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@Frontdoor6 said:
I was playing killer for a while and i kept seeing Survivors who, instead of doing gens, just run in circles and t-bag before the match even starts. They continuously loop in the same places and body block even if they aren't SWF.
It feels like they take more joy in mocking the killer than seeking terror by avoiding the killer. Why do you think that is? Is it because Survivor side is too easy? Are they trying to show off? Because usually a toxic survivor groups has clothes that stand out and use lights or keys
It just feels like more and more Survivors are not respecting the killer and its hard not to take personally some times. I mean, i sometimes think 'do they do this with everyone or just me?'
I just think survivors are getting too overconfident, like they think they'll win every time no matter who they're with or what happens. Also, i'm pretty sure they can see through the walls, they manage to know where i'm going even of they can't see me.
What are your thoughts?
Survivors need to respect the killer as much as killers need to respect survivors. Survivors who got sick and tired of being tunneled out started using builds that make them really annoying to catch. Since survivors WANT each other to win, they will body block and tank hits in order to keep their teammate alive.
It's actually best to hit anyone close to you as 1, now they need to heal and can't bother you, or work on gens giving you a massive head start in chase as they are injured. Because if they body block a survivor and you don't have 120%+ movementspeed, you won't be able to run around them. So any second spend not hitting them is a waste of time.
Bodyblocking is the survivors best mechanic against tunnelers. Blame tunnelers for survivors using those mechanics against non-tunnelers. Remember, survivors don't know your intentions at all. You could be another filthy tunneler, in which case it's better to be safe than sorry. Survivors losing 1 teammate early on means survivors lose the ability to finish gens.
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@Dizzy1096 said:
All these survivors complain about little counterplay, have you ever taken a low/mid tier killer with no kind of anti-loop mechanics against good survivors stacking second chance perks through maps full of safe pallets, god pallets, god windows and spaced between hold W zones?
Survivors have no counterplay too in many scenarios yet people act like it doesn’t exist. Its why people dont enjoy using those killers at high rank.
Yes, I have, arguably the worst killer on the roster, Myers, can hold his own against good survivors.
The point where you stop being wrong, and start being right, is the competitive scene. You know, where survivors actually cannot be countered because they rush gens and the only way to get kills is to camp. But guess what? DBD isn't a tournament. If you struggle as any other killer besides Spirit, you got boosted into red ranks because of Spirit. Stop playing Spirit, take the derank, play killers that actually require skill to play. Learn mechanics that you're obviously lacking and find out what you need to prioritize as a killer, rather than playing Spirit, who can ignore 60% of the game. You suck as other killers because you're uneducated as a killer.
This is exactly why Spirit is a problem. You have people complaining about the average red rank survivor, when pretty much any killer main playing anything but Spirit will tell you that other than some relatively minor changes, all killers can be used in red ranks.
Spirit needs to either lose her scratchmark tracking, making it harder for her to know what a survivor is doing while also actually giving survivors some counterplay without impacting Spirit's power mechanics. OR she needs to give survivors *some* information on her location while she is phasing.
Both will definitely harm her popularity, but I doubt it will harm her performance. You're still fast enough to fake and get hits. You're still able to hear survivors(note, legion loses blood AND scratchmarks while moving slower than Spirit, can't even down people with his power and I dare you to play against a red rank legion main. Spirit doesn't need scratchmarks).
SWF doesn't need a change, solo survivors do. SWF doesn't need a debuff, survivors working on 3 gens seperately needs one(similar one as 3 survivors working on 1 gen). You don't need to slow down survivors working on 2 gens at the same time, as that gives you 3 sets of gens(2+2+1) as the optimal genfix, which is enough to kill at least 1 survivor and interrupt gens from finishing, other than the current 2 sets(3+2) as optimal genfix. But that change cannot happen untill after solo queue is buffed. SWF would remain the same after all. Once solo queue gets buffed, then the devs can address genspeeds.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2247102#Comment_2247102
His addons I could see but what do you mean by zoning he has a rev time, if you get caught out in the open you were most likely boned yeah but you were in a dead zone, yes there were complaints about crack Billy and insta saw Billy but no one wanted them to touch his base kit and anybody who did were in the vast minority.
I mean, he could rev around pretty much any pallet and keep it at 95% forever untill the survivor made a mistake. Which was on most loops merely 5 seconds at best. Considering people dont have access to dead hard unless they were injured, there was nothing you could do.
Considering killer mains are always about "fairness in looping", there shouldnt ever be a position in a loop where you're essentially powerless against any killer. There should always be counterplay. It goes both ways.
I wanted Billy to have his infinite zoning removed, for the same reason I want Spirit to no longer have scratchmarks while she phases, the same reason I want Nurse to only have access to one blink(increased distance ofcourse), the same reason I want Deathslinger to have a slight cooldown AFTER aiming where he cant aim, same reason I want Old Freddy with some of the new mechanics back over current Freddy, same reason I want Bubba to have 1 stack less than he currently has(he can hit the same person twice in 2 stacks with ease, he can outrun Sprintburst in about 1.6 stacks and hit someone with BT in 1.8 stacks, plenty of room), same reason I want survivors to get a penalty on progression if they work on more than 2 gens at the same time, same reason I want there to be a lever in the game that works like the exit gate lever but instead turns an otherwise deadzone into a loopable region, which the killer can turn off in the same way he can open an exit gate and turn it back into a deadzone.
You dont want infinite zoning in a game that wants to let it's players loop.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246852#Comment_2246852
But people didn't complain about BILLY. They complained about his ADDONS, which should've been the only thing addressed.
his addons AND his zoning. That's it. That's why there is an overheat mechanic added, to no longer make it infinite.
Again, they butchered it, but that doesnt mean they were misplaced in adding the mechanic.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246772#Comment_2246772
Yeah hundreds of complaints about why more killers weren't as well balanced as Billy maybe, I've been playing dbd for several years now and saw almost no complaints about billy before his nerf so please find me some of these hundreds of nerfs and I cant instantly pull up hundreds more complaining about his nerf
I remember at least seeing 1 post per week about Billy. He was by far the most played killer, so people were constantly arguing about the few things that werent fun against Billy: His addons and his zoning capability.
People did agree on him being probably one of the best balanced killers out there, but that doesnt mean there werent complaints. Deathslinger would be quite a well balanced killer if it wasnt for his infinite zoning either. Warden Keys might need a small nerf because it allows him to reload and shoot before survivors even finish their haste bonus post-hit, but even if its the infinite zoning just being removed, would be healthy.
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@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2245931#Comment_2245931
+++++ Agree
You fairly stucked survivor, you will take him down but Dead Hard gave him second chance. And loop will take longer. And maybe for that you lost min 1 gen.
And people saying Dead Hard is not problem. Maybe it is not problem for S-Tier killers but Trapper, Pig, Clown and other weak killers losing so much time because of Dead Hard.
yknow, maybe the issue isnt dead hard being too powerful, but those killers being too weak
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246769#Comment_2246769
Sprint Burst requires far more skill. You need to know when to use it, and how to 99% it. With DH, you press a button for free distance.
SB isn't complained about because it's not as in your face as DH is.
"You need to know when to use it" Ah, just like DH. "and how to 99 it" ah yes, that 0.1 second difference of walking. It's not that much extra skill, honestly.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246772#Comment_2246772
No he didn't.
Everyone liked him
I recommend you look back into posts from 2018-2019 about billy. Lots of people complaining. He had infinite zoning and instarevs. That was complained about the most, those are the things that were addressed the most.
Doesnt mean they didnt butcher Billy in other unneeded ways, but that doesnt mean Billy didnt have issues.
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@DwightFairfield said:
These perks activate once and then don't reactivate for the rest of the game
Why run them if you don't get any more use out of them once the time is up? Especially if you run both.
Well, lets see what games without both perks can do:
You have survivors spawning next to a generator, you dont know which generator, now that generator is gone and you dont even have a hook yet.
These perks tend to block gens where survivors spawn(not always, but good enough), allowing you to patrol a much smaller area. Lethal Pursuer will give you the EXACT location of survivors at the start of the game.
You dont need much gen regression if you know where survivors are and what they would do next. Gen regression is needed because you DONT KNOW where survivors are, nor what they would do next. If you can be where survivors are, they cant work on gens in that area without risking hits. If you dont know where survivors are, they can work on whatever gen they want to, you wont know untill you find them.
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@DwightFairfield said:
Her entire power was designed as a fix for genrushing back when that was a much bigger problem, and now she's stuck in this perpetual limbo.
I don't think Pig is the worst killer and I don't think you should switch mains, I feel bad about you guys because her power and most of her perks were designed as bandaid fixes to problems that don't exist anymore.
I'd say Pig is a supposed A tier killer hanging around in low B tier. She needs a few QoL changes to get her back up in the A tier
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@douggie123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246579#Comment_2246579
This becomes difficult when there are only 3 survivors and the group has rules in about no tunneling or camping.
Then they shouldnt be running perks that require killers to tunnel and/or camp to counter
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246532#Comment_2246532
But OoO also got hundreds of complaints on the daily, while Billy got none, so...
Billy did get hundreds of complaints tho.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2246588#Comment_2246588
Yes, Sprint Burst is better, but DH for distance is still OP.
Then how is sprintburst never complained about? Even though its almost as common as Dead Hard? It's also just the press of 1 button, it doesnt require skill other than timing, just like DH.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2245204#Comment_2245204
You can gen rush any camping killer. But you can at least trade hooks vs other killers.
Apply pressure=/=camping.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2245218#Comment_2245218
And like I said before, if we change hag so her traps, x distance from hook, are destroyed after the unhook, it would literally solve all the issues you keep bringing up.
Because it means you can just run away after the unhook, and she would have no way of catching up.
Hag is good without addons...so?
Several killers are. Huntress, wraith, spirit, freddy, blight, billy, nurse... so what if hag is good without them? Why should a killer depend on an addon to be good?
And again, twins can facecamp from the other edge of the map.
Hell, freddy can technically teleport to a gen near a hook and get instavalue of myc or devour... so can demogorgon (which in fact, I have done).
"And like I said before, if we change hag so her traps, x distance from hook, are destroyed after the unhook, it would literally solve all the issues you keep bringing up."
No, it would only half the issue where Hag instead of check all the gens within 35 meter radius and walk back before someone walks out, into all gens within 18 meters before returning to the hook IF someone was waiting around the corner and instantly crouched for the save. That's still a massive area.
"Several killers are. Huntress, wraith, spirit, freddy, blight, billy, nurse... so what if hag is good without them? Why should a killer depend on an addon to be good?"
No, being good without addons isnt the same as not needing any addons at all. Nurse is similar, but at least the majority of Nurse's addons dont really make her even better, there's only 2 that do. Hag you can almost slap on anything.
And not specific addons, but addons are part of the game. Killer basekits are designed on how powerful their addons are, never the other way around. Hag is the exception to this rule.
"And again, twins can facecamp from the other edge of the map."
Except that Twins needs to be 16 meters away in the first place, she cant appear instantly next to the hook, she doesnt ever know someone will unhook untill after their unhook happened. Demo and Freddy also cant appear next to the hook instantly, they need time, they need to make distance, you have time to tank hits or make distance. That's not the case with Hag.
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@fogdonkey said:
The idea is that there should be some time limit on the length of a match. If it runs out, survivors are auto-sacrificed, similarly like after end game collapse. This would make the matches more interesting, different strategies need to be used based on the remaining time, and also prevents the matches from taking forever because of survivors hiding in lockers or healing in the corners.
