for longer than 30 seconds, they cant do anything else but crawl.
So you're literally getting punished by survivors for leaving them too long. If you didnt leave them for so long, that 3rd survivor would be in hearing proximity. So things are being dragged out BECAUSE they are being slugged. No point in giving the killer a 4k if the 4k was reliant on slugging. Survivors know bleeding to death gives 0 emblems, while dying on hook gives you 2. There is no reason to not crawl away as a slug, other than being nice, but if you're slugged that long, you're not being nice to them so they have no reason to being nice to you.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1930546#Comment_1930546
I'd say these new animations are the ones that look outdated. They remember me of the animations DBD had during its beta. The idle positioning and the running while injured are things you won't ever see in a game.
See, my only guess is that they gave all survivors David's animation before they all get their own. Back in the beta, the same applied that all survivors shared Dwight's animation. So I would say give it some time, they probably want to release all updated animations at once and this game DID need a revamped animation.
My biggest issue is with the injured running, as it looks like my pants dropped to my ankles while I try to reach the bathroom before I ######### myself. Other than that, assuming the skeletons of the animations will be adjusted per survivor. They are fine.
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@Nossy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925353#Comment_1925353
Yeah thats true that sfw with 1 or 2 OoO could give some information thats messes with killer mindgame but like i said it had a counter, they can not do it close cause of TR so their Intel was incomplete (they cant see where the walls are except maybe in some empty part of certain map) and it was a rare occurrence cause OoO was a risky perk once the killer close the gap,also it didn't prevent the OoO himself to be mindgammed like the new one.
Now with the proposed changes I'm sure at least 3 on 4 survivors will have it so as killers, it will be very hight risk to use aura reading (especially close or long/infinite one like NC, I'm all ears, nemesis, undying, middle finger, vanity mirror etc...). Rn, there is only a few survivors perks that have aura reading cause aura reading is mostly for killers (who have supernatural powers) and survivors have notifications, TR and Red light (cause they developped sharp instinct).
But this perk as presented for now is too much, the OoO will be basically immune to mindgame every 30s (cause if the surv see the killer behind a wall, it doesnt matter the killer see him, its always an advantage for the surv) + every surv who run it will turn aura reading into their advantage so pentotially 20ish perk and equal add-on will become survivors aura reading perks for free.
"it doesnt matter the killer see him" really? You do realize that seeing each others aura means mindgames on both sides are fully negated? A survivor cant mindgame when their aura is being shown. A survivor trying to mindgame right before their aura is being shown will be downed instead of gaining 15 seconds in chase
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925552#Comment_1925552
Mathematically that would be 18 seconds of wasted time just to mend with 3x6, the theoretical time you would save mending with teamates is wasted by the fact they can't do anything, no matter what you either take 12x1 2x8 or 3x6 pick your poison
and yes their are unique for the consistency of deep wound not for having it from the survivor team
It really depends on the situation whether or not mending/healing is a waste of time. I sometimes rather have everyone healthy working on the final gen, than having 1 injured to lead into a pop goes the weasel. 18 seconds wasted vs 20 seconds saved?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925469#Comment_1925469
Im just speaking as a general for most likely why a survivor wouldn't target doctor
Of course I know the intricacies of his power and how to use it
Im just giving a general of why survivors might not complain about him as much because frankly most doctors I see abide by this list of not being able to use his power properly, and while I claim to be better then them but not by much I can say that survivors don't ever see people playing doctor well enough for him to be a major threat as most people just play enough doctor to get a grasp for him and gain his perks then jump ship to someone frankly more interesting
And yes madness tier 3s astounding ability to make you snap out of it for 12 seconds so you can't do gens is technically directly impacting gens there are still others that you forgot
for example deep wound from legion or deathslinger which also makes people do an interaction for 12 seconds or 8x2 with a friend or they just bleed out and go down
Thing with legion, tho, is that 2 survivors can mend you and remove deepwounds within 6 seconds. With doctor, pig and victor, YOU are the sole responsible survivor responsible to get out of your position, no help, no way to speed it up. Deep wounds helps and mostly works its full effect, but not having any way to speed it up at all?
Besides, there are other ways that survivor get deep wounds. BT being quite a common one and very easily activated by any killer. Forcing them to mend even when they normally would not need to. The only time I end up slugging survivors was because someone did an unsafe unhook without carrying BT and hoping I'd respect that. I ALWAYS hit the survivor off the hook if I cant hit the unhooker before they finish unhooking. Because having 1 survivor mend in the corner of a map while I have any perk that allows me to put pressure on the gen that the remaining survivors are working on, is a net gain. The only reason I would not hit that juicy BT is if I simply am not close enough to get a quick hit.
Considering BT is almost in every single match, Legion and Deathslinger arent actually that unique in their power. Legion is more about keeping survivors injured, while deathslinger(who fits the same BS as Nurse and Spirit in terms of you dont counter the killer, the killer is the one countering him/herself) is about getting a hit ASAP and then ending the chase as soon as you can shoot. Which both are more chase-related abilities than they affect gen progression. Sure, Legion has a nice consistency, making him at least quite powerful on gen progression, but that's not exactly what his main power is about as you can counter being hit by doing a fake locker/fake vault/stun the killer/fake pallet vault if the killer vaults the pallet. So relying on Legion's power to reduce gen progression isnt actually that good of a strategy. Relying on his ability to keep survivors injured and essentially keeping them on 1 health state(aka, free instadowns) gives Legion far much pressure by having consistent hooks.
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@Hopesfall said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925220#Comment_1925220
So you think the first year or two were balanced and thus the changes were unwarranted? Of course survivors had to be nerfed, it was pathetically sad how much power survivors had.
4 insta gens
literal infinites
pallet vacuums
darkness offerings that stacked
little to no gen defense options for killers
etc .. and the only things killers had were insta mori's
of course all that nonsense had to go, it shouldn't even be debatable
Oh, want to hear some valid complaints?
Nurse was able to get a 4k, with 0 perks or addons, while survivors ran 4 brand new parts.
Nurse countered any infinite without counterplay
Nurse countered any pallet without counterplay
Nurse defended ALL her gens, no matter what the 3 gen was, even if it was the biggest map, while she also gained hooks.
This Nurse, was not touched for 4 whole years.
