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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1880869#Comment_1880869
"I mean, the same logic applies to hook distance offerings. You need 3,5(so, essentially 3) survivor hook offerings to cancel out 1 killer hook offering, and hook offerings arent even that much of an impact on the game."
Your logic is really flawed here. The reason why Hook Offerings are weaker on the Survivor Side is not that the Killer can counter them, it is because 4 players can take them. Imagine they would be as strong as the Killer Version, 4 Survivors bringing a Purple Hook Offering would mean that the Killer does not really have Hooks on the Map. And Hooks are a basic mechanic of the game, a Killer needs to hook Survivors to actually play the game.
But Map Offerings dont deny anything what the Killer can do, even if it is a Map the Killer does not like.
IMO it is also fine to have Survivor-sided and Killer-sided Maps, even tho, those we currently have need to be less one-sided.
Like I said, the only difference should be that the Map Offering which did not provide the Map should be kept. Otherwise Map Offerings are totally fine.
"Your logic is really flawed here. The reason why Hook Offerings are weaker on the Survivor Side is not that the Killer can counter them, it is because 4 players can take them."
Yes, and 4 players can have a map offering, so the logic still applies. 4 survivor offerings are better than 1 killer offering, but 3 are roughly equal. It's not like 3 survivors cannot use the same map offering once someone else does. 4 survivors can use the same map offering, so 4 offerings should be required to guarantee a specific map. Just as 4 hook offerings are required to "beat" 1 killer hook offering.
"But Map Offerings dont deny anything what the Killer can do, even if it is a Map the Killer does not like."
T1 myers can be permalooped if he can be seen. AL Pig loses a lot of potential on open maps to a point where she might aswell run no addons. Using Ghostface in general on a very open map basically destroys him. But the opposite applies too, a Billy or Huntress on a closed map will heavily underperform. Assuming both survivors and killer are of equal skill, meaning the game would roughly be a tie, having a map offering that goes against you can literally lead into a 4-man escape without them needing to even try.
"IMO it is also fine to have Survivor-sided and Killer-sided Maps, even tho, those we currently have need to be less one-sided."
I dont disagree there, all I am saying is that survivors should be forced to use a minimal of 2 map offerings(perferably 3) to counter 1 killer map offering. Especially not considering that survivors could stack a large, survivor sided map(coldwind farm for example) with 3 hook offerings. You cannot argue that that is unfair. A killer would require either 2 offerings to be able to counter both, or survivors would need to require more offerings to counter 1 killer map offering.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
This would make Map Offerings basically useless for Solos. It is fine if the Map Offerings are considered equally and it is a 50/50 if the Survivor Offering is taken or not.
The only change that can be done is that the Offering that is not used (aka when the Map does not show up) is not gone and can be used for another game.
Doesnt matter, there is not a single reason as a solo survivor to use a map offering. Survivor builds dont really depend on any maps. The only reason for solo survivors to use a map offering is to get a bigger map so the killer has to move a bigger distance towards them. That is a massive disadvantage for killers while being a massive advantage for survivors.
Especially if the killer used a build that requires a lot of walls, for example, then the game is literally unplayable for that killer.
I mean, the same logic applies to hook distance offerings. You need 3,5(so, essentially 3) survivor hook offerings to cancel out 1 killer hook offering, and hook offerings arent even that much of an impact on the game.
You cant balance offerings based on solo survivors if they have the same effect on SWF. Killer offerings should at least require 2 survivor offerings to be cancelled out. It's an assymetrical game, not a single survivor should be able to fully counter a killer.
A key example is how you need 4 identical map offerings to cancel out Sacrificial Ward. Which is also a map offering. So there is no excuse in saying survivor map offerings should equal a killer offering.
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Especially considering you lose your map offering as a killer, meaning if you have a niche build that plays around specific maps, you cant play that build at all untill you refresh your bloodweb multiple times just to get that offering again.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862948#Comment_1862948
Please provide this proof you so clearly have. When I turn off crossplay and check friends lists, the significant majority of players with perks like Kindred, Bond and Alert have no-one else on their friends. Sinc eyiu are making a claim that goes not only agaisnt my experience but against the experiences of everyone I have seen talk about this, you must have some damning evidence.
And as for the rest, no killer needs a camping buff. That's just stupid. Hag is a very territorial killer, claiming otherwise is showing a lack of understanding about her power. She needs to be close to her web at all times or she cannot teleport to her traps. And your logic was a string about how it's justifiable for someone to be territorial, of which Hag is perhaps the greatest example, because to be perfectly honest the whole concept of a "territorial" killer is just a killer that camps an area real well.
This is a quote from a post from someone else who kept track of all perks used by survivors, solo survivors included:
"Survivor perk stats:
81,81 % of the games had Self Care
115 SC --> 49,78 % of survivors had SC
76,62 % of the games had Decisive Strike
96 DS --> 41,56 % of survivors had DS
59,74 % of the games had Dead Hard
59 DH --> 25,54 % of survivors had DH
58,44 % of the games had Borrowed Time
73 BT --> 31,6 % of survivors had BT
57,14 % of the games had Adrenaline
64 Adr --> 27,71 % of survivors had Adrenaline
54,54 % of the games had Iron Will
54 IW --> 23,38 % of survivors had IW
44,16 % of the games had Sprint Burst
43 SB --> 18,6 % of survivors had SB
28,57 % of the games had Unbreakable
26 UB --> 11,26 % of survivors had UB"
Kindred doesnt even show up in 25% of the games.
"When I turn off crossplay and check friends lists"
So basically: solo survivors who only play against pc gamers use kindred.
That is an extremely biased statistic as the majority of solo survivors do use crossplay.
"the significant majority of players with perks like Kindred, Bond and Alert have no-one else on their friends."
Again a biased statistic, obviously people who use those 3 perks together are practically solo survivors, but that doesnt mean solo survivors use that only. You're basically saying all animals are dogs because everytime you check what a dog is, it's an animal. It doesnt work like that. You have to include all solo survivors to claim the majority of solo survivors use those perks. You cant use it the other way around.
"Sinc eyiu are making a claim that goes not only agaisnt my experience"
No, my claim goes against your data, which I have already shown to be biased.
"but against the experiences of everyone I have seen talk about this"
You're literally the first person I see talking about kindred being too common. And I have been on here for quite some time.
"no killer needs a camping buff"
Not a camping buff if all stealth killers can already do it, let alone that some stealth killers have access to an instadown. Besides, his terror radius would still be there, and last time I checked, the only way to get rid of your terror radius is the same way you get rid of aura's anyway. Both Dark Devotion and Insidious remove your aura too. The only "buff" is that trapper can lay down traps without being spotted, but its already easy to deal with Trappers traps if you expect them to be there. Because unlike Hag, you can actually run or even walk around without triggering one.
"Hag is a very territorial killer, claiming otherwise is showing a lack of understanding about her power."
Hag is like a spider, spiders are not territorial. Spiders set up a web for their victims to enter, and once they enter, they cant escape. Hag HAS to leave her web for it to be effective. She just needs to be close enough to teleport back. That's the opposite of being territorial. Being territorial means you wont leave an area unless its absolutely necessary. You claiming Hag and Trapper being the same type of killer just because they share traps is the lack of understanding powers. They have very different playstyles. Hag is a spider, trapper is territorial.
"She needs to be close to her web at all times or she cannot teleport to her traps."
Not that close, 32 meters is quite some distance for a 110% killer. And that is her vanilla range. Her other ranges(single addons, im not even including their stacked versions), 40, 48, 56 and infinite are each powerful enough to make her essentially run halfway across the map from the borders of the map, meaning that if the hook is slightly towards the center of the map, she can easily walk around 75% of the map and still teleport back to her trap. 75% of the map isnt territorial. That's not even including the fact she has 5 seconds to teleport to her trap(which means she has an additional 22 meters of range if she walks straight towards the trap). So meaning that once a trap triggers and you're 54 meters away, no addons, no perks, you can still go back. That's not territorial. She actually has to leave her territory for survivors to be caught in her web.
Meanwhile, Trapper needs to actually lead survivors towards his pre-set territory to capture them, and once he captures one, he needs to stay close enough to keep scaring survivors into his traps. THAT is territorial. A trapper, at most, can be 40 meters away from his territory, otherwise he is just an m1 killer.
