Trapper buffs
I was discussing with a friend basically what would be a good mechanic for Trapper without making him technically stronger, altho we both agreed that base carry capacity should be 2 traps(like 99% of the community does). However, we did discuss OoO and even though its an incredibly strong perk, most adjustments around OoO were purely based around Trapper. So here is our secondary suggestion:
Trapper should be immune to aura readings as long as he holds his traps(assuming default trapper can hold 2 traps), while still having a TR. This means the only time a Trapper can be seen is after he placed down his final trap. This essentially would fix pretty much most of the issues that OoO has against Trapper specifically and makes the perk itself easier to balance as a whole.
Comments
This would be a welcome change, in my opinion reworking Object into a balanced perk would be the better choice, though.
The problem with Object is more that it cant really be reworked with Trapper in mind tho, and Trapper has more issues with other Aura perks too.
Idk, I don´t think alert or Dark Sense really hurt him tbh. And I think it could be reworked to not completely destroy his power, actually, there have been many suggestions as to how this could be achieved.
Unfortunately, they do not care about the way Object affects gameplay, especially not Trapper, so it will propably take years before it gets changed, if ever.
I can picture that being OP in some cases and I'm a trapper main. I'm all for buffing my boy but within reason. He would be immune to kindred too. Could we just make him immune to OoO?
Well, considering giving trapper 2 base traps already makes many addons quite OP, he already needs an addon rework once they implement that. However, being immune to OoO only is a bit hard to do, especially if its complete immunity. This discussion was with the addon rework in mind too, and making him immune to aura's while carrying traps actually allows for some very interesting addons that normally would be considered far too weak with OoO in mind.
And as for immunity to kindred, only when he still has traps. There are many killers who can be permanently immune to it, and Spirit can essentially use kindred in her favor. Let alone that perks that grant undetectability exist too. So I dont see that as being too big of a problem.
Being able to carry more than 1 trap without bags would help him. The main issues I feel trapper suffers from are
Fantastic idea. Don't know that they'll ever do it but I wish they would
No non-stealth killer should be immune to aura reading, that's a big, big, unnecessary advantage to give them over solo que. It would be better to remove OoO than to make Kindred and Alert worse (also, anything allowing the survivors to see a camping killer/killer setting up traps around a hook is a good thing).
Problem is, the main issue with OoO is giving vital information to teammates for free. Especially if you have Aftercare or Empathy too. Other than that, OoO isnt really that impactful. However, with Trapper, not only do you give information to teammates in a chase, you actively destroy the main ability of the killer. To rework OoO with that in mind, it would utterly destroy the perk to uselessness.
Considering Trapper is unique in having more downsides, the smart way would be to address Trapper first.
Besides, Dark Sense and Alert also dont really apply to some other killers. If they truly become weak, they can always be made to bypass the undetectable status.
Except that Trapper isnt really the average M1 killer, now is he? His main gameplay revolves around securing a territory. Aura reading directly counters territorial killers in the same sense that it would counter stealth killers. Basically, territorial killers and stealth killers share the same weaknesses in aura reading.
And besides, most solo que survivors NEVER use aura reading perks, so they already play against trapper without ever seeing his aura. So that's not exactly the best "advantage" anyhow. And no, that is not the same reasoning against using aura reading against other killers, because other killers dont rely on setting a perimeter.
Your second point is so objectively false I don't even want to touch it, so all I will say is where do you think all those Kindreds are coming from? SWF?
And as to your first point, that's not a buff Trapper needs. It's just a big FU to solo que that does nothing against sweaty teams. And if a Trapper is within the range of Kindred while setting up multiple traps, they aren't really the kind of Trapper I care about having a bad time, because that's not smart gameplay, that's someone giving themselves an excuse to camp a hook while also making it ridiculously dangerous to unhook a teammate, which in itself is miserable game design and the biggest issue with "territorial" killers. Which, by the way, aren't countered by Kindred or Alert. Only OoO.
Also, by your logic Hag should have the same effect, only permanent.
Well, I agree with the scattering, but not most of the others.
While yes, a trap gets disabled when spotted, odds are that the survivor spotting it would disarm it before it catches anyone anyway. The few times it doesnt is relatively negligable.
Disarming traps does have a downside, in that it takes time. Especially with the coming changes to trapper where 6 attempts guarantees an escape, its only going to consume time from survivors. The only issue with that is that the scattering makes you invest more time per trap than it takes survivors to disarm. So once the scattering issue is lessened to a point to being worth less time averagely than it takes to disarm them, then its not really an issue anymore.