Other than that, there was no counter to Agitation and Iron Grasp as you could reach the basement wherever you were.
No counter to a killer getting 3 kills and facecamping the hatch.
No counter to Wraith other than the MacMillain Coal Tower infinite.
No counter to Billy who could make full 180's with their adjusted mouse sensitivities, making any place that is not a window impossible.
Ofcourse those things had to be nerfed, its pathetically sad how much power some killers had. Yet the only thing you think of is the instamori? I mean, Infinites were the only true bullshit thing, as Brand New Parts were hard to get by, and survivor bloodpoint gain was terrible, let alone that bloodwebs cost a fortune to reset. Where Billy got an ebony mori every single page with killers having a decent amount of bloodpoints for every single match.
Not even talking about the nightmare that was old Dying Light. If you were the obsession, you were being mori'd within the first minute of the match or spend the rest of the match on a hook. The only counterplay to Dying Light was staying on the hook. DC and you'd ######### over your team. Suicide and you'd ######### over your team. Stay on hook, and after 2 minutes, you'd ######### over your team. Get saved from the hook, the killer downs you after bodyblocking you to wait out the borrowed time, and get mori'd to ######### over your team.
Should I talk about how old NOED didnt have any counter too? 2 minutes long you were ######### with the only thing you could do was hide and hope to not be found. Killer just bringing Agitation, Noed and Iron Grasp on a trapper, and you would be dead in the basement(at least No One Left Behind had some value back then to kinda counter NOED, but not really). Or how Unnerving Presence actually had near impossible skillchecks to the point that they nerfed it before they even released Doctor who felt like the embodiment of Unnerving Presence back then? Or that STBFL in combination with Unrelenting actually allowed you to not care whether or not you landed a hit or not because you would regenerate fast enough to hit a survivor twice while essentially being todays STBFL with 7 permanent stacks(and quickly after became the 40% reduction and benefitted heavily from DS as you could down obsessions before they could even reach any potential infinite, which were patched out of the game 3 weeks before?). Or how Tinkerer made any killer back then with charge addons a nightmare to face(talking about instant decloak wraith, instant blink nurse, machine gun huntress and instant chainsaw billy?)
Or were all those balanced and their changes, which werent in the first 2 years, unwarrented?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925425#Comment_1925425
Except that I'm not biased- I play a ton of survivor (usually because of the rift). Anyone with an objective opinion knows that this game favors survivor , even in solo que. The problem is that most survivors are spoiled and expect to escape every time. Your team is naturally going to hurt you sometimes, but gens go too fast/loops are too strong for the game to favor killer. Anyone screaming about 0 counterplay to Nurse and Spirit lacks game knowledge.
You're wrong about that tho. If the game favored survivors, then how come 70% of the time, killers get a 3k? If the game was balanced, you would expect a 2k being the average rather than a 3k. Because even though its an assymetrical game, you cant always "win" as killer and call the game fair. Its 4 survivors versus 1 killer, so if they are equally skilled, you would expect a 2k. Yet if killers and survivors are equally skilled, Killers have a massive edge towards a win instead of a draw.
So how does the game favor survivors, when equally skilled survivors lose their matches most of the time? No survivor expects to escape everytime, all survivors simply want to live in a round long enough to do more than just being chased all game. No survivor would be mad at being killed 3 matches in a row if they actually were given the oppertunity to have input. No survivor bitches about a 4k against a piggy because it feels earned, survivors ######### about spirit because there is no input on the survivor side that matters in a chase. "Standing still" is not a mindgame unless there was an actual noticable difference between Spirit's husk and Spirit herself(standing up close with a magnifying glass isnt noticable).
And I am a killer main, I use very off-meta builds that according to people like you shouldnt have any effect, yet I've been able to get 4k's against survivor SWF's with 5k hours. Your argument would probably be that those survivors are scrubs, but the thing is, people who dodge hits on a Spirit or a Nurse simply guessed correctly. The only counter to a Nurse is having a wall, the only counter to a Spirit is walking and hoping the player is actually deaf.
Both are essentially a position where there is 0 information on you and actually is the killers fault for underestimating the survivor and assuming they would make a mistake, and those situations are essentially non-existant and last for maybe 2 seconds at best. That isnt counterplay, that is flipping a coin.
Still dont believe me?
Against a Doctor, I can pre-emptively drop a pallet so that he has to either kick it or loop me around it. I can predict how long his shock effect would last to be able to still vault or drop a pallet, I can mindgame him around a wall because he at best hears me breathe if he listens very closely, while I can hear his footsteps if I listen very closely. I can make a move that allows me to dodge a hit, or I could not see a move coming that ends up hitting me. THIS is counterplay. Being able to accurately predict a killer and actually have behaviour that actively makes them question your next moves or decide to brute force you and hope you dont get any distance from questioning your plans.
Against a Nurse? If I run to any loop, she teleports and can adjust with the second one to hit me. If she was out of range anyway, she still zoned me to a smaller corner of the map while being a lot closer. At one point, if I no longer am able to make distance, I reach a pallet. If I drop it, she blinks and I get a hit, if I dont drop it, she blinks and I get a hit. If I drop it and vault it, she blinks and blinks back over, I get a hit. If I drop it and double fault it, she still gets a hit. If I somehow stun her, she blinks twice, and if I didnt make the geometrically optimal distance, she gets a hit. If she questions where I am at, she just blinks once or twice to scout pretty much the entire area I am in and get a hit as soon as she can blink again.
No matter what you do, assuming the Nurse is at a similar skill as you are, there is NO counterplay. Only the Nurse making mistakes.
But how does Spirit fall into that same group? Well, if I run to any loop, she can burst her power to get closer. Once she is close enough, all she needs to do is listen carefully to my movements and I cant do anything. Even if I walk with Iron Will, she can still hear my footsteps and breath. She has the ability to perfectly find my location, then simply phase for 1 second and give me a hit, if she makes a mistake, she still zoned me and is able to get a hit next time she tries. If she loses me, all she needs to do is stand still and listen for 1 second before actually going into phase to quickly check the parameter to find me and get a hit(unless I am in a locker, which is essentially giving her an instadown).
Once again assuming the skill levels are similar, there is NO counterplay to that. Only the Spirit making mistakes.