"because to be perfectly honest the whole concept of a "territorial" killer is just a killer that camps an area real well."
Yes, and ideally, hag doesnt camp. She places traps, and then leaves the area. She literally doesnt need to camp an area. It's just a well protected area. That's not territorial. She isnt protecting it by camping it. Sure, the game allows people to use Hag to camp very easily, but any decent Hag wont even camp.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862879#Comment_1862879
Your second point is so objectively false I don't even want to touch it, so all I will say is where do you think all those Kindreds are coming from? SWF?
And as to your first point, that's not a buff Trapper needs. It's just a big FU to solo que that does nothing against sweaty teams. And if a Trapper is within the range of Kindred while setting up multiple traps, they aren't really the kind of Trapper I care about having a bad time, because that's not smart gameplay, that's someone giving themselves an excuse to camp a hook while also making it ridiculously dangerous to unhook a teammate, which in itself is miserable game design and the biggest issue with "territorial" killers. Which, by the way, aren't countered by Kindred or Alert. Only OoO.
Also, by your logic Hag should have the same effect, only permanent.
How is it false? Most solo survivors do not use killer aura reading perks. That's simply a fact. Besides, once again, stealth killers are also immune to aura readings and they tend to be more effective than Trapper is. And yes, SWF's use Kindred too, because a lot of hooks have limited vision. You only need 1 kindred in an SWF to work. And yes, I check if people are grouped up before. You'd be surprised how many SWF's use kindred, and how little solo surv's do.
It kinda is a buff he needs tho, and there are plenty of situations where placing traps nearby the hook is not only smart, but actually the best option. And no, it's not giving an excuse to camp, as once again: stealth killers can already do this too, some even worse than others.
And no, because Hag actually isnt really a territorial killer. She can easily leave the perimeter and return at the push of a button once someone enters, with the only real counter being flashlights. Which are not guaranteed in the game and they are shown in the lobby in the first place. Trapper needs to be there to make his traps work, that makes him territorial, and not hag, as funnily enough, hag is like a spider and spiders arent really territorial by definition. Territorial animals need to be there for prey inside the territory to be in danger. Spiders dont need to be there for prey to get captured. So no, by my logic, Hag doesnt need the same effect.
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@EvilJoshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862827#Comment_1862827
Being able to carry more than 1 trap without bags would help him. The main issues I feel trapper suffers from are
- His traps all scattered all around the map and he has to pick them up to use them.
- If your playing a swf with headsets. If one person see's a trap they all know where it is.
- Without the bloody coil, which is ultra rare, there is zero risk to disarming his traps. Making him an M1 killer.
- He requires time to setup. Making gen slow down perks a must pick. It would be nice if the devs gave us some more info on the early game start up they said they were working on.
Well, I agree with the scattering, but not most of the others.
While yes, a trap gets disabled when spotted, odds are that the survivor spotting it would disarm it before it catches anyone anyway. The few times it doesnt is relatively negligable.
Disarming traps does have a downside, in that it takes time. Especially with the coming changes to trapper where 6 attempts guarantees an escape, its only going to consume time from survivors. The only issue with that is that the scattering makes you invest more time per trap than it takes survivors to disarm. So once the scattering issue is lessened to a point to being worth less time averagely than it takes to disarm them, then its not really an issue anymore.
And while that is true, a Trapper that had enough time to setup can practically stall the game forever untill he wins. The biggest problem is that the game doesnt reward killers based on their ability, but more on general M1 killers. Trapper's strength lies lategame, so punishing Trapper for losing gens is like punishing Pig for putting on a facemask.
As for genspeeds in general, base gen regression needs to be slightly faster. At least 1.5x while making Ruin less powerful accordingly to not regress a 99% gen within 12 seconds. That would already fix most issues on killers like trapper too.
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@MadLordJack said:
No non-stealth killer should be immune to aura reading, that's a big, big, unnecessary advantage to give them over solo que. It would be better to remove OoO than to make Kindred and Alert worse (also, anything allowing the survivors to see a camping killer/killer setting up traps around a hook is a good thing).
Except that Trapper isnt really the average M1 killer, now is he? His main gameplay revolves around securing a territory. Aura reading directly counters territorial killers in the same sense that it would counter stealth killers. Basically, territorial killers and stealth killers share the same weaknesses in aura reading.
And besides, most solo que survivors NEVER use aura reading perks, so they already play against trapper without ever seeing his aura. So that's not exactly the best "advantage" anyhow. And no, that is not the same reasoning against using aura reading against other killers, because other killers dont rely on setting a perimeter.
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@Slashstreetboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862765#Comment_1862765
Idk, I don´t think alert or Dark Sense really hurt him tbh. And I think it could be reworked to not completely destroy his power, actually, there have been many suggestions as to how this could be achieved.
Unfortunately, they do not care about the way Object affects gameplay, especially not Trapper, so it will propably take years before it gets changed, if ever.
Problem is, the main issue with OoO is giving vital information to teammates for free. Especially if you have Aftercare or Empathy too. Other than that, OoO isnt really that impactful. However, with Trapper, not only do you give information to teammates in a chase, you actively destroy the main ability of the killer. To rework OoO with that in mind, it would utterly destroy the perk to uselessness.
Considering Trapper is unique in having more downsides, the smart way would be to address Trapper first.
Besides, Dark Sense and Alert also dont really apply to some other killers. If they truly become weak, they can always be made to bypass the undetectable status.
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@EvilJoshy said:
I can picture that being OP in some cases and I'm a trapper main. I'm all for buffing my boy but within reason. He would be immune to kindred too. Could we just make him immune to OoO?
Well, considering giving trapper 2 base traps already makes many addons quite OP, he already needs an addon rework once they implement that. However, being immune to OoO only is a bit hard to do, especially if its complete immunity. This discussion was with the addon rework in mind too, and making him immune to aura's while carrying traps actually allows for some very interesting addons that normally would be considered far too weak with OoO in mind.
And as for immunity to kindred, only when he still has traps. There are many killers who can be permanently immune to it, and Spirit can essentially use kindred in her favor. Let alone that perks that grant undetectability exist too. So I dont see that as being too big of a problem.
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@Slashstreetboy said:
This would be a welcome change, in my opinion reworking Object into a balanced perk would be the better choice, though.
The problem with Object is more that it cant really be reworked with Trapper in mind tho, and Trapper has more issues with other Aura perks too.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824856#Comment_1824856
Exhaustion Add Ons should not exist anymore anyway. And I am pretty sure that they will be removed once the respective Killers get their Add On-Pass, so this would include Pig.
And anyway, those Add Ons mean that this Survivor cannot use any Exhaustion Perk or is most likely not healed, which simply invites to tunnel. Of course you should not chase those players with Traps, since they are not doing Gens anyway, this is correct. But especially bad Pig-Players do that, and those Add Ons just encourage them to do so.
I would agree normally, but having exhaustion perks allow a survivor to meander while they should be removing their trap because they can, can be very deadly to Pig.
Besides, Pig only has 4 traps and can only use them after having downed a survivor. The exhaustion addons that people definitely want removed are exhaustion addons on abilities that can be repeated multiple times. I dont see exhaustion being too much of an issue on Pig, especially considering that chasing someone with a trap on top of their head can turn a 3k game into a 1k game.
But I'll humor you with something that I think would be the best of both worlds: The addons only work when you're not in chase. Just as the timer gets paused, the status effects coming with the beartrap get fully removed. Meaning that if a Pig uses an exhaustion addon, she could instantly refresh someone's exhaustion bar by losing them in chase and restarting in a chase(which happens quite often right after having used an exhaustion perk), leading to essentially allowing survivors to infinitely sprint around the map if Pig chases them. Which I think is hilarious while also keeping the intended effect of blocking exhaustion perks from being used when left unattended. Sure, survivors could be running towards you just to use their exhaustion perk, but I'd argue that doing so would actually cost more time than it would potentially save.
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Current system is 10000% more accurate in displaying skill than the old one. The old one was essentially: for every 2k in a catagory, you would recieve something thats now similar to 1 emblem. The issue there: Killers would essentially always pip or double pip, resulting in a situation where there were more rank 1 killers than red rank survivors combined.