And while that is true, a Trapper that had enough time to setup can practically stall the game forever untill he wins. The biggest problem is that the game doesnt reward killers based on their ability, but more on general M1 killers. Trapper's strength lies lategame, so punishing Trapper for losing gens is like punishing Pig for putting on a facemask.
As for genspeeds in general, base gen regression needs to be slightly faster. At least 1.5x while making Ruin less powerful accordingly to not regress a 99% gen within 12 seconds. That would already fix most issues on killers like trapper too.
How is it false? Most solo survivors do not use killer aura reading perks. That's simply a fact. Besides, once again, stealth killers are also immune to aura readings and they tend to be more effective than Trapper is. And yes, SWF's use Kindred too, because a lot of hooks have limited vision. You only need 1 kindred in an SWF to work. And yes, I check if people are grouped up before. You'd be surprised how many SWF's use kindred, and how little solo surv's do.
It kinda is a buff he needs tho, and there are plenty of situations where placing traps nearby the hook is not only smart, but actually the best option. And no, it's not giving an excuse to camp, as once again: stealth killers can already do this too, some even worse than others.
And no, because Hag actually isnt really a territorial killer. She can easily leave the perimeter and return at the push of a button once someone enters, with the only real counter being flashlights. Which are not guaranteed in the game and they are shown in the lobby in the first place. Trapper needs to be there to make his traps work, that makes him territorial, and not hag, as funnily enough, hag is like a spider and spiders arent really territorial by definition. Territorial animals need to be there for prey inside the territory to be in danger. Spiders dont need to be there for prey to get captured. So no, by my logic, Hag doesnt need the same effect.
Please provide this proof you so clearly have. When I turn off crossplay and check friends lists, the significant majority of players with perks like Kindred, Bond and Alert have no-one else on their friends. Sinc eyiu are making a claim that goes not only agaisnt my experience but against the experiences of everyone I have seen talk about this, you must have some damning evidence.
And as for the rest, no killer needs a camping buff. That's just stupid. Hag is a very territorial killer, claiming otherwise is showing a lack of understanding about her power. She needs to be close to her web at all times or she cannot teleport to her traps. And your logic was a string about how it's justifiable for someone to be territorial, of which Hag is perhaps the greatest example, because to be perfectly honest the whole concept of a "territorial" killer is just a killer that camps an area real well.
This is a quote from a post from someone else who kept track of all perks used by survivors, solo survivors included:
"Survivor perk stats:
81,81 % of the games had Self Care
115 SC --> 49,78 % of survivors had SC
76,62 % of the games had Decisive Strike
96 DS --> 41,56 % of survivors had DS
59,74 % of the games had Dead Hard
59 DH --> 25,54 % of survivors had DH
58,44 % of the games had Borrowed Time
73 BT --> 31,6 % of survivors had BT
57,14 % of the games had Adrenaline
64 Adr --> 27,71 % of survivors had Adrenaline
54,54 % of the games had Iron Will
54 IW --> 23,38 % of survivors had IW
44,16 % of the games had Sprint Burst
43 SB --> 18,6 % of survivors had SB
28,57 % of the games had Unbreakable
26 UB --> 11,26 % of survivors had UB"
Kindred doesnt even show up in 25% of the games.
"When I turn off crossplay and check friends lists"
So basically: solo survivors who only play against pc gamers use kindred.
That is an extremely biased statistic as the majority of solo survivors do use crossplay.
"the significant majority of players with perks like Kindred, Bond and Alert have no-one else on their friends."
Again a biased statistic, obviously people who use those 3 perks together are practically solo survivors, but that doesnt mean solo survivors use that only. You're basically saying all animals are dogs because everytime you check what a dog is, it's an animal. It doesnt work like that. You have to include all solo survivors to claim the majority of solo survivors use those perks. You cant use it the other way around.
"Sinc eyiu are making a claim that goes not only agaisnt my experience"
No, my claim goes against your data, which I have already shown to be biased.
"but against the experiences of everyone I have seen talk about this"
You're literally the first person I see talking about kindred being too common. And I have been on here for quite some time.
"no killer needs a camping buff"
Not a camping buff if all stealth killers can already do it, let alone that some stealth killers have access to an instadown. Besides, his terror radius would still be there, and last time I checked, the only way to get rid of your terror radius is the same way you get rid of aura's anyway. Both Dark Devotion and Insidious remove your aura too. The only "buff" is that trapper can lay down traps without being spotted, but its already easy to deal with Trappers traps if you expect them to be there. Because unlike Hag, you can actually run or even walk around without triggering one.
"Hag is a very territorial killer, claiming otherwise is showing a lack of understanding about her power."