More detailed ideas:
- Add a timer (e.g. 17 minutes, needs to be finetuned) which starts running at the start of the match. When the timer runs out all survivors are auto-sacrificed.
- The map starts as dark (during night) and gradually gets brighter as the timer is running out and daylight is getting closer.
- There can be offerings which shorten or extend the timer.
- Hatch can appear e.g. 2 minutes before daylight and open 1 minute before daylight regardless of the number of survivors alive and number of gens repaired.
- If gates are opened or hatch closed the end game collapse also starts and survivors are automatically sacrificed if one of the timers runs out.
- Killer power, speed, stun duration, special ability recharge duration etc. can change as the daylight is approaching and the killer is getting more tired and weaker. Or maybe the killer should get gradually stronger? Not sure, needs to be tested.
Let me know what you think about this idea!
I honestly like the current set up more: The less gens there are, the smaller the patrol area gets, the smaller area the killer needs to patrol, the stronger he is.
Because that's the biggest issue in this game, split gens across large maps. Yamaoka estate is one of the biggest culprits of this. Either survivors split the gens early on and win, or the killer forces a 3 gen on 1 side and wins. There is no real inbetween. Its extremely frustrating as a killer seeing 1 gen on both sides popping early on as there is no way you could have chased a survivor and protected one side, meaning there is a massive likelihood you end up losing.
Azarov's resting place is a perfectly sized and shaped map for having gens on both sides of the map. Sanctum's Wrath is also a much better version of what Yamaoka's estate SHOULD be. It's one of the biggest issues with Ormond and Mothers Dwelling. There is such a large patrol area that doesnt really get smaller unless you force 3-gens.
As for match times, they can be argued both ways. I've had killers refusing to kill survivors when they tried fixing the final generator. That game lasted 25 minutes and I was really tempted to DC. I dont think survivors should be the ones getting punished after 17 minutes. Because after 17 minutes, the killer should easily have gotten 2 kills and find the last one.
What I do think this game needs, is give the killer a basekit movementspeed buff(120% movementspeed at the very least, even 110% killers) when the EGC starts, destroy certain structures entirely, let alone add a count down after the final generator to which one of the exit gates automatically opens(which, removes the really boring position where gates spawn too close and the killer can just camp gates for 2 minutes, let alone gates being 99'd and effectively already open without starting the EGC). Give killers a reason to leave the hook once the final gen is done, because right now, there is none. Survivors could still open the gate earlier, giving No Way Out some value. Since one of the gates opens randomly, survivors have no clue where to be waiting or going. Killers can get around bodyblocking as they are significantly faster.
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@Yords said:
Yes I know I am late to this.
Freddy has hardly changed after his nerf, it didn't fix what people did not like about him:
Over the last few games, I have been playing Freddy. And he plays literally the exact same as before. You still just put a snare here and put a snare there and boom, that's it. His gameplay is still the same. He isn't that fun to play as or against, and it takes almost no skill to gain the reward he gets.
He is still a strong killer, don't get me wrong, but the nerfs might as well have done nothing. The only real nerfs were to his slowdown addons and his black box.
Quick question, why was the black box addon nerfed? It is worthless now and I really don't understand why this one was nerfed. It is fitting for an ultra rare, but it was gutted, why?
Anyway, Freddy is still the same as before, just ever so slightly weaker. Here is his gameplay: You get into a chase with a sleeping survivor, you put a snare down are the apex of a loop and get a hit if the survivor decides to greed the pallet; repeat. Or you get into a chase with a sleeping survivor, you put a snare at the apex of the loop, they drop it early; repeat. This isn't very fun, the counterplay to him nor actually playing him.
Compare this to a killer like Huntress. If she is chasing you around a long wall jungle gym for example, you have to watch her and try to bait out a throw and then run away. It is much more fun and interactive besides latency screwing both sides over at times of course. But with Freddy you just play really safe when asleep.
Why people dislike Freddy, and why they still do:
People disliked Freddy because his chases are boring, due to his snares, and because he gets his power ready by just existing.
His nerf addressed none of this nor changed any of it to correspond with the skill of the Freddy player. He is just so boring to play as and against. Why is he still the same? Because he was getting slight nerfs, not full on changes or another smaller rework.
Like I said before he even got nerfs, I said it would not fix what people don't like about him. And they STILL went through because a lot of people thought he was "too strong".
I remember old Freddy, and even he was more fun than current Freddy because it was cool to play him, and his gameplay was unique. Now, not so much.
However the one good thing the Freddy rework originally came with was the dream projection ability. While it is still gotten for free, the actual ability itself is great and a good way to have one part of his power for mobility but not like other mobile killers. It is unique and it should stay if Freddy gets changed again.
What he needs:
Freddy needs changes that add skill to his power in somehow, right now he gets use of his teleport and snares for free because survivors fall asleep passively. His snares should also be changed to take more skill rather than spamming them at loops, and yes he can still do that, the nerfs like I said did almost nothing.
Feel free to share your thoughts on if you agree with me or not, maybe even come up with a few concepts for how his snares could work differently.
TL;DR: Freddy's nerfs did not change what people disliked about him at all, he is still a very boring killer.
Honestly, current Freddy is a bit nicer to play against. There is actually a reason for you to run to another loop if he places a trap, rather than him just faking a trap.
It's not much, but its nice.
I rather see old Freddy back though, just alter him a tiny bit. No more traps, no more pallets, just give him the ability to m1 survivors who arent asleep and the ability to teleport to gens with m2. Then he's a solid killer.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2245940#Comment_2245940
They also said that with Billy, so you never know.
I mean, Billy was redesigned to fit the current meta better, the only issue Billy had, was infinite zoning without a downside(they still didnt address Deathslinger having that tho, so there's that).
But in terms of DH? Nah, not really an issue. The game has been balanced for years with Dead Hard in mind. Killer Lunges were increased because of Dead Hard, momentum was removed after using Dead Hard(so no dead harding into windows for a fast vault).
My biggest argument against DH haters is: Sprintburst is better in every possible way. The only thing Dead Hard can do better than Sprintburst, is avoiding damage mid-air. Anything else, Sprintburst can do better. More distance, more baited swings, longer chases, less pallets being dropped, the list goes on and on. You're mad at Dead Hard even though it's objectively worse than Sprintburst. Sprintburst doesnt leave you exhausted on the floor either.
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@douggie123 said:
How do you counter this perk
The only way Blood Pact will work is if the survivors stay together, if 2 survivors want to be chased together, the biggest counter is to leave them. They cant split up or they will lose their speed. Their biggest asset is their biggest flaw.
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@BastardKing said:
I kinda like Tru's opinion on the matter;
As a survivor, if you pip, it is about whether you played well or not.
Surviving, however, is dependent on if your team played well or not.
Had a game yesterday where there was 1 gen left, 3 people, one guy was on the hook, and I led the killer on a ~45-60 second chase. Dude on the hook died. What did I see when I went down and got hooked? Claudette found the hatch, and was just sitting on it. Refused to save, refused to work on a gen. Could have had a 3 man escape. But one survivor decided that she wanted hatch, even if we all died.
I struggled as long as I could, the killer found her and hatch, and she died. That match had a 100% kill rate, 0% escape. It should have had a 75% escape. One player decided screw the team if I can survive, and the other decided the same for her. That is why kill rates/escape rates don't quite have the value you would think.
It's one of the few things Tru3 keeps right nowadays. The survivor emblem system is all over the place. It rewards you for individual play, but you're obviously reliant on teamplay more than individual play.
Except that tru3 makes a 180 turn and almost always plays selfish as a survivor, saying its a 1v4 but plays it like its a 1v3+1.
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@Adjatha said:
Honestly, there's a LOT of metrics that ought to be factored in, not just kills.
Like, how about Hits? Did the killer get a 0k but hit survivors 15-20 times and the survivors just kept healing back to full?
Or Hooks? Did that 4k come because all the survivors gave up on their first hook?
Or Generators completed? Are all the 1-2k games ending because survivors are just Keying out at the first sign of a real End Game?
Or average time in chase? Is the 4k coming after 10 second chases, or as the result of a grueling, 15 minute ordeal that ended with every pallet broken and 16-some Second Chance perk uses?
But hey, it's just easier to say "Freddy's killing 3 people on average, so clearly he needs a nerf"
I mean, if 1-2k's were mostly due to keys, then the argument would easily be made that key's are fine and that killers are overperforming. Because survivors need to be able to escape normally. If keys are the only way more than 1 survivor escapes, there would be an issue in killers.
And yes, Freddy needed a nerf. He was not fun to play against, he had too much going on. A lot of perks amplified his base mechanics. His main build is still the same, its just that he cant spam his traps during chases anymore. He's still generally as powerful as he was, he's just harder to play now. Which is a good thing. You want powerful mechanics to take skill to perform well. It's the main reason why Spirit is hated so much. You can give Spirit to a beginner and they would perform above expectations.
Do I agree with giving him less traps? No, dont know why they did that, no one ever complained about the amount of traps being placed, it was the fact that he could spam traps that slow down survivors 20% without any punishment himself. Even Clown took more time to use his slowdown than Freddy, and the slowdown is Clown's main power. You literally had a killer that could teleport to any gen be better at hinderance than the killer that was designed around hinderance. Even after the latter got buffed.
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@Lucent said:
I see a lot of talk about different killers kill rate, is there data on survivor escape rates?
I mean, if there is an average killrate of 2.6, the average escape rate would be slightly lower than 1.4(DC's would be whatever is left).
If a killer has an average of 3.1 kills, that means less than 0.9 survivors escape against that killer.
It's not hard to deduce this kind of data. You literally fill in the gap that's left. There's 4 survivors, if 3 of them die on average, how many would escape on average? A bit less than 1 due to DC's being a thing.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2244802#Comment_2244802
I did. I'm saying I can deal with a camping hag with any addon.
unlike a camping bubba... which you can't do anything about it
I mean, you can if its not the basement, it's tough as #########, but you can. Besides, my issue isnt the fact that the killer is camping, my issue is the region that the killer has camping pressure on. Since you dont seem to understand after so many posts, I'll compare the situations:
This would essentially be the area that a camping Bubba would have pressure on, Bubba is there, so Bubba cannot pressure any gens as he needs to be there to have active hook pressure. You can easily decide to leave him be and rush gens, because he actively needs to stay close to the hook:
Now this is the situation for a camping Hag, Hag can pressure any gens that are within a radius of 40 meters of her furthest trap, put that hook anywhere close to the center of most maps, and she can essentially teleport back instantly, let alone that even if no traps are being triggered, as I stated before, every trap has a basekit diameter of 6 meters where it can be triggered and survivors MUST crouch that distance to not trigger it(seriously, if they could walk instead if traps were in the radius of a hook, would already be SO much better). Meaning that PER TRAP, a survivor has to crouch 6-ish seconds, in which Hag can move 25 meters. So if its a hook on the stairwell on Hawkins for example, that means Hag can place 4 traps there(3 on any generic corner hook, forcing a survivor to crouch for roughly 11 seconds assuming the traps are placed right next to each other, but Hag can easily add 2 more meters between those traps and an additional 2 meters between the hook and the first traps, because who's gonna run those 2 meters and risk triggering them? Making it effectively 15 seconds of time for a survivor to only crouch a mere 16 meters with the only real counter play being a flashlight. In those 15 seconds, Hag can effectively check every generator within 35 meters and walk back to the hook without the hooked person being rescued. So you end up with a pressure that's more like this(I didnt go for the hawkins one, it was just an example of a more extreme case, but that hook isnt even the worst on the list). Giving her an effective defacto camping pressure region of this:
There is a reason why many hag mains stop using addons. It's because Hag doesnt need them. Her pressure is immense. No other killer can have Make Your Choice trigger and hit that survivor before they finished their unhook. No other killer can gain a stack of Devour and rehook the same survivor 2 seconds later. This is why the 8 meter region around the hook(which is considered to be the facecamping region by the devs themselves) needs to be trapless, because it would be a defacto facecamp, and no killer should be able to effectively facecamp from 40 meters away. It still allows hag to place traps nearby the border of it, but it gives survivors a moment to actually run to an unhook. Unhooking a teammate that has no killer around shouldnt be punished by the killer having the power to instantly appear next to the hook. Appearing nearby? Sure, no problem with that. Nurse can do that, Spirit can pretty much do that(although, she needs to make distance first), Freddy can do that(if there is a gen near, and takes time), Demo can do that(again, takes time). It's the fact that Hag instantly can appear next to you, why her traps simply shouldnt be in the facecamping region. If it took her time to do so, fine, no issues, but we all know Hag is below F tier if she needs to take time to teleport.