That is the difference between killers like Doctor and killers like Spirit and Nurse. This is why we want Spirit to either phase in the normal world while phasing at a similar pace that she phases out of existance while she is not phasing. Or at least keep her breathing while she is phasing. For Nurse, well, I feel like it should be easier to cancel her power with a flashlight burn. You literally cannot burn a Nurse with any flashlight addons, EVEN THOUGH she can be flashlight burned while teleporting. So why does she even have that "weakness" if the only way it works is 2 flashlights shining onto her at the same time. And even then, she gets warned quite easily for it and can instantly trigger her blink. And even if that were not the case, the fatique rate is EXACTLY the same as a normal blink, essentially making flashlights useless against a Nurse even though they SHOULD be useful. The only counterplay to Nurse's ability cannot be used because its not a weakness. It doesnt cancel a blink, it doesnt stop her from blinking, it doesnt stun her untill she basically already would hit fatique anyway, it does nothing. So how would you counterplay a Nurse, other than losing sight and the Nurse having a massive ego by assuming the survivor is bad?
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@bjorksnas said:
Doctor has no real map pressure other than saying he knows where survivors are
His chase potential is meh without addons
he isn't much better off then say clown or legion
You dont know how to use Doc's ability properly then. He actually has one of the 3 killer abilities that DIRECTLY affect gen progression:
Madness t3 - cant do gens
Reverse Beartraps - could do gens at the risk of dying to a trap
Victor - survivor cant do anything other than unhook other survivors while wearing Victor
So yes, Doc HAS map pressure, you simply dont know how to use that part of his ability in your favor.
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Because Doctor has counterplay. The charts dont reflect HOW the killer got that many kills.
You know what Doctor and Pig(and Twins now too if she attaches Victor to someone) have in common? They have an ability that keeps survivors off gens. They essentially are able, with their basekit, to lenghten a match longer to have more room to make extra kills.
So Doctor performs better if he uses his skills better, but there are still ways to counter him. Where Freddy and Spirit? Well, Freddy just places traps to slow you down with the same slow as Clown, OR he places pallets that are indistinguishable from normal pallets guaranteeing free hits where he otherwise would not. Both are guessing games that for every 10 seconds you dont get a hit, it's Freddy's mistake rather than you outplaying the killer. Same for Spirit, its just a guessing game where Spirit is the one making a mistake, not you making a play.
The only reason you dont see people ######### about Nurse is because she is actually hard to master, and even then, at least breaking line of sight allows for some counterplay.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925310#Comment_1925310
You honestly believe that a survivor being able to run the killer for the entire match, with nothing that the killer can do, is comparable to Spirit? You can argue she is too strong, but you can do some things to stop her. There is nothing you can do about an infinite.
Trapper and Nurse could deal with all of the windows while Hillbilly could deal with the vast majority of them(while being able to have insane wallgrinds that spun you around walls) and that was 75% of the killers back then and Wraith actually could vault faster than survivors could with his addons, so windows werent really a big deal for Wraith. Meaning that there was ways to counter an infinite in almost all situations.
Survivors who were trying infinites were not doing gens either. As with most killers you could brute force the chase even with an infinite as survivors had to play flawlessly to keep that infinite an actual infinite. It might be a chase that lasts 5 whole minutes, but it would end.
So yes, with the dev's mindset of "the danger of a match being over before the first gen pops" applies there too: "the danger of a survivor endlessly looping you". Which is still possible, although its been extremely nerfed.
There is nothing you can do against a Spirit that you cant do against an infinite: You just guess and hope you guessed lucky. The only way to counter a spirit is to truly soulread her, which also applies to an infinite. If you can fully soulread a survivor, you can battle almost any infinite with just an m1 playstyle. I wouldnt really call "actual mindreading" a legitimate counter to a killer. That's like saying "actually mindreading" survivors is a legitimate counter to infinites. You would disagree on one, so why not on the other? Because there are perks to counter it? You mean, perks that are useless against half the killer roster, purely running that every single match in the slight chance you'll actually encounter one? You mean like how Bamboozle could counter old infinites meaning that old infinites should return because there are perks against it now?
How are you not aware of your bias here? Any huge, but necessary nerf to survivor is a fix, but any huge, necessary nerf to killer is unwarrented? Should I remind to you that there was absolutely 0 counterplay to nurse? Even if you had 10 times the hours in survivor than the nurse ever played, there would be 0 counterplay. Is that a healthy killer in your opinion? One that the most skilled survivors cant counterplay? You mean like how the most skilled survivors could use an infinite that has near 0 counterplay as a killer? Seriously, any survivor "fix" you can think of, I can find a comparable killer "fix".
Take the original DS for example, that perk was nothing because original Dying Light was a thing. If old DS was a fix, then surely you would agree Dying Light was also a fix as old Dying Light was far more powerful than old DS, or is it now suddenly a nerf?
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@Nossy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919070#Comment_1919070
Your also fogot Bitter murmur, Rancor (and maybe more I didn't think myself), of course there is no reason to not run it cause its a massive buff to my pov.
And like you said, 3rd seal could have been a (very good) counter to this new situation but its an Hex, so it will mostly last 1 minute 90% of game (at high lvl).
And since we don't know yet if it will not work with undetectable status (perk or power) it may be even more powerful.
At least old OoO didn't work inside TR so it had a counter once you close the gap, I understand that some killers was feeling that it was a pain (like trapper's player) but as a killer main who like to play almost all killer alternately, I'd prefer they keep it the way it is rather than completly kill 20ish killers perk and 15ish add on.
Well, They dont give too much information. The biggest issue with OoO, was when a survivor had OoO while hiding behind a generator or something, giving the person who is being chased absolute perfect counterplay as no matter what the killer tries to pull off by hiding red light, that survivor can and will pass on that information that there is moonwalking going on.
Other than that, while it does counter Killer aura readings hard, I dont think it really destroys them tho. All I want for the new OoO is to NOT light up when your aura is being shown to the killer as it would completely negate the power of Spine Chill.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925220#Comment_1925220
Taking out infinites that should never have been in the game isn’t a nerf, it’s a fix. And by “everyone be reasonable” I mean the mentality that the truth is always in the middle/ false equivocating. Sometimes the reality is that things fall one way. “Game shouldn’t be balanced around the 1%” translates to we should balance for players who don’t know how to play.