Then the killer system got addressed, which was still bad, because it gave you 4 points per survivor, 1 point for each hookstate(including sacrifice as a seperate stage) and 2 points for someone dying(still no clue why). You would get a pip by having 9 points, you can deduce pretty quickly that the main killer strategy included tunneling and camping.
The current system is still flawed, because it assumes that all survivors must be judged individually rather than as a team. The killer wants 1 survivor out ASAP(preferably when there are still 2 or more gens to be started), but the rules did state that depipping someone on purpose is bannable. This rule has only been applied on survivors that focus on depipping killers, yet it ignores rushed kills because it obviously could be necessary for killers to rush out an OoO user in an SWF premade. Not even speaking about the fact that killers are judged equally even though their powers are applied very differently. That's like judging an elephant by its inability to breathe underwater even though an elephant can still breathe through its trunk if it's close to the surface of water.
However, this system is by far superior to the old one, even with its current flaws.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Add On pass would totally be enough. More focus on Stealth and Dash, less focus on Traps.
Especially stuff like Tampered Timer should be removed, if you combine it with the purple Extra Box Add On or the Purple Add On which increases search time, it can be impossible for a Survivor to search all Boxes, if you interrupt him just a little bit. And this should not happen, Traps should be slowdown, but not a cheap RNG-Kill.
When it comes to Add Ons, stuff like increased Skill Check Odds or increased Penalties should be changed. They dont have any purpose since Unnerving or Lullaby dont affect Jigsaw Boxes since ages. Stuff like Hemorrhage should be basekit, while things like Mangled or Exhaustion should be removed/changed, since they only promote to tunnel the guy with the Trap.
Ideas for a Trap Add On would be one Add On to give 2 extra Traps. Or one which is Iridescent but makes the Key appear in the last Box, but increases the timer. This Add On can replace Amandas Letter as an Iridescent Add On, since that one is also Map-dependant and could easily be a purple Add On.
Eh, the exhaustion and mangled addons are fine as is tho. Mangled simply because some survivors are dumb enough to heal while their timer is ticking down and they should be able to be punished for that. Exhaustion is nice because it prevents them from using exhaustion perks while moving between jigsaw boxes. 99% of the time, its best not to tunnel anyway, because that survivor is going to be busy. Tunneling someone with a trap on is essentially wasting time. And I guess it could encourage people to tunnel, but tunnelers gonna find ways to make tunneling easier. Which is why most tunnelers play PH nowadays.
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As an ex-pig main, its tough to say. Having her power being virtually RNG is necessary because otherwise you can simply camp the box with the key in it(especially if 1 box has all 4 keys in them) and bodyblock it.
The things I feel like Pig should have access to is mainly addons regarding her crouch/dash. She only has 4 traps available, so her main ability is her crouch/dash, yet there are only 3 addons that even address her main ability. Meaning the current design heavily implies that the devs expect Pig to pop off at least 1 head OR that she uses her partyhats to stall the game(which can be made worse with ruin and undying, just for those who want to be really toxic with pig). It implies that her dash is fine as it is and her crouching speed is too.
Yet its obviously not, as many skilled pig players pretty much unanimously agree that her crouching addons are the best addons, because her base crouching is so #########.
So I guess, in a nutshell, my changes would be one of the following.
- buff her base crouching mechanics and dedicate all the addons to the jigsaw traps(which can have some more variety, like not being able to see jigsaw box aura's unless you're within a certain range of it)
- swap out some of the more useless addons(like the increased skill check addons, even using both addons only increases it with 3%. Normal skillchecks are 8% per second, going to 11% per second doesnt really do anything does it?) for crouching related addons instead.
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There is already plenty of healing perks and addons that make healing faster. The haste effect alone is strong against most killers and allows you to loop for nearly 2 full minutes, giving survivors essentially an instaheal on each other is too broken on that perk.
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@SasukeKun said:
i do not like that they changed mori's again, AGAIN. with all the survivor perks they should just make it so after they get unhooked once they can no longer be killed for the rest of the trial. Devs always just listen to complaining survivors who suck at the game.
@Peanits ruining the killer experience with every patch. Man i was excited about that patch notes list until i saw that addition. Next they gonna take Mori's out completely cuz survivors dont wanna die in dead by daylight.
I personally wanted different Mori's for the different killers
EDIT: Some seem to think i'm talking about a Free win, if anyone didn't know or doesnt play killer. Mori's only granted you less than 15k or somethin which sometimes made "entity displeased". They should have tweaked survivor's keys before they touch more pinks on killers side. Survivors have a whole arsenal
Alright, lets look at both situations and why Mori's are 100% worse for the game than keys ever will be:
A mori: depips survivors and have at least 2 survivors with less than 10k BP(note, BP on survivorside is already terrible, and killers get more BP's from a Mori than survivors do), cannot be countered, make the game infinitely easier after 1 hook which can be done essentially at the start of the game, still allow killers to black pip.
A key: Does not depip killers(infact, you can still get pips), at best it black pips a killer and the killer barely loses any BP by the end of it(you should still be able to get 20k+BP), it has many counters, including rushing to kill the survivor, it does make escaping easier but at the cost of either fellow teammates or you need to finish all 5 gens already(again, 1 key doesnt guarantee a 3 man escape, where 1 ivory or 1 ebony can guarantee a 3k), it allows survivors to still pip and the killer can close the hatch before everyone escapes, essentially ######### over all remaining survivors. Not including the fact that you as a killer can see the key being put into the match, where survivors dont see a mori untill its too late(which is why a lot of survivors have started to do the 5 second swap for a key, because it has less counterplay).
Considering everything the game has to offer, keys are quite balanced. They are a bit unbalanced in the sense that they open the hatch a bit too long, but keys are uncommon as ######### compared to mori's. Mori's literally ruin what the game is supposed to be about and deny anyone to do their objectives. Keys allow the opponent to actually counter and still succeed in his own objective. Keys need a slight alteration, mori's need deletion from the game(or buff survivors to be able to counter mori's in a vanilla way).
If you disagree with that statement, then go play F13, where people already expect to be instakilled every single match and where being instakilled doesnt affect your post-game too much. Because DBD isnt meant to be F13.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1780949#Comment_1780949
DS risks are laughable. You can use it once, and you become the obsession, which does nothing in most of the trials.
Either DS needs more restrictions or drawbacks, or the obsession state should be detrimental to survivors by default ( without perks)
The usage isnt the issue tho. Its a 1 time use perk and from that moment on you only have 3 perks. That alone is quite a drawback.
The issue is DS surviving easily into the endgame because the killer didnt eat the DS.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
You can't build in an anti tunnel power into EVERY survivor until 12 hooking becomes viable.
This would just make the game incredibly hard against SWF groups and people who split gens on big maps.
Maybe if the game was actually balanced along side this then that'd be ok.
Well, you can, but it needs to be first hook only. DS is not an anti-tunnel mechanic, its more meant to be an anti-removal mechanic.
As for the game being balanced, it currently isnt due to undying and ruin making literally every ######### build viable and hard carrying killers who dont know how to deal with loops. DS is relatively balanced, but does need a guaranteed use to deactivate the perk for killers who dont tunnel(like an automatic health state after 60 seconds, also prevents slugging). DS being essentially RNG for killers and it's potential to flip the EGC is the problem with DS, DS reaching the EGC should require a survivor to never tank a hookstage for their teammates to keep its power, which is a very risky play and can backfire.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
Hex: decoy
At the start of the trial an additional 1/2/3 fake hex totems spawn into the trial, up to a total of 8 totems, while these fake hex totems remain in the trial, all other hex totems appear as dull
Talk about an OP perk. Man, you might aswell just ask the devs to instantly kill survivors at the start of a match.
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@jotaro said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1771099#Comment_1771099
lol, keep telling that to yourself :D DS is fine and in a good spot right now. if you don't like the game's content and mechanics, stop playing and switch to fortnite or something
Oh sure, a single perk that can easily be saved untill the EGC that has the power to change a potential 3k into a 4 man escape is in a good spot? Keep convincing yourself it is. It needs a higher risk to have that much power in the game, especially if the killer hasnt been using extremely powerful vanilla tactics in the first place.