Hag is like a spider, spiders are not territorial. Spiders set up a web for their victims to enter, and once they enter, they cant escape. Hag HAS to leave her web for it to be effective. She just needs to be close enough to teleport back. That's the opposite of being territorial. Being territorial means you wont leave an area unless its absolutely necessary. You claiming Hag and Trapper being the same type of killer just because they share traps is the lack of understanding powers. They have very different playstyles. Hag is a spider, trapper is territorial.
"She needs to be close to her web at all times or she cannot teleport to her traps."
Not that close, 32 meters is quite some distance for a 110% killer. And that is her vanilla range. Her other ranges(single addons, im not even including their stacked versions), 40, 48, 56 and infinite are each powerful enough to make her essentially run halfway across the map from the borders of the map, meaning that if the hook is slightly towards the center of the map, she can easily walk around 75% of the map and still teleport back to her trap. 75% of the map isnt territorial. That's not even including the fact she has 5 seconds to teleport to her trap(which means she has an additional 22 meters of range if she walks straight towards the trap). So meaning that once a trap triggers and you're 54 meters away, no addons, no perks, you can still go back. That's not territorial. She actually has to leave her territory for survivors to be caught in her web.
Meanwhile, Trapper needs to actually lead survivors towards his pre-set territory to capture them, and once he captures one, he needs to stay close enough to keep scaring survivors into his traps. THAT is territorial. A trapper, at most, can be 40 meters away from his territory, otherwise he is just an m1 killer.
"because to be perfectly honest the whole concept of a "territorial" killer is just a killer that camps an area real well."
Yes, and ideally, hag doesnt camp. She places traps, and then leaves the area. She literally doesnt need to camp an area. It's just a well protected area. That's not territorial. She isnt protecting it by camping it. Sure, the game allows people to use Hag to camp very easily, but any decent Hag wont even camp.
Hey, thanks for the wall of text that stillsbowes a clear misunderstanding of the core concept: TRAPPER CAN CAMP LIKE A BEAST AND YOU WANT TO MAKE HIM BETTER AT IT.
Also, I recognise those stats, they were from a very different meta. Perhaps gather your own. Back then I also saw way less info perks. No longer the case. And yes, stealth killers are a different problem that needs to be addressed, especially Wraith.
And you still don't know the first thing about camping to begin with, you literally explained how Hag is a territorial killer in your explanation of how she's not a territorial killer. Now I wonder: is territorial, in your mouth, just another word for "facecamping"?
Just stop and think about the situation you are trying to create. A killer that can lay down traps wherever he pleases directly around a hook and only damages solo survivors thanks to callouts. What a fun person you are.
I think this would be used to turn him into a camping machine; and would also be up way too often.
I am all for trapper buffs; and he has a huge problem with aura reading but this would be a bit overkill for that one problem.
Most aura reading perks are fine tbh, OoO is the exception because it just turns him into machete man. I don't want to block out every aura perk; I just want OoO to not render my power useless- it takes all the fun from playing trapper away.
Maps should not be able to reveal his traps; and luck offerings should not affect them. It's already remarkably forgiving they don't down you if you are injured or even apply mangled or hindered or anything considering it's a Bear Trap.
Trapper can camp like a beast because players have to build that way to counteract his weakness. Spirit exists in the game without giving any information while she is phasing, let alone not giving any information that she is phasing. Trapper's weakness literally destroys his playstyle. You'll always have campers in the game, making him "better" at it wont increase the amount of campers, in fact, it would reduce the amount of campers since they can do something else besides being forced to camp.
" Perhaps gather your own."
I did, I have faced 100+ confirmed solo survivors(the vast majority of them being rank 1, hours ranging from 80-5000) in the past 2 weeks, and I dont even remember seeing more than 10 kindreds. I have not seen Alert in weeks. Bond is the most common, but Bond doesnt affect killer aura.
"And yes, stealth killers are a different problem that needs to be addressed, especially Wraith."
They are not a problem to the game. They have a different playstyle. The only issue with Wraith is boneclapper/coxclombed clapper in combination with all seeing blood. Other than that, he needs a buff.
"Now I wonder: is territorial, in your mouth, just another word for "facecamping"?"
No, territorial means defending an area by actively being in that area. Your meaning of territorial is simply "being able to defend an area", which is wrong. You can defend an area with any kind of killer by constantly returning to it. That doesnt make that killer territorial. With your definition, any killer would be a territorial killer as all killers need to defend gens. Hag is again, a spider. And by definition, spiders are not territorial predators.
"A killer that can lay down traps wherever he pleases directly around a hook and only damages solo survivors thanks to callouts."
Doesnt matter, at least 90% of solo survivors I have seen, didnt see me place down traps and they played around that with ease. All it takes is 1 eyeball and 2 braincells to realize the killer could have trapped around the area. After that its just quick thinking about where the killer COULD have trapped the area, and avoid those area's. It's doesnt require any perks to have counterplay against a Trapper. Trapper is the most vanilla counterable killer out there. Your argument simply doesnt hold up if all that is required, is game knowledge.