So when the opponent gets a significant nerf, it's a "fix" instead. But when the killer gets a fix, its suddenly a nerf?
Double standards on this guy. When Spirit is getting a nerf, she is gonna be "fixed".
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@Aneurysm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919070#Comment_1919070
I think a clever Myers with scratched mirror could definitely use it against them, with OoO just becoming a less reliable spine chill. Once you suspect or confirm they have it, just sneak up on them without stalking and they'll probably feel secure with the perk not lit up.
Well, thing is:
I can confirm spine chill, side-eye aura's and manipulate my FOV to get closer without them getting suspicious.
With the new OoO, you need to be alert for pretty much 30 seconds in the case the myers doesnt stalk in the case he is coming to you, with 2 OoO readings within 20 seconds pretty much guaranteeing he is coming your way.
Essentially, you cannot really manipulate OoO and get the location of survivors without them ever suspecting a thing. You will either need to waste more time per survivor to lower their suspicion(which means higher risk of losing the game), or start guessing where survivors are, stalk quickly and hope you were correct.
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@CLB198 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919070#Comment_1919070
wouldn't scratched mirror not count because it makes the shape stay undetectible?
Let me quote myself: "They better make it so that the perk doesnt light up whenever your aura is being shown, which I would assume would be the case."
Right now, OoO also lights up regardless if the killer is undetectable or not. Giving you information that the killer was on your screen(even inside . This is why on Midwich, even stealth killers have issues catching up with OoO users as they simply use the perk lighting up as information on where you are as a killer. Only Hag, Nurse and Freddy had ways around the OoO, the rest of the killers it simply was a matter of how quick they were able to close the gap. Even Billy, Spirit, Blight and Legion who could catch up quite fast, still only began the chase by catching up as survivors would go into the side rooms to start looping. Even a Wraith, who would be fully invisible to the OoO user, could be ran around the second floor for 3 minutes before he caught up with OoO.
So assuming that part remains the same, the survivor would know they are being seen by the killer, giving them reason to pay more attention to their surroundings and no longer be caught off guard. Sure, you still have the element of surprise on WHERE you are coming from, but there is no more the element of WHEN you are coming, which is the biggest reason Scratched Mirror even works. Spine chill is already deadly and that one works regardless if you know if the survivors are there or not, let alone that you can play around that quite easily by side-eyeing and moonwalking. You couldnt play around the aura reading from Scratched Mirror as they are always shown even if its outside your vision. Meaning there is no way to get around it.
Essentially, in the case of Spine Chill you use the aura reading to get their position and then use your FOV to manipulate their expectations. In the case of OoO lighting up whenever your aura is visible cannot be manipulated in the same way. Survivors will be given the information that you are likely coming for them within the next 20 seconds, so all they need to do is work on a gen for 20 seconds and then start moving away. If it triggers more than once, odds are that the killer is around the corner and its smart to move instantly. It would slow down gens being popped, sure, but it puts t1 myers at even a bigger disadvantage than he already is. I mean, IMO 105% movement speed, no lunge and extremely slow stalking movement is already disadvantageous enough to a point where you can loop him for eternity, causing him to only be good on indoor maps anyway. If the map is anything else than an indoor map, you're essentially ######### even if you use PWYF and NOED to compensate for the lack in movement speed. That is how "bad" that addon already is. So having a potential meta-perk even giving it more disadvantages, including the fact that 1 killer map offering can be fully cancelled by 1 survivor map offering, makes t1 myers even worse than it already is(while also using up the map offering, meaning you literally spend refreshing your bloodweb 10 times for nothing).
I DC on about 10% of my t1 myers matches already due to map offerings being in survivor's favor quite often(I mean, t1 myers on shelter woods? Might aswell dc and wait 5 minutes without the stress of losing all 5 gens before even hooking 1 survivor), so having that OoO essentially fully negate stealthy gen grabs would sting extremely hard as you literaly cannot afford to dedicate to any chase.
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@MadLordJack said:
Not only will it tell you every survivor aura reading ability the killer has, it lets you counter it indirectly. I'm All Ears? Now you have the same wallhacks! BBQ? Give them false info and know if they're coming for you! Nurses Calling? You know when to pack up and run and when to finish healing! Literally any of the aura reading add-ons? Either the BBQ treatment, the I'm All Ears treatment, or both!
Seriously, it's a good perk. I hope this is the change it gets, because it is still powerful. As in, maybe still the most powerful aura reading perk in the game. Sure, you might have trials where you aren't the obsession and the killer has no survivor aura reading perks, but that's still OoO value.
The BBQ play for false info is already done untill the killer is confirmed to not have BBQ, so that doesnt really matter too much. The bigger harm to BBQ is that it essentially gives survivors who run OoO also Kindred for 4 full seconds. The rest, yeah, pretty accurate. Especially since only 1 survivor has the "downside" of being shown every 30 seconds, even though you can hide behind gens or inside a locker for that short moment.
New OoO is probably going to be the main 4th perk instead of Adrenaline. I mean, what is 1 free health state compared to fully countering Nurses Calling?
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Let me give you a full list of places where OoO is useful against, or at the very least easily confirms it's usage:
Perks:
I'm All Ears
BBQ
Nurses(massive one)
Bloodwarden(before the killer can hook someone)
Deerstalker(I mean, not THAT useful, but still a perk confirmation)
Retribution(massive one too)
Undying
Lightborn
Territorial Imperative
Addons:
All Seeing Blood
Scratched Mirror
Vanity Mirror(which is already kinda bad as you still have a Red Light AND decreased movementspeed, imagine now having practically permanent aura readings against a stealth build, sure, OoO already does that, but at least current OoO is rare, the new OoO would be a meta perk)
Glass fragment addons
Amanda's Letter
Amanda's Secret
Renjiro's Bloody Glove
Hellshire Iron
Tattoo's Middle Finger
Leprose Lichen(which is very niche, sure, but it would be utterly useless once new OoO is meta)
Glowing Concoction
Restraint addons
Hag's Willow addons
Essentially, there is going to be no reason not to run it. They better make it so that the perk doesnt light up whenever your aura is being shown, which I would assume would be the case. It already heavily impacts niche builds that are only effective because you dont know you are being watched. Even Distortion has limited uses and you dont necessarily know WHY Distortion is being triggered, let alone showing you where the killer is.