You can imagine this game to be like a 4v1 game of chess. Both sides have very strong pieces that can heavily impact a match, but there are very few pieces in the game that can totally turn the outcome of the game. Autodidact, for example, is an extremely weak piece at first, but once you have those 5 stacks? You can constantly reset the board to a state that is in your favor. DS has the power to flip a board if the killer wants to rush a kill too fast. Early game, its punishment is minimal, so if you have the time as a killer, you would want to get rid of DS ASAP. But you dont always have time, so DS tends to survive another hook. Such a powerful piece simply needs an equal downside, being slugged isnt exactly a downside. NOED can be prevented. Devour can be gone before even getting a single stack. Dead Hard can be baited. Sprintburst requires a lot of exhaustion management throughout the game. Iron Will requires you to walk or crouch away for it to work in a situation where walking or crouching could be the difference between life and death. All the strong perks have a hefty downside. DS? Not really.
If you do not understand that in even the slightest, then you have no clue how the game works.
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@jotaro said:
It's balanced. Stop tunneling.
Nah, it can be abused in really dirty ways if you respect a DS as a killer, while the punishment on actual tunneling is minimal. It's literally promoting killers to get rid of DS and are then forced to keep tunneling and rush a kill if they want to be able to get more kills. That isnt balance. Not a single perk in the game should be a powercreep like that. Even devour hope gives you 2 full hooks warning prior to the murder. Even infiniT3 tombstone myers has a massive tell of taking more than 2 full generators to even get to T3. All powercreeps have their warnings and you can counterplay those warnings. As a killer, there isnt much counterplay to DS other than eating it early. The counterplay is literally to tunnel to stop its power from increasing.
If you dont see how unbalanced that is, and how unfun that playstyle is for both sides. Then you have no clue on the potential power of DS. It's design is fairly balanced in terms of gameplay, but its rarely used in a proper method.
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@DevilSad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1759093#Comment_1759093
I'm sorry to say this, but you talk like someone who's never played killer in their life. You think the solution to bad meta perk combos is "just play into them, they'll be gone sooner". My solution is "let's rework them out of scummy play styles." Can you see you're the one who's actually biased here?
It's a one time use thing that is very weak early game but a danm nuke during the EGC. I mean, thats like saying "rework noed" even though noed is fine as it is. If you rushed gens without ever considering NOED, you deserve being instadowned. If the killer is good already, then everyone is already injured and NOED wont really have any added effect other than having a strong camp play, but that killer would be good enough to realize they can capitalize on the fact that you're currently injured and is probably trying to go for a slug play.
So yes, its better to get an early game tickle and guarantee at least 1 or 2 DS perks gone so you have 1-2 targets that you can use as pressure levarage. They know they dont have any protection anymore, they will ask their friends who still have DS to take over. At which point, you have a chase with 1 survivor without DS and another survivor around you trying to grab your attention. Thats 2 survivors less on gens.
I have played a shitton of killer and a shitton of survivor. Any perk being permanently disabled for the rest of the match is a perk less to worry about. You already have to play around a lot of potentially dangerous perks, having it disabled before it can deal damage is simply the better play.
And no, obviously my solution isnt "just play into them", because otherwise I wouldnt have made this ######### post suggesting to rework DS in a way that is actually fair in terms of minimizing damage for killers. Having a confirmed heal and obsession change is a fair way to remove DS from the game for the remainder of the match. Its a free heal in a crucial state for the individual survivor, but on the grand scale of the entire match is simply a tap on the wrist for the killer. Essentially, if you do not rush a kill as killer right now, you dont get punished during the EGC for not picking up survivors early in game. But the punishment for actual kill rushing is a mere 5 second stun, meaning you actually get rewarded for tunneling, like someone else recently above also mentioned. Having a heal early on, but a stronger stun effect for those who rush the kill on first hook is balanced as a perk. THAT is my suggestion to change ds. The reason why I started countering YOUR claim, it was because you were trying to nerf it around the way that DS is being abused. Your rework of DS is essentially "work around the abuse", still allowing for other abuse while making the perk more complex and much more prone to bugs and weird glitches, rather than to "revamp the perk in a way that it cannot be abused at all".
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@Wingmonster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1768509#Comment_1768509
Atleast I get the kill.
In the same time you could have gotten 2 or more. Getting kills isnt really hard unless you play against survivors who can completely read your mindgames. In which case, losing that game is fine. You were outmatched, it happens, deal with it.
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@oh_0k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1766033#Comment_1766033
So what if they can get to certain places like on top of a wall? It's only 5 uses the entire match lol
Oh, like getting stuck on rocks with no way to get out, some maybe being able to get you out if you use another token, meaning you lost 2 gens for getting stuck with a perk. Or damaging survivors through certain walls because there is a hole in it and the new lunge distance being able to make it(I've seen a person get damaged in a locker once without the killer having to check which locker).
So yeah, reaching places they shouldnt be able to reach. Piggy and Demogorgon are already able to get on top of certain walls, obviously that wasnt the issue, let alone that Nurse can get pretty much everywhere any other killer can go. Getting stuck on accident because of a perk OR using that perk to hit through walls is a bit broken and can turn a relatively decent perk into an uncounterable monster. Sometimes all you need is 1 single hit through a wall to turn the game into your favor, having 5 of them is an issue.
Im sure they will compensate the nerf with something else.
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@Wingmonster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1747097#Comment_1747097
No, so I don't have to deal with DS and so the survivors cant get to their teammate
Yes, throwing the game. 1 full first hook sacrifice takes 120 seconds, it takes 80 seconds for survivors to do 3 gens. You dedicated time to the chase, so odds are that 1 generator is done already, if not almost done. If the survivors play seriously, you likely lost 2 generators relatively quickly. 1-2 generators done when you have 120 seconds on camping a hook, that leaves 3 survivors to split up, do 1 generator each and be down another 3 generators in 80 seconds. That's 4-5 generators gone and you camped. If you have noed, you might get a second one, if survivors dont decide to do totems in the remaining 40 seconds they have while you camp the hook. Let alone that they can easily escape if they actually did pop 2 gens early.
So yeah, you're actively throwing your own game by camping.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761647#Comment_1761647
Overperformance is a balance issue. So you're saying Nurse is super weak and pig is too strong? That's not the case at all. Why does it matter if a weaker player can use it? That's not an issue. Ruin undying will do nothing if you chase 1 person since ruin does nothing if you dont get people off gens. They wont be looking for totems if ruin's not doing anything. Again, separate issue. No its not false, map design also includes loops not getting from point A to B, so also chases. I didn't say map size, I said design. Chases need help because the map design is bad. Good or bad killers can't do anything about a loop that's too safe, or a string of them because they got unlucky, thats the point of bloodlust, to help against the bad map design or getting unlucky.
You can't win using that strategy, you will waste so much time that the other survivors will just do the gens and leave and you will lose unless the survivors are potatoes. Bloodlust 3 doesn't matter that much, its 1 and 2 that come into play normally. The only killers getting tier 3 are bad ones who have probably already lost the match at that point. You want to remove tier 3 only I'm all for it since it doesn't really matter.
It doesn't matter how long you've been playing, your point still stands as incorrect. You still don't know what you're talking about as far as I can see. Time playing doesn't factor in. If people care about skill so much there's bigger issues to tackle like DS, hatch, keys, mori's, iri heads, loop design, pallet normalization, and other things that give free advantage. With the loop design still being less than ideal to put it lightly, there's no reason to take out the thing that was put in to help against it, especially when they're adding in god walls to the maps.
Accidentally pressed post, so its in 2 parts, excuse me for that, anyway:
Well, there are only 2 safe loops per map at most, and guess what? killers can do 3 things about it: breaking a door, baiting the pallet early or leaving that area. If they are gonna heal up, they're wasting time, if they drop a pallet, its no longer a safe loop. If there is a door, you break the safe loop instantly while minimizing the gained distance the survivor would get otherwise. If they arent injured and none of the above is possible within a short timeframe, just leave. If they all go there, fine, you've removed pressure and they will run to a dedicated spot, more chances of them making mistakes in that area and making the safe area unsafe with minimal of your time wasted.