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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241868#Comment_2241868
If you're going to do something like that you need to bother other avenues that she has to compensate.
The biggest problem on spirit is that she has very little in terms of actual counterplay.
Hitting her tracking doesn't do it because it means the top spirit players are still going to have this problem.
You need to give survivors more information that indicates what do the spirit could possibly be doing so they can make more informed decisions it wouldn't be a complete giveaway but it would help survivors at least plan.
I mean, not really. The biggest reason why top tier spirits dont have an issue with scratchmarks is due to the 175% movementspeed. They still semi-rely on scratchmarks. Removing them will be a healthy step in the right direction without altering her power too much, and should make bad killers relying on Spirit to reach red ranks to be put back in purple ranks.
This is to narrow down her issues a bit more, and actually address what's wrong with her. Nerfing her power because she can easily track survivors with her power is the wrong way of addressing her. That's like increasing Nurse's fatique when the biggest issue is that Nurse can close the gap in 1 blink and adjust for a hit in her second one. It's better to remove 1 blink from Nurse, than to increase her fatique even more. Sure, an increased fatique would technically help survivors, but it doesnt really address the core of the issue. Spirit's problem isnt her speed. Blight moves faster than Spirit. It's the fact she can easily track down survivors. Her lack of information doesnt really matter as much if she's not as good at tracking you. Not having blood or scratchmarks makes spirit just as blind of survivors long distance, as survivors are blind on spirit close distance. Right now, Spirit has no reason to not use her power. None. It's always good to use her power. You either chase the scratchmarks to close distance, or you use it mid-chase to quickly go to the opposite side. Removing her ability to chase scratchmarks to close the distance will already affect Spirit's gameplay enough to make her lose survivors while using her power. Which makes her power riskier to use. You dont want to use your power and then lose a survivor.
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"Yes you can. You can literally just run up to the killer and get hit for free. Being injured is NOT something you work for, unlike a hook. A hook requires you to chase a survivor, successfully down them, and place them on a hook. You cannot just get a free hook. Being injured is something the KILLER works for, not you. This makes LITERALLY no sense."
I mean, yeah, sure, it's a free DH, at the cost of a severely reduced chase. I dont see a problem there. What I am talking about is trying to keep the killer distracted as long as possible, THEN getting injured, THEN you get rewarded with a DH. If a survivor runs up to you for a hit so they can use DH is like being able to kill a survivor with Tombstone Piece because you hit the Obsession while using Dark Devotion. Both are essentially "free", but they do come at quite a risk.
Again, it's not free if you have to SACRIFICE something for it. Vigo's salty lips giving 3% extra luck on unhooking yourself isnt a free 3%. Using an Ebony Mori isnt a free instakill. You sacrificed something to gain that ability. Just like Dead Hard, you sacrifice something to gain something. The question is more at how skilled you are at actually pulling it off. So no, not free. Sure, it might take "less work" than getting a down, but it's still a perk that gives you an advantage for playing normally. That's why I compared it to Pop, BBQ and others. The reason YOU have an issue against it, is because it's used against you. That makes it annoying, not broken.
"something the killer has to do. You do NOTHING to get injured. I think you need to give up on this one."
No, it's something part of being survivor. Again, not a single match against a competent killer has survivors remaining uninjured all game. Becoming injured is part of being a survivor. It's up to survivors to find ways to avoid getting hit as long as possible, and find ways to use getting hit against the killer as much as possible. This is why good survivors dont drop a pallet if they suspect getting hit anyway and just hold W. Which, FYI, is more damaging to you than Dead Hard.
"Depends on which it is and what the conditions are + how strong it is."
Just. Like. Dead Hard. There are certain situations Dead Hard can be absolutely disgusting in how long they make a chase going, but in the majority of situations, it doesnt really extend the chase by much. Same with instadowns. There are many locations where they can be absolutely uncounterable(bubba with his chainsaw for example, or Spirit with Haunted active), yet, there are also many locations where those abilities arent that great anyway. Same for Dead Hard.
"You're punished for injuring survivors. You admit this by arguing that DH does not work if you're one-shot. You're not punished for "unsuccessfully baiting Dead Hard." You cannot bait a DH for distance. They will always get value out of it."
What is this logic? You're not punished for injuring survivors just as little as survivors are punished for not being able to finish a generator when you have Pop. Pop doesnt work on gens that are finished, so does Pop punish survivors for not finishing gens? In which case, making Pop punishing for survivor for not succesfully finishing their objective, which, is the same as killers not succesfully ending a chase?. And yes, you can bait Dead Hard for distance. It might only be 1-2 seconds of value that they get out of it, but 1-2 seconds of value for an exhaustion perk is terrible value.
Head-On gives a 3 second stun, meaning 3 seconds of distance gained. Smash hit gives massive distance as it includes a 2 second stun and perhaps a pallet break. Sprintburst pretty much always adds 10 seconds to chase time whenever its used. Dead Hard "guarantueeing" 2 seconds extra being a criticism is kinda laughable. Let alone that exhaustion inducing things exist, you literally cannot use Dead Hard if you're exhausted prior to a chase, while Sprintburst works before most exhaustion inducing things apply. Again, Sprintburst can do anything Dead Hard can, but better. More distance, not needing to be injured, works longer, can be a simple press of a single button either. So if you consider Sprintburst to be fine, Dead Hard is fine too. You just know how to deal against Sprintburst, but not against Dead Hard.
"You wouldn't say it's basically the same thing as another extremely awful mechanic that was removed for being busted."
In that case: remove thana, old dying light was removed because it's genprogression penalty was too powerful, yet Thana is still in game, and 4 stacks of Thana is very close to what old Dying Light used to do. Or remove Devour Hope, it gives you the ability to mori someone who has never been hooked. Or remove Resillience, as it reduces generator speeds back to 70 seconds, which it used to be back in the day but was changed. I can pull a massive list of awful mechanics that were removed from the game for being busted that still exist in a nerfed form. Dead Hard is a heavily nerfed version of pallet vacuums. Pallet vacuums could be used when healthy, dead hard cant. Vacuums could be used regardless of exhaustion, Dead Hard has an exhaustion penalty.
"just like spirit is fine because iron will, and NOED is fine because of small game. /s
as much as I actually really like mindbreaker because it's a simple, mid-strength passive perk, and do run it, no. I don't agree"
If you refuse to use perks against mechanics that you really hate, then its pretty much on you that you still hate the mechanic. If you hate Ruin, you use maps or perks to make getting rid of totems easier. I dont mind facing Dead Hard. Never really had issues with it, even if I faced high tier survivors. I do have issues with the auto aim system aiming for survivors that arent in the center of my screen, I do have issues with survivors being able to work on 3 gens at the same time without having any penalty added to it, I do have issues with dedicated hits that are more against my favor rather than in my favor, I do have issues with medkits being as powerful as they are. But Dead Hard? I wait 1-2 seconds if they look behind themselves and then start a lunge. Lunge animation lasts longer, Lunge animation makes more distance, thus I hit survivors at the end of the Lunge. If they save it for a pallet early on, I just break the pallet and see if it's worth to keep chasing the survivor. Sometimes its better to swap targets, keep in mind that some pallets are gone and that there is an increased dangerzone. Other times its best to keep brute forcing pallet drops, making the dangerzone even bigger and maybe getting a quick down. You're thinking too much about the 1v1 of the situation, while its a 4v1, and not all survivors will be aware that pallets are gone in an area.
"again, this would make sense if dead hard activated after X amount of time in chase. currently, it just activates even for shitter blendettes that get hit for hiding in a tiny bush. that blendette isn't being rewarded for anything lol."
Again, starting a chase injured massively reduces the chase time in general. Let alone that blendettes dont really use Dead Hard well anyway.
"it's not my mistake for injuring a survivor. this makes no sense. i injure someone as pig, recover fast with stbfl (a perk that I have to actively work for in order to be effective), am back on them again, about to lunge at them at a pallet, and they dead hard and stun me. woops, outplayed. guess that was my bad that they have a dash for free."
Again, you're talking this position, when you literally have a dash that you get for holding m1. You made the mistake of not considering their perks. Besides, it's not your mistake for injuring a survivor. Its your mistake for DEDICATING to a chase you know will last much longer than you can afford. There are more than 1 survivor, that survivor just used their exhaustion perk, they are likely to keep running around the map untill they find a generator to sit in, then it takes 40 seconds from the moment they touch that generator to lose their exhaustion. In that 50-ish seconds, you could be able to down a survivor, hook them and go back to the gen you expect them to work on, to find them injured, without dead hard available meaning they are a quick down. It's your DECISION MAKING that is lacking in this situation. You have to deal with survivor perks, just as much as survivors need to deal with your perks. Dead Hard isnt breaking any games in a significant way. It's strong, yes, but not overpowered. It's annoying, yes, but not broken. You're arguing from emotion, and sorry, but individual emotion doesnt mean #########. Pretty much the entire roster of killers can deal with Dead Hard. Pig and Myers are 2 that have a few issues, but that is due to them needing some balancing love, not due to dead hard being broken.
"all of these things that you've listed are either missplays on the survivor part or outplays on the killer part. it's also a little interesting that we're comparing a little survivor perk to entire killer power capabilities."
JUST LIKE YOU DECIDING TO HIT, WHEN A SURVIVOR IS INJURED AND LOOKING BEHIND THEM TO WAIT FOR YOUR LUNGE. THAT IS YOUR MISPLAY. IF I CAN DO IT, YOU CAN TOO. IT'S NOT THAT HARD.
"the last thing I think is acceptable is being forced to run perks just to make up for bad game design. running old enduring for old DS didn't suddenly make DS ok."