It basically means that, as a killer, if you want to use Aura based builds, you're going to need Third Seal.
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@DawnMad said:
If you didn't eat their DS the whole game and still only hooked them once or not at all the whole game, then I do think they deserve a free escape if they manage to go open a door before you down them. That's you underperforming.
Not really, there are 4 survivors, odds of you hooking someone only once is practically 100%. Heck, odds of you hooking 2 people only once while 2 people are dead or dead on hook with 3 gens left is quite common. All survivors then need to do is wait with triggering their generators and pop them in quick succession for a DS play to be made. Let alone that you cannot always eat a DS(Ormond for example).
As long as gen regression is the way it is right now, you cannot always blame underperformance. Some maps are simply too large with massive genspread that can only be countered if you focus all your perks on gen regression and hope survivors arent good enough against the killer you picked, or settle for a 2k. I normally dont need to worry about DS at all as its part of my playstyle, but the very few times I do worry, the map and RNG are already heavily against my favor.
You shouldnt have a game where the map RNG, map size, gen spread and gen regression are already against your favor have a perk that allows you to bully a killer. Same applies to survivors, except that survivors at least have viable counterplay against the vast majority of killers. DS surviving so easily into the end game when DS is designed to prevent killers from rushing kills is bad design. Thats like having NOED that can trigger before the EGC without survivors being able to cleanse a totem untill they finish all gens.
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1916896#Comment_1916896
You were obviously doing something wrong then.
DS was never disabled if the skill check was not attempted.
Your OP makes no sense.
welp, if you read on slightly further, you could have deduced that I simply had a bugged game when I tested it, and since I made the assumption of the game always working as it should, causing me to have a game where DS was considered triggered even though I had not. Which, was not an issue I ever would have thought could even be a problem.
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@Clevite said:
You have gotta be the only killer complaining today. Today is a good day, my friend.
Eh, DS never was a problem to me, gen regression has always been.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1916896#Comment_1916896
Whatever you want to call it - you are wrong on that one.
Well, I literally did this earlier this week, got disabled, not deactivated. Guess I must have been unlucky with a bug then, cus I never tried it after that.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
If you want to save DS, you can already do that right now - just dont hit the Skill Check and you have your DS after the next Unhook.
That DS now deactivates when the Survivor is tapping a Gen does not really change the possibility of saving it until the Lategame.
Everytime I did, DS was disabled. Not deactivated.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
You know you already could do this by just not hitting the skillcheck right?
That's DISABLING, I am talking about DEACTIVATING. And no, the only way to deactivate DS was to let the 60 second countdown pass on.
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@onemind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/223970/ds-just-became-a-bigger-issue-to-me
Counter point they could always do that just by not hitting it but why would you not do that because you may not get the chance to do that again
Not hitting it would DISABLE the perk for the remainder of the match, not DEACTIVATE it. The perk used to only DEACTIVATE after 60 seconds so it can be reused, now it deactivates whenever a survivor wants.
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@crowbarman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1916670#Comment_1916670
Never saw a Mori that let me kill 3 survivors instantly with 1 gen remaining. I seem to remember having to catch them, down them, and hook them at least once. Maybe I am misremembering and there was an instant "Kill all" button that I forgot to push.
as if getting 1 hook is hard.
For a key to work for a 3 escape, you need to finish 2/3rd of survivor objectives and instantly win the match.
For a mori, to get an easy 3k, all you need was 1 hook for a mori and permanently cripple survivors for the remainder of the match to a point where 2 more kills is easy as pie, hooking a second one would give you the option to kill even faster.
Essentially, a key is a snowballing effect and can be countered. A mori was anything but a snowballing effect as it could be used near instantly without any counter.
Just because their on-use effect differs doesnt mean #########. Pop and DS were compared in effect a lot, but Pop and DS work very differently.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
IMO it should be removed and we revert to what came before, which was far superior.
The bloodpoint based one? The one where everyone could reach rank 1 by just doing gens?
The victory cube one? The one where people were rushed to death because rushing kills was the easiest way to both pip and 3k, giving people maybe 3 minutes in a match at best? Causing all survivors to massively drop in rank regardless of their skill as the first 2 people to die were guaranteed to lose pips?
How are those superior in any way? Anyone can gain bloodpoints, anyone can rush kills. It takes a lot more skill to be good at multiple things than it takes to focus on only 1 part of the game. The current emblem system, while flawed, is objectively superior to what came before. Unless you want the DC penalty to be gone, as people will constantly DC or suicide if they are getting rushed out every single game anyway.
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@SilentPill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1911406#Comment_1911406
And some gates spawn so far apart it’s literally a free escape for the survivor. I’m sure it balances out.
You would not get these immersive claudettes with left behind sitting around waiting for the team to die if the hatch didn’t exist.
As it stands it’s way too easy to pip or black pip as survivor. I should not be able to 4K an entire lobby and they all still maintain their rank 1 for saving each other and dying.
Meanwhile, pipping requirements for killer basically equates to how many second chances you gave the survivors. I 4K constantly with killers like Billy and never pip because I barely M1.
I think the old system was far better and the quality of the survivors you saw in red ranks was much greater than what you see now.
Its too easy to black pip or pip as a killer, its easier to lose pips as a survivor, even if the killer is bad. The only way to depip as a killer is to pretty much ignore gens and slug too often.
As a survivor, you need to survive at least 3 generators to black pip and killers can easily get you out prior to that. The fact that you can depip against bad killers because you're being rushed is simply bad balancing.
As for gates spawning too far apart, kinda? Only if you have no clue where the final survivor is. Essentially, even if gates spawn on opposite sides of the map, killers have tactics that still give them a kill. Where if gates spawn on the same wall dont offer the same position for survivors unless there are a shitton of walls inbetween.
As for quality, I mean, I guess? The quality of red rank killers sucked ass back then tho. Its not hard to get a 3k consistently.
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@SilentPill said:
Just dump the whole system and go back to the victory cube.
0k double depip
1k depip
2k safety
3k pip
4k double pip
For survivor it’s survive and pip, or die and depip. Get rid of the hatch too. That would get rid of a ton of the boosted apes in red ranks.
Considering you cant really survive every match, no, death and depip shouldnt be equals for survivors. Unless you want all 4 survivors to escape 50-ish% of the time(rather than the 1% it currently is).