Yes, but that is simply false. Structures are balanced. There are no infinites. Its pure mindgames. The problem with mapdesign for killers was the distance they had to walk from point A to point B. Which is why pretty much all the big maps have been shrunk or reworked(sometimes both). Chases do not need help. I played the entire weekend without any bloodlust and my prediction was right: only 3 killers need help with bloodlust. All my other chases were averagely the same time. As for a string of safe loops, no, they pretty much dont exist. worst case scenario, you get 2 windows of 2 relatively strong structures together, in which case, you get the ######### out before you lose too much time.
Well, not really, but survivors tend to want to play together because more survivors tends to be more fun to play around with as you have more leeway to screw around a little. Exploring certain area's a bit better, investigating the way the map is build and doing some pre-planning in case they are getting chased. If one of their friends is under constant pressure, they would want to try and help relief pressure for some time. Bloodlust allows you to fully ignore them. Assuming survivors will go for a team-win over a more fun match is a tournament mindset. And I've never seen bloodlust 2 being used in my usual games, ever. Not even while playing t1 myers. The only time I saw it happen was when I was chasing someone on purpose as long as possible to improve my ability to cut corners(which actually forced me to make massive mistakes and breaking a lot of pallets to reset as often as I could). 1 barely comes into play at all, and when it does, its at the end of a chase(especially with weaker killers). If it doesnt, you can still improve with the killer.
Again, my point still stands. I even checked to see how it was in practice. Only 3 killers rely on bloodlust. As for skill. DS, Hatch, keys, loops and pallet placements are fine. They dont give a free advantage, they give an oppertunity and it takes skill to turn an oppertunity into an advantage. Altho keys are currently more powerful than they should currently be in terms of time that a hatch is open, purple should allow 2 at most, pink should allow 3 at most. Both cases needing perfect timing to get out. Same for DS, it's potential advantage is a bit too powerful for the oppertunity it offers, the oppertunity doesnt need change, but the advantage needs limitation. Mori's are not an oppertunity, they are literally a free advantage, just like bloolust in fact. You dont even need to sacrifice a perk slot for mori's. The only relatively balanced mori is Cypress right now, and that one is actually underpowered(it should be able to mori during the EGC in general).
And yeah, loops are by design not in favor of the killer. But that doesnt mean a killer cannot turn loops into their favor. The god walls are actually a response by making some of the bigger maps smaller. Freddy's maps have been shrunk(its darker, so you might not notice it, but its much easier to go from one side to the other). Godwalls generate when the wall or fence is placed close to an outer wall. I agree it should have a breakable door/wall or 2 along the way, but even in that case, most killers have a way to deal damage over a gap. A trapper can set up a trap very early and chase the survivor into the trap, billy can just run, wraith can close the gap faster by using his power, nurse, well, is nurse, huntress can just throw hatchets, freddy can place traps(unless you're pallet freddy, but in that case you can get hits easier in other ways anyway and should just leave), demogorgon can use his shred to reduce distance, legion can use his ability to do so, especially if the survivor is fully healed, deathslinger just shoots, oni should have his power by then anyway, Blight can catch on, spirit doesnt matter, bubba is pretty much same as billy, hag just traps quickly, pyramid can do damage through walls, clown is essentially perfect for the wall even piggy can do a good mindgame and use her dash to reduce the initial distance as much as possible. That only leaves Plague, Doctor, Ghostface, and Myers that are unable to do anything about it. And even out of those 2, Ghostface and Myers(let alone free stalk time, you can just stalk and leave and use that stalk for a better oppertunity) have enough instadown time to keep the chase to a minimal. You're overhyping the need for bloodlust. There are some really strong places, agreed, but only less than a handful of killers are affected, by less than a handful of W simulator places. So what makes more sense? Removing bloodlust and giving those killers a way to deal with W simulators or keeping bloodlust? Do you think the blighted serum for killers this halloween was just a fun thought? Do you really not think that they used it to see if the mechanic could be used instead of bloodlust? Why else would the addon not have been useable after the event? If the addon was fully disabled, they could give that ability to killers during W simulators. It's what people have been using it for during the event, to decrease distance rather than shortening a loop and it actually requires skill to use it properly(although, it was a bit too strong obviously and killers need their own way, but I think it definitely proved the devs that bloodlust was no longer needed).
Bloodlust is simply bad for the game. It needs to make way for better solutions.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761647#Comment_1761647
Overperformance is a balance issue. So you're saying Nurse is super weak and pig is too strong? That's not the case at all. Why does it matter if a weaker player can use it? That's not an issue. Ruin undying will do nothing if you chase 1 person since ruin does nothing if you dont get people off gens. They wont be looking for totems if ruin's not doing anything. Again, separate issue. No its not false, map design also includes loops not getting from point A to B, so also chases. I didn't say map size, I said design. Chases need help because the map design is bad. Good or bad killers can't do anything about a loop that's too safe, or a string of them because they got unlucky, thats the point of bloodlust, to help against the bad map design or getting unlucky.
You can't win using that strategy, you will waste so much time that the other survivors will just do the gens and leave and you will lose unless the survivors are potatoes. Bloodlust 3 doesn't matter that much, its 1 and 2 that come into play normally. The only killers getting tier 3 are bad ones who have probably already lost the match at that point. You want to remove tier 3 only I'm all for it since it doesn't really matter.
It doesn't matter how long you've been playing, your point still stands as incorrect. You still don't know what you're talking about as far as I can see. Time playing doesn't factor in. If people care about skill so much there's bigger issues to tackle like DS, hatch, keys, mori's, iri heads, loop design, pallet normalization, and other things that give free advantage. With the loop design still being less than ideal to put it lightly, there's no reason to take out the thing that was put in to help against it, especially when they're adding in god walls to the maps.
Actually, the overperformance was meant to point out that they are using data that has nothing to do with killer balance. Pig obviously gets most kills in grey-green ranks, she is overperforming in low ranks. My language was a bit vague but I had to keep it short at the time.
As a matter of fact, using it isnt the problem, getting a massively strong infinite free boost for being bad without any negative consequences is. Bloodlust is allowing people who make mistakes to catch up massively. I know that that is important in the case of long hallways like midwich, but there are ways around that. Otherwise, you can just cut off the survivor anyway. If you dont cut off a survivor, you can still catch a survivor a lot quicker using just bloodlust. Even though you're making mistakes, you're being given a gift. THAT is the issue. I mean, imagine if it was the other way around. For everytime the survivor gets you to swing, they'd get a 1% movementspeed buff up to 3%. Meaning the survivor gets rewarded for baiting the killer into mistakes. Add in Hope, and you run 110%. Obviously you see the issue with that, and that reward is 5x smaller and given while survivors make risky plays. Bloodlust, however, gives you 5% for making mistakes, and the longer you make mistakes, the bigger the bonus gets. Ofcourse you dont want players to get discouraged, but man, you have no clue how much killers actually get all the tools to not having a bad match. You would need massive ######### who bully constantly to make your game feel terrible. All that a killer needs is 1 early dead survivor to make the game feel awful for 4 people at the same time. And fun fact? Killers get ALL the tools to get an early 1k if they really wanted it. I love playing killer, but its really hard to deny the fact that the whole killer kit as a whole gets babied by the devs. I tend to have less fun as a survivor than as a killer, especially in the current undying/ruin era.
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@oh_0k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1764034#Comment_1764034
Doesn't mean it's ok to nerf it
I think the problem with it, was that killers could reach things they shouldnt be able to reach and pretty much break the game. I mean, Billy has gotten nerfed in the past once because his angular momentum was slightly too big and launched him into space
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761561#Comment_1761561
Using the kill rate as a measure of balance is already very misguided as the devs, the community, and anyone who actually knows the game well will tell you. Otherwise Nurse is the weakest killer in the game and Pig is OP. Clearly not the case.
Bloodlust and mori's are 2 separate issues, I don't understand how you're connecting the two. Mori's are unbalanced on their own and bloodlust is to help against the poor map design since its not fixed yet. I also don't know why the mori issue, or any issue for that matter, would get dropped just because a bad player uses it.