In fact, Trapper is one of the few killers I am confident against facing while fully perkless and itemless.
Basically your argument is "some players camp hardcore" in defense of buffing a killer who desperately needs a buff against the strongest perk(s) against him. People can hardcore camp with every killer without you being able to do anything about it. Billy's can camp and instadown you before you can unhook, Bubba's can camp and instadown everyone who is close for an unhook, Huntresses can hit 2 hatchets before you're able to unhook, Clowns can hit you right after throwing a bottle, then recharge fast enough to down you while the unhooked person is hindered, Pig can easily hold STBFL stacks and just hit you twice before you can unhook, Spirit can hit you twice and then phase after the unhooked person, Nurse can hit you twice and teleport after the unhooked person, Wraith can uncloak fast enough to still prevent an unhook and grab you off the hook, Oni can wait with his power untill someone gets close, Myers can 99 his stalk, Ghostface can 99 everyone's stalk, Hag has traps everywhere so you cant really escape unless all traps have been disarmed, Pyramid Head can hit you and then use his m2 to down the unhooker and the unhooked, Deathslinger can hit you twice and then shoot the unhooked person, Doctor can shock you to interrupt you infinitely, without you being able to save the hooked survivor, Freddy literally counters the only safe unhook perk in the game, making camping very easy to do, Plague can puke on the hooked survivor and perma injure them in the first place, then puke on you while bodyblocking to make you injured too before you can unhook, Twins can leave either of the models behind to essentially facecamp and wipe everyone who is injured with Victor. The only 2 killers that are hard to camp with, are Legion and Blight. Taking away the power of Kindred doesnt impact the survivor experience as much as you believe, but it definitely allows people who are forced to camp with Trapper to even out the game to not camp and just place a few traps nearby, because remember, Trapper has to physically gather his traps in the first place. By the time Trapper placed 3 traps, you could have easily unhooked the survivor 4 times.
Seriously, either you're a survivor only player or you're a beginner facing beginner killers, because camping isnt that big of an issue. Especially not if BT can be used.
I dont think it's that much of overkill tho, there are already plenty of moments where trapper places down traps without survivors ever seeing it, let alone that there are plenty of red rank games where Trappers face survivors with 0 killer aura reading perks and still win simply by assuming where they would put traps if they were playing Trapper and avoid 90% of traps in the first place.
Besides, considering Trapper needs to hold a trap in the first place and considering this "passive" would allow Trappers to dispatch of their traps more easily, its very easy to place down all the traps. And if that ends up being too powerful, they can always change some aura reading perks to override the undetectable status. Because those specific aura reading perks wouldnt hurt stealth killers too much anyway.
"and luck offerings should not affect them."
Well, they are essentially chance based. Having luck offerings/perks affecting them does make sense, especially considering the PTB is already changing the chances.
"It's already remarkably forgiving they don't down you if you are injured or even apply mangled or hindered or anything considering it's a Bear Trap."
Well, I mean, I can put my leg in the same beartrap twice too without incapacitating me, and adding hinderance as vanilla mechanic does make it a bit too powerful considering it means stepping in any trap essentially means you're down. And if you can get hit by a machete in the back without fainting, its kinda obvious that its more about game balance. Besides, if a survivor gets captured in 2 traps without being captured, you're ignoring that survivor on purpose to begin with. And ignoring survivors shouldnt benefit you. So balancing wise, it makes sense.
At best, you can have survivors have temporary hinderance if they hit 2 traps in relatively quick succession. Otherwise it can easily turn Trapper from a strategic killer into a free 4k monster. And we already have Spirit to deal with.
Good news. The change to Trapper's traps on ptb also removes luck from affecting the escape chance.
I asked on the ptb feedback forum and a dev confirmed this is the case.
About time, that's good to know. Thank you I never saw that.
I don't want to have to type like three paragraphs to bring it full circle- but basically I just flat out disagree with a lot of what you just said and feel some of it is just not correct.
You're welcome to your own opinions, but I remain firm on what I said with my own opinion. Nothing you have said has changed that, as It's an observable truth how strong that would be.
More mechanics is needed. A secondary power where the trapper can re arm a trap by similar to Freddy holding the secondary power button this will of course make noise to aware survivors its rearming with an add on that makes no noise when a trap is being rearmed. This can be done within 32 meters with a cooldown. Trapper gains traps throughout the match with a maximum capacity of 12 traps total that can be generated. No traversing the four corners of the map for traps and the ability to rearm trap in a chase.