As for the hatch, the hatch is there to balance out gate-spawns. As some gates spawn so close together a killer can stand in one place and keep watch on both of them. To remove the hatch is to rework the game where gates cannot possibly spawn close enough to keep watch over both.
The victory cube is more in place for tournament setting and has no place in any casual play.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1908998#Comment_1908998
"How would you suggest take more skill? That would require a nerf to something"
Well it would be hard to do because of just how they designed Freddy from his rework. IE bad. He was made very simple like Clown but no one complains about Clown because he's weak. If Clown was as strong as Freddy they'd be complaining because there isn't much skill ceiling there. IE complaints come from a perceived skill to power ratio, meaning people don't mind strong killers if they feel they require a lot of skill. Scottjund actually released a video that summed up my thoughts on it pretty similarly. There was room for skill adding in Freddy's old design but new Freddy doesn't have much room for that even though it's what he needs.
In other words I'd incorporate some of his old features into current Freddy as they had room for skill expression. This is obviously quite vague but there would be a lot to type here.
"Exhaustion add ons were made around the time exhaustion came back during a chase, since that's no longer the case they need to go"
And even with current exhaustion addons, exhaustion perks are still way too strong and have literally no downsides, costs, or negatives. Just because they were made during a time when exhaustion was way strong, does not defacto imply that they need to be nerfed. There is literally zero reason not to run an exhaustion perk right now if you care about winning unless you just want to meme. That is a sign of poor design. You should always be weighing pros and cons when picking perks. You do that on many killer perks, but very little on survivors ones, like most the exhaustion ones.
IE just because something that was OP got nerfed, doesn't mean it's not still OP, it's just less OP.
The exhaustion perks are literally a 3rd health state every 40 seconds..that's insane. As if the counter play wasn't already abysmally non existent, you want it even less.
Lets take a look at current exhaustion perks or addons that are at the level of where you want these better exhaustion addons brought to. Are literally any of them used almost at all? No, they're not. Why? Because they're trash. What's worse is we are in a meta where every single person runs an exhaustion perk...so in a meta where it is the absolute best case scenario for those exhaustion perks/addons and they still aren't being used...that should tell us something.
"Plague needs a rework but I think myers and pig are fine (I don't see the issue with them)"
Myers is pretty easy to bully, he needs some buffs substantially. Pig however is trash.
"PH needing a buff? Yikes"
He still gets bullied. No map pressure and poor design his cages and ranged attack that need reworking.
I'd push him more in the rework direction than I would buff to be more precise. Poor design choices on a couple things.
I mean, there is almost zero reasons to run gen regression perks with most survivor builds nowadays, especially since loops are made better and maps are made more balanced both ways. Yet people still heavily rely on using Pop in 3-gens and ruin/undying.
Exhaustion perks are fine. They are there to discourage chasing. Especially since killers could theoretically chase you off-hook and rush a kill before 2 gens are even finished. If exhaustion perks need a downside, killers should get a guaranteed depip for rushing a kill. Exhaustion perks exist to reduce kills being rushed, just like DS exists to reduce kills being rushed.
I mean, if there is no obsession in a game, the only way to not get rushed out is by having an exhaustion perk, if you dont have an exhaustion perk in a game without obsession, you're going to be dead within 2 minutes and you might aswell suicide on hook.
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@BaldursGate2 said:
If you think trapper is bad, you never played him with iri stone and purple sack.
Ah yes, the only 2 addons that make trapper a better than average killer. This is exactly why trapper needs a buff. I mean, this is like saying Myers doesnt need a buff because infinite t3 is a possibility.
The only way to sustain those addons is to be a p3 killer. And to be forced to grind 7 million bloodpoints to have a consistent viable build like iri stone and purple sack is being a balanced killer in your opinion?
In what world do you think a killer is fine when his 2 strongest addons make him slightly better than average?
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@EvanSnowWolf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1898533#Comment_1898533
You seem weirdly obsessed with blood point costs. Which are not relevant to gameplay.
And I get like 30K a match. I've never gotten 90K outside of an event.
They are heavily relevant to gameplay tho, it's a reward you get that you invest in addons and offerings for future games. Not recieving enough bloodpoints will heavily impact your gameplay.
And that's on you not using offerings or perks, my average killer BP per match is 85k because Survivor Pudding is easy to get, while my average survivor BP per match is 37k depending mostly on if killers camp&tunnel or not, and escape cakes are very rare considering there are 73 other things that fill up survivor bloodwebs.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1898310#Comment_1898310
Survivors aren't meant to have a perk that completely nullifies a killer's power. That'd be busted if all four survivors ran it. It's bad enough playing a stealth killer vs Spine Chill, especially tier 1 Mikey. Might as well not exist on the same map as them at all.
I suck at survivor and even I can fill my coffers running Plunderer's Instinct and Ace in the Hole. Killers don't have chests to loot. And most killers don't have anything as powerful as a key.
You say killers don't require add-ons to win the game. Sure, but killers are designed to need add-ons to function decently. Their base powers are weaker than they should be so that players will use add-ons. Some people can still win without add-ons, but some survivors can also win without a single perk or item.
Killers have powers. Survivors have resources on the map to help them, and pallets and loops used efficiently can be very powerful.
I never stated the effect would completely nullify a power, let alone that it would stack. Spine Chill is easy to work around with.
"I suck at survivor and even I can fill my coffers running Plunderer's Instinct and Ace in the Hole. Killers don't have chests to loot. And most killers don't have anything as powerful as a key."
That requires 2 perks and you escaping the match, while there are only 3 per match. Let alone that it doesnt always give you an item. As for anything as powerful as a key? Noed and mori's fill that role. Sure, mori's were nerfed hardcore, but keys are not that powerful. The only REAL power a key has, is 1 gen left with 3 survivors alive. That still requires survivors to almost complete their objective, while mori's(before their nerf) required killers to do less than 1/3rd of their objective. Now, what seems more balanced? Survivors doing 2/3th of their objectives to have 3 survivors escaping, or a killer doing 1/3rd of his objective to kill 4 survivors? I am not arguing keys need a nerf(personally, all I would change is the hatch not appearing untill 2 survivors are left, that way all a key can do is make the game a draw, which is fine). But you cannot argue that, up untill 1 month ago, killers didnt have access to anything as close as powerful to a key. Ebony Mori's were universal. Add on to that, that most killers had access to addons that instadown survivors without requiring much skill.