Also if they're going to tier 3 Bloodlust you they wasted a lot of time. I haven't seen a tier 3 bloodlust in a long time. But as a mechanic it still has its place.
Mori's aren't an issue because of bad players they're an issue because they cut the killer objective by over half. Disabling Mori's would at least address a big community issue. I rarely see people complain about bloodlust and when they do its usually entitled survivors who don't know the game anywhere near where they think they do. I see the pattern continues.
There are plenty of more important issues they could tackle or test.
Not using the killrate as a measure of balance, im using the killrate to indicate overperformance. Which is undoubtedly true, because otherwise Pig wouldnt be able to get that many kills.
Mori's still have an issue without Bloodlust, however, it removes the possibility for weaker players to get off a mori as easy as they currently can. Let alone that it definitely helps now that the Undying+Ruin combo exists, which allows killers to essentially chase a single player untill they reach Bloodlust 3 before survivors cleansed the right or final totem.
"bloodlust is to help against the poor map design" This is false. Bloodlust was implemented to help in chases, not on map design. Bloodlust isnt going to help you move from point A to point B faster, it just helps you chase a survivor faster. A survivor that you can cut off and probably hit before Bloodlust even comes into existance. If you loop around the same pallet untill Bloodlust appears, then you're simply a worse mindgamer than that survivor. Point being, good killers dont rely on Bloodlust, at best they use it to their advantage. Bad killers rely on bloodlust. If it were the same for Mori's, they would have been dropped long ago. But weak killers dont need a mori to rely on, they can rely on bloodlust.
All you need is chasing the strongest survivor with Bloodlust 3 to win the game, its easy to go after the weakest player afterwards.
And I've been playing this game before Bloodlust was even implemented. It currently has it's place for 3 killers, all other killers dont need Bloodlust to win against survivors that are equally skilled other than to give an advantage to a killer that is skilled worse. Considering people care about skill a lot, its a bit unfair to give killers a practically free advantage to that. I mean, there is a reason they didnt add in 120% movement speed killers. Besides, like I said, Bloodlust has been on the list longer than even Mori has. And the devs truly want to keep in Ebony Mori somehow, while Bloodlust was a 4 year old quick patching job to an issue that needed a different solution and was never meant to be a permanent mechanic.
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@MrPenguin said:
The game is still survivor favored and yet we're testing making killers weaker. Ouch.
Why not test something else like less pallets, or disabling DS, disable keys and mori's. You know something people have been asking for, not bloodlust which is very low on the priority list for most people if its even on it.
Killer winrate is literally at its peak. How is it survivor favored? Because you still can lose games as killer? Bloodlust actually has been on the priority list for a long time, it's a big contributor to why mori's are broken in the first place: It allows killers who are not skilled enough to take down players who obviously are more skilled than that killer. If killers who are not experienced enough but use a mori cant even reach their target, then the mori issue gets dropped, right?
I mean, what use will disabling ebony mori do, when bloodlust was a big contributor to that mori in the first place? I mean, those killers most likely had Bloodlust on t3 before they could even down the survivor for a mori.
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@Hoodied said:
Or people are just gonna play the high mobility killers more?
Really all this test is gonna show is that around 50% of the killer roster needs Bloodlust to assist in the chase to give them a chance (i.e Trapper, Pig, Oni, Legion, Plague, Demogorgon, in a manner Michael, Ghostface, etc) while the other 50% can carry themselves (I.E Nurse, Billy, Blight, etc)
Out of those killers:
Trapper doesnt need bloodlust, trapper is a killer who needs at least 1 more base trap or have all the traps available to you at the start and repurpose the sack addons. The rest of his design is around forcing survivors into area's that you have trapped before.
Pig currently might need Bloodlust 1(Still making 2 and 3 useless)needs deepwounds applied on healthy survivors when she hits them with a dash. Pig is already slowing down matches long enough with her mask to compensate for the slightly increased chase.
Oni doesnt need bloodlust. He is supposed to have a hard early game because he snowballs hard. Give an Oni 1 hit and enough blood and you need to start rushing gens. If you cant get that hit early game, then you need to practice as a killer. No space needed for bloodlust.
Legion doesnt need bloodlust. He can already get enough advantage out of having practically constantly injured survivors.
Plague doesnt need bloodlust, heck, I'd even say Plague barely needs perks at all to win games as she essentially has a free Corrupt Intervention unless you want to be injured, and if you dont want to be injured anymore, you'll give her the ability of old huntress.
Demogorgon kinda needs it, but just like Pig, he only needs Bloodlust 1. Reworking some of his addons alone fixes that.
I am a Myers main, the only time I need Bloodlust is either using addons that slow my movement down or being T1 Myers, but I could easily play without Bloodlust in those games because Play With Your Food alone compensates your movementspeed in those builds.
Ghostface, same like Myers, except you dont really need it. You cant even get bloodlust 1 while the instadown is active, and if you cant hit the survivor before the timer runs out, you need to practice on your mindgames.
So yeah, even those killers do not rely on bloodlust to work, let alone that those killers can get 4k's without bloodlust.
Unless you fully exclude addons and perks on killers and expect killers to work without perks and addons just fine, but then you're simply delusional if that is the height of your bar.
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@Zaytex said:
Tunnelling is the strongest strategy if the killer confirms there is no DS/BT or has methods to negate either one.
I understand its ''toxic'' to some people and its un-fun, but I heavily doubt the survivors in that match wouldn't have rushed gens and abused strong loops if they had the chance.
Thing is, a lot of survivors are trained to play the first minute sweaty as ######### and then slow down because of toxic killers. You basically have to be a toxic ######### for a full minute to find out whether or not the killer is a toxic #########. There are no winners to it.
In fact, the old infinite window wasnt even discovered untill survivors needed to literally infinitely loop killers who ran Ebony Mori, because Ebony Mori didnt require a hook at the time and could be used as soon as you downed 1 person. Billy didnt have red addons, so all he got was New Moon Bouqets and Ebony Mori's. Billy players back then were considered the most toxic players because they got to use Ebony Mori every single game and get rewarded for it.
So even if Ebony Mori didnt exist, the infinite windows would have eventually been found and abused, yes. But killers abusing vanilla mechanics forces survivors to find ways to abuse mechanics in their own favor to a point where they need to abuse by default before calming down. You cannot have a chill game of survivor untill you know if the killer is chill or not.
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@PNgamer said:
Don´t get me wrong but to remove theese mechanic will be end to an desaster on red ranks if survivor listen what they do. They will loop you to the death. Alot ppl listen how horrible the killerexperience was without bloodlust and with all that infinates and the new maps still have strong loops. Im not a killermain or survivor main: I play both on red ranks, but you can trust me, it was not fun for killers.
Let me explain why removing bloodlust is a good thing overall:
- Bloodlust was introduced before Exhaustion perks were even a catagory. It was literally needed to compensate. At this point, Bloodlust was balanced.
- Bloodlust got a massive buff when all exhaustion perks stopped regenerating while running.
- Bloodlust became quite strong on Dead Dawg Saloon because of breakable walls
- Breakable walls are retro-actively implemented to shorten bigger loops even further, making Bloodlust practically impossible to counterplay and tunneling really easy because there are shorter loops.
All in all, Bloodlust has recieved so many buffs that it's existance is overpowered to the point of carrying people who rely on it, but its so unnecessary for good killers that they barely even get to use Bloodlust.
Besides, removing bloodlust allows them to add things to individual killers who still relied quite heavily on bloodlust. The only reason I see why they turn it off temporarily is to adjust killers who need it before removing it completely. Because if they removed it before adjusting, those killers would be practically impossible to play as.
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@DevilSad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1750991#Comment_1750991
Again, I don't think it's biased to address an on topic problem the game has. The topic is fixing DS and these were my suggestions. I play both sides, by the way. But lets go down your route. Since you seem to have a survivor bias, let me ask you; Do you believe DS should be a perk, hindering the skill cap of both sides, or do you think a DS-like mechanism should be built into the game, so survs can't run it into killers (which is a big part of red ranks) and make killers learn that tunneling (early game) is not the play?
DS should remain a perk, the issue with killers is slugging and rushing kills. Slugging should have some negative impact on killer gameplay. Perhaps boosting other survivors in some way. DS already deals with killers rushing kills, but that doesnt solve the problem because there are still games without any obsession that allow killers to essentially remove anyone they please.