I mean, kinda did, you were literally able to hit a survivor before they could reach a loop. It also applied to pallet and flashlight saves, it was pretty much a killer meta perk at the time, just as much as DS was. Both needed to change, both have been changed. Dead Hard isnt like old DS tho. I dont run exhaustion perks and can deal with DH against high tier survivors just fine. Survivors have to deal with a lot more broken ######### than DH. Huntress being able to hit hatchets because your animation is locked, Bubba being able to hit you twice while you have BT and Sprintburst on you(seriously, Sprintburst is more powerful, and we're talking Bubba being able to hit you TWICE when using Sprintburst and having the 3 second haste boost after being hit), Spirit, Nurse, Oni and Blight flicks. Having Dead Hard available is one of the few reasons many of these killers can be as powerful as they are. Without Dead Hard. Bubba would only have 2 charges, Spirit would be nerfed into the ground, Blight wouldnt get more than 3 bounces, list goes on. The entire game has been designed with perks like Dead Hard in mind. The devs have admitted such. They dont look at basekit survivor, they dont look at basekit killers. They look at what survivors have access to, and what killers have access to. Considering everything that's in the game, Dead Hard isnt even close to broken. Odds are more likely that certain killers need to be buffed to the modern Meta. Myers is from an era where Dead Hard didnt exist. Pig is from an era where her headtraps used to activate regardless if the exit gates were powered, making Dead Hard not that big of an issue for her. The traps have been nerfed, but Pig hasnt been addressed to compensate for that nerf. Both killers need to be updated to more modern standards.
"decisive strike was meta for 4 years too."
And it has changed MULTIPLE TIMES. No one really had issues with DH. DH can be counterplayed. DH is an exhaustion perk. DH requires you to be injured. Just because some survivors play builds that make them perform better when injured doesnt really mean there is an issue with DH. My biggest guess why you think DH is an issue, is because survivors can finish 3 gens at the same time. Which is the real issue here, not Dead Hard.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241556#Comment_2241556
1st - Twins can literally be in 2 places at once. At any distance. The sister at 16 meters is more dangerous than hag running 40 meters while you are crawling away.
2nd - I said "camping hag", not "hag with only these addons and not these other ones"
Addonless hag is fine, but addons exist. So you have to consider those addons too.
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@glitchboi said:
Definitely needs an add-on pass. If he gets an add-on pass and buffs (like Demo) instead of a rework, make J.Myers base-kit pls.
J.Myers being basekit is a bit too much tho, takes away a lot of play around Myers. I mean, if they keep the "only stalk 1 survivor" rule, sure, I'd agree. But they need to remove that limitation in the first place.
I rather see Jewelry being basekit, it buffs scratched mirror myers, it buffs the gaining of stalk in general(being able to move closer faster, means being able to get higher stalk rates faster), it buffs gaining stalk mid chase(you're able to walk and stalk more, rather than stalking for only 1 second due to survivor holding w), and it buffs the movementspeed addons by default. Which, if you were to use both after Jewelry being basekit, means you could use stalk to close distances, even if you're t1. Stalking movementspeed is set across all tiers. Meaning you'd move 130% movementspeed while stalking no survivors, in t1. And you'd be stalking at 100% movementspeed if you were stalking survivors, instead of the current 30% basekit movementspeed.
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@piggygooik said:
he is a pretty outdatted killer. his istadowns are nice but sometimes you cant get even get the the surv.
his early is is pretty bad with the whole 105% movement speed
his tombestone peice can be pretty OP sometimes and some of his other add ons are pointless.
how would you buff him and do you think he needs an add on pass
I've made a massive list:
First off, remove the collision Myers gets when stalking. He's the only one who still has it, and there is practically no scenario where collision is needed in his basekit. If there are any addons that make him need collisionlessness, add it to those addons instead(tombstone piece being pretty much the only one, but I want that addon gone anyway).
Secondly, and this will be an odd pick: Make the yellow addon "Jewelry" basekit. Gives him generally a better way of gaining stalk in many ways, while still having some movementspeed while stalking(note, ghostface walks faster when he stalks, AND ghostface has unlimited stalking, AND ghostface can stalk multiple survivors, AND ghostface is not collisionless while stalking, so why would Myers have all these limitations other than Tombstone Piece? Again, Tombstone Piece needs to be removed). Having faster stalking movementspeed basekit while keeping the current stalking movementspeed addons actually makes those addons worth using, right now, they barely have any decent use.
Third, remove the micro lunge myers has in t1, the big reason why Myers needed a micro lunge was due to him circumventing perks like Spinechill.
I could address all addons again, what I would rework Tombstone Piece into, other quality of life stuff etc, but these 3 changes are the biggest changes I would want to see in Myers.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2244464#Comment_2244464
Because BNPs are better than most iri add-ons.
I mean, I disagree, but pretty sure you've already seen my argument for that :P
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"You know it's tombstone if his hand is open."
Which is too late if Myers is 99%. Cant find a locker if he's behind you.
"Hag has the time to do this because her traps are ten times more lethal."
Not really, Hag has the time to do so because she has access to all her traps at the start of the game and doesnt risk being seen first. Trapper needs to walk across the map to gain traps and even then can only carry 4 at best, giving him a high chance of being seen before he even puts down a single decent trap. Most of Trappers wasted time is due to collecting traps around the map. Increase Trapper's basekit on holding traps, and he easily becomes a monster.
"About pig, nope. The survivors can hear you, and it only has a twelve meter range. That's about a 2 second distance. Having a built in slowdown is much better."
I mained pig, and Scorpionz, who is arguably the best pig main in the game, also agrees with Pig's dash being her main ability. The gen slowdown is nice, but not neccesary for a powerful pig. Amanda's letter gives you info on a loops where you can close the gap with your basekit dash and practically guarantuee a hit. Your reverse beartrap slowdown doesnt start untill you already downed 1 survivor, which, might I add, can mean you already lost 3 gens if you dont get quick hits. Quick hits>>>>>>Reverse beartrap. You dont really use beartrap addons on Pig, you tend to use addons for her dash.
"Legions power injures people and keeps them injured. Good players do this anyways, so they essentially have no power. Iridescent Button doesn't change this, and it's actually slower to break pallets with it and then suffer the frenzy stun after, then to just break it normally."
Pallets are one of the most annoying things to deal with as a killer, having an ability that allows you to close the gap while getting rid of a pallet is insane. Why do you think Nemesis being able to move in T2 after destroying a pallet is such a big deal to killers? Because you can start closing the distance. Add perks that work well against injured survivors(Thana, Blood Echo) and you have a game where gens are slowed down AND exhaustion perks being essentially worthless. Meaning Legion doesnt have to deal with pesky perks like Dead Hard, Sprintburst, Head-On, Lithe or Balanced Landing. Which significantly reduces overall chase time. Add in a lack of pallets, and the best you can do is a T&L wall against Legion. Considering survivors tend to be injured, that means they are pretty much always 1 hit away from being downed. T&L's are only really good to stay at if a survivor is still healthy or has access to exhaustion perks. Which, Blood Echo prevents. Those perks give reason for survivors to start healing, because being healed means Blood Echo wont affect them, giving Legion more value out of his power. Regardless of the situation, Legion cancels out his weakness by the use of 1 single perk. As for it being slower to break pallets, not really, I mean, if you only go for 1 single pallet, sure, it takes longer, but it also gives survivors the info that you're breaking the pallet instantly and start making distance, while after you already broke the pallet, you can use your power to stay close and go out of frenzy once you're in a deadzone(while bodyblocking them ofcourse). Legion's power requires a bit of creativity to work. He's a low C-tier killer with his current capabilities, he just needs a slight buff.
"Cleansing against Plague is only not viable if your teammates don't cleanse, and we both know they always cleanse."
At which point, Plague starts chaining Corrupt Purge and you have to deal with what's essentiallly an Assault Rifle Huntress for the remainder of the game.
"They can wake each other up at the beginning of the match and never again if they spawn close. If they don't, they already have a huge advantage to the point where they don't need to wake up."
They cant, they start the match asleep.
" you get a grab with silencing Cloth then that survivor hasn't played for more than 10 hours. It's basic gameplay to look behind you on a gen."
I mean, yeah, but even if it's not a grab, it's a hit. Any hit with Twins means she gets closer to a Victor sweep. Sure, it might not be her best addon, but I wasnt really arguing about best addons, just like BNP is by far not the best survivor addon(I'd argue Blood Amber is against most killers, if not Styptic Agent against all killers). I was just talking about how effective BNP is compared to other Iri addons. As for my personal stance on Iri addons, they either need to be very powerful to the point of not being intended to be used every match, or they need to be part of niche builds that are not intended to be used every match(like Renjiro's Glove, its not Topknot levels of power, but it's specific build is very powerful nonetheless).
"Oni can get downs far faster with his power. He gains mobility, and a good Oni can down 3 survivors with every power use. Basekit Oni is better than no power Oni."
And I agree with that, but no power Oni is a very powerful build regardless of that. If we're talking absolute best addons, they tend to be in Yellow and Greens, which is honestly quite good. Means they can be used quite often. Pig's overall best addons can be used every single game, while you cant use Pig's purple addons every single game. But that's not what I am arguing right now.
" you can get the same info with BBQ. The reason I don't like this is because it takes effect in the portal, or slightly after, I can't remember. Anyways, it takes effect AFTER you travel the map. It would be good if it did this while charging shred so you could go to the right portal."
Seriously? You missed Demo's changes? The 3 second aura reading is in effect after he leaves, but he sees aura's of all survivors during the travel aswell. Meaning if you travel 4 seconds in the portal, you have a total of 7 seconds in aura reading. As for portal killer instinct, you can use Lifeguard Whistle to permanently having that effect without having to charge shred. The reason why it would be a bit too powerful while doing if you're charging shred, is that you would gain too much info if you saw exact aura's.
"Yeah, you're hindered. He could down you faster with hindered. Just by spinning you can avoid direct bottle hits. Remember, they have to actually touch you, which is PURE LUCK."
Pure luck? Not really, his aim got fixed quite some time ago and the hitboxes are a bit more forgiving. It's relatively easy to hit bottles now.
"About iri flesh, you'll still only down one. If silencing cloth was a bubba addon, you could do more with it. If survivors pull a Senbonzakura and SCATTER, you can't hit more than one. That addon is only really amazing for camping against BT."
You do realize Bubba can outsprint a Sprintburst with 2 stacks, right? People tend to run this addon with Infectious Fright because if anyone is nearby, they tend to be within hitting range. If they dont get IF triggered, it's a free hook with 0 worries of a rescue.
"Coxcombed Clapper makes you completely silent, bell wise. However, you need to use Ghost with it, because they either see you, or you are far enough away that they hear you."
What? Ghost doesnt add anything that you need. The increased lunge from Windstorm basekit allows you to uncloak around a corner with up to 6 meters of distance between you and survivors and your lunge would be fast enough to hit a survivor. You can even uncloak fast enough to do this without Coxcombed, as survivors dont know from which direction you're coming. Coxcombed removes that 2 second warning that you would otherwise normally get. Wraith doesnt need Coxcombed in those situations to gain hits, Coxcombed just adds panic to the situation.
"Mint Rag is bad imo. I used to main Hag for like 3 months or so, and I used it a few times. I could never control where I was going. And if you have a trap next to a gen it would've been triggered by the survivor. The only way it wouldn't was if you put it out of the way, rendering it ineffective in chase."
Mint Rag isnt really used for chase tho. Hag doesnt really have any addons that make her traps better for chase. It's OUTSIDE chase where Mint Rag gets disgusting. A gen with seemingly 0 traps nearby? Free TP. On the opposite side of the map with both survivors crouching away from the basement before you normally would get there? Free TP. Add Rusty Shackles to the mix and you have pretty much global information with the ability to teleport instantly to it. If you're close enough for a regular TP, it doesnt put Mint Rag on cooldown, if you're too far for the TP, you can use Mint Rag to go there since its technically not triggered. It's absolutely disgusting.