"Sure, but killers are designed to need add-ons to function decently."
Just like survivors are designed to need items and addons to defend themselves against a good killer. Sure, loops and powerful pallets are a thing, but except for a handful of poor map decisions(backwater swamp having tiny bits that prevent a killer from optimally walking while survivors easily walk over it, or Leri's having 3 god pallets without having any breakable walls), loops arent that powerful anymore. It actually requires a survivor to loop and mindgame better than a killer can chase and mindgame to make a chase last longer than 40 seconds.
"Some people can still win without add-ons, but some survivors can also win without a single perk or item."
Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Just because some people can, doesnt indicate the game isnt balanced, just that those people are extremely good at the game. You have people good enough at a game to literally knife everyone to death, that doesnt make knives OP in that game.
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@EvanSnowWolf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1898310#Comment_1898310
Why should there be a way for Survivor's to disable Killer add ons?
Survivors get:
16 perks and 4 items with 8 add-ons
Killers get:
4 perks and 1 power with 2 add-ons
These things are not comparable. At all.
Except that a killer has access to 20 addons while having a permanent "item" that can be refilled with at least 3 bloodwebs(roughly 150k BP) while having an offering that fully protects their addons. This is when the average killer BP per game is 30k, with BBQ easily doubling that and survivor pudding+bbq tripling that. Meaning its very easy as a killer to play 2 games with 4 addons, and potentially refill their entire addon kit.
Meanwhile survivors have access to 55 addons AND 18 items that require at least 12 bloodwebs(roughly 600k bp) and have an offering that only protects their items and addons if they die. They still lose addons when they escape, lose their items through Franklins etc. This is also when the average survivor BP per game is 20k, with escape cake possibly doubling that but WGLF isnt exactly strong enough to be as meta as BBQ is. Meaning that survivors need to play 13 games to fully refill their entire addon and item kit. Assuming survivors use items and addons every single game too, that means that every single game they would have to use a different item and addons.
I am not saying that there should be a perk that would permanently disable a killer addons(perhaps 1 addon temporarily, example: if facing an instakill T3 myers having a perk that disables a killer's addon when stunning him could either push Myers out of T3 or temporarily disable his instakills for a short amount of time). But if we're gonna be fair, survivors should be able to have access to a perk that still removes a killer's addons even if there is a Black Ward in place.
And other than only a handful of perks, killer perks and addons heavily outclass survivor addons. Any grey killer addon would be equal to a yellow or green survivor addon, any killer ability easily tops the item of survivors. It takes the combined value of 4 items and 8 addons to topple 1 killer ability and 2 addons. It takes the combined value of 16 perks to topple 4 killer perks.
The argument of 16 perks, 4 items 8 addons would only work if they actually were equal in power, which they are not. The only survivor perk that is actually too powerful is OoO as there is no vanilla counter other than camping that person to death. Because if that argument holds, I can easily argue 13 games vs 2 games.
This is why chests are not overpowered, as they are necessary to reduce the amount of BP spend for survivors.
The actual balance of items is a whole other issue, which doesnt have any impact on this. Yes, some items need to be (slightly) nerfed, other items need a (slight) buff. Just as some killer addons need a (slight) buff or nerf. That is not what I am arguing about. But looking at Franklin's and it effects specifically, yes, that is 100% unfair.
The survivor perk I have in mind that would mirror Franklins would be extremely weak, would only work for 20 seconds max and cannot stack with itself. I dont mind Franklins removing items from a match. My problem is that Franklins deletes items from the game entirely, regardless of offerings or perks used by survivors.
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@EvanSnowWolf said:
Franklin's Demise is literally the only perk in the game that is a counter to items.
Deal with it.
There are no perks to counter killer addons. Any survivor perks that counter a specific killer power(which is equal to an item), has been nerfed into the ground.
Let alone that Franklins bypasses White Ward too, while survivors do not have any perk to bypass Black Ward.
I dont mind the concept of Franklins in the game, but you cannot argue that it's balanced right now. It can take 4 entire bloodwebs to get the item and addons you need for a build on survivor, having a single perk cost a survivor 100k bloodpoints is simply not fair when in the average game, survivors earn back 25k BP. Having an addon like White Ward not even protect against Franklins(which would be fair, you'd remove the item from 1 match, but the survivor keeps it for the next)
Meanwhile a killer can play 1 game with survivor pudding+BBQ and easily gain 90k BP, returning all his investments into new addons and can protect his addons with a Black Ward and be guaranteed to not lose his addons.
No matter how you spin it, that is unfair, unbalanced and needs fixing. I dont think the concept on Franklins is the issue, killers need a counter against items. But as long as Killers dont have any risk to lose their addons, it simply is unfair.
And yes, I can make the argument that a lot of killers do not require addons to win a game. So the argument that items are not needed to win a game isnt a good argument. Items and addons are meant to make a game easier to win, it's the grind that's unfair. Heck, I sometimes play hours upon hours of killer just to refill my survivor items and addons because survivors dont have a viable grind to supply them with items.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think this would be used to turn him into a camping machine; and would also be up way too often.
I am all for trapper buffs; and he has a huge problem with aura reading but this would be a bit overkill for that one problem.
Most aura reading perks are fine tbh, OoO is the exception because it just turns him into machete man. I don't want to block out every aura perk; I just want OoO to not render my power useless- it takes all the fun from playing trapper away.
Maps should not be able to reveal his traps; and luck offerings should not affect them. It's already remarkably forgiving they don't down you if you are injured or even apply mangled or hindered or anything considering it's a Bear Trap.
I dont think it's that much of overkill tho, there are already plenty of moments where trapper places down traps without survivors ever seeing it, let alone that there are plenty of red rank games where Trappers face survivors with 0 killer aura reading perks and still win simply by assuming where they would put traps if they were playing Trapper and avoid 90% of traps in the first place.
Besides, considering Trapper needs to hold a trap in the first place and considering this "passive" would allow Trappers to dispatch of their traps more easily, its very easy to place down all the traps. And if that ends up being too powerful, they can always change some aura reading perks to override the undetectable status. Because those specific aura reading perks wouldnt hurt stealth killers too much anyway.