Personally, I rather see someone being the obsession by default, regardless of perks in the game. I dont see any reason not to at this point. Survivors dont know who has the obsession perk and killers would have to care about DS by default.
And yes, I still think that offering a solution that makes DS essentially a killer perk is biased. Yes, survivors actually NEED perks and addons that allow them to tank hits with very little consequence. It's OP during the EGC, but lets be fair, there are many more matches where you get a 3k than matches where 3 survivors escape. If 3+ survivors survive to the EGC, have BT and actually get the unhook, they deserve to be able to bodyblock their way out of the game. Those type of games only happen once every 200 games in the first place and you simply got outplayed.
As for BT, just hit em. The sooner you hit them, the less they can block you and they are either slugged or need to mend. Killers have plenty of ways around survivor perks, survivors barely have any way around killer perks unless they happen to have the exact counter to that perk.
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@sulaiman said:
Because they are the only element offered to balance the power of swf.
Lol, perks, addons and practically all the abilities can counter a SWF. Using a Mori is simply admitting you cannot get a single kill and that you're outmatched(do note tho, offering a mori and using them are seperate things). Which is okay if the game reflected that, but it obviously doesnt.
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@vieira_patrick said:
I'm kinda new in the game (200 hours) and i play only as killer (i tried solo survivor but it's not fun as killer) and i don't see problem in DS, but some times i cross a survivor who i don't see since the hook and i get stabed on my back, i know its is the perk mechanics and is part of the game ...
but i have a suggestion who probably already was debated here, its would be 2 changes on the perk:
First: When outside of the killer terror radius (or N meters) the time window (60 seconds) runs faster, like 1.3x so if far away from the killer (not being tuneled) the duration is shorter (42 seconds)
Second: If healed for 1 health state it's canceled.
Problems with that tho:
- There are plenty of perks, addons and abilities that fully remove the terror radius
- There are plenty of instadowns in the game that fully negate being healed up(let alone that Adrenaline and NOED exist, having Adrenaline negate DS while NOED allows instadowns is a bit unfair).
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@Yatol said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1745794#Comment_1745794
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1745965#Comment_1745965
Any survivor worth its salt is not going to let you down them again after you ate the DS, DS is not fine because of what you are allowed to do during its duration. (this is literally why they nerfed PGW)
Pop Goes The Weasel's issue was a bit different tho. 1 pop use fully negates the total stuntime of 4 ds's. 4 pop uses fully negate the time gained by survivors using the 4 DS's, and after that, you could still get more pops off. DS is only single activation, single use. Pop definitely had a bigger priority to a nerf than DS purely based on that alone. The average chase is 30 seconds per healthstate. That allowed Pop to be applied to a generator after 40% of chases and then getting a new Pop. You cant use DS after a chase and then re-use it later on. Let alone that the effects of DS gets weaker the less survivors there are, while Pop only grew in strength with less survivors.
Comparing them isnt even fair. DS is so notable because killers encounter it all the time, but killers have access to perks that have essentially the same power as survivor perks, but multiplied by at least 5, fully countering those survivor perks and having room for 1 more survivor to counter.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1747048#Comment_1747048
I agree that in matches where the survivors aren't really pressing it's not a big deal, and I see where you're coming from on that. In many games you can eat a DS and not be completely screwed, even at red rank. My comment was basically assuming survivors that are playing optimally that you'd want to counter by playing optimally. I don't have the motivation to reply in as much detail as that deserves, but I did read it!
And I think that is definitely where we meet in the middle. I really think the idea I developed would massively decrease the power of an optimal SWF as they have no way of keeping DS untill the EGC, without screwing over people who play casually. And that is the hardest part of balancing, not making things impossible for casual play without making it impossible to play against in competitive play. Ofcourse it might need some tweaking here and there, but for a solution that could be implemented right now, I think its worth giving it a try in a PTB to see how much it affects the game.
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@DevilSad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1747739#Comment_1747739
Again, I don't think I should be called biased for offering on topic suggestions. Where's your idea, buddy?
You've literally only been biased tho. You've only complained about the issues that DS cause without even thinking about the reason why the game needs(yes NEEDS) a perk like DS in the first place. There are plenty of killer perks that are much stronger than DS. Not including the fact that there are 500000 ways to get a survivor out of the round before the first generator even popped, 300000 of which do not include the skill of the survivor and of those 300000, you have at least 50000 that dont even require skill at all.
Meaning you literally can be removed from the game before you even have the oppertunity to earn your #########, regardless of skilllevels between survivors and killers. DS is one of the few perks that addresses that issue, nerfing it in ways I've seen suggested also affect that part of DS. That is why I call out the killer bias, because killer-only mains tend to ignore the survivor experience rather than acknowledging why things were needed in the first place. Undying was needed because of hex totem spots being remembered by every survivor, so Undying gets bigger value out of most totems. Except in the case of Ruin, where it made a balanced perk(it was average, not too strong, not too weak) completely overpowered.
DS is fairly balanced as it is, it just needs more insurance that DS doesnt survive untill the EGC to the point that the only way to have DS active in the EGC requires you never being hooked before due to its massive power during the EGC.
I mean, lets say I gave the following suggestion: Cleansing Undying should cleanse all hextotems at the same time. You'd totally call me out on having a bias towards survivors and you would be fully in your right to do so, because it only benefits survivors.(altho, you could simply add in more so that cleansing any hextotem randomizes EVERY hex totem, in which case, undying would be a double edged sword, which actually could be nice. But that doesnt take away that the initial suggestion is filled with bias).
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
Being tunneled has nothing to do with most of those factors. If you're chased straight off the hook over chasing otehr nearby survivors you're benig tunneled.
Being unhooked and found again a minute later on a gen because everyone else was hiding isn't being tunneled.
Except a killer can "shadow" tunnel, keeping enough distance to not start a chase untill the timer is done. Again, you would need to fully define tunneling in terms of gameplay mechanics before you could change DS. All those factors I mentioned matter. Why? Ill go off the list
- if there is 2 people left, is chasing the unhooked survivor tunneling? There is only 1 other target you could chase, not many options. I wouldnt call that tunneling.
- If your team has everyone hooked twice, but you just got off your first hook. Would it really be tunneling if the remainder of options include death? I would argue not.
- What if you down someone who was off the hook, then chase someone else, come back after almost a full minute only to get stunned, did you truly tunnel that person?
- If there is 1 generator left and the killer has been quite brutal, is tapping the 1 gen left to stop regression truly reason enough to no longer calling it a tunnel? The killer could have gotten Dragon's Grip to benefit from that situation anyway if the survivor got a quick heal off hook, so why punish a survivor harshly for doing what needs to be done to not sandbag your team? I dont see a single situation where that suddenly stops being a tunnel unless the survivor actually starts working on a generator, in which case, that is a fair strategy. You could down the survivor anyway, you dont need to grab him/her.
Its not as easy as you assume. If you think it is, you havent considered the implications it will have on the game. Deactivating it without any consideration is like slapping ductape on a crack in a wall and calling it fixed. You might no longer see the crack at first, but over time, it will continue to grow.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1747212#Comment_1747212
By late game, I just meant not immediately. And it is a problem: petty little killers that just want their 1 undeserved pity kill will absolutely tunnel and camp in the actual late game, despite having no reward for it at all. This is the most common time where I see tunnelers get DS'd, and good killers avoid it, because good killers snowball.
Thing is tho, you cannot avoid that. Even with the changes everyone else suggested, Ebony Mori is still extremely common in bloodwebs and bypasses all that anyway. The only reason those killers ever tunnel and/or camp is because they ran out, even though I cant see any reason you'd run out of Ebony's. I literally did an experiment on how many Ebony Mori's I could get while levelling a killer to level 50 and then try my hardest to get rid of all of them while still spending BP and getting more Ebony Mori's. After 50 games, I still had enough to continue but after that I got bored.
Obviously I used BBQ to maximise bloodpoint output, but there are some bloodwebs where you get 2 Ebony's and sometimes survivors use BPS or Ghastly Gateau, all earning me enough bloodpoints to keep on feeding the Ebony Mori train. I didnt enjoy any of the games I played, I just wanted to know if it was a legitimate strategy, and I am actually disgusted that it could be if you had some lucky RNG.