"As for fragrant tuft of hair, yes it will take 4 gens unless they feed you. I know this because I used this addon on Myers every game for a while."
I mained Myers for months, never took me 4 gens with just Fragrant Tuft. My guess is that you were simply stalking from far away, which, if you didnt know, affects the stalk rate. If a survivor stands in front of you, you gain 0.8 points per seconds, if the survivors stands 40 meters away, you get 0.08 points per second. Outside 40 meters, you gain 0 points per second. Add on to that that you will only stalk the closest survivor(even if they are empty), never multiple survivors at once. So odds are that the reason Fragrant Tuft doesnt work out for you, is because you're standing still in the same spot even though 1 of the survivors is already empty. Giving you 0 points(even though the stalk bar goes up, notice sometimes how the stalkbar goes back 10% after it supposedly hit 100%? That's because in reality, you gained 0 points the past few seconds, Myers really needs a QoL on his ability). If I run both pinks, I can consistently get it off, without them feeding me, before the 4th gen is finished. If I only run Fragrant Tuft, I tend to get it before they finish the second gen, without them feeding it to me. The closer they are, the more stalk points they give you. Do with this info as you please, because it will definitely improve your t3 games overall.
"A lot of these arguments seem from a book smart type of knowledge about these. You know how they work, really well by the way, and you know how powerful they are, or at least how powerful they sound on paper. However, it doesn't seem like you've used these add-ons much, or even at all. How they sound on paper is usually very different from how they work. For example tombstone. If you had played against it much, you would've noticed that in t3, his hand is ALWAYS closed. However, if he has tombstone, it'll be open. That's how you tell."
I actually have used a lot of these addons, very succesfully too. Never claimed they were the best. Just that compared to BNP, they are better. As for Tombstone, whether it be Tombstone Piece or Judiths Tombstone. Yeah, you can tell by the hand, but that info is of no use when you're already dead. You can easily 99% your power, only to tap it and instakill a survivor. There is no way you can counterplay a Myers when he's behind you when he triggers T3. Once 1 survivor is dead, it doesnt really matter what happens next. 3 survivors cant fix 4 gens in time. It's why Tombstone Piece is considered the most overpowered killer addon. Judith's Tombstone is relatively fine, even including Fragrant Tuft, because it takes about 4 gens to get, and even then, you need at least 2 stacks of Play With Your Food to compensate for the movementspeed reduction. Tombstone Piece however, doesnt have a movement speed reduction. And you cant tell if it's a good Myers that knows how to stalk fast, or a mediocre Myers who doesnt know how his stalking works untill its too late and someone is already dead. The hand remains closed untill he hits T3. If there is practically 0 distance between you and Myers, it doesnt matter if you notice his hand opening up, you're already dead.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241349#Comment_2241349
Just to be clear, Mother Daughter Ring doesn't remove scratch marks. It prevents new marks from spawning while in phase. But old marks are very much visible in her power and, given the speed boost effect of the add on, survivors can barely make distance from the point where their trail ends.
I mean, essentially the same thing. But scratchmarks stop spawning the moment they start charging the phase. Add the lack of scratchmarks to the basekit, and the base speed of Spirit isnt fast enough, where survivors CAN make distance if they make the right decision, Which is kinda the point. Besides, even though the distance they would make is tiny against MD ring, it's still distance. Unless they use both Yakuyoke and MD ring, but that's a whole other discussion.
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@Khar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241626#Comment_2241626
It's not making her easier to play, you just want her to be harder to play. Even her biggest complaints have nothing to do with how she tracks survivors during her phasing, so you just want to nerf that for no good reason.
The biggest complains come because you have rank 9-skill killers reaching rank 1 because of spirit due to her scratchmarks, and then complain all other killers are unplayable in red ranks. Removing her scratchmarks will weed out bad killers using her ability to reach high ranks, and actually focus on what makes Spirit so hard to counterplay.
Let alone that one of the biggest issues, is that she can track you very easily while phasing, so yes, removing 1 of the easiest tracking mechanics in the game should make her easier to counter. It means you can run straight before she starts phasing, only to start running left or right without giving the Spirit direct information that you went left, right, or straight ahead. She could still see the environment move where you ran, but that requires there to be grass, corn or other movable environmental things to be there in the first place. She could still hear you go in one direction, but it does give a good survivor the possibility to gain distance through vanilla mechanics.
So its not without good reason.
As for her biggest complaints:
- Stridor, which relies on how she tracks survivors during phase.
- Closing the gap insanely fast, which is due to her ability to track survivors while she phases while survivors get no info. Meaning either survivors need more info, or Spirit needs less.
- Spirit being able to stand still and do absolutely nothing, which is a problem due to her tracking capability, as you cannot run away without leaving scratchmarks.
Spirits using Mother Daughter ring(and no Stridor) rarely stand still because if they use that, survivors have a chance of actually making distance and losing Spirit due to a lack of tracking. If the floors are concrete, like Lery's, sure, they will still find you, but otherwise there is a good chance they wont. Which is why they tend to phase when you're out of sight, rather than standing still and phasing around.
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@Haddix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241537#Comment_2241537
"Besides, Dead Hard is part of the game, everyone has access to it. End of discussions."
Yeah, just like how Prayer Beads was part of the game. Just like how old Omegablink was part of the game. Just like how old Tinkerer instasaw was part of the game. Just like how old Iri head was part of the game. Just like how old BNPs were part of the game. Just like how instaheals were part of the game. Just like how infinites were part of the game. Just like how old DS was part of the game. Just like how old Tinkerer instahatchet was part of the game.
All of the things above were created in a time where the developers lacked an understanding of their game's balance. NONE of these things would've been created today, with the closest thing to this stuff added in modern-day DBD being old Undying which was ######### atrocious. Dead Hard was created during this time (2016-2018) and applies to this. As it literally gives survivors an entirely new mechanic in chase that the game was not designed around (lunges are not a counter to dead hard, dead hard is a free counter to a lunge, which is complete bullshit), it would not have been added today. No risk or condition, extremely high reward.
"Mechanics that killers have access to through perks: 25% regression for free that you get for hooking(which you're supposed to do anyway)"
So...it's free, but then it's not free? Pop rewards you for a hook. I don't see the connection to Dead Hard's condition of being hit by a killer, which is the killer doing their job properly.
"Aura readings that you get for free while hooking"
No, once again, you get rewarded for a hook by BBQ. "For free for hooking" makes no sense at all. You're contradicting yourself.
"cannot be countered by VANILLA survivor mechanics: Slugging multiple survivors,"
Uh, if you don't think you can counter slugging without an anti-slug/healing perk, I'm not sure what to tell you mang. Getting mass slugged is on your team.
"camping, tunneling,"
yep, which is why I also hate camping and tunneling. should not be in the game. both things are, as I said with dead hard, available to do because they weren't prevented by the devs during a time where they lacked an understanding of their game's balance. both of these things are extremely unhealthy and require 0 skill and do not belong in an online pvp game.
"Well, with your logic: Ruin is not balanced, Pop is not balanced, Make Your Choice is not balanced, killer addons are not balanced. BBQ is not balanced."
Incorrect. Ruin rewards gen pressure and can be completely destroyed at any moment in the match. Pop rewards hooks. Make Your Choice is not a perk design I'm a fan of at all, but its effect is not as strong as Dead Hard, thus I just think it's terribly designed rather than unbalanced. However, Make Your Choice still requires you to hook, so it still has a condition that you must fulfill, and actually encourages you to target multiple survivors rather than tunnel, so I'll give it that much credit. Killer basekits are balanced around their addons, as confirmed by the developers, so that's not correct either. BBQ rewards you for getting a hook, once again, and encourages killers to not camp, which promotes very healthy gameplay.
"Lunges were BALANCED around Dead Hard when Dead Hard was released."
And that failed. Lunges do not counter Dead Hard unless it is used improperly.
"Essentially, all killers were given a basekit Dead Hard to deal with Dead Hard."
No, survivors were given a direct counter to lunges AND killer abilities through Dead Hard (by pressing a SINGLE BUTTON, nothing else. How fun is it to make 5 perfect blight rushes, go for a swing, just for them to press a button and completely undo your outplay. Crazy.), which has a massive impact on chase gameplay. You do not design a game around players not having a dodge ability, then add a dodge ability and create nothing that actually counters it. It destroys killer abilities, rewards survivors for getting INJURED (you compare this condition to getting hooks? really?), and completely breaks chases when used properly. It doesn't belong in DBD, sorry man.
"All of the things above were created in a time where the developers lacked an understanding of their game's balance."
Just like Dead Hard was able to be used mid-air FOR DISTANCE, which, mind you, is no longer possible even though killer kept that ability.
Dead Hard is fine.
"Dead Hard was created during this time (2016-2018) and applies to this."
See the previous statement, where Dead Hard has been adjusted in the following ways: The speed curve has been altered to match the animation(the animation used to finish before Dead Hard was finished, meaning Dead Hard was nerfed mechanically). Removed the distance made mid-air, also nerfing Dead Hard as Dead Harders used to be able to Dead Hard through certain windows mid-air. Windows that a lot of killers are still able to go through mid-air.
Dead Hard is fine.
"So...it's free, but then it's not free? Pop rewards you for a hook. I don't see the connection to Dead Hard's condition of being hit by a killer, which is the killer doing their job properly."
Dead Hard isnt free either, it requires you to be injured. You cannot get injured for free. You literally have to get hit by the killer to make Dead Hard work, which is part of a survivor's job. If you never get hit all game, you're most likely sandbagging your teammates. Prayer beads didnt have a cost of use, there was no penalty. Omega Blink Nurse didnt have a cost, there was no penalty. Dead Hard HAS a cost of being injured. Preferably, survivors dont want to be injured if that option arises. Survivors want to be uninjured over being injured. It's just that in quite a lot of cases, there is no time to heal up if you want to win a game, thus staying injured is more preferable.
"No, once again, you get rewarded for a hook by BBQ. "For free for hooking" makes no sense at all. You're contradicting yourself."
Just like you need to get injured as a surv to use dead hard. Dead Hard doesnt work if you're instadowned, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Bubba, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Plague with Red Vom, Dead Hard doesnt work against a killer that baits it. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Nurse. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Pig, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Wraith, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Demo unless used for side stepping quickly, Dead Hard doesnt work against Trickster, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Blight, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Doctor(you cant do anything for 2.5 seconds after each shock). Let alone that survivors are exhausted after using Dead Hard. For all intents and purposes, it's a 1 time trigger per individual hook. Which is why I compared it to Pop in the first place. Add exhaustion inducing addons or perks in the mix, and they cant even use Dead Hard. So if you consider Dead Hard to be free, even though you're an instadown at that point, I will consider Pop to be free. Being injured is sacrificing a health state for a dash that can be baited. You dont have to do anything special to trigger BBQ or Pop after hooking a survivor, it literally comes for free while you hook someone.
"Uh, if you don't think you can counter slugging without an anti-slug/healing perk, I'm not sure what to tell you mang. Getting mass slugged is on your team."
Nope, plenty of examples where mass-slugging just happens out of killer momentum being able to chain together. Nurse Infectious Fright slugfests are pretty much the most common Nurse encounter. Nothing you can do about that as a survivor. You NEED anti-slug perks to counter that, no vanilla mechanics to do so.
"yep, which is why I also hate camping and tunneling. should not be in the game. both things are, as I said with dead hard, available to do because they weren't prevented by the devs during a time where they lacked an understanding of their game's balance. both of these things are extremely unhealthy and require 0 skill and do not belong in an online pvp game."
Except that like Dead Hard, sometimes you need to camp, sometimes you need to tunnel. You cannot nerf these 3 things in the game, unless you want to nerf lunges, nerf gens to death and give all killers access to instadowns in a vanilla way. Which gives more reason to keep dead hard in the game, which gives more reason for people to find ways to rush gens, which gives more reason to camp and tunnel. You can dislike these things, that doesnt mean they're broken. Worst case scenario, you could add a punishment to them, but that doesnt really solve the issue you personally are having.
"Incorrect. Ruin rewards gen pressure and can be completely destroyed at any moment in the match. Pop rewards hooks. Make Your Choice is not a perk design I'm a fan of at all, but its effect is not as strong as Dead Hard"
Lets go back to what you stated before: "Dead Hard is not a base mechanic, thus, the game is not balanced around survivors having a powerful dash completely for free." Pop is not a base mechanic that you completely get for free. As for "rewards the use of vanilla mechanic X", let me remind you that you're not really losing a chase as a survivor for getting injured. The game is literally designed to guarantuee hits for killers. Survivors cannot remain uninjured all game as a whole. So getting hit is not "losing the chase". You "lose" a chase based on the time it takes to get a hit. Dead Hard rewards survivors for distracting the killer succesfully, not for losing a chase. Otherwise I could say that any instadown in the game rewards the killer for not being able to keep long chases. Pop punishes survivors for not succesfully finishing a gen/pushing the wrong gen. Dead Hard punishes a killer for not succesfully ending a chase/unsuccesfully baiting Dead Hard. Both can really hurt the game for the opponent if they are used in an optimal way, both are really annoying to deal with, but both can be baited quite heavily and barely have any impact if done so. I have sometimes left gens on 50% on purpose, knowing that the killer would waste his Pop on that, while I finished a gen that was at 70% 16 meters further. Sure, 20 seconds of my time were "wasted" on that 50% gen, but in exchange, another, more crucial generator was finished. Same logic can be applied to dead hard. I've forced survivors to dead hard, then leave the chase, only to come back 30 seconds later while they were distracted and working on a generator in a dead zone, without dead hard in their arsenal, they were just easy pickings.
Yes, the perk is annoying to deal with, but annoying isnt really a reason to nerf something. I rather see more exhaustion inducing perks(Mindbreaker is really nice against Dead Hard. They have to stand still or walk for 5 full seconds if they want their Dead Hard back. If they are already injured, they wont have enough time to remove their exhaustion). Preferably a hex that adds exhaustion on survivors for 90 seconds if triggered. But other than that? Exhaustion perks are fine. I'd argue that Sprintburst is far more broken than Dead Hard. Anything Dead Hard can do, Sprintburst can do better.
"Killer basekits are balanced around their addons, as confirmed by the developers, so that's not correct either." Again, my point was that because it's not a basemechanic, it's a thing they get for free just by applying it.
"And that failed. Lunges do not counter Dead Hard unless it is used improperly."
If you're touching a survivor, you can start a lunge, and still hit a dead harding survivor. So yes, I'd argue they DO counter dead hard. In the same way that Dead Hard counters a lunge. But if you're out in the open, the best Dead Hard will do is buy you 2 more seconds before you're downed. Because Dead Hard slows you down at the end. It's curve goes from 250% MS, to 200% MS, and at the end drops to 80% MS(walk speed) for a few frames. Meaning survivors need to start running again, and running itself is a speedcurve. This is why you cannot Dead Hard and speed vault a window if you dead hard too late. You need some distance to go back to 100%.
"by pressing a SINGLE BUTTON, nothing else. How fun is it to make 5 perfect blight rushes, go for a swing, just for them to press a button and completely undo your outplay. Crazy.)"
Ah, yes, as if Blight didnt close distance regardless of Dead Hard, as if Blight doesnt regain tokens back quick enough to close that distance and still get a hit. All Dead Hard does against most killers, is extend the chase with a few seconds. In the case that Dead Hard would extend the chase massively, it might not be worth to keep on chasing. Decisions are a big part of being a killer. Exhaustion remains for 40 seconds if they stop running(again, if you run Mindbreaker, they literally cannot work on a gen for 40 seconds if they want Dead Hard back), you could return within 30 seconds and catch them off-guard, in an area they didnt want to be, not having access to their perk. Just by 1 single decision you make. Imagine that, you get downed very quickly because the killer made 1 SINGLE DECISION, nothing else. How fun is it to loop a killer well into a good bait and keeping looping momentum, only for them to deny your momentum by leaving you alone for 30 seconds, making it feel safe enough to work on a gen, only for them to down you quickly while they have the upperhand.
Again, Dead Hard is fine.
"You do not design a game around players not having a dodge ability, then add a dodge ability and create nothing that actually counters it."
You do realize pallet vacuums were essentially what Dead Hard is? The game was balanced with pallet vacuums in mind. Later they removed it, because having both dead hard AND pallet vacuums was a bit too much. Dead Hard has plenty of counters. Again, Mindbreaker is your best friend.
"rewards survivors for getting INJURED (you compare this condition to getting hooks? really?)"
ahem Rewards survivors for DISTRACTING THE KILLER. Which, yes, is compared to hooks. It's part of the survivor's job to distract the killer and be chased. If being chased wasnt part of the survivors' job, there would be no looping mechanics at all.
"It destroys killer abilities"
Inconveniences killer abilities, but yes, just like all other exhaustion perks. Let alone that killer abilities tend to inconvenience survivors too. I mean, literally, try avoid getting hit during an entire chase. Seriously, try it. I doubt you'll be able to avoid getting hit at all, meaning all you can do as a survivor is lose a chase. There is no "winning" a chase if the killer keeps chasing. All there is, is distracting the killer away from your teammates.
"and completely breaks chases when used properly. It doesn't belong in DBD, sorry man."
I mean, killer abilities being used properly can completely prevent chases. Wraith can literally down you before you can loop him. Does that mean Wraith doesnt belong in DBD? Billy can bodyblock you in a corner and down you without chasing you, does that mean Billy doesnt belong in DBD either? Huntress can do damage to you across the map without ever chasing you, does that mean Huntress doesnt belong there either? Doc can prevent you from dropping pallets and vaulting windows, Trickster can use his knives to down you quickly after already hitting you, Trapper can literally down you by placing down a trap and ignoring it all game, Hag can prevent people from unhooking without mass slugging. I can go on. There are many, MANY killer mechanics in the game that are much more powerful than Dead Hard is, and much more uncounterable than Dead Hard. Yes, Dead Hard can be really annoying to deal with, but it does belong in DBD. It's been in the game for over 4 years. It has been a meta perk for 4 years. The devs definitely have balanced killers with Dead Hard in mind. They have balanced perks with dead hard in mind. They cannot balance YOUR decision to keep chasing a survivor that used Dead Hard to reach an unused area of the map. That mistake is on you. Sometimes it's best to quit a chase and interrupt other survivors and push them into area's the previous survivor has used for easy downs, rather than chasing the same survivor for another 30 seconds. If Dead Hard is one of your most hated perks, start running Mindbreaker. If you think it's so broken and needs a counter, use a perk that actively counters it. If you dont think Mindbreaker is worth a slot, you're simply agreeing that Dead Hard isnt as much as an issue as you claim it to be.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241310#Comment_2241310
Tombstone: Countered by tight loops and lockers.
Fragrant Tuft of hair: You get infinite T3 after 4 gens are done bc of how long it takes.
Iridescent stone: Should literally be basekit
Pinky Finger: A clown will take more time trying to use this than it would take him to down you normally.
Mint Rag: Does nothing special since it's hard to control where you go, and the survivor you're chasing would've triggered it anyways.
Compound 33: Nerfed into the ground to the point where it's not even good anymore.
Silencing Cloth: It's undetectable for a short amount of time. Has no effect on gameplay.
Iridescent Flesh: Only does something if everyone is close together, which shouldn't be happening in the first place.
Iridescent Queen: Does nothing. Waste of a slot.
Red Paint Brush: You have alarm clocks to wake up.
Iridescent Button: It's Legion. They're still trash even with this.
Amanda's letter: Trades more than half your power for a ######### aura reveal.
Coxcombed Clapper: Works once, then survivors pay more attention. Bone clapper is better.
Leprose Lichen: Gives you simple information. Should be green at most.
Black Incense: Does nothing if you cleanse.
Mother Daughter ring: The only good addon in this entire list of yours.
Renjiros Glove: Removes your entire power. Enough said.
"Tombstone: Countered by tight loops and lockers" I didnt even add tombstone to that list, considering Toolboxes only have 1 pink addon, I went for 1 pink addon per killer. Besides, I was talking Tombstone Piece, which, you literally cannot counter as you dont find out it's Tombstone Piece untill it's already too late.
"Fragrant Tuft of hair: You get infinite T3 after 4 gens are done bc of how long it takes." It's not that long. You can easily add addons to make it faster, let alone that the only reason it seems like an eternity is because people stalk from 30 meters distance. You want to get as close as possible, then it's active before 2 gens are done. Tuft+Tombstone takes 4 gens due to the movementspeed reduction Tombstone adds.
"Iridescent stone: Should literally be basekit" No, part of Trapper is placing down traps and resetting them. Hag can reset her traps and get 4k's just fine. Most Trapper mains rarely use iri stone because it also opens up traps on pathways that would otherwise be cutting a survivor short. Literally costing you a hit because it's basekit. If anything, Trapper would need Trap Setters and Trapper Bag basekit. Doesnt make Iri stone weak, though, as it removes a lot of time Trapper needs. Trapper is like a bit like Batman, give him enough time to prepare, and he is nearly indestructable as a killer.
"Pinky Finger: A clown will take more time trying to use this than it would take him to down you normally."
No, he wont. 1. You're hindered. 2. Hitting bottles up close isnt that hard. It's literally doing what basekit clown is already doing, except instead of needing 2 hits, you only need 1.
"Mint Rag: Does nothing special since it's hard to control where you go, and the survivor you're chasing would've triggered it anyways."
Mint Rag is extremely powerful. It allows you to teleport across the map instantly. Tinkerer triggering on a gen across the map? Teleport to the most nearby trap. Unhook happening at the basement when people crouched? Teleport there instantly. Mint Rag is disgusting. You thinking it's nothing special either means you're a killer main that never really played hag, or a mixed player that never played against a mint rag hag.
"Compound 33: Nerfed into the ground to the point where it's not even good anymore."
Except that it's only a 1.5 second stun for removing a pallet, even if you're stunned by the pallet. Normally, this would mean 2 seconds kicking and a 2.4 second stun. That's a reduction of almost 3 seconds per pallet stun. Most good blights run this because their basekit slam doesnt destroy pallets, only lethal rush does it. Let alone that a Lethal Rush pallet break takes 2.5 seconds to recover, instead of 1.5. Not only that, it slows survivors 20%, meaning that instead of a maximum of 12 meters distance, they make a maximum of 9,6 meters distance. That's 3 meters difference, which is more than enough to prevent a survivor from chaining loops. You're heavily underestimating Compound 33 if you think it's been nerfed into the ground. There's a good reason why it was nerfed in the first place.
"Silencing Cloth: It's undetectable for a short amount of time. Has no effect on gameplay."
In DBD, 2 seconds is short. Anything longer than 2 seconds can mean the difference in making a vault and not making a vault. Silencing Cloth works for 20 full seconds. That's not short. That's enough to walk to most generators and get a grab. Let alone that it has no cooldown. If it did have a cooldown, I'd agree with you.
"Iridescent Flesh: Only does something if everyone is close together, which shouldn't be happening in the first place."
Except when survivors work on the same gen, which happens a lot later in the game since there are less and less gens left, or when survivors unhook, or when survivors heal. Let alone that it fully refreshes your stacks, meaning you can make more than twice the amount of distance(and Bubba already gains distance after he used his second stack).
"Iridescent Queen: Does nothing. Waste of a slot."
Does nothing? Man, you ARE uneducated. 1. it gives survivors a charge, which equals HALF a madness state. Meaning that with only 2 global shocks, its possible to go from madness 0 to madness 3 on everyone, which normally would take 3 global shocks. Let alone that it also applies on normal shocks and triggers regardless if people are in lockers. The only requirement for it to work, is for survivors to be within 4 meters of each other. So if a survivor with Static Charge screams after passing a locker, you can easily check that locker for a freebie. It also interrupts an unhook for 2.5 seconds, meaning if someone has Static Charge and tries to go for an unhook with you behind them, you can hit them twice. Dont underestimate Iridescent Queen.
"Red Paint Brush: You have alarm clocks to wake up."
Yes, and that requires you to be off gens, go across the map. You cant just go to the nearest alarm clock to wake up, you need to go to a specific one to wake up. Sure, survivors could also wake each other up, but for everytime they do so, it will take longer and longer to the point where it's faster to just go to an alarm clock. Not having to worry about a skillcheck wake-up because you placed a ton of fake pallets, or because you placed some traps nearby, is good enough to be having an overall better effect than BNP. Which was THE POINT.
"Iridescent Button: It's Legion. They're still trash even with this."
Someone doesnt know how to play Legion. I dont really have to argue why Iri Button is amazing if you dont even understand how to use Legion's power heavily in your favor. Sure, Legion is a bit perk dependend, doesnt matter, perks are part of the game.
"Amanda's letter: Trades more than half your power for a [BAD WORD] aura reveal."
Except that aura readings are better than Jigsaw boxes unless the map is complex. Aura readings give you exact information on where a survivor is and what they are doing, which is much better than guessing their rough location, which can lead into a miss and thus an extended chase. Guarantueed hits for hook pressure is better than relying on reverse beartraps. Pig's main power is her dash, not her beartraps.
"Coxcombed Clapper: Works once, then survivors pay more attention. Bone clapper is better."
Doesnt matter, the point was in comparing killer Iri's vs survivor Iri's. Besides, Coxcombed still works quite nicely since Windstorm was made basekit. You can be far enough to not be heard by survivors, while still being able to reach them.
"Leprose Lichen: Gives you simple information. Should be green at most."
No, it gives you exact info on all survivors for quite a long duration. There is a reason why Aura reading addons are purple or pink. Aura reading gives exact information, exact information is much more helpful to killers than having more power but more guess work. Guarantueed information>>>>>>>guessed information. You can play entire games as a mere m1 killer if you have access to aura readings. It's why people want Old Freddy back. The only thing that Old Freddy needed to address was the fact that he needed to pull survivors to sleep before being able to hit them, his M2 was the only thing that needed alteration. Heck, I could argue easily that if Old Freddy could M1 survivors that werent asleep would be more powerful than reworked Freddy. Aura readings are extremely powerful.
"Black Incense: Does nothing if you cleanse."
Ah yes, cleansing against a Plague is the best thing you can do, give her that assault rifle power all game that gives her easy downs. Not cleansing at all against Plague is the best strategy, having an addon that gives Plague an amazing advantage that literally turns her downside into an upside is amazing.
"Renjiros Glove: Removes your entire power. Enough said."
Someone never played no-power oni. Sure, it removes your power, at the return of potentially infinite readings. There are quite a lot of powers that get removed from a single addon in exchange for something that could be devastating if used by the right player.
But to use your argument against BNP: Pop cancels it entirely, Ruin gets rid of BNP progression within 20 seconds. Making BNP entirely worthless.
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@Khar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241349#Comment_2241349
That's dumb, though. Footsteps and breathing are too faint. Grunts of pain are nice, but require the survivor being injured. Her tracking is fine as it is. She already can't see the survivors or bloodstains as it is, what would be the point of removing scratch marks?
Too faint? I can hear them just fine whenever I play Spirit. Get better at listening to use Spirit's very powerful ability rather than making her even easier to play. Not seeing survivors is not a downside for Spirit, never has been. Not seeing bloodstains has not been a downside for Spirit, never has been.
So again: Good Spirits dont look at scratchmarks considering they tend to use Mother Daughter ring. If getting better at Spirit means not relying on Scratchmarks and instead listen to your surroundings better, why even use Scratchmarks?
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241374#Comment_2241374
Bro its trapper.....
He's not doing anything to "Prepare" against a gen rush.....HES TRAPPER! His kit out of the gate as soon as the game starts hamstrings him with set up time. He's the most basic of basic M1 killers in the game. He doesn't have some sprint, or charge, or secondary objectives....he's Trapper. Even if he would have come in like a commando with every gen slow perk in the game, he could have saved what maybe.....30 seconds? He can't chase every survivor at the same time, and he can't be everywhere at once like nurse or spirit or hillbilly or blight. He doesn't have 1 shot downs to cut his chase time in half. He gets a trap. Thats it. He could have used Thano, and dying light sure. But in the first 30 seconds 2 gens are gone. Thats not even enough time to start your first chase considering the killer always starts a decent distance away from survivors, and usually they start you facing the opposite direction in which the survivors spawned at. He could have logically added a few seconds onto the 3rd and 4th gen popping if he manages to end a second chase quickly, and get lucky enough to quickly start a 3rd chase within that time limit. But by that time its too late. Trapper doesn't have compelling secondary objectives, once those chases are over and people are unhooked thats it. He has to aim for hook states. He doesn't have reverse bear traps, or force survivors to cleanse some disease, or sit around and mend. You could say well.....if he brings ruin that'll add a secondary objective right?
No.....Ruin can be fully in play while a gen rush is going on and you can still drop all 5 gens in record time through ruin since it doesn't slow progress. It just makes survivors commit to gens.....<----WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT A GEN RUSH TEAM WANTS TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE!
You do realize that in very high tier gameplay, pretty much all killers rely more on their m1's rather than m2's right? Bubba gets more downs if he uses M1's, Billy gets more downs if he uses M1's, Huntress will tend to get more downs with her M1's too unless the map is quite open.
The build I added was considering his traps were going to be rather useless. Note how I didnt even add addons in the build. That's because that build didnt rely on his M2. Dying Light is terrible when it comes to a genrush. Thana works because it slows down the game a bit. Ruin works because it forces at least 1 survivor off a generator. Corrupt works because it blocks 3 generators that are very likely within survivor vision. Pop works because of Ruin likely to be gone when you need it to be gone.
"But in the first 30 seconds 2 gens are gone. Thats not even enough time to start your first chase considering the killer always starts a decent distance away from survivors"
Which is why I said he should have used Corrupt Intervention. To prevent survivors from hopping on gens that are nearby. Sure, he could be unlucky, but that's an issue with RNG, not the gen rush build.
"Ruin can be fully in play while a gen rush is going on and you can still drop all 5 gens in record time through ruin since it doesn't slow progress. It just makes survivors commit to gens.....<----WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT A GEN RUSH TEAM WANTS TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE!"
If Ruin stays up, you want to keep bullying survivors off generators. Survivors cannot stay on generators that a killer is patrolling without risking injury. Thana ensures that survivors want to keep healing or get rid of Ruin. 4 stacks of Thana with Ruin is strong enough to have 5 standing gens(thus 3 gens left) and have a powerful patrol since everyone is injured. All you have to do then is decide if a chase will be short enough to down or if you need to keep patrolling.
YOU SHOULD NEVER DEDICATE TO A CHASE THAT YOU KNOW WOULD LOSE YOU THE GAME. Since everyone is injured(if Ruin is up), all you need is 1 unfortunate survivor making a mistake. So instead of chasing 1 survivor and wait for them to make a mistake, which is inefficient, you chase them off gens untill 1 of them makes a massive mistake. Heck, you could slug them instead if they refuse to go search for Ruin. A slugged survivor cannot work on gens for at least 20 seconds(if they have unbreakable), so you can literally afford to keep patrolling gens. By the time they get saved, or use Unbreakable, you only needed to patrol 3 gens while 1 gen gets regressed.
If they dont cleanse Ruin, take that chance to use Thana against them and slug, if they do cleanse Ruin, start hooking for Pop. It's not like killers cannot change strategies mid-match.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2232246#Comment_2232246
1st- twins can camp a hook a lot better, go make a thread on them. ( also on longer distances)
2nd- I can deal with a camping hag on vanilla mechanics. Maybe you are just bad at it
1st, no, twins cant. They need to be 16 meters away to switch. The only way they could "camp" a hook better is by having Victor stand next to a hook and then never switch to Victor, which damages Twins' gameplay more than it will save it. It's a nice thing for the EGC, but during the normal game, it's bad. While Hag can just place traps willy nilly without affecting her gameplay too much.
2nd, sure, if they dont bring the most disgusting hag addons, anyone could deal with them by constantly triggering traps. Doesnt mean it's not an issue.
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@Haddix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2232159#Comment_2232159
A lunge is part of the base mechanics of the game. Dead hard is not. End of discussion.
Almost all of the killers on the roster are countered by dead hard for distance - a PERK that you're given for free WHILE being injured, which means you're given the perk for losing in your chase.
A dash is something that you design the base mechanics of the game around. Dead Hard is not a base mechanic, thus, the game is not balanced around survivors having a powerful dash completely for free. It is literally impossible for Dead Hard to NOT be unbalanced.
Except that lunges used to be smaller and were movementspeed dependend. It's actually Dead Hard that made Lunges a set mechanic. So they are linked. Besides, Dead Hard is part of the game, everyone has access to it. End of discussions.
"Almost all of the killers on the roster are countered by dead hard for distance - a PERK that you're given for free WHILE being injured, which means you're given the perk for losing in your chase."
Mechanics that killers have access to through perks: 25% regression for free that you get for hooking(which you're supposed to do anyway). Aura readings that you get for free while hooking. Aura readings that you get for free when survivors do gens. Instadowns that you get for free by letting survivors unhook teammates.
Then lets add on the VANILLA mechanics that killers have access to that cannot be countered by VANILLA survivor mechanics: Slugging multiple survivors, camping, tunneling, their abilities(which, unlike survivor items, they dont need to refresh).
"It is literally impossible for Dead Hard to NOT be unbalanced."
Well, with your logic: Ruin is not balanced, Pop is not balanced, Make Your Choice is not balanced, killer addons are not balanced. BBQ is not balanced.
The game has been balanced with Dead Hard in mind. Again, Lunges were BALANCED around Dead Hard when Dead Hard was released. Do you want old lunges back? Because old lunges were not able to reach through windows or across fences.
Essentially, all killers were given a basekit Dead Hard to deal with Dead Hard.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2232247#Comment_2232247
I never get angry at my opponents for playing within the actual rules. Your imaginary honor rules are moot. I'm far more likely to get mad at my fellow Survivors for playing poorly, squatting in corners or self healing while someone dies on the hook than I am a Killer just doing/his her job. As a Killer I'm not going to get upset that Survivors are doing Generators as fast as the can. That is their job. Again, everything within the actual rules of the game is honorable and good sportsmanship. All these personal morals and morays are just that, personal standards of behavior that you are free (encouraged even) to adopt. Just don't pretend they apply to anyone but you, and that you are being anything other than obnoxious when you try to grief or shame others into playing by them.
I hope I pull you as a Survivor sometime, I truly do. I'm sure the after match salt where you explain how I have no honor will be quite amusing. For the last time, the rules of this game are transparent and clear. The only thing one has to do to be a good sport (and thus honorable) is:
- Don't cheat, either by hack or lag spike.
- Don't disconnect; if you start a game, finish it.
- Be humble in victory, and gracious in defeat.
Everything else is valid, legal, and honorable. Your personal rules apply only to you.
Again, honor rules are rules that are not set by the makers of the game, but made by the players.
Your argument that "the rules are the honor rules" is self-defeating.
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Reasons that could have made the survivor have the endurance status while being broken off hook/self unhooked normally:
- They ran Second Wind while being saved with BT
- They ran Mettle of Man
- They unhooked normally and used Styptic Agent
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@Wrathclaw88 said:
Hello PartyPeople
A bunch of guys, including me thougth we maybe have a little bit fun. We wanted to see, how fast we can get all gens done using EVERYTHING Possible to "Rush" them. So we had a few trys until we get to the Trapper. (We did SWF not KYF!!!)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JJ3RMAK1TCSY/schnellste-runde.png
So here is the timestamp - From the bottom gen 1 - 5 on top
Here is the Video for it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icfn09DA28s
The team were Dizzl-Chizzl , Lekoopa, Mpax88 and me Wrathclaw88.
So we would like to hear your opinion on this.
PS: Yes the Killer was Rank 17 (we dont make the matchmaking - but he had 2k hours of playing DBD which is Devotion 10 ~~) so he played this game before
My opinion:
You prepared for a genrush, the killer didnt prepare against a genrush, which is by far the biggest reason they lost.
I could prepare for rushing kills as a killer, and if survivors didnt prepare against rushing kills, I would get a kill before they even finish the first gen. You cannot really call something broken if the opponent didnt prepare for it.
Just to break it down:
He saw 4 toolboxes in the lobby, brought Ruin, Bitter Murmur, NOED and Make Your Choice. At least NOED made some sense here, but here's what I prefer to bring if I see 4 toolboxes in the game: Corrupt Intervention, Thanatophobia, Pop, Ruin. It delays survivors from touching gens early on, giving me space to injure survivors and chase them off gens. Meaning any toolbox progress they made will go down. Thana means gens progress slower, making Ruin hurt even more. Since they would have 1 person searching for Ruin at that point, I can dedicate to a chase for a hook, by the time I get them on a hook, 2 toolboxes are empty, 2 gens probably popped and Ruin is likely to be destroyed at that point, meaning I can use Pop instead on the last gen that wasnt regressed to 0. Considering most of them are still injured and didnt heal up(if they did heal, no more than 1 gen is popped, if they didnt heal, Thana ends up doing quite some damage to them at 3-ish stacks).
It comes down to the killer being ill-prepared. And yes, if you are not prepared against a strategy, you tend to lose. I dont really see a problem in this game. The killer was too stubborn to adapt to the information he was given in the lobby, didnt use a sacrificial ward or map offering to counter the map offering(although, map offering vs map offering is a bit broken) and just played too merciful in a game he couldnt afford to be merciful. The killer has the advantage that they do not give any information to survivors while in the lobby. This killer didnt use any of that, losing him the game.
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@Khar said:
What's she supposed to do? Completely rely on scratch marks?
I'd argue you could actually remove the scratchmarks. She moves faster than Legion, has access to her power more often than Legion and can hear survivors breathing, footsteps and grunts of pain better than Legion. Yet Legion doesnt see scratchmarks OR blood while in frenzy.
Considering Legion mains still perform fine despite the lack of blood and scratchmarks, we could easily just remove the scratchmarks from Spirit too. Spirit mains use mother daughter ring more which removes the scratchmarks anyway, so why not simply remove it from her basekit? Makes it a bit easier to counterplay Spirit while she is phasing.
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Honestly, considering a Mori is an offering instead of an addon or perk, they are perfectly fine. They have some niche uses, but overall they are meant to be more of a cosmetic end to a sacrifice, rather than being better than 90% of the perks.
Offerings should never be more powerful than perks. Otherwise, they should buff Vigo's jar of Salty Lips from 3% per offering, to 15% per offering while also affecting chests.
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I mean, if the Devs handle charms like they handle other cosmetics, Chompski will be available next year for everyone.
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People who ridicule people who dont run the meta perks, even though in a lot of cases off-meta builds will outperform meta perks.
I've had a better winrate running off-meta perks than running meta perks, simply because the vast majority of players doesnt know what the perks do. It's why I am an advocate of why Dying Light isnt really bad, since the majority of survivors underestimate it's punishment and dont really use it's weakness against you.
I agree that Dying Light is far from amazing, but due to the fact that a lot of survivors dont know how to deal with it, while they do know how to deal with Pop, Ruin, Undying and BBQ, makes Dying Light underrated.
As for survivor, by far my most favorite build to run is Deception, Dance with Me, Lithe and Quick and Quiet. It can take 3-5 chases before the killer realizes I run Deception and just use the window, at which point I just start entering lockers instead.
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@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239882#Comment_2239882
Well dude i am winning 70-80% of my survivor games when i play with my friends. But for solo? I really do not know. Sometimes i am escaping gates, sometimes i am escaping with hatch, sometimes everyone dies so fast. Solo is terrible.
Depends on what you consider a win tho. Survivor wins are really muddied and dont really have any solid experience. You cant put it on escapes, because a solo escape isnt really a win, you cant really put it on the majority of people escaping, because you could die on hook and lose a pip while 3 teammates escape. Let alone that 3 people could die and you still earn a pip.
Survivor wins are more personified than killer wins are. At least killer wins are a bit consistent. Survivor wins are all over the place.
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@Guest1567432 said:
Should have been nerfed more imo.....also BNP should go and flashlights well when I can get blinded from the side out of my fov that shouldn't happen.
The reason you can get flashlight blinded from the side, is because of lens addons. They widen the beam, while that width isnt shown inside the game. It's more an issue with in-game visuals why it feels like it shouldnt happen.
As for BNP? It's fine as it is. It's a strong addon, but compared to a lot of killer addons that are also fine(not talking tombstone piece), it's fine. Survivors deserve strong resources just as much as killers do. BNP doesnt affect killers as much as Fragrant Tuft of Hair affects Survivors, or as Iridescent Head, or Iridescent Stone, or Pinky Finger, or Mint Rag, or Compound 33, or Silencing Cloth, or Iridescent Flesh, or Iridescent Queen, or Red Paint Brush, or Iridescent Button, or Amanda's Letter, or Coxcombed Clapper, or Leprose Lichen, or Black Incense, or Mother Daughter Ring, or Renjiro's Bloody Glove.
All pink addons that are stronger or equally strong as BNP. Sure, you could argue that survivors could use multiple BNP's. But we're just talking the addon itself. I could add addon combinations that are much more impactful than 4 BNP's.
Yes, if you didnt prepare for BNP's, it will be tough to face. But guess what? So will any of the above mentioned addons. You shouldnt punish something because you were unaware of it. You're preparing a build just as much as survivors are preparing a build. If you build against survivors healing, for example, but survivors never heal, your build would be worthless. Should that mean that medkit addons need to be nerfed because you never run an anti-healing build because sometimes survivors never heal? No. It just means your preparation didnt work out.
Survivors are allowed to prepare for a genrush, just as much as killers are allowed to prepare for a 4 man slugfest.
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@Munqaxus said:
MMR would put Killers against survivors that match the Killers skill level. The matchmaking is so bad right now that Killers and survivors are getting screwed. You're getting matched with survivor death-squads or survivors are getting potatoes in their group. MMR will fix these very unfun matches.
I doubt it tho, because DBD is not really a ranked game. ELO doesnt really work in an assymettrical game. You could be the best survivor alive and not know about certain counters, meaning lower rank survivors would be able to perform better than the best survivor because they mained Doctor and know what hurts him a lot.
MMR wont really "fix" matches like that, all it will do is make sure that priority in matchmaking gets addressed. Meaning a rank 13 killer wont face a red rank squad if there are purple and red rank killers available. But it also means rank 15 survivors wont encounter a red rank killer if there are green rank killers available.
If MMR were to be implemented like you might think it will be implemented, it would mean certain players will have queues that last 30+ minutes because they are too good and no survivors/killers of their caliber are available for a lobby. Which, obviously would kinda ruin the game. So dont expect MMR to be magically fixing matches, at best, it will influence matchmaking to try to get the most favourable match but if matchmaking lasts too long, matches like death squads or potatoes will still happen.
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@lucid4444 said:
Being on a hook needs to be more interactive. Camping is a valid (and bad) strategy that you just can't get around. The problem with being tunneled or camped is that it's fcking boring. There's literally nothing that you can do and nothing that you're doing.. just sitting there waiting for a timer to go down.
Maybe when you're on a hook and a killer is near you, it charges up a bar that you can then show survivors that the killer is nearby (like kindred), or show them where all the generators are, or hex totems.. there's got to be SOMETHING to do.
This is why a lot of people want a rudimentary ping system at play. To be able to communicate things to teammates. They dont have to be as detailed as comms, but even if there are things like "killer's here" "I'm on a gen" "group up" "split up", that would be enough to give all the info you need as a survivor. Killer's here could imply camping, chasing, gen patrolling etc, while group up and split up could indicate a plethora of reasons(going for gens, going for a hook dive, going for a hatch escape, going for gates, etc, etc).
As for facecamping, I think killers actually need to get some negative BP for camping. They already get emblem punishment, and adding a 250 BP penalty in devout would actually give a reason to walk away. Sometimes camping is needed, but even if its punished slightly in emblems, they still can get 32k BP at the end of the match after camping hardcore. If a killer were to end up with 24k BP if they were to camp a full 2 minutes, they have reasons to no longer stay close to the hook.
Since lacking 8k with BBQ and Survivor Pudding/BPS means you can miss out on an additional 24k every match, that will harm the player in the long run if they want to keep using specific addons etc.
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How? A rule cannot be an honor rule, it literally is a rule. Besides, not nonsense. Go ahead, make a poll here: should you rush kills/gens regardless of the situation. The majority will answer no. Meaning the consensus is that you shouldnt. Making it a community honor role.
If you ever get pissed at your opponent rushing kills or gens, you're abiding to that honor rule.
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Yep, do you want ######### paint to compare the area that Hag can defacto camp that other killers cannot? Proving that it truly is her power being the issue? I can counter all campers with vanilla mechanics, I cant counter a camping hag unless I have access to a flashlight. Meaning, once again, her power enabling her.
It's the same reason BT was altered to no longer benefit camping stealth killers and Freddy's.