"and luck offerings should not affect them."
Well, they are essentially chance based. Having luck offerings/perks affecting them does make sense, especially considering the PTB is already changing the chances.
"It's already remarkably forgiving they don't down you if you are injured or even apply mangled or hindered or anything considering it's a Bear Trap."
Well, I mean, I can put my leg in the same beartrap twice too without incapacitating me, and adding hinderance as vanilla mechanic does make it a bit too powerful considering it means stepping in any trap essentially means you're down. And if you can get hit by a machete in the back without fainting, its kinda obvious that its more about game balance. Besides, if a survivor gets captured in 2 traps without being captured, you're ignoring that survivor on purpose to begin with. And ignoring survivors shouldnt benefit you. So balancing wise, it makes sense.
At best, you can have survivors have temporary hinderance if they hit 2 traps in relatively quick succession. Otherwise it can easily turn Trapper from a strategic killer into a free 4k monster. And we already have Spirit to deal with.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1880786#Comment_1880786
Hey, thanks for the wall of text that stillsbowes a clear misunderstanding of the core concept: TRAPPER CAN CAMP LIKE A BEAST AND YOU WANT TO MAKE HIM BETTER AT IT.
Also, I recognise those stats, they were from a very different meta. Perhaps gather your own. Back then I also saw way less info perks. No longer the case. And yes, stealth killers are a different problem that needs to be addressed, especially Wraith.
And you still don't know the first thing about camping to begin with, you literally explained how Hag is a territorial killer in your explanation of how she's not a territorial killer. Now I wonder: is territorial, in your mouth, just another word for "facecamping"?
Just stop and think about the situation you are trying to create. A killer that can lay down traps wherever he pleases directly around a hook and only damages solo survivors thanks to callouts. What a fun person you are.
Trapper can camp like a beast because players have to build that way to counteract his weakness. Spirit exists in the game without giving any information while she is phasing, let alone not giving any information that she is phasing. Trapper's weakness literally destroys his playstyle. You'll always have campers in the game, making him "better" at it wont increase the amount of campers, in fact, it would reduce the amount of campers since they can do something else besides being forced to camp.
" Perhaps gather your own."
I did, I have faced 100+ confirmed solo survivors(the vast majority of them being rank 1, hours ranging from 80-5000) in the past 2 weeks, and I dont even remember seeing more than 10 kindreds. I have not seen Alert in weeks. Bond is the most common, but Bond doesnt affect killer aura.
"And yes, stealth killers are a different problem that needs to be addressed, especially Wraith."
They are not a problem to the game. They have a different playstyle. The only issue with Wraith is boneclapper/coxclombed clapper in combination with all seeing blood. Other than that, he needs a buff.
"Now I wonder: is territorial, in your mouth, just another word for "facecamping"?"
No, territorial means defending an area by actively being in that area. Your meaning of territorial is simply "being able to defend an area", which is wrong. You can defend an area with any kind of killer by constantly returning to it. That doesnt make that killer territorial. With your definition, any killer would be a territorial killer as all killers need to defend gens. Hag is again, a spider. And by definition, spiders are not territorial predators.
"A killer that can lay down traps wherever he pleases directly around a hook and only damages solo survivors thanks to callouts."
Doesnt matter, at least 90% of solo survivors I have seen, didnt see me place down traps and they played around that with ease. All it takes is 1 eyeball and 2 braincells to realize the killer could have trapped around the area. After that its just quick thinking about where the killer COULD have trapped the area, and avoid those area's. It's doesnt require any perks to have counterplay against a Trapper. Trapper is the most vanilla counterable killer out there. Your argument simply doesnt hold up if all that is required, is game knowledge.
In fact, Trapper is one of the few killers I am confident against facing while fully perkless and itemless.
Basically your argument is "some players camp hardcore" in defense of buffing a killer who desperately needs a buff against the strongest perk(s) against him. People can hardcore camp with every killer without you being able to do anything about it. Billy's can camp and instadown you before you can unhook, Bubba's can camp and instadown everyone who is close for an unhook, Huntresses can hit 2 hatchets before you're able to unhook, Clowns can hit you right after throwing a bottle, then recharge fast enough to down you while the unhooked person is hindered, Pig can easily hold STBFL stacks and just hit you twice before you can unhook, Spirit can hit you twice and then phase after the unhooked person, Nurse can hit you twice and teleport after the unhooked person, Wraith can uncloak fast enough to still prevent an unhook and grab you off the hook, Oni can wait with his power untill someone gets close, Myers can 99 his stalk, Ghostface can 99 everyone's stalk, Hag has traps everywhere so you cant really escape unless all traps have been disarmed, Pyramid Head can hit you and then use his m2 to down the unhooker and the unhooked, Deathslinger can hit you twice and then shoot the unhooked person, Doctor can shock you to interrupt you infinitely, without you being able to save the hooked survivor, Freddy literally counters the only safe unhook perk in the game, making camping very easy to do, Plague can puke on the hooked survivor and perma injure them in the first place, then puke on you while bodyblocking to make you injured too before you can unhook, Twins can leave either of the models behind to essentially facecamp and wipe everyone who is injured with Victor. The only 2 killers that are hard to camp with, are Legion and Blight. Taking away the power of Kindred doesnt impact the survivor experience as much as you believe, but it definitely allows people who are forced to camp with Trapper to even out the game to not camp and just place a few traps nearby, because remember, Trapper has to physically gather his traps in the first place. By the time Trapper placed 3 traps, you could have easily unhooked the survivor 4 times.
Seriously, either you're a survivor only player or you're a beginner facing beginner killers, because camping isnt that big of an issue. Especially not if BT can be used.
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@Aquamarine said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1880869#Comment_1880869
Of course there are other reasons than just making the game harder for the killer. I usually burn a map offering if there's a map I haven't been in for ages. It's nice to have some variation instead of going to Autohaven or farm 3 times a row. Also, many achievents require certain maps.
Achievements are secondary, having a balanced game is primary.
Also, I agree that it is nice to have some variation, but practically no killers would use coldwind farm and most killers wont use autohaven as an offering. I am not arguing that survivor offerings do not have a place, my argument is that 1 survivor offering shouldnt have the ability to cancel out a killer offering. Let alone removing the map offering from the killer straight after.