I might actually do it again, as I happen to be leveling a killer I am currently prestiging, and considering P3 has the highest chance of getting ultra rare offerings, I want to experiment with how long the reign of Ebony Mori can be. I do tend to be able to predict where the Entity will start consuming next fairly accurately and essentially play a game of bloodweb chess and win most of the time, making some bloodwebs only cost 30k BP to get to the next one(especially if it has nothing I want). If it ends up giving me more Ebony Mori's than I can use(again), I will definitely make a post about it, urging to change Ebony immediately.
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@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1746406#Comment_1746406
This is exactly what I was thinking. Hopefully they add something like it to her because right now she seems extremely weak to me, and the fact that you can literally play a game of kidnapper with it really shows how weak her power is.
To be fair, Viktor gives her a completely new playstyle that has not been seen in the game. She has her weakness in chase as being no better than Trapper in chases, however, Viktor allows her to spread her pressure on the map without survivors realizing untill its too late. You can essentially facecamp with Viktor too as you'll get a notification from any walking or running survivor within range, being essentially the same power as Hag, but instead of teleporting your pressure from one side of the map, you also leave pressure on the map where you left Charlotte.
I do believe the transitions between them need to be faster, and I do believe Charlotte needs something extra when Viktor has left her body or her Terror Radius(my personal preference is amplifying the strength of negative status effects on survivors and reducing the strength of positive status effects on them), but people need to play around with her new playstyle before claiming she's weak. She isnt the strongest killer, but its foolish to call her weak. Remember when Oni's pink addon was considered the most useless addon in game untill wallhacker Oni became a thing? Which got a slight nerf recently due to the changes of Thana, but there are different perks that still achieve a similar result.
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@MadLordJack said:
This doesn't really fix the problem that is DS. It needs to be a constant threat to prevent certain people from hardcore tunneling, but it also needs to not protect the survivor who tries to use it offensively and/or force it. All this does is buff it so that it's a guaranteed-use perk but also make it so that those aforementioned killers will tunnel in the late game.
Tunneling late game is not an issue tho, more often than you think, late game tunneling is actually necessary. All DS is meant to do, is prevent players from being sacrificed early in game. In my opinion, this means preventing survivors from dying before they had the oppertunity to get a black pip. If they didnt get at least a black pip in late game, they deserve to be sacrificed.
I mean, lets set up a late game situation: you have a survivor who got hooked before first gen, this survivor somehow managed to avoid the killer the remainder of the game untill there are 2 generators left. Then the killer gets her and hooks her again. The killer has 0 sacrificed people and needs 1 survivor dead to continue his own momentum. It would be incredibly idiotic to call that killer a tunneller for securing a kill when 2 generators are left. If it was a sweaty SWF rushing 3 gens, then it also doesnt matter anymore, because its a sweaty SWF and they deserve to be sacrificed ASAP.
So really, tunnelling late game doesnt really exist. There are probably 1-3 types of situation where I could consider the killer still tunnelling late game, but then you're definitely on the boundary of situations that could be considered tunnelling. If 4 survivors are alive when there is 2 gens left, 1 simply needs to die. It is why you see a lot of Ivory Mori's happen somewhere around 2-3 gens.
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@HatchIsMyMercy said:
I had this thought where we could have like a small sub-slot that would be unlocked when you prestige which would be the option to put blood on the outfit, So that you could merge the blood from prestiging with other outfits if you wanted to.
Eh, problem there is that not all outfits are created equal. The best approach is using a calculation to randomly place blood on outfits, but then you have problems that randomness causes lag, let alone that randomness also create patterns we recognise. Imagine a shirt saying the N-word one game while having a swastika 10 games later. The other approach that is insanely timeconsuming is to manually create a bloodied version of all the items. Let alone that you're asking the devs to make it available for free. Any program that actually takes care of all that and creates splatters for you is definitely an expensive program.
It's a nice thought, but it would be too expensive to create. If, one day, there is an essentially free way to create such a thing, they might be able to implement it. But right now it cant be more than wishful thinking.
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Altho a fair warning: Auric Cells and some cosmetics might not transfer between some accounts. I dont think it would be an issue between PS4 and PS5, but due to pricing and licensing agreements between BHVR, the license holder and the console producer, it might not transfer between some platforms.
For example: BHVR could agree with Google to create an entire outfit that's essentially an advertisement to use Google Stadia, it's kinda obvious that most other platforms would disagree to show that outfit on their platform, giving that survivor simply the default clothing instead.
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You can create a cross-platform account somewhere on the dbd website. It keeps your data and DLC's active on both accounts. I have linked my Google Stadia and Steam account through it too.
https://account.bhvr.com/ This link should get you there
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I dont know my hitrate, there are games where I hit only great skillchecks(and thus overcharge skillchecks as they are the same) and games where I never hit a great skillcheck and thus fail all overcharge skillchecks.
However, with the new and improved version of Technician, even though it punishes you more for missing the skillcheck, it prevents the notification to the killer. Not that I run it often, but the one time I happened to run it, it was vs an Overcharge Unnerving Presence(yes, insanely small skillchecks) Doctor who would camp his 3-gen based on notifications only. Which was nice, as 15% regression is nothing when the killer never knows you triggered it and just lets you finish it.
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@doggomanno said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/205540/possible-balancing-for-ds
I do think this isn't the best solution tbh. I think making ds deactivate once they touch a generator or during endgame collapse and keep it as it is. This would help make it much more reasonable.
You're saying that because of Scott Jund, aren't you. Issue being: touching a generator isnt the same as working on a generator. Deactivating it during the EGC when the killer could have eaten it earlier is also an issue. You're basically incentizing killers to slug everyone. That is a problem with Scott's design. It doesnt consider factors of toxic players. With current DS, if it survives to the EGC, either you respect the killer for not making you use DS earlier in game, or you dont. With Scott's version, killers could plan on the fact that the EGC has no DS at all, you cant stop a generator from regressing if the killer makes bad decisions during a chase. Touching a generator doesnt mean you're not getting tunneled. You could be tunneled by a stealth killer who's simply waiting till you start working on a generator. That's a problem too.
It's not a bad suggestion, but it raises more problems than it currently solves. DS is an anti-removal perk, not an anti-tunnel perk.
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@Wingmonster said:
I'm just gonna start camping lol
You mean throwing the game?
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1746818#Comment_1746818
The best idea I saw is that in actual tunneling it would just not go down. And only start ticking when downed so you have 60 seconds to revive or be revived. But would deactivate when another player is hooked, you heal a health state or touch a gen.
The problem with that tho, is how could the game recognise you being tunneled? Assuming you could, it would require a massive script that includes a shitton of factors like: how many survivors are alive, how many hooks have you been on, how many hooks have other survivors been on. Let alone that hooking someone else doesnt necessarily mean you didnt tunnel, let alone that touching a gen has many reasons(you're the only one in the area with a regressing generator that has a lot of progress. You would literally be sandbagging your team if you didnt stop regression, but you're still being tunneled). Even if someone else gets hooked, you could have been downed before while the killer hooks someone else first while that timer ticks down.
Then you also have how many people were in killer vision, how many of those people did the killer actually see? You would need an eye tracker to confirm how many the killer sees. It's simply not possible to properly determine a situation where you get tunneled. You'd be screwing over killers who dont tunnel and screw over survivors who get tunneled because the game didnt recognise it as a tunnel. You need so much data to confirm whether or not it's a tunnel that its practically impossible to implement such a mechanic. The only real confirmation you could add is by forcing the killer to look at a survivor who has the least hooked stages in the area in a similar way that survivors are forced to look at a hag when they trigger a trap, and if they then continue to chase the unhooked survivor, only then it could be considered a tunnel, but there are issues with that aswell. Perhaps that survivor was hiding in plain sight to finish up the generator before swapping places with the tunneled survivor, perhaps there is a body behind the killer that needs picking up, perhaps there was an item dropped that they wanted to return.
You're asking too much by asking the developers to create a script that could recognise tunneling without making the game objectively